Ejections 010-11 - Rob Drake Ejects Trey Mancini & Brandon Hyde After Attempt to Second Out Call
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- čas přidán 20. 04. 2022
- 1B Umpire Rob Drake ejected Orioles DH Trey Mancini and manager Brandon Hyde a half-inning after Mancini was called out on A's catcher Sean Murphy's tag after overrunning first base. Report: www.closecallsports.com/2022/...
The question thus becomes whether batter-runner Mancini, after running past first base, made an attempt toward second base. Official Baseball Rule 5.09(b)(11) requires an out call if a runner: "fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If [the batter-runner] attempts to run to second they are out when tagged."
For this video analysis, we revisit a play in Washington from a prior season in which umpires did not call a runner out, though the analysis concluded they should have done so pursuant to OBR 5.09(b)(11), since the runner made an attempt to run to second base.
Related Video ("Did Billy McKinney Intend to Advance? When a Batter-Runner Loses Overrun Protection at First Base" 6/20/21): • Did Billy McKinney Int...
We analyze "attempt" and try to find a definition, locating the phrase "play or attempted play." Extracting from that language, we find that an "attempt" is a physical act, which includes, relative to the situation of a fielder chasing a runner, physically moving, and stepping, toward that runner.
Relative to the batter-runner Mancini, thus, after overrunning first base, an "attempt" toward second base would NOT include a flinch, fake, or feign, but WOULD include physical movement toward that base, such as taking a stutter step toward second base.
Although the foul line is not rules-relevant for this situation, it CAN be used as a guide to determine whether or not Mancini physically moved in any way to his left (toward second base). For instance, if a runner starts a play on the right field foul line or to the foul territory side (to the right of it) and ends the play on the left side of that line, in fair territory, one can logically surmise that the runner has physically moved closer to second base, however slightly. - Sport
This is way too technical. Might as well say you can't turn to your left if we're calling this an attempt.
A rule comment or an approved ruling on the rule would really help here.
@@AEMoreira81 IMO, I don't even think we need an AR... Common sense tells you he didn't make an attempt.
That would make too much sense. We can't have that in the rule book.
@@mae2759 when he stopped running, he took one step toward second, oops, but he's now at risk. Good call.
@@chrisbyers1102 Disagree. Way too technical.
Greg Gibson should have been the home plate umpire, that way he could motion to both players and none of this would have happened
If you are arguing that stopping just inside the baseline is an attempt to go to second, then you have to allow review of the call by instant replay. This is getting into "did the nose of the football cross the line" or "was it a forward lateral" level of precise judgement. You are removing intent from the play and reducing it to physical location of the runner before and after.
I don't consider this an attempt. I mean look at his toes. He doesn't even make a full turn towards second (7:33). It was more of a sideways gallop with his toes still facing down the right field line the entire time. Only when he turned to go back towards first base (and he turned to his left), did his feet face towards second base. I certainly UNDERSTAND the call being made, but I definitely do not agree with it.
Bad call by the umpire.
I remember back in my little league years all thru HS, coaches always turn right when running past 1st base.
Greg Gibson, the home plate umpire, is now a crew chief? Let's go
I don’t see it. I don’t think he should’ve been out.
As the rule states, I don't see any "attempt" to go to 2nd base.
The umpire missed this one. Obviously human error comes into play but there was no move towards second at all.
100% the correct call. Mancini flinches before he turns toward second base and does that little hop toward second base. You can see Mancini think about going to second base (through his body language) the second he looks over his shoulder and sees the ball rolling away.
Then Mancini tries to play it off by doing a little hop in his step as he turns infield.
I reiterate..... the "attempt" toward 2B was BEFORE he did the little jump. The "attempt" was like a millisecond after he looked over his shoulder at the ball..
@@billyfraiser6298 The little flinch was in no way an attempt to run to second. This isnt a balk rule.
@@billyfraiser6298 I regularly am riding my bicycle and look over my shoulder to see how far back my wife is. Most of the time I end up veering slightly one way or the other because of how the human body perceives motion. However, I am not making an attempt to turn - in fact I'm making an attempt to NOT turn. Mancini's move seems exactly like that, he was going perfectly straight, until he looked over his shoulder.
@@FAB_GNC When you run past first base, you have to turn around to get back to the base. It shouldn't matter what direction you turn. Turning should NOT be part of the equation, making a NOTICIBLE move TOWARDS second base is what should be the criteria.
@@FAB_GNC I guess you have to run backwards to go back to second
If you're a MLB umpire then you can make this call but if you're not then don't try this unless it's clear and obvious (this isn't). But again you can see the 1B coach trying to get him back to 1st base he knew something might be up
agree. the first base coach pointing at the bag gives me indication that he thinks it could be interpreted as an attempt which probably gave more confidence in RD's to make this interpretation of an attempt
Watch the video but only look at the ump. He was wanting the whole time to call him on it. You can see it from the time he touches 1b. He knew he was going to call it before it even happend. Umpire is trash.
@@adamlarue2131 Obviously, because the umpire was watching to make sure that if he was tagged he was gonna be called out. Calls like this aren’t fun when they’re called against you, but sometimes that’s just part of the game. Plus I bet he’s been taught the entire time he’s been playing baseball to avoid this by making it abundantly clear that he isn’t moving even an inch towards 2nd while standing in fair territory…
@@domi69ify When you run past first base, you have to turn around to get back to the base. It shouldn't matter what direction you turn. Turning should NOT be part of the equation, making a NOTICIBLE move TOWARDS second base is what should be the criteria.
@@Joe_Okey Everything you wrote is exactly what umpires are taught. It does not matter which way the runner turns and a noticeable move towards second base is the criterion.
To me, it looked like he was simply looking back, and was slowing down, which caused his feet to move to, more or less, towards 2nd Base, but he wasn't "making an attempt", so I'm against the Ump on that call. Then later, when he got ejected, while I admittedly couldn't hear it, it seems to me that they were simply looking at the replay, and deciding the Ump got it wrong, but not making a big production or spectible about it.
Then, the Ump "listened in" to the dugout, heard them disagreeing with him/saying he got it wrong, amongst themselves, "got his feelings hurt", and ejected him, followed by him being openly expressive towards him, which we saw in the video. So, the lesson seems to be, that you can't even disagree with the Umps in the Oakland Dugouts, or else you risk being thrown out, even if you aren't being expressive in your discontent, "for arguing", via looking at a video replay of the call.
Usually, I at least understand where the call comes from, even if I have an issue with it, but here, it seems like the Ump made a bad call, then doubled down on it, by throwing out the player, when he was talking to his teammates in the dugout, while watching a video replay of it.
when a player says fuck you it's terrible, the umpire is not sensitive
@@taxisaint-jean392 If he was saying that before he got ejected, that is grounds for ejection. If, on the other hand, he was saying that after he got ejected, then while it's not good by the player, he's reacting to the Ump's actions. That doesn't making it right, but I already "separated" the player's actions into "before the ejection" and "after the ejection", and was very clear that I only saw the video, so I didn't hear if he said anything, loudly, (such as shouting towards the Ump) before the ejection, or if, as I am admittedly assuming, he was simply talking to his teammates, about the bad call, which "hurt the Ump's feelings".
The 1B coach recognized as much. Notice how he does’t argue this call at all!
Don't allow judgement to be misinterpreted. Just turn to the right. If something happens you can still make an attempt to 2nd. Just don't give yourself up solely based on the distance you overran past 1st base.
There’s so many players who turn to the left
And nothing happens
So if you’re gonna make a judgement call then keep it consistent
And also don’t just have it against one team
That is easier said than done in practice as momentum is hard to handle, those bases are really hard (injuries happen on them every year) and you also have to be ready for an actual throwing error that does let you get a free base.
@@Redpoppy80 true but they why we have that thinge thing called practice.
@@lucidstrikerx7180 Turning left is not the problem, the subjective judgment of the umpire is what you should be addressing.
I think this is one of those rules where it needs to be clearer. It puts the umpires in a bad spot because obviously the offending team will interpret it as loosely as possible to benefit themnin that situation and be angry if you don't agreem. there needs to be something more black and white, like guidelines that crossing the foul line or taking a step veering towards second do count as a turn, and that players have to keep in more of a straight line, or something. Its a tough one.
it was just a garbage call
How about, just don’t be a jerk? Ump was a jerk. There was zero intention of continuing to second base.
You're entirely correct. The rule should just be stated plainly as turning left versus right to remove all ambiguity. It puts the umps in a terrible position, where obviously the offending team will disagree about intent.
If that happens, they need to rewrite the rulebook in its entirety IOT eliminate all loopholes in said book.
Greg Gibson, the third base umpire, motioning to the orioles manager...
Curious why the 1st base coach was pointing at 1st base after he "crossed the line"?
Look at the 1B Coach. He saw it and immediately was pointing to the bag trying to urge him back without yelling at him. Put up no argument either which is a sign he begrudgingly agreed. Usually they’re the first coach yelling at the umpire. Had he turned in towards The 1B dugout I think you could use that to say it wasn’t an attempt.
This has to be one of those calls where, if you don't have zero tolerance for it, there's always going to be room for interpretation and arguments. They should clarify things in the text - perhaps a "bona fide attempt to advance past the last base reached" definition.
Most shocking thing about this video is the fact Hyde is still managing this team.
Maybe not for the next game or so, considering the bump.
I don’t know exactly what you want the manager to do with this god awful roster.
I agree. I respect the Hyde man.
The orioles need a better team
@@StrivingTowardsWhatIsAhead not hydes fault
Great heads up by the catcher
It looks like a bad call. But, keep an eye on the 1st base coach. The coach saw what the runner did and pointed to the base the entire time until the runner was tagged out.
Exactly. That was my first thought. The runner made a move questionable enough that the coach immediately picked up on it but the runner ignored him.
This ☝️. If your coach is telling you to get back on the base maybe you should hustle back instead of walking back.
Nope, watch it again, the coach pointed toward 1st BEFORE Mancini made the turn, so he wasn't reacting to what the runner did. Unless, of course, he is clairvoyant.
@@glennkraft dude, watch the slow mo replay...the first base coach is clearly pointing at the bag, telling him to get back. 1:46
@@deputyduffy Um, did you even read what I wrote? I explicitly acknowledged that the coach pointed toward 1st. The catch is that he pointed toward 1st BEFORE Mancini made the turn, so he wasn't reacting to what the runner did, he was simply giving instructions to return to the bag. By even mentioning the actions of the 1st base coach as a reason for defending the call, you have shown you are allowing the actions of the 3rd party to influence what you see.
Always turn right and come back to the bag. Never turn left. The commentator’s explanation is correct.
If I could rewrite the rules to make them more easy to call, I would make it that a batter/runner must stay in the running lane all the way through first base, which is situated partially in foul territory, and past. Stepping into fair territory makes the batter/runner eligible for a tag out after passing first base. Immunity only exists in foul territory. Sure, it would mean that runners better get their ass back to first base if they start to advance and change their mind, just like the other bases.
First base coach was telling him to get on the damned base. For a reason. Guys that have played that long have seen it called so many different ways at different levels. So get on the damned bag Mancini instead of slow walking it back to the base and seeing what happens THIS time.
They make the language of the law vague like that so that umpires can use discretion and weed out obvious examples of not going to 2nd base. Unfortunately, umpires often use that discretion and take things WAY too literally and we get the above result. MLB should just add a 2nd base at 1st for the runner to run through in foul territory. Would solve about 10 different controversial rules.
"wHaT iS tHiS, sOmE pAnSy GiRlY sOfTbAlL lEaGuE?"
It's amazing how many Neanderthals want any excuse to go after an umpire. They don't even think about whether the rules are the problem.
This is a hard one. I can see why Drake may have thought this was an attempt, because he does make a slight motion towards second. My father even said, in a situation like this where a call has not yet been made, you better hustle back to first unless you are intend to advance.
Yeah, I love Trey Mancini, think he's a class player, but he should have played it safe and gotten back to the bag immediately, just in case. Shame. But I think a bad call by the ump.
No attempt to go to 2nd. Poor call by the umpire which hopefully gets addressed by the league. The ejection while it is provoked by the mistake is warranted due to the language used toward the umpire.
The language came AFTER the ejection.
I can see how the first call (shown at the start and end) of this video could go either way.
I cringed when I saw the segment at 5:27 (from another game) where I disagree with the first base umpire's safe call.
As an umpire (nowhere near the caliber of these umps, I admit), I would not have called this out. I don't see an actual attempt toward second. I see a glance over his shoulder and then a nearly simultaneous reorientation and stop.
It appears to me that he's trying to stop his momentum while also turning to watch the ball, which results in a slight move toward second, but to call that an attempt . . . I'd lean toward "know which end of the stick to grab" (i.e. not the shitty one)
When you run past first base, you have to turn around to get back to the base. It shouldn't matter what direction you turn. Turning should NOT be part of the equation, making a NOTICIBLE move TOWARDS second base is what should be the criteria. Your old example that you used here is perfect for showing a NOTICIBLE move towards second base, this play was NOT.
Literally just had this while umping a little league game. I wanted to tell the coach “he could run through first base all the way to the foul pole and run to the opposite foul pole and come back; the rule is you have to make a CONVINCING ATTEMPT to go to SECOND!”
@@ST3Di03 You are wrong on what you told the coach. The rule says a runner is out if he fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base.
If he runs all the way to the foul pole, I am calling him out.
If you look at his feet they turned towards second base which can be construed as a possible intent to advance. But Mancini had all of foul territory to turn to stop, so can go either way.
*So if the batter running past 1B looks towards 2B that is considered an attempt to run in that direction even though he is walking back to 1B but is tagged prior to his foot touching first?*
More like he took a step toward 2nd base. Teams should train players…always turn right unless you’re actually advancing to second.
Yeah... I think Mancini was fine and should not have lost protection. A FLINCH is not an attempt. I would argue a step is which Mancini did not do and MLB needs a blanket reviewable code that makes all niche cases reviewable and if an out can be recorded it needs to be challengeable. I mean teams only get one challenge a game if the review doesn't go your way and that is not enough as is. The 2022 SF Giants certainly don't have any love for the review system with how lopsided they go against them this year.
Almost thirty years ago, I did some umpiring for little league softball and had to make this call. In my case, however, the girl turned toward second and actually took a step and a half before returning to the base, when she was tagged out (had some irate parents too, before I explained to the coach and he settled them down). Mancini's jump in place and left hand turn around in no way constitutes a move to second.
For those pointing out the first base coach reaction, watch the play carefully. The first base coach started gesturing back to first AS he was turning, not after. He wasn't reacting to a potential move to second, but simply telling his player not to go when he saw the position of the ball.
Ironic that Billy McKinney, the runner from the Mets game used as an example, was also the batter when Mancini was ejected.
Awful call by Drake. And supporting it is almost as indefensible as the call itself.
The little shuffle to second is the only thing you could say was an attempt
Boneheaded play by mancini.
He should’ve seen the catcher running to the bag and got back. Never trust the ump.
Drake kicked the crap out of this call. That was not an attempt at any level of baseball.
He didn’t attempt to go to second. There is no way of defending that call. I don’t care how many rules you read, common sense is what is needed for umpires. I have an idea though. There should be a rule that if both coaches get together and agree that an umpire is not having a good game that ump should be replaced with a backup umpire.
Horrible call, completely missed the interpretation
Would it possibly be helpful for MLB to amend this rule, so that when the umpire has decided - per his discretion - that the batter/runner has lost his overrun protection, he makes some sort of signal and/or verbal warning? That way, even if he disagrees with the call, the runner knows he'd better high-tail it back to 1st base.
I’m shocked you didn’t find anything wrong with the umpiring… weird
Always sides with the umps. No matter what.
@@anonymouscommenter7689 You don't know wtf you are talking about. If you watch CCS regularly, you would know they often call out umpire mistakes.
This rule needs to be fixed. Lindsay is correct that the 1B umpire was technically correct. however there have been more obvious turns towards 2nd that were ruled safe. This is still a judgement call on the individual to interpret a move towards 2nd. I think in this case, blue could have been more relaxed.
In the second one the umpire didn’t see the move toward 2nd. He looked to see the batter-runner turn to the right.
If 99% of the viewing public will believe the call was wrong even after explanation then either the call was wrong or the rule needs to be rewritten.
Best comment I’ve read so far
It doesn’t matter what the viewing public thinks. That’s what’s called mob rule. If you’re going to take an unofficial poll at least ask people that umpire for a living. In this case, the call was right. It wasn’t some Hail Mary attempt by a single player on the other team to try to get a call. Both the first base coach and multiple players on the other team realize what the runner it done. However the rule definitely needs to be rewritten to be more specific.
Not an attempt..... Nothing better than sitting at a ball game and listening to a parent yell tag the runner when they don’t turn right. I was coaching a game that we lost on a play just like this. One of this rules no one seems to know. Really love the coaches who force their players to peel off tot he right.
This is a tough one that takes split second judgment.. I would say it doesn’t help that Rob Drak was so close to Mancini when the two-three steps slightly to the left occurred. Being that close, it probably made the small steps feel more exaggerated and probably swayed the judgment.
split second judgement? he had the entire time from when Mancini passed first base to when Murphy tagged him to make up his mind
@@Seanster_94 his decision is already made by then. His decision happened when he saw the two steps. He wasn't thinking about it while Mancini was walking back to the bag. At that point it is "okay I think he tried to go to second, now I have to watch for a tag or if he gets back to the bag". He cannot reply what he saw in his head over and over in the 3 seconds Mancini is walking back to the bag. And as umpires, we should never do that because the more you think about and do that, the more your mind will fill in the gaps and sway your initial judgment sometimes for good but also sometimes for bad
@@kendalhale2589 what a load of bullshit I just read....yes if you have extra time to really think about your call, you think about it and make sure you get it right, that's not a luxury umpires get in most plays
Its a terrible call, there was no step towards second as some are stating in the comments, there was no attempt to move up to 2nd, there was no fake out to move up to 2nd. Idk what Drake was thinking but that kind of call is against the spirit of the game imo
Bad call. No person in their right mind can call this an attempt.
I'd like to see umpires have permanent positions and not rotate. Leave the best strike callers behind the plate, leave the best 1b 3b etc guys at their bases. It creates a known and equal quantity during the season
To me you have to factor in their momentum to know their intent.
Rob drake was wrong on this one
He never made an attempt. Bad call.
Both were bad calls. In the other video the umpire missed it because he was watching the ball and has his back to the batter-runner. He didn’t see the move toward second. When he did look the batter-runner was clearly moving back toward the foul line and first. That non-call was more egregious because the batter-runner clearly did make an attempt toward second, and at the same time is more easily understandable because the ump literally didn’t see it.
In today’s video it’s extremely iffy as to whether an attempt was made and the ump did have a good look at it. This one is a closer call, but less forgivable since the ump saw the whole thing.
You are incorrect. Hamari did not use proper use of eyes and that’s way worse than poor judgment. A good umpire knows his responsibilities and carries them out competently. The overthrow of first base is the responsibility of the plate umpire. Hamari did not do his job and watch the batter- runner. He had no business watching the ball.
I played ball through college and you can turn to come back to bag ANYWAY YOU WANT. This ump made it to the majors?
It looked to me like mancini turned to look at second base in case nobody was covering the bag. It was a quick look. But he knew where the ball was and as soon as he saw second covered he walked back to first
That lazy wandering back on Mancini's part... He thought he was safe but still. The O's are still the same wreckage as last year.
"That is what the rulebook wants to be judged as an attempt"
That quote is what I find wrong with the commentary in these videos and many comments on this page. The rulebook doesn't want anything...this is no more an attempt to go to second base than it is for a pedestrian to take a step off the curb to safely look both ways before deciding NOT to cross the street. The confirmation bias in here is too strong towards blindly following officials and not strong enough towards using common sense when interpreting rules.
Bullshit. C.C.S. criticizes umpires routinely. Humans learn by failing. Failure is a blessing. Failure is valuable. Many of the lessons learned on this channel are taught by viewing umpire blown calls. A video posted today showed umpire Brian O’Nora blowing a call. You are a bullshitter.
I disagree the rule isn't technical at all. It's very vague and open to interpretation. Technical is saying the speed limit is 65, you were going 67 therefore you get a ticket. Vague is saying you're driving too fast for the conditions.
In today's case that's a umpire that wants to make a call. In today's case it was a terrible call. I don't blame the runner or the coach for being pissed off about it. I would too. Just like you would be if you were driving 67 in a 65, or you were driving 55 and the cop felt it was unsafe.
Dude are you lonely? Just do your effin job stop trying to look like a hero on TV.
His name is not “ dude.”
I see what you mean by letter of the law, but I don't think that was intent.
yeah...that was a pretty weak "attempt to go to second"
This is a tough one. Mancini definitely... "prepared" his body to go to 2nd. He didn't naturally come to a stop or stroll, he definitely prepared to swing his momentum to 2nd base. Now, is "preparing" but not actually "advancing" considered "attempting"? Final judgment would be no, Mancini didn't attempt to go to 2nd. I think the key here is 1) Mancini clearly quits his run before he reaches the base and then all of a sudden perks up 2) the ump is looking at Trey the entire time who is definitely scouting the ball and sizing up his attempt and then he does what the ump percieves as a "juke" of sorts or whatever. Ump going a bit too galaxy-brain here and just made it simple.
Why is it okay for a umpire to touch a player..if it doesn’t work the other way
Watch the Earl Weaver ejection by Bill Halley whenEarl claims he was poked
This is a bad call he was not tagged the catcher stepped on 1st base and called out look at 2012
Mancini is already heading back to first well before the ball is even picked up.
irrelevant
Regardless of the wording of the rule, it is impossible for both of these calls to be correct.
I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that calling the Mets runner safe was the correct call. And I'm a Mets fan. This more recent call was a little (or a lot) cheap and we can disagree with the ump's interpretation, but we can see what he was looking at. And as others have said, the runner's move was questionable enough that his first base coach immediately saw it and tried to get him back to the bag, but the runner ignored him.
Yeah there is no justification lets just face it the call was terrible and wrong.
Over umpiring at it worst. There was no attempt by Mancini at all
All baseball players need to turn into Derrick zoolander to be called safe at 1st base. Breaking news.
Ha. "That voice." Funny.
that is clearly No attempt to go to second base....this was a really bad call. Having umpired for 15 years I can tall you is is a bad call. Now the other baseball clip where the runner takes two steps, even though it is slight, he made an attempt to go to second.
6:31 "Turning to the left or turning to the right has nothing to do with the rule." Except when an umpire says it does.
Therefore, the way a batter-runner turns is not a "myth" about the rule. It is one criterion for umpire judgment.
How can a RULE book also include umpire JUDGEMENT? You can argue one and not the other. Here's the rule. If it isn't followed for random reasons we should've predicted before it was made a rule then..........it's up to guy on the field. And his Opinion you can't argue.
Exactly. No subjectivity based anything can or should make an objective irreversible call.
@@mbdg6810 batter interference is a subjective call. A check swing is a subjective call. Voluntary release of a caught ball is subjective. An infield fly is subjective. The strike zone is subjective because the rule book is interpreted by individuals.
yeah that's happened b4 the runner looked like he turned or came back and was in out..out came the mgr..gotta redo the rule
Mancini steps back into foul territory at 1:55, which shows he had no interest whatsoever in advancing to second. He's one of the Orioles' slowest runners, but at the same time, he's a smart baserunner and wouldn't have had the intention of taking second enter his mind for even a nanosecond. MLB should fine Drake for that clown call.
That's ridiculous. So as long as I get back to foul territory before I'm tagged, it doesn't count? What is this, cricket?
Mancini was an idiot on this play. We're taught to turn right instead of left in fricking tee ball.
@@closethockeyfan5284 You missed my point. I mentioned him taking a step backward into foul territory because that's in the opposite direction from second base. It's indicative of the fact that his only intention was to return to first base. (If he was an idiot, as you so uncharitably characterize him, he would have bolted towards second base, after which he would have been rightly called out when tagged.)
Yes, I know that in tee-ball and other youth leagues, players are taught to turn left, but that's mainly because they're too young to grasp all of the nuances of the game. And is that even a rule, or just standard coaching the very young?
Here, we're talking about MLB rules *[see 5.09(b)(4) & 5.09(b)(11)]* and there is not one word in them that says a runner cannot turn left to return to the bag. The dispute is whether Trey made a "jab step" towards second, indicating he was thinking about going to there. If that's the case he can be tagged out uf he doesn't get back to first or over to second in time.
Drake over-interpreted, seeing a phantom jab step when in reality there was none. Mancini had zero thought of trying to advance when the ball was nearby the catcher; had he tried to take second,, then he _would_ have been an idiot.
@@Galantski If you look through the comments, there are enough people in each camp on this call to prove the rule is the problem. If it's cut and dry about where the player turns or steps, then there is no consternation about judging intent.
If Mancini looked at this from an objective perspective, he would recognize there's potential for his action to be interpreted as a move toward second--which it objectively was--with his fate left up to the umpire's interpretation of that step. Again, looking at the comments here, that call could have gone either way. A smart baserunner doesn't take that for granted and instead hustles back to the base or turns right--neither of which Mancini did. I admit idiot was too harsh, but he was foolish for those reasons on this play.
We're taught from 5 years old through high school to turn right *not* because it's too complex to explain, but because that assures the umpire has no grounds to interpret our running as an attempt toward second. Just like pitchers are taught not to twitch or flinch because it could be judged a balk. Just like catchers are taught not to put their glove forward because it could be judged catcher interference.
@@closethockeyfan5284 Well, it's a judgment call for Drake. While I don't think Trey had any intention of going to second, it may be analogous to the occasions when a pitcher gets called for a balk without intending to deceive the batter (not coming to a full set, a slight shoulder twitch, etc.).
Last year there was a similar play to the one with Mancini in which Christian Yelich was called out at first, his is slightly clearer even though at one point he turns towards foul territory, It looks like he leans towards second, but never steps that way.
czcams.com/video/zBSh39fYRq8/video.html
Nit-picking in both cases by the umps, but I can see it from that side now, too. The intention to head to second doesn't need to be there, only a movement in that direction. If that's correct, a batter could stumble while crossing first bass, and if the fall or subsequent getting to his feet causes him to unintentionally move slightly towards second he can be tagged out if the umpire deem him to have been making a baseball move.
@@Galantski And that last part is the key: A case like stumbling and falling on one's face would be pretty absurd to call a baseball move.
Good chat, thanks. I am glad we turned this thread around from my poor start. 👍
This is Manfred going after the league best Orioles.
There was no attempt. Another horrible call. These umpires need to held accountable for rules knowledge.
Umpires know the rule. The disagreement here is Drake's judgment.
Couldn't you make the case that Mancini was only trying to avoid Drake and that was the initial kinda gotta get out of the way move?? He was looking over his shoulder at the ball and didn't realize how close he was to Drake when he turned to look forward and when he did he made a move to avoid him....Just saying.
You really cant he wasnt that close.
@@jaimep3432 Little over an arm's length after a run..... 27 seconds into video
The worst part is the inconsistency. The Mets play at the end was egregious. I think the Mancini call was correct.
This is pretty similar to the Yelich play last year against the Reds. czcams.com/video/zBSh39fYRq8/video.html I would say though that Yelich made more of an attempt toward second while Mancini looked like more of a turn around back to first. Bad call imo.
NOT AN ATTEMPT
horrible call by the ump on the "attempt for 2nd" absolutely unnecessary. good strike on the first clip. mancini had a right to be mad, but then gets ejected for rightfully being angry at a BS call
Sometimes, some umpires can be pathetic with their “power”. Some people shouldn’t be cops, politicians, or umpires/referees……..we don’t watch games to see umpires.
The umpires should have to explain calls like this. These calls would nearly immediately stop.
No, the MLB needs to explain why its rules hang umps out to dry like this. That's the real problem.
This call is absolute BS. Sometimes runners' momentum will take them ever so slightly to the left, it's in no way an attempt at 2nd! If he attempted to go to 2nd, he sure as heck wouldn't have non chalantly walked back to first. It's just so blatantly obvious. These umpires need to learn what an attempt at 2nd is and to learn common sense, oml. This happened with Yelich too..
I think the announcer had it right on this one. He saw the ball and the catcher before his "attempt" and if he even thought about going to second on that one he needs to be sent down.
When you run past first base, you have to turn around to get back to the base. It shouldn't matter what direction you turn. Turning should NOT be part of the equation, making a NOTICIBLE move towards second base is what should be the criteria.
Doesn't do any good for you to quote rules because the umpires do not always follow them
What an insipid opinion.
You’re ejected!! Don’t come back at the game again!
Both "turn to second" calls were wrong, imo.
I can definitely see why the call was made, he was setting up to continue the run to second but decided against it. Not sure if it was enough to call an attempt it's probably either way here.
I also find it interesting though that the first base coach also saw the hop step as a potential attempt and gestures to the base and addresses the player, yet is not listened to and thus the out occurs...
And then the manager and player both get thrown out for arguing it when their own coach recognised it would happen? That's pretty dumb of them.
Watch the play carefully. The first base coach started gesturing back to first AS he was turning. He wasn't reacting to a potential move to second, but telling his player not to go.
Lindsey with the Civil War Pun.
Also caught that, although I believe you meant "cival war". (Which led to the greatest comment ever, about how the misspelling was on brand, given it only had one "eye").
@@raf42 stupid auto correct
Ouch. You know it's bad when the opposing team's fans don't like the call. I suppose we're going to see a revision of this rule sometime in the near future.
It wasn't just the Ump that felt he made a move - his own first base coach saw it and was pointing for him to get back to the bag.
Watch the play carefully. The first base coach started gesturing back to first AS he was turning. He wasn't reacting to a potential move to second, but telling his player not to go.
@@markp7262 LOL - if he thought he hadn't made a move, why did he continue to point the entire time?????
This is proof that umpires need more direction and less discretion. It needs to be reviewable, screw "time management" get the call right, not well he thought crap.
Rob. Man. NO way.
It’s a good thing the ump screw up when it was two shitty teams playing. If this was padres vs dodgers that umpires name would be getting smeared all over the internet
Terrible call! No attempt Mancini saw the play spun the opposite way naturally your momentum is going to slightly turn you towards the way you turn. Umpire has no business making that call!
That's not an attempt
Fact: First base is in fair territory.
Logic: The batter-runner has to step into fair territory to touch first base. If any part of batter-runner’s body (especially either foot) remains within a base’s width of the first base line, it can be safely assumed that the batter-runner has not made an attempt to take second base!
They should have let the fans at the game vote on this one. All 326 of them.