Volley Like a Doubles Player (No.1 Rohan Bopanna) - Not Roger Federer | Before & After Tennis
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- čas přidán 26. 05. 2024
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Technique should be based on logic and physics-not hero worship. Roger Federer's backhand volley is inefficient because of how much work he has to do to get his racket into contact. The better technical model for club and recreational players to follow is to emulate doubles players-players who make a living off approaching and being competent at the net. Make volleying easier for yourself by learning to set the strings to the target and stepping and pushing at the same time.
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00:00 Bopanna vs Federer
00:50 Intro and Inspiration
02:21 Comment No.1
02:36 Comment No.2
03:46 Federer Backhand Volley Analysis
06:52 Bopanna vs Federer Backhand Volley Comparison
10:07 Heliovaara vs Federer Backhand Volley Comparison
11:40 Make it Easier for Yourself
12:27 Summary
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Thank you so much to @topspintennis for being kind enough to allow me to use his footage of Roger Federer volleying. Please check out and subscribe to his channel if you are a fan of tennis! - Sport
Thanks for watching! If you'd rather read a short summary of the key concepts covered in this video, you can find that here: www.beforeandaftertennis.com/blog/volley-like-a-doubles-player-no-1-rohan-bopanna-not-roger-federer
Bopanna's volley is born out of his doubles play where there is a lot more rapid exchanges at the net so he can't afford a longer swing. Roger composes points with players that tend to be on the baseline most the time and he approaches the net using an approach volley where he has more time and need to slice the ball and set it where he needs to set. Roger has blocking volleys when he needed them. in hot exchanges Roger is not taking a swing like he does in a warm up. His volley is graceful becuase he is using the swing to penetrate with depth or sometime chopping a sharp angled shot. Comparing apples and oranges especially looking at a warm up volley. hes warming up what he uses from mid / forecourt.
Just wanted to comment exactly the same.
Exactly, there is not a single "Federer volley" (or anyone's volley); the longer backswing is a result of the time that he instinctively assesses that he has, particularly in a relaxed warming-up context where you tend to add flourish. In a different situation he will block with the volley as well (and Bopanna will probably add slice in some situations as well). Furthermore, the outgoing ball has different spin characteristics and the backspin from the chop is tactically valuable in a bunch of situations. It's fair to advise people to go for more "robust" shots (it's not about "efficiency", few players are as biomechanically "efficient" as Fed) that work better with suboptimal execution, but these are simply two different shots.
Being extremely gifted can often mask inefficient areas. That clip of Fed's BH volley looks like a slice
Agreed. You can get away with a lot of if you’re gifted.
Agree on it being very important to not try to copy Roger's volley technique as well as his serve. Although it looks so beautiful it is quite unconventional and rather complicated (for example the serve toss and the rhythm on the serve). I do must say that this clip is of a practice where he is clearly being more loose and taking a bit bigger cuts. In matches his volleys were often a lot 'cleaner' s@@BeforeandAfterTennis
Rogers volleys are meant for singles not for doubles. He has perfect timing but its a finishing volley. Doesnt work in doubles where most volleys are quick and youre basically reacting and have no time to take your racket high.
BS . Doubles or singles doesn't matter. Good volleyer is good in either.
@@JAM-fm8ltyou just saying that Roger’s volleys are technically wrong? As mentioned before, Roger is a singles player and his game is all around singles, whereas Bompana is a doubles specialist, who perfects his strokes for doubles. Even game situations differ when singles players hit volleys and double specialists. Nadal is considered as one of the best and effective vollyers on tour. How is he compared to Bompana? Why don’t you compare other strokes of doubles players versus singles? You could find more interesting things to speak about
@GGg-yj5uf no, never said that.
Have you ever heard of past number 1 single and number 1 in doubles also ,Johny mcenroe
Doubles is all about anticipation and reflexes, and if you watch Federer's doubles matches his volleying is alot more efficient and compact because you cannot afford to use a singles approach volley technique when you're already right up at the net.
I’ve seen many intermediate players try to execute “singles” volleys while playing doubles. They will take their racquets back and step in….to a reflex volley. It looks ridiculous, but they are mimicking what they were taught.
Another wrong approach I see every day is to try to slice their volleys. Pros tell them the slice will keep the ball from bouncing up. What the pros don’t say is you’ll only make about 50% of them. The other 50% will go in the net. Don’t worry about the bounce. Worry about getting it in.
Thanks for the video! Is there a longer video of Bopanna from that side angle?
good point. Btw, does it matter that for singles sometimes you have to volley from deeper in the court vs in a double's game you get to stand/stay pretty close near the net.
People shouldn’t obsess about technique. You look at the best players in the world and they have their unique technique
. You shouldn’t try to copy anybody. Just experiment and do what’s best for you and you only. Jmo.
Agreed. Look at Stepanek, one of the best volleyers in singles and doubles. He was just pushing the ball. Beautiful technique.
A player can have the best technique in the world on the tennis courts, but will they win matches
@@johnmcclanahan9280It is much better to have the better technique as it increases your chances of hitting a good shot and winning more points
Nice video
I agree the straight volley is more efficient in complexity of movement. So is a flat straight forehand, but that does not mean you are going to win. The most efficient in terms of complexity is to not move the racket at all. Additionally, from an energy point of view, you are letting gravity help you if you swing downward.
Part of how he plays is because of the racket. And as many already mention its more of a finishing volley than a reaction volley. Dimitrov uses a very similar technique. Same with sampras, and edberg. Bopana uses a similat technique on finishing volleys as well. Same technique with nadal, not as high on the take back though usually
I'm going to add that Roger seems to have adopted this high backswing with his groundstrokes, too. If you watch the evolution of his groundstrokes from 2003 to around 2007 or so, you can see how his racquet take back on his forehand and backhand changed from a more linear take back to an initial upright racquet position. The racquet faces is open vs. being closed. I don't know if he did that in order to try to prepare earlier, but it also seemed to result in less consistent penetration on his groundstrokes and more errors. In 2017, he made a bit of an adjustment again on his backhand to a more linear path, and he won 2 GS that year and beat Nadal I think 4 times.
05 Fed's forehand was so good.
i think you're right here that it's more efficient. but i was taught the federer chop style as a junior in the early 2000's. not sure if i can change at this point
It's totally possible to change. But you have to think about it through the lens of motor programming and structure your sessions accordingly. Check out the information in this article: www.beforeandaftertennis.com/blog/what-chunking-is-and-how-you-can-use-it-to-change-and-improve-your-tennis
I get your point, if I had to teach one style of volleying only I would start by teaching Bopanna's style first, meaning flat volleys. But I don't like how do say that one is more "efficient" than the other, it's just different tools. Rather than opposing the two shots, let's just say that they are not build for the same purpose, and as single players and double players don't perform in the same environment, it makes sense that their preferred tool is not the same.
Bopanna's playing environment is double. The timeframe is shorter on average, because you are often closer to the net and the defensive volleys are more common. A shorter, simpler motion is easier to perform in those situations. Meanwhile, scoring a winner with a volley is simpler : you have more angles (double's alley and closer), more pace to work with, and some easy targets like aiming at the other net player. In this context, a simple, mostly flat, reliable volley is your bread and butter for both defense and offense. Adding spin would be increasing the risk without adding enough benefits. Pounces are another technical subject I think.
Now Roger's environment is playing as a very offensive singles player that comes to the net very often to finish points. So he needs mainly an offensive tool, because he will more often hit volleys in a favorable position. With this top down motion he can control the pace efficiently : He can either generate his own pace using "gravity free power", for example on weaker defensive balls, or on the contrary remove pace using the backspin effect, all that with the very same preparation. Short volleys are deadly in singles, perfect to finish a weakened opponent that is far behind his line or wrong foot him if he's on the move. In doubles, it can work too, but there are often better options. Meanwhile, if the volley is not perfect, at least the lower rebounds makes it harder to hit lobs and passing shots, so you're protecting yourself and setting you up for a second deadlier volley. Additionally, this racket path adds some control because the ball stays in the strings a little bit longer. I'm pretty sure when the timeframe is getting shorter, Rogers will adapt and simplify his motion. Additionally, Roger's BH volley motion is actually pretty close to his sliced baseline BH, which is his favored BH for consistency, meaning that with his training and expertise, volleying like this doesn't add much inconsistency to his net game.
As for the club player, for that particular move, the simpler the better. You should at least try both ideally, some player that are naturally confident with their BH slice might be more consistent with that type of volley. But if you want to have an effective short volley on the BH side it's something you'll have to learn at some point.
Thanks for the detailed comment. I'm defining efficient as "the least amount of moving parts." You need to factor in that regardless of how you hit, the ball only stays in contact with the strings for 0.004-0.006 milliseconds. If that's an important factor then you'll set the strings and track them outwards. Again, as I mentioned in the video, if you want to volley like Rog and can do it consistently, I won't say anything to you!
Great explanation, could you please use similar player angles (both side view, both front view etc) and similar type of ball (low volley, high volley etc) for comparison? Thanks!
Hello, thanks for the comment. The challenge is finding footage as copyright can be an issue on CZcams. Thanks!
When you volley, it depends so much on speed of the ball where you want to go with the ball and which type of volley grip you have. Each ball has a slightly different character. Therefore how to hit your volley becomes slightly different.
Both players are receiving the ball at roughly the same speed.
Do more of these simplified concepts
Could you give me a little more detail on what you mean? Trying to figure out what an audience might be interested in
@@BeforeandAfterTennis Breaking down tennis myths with side by side images like in this video.
Can you do a vid on changing forehand grip from Western to semi Eastern for a more flat shot.
My Western grip is losing me games
@@njh8277 ok, I see. I have more videos planned but it takes me some time to make these! A few on serve coming, but I’ll do some research about the grips. No guarantees. But thanks for the input 👍🏽
What Federer does there, could it be considered a little slice? (sorry ; I am beginner)
Technically, it’s under spin 😉
The Fed's slice volley stabilizes the rackets head with downward momentum. This means the racket wont flex as much on the contact even with off center hits. I'm not saying that the compact volley is wrong or inferior, but I'm saying that there is a reason why Fed volleys like that.
Love it
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.
Roger's tecks are the most beautiful but then again no matter how you try you will not be him or Nadal or Pete Sampras, they have been repeating the same stroke their entire life while we have been working for a living. These video makes so much sense !!!!!!!!!
Would possessing both strokes be beneficial, or does Federer's technique have to many variables to be a reliable shot?
If the ball is floating slowly in the air, you'll see doubles pros layback their rackets so that they can get more racket speed into the contact. So that's probably a time you'd want to emulate what Fed does.
Hit Federer's way if you have a one handed backhand, you play 7 days a week, and starting playing at 9 years old. Bopanna uses the same backhand volley as Federer and it all depends on if you hit the ball lower than net line or higher. Here is Bopanna hitting exacly like federer at the net. czcams.com/video/PSpf1BFmBLg/video.html&ab_channel=IndianTennisDaily
Heliovaara's way is great if you have a two handed back hand and volley with 2 hands half the time.
YES!! THIS THIS THIS!!! I've been saying for years that Roger's volleying technique is not ideal and not as effective as the best volleys in the game. Look at the best backhand volleys ever: Edberg, Sampras, Rafter, McEnroe, Navratilova, King, and Mandlikova. Compact, fairly linear backswing and a good punch, with a strong wrist position. Roger volleys similar to how Sabatini volleyed, with a fairly upward and longish backswing and a weak wrist position (I know I'm not using the best technical terms). Though Gaby's reflex backhand volley was superb, and it's because she didn't take that long backswing. Roger and Gaby's technique resulted in volleys with placement and spin, but not alot of court penetration. Roger's forehand volley was more compact, but he still used a fairly weak grip position.
Also I wish Roger was coached by Martina. Martina's first volleys were second to none and this is an area where Roger really could have improved his effectiveness at the net. I felt this is why he ended up relying on his masterful drop volleys so much, which wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but became predictable. But....alas, you cannot argue with his results LOL.
Yes, you cannot get much penetration if you decide to volley the way fed did.
Yes you won’t be able to put as much pace on the ball if you swing sharply downwards so like Fed
This is just his warmup volley, in matches he has more compact volleys, especially if he doesn't have much time. I agree that his way of hitting the ball is not smart to copy as an amateur, but when Roger does it it's clearly as good as any other backhand volley.
@@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten No, he really doesn't. Of course if he doesn't have time, he'll shorten his backswing, but it doesn't make a more effective volley because reactive volleys typically don't penetrate the court as much. During regular match play, his backswing is just like his warmup. Why would he warmup a different stroke than he actually plays. That makes no sense. Also no, his backhand volley isn't even as good as Nadal's. It's nowhere near the backhand volley as Edberg, Rafter, Martina, or Sampras.
Just as a general comment: both players are receiving the ball at roughly the same speed. They are both at the net receiving groundstrokes from a baseline player. Yet their technique is pretty different. And, to reiterate the point of the video, you can volley like Federer if you like. If you have the handspeed and coordination to make that timing again and again under score and match pressure, as I mention in the video, I won't say a word to you. But if you're a new player, or even an advanced player struggling with volleys, try setting your strings and creating a short linear push towards your target. Good luck
If I’m not going to emulate roger then what’s the point?
You can and totally should emulate Roger in certain facets! You could also emulate his backhand volley if you really wanted to. But it would have consequences in terms of timing
it is slide volley vs flat volley... waaay better slide but it is harder to do and you need more time, u should choose one of those on each situation
Ok. So you either studied Vic Braden or trained under Steve Smith. I’m guessing Steve Smith? I’ve just recently found your content and very solid!
Hello Jim! Are you the Jim whom Ryan trained under? If so, nice to meet you. I have an ear-marked copy of Braden's book. It would be inflating credentials to say I trained under Steve. Rather I spent a few months in sessions and being trained by him. I also have gone through some GreatBase courses and have listened and learned a lot from their podcasts. Thank you!
@@BeforeandAfterTennis Good call, yes. Been with Ryan since he was 9. CZcams needs more content like yours. Excellent information. I will direct your CZcams channel to our members at the club (DTC/Doylestown Tennis Club) in our next news letter/calendar of events.
@@jimklein6958 thank you for the kind words, Jim. And that is very kind of you to share with the members. Stay well! - Malhar
Does the doubles player play singles ? If so , does he use this technique when he does do ?
There are less variables in singles , that may allow for a more open backhand . Efficiency at thr net makes sence ftom a doubles perspective , as well as an 18x20 racquet to do so . This is why doubles specialists are as good as they ate in doubles , but how good are they in singles using the same technique when their is only one person on the other side ?
This comes from someone who is an all court serve volley player .
Obviously you never hear of past number 1 single and double player in the world, Johnny Macenroe
@@JAM-fm8lt Obviously. I do since I was raised in Queens , NY. My first racquet in 1985 was the Dunlop Black Max , sister to the 200 G . No one cared or thought of him as a doubles player . His fame is in singles . The game was also different back then and so were the racquets and strings . I lived wright by flushing medow park within a quick walking distance . I past forest hills , pre flushing medows on ocation . Conners having his last match there and him walking away .
@derekpappas1556 Volleys hasn't changed. He was also a great doubles player. Most titles he and Fleming won was probably due to Mcenroe volleying ability.
With new racket technology, his volleys would be even better today.
Those players who were great in 80s with those impossible to control and less powerful racket would be just as great today with more powerful racket today.
As tell my 14 year old son, if he wants to be the best ,he needs to be aggressive and volley every single opportunity he gets to finish the point off quickly. with everyone playing same stupid boring games today, Any one who volleys 80% of in a match would make it to top 100 in men's tennis.
Cressy, Purcel, and Alcarez are perfect example.
@@JAM-fm8lt Serve and volley served its purposes and yes it was and is very dynamic. But in the primary age of serve and volley it had some boringness as well . I was a person who did not play within the norms . Using natural top spin that ended up acting like a drop shot as well as liking to have longer rallies. Everything in balance , for an all court game.
Doubles in the past reflected singles because of racquet weight , string types and denser string beds . Singles used generally the same racquets , yet with more space to movevon thr court .
If the players did not change , it is because the game did not change . If macenroe was fresh today , he would be playing the game that corporations and the tours have brainwashed into him . This is what today's players do along with the change of racquets , strings , balls and courts . I do not agree with it , but more of a balance is occuring . Teach your son an all court serve volley game , but eventually he needs to find out what instinctually best suits him . Do not try to make him a mini me , free will is key , along with loving guidance . Support him with the wright values and the equipment and balls to suit your child's personal game style .
@@JAM-fm8ltI'm sorry, but if 80's players played in the modern game with a modern racquet they would get absolutely destroyed and not be top 100 or maybe even top 1000. The courts are simply much slower and everyone hits a lot bigger and is much faster and physically fit, so they will hit many more passing shots than they used to. But I am certain that if they had grown up in the modern day that they would have been talented enough to be top players, but just not while using serve volley.
Serve volley is just not a compatible strategy in the modern game, it can be used on occasion as a surprise attack much like Carlos does it, but the best players will always beat you if it's the core of your game.
It can be effective at lower levels, but the highest ranked serve volley player is Cressy who still has to have good groundstrokes to have a chance and he can only win on fast indoor hardcourt.
I don't understand these kind of videos. In doubles you must react quickly, in singles, you go to the net after you constructed the point and usually you have more time. Roger does not slice either in a quick doubles exchange. There are million type of situations and million type of perfect volleys. 😉
You'll have hard times convincing so many federer worshippers out there. 😂
I worship Fed, too, in many ways. I used to have the 95 ncodes and he's the reason I play with one hand on the backhand. But that shouldn't stop us from decoupling and assessing his inefficiencies
Federer’s Volley is
for slow and friendly balls,
But when Djoko flattens
it towards him, He gets
Hit. Then fanboys get
angry….😂😂😂
Federer is doing a different type of BH volley there than what Bopanna is showcasing ... That ball will hit very different than Bopanna's. And two, RF is a righty with a left eye dominance, that's why you see such techniques on his BH side (be it volleys or the actual BH) ....
Federer is popular but a lot of things that he did aren't good examples to emulate for players of any level. The (way too) fast rhythm of the serve, the J-hook ball toss, the BH "slice volley", the BH slice that drops to the ground, or even the 1HBH that isn't as effective in modern game...all are pretty bad for 99% of the players.
Bad advice. Roger does it the optimal/correct way. You should never push your shots, except maybe right next to the net putting away an easy ball. A volley is essentially a deflection. Take care of your racquet face orientation and perpendicular downward motion in relation to that. And all will be good.
The advice is sound. The word push has a bad connotation but it is still accurate here. He’s using a combination of arm with his step in to keep the ball in line with contact initially farther and potentially for a longer time period.
If you think Federer does it the optimal/correct way, try this experiment. Stand halfway between the net and service line with your racket head behind your head, as Federer does. Use his setup at 04:16. Set a ball machine or have someone feed you at 30mph/50kmh. I'm sure any skilled player can make the timing to contact again and again... but is that how you really want to volley? Now set it at 60mph/100kmh or have someone feed you that fast. Can you still make that timing... yanking your racket down into the contact? Or would you rather set the racket with the strings to the target and learn to time the step and push outwards in a short linear motion? Good luck
I think you’re both saying the same thing. You just disagree on what’s “optimal.” His argument is a smaller motion is more efficient, which you really can’t argue against. Your optimal might not be built on efficiency but something else. Roger is a great net player by singles standards, but I doubt he’d be the best doubles volleyer where you have to defend against very quick shots coming from short distances. Roger is flashy with his technique, and it’s lovely, but his flare isn’t fundamental to a good swing.
@@seanr.8499 But it's exactly the question of fundamentals here on which we disagree. You accidentally said it yourself: A good swing is the question we are dealing with and a good swing is always -- a swing, never a push. If there is a problem with timing your swings on fast incoming balls you should never react by discarding and giving up on the fundamental parts of your shots, no, you adjust non-fundamental aspects of ypur techniques like the length of the take-back loop/degree of coiling etc. but never turn a swing to a push. Swing is a pendulum kind of a natural motion on a circular path, push is an artifact of flawed linear biomechanics born out of over-controlling racket arm and mind of a player. .
Federer is the most gifted player ever... Not everyone can do it -.-
I don't think it is fair to compare a singles player and doubles player...one more thing if need be using a reasonable and comparable point has to be taken
Roger’s volley technique is for singles . Your comparison is off - like comparing apples and oranges. Most double players are stationery when they hit a volley. Roger on the other hand is moving.
Hi Lord Byron, both players are receiving balls at the same pace and are taking volleys at the net, yet how they hit the ball is pretty different.
"Takes the racquet too high and hacks ... ?" Really?!! Your saying Roger Fererer "hacks" at the ball??!!
Hello, yes, the way that he's hitting his backhand volley in this video.
Folks, stop trying to play like Roger. Mere mortals don’t have Roger’s talent AND YEARS of focused practice. If you did, you would be top 10 in the world!
Very deceptive video and bad advice.
Federer takes his racket all the way up in the volley if the incoming ball is relatively slow, he doesn't do it on fast balls.
The chopping down makes the ball stay too low so that the very athletic defenders that run down every ball will have no option than to lift it up and he'll then finish with the second volley. Roger's technique is best when you're taking the first volley from deep in the court
Using Federer as a comparison is knucklhead. Use a serve and volley player-Sampras or McEnroe or Navratilova.
This guy is acting like Roger doesn't know how to hit a volley. I've watched him lots and lots of times against many other people. I can assure you that Fed knows exactly what he's doing out on the court, people (in singles and doubles). I've seen Fed hit an extremely hard hit ball from Kyrios and got it back for a winner when Fed was at the net, so don't say anything about him not being able to volley because I'm not going to listen to you. Fed's game is 100% complete. All the other players would have to be beyond their game just to keep up with Fed.
This is just not enough against top players with crazy athleticism and passing shots. of course recreational players shouldnt volley or hit a forehand like Federer
I wish more rec players understood this... but it is a struggle
as a 4.5-5.0 player, federer's swing makes more sense, as his technique is very very efficient. Rohan's technique is also efficient but is for double. Also lower level players wouldn't make any difference learning Rohan's swing since Rohan's technique is also very advanced. I think any level less than USTA 4.5, volley should be a mini lob, most new tennis players trying to volley would get everything spray because they just don't have full control of their body yet.
A lot of amazing pro strokes should not be imitated by club players. Try hitting a forehand like Medvedev consistently... When he does it, it's precise and very effective. If you try to do it like he does it, it will most likely suck.
Lol they have the same technique just doubles is fastef than singles, federer for sure adjusts based on speed
How dare you bro?
🤣🤣yes inefficient volley makes you win, you're comparing an artist with 20 GS, Olympic Gold & Silver medals. I think we should appreciate the fact every player has their own style of playing tennis.... what works for Bopanna might not work RF. You can even say RF's BH slice is not what they teach you in tennis school's but he has perfected that for his gamestyle. 🤭🤭
This man really used a video of Federer warming up on some underhand fed balls to say don't volley like him. Federer is first of all a singles player, so they can be much more aggressive with their cuts because its all about aggression and not reaction like in doubles. This practice looks like approach aggressive volleys as well not to mention the balls are coming at a fifth of actual match speeds where he has all the time in the world to take his racket high as he wants.
So i'll say this, this video is bs. If you're a singles player and you get a ball coming at you at this speed by all means take a bigger cut. Be offensive. Now, if you have to be defensive and need to be reactionary to a fast shot, then no don't do this.
Dont serve like Federer, serve like a pro doubles player, its weird, theres to much differences on the game, to say something like that
Fact that bopanna is nr 1 is just sad for tennis. A guy with a dad bod is no elite atlete
Doubles players have different physical demands than single players. I would not say he's not elite in any way, though
@@BeforeandAfterTennis As far as I know, nr 1 in a sport and a dad bod pretty much impossible except for darts. In a singles match he would get destroyed by top 10.000, most likely top 10 WTA
God I hate archaic bad tennis instruction. Or instruction for 12 year old players. You are literally saying arguably the best player to ever play the game is doing it wrong. Now listen to my old advice from the 1960s to correct your technique. And then in summary "would you rather be a pusher or hack at the ball like Federer? Hysterical.
Hey Mike, thanks for the comment. I'm saying he's doing it inefficiently-not incorrectly. If you're a rec/club player or if you are in the developmental stages, you should eliminate all the extra parts and calculations. I'll just copy-paste what I wrote below and said in the video, "And, to reiterate the point of the video, you can volley like Federer if you like. If you have the handspeed and coordination to make that timing again and again under score and match pressure, as I mention in the video, I won't say a word to you. But if you're a new player, or even an advanced player struggling with volleys, try setting your strings and creating a short linear push towards your target. Good luck."
Sorry but atp doubles is played by inferior players. Kyrgios n Kokk won a grand slam without practice. Qed