Why the Jointer Can't Do it All
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2021
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I recently published a CZcams Short on milling lumber: • How to Mill a Board | ...
The number of people who asked if I could just use the jointer to mill all sides and faces of the board was staggering. So I thought it would be a good idea to make a video explaining exactly why that won't work and why you shouldn't do it.
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Here's a link to the story I'm talking about in this video: czcams.com/video/SbPU2e_bKjQ/video.html
Thank you answering our questions
The internet has spoken, we must see you mill a block of cheese!
we need to know
Now we just have to decide what species of cheese... I vote for camembert... 🙄😏
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 too soft! Pecorino Romano
The jointer makes things flat. The planer and table saw make things parallel.
This is plain speak that I needed to solve some other tool issues.
Table saw isn't bad at making lengths flat either with a proper jig which are pretty easy to make. Definitely way harder if you need to flatten the width of the board though.
*flat and square (perpendicular).
@@ausnetting True that, but squaring a piece involves manipulating it by turning it 90° and using a flat side as a reference, something you can still do with either a table saw or a planer. Fundamentally, the jointer flattens which is what a table saw and planer can't do (without jigs of some sort).
How do the jointer and planer work differently?
That explains a lot about why my cutting board was so jacked up the first time I tried to use the jointer to clean up a bunch of rough sawn wood scraps I got for cheap. Huh. I’ve been frustrated by that ever since. Thanks.
It's going to need to be a hard cheese that is available in generous sized blocks.
I'd consider an aged cheddar, but it may crumble. Perhaps a swiss cheese, and you could stabilise the holes with an epoxy pour.
Hmm, I'd actually go the opposite direction. Swiss might gum up the tool fast like copper does to an end mill. I'd go with a very hard cheese like parmesan and then crank the tool speed and drop the feed rate and depth of cut so your making really really tiny chips. For Swiss you'd want a traditional hand planar and some good crackers to clean up the shavings
Mythbusters was able to fire smoked Gouda out of a cannon, so I bet that would be a decent option
@@res1dentcyn1c wh...what was the myth?
I suggest fontina
I'm just now getting into wood working and purchased a used Jointer and during assembly noticed I was off a whole inch. Thanks for explaining this. I thought it was user error.
Great explanation of this common misconception, I was even more happy to see that you did not attempt to fabricate a goofball idea to transform the purpose of one machine into another.
Great illustration of the pitfalls of assuming too much of one machine.
I'd love to see a video showing what the different effects you get from poor jointer setup. Nothing too drastic that would involve setting the beds out of being co-planer (helical), but maybe what happens when the outfeed is too low or too high relative to the knives and the effect each causes. Too high is kind of a non-starter, but too low causes some strange effects, at least I've managed that at times.
Probably the jointer is one of the pickiest machines to get 'just right', and the fix isn't always obvious.
Those were legit questions because I think we all wondered the same thing at some point.
This is a quick bonus video this week so no Notification Crew giveaway. We'll have our usual giveaway this Friday. See ya then!
Didn't answer if it works with cheese
Yes, but you need two people. One to joint the cheese and the other to hold their mouth open over the ejection port.
@@woodwhisperer someone needs to make a miniature jointer for only grating cheese. That could be the next billion dollar idea. Too bad Billy Mays and Ron Popeil are dead.
@@mrxmry3264 ~Actually, that should be, “fighting Ignorance with logic and cheese,” because unlike stupidity, you can fix ignorance! 👍💪✌️🤣 Cheers
U need to update your profile picture . Now I feel like the you from back in time answered these comments 😛😂
Glad you showed this! I just did a picture frame and did nothing but use the jointer on it. It was skinnier on one side and I couldn't figure out why!!!!!!!! THANKS for posting this!
Thank you for the explanation. Just saw the short and this was nice to have right after!
Haven’t finished watching this video yet… but watching the other short had me asking the same question. So thanks in advance!!
Haha the opening montage was funny. Love the clean shave look on you. Your videos are so helpful. As a beginner, it is so important to get good honest information. Thank you.
Great demonstration.
The best explanation I've ever seen 👏
Could have used this video last week. I made a very nice sepele wedge. I knew it wasn’t done but never knew why. Figured a couple passes wouldn’t hurt. Great vid and still loving this format.
That makes perfect sense man. Thank you for explaining it that way.
Well said. Great explanation. You good sir are great at explaining these topics to the masses, which is why you enjoy the success and stature you do today.
Appreciate that very much
You're an excellent teacher! The beginning was funny though...I thought it was like, "No you can't! 'Cause I said so!"
Excellent explanation!
Thanks for the explanation.
Excellent Mark - thanks
Awesome tips, dude! Thanks a lot! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
But you didn’t answer the question, “Will it work on cheese?” 🧀
a hard cheese like parmesan maybe but you might get a lot of tear out, a soft cheese like cheddar though probably would not slide across the flat surface and if it did would just be eaten up by the cutter head
@@seanthompson6720 what if it was in a hard wax casing? That might help prevent tear out.
@@MW-xv1sj but then we are just jointing wax and not the cheese
@@seanthompson6720 no problem, clean up the tear out with a microplane
That would go with the hard German bread in Cosmas Bauer's bread video.
Great explanation. Thanks.
Always wondered this and no I know. Great info.
If you only had a jointer and was being held at gunpoint until you could produce a perfect board, you could always go hand-tool style. Mill the first two reference faces, then use your calipers or marking gauge to mark the depth on the opposing faces. Then you could take partial passes on the jointer to remove the material on the opposing faces until you get right up to your gauge lines. Very silly, but could definitely be done in a pinch. Still doesn't solve the problem for super thin boards though, as you mentioned.
Great video! I always assumed you'd see the error most from the tolerance stack up in the corners (if your fence is off by a quarter degree, then that'll add with each side, like the five cut method for calibrating a crosscut sled), but I never though about the "trapezoid" problem you illustrate here.
I knew I couldn't do this, but I was having trouble deducing why! This helped a lot.
Woo! Surprise Saturday morning video. 😁
great explanation
Thank you for this video, it's agood to know.
My favorite way to taper legs for simple shaker tables is by using just a jointer. It's more time consuming than a bandsaw or table saw but it's real clean! Great video! Can use cheese on a jointer. In case anyone is curious.
Newbe here. Thanks for breaking this down so quickly and simply. Be well
Must agree. Your video really was, appropriately, over at 33 seconds. But you, being you, went on to explain the Why. Well Done! (Sounds like I’m a Real Woodworker. Actually, I’ve paid attention to you and others.)
“See season 1!” The best titled episode ever 😄
But you didn't address why you can't joint cheese!
I don't think that would be a gouda idea.
@@Kalel0042 yeah definitely nacho best tool for the job
Yeah it ain't a Swiss army knife
You'd be better off using a Monterey Jackplane
Thanks for the tip Marc. I just sold my planer.
I found this video from your top comment and this question didn’t even occur to me then I was able to answer it myself and came to figure out I was exactly correct
Thanks for the explanation to confirm that
I just figured “well if it’s uneven to start it’ll just make it uneven everywhere else”
For me it helped to imagine it as if it was tall as a building or if the deformities were more exaggerated to start with
There you’d notice the difference
It`s all becoming so clear now. I wonder if they make a jointer for the economically unfortunate. I go googoo to find out. Great video as always
Jointers come in a wide range of prices. Obviously the more you spend, the more reliable the tool becomes (to a point).
@@woodwhisperer Thank you. BTW, I came up with an easy blotch proof technique. My channel isnt about woodworking but I feel it could be a game changer. At least I think I came up with it. Full cut of dewaxed shellac. Stain as usual and wipe off and allow to dry. Now ( here comes the magical part.) Apply another VERY thin coat of stain using a paper towel lightly dipped in stain and DONT wipe off. Let dry a day or two. Any top finishing coat works with no problem. I just want to help woodworkers because I know blotching is a problem. (The key is very thin. The paper towel just barely damp with the stain and wipe on and dont wipe off) . So easy. I just use a paper towel for everything. I made a banjo out of poplar and maple and finished this way and turned out great with no problems. Stain doesnt rub off. Seems too good to be true. I hope woodworkers try it for themselves and spread the news
Thank you
It took me a while to figure out the first time I was told this, since I could imagine a way to do it that should work geometrically.
But then I figured out the part you showed at the end: referencing on the short side is both error prone and dangerous.
But then I thought: you can at least square up the other short side if you flip the board over. But no, it would be going against the grain then and likely to tear out.
thanks
Part of the learning process. I us d to think so also
Yay! My question answered!
Currently watching while I clean out and organize my single car garage workshop.
I've managed to fit a wall lumber rack, two toolboxes, a table saw, two work benches, overhead lumber storage, an air compressor, shop vac, welder, tabletop jointer, miter saw, router table, all of my tools (thank you pegboard) as well as my shopsmith.
I'm playing every mental game of tetris that I know and I still can't figure out how to get a full sized jointer in here for all the old barnwood I have.
What's the smallest full sized jointer you'd recommend? I have a ton of 2x6 and 2x8, as well as x10-12's (varying from 4-8ft) that all need milling.
Holy shit that intro comment compilation was hilarious.
That mic drop! 🎤 😂
Here for the thumbnails!
Well, you learn something everyday. Simple but it never occured to me.
i have a little crappy planer jointer and i find i just use the track saw now to get a straight edge. i think its more accurate than a low quality jointer. if i had thought more i'd have just got a better planer instead of 2 crap ones in 1 unit.
Why this needs to be explained again and again? This is the best video that explains it all, but how confused you must be not to understand it?
Good morning!
Por esa razón nunca mejor un buen handplane!
"Does this work on cheese?" 😆
Geese that jointer is gorgeous ! How much did that set you back ? .
Great simple explanation! Side note, is that one of your shirts or from someone else?
That's one of mine.
That is exactly the shape board I need can I borrow your jointer so I can make some too? … … 😂😂😂😂
Marc you are a pretty smart guy and not just because of the glasses
Hahahahahaha.
Despite the “serious” message that intro did make me laugh.
Could you do a video for people who has no access to this tools ? 🙏 any kind appreciated(hand saw only , etc )
I started a hobby of making cutting boards. I’m looking for that perfect (no gap) seam before I start my glue ups. I have a nice table saw and planer. I feel the one tool I’m missing that could give me what I’m looking for is a jointer. Any advice?
jointer, as stated by many other people, makes things flat, and is perfect for getting really good joints, so if you want perfect seams, a jointer is for you. you can also make jigs for the table saw and planer, but the table saw is limited on size and the planer jigs take forever to set up
This video could have ended at the 20 second mark and I would have loved it. 😇
2:22 try taking the board and just completely flipping it to the other side so the same face you just used to guide it with is still against the fence.
When using a jointer, which side should be put through first, the edge or face? Does grain direction matter?
The face. And grain direction does matter. This is a super old video but it should explain it. czcams.com/video/M-ZZ0dhbJYY/video.html
Wow, it took me a two full minutes to realize what was wrong with Marc. The beard is gone! Holy smokes it was so distracting. Welcome back, clean shaven Marc. Good video for those new to woodworking, though, that was a big question I had when I was new to the hobby.
So there!
If people ask that question I think you might need to do a little more in-depth explanation. The basic idea that you need a good reference surface for each side falls short. It can be a tough concept for some people. Then throw in that European jointer that becomes a planer when you convert it and run your 2S on the underside.
You warp me right round baby; right, round the error baby, I don't have the time now.
I agree with you on it’s better to go from the Jointer to the Thickness planer and tablesaw but if there is a time that you would want to or even have to have that thin side against the fence I would recommend taking a scrap piece of one by board that is two inches wide and attaching it to a piece of 2 x 4 that you lay flat on top of your board to be jointed While it’s on a flat level surface. attached with screws through the one by into the two by that would give you a block you could push hard against the fence and even down onto the table while using a proper push pad or push stick to send the board over the cutting blade.
Okay, so what about the table saw? Surely adjusting the width a bit on each run couldn't more time consuming than setting up and operating an additional 2 pieces of equipment safely, right?
It seems needlessly wasteful to buy and maintain them when you could just get a really nice table saw instead and get the same result for less money
Long back story but I am curious if you have feedback. I moved to Sweden after apprenticing in a wood shop in America, and was taught the way that you, and any other master craftsmen does it in regards to jointing and dimensioning the board with a planer. But over here, most people run 2 sides through the jointer, then the opposing 2 sides in the planer. Then the 2 previous sides that were done on the jointer. Is this unnecessary? Or are they just trying to cancel out any human error that might of happened when jointing ? Thanks if you managed to read my essay of a comment! Cheers!
I often do this to get the board thickness down to the dimension I want. It’s not good to remove wood exclusively from one face IMO; I alternate between the two faces.
Could you do all of this with just a jig saw?
Lol glad I was able to see this instead of being another comment on the other video 🤣
Nice! I'm finally here early and no giveaway. :-)
Any idea on how to get some kind of a discount on a new lower level Powermatic table saw?
Outside of their periodic sale cycle, nope.
@@woodwhisperer Thank you
Would have thought this was self evident, but apparently not from those comments.
Lol does this work with cheese? That made my morning
I'm struggling with dust collection on my 6 inch jet jointer (wish I had listened to wood talk earlier and got the 8 inch...) wasn't sure if a dust right 1250 cfm was enough for the jointer or should I look into a bigger jet or laguna 2hp stage model?
Steve, there are many factors to dust collection, for a single tool (Table saw, Jointer, Band Saw etc.) a true 650 CFM will be more than enough. The problem is, dust collector manufacturers usually rate theirs with no hoses attached and some even with no filter, so it's hard to really know what you're getting. The dust right, or Jet or Laguna with 1 1/2 HP should work fine, but PLEASE DON"T GET A BAG FILTER!!! The dust right is 30 microns, which will fill your shop with dust. Look for a filtered DC system with at least 2 micron or less. My two cents. 😎
@@toolchuck thanks. I like the price of the dust right, but I'm thinking it's not powerful enough if I wanted to run ducting vs a flex hose and moving the DC around. I wasn't sure if the 2hp laguna or jet 2 stage systems had enough real cfms to handle being ducted. I'd also have to get 220 run in my shop which isn't too much of a hurdle.
@@stenmin1234 no, no blast gates. Just running it off a small DC directly next too it. I think its too underpowered
@@stevefuller7805 Steve, I have a Jet DC-1100VX-CK, 1.5 HP 1100CFM, it has worked well on my Felder AD-530 (12" jointer/planer) by itself, or my Sawstop and CNC together. Planers tend to need more, but I also usually only operate it by itself. Be aware that the Laguna two stage claims, unless the HP ratings are off (meaning their higher than claimed and they might be, people are tripping 20amp breakers?), getting their claimed CFM is a stretch as some have stated. Anytime you use a cyclone you induce a restriction, and that's fine, but you give up CFM and it will limit ducting run length as well as running multiple machines at once. I have just bought an Oneida Super Cell to address my issues, but at $2400 +, it isn't for everyone, and it isn't the right solution for everyone's needs either. Dust collection is a pain, I wish you luck! Chuck.
@@toolchuck thanks for your help. Not sure I'm ready to spend the money for an Oneida. I would only run one tool at a time with maybe 15ft of ducting in my small shop.
Darn! First comment, no giveaway!
Another great video though! I have a test piece I used when I first started... tried milling it 100% with the jointer... boy is it wonky lookin'!
You can’t use a jointer without a planer but with some shims you can use a planer and table saw without a jointer!
And then there are those who say “can’t you just do everything on the planer” (including a certain public television woodworking show host 🙄)?
Marc, have you been lifting?
Can you combine with table saw
Yes, the table saw is often used for the second edge cut.
I'm pretty sure it does work with cheese...at least some cheeses, like parmesan. I usually like to get the cut close...and then nibble at it to get it the rest of the way.
I’m a little confused… so a jointer would work for all sides if you were cutting cheese but not wood?
Couldn't you rotate the board 180 to get the other thin edge to be 90 to the first wide edge, then run it through the planer to get the final wide edge, still saving a step and eliminating the need to adjust the planer?
Well…this just reduced my disappointment in my tabletop jointer by 90%.
Informative, but I feel it didn't really address Jason Berry's question at all.
So….it doesn’t work with cheese?
You never said if it works for cheese!
That was a great into. *just walk off, turn off lights and slam door*
😎
I love how many of the comments are about cheese
Well, does it work with cheese?
Wait, this does not work with cheese!? I’ve been using it or cheese for years. Is this why my jointer is all gummed up?
So what about milling a board with a planer only?
It can be done in a limited fashion using a planer sled, but you’d still need a way to address the edges. So a table saw, also with a sled, is a workaround.
So? Yes or no on the cheese?
My jointer can do it all - but it’s a combination jointer/planer. ;^}
I’ve seen a cheese plane but not a cheese jointer. 🤔