Hey, I'd love for you to do a proper comparison with some fresh Vision3 250D. Remove the remjet and compare with 400D maybe? I can send you a free roll of 35mm 250D, courtesy of Analog Amsterdam.
I do feel it's a bit of a cop out for Cinestill to say it isn't Vision 3 250D when it's almost certain that the emulsion is just 250D emulsion. It's great that they're big enough that they can custom order film from Kodak Eastman with their own markings on the film base rather than removing the remjet on existing Kodak stock, but if it's the same emulsion on a similar base material then it's still basically the same film!
@@GregoryVeizades Do the master rolls come in a package? Yes or no? The answer is yes, so it is repackaged motion picture stock, even if they do all that themselves. They are simply liars.
I'm surprised at how well those wipe/fades work for the processing comparisons. I never thought I'd think of them as "appropriate" for anything, but this use is actually really useful too.
I have a feeling that the "infra-red effect" on that last trichrome might be the halations in the red channel through the frayed plant parts going nuts.
I also think 400D is just 250D "rebranded", my speculation is Cinestill is now big enough to ask Kodak to customize the film stock for them such as inprint the "cinestill" brand onto the film strip, not apply the remjet and not punching sprocket wholes in the first place. So yeah technically they can say "no this is not just 250D without remjet" because kodak also customized the"appearance" for Cinestill... How does removing remjet increase the iso is beyond me.. I've tried myself with normal 35mm 250d, removed the remjet first and then go out to shoot with it, no magical increase of sensitivity.. however with remjet removed the unexposed& undeveloped film base looks exactly like cinestills.
Interesting. I've been curious about the boost in sensitivity. I'm a little surprised to hear it didn't work, maybe there's a little something extra going on behind the scenes. That might be something to dive deeper into.
@@Spyzilla1850 maybe i need to do my experiments more precisely...but since it's almost impossible to get ECN2 chemicals at reasonable price here in Japan i've always been developing motion picture films in C41.
There's a guy called Ribsy here on YT who's done direct comparisons of developing 800T in C41 and ECN2, and the C41 definitely increases the sensitivity and generally yields a denser negative. That's probably why Cinestill rate their films a stop over what their emulsions were originally rated for. Develop Cinestill 400D in ECN2 and you'd probably need to have shot it at ISO 250, though that'd be an interesting thing to test!
Well, the ISO doesn’t increase by removing the remjet. Technically. Iirc 250D in C-41 has an effective ISO around 320. So that is part of it. The 400 comes from them wanting to minimize halation. Yes, it’s the cinestill look, but halation is not for everyone. Shooting 400D at 250 ISO is overexposing the film slightly due to the process, and also allows more light in. And when you let mod light into the camera, you can expect more halation.
I really want to get back into darkroom printing. I've never tried color printing though, that's a bit beyond my abilities but I would love to trichrome a darkroom print.
@@atticdarkroom yeah, I just bought my first darkroom setup. My high school never offered a film class, so a lot of this is going to be self taught. Once I get consistent I’ll give it a shot. My first print should be happening this week!
Cinestill not being transparent about anything? And lying? Who would've thought. I'm amazed you didn't get an accidental redscale or the damn static discharges, but if they do get it without remjet straight from the factory (and don't do repackaging themselves) that leaves most of QA on Kodak and not much regular Cinestill screw ups can happen. btw 3 stops for "400d" which is actually 250D is ISO 2000 - maybe that can explain rather thin results?
Even if Kodak repackages it for them (which would be pretty sad as a company to have as your product flow), it is still repackaged anyway lol. Still a lie.
I’ve always felt CS exaggerates claims. They also say removing the remjet layer makes it more light sensitive, but I don’t agree with that. This is for sure 250D. I find Vision films look best when exposed a stop under.
The C41 process is ~1 stop faster than ECN2. That is the reason for the effective gain in sensitivity. Remjet is on the base side of film and has nothing to do with sensitivity.
@@GregoryVeizades that’s not what CineStill says or how they explain it (not that I agree with them). I also have never heard that C41 is faster than ECN-2. Where did you hear that?
@@GregoryVeizades You are correct that C41 is the main reason, but obviously halation increases ISO slightly. It's more light. That was not there before (was being absorbed by remjet, now is bouncing back into the film). Affecting the film. So it is higher ISO.
Vision 250D is sensitive to about 700nm and if this is 250D sans remjet you might be able to get HIE like halos with an R72 filter maybe perhaps with tons of exposure
Try do slide develop like an old process: -bw dev in high concentration dev -stop -wash - lightning -c41 color dev at light -bleach+fix At the next week, i wanna try this with vision 500t or 250d, but use original kodak ecn-2 developer for color dev ( this dev so toxic:/)
Goodness, people have stupid opinions on Cinestill. But not you. I definitely think they were being cheeky and a bit literal on their FAQ, but also people think Cinestill just opens up cans of Vision3, wipes off some remjet, and doubling the price while still pretending we live in 1995 when film was the only way to get great technical results. But maybe I'm tired of people with lame complaints about legitimately one of the primary drivers of the film resurgence. 😅
Sorry, got caught up in the rant. 😅 I realized I’ve never cross processed negative film in E6, so that was cool to see. Also, it’s extra interesting here since ECN2 uses the same color developer as E6.
You're right they don't wipe it off. They are in fact MORE lazy than that and get it straight from kodak with no remjet. And then double the price without even doing so much as what you described, making it significantly worse than you said. And no it's not "cheeky," it's fraud. It is 100% repackaged, including completely literally speaking. There is no logical sense in which you can say it was not repackaged without lying.
You think CUSTOM ORDERING from Kodak is cheap? That's a gross simplification, especially in regards to the finishing cost (clearly finished by Harman, which will involve something like sending coffins of film to the UK). I think the concept that the cost is doubled needlessly is ludicrous. Perhaps it might still be a bit high, but I think the real ripoff are these companies that scrub and sell 27-frame rolls for the same price as Cinestill.
@@JamieMPhoto Yes, actually, I do think that bulk ordering from a manufacturer is much cheaper than buying small individually packaged non bulk versions of the same product with more processing and extra ingredients (carbon, remjet glue) done to them from the same manufacturer. Because basic common sense? Bulk is always cheaper, and manufacturer adore bulk customemrs.
I’ve got exposed 35mm laying around all shot at box speed, what would I need to do to develop them in E-6? I’m always unsure as to how much longer I would need to do the FD for.
Generally speaking a 2 stop push should be enough, although I can't say for certain because each emulsion is different. By the sound of it you have multiple rolls you want to cross process? If that's the case I'd start with one and go from there.
CineStill hasn't done rem jet removal for years. They get uncut master rolls from Kodak without the rem jet layer. Also did you develop the 250D in C41 or ECN2 and what developer did you use for the BW?
Id love to see more trichrome of that last tree because smoke trees like that get very red so i’m curious if the overbearing red color has something to do with the red color hiding beneath the green of the leaves
I just read a comment on Technology connections channel's video about darkroom printing that said "tri-x gives a nice effect when frozen in developer overnight", they didn't go into more detail than that but that sounds like something you would try.
@@atticdarkroom If you do actually go as far as to actually freeze it then remember, water expands when freezing so don't fill the tank to the brim if you don't want a mess in your freezer, also I don't know if patersson reels like being frozen, I doubt anything will happen to steel reels and I know you have a very nice steel reel from your boiling water video. That being said, if a hewes reel does break somehow it is more expensive to replace.
Definitely using my cheap steel reels first. Also good call on the water expanding bit, I totally forgot that would happen. I might need to get a bigger tank.
@@atticdarkroom also if you want to truly test it at freezing temperatures you could try to cool the developer down to like 5-3°C before putting it in the freezer so it does not develop for too long in liquid developer and perhaps pre chill the tank in the freezer (but probably not the reel unless you want to freeze your fingers off.) Also if the freezer is intended to be used for food then use a lid, don't want your food to absorb coldinal fumes (even though it probaly does not fume too much when frozen.) But don't put the lid on until it is completely frozen, again, water expands when freezeing and if the lid is air tight it will compress the air in the tank and possibly shoot the lid off.
Just watched your bleach bypass video and it gave me a most likely terrible idea. Thinking outside the box (an understatement if im being honest) you should try redscaling and pushing some standard e6 film to 12800iso and then cross processing it in c41 chemistry whilst bleach bypassing and reticulating it. I can't imagine anything usefull comming out of it but im sure it would be quite interesting to see the results (if there are any). Love the channel and can't wait for the next video.
Also Cinestill says made in USA on the box, so I'm pretty sure it's a Kodak emulsion. I am curious about the new ORWO stuff, hopefully I'll get my hands on some.
Ah, this channel always doing stupid stuff with film so I don’t have to. It’s always good to have somewhere to go to if the thought pops into my mind: “I wonder what happens if I put the film in boiling blix and then ice cold wash-aid mixed from concentrate and beer”
I passed on this results as expired film and you made so many references to it being expired. Feel its a waste to watch. Ill come back in the future if a new video is posted
Cinestill film is trash. All of it. If not for their other products and accessories, I’d have no use for them at all. So many defects and I HATE that BS halation nonsense.
It is true that cinema film does not look very appealing when cross processed. I think what cinestill does best is chemistry. 24 rolls capacity per one liter of c41 developer is really economical.
Hey, I'd love for you to do a proper comparison with some fresh Vision3 250D. Remove the remjet and compare with 400D maybe? I can send you a free roll of 35mm 250D, courtesy of Analog Amsterdam.
Hard to say no to free film. Although I'm not sure if/when I would revisit this. Shoot me an email at stuff@atticdarkroom.com
I do feel it's a bit of a cop out for Cinestill to say it isn't Vision 3 250D when it's almost certain that the emulsion is just 250D emulsion. It's great that they're big enough that they can custom order film from Kodak Eastman with their own markings on the film base rather than removing the remjet on existing Kodak stock, but if it's the same emulsion on a similar base material then it's still basically the same film!
Kodak doesnt so the finishing for Cinestill. Cinestill is ordering unmarked master rolls and doing all the slitting and edge coding themselves now.
@@GregoryVeizades Do the master rolls come in a package? Yes or no? The answer is yes, so it is repackaged motion picture stock, even if they do all that themselves. They are simply liars.
I'm literally building an attic darkroom right now xD
I'm surprised at how well those wipe/fades work for the processing comparisons. I never thought I'd think of them as "appropriate" for anything, but this use is actually really useful too.
I have a feeling that the "infra-red effect" on that last trichrome might be the halations in the red channel through the frayed plant parts going nuts.
I also think 400D is just 250D "rebranded", my speculation is Cinestill is now big enough to ask Kodak to customize the film stock for them such as inprint the "cinestill" brand onto the film strip, not apply the remjet and not punching sprocket wholes in the first place. So yeah technically they can say "no this is not just 250D without remjet" because kodak also customized the"appearance" for Cinestill...
How does removing remjet increase the iso is beyond me..
I've tried myself with normal 35mm 250d, removed the remjet first and then go out to shoot with it, no magical increase of sensitivity.. however with remjet removed the unexposed& undeveloped film base looks exactly like cinestills.
Interesting. I've been curious about the boost in sensitivity. I'm a little surprised to hear it didn't work, maybe there's a little something extra going on behind the scenes. That might be something to dive deeper into.
Removing remjet doesn't affect the iso, processing ECN2 films in C41 push them a bit.
@@Spyzilla1850 maybe i need to do my experiments more precisely...but since it's almost impossible to get ECN2 chemicals at reasonable price here in Japan i've always been developing motion picture films in C41.
There's a guy called Ribsy here on YT who's done direct comparisons of developing 800T in C41 and ECN2, and the C41 definitely increases the sensitivity and generally yields a denser negative. That's probably why Cinestill rate their films a stop over what their emulsions were originally rated for. Develop Cinestill 400D in ECN2 and you'd probably need to have shot it at ISO 250, though that'd be an interesting thing to test!
Well, the ISO doesn’t increase by removing the remjet. Technically. Iirc 250D in C-41 has an effective ISO around 320. So that is part of it. The 400 comes from them wanting to minimize halation. Yes, it’s the cinestill look, but halation is not for everyone. Shooting 400D at 250 ISO is overexposing the film slightly due to the process, and also allows more light in. And when you let mod light into the camera, you can expect more halation.
120 Film with sprockets looks exceptionally cursed
The film also fed in slightly crooked.
Loved my rolls of 400D. Saved them for a trip to Switzerland and got great results :)
You just knocked it out of the park! I am always amazed be your experiments! Now i have to try some, myself
I absolutely love your videos. I get so pumped when I see a new upload. I'd be curious to see a tri-chrome darkroom print
I really want to get back into darkroom printing. I've never tried color printing though, that's a bit beyond my abilities but I would love to trichrome a darkroom print.
@@atticdarkroom yeah, I just bought my first darkroom setup. My high school never offered a film class, so a lot of this is going to be self taught. Once I get consistent I’ll give it a shot. My first print should be happening this week!
That's awesome, good luck!
Oh hell yeah new video. I'm still waiting on my 400D
Thanks. You are doing what I cannot afford in time and money
Cinestill not being transparent about anything? And lying? Who would've thought. I'm amazed you didn't get an accidental redscale or the damn static discharges, but if they do get it without remjet straight from the factory (and don't do repackaging themselves) that leaves most of QA on Kodak and not much regular Cinestill screw ups can happen.
btw 3 stops for "400d" which is actually 250D is ISO 2000 - maybe that can explain rather thin results?
I actually shot another roll of color 400 at 3200 at the same time and it came out equally thin. Pretty certain it's user error.
Even if Kodak repackages it for them (which would be pretty sad as a company to have as your product flow), it is still repackaged anyway lol. Still a lie.
I’ve always felt CS exaggerates claims. They also say removing the remjet layer makes it more light sensitive, but I don’t agree with that. This is for sure 250D. I find Vision films look best when exposed a stop under.
The C41 process is ~1 stop faster than ECN2. That is the reason for the effective gain in sensitivity. Remjet is on the base side of film and has nothing to do with sensitivity.
@@GregoryVeizades that’s not what CineStill says or how they explain it (not that I agree with them). I also have never heard that C41 is faster than ECN-2. Where did you hear that?
@@GregoryVeizades You are correct that C41 is the main reason, but obviously halation increases ISO slightly. It's more light. That was not there before (was being absorbed by remjet, now is bouncing back into the film). Affecting the film. So it is higher ISO.
madlad is back
Great channel!!!
Vision 250D is sensitive to about 700nm and if this is 250D sans remjet you might be able to get HIE like halos with an R72 filter maybe perhaps with tons of exposure
I really liked the corrected 3200 iso shots. Very moody.
Try do slide develop like an old process:
-bw dev in high concentration dev
-stop
-wash
- lightning
-c41 color dev at light
-bleach+fix
At the next week, i wanna try this with vision 500t or 250d, but use original kodak ecn-2 developer for color dev ( this dev so toxic:/)
Cool!
Thanks for the testing!
NEW UPLOAD LETS GOOOooo
Goodness, people have stupid opinions on Cinestill. But not you. I definitely think they were being cheeky and a bit literal on their FAQ, but also people think Cinestill just opens up cans of Vision3, wipes off some remjet, and doubling the price while still pretending we live in 1995 when film was the only way to get great technical results. But maybe I'm tired of people with lame complaints about legitimately one of the primary drivers of the film resurgence. 😅
Sorry, got caught up in the rant. 😅 I realized I’ve never cross processed negative film in E6, so that was cool to see. Also, it’s extra interesting here since ECN2 uses the same color developer as E6.
Nothing wrong with a good rant.
You're right they don't wipe it off. They are in fact MORE lazy than that and get it straight from kodak with no remjet. And then double the price without even doing so much as what you described, making it significantly worse than you said. And no it's not "cheeky," it's fraud. It is 100% repackaged, including completely literally speaking. There is no logical sense in which you can say it was not repackaged without lying.
You think CUSTOM ORDERING from Kodak is cheap? That's a gross simplification, especially in regards to the finishing cost (clearly finished by Harman, which will involve something like sending coffins of film to the UK). I think the concept that the cost is doubled needlessly is ludicrous. Perhaps it might still be a bit high, but I think the real ripoff are these companies that scrub and sell 27-frame rolls for the same price as Cinestill.
@@JamieMPhoto Yes, actually, I do think that bulk ordering from a manufacturer is much cheaper than buying small individually packaged non bulk versions of the same product with more processing and extra ingredients (carbon, remjet glue) done to them from the same manufacturer. Because basic common sense? Bulk is always cheaper, and manufacturer adore bulk customemrs.
I’ve got exposed 35mm laying around all shot at box speed, what would I need to do to develop them in E-6? I’m always unsure as to how much longer I would need to do the FD for.
Generally speaking a 2 stop push should be enough, although I can't say for certain because each emulsion is different. By the sound of it you have multiple rolls you want to cross process? If that's the case I'd start with one and go from there.
CineStill hasn't done rem jet removal for years. They get uncut master rolls from Kodak without the rem jet layer. Also did you develop the 250D in C41 or ECN2 and what developer did you use for the BW?
1:40 these make amazing stereoscopes!!!
Wow, i haven't seen soo much 3d in a long time
I dig the bleach process, but i don't do colour at home.
The Sprocket Holes are Cool.
Id love to see more trichrome of that last tree because smoke trees like that get very red so i’m curious if the overbearing red color has something to do with the red color hiding beneath the green of the leaves
Stupid suggestion, but maybe you swapped the red and green channels in the weird trichrome?
I tried messing with the order, and that wasn't it.
Lets goooo
do a trichrome with portra 400 that was developed in rodinal
Already done. Just waiting to finish that video.
I just read a comment on Technology connections channel's video about darkroom printing that said "tri-x gives a nice effect when frozen in developer overnight", they didn't go into more detail than that but that sounds like something you would try.
I've been meaning to try coldinal for a while, but forgot about it. I might give it a go tonight. Thanks for reminding me!
@@atticdarkroom If you do actually go as far as to actually freeze it then remember, water expands when freezing so don't fill the tank to the brim if you don't want a mess in your freezer, also I don't know if patersson reels like being frozen, I doubt anything will happen to steel reels and I know you have a very nice steel reel from your boiling water video. That being said, if a hewes reel does break somehow it is more expensive to replace.
Definitely using my cheap steel reels first. Also good call on the water expanding bit, I totally forgot that would happen. I might need to get a bigger tank.
@@atticdarkroom also if you want to truly test it at freezing temperatures you could try to cool the developer down to like 5-3°C before putting it in the freezer so it does not develop for too long in liquid developer and perhaps pre chill the tank in the freezer (but probably not the reel unless you want to freeze your fingers off.) Also if the freezer is intended to be used for food then use a lid, don't want your food to absorb coldinal fumes (even though it probaly does not fume too much when frozen.)
But don't put the lid on until it is completely frozen, again, water expands when freezeing and if the lid is air tight it will compress the air in the tank and possibly shoot the lid off.
I've got plenty of fresh rolls of 250D and 500T in 120 that I've packed myself. If you'd like I could send some to you
Just watched your bleach bypass video and it gave me a most likely terrible idea. Thinking outside the box (an understatement if im being honest) you should try redscaling and pushing some standard e6 film to 12800iso and then cross processing it in c41 chemistry whilst bleach bypassing and reticulating it. I can't imagine anything usefull comming out of it but im sure it would be quite interesting to see the results (if there are any). Love the channel and can't wait for the next video.
Hi! Whats your scanning setup? DSLR, scanner, programs, editing etc. Maybe you could do a video on your process.
@CineStillFilm is it the same emulsion without being repackaged?
Weird, I can't help but notice that the box doesn't say Vision 3 on it, but in fact is a new package that says a new thing on it.
wow, they using 70mm film
Can you cross-process C41 films (like Kodak Gold/Portra/Ektar) in ECN2? I'm out of C41 chemical but still have some ECN2 chem left.
I'd assume so, but I would expect some color shifting.
my conspiracy theory is that this may actually be ORWO's new color cinefilm- but they recently stated it's a c41 emulsion.
Also Cinestill says made in USA on the box, so I'm pretty sure it's a Kodak emulsion.
I am curious about the new ORWO stuff, hopefully I'll get my hands on some.
@@atticdarkroom yea, I missed my chance to order this film, but I did order some of the ORWO film
Ah, this channel always doing stupid stuff with film so I don’t have to. It’s always good to have somewhere to go to if the thought pops into my mind: “I wonder what happens if I put the film in boiling blix and then ice cold wash-aid mixed from concentrate and beer”
I passed on this results as expired film and you made so many references to it being expired. Feel its a waste to watch. Ill come back in the future if a new video is posted
Cinestill film is trash. All of it. If not for their other products and accessories, I’d have no use for them at all. So many defects and I HATE that BS halation nonsense.
Then don’t shoot it
@@ilikecereal156 duh. Why would I spend 15$ on something that is trash and I hate. You must be some analytical powerhouse.
It is true that cinema film does not look very appealing when cross processed. I think what cinestill does best is chemistry. 24 rolls capacity per one liter of c41 developer is really economical.
💀