I am a 73 year old man. This is the first video I have seen of a modern traffic signal controller mechanism with all the modern computerized electronics. I remember seeing the inside of traffic signal controller boxes in the 1960s. They were very different. Back then they had clock motors, rotating camshafts with microswitches and electromechanical relays.
Aw yes. When I entered the industry almost 25 yrs ago, I remember there was one or two remaining electromechanical traffic controllers left in the area I covered. I was scared to death when one needed troubleshooting. Cool to see in action but I knew nothing about fixing them LOL. Thanks for the comment!
@@streetsmartstraffic Back in those early years of working on traffic signal controllers, it was probably best to find some old timer in the industry that had worked for years on old style traffic controllers and have him teach you what he knew about the old style traffic controllers. The trouble is when these old timers retire, knowledge about old systems disappears with them. As an example of this in automobiles is that very few mechanics know how to work on carburetors that were in old cars. New young mechanics are afraid of carburetors in classic cars.
73 years YOUNG sir.... and yes, clocks were used here in the UK too. Very early systems used treadles (speed humps with a switch in) for detection. The infrastructure nobody thinks about is always fascinating. Hope you are well
@@davidgrisez Great analogy. We had that ONE guy who knew how to work on those electomechanical controllers. Luckily, before he left, they upgraded the controllers to solid state LOL.
This is why right to repair is so important! Just imagine if he showed up, verified it was broken and then just replaced the entire cabnet. That would be so expensive and wasteful. That's what Apple does when you send them a board with a ripped cable. Anyway, thank you for your hard work maintaining the devices that help keep our roads safe.
Probably still what will happen with that PLC, unlikely someone will try component level repair on a lightning struck PLC, especially not one that needs to be reliable in unattended operation later.
@@splitprissm9339 Yes, but each module can be easily replaced and troubleshooted without using special tools and proprietary software. Also, nothing is stopping you from buying a new logic chip and hardware for the PLC, it's just against regulations to install an unapproved PLC in a traffic light for the reasons you mentioned.
@@splitprissm9339 I agree. Yep, most likely when that controller is sent in, the repair will be to change out the entire board(s). With electronics, it seems to be the case these days. I'm still one of the 'ol timers' that likes to get down to a component to repair though...although the time spent probably isnt worth it LOL
ALL of your troubleshooting techniques are exactly the same as what we use in the telecom world‼️When you swap cards we call that “frogging” a bad circuit card with a known good circuit card. When you moved the loop service from its bad card slot to a spare card slot to clear the trouble. We call that a “back plane” trouble. The circuit board that has the card connectors soldered to it in the back of the rack. Much of what we do is “frogging” circuit cards, wiring, fiber jumpers, etc. with the hope of isolating that part of a circuit that’s in trouble. I TOTALLY agree with your statement document, document, document what you do. This is invaluable to the tech that comes after you. Prevents needless duplication of troubleshooting efforts. So many similarities and so interesting👍👍
I always thought the traffic signal industry paralleled other industries. So neat to hear that the troubleshooting procedures mirrored yours. I just learned some new terminology today too LOL. Thanks for adding your knowledge!
telecomms/signalling/process control, all have very similar heritage. A friend just pointed out the form factor of the detector cards is the same as the logic gate format for early digital (vacuum tube) computers... he's right. All designed to sit in a 19" rack Telecomms typically used taller cards (8U if i recall)
Telecom/Networking and Audio Visual here... same applies. From an analog signal to a broadcast quality 4K camera, gotta get the power and the 1s and 0s to the right place! When I saw you swapping the cards to troubleshoot/isolate... it put a smile on my face.
Wow. Nobody but you guys appreciate how complex these systems are. And the amount of training and knowledge that you have reminds me of the airbus technician at the airport. I think the Airbus may not be as complicated.
About 20 years ago I used to work on point of sale equipment for a large restaurant chain. Lightning struck the strip mall that housed one of our locations. I replaced the power supply for the main computer, 2 dumb terminals, one of the trunk cards in their phone system, a receipt printer, and the wall-wart power supply for their credit card terminal. Their electronic safe was fried and would not open, but I left that one for the locksmith. It could have been worse. There was an array of contractor vans at every store in the strip mall. None of the businesses escaped unscathed. This is an interesting channel and I've subscribed. Glad it popped up in my feed.
Hey Thanks for the sub! Its interesting to hear other industries that deal with lightning strikes. Seems like the damage is all over the board of what it can do. Glad it popped in your feed too!
It's rather interesting how it just randomly seems to pick and choose what to fry out of several identical items, except the example in thinking of had rather spectacular results. (it actually blew several components off of the pcb, along with a rather sizeable black spot.)
the thing to remember too is even if a device survives it is still compromised, a log should be kept, got lots of examples from my time with computers where stuff got damaged, but failed weeks or months later...
This all assumes you suspect lightning damage in the first place. Many times, we have to troubleshoot without that benefit. Imagine if you open that cabinet and found that many faults on random equipment, what would you think happened?
It's interesting how most of those boards are hot swappable, so you don't have to switch the whole thing off to replace parts. But it makes sense in a mission-critical system such as a traffic light.
Yes, thank goodness the design engineers made it easy for us operational guys to do our work. Comments left here also point to other industries that use similiar designs. Thanks for your comment!
I once took my daughter (she was like 9 yrs old) to our local city hall and asked if they could explain how the traffic system worked. They were so kind to give her a 10 minute presentation. I was amazed myself but touched that they explained it to her so methodically. Thanks to all of yall that make our civilization across the globe. 🌎
Wow that's awesome. What was better is that they were able to explain it to her to easily grasp the concept. Out of curiosity, where was this at? 2 thumbs up to the people at that city hall! Thanks for sharing. How cool
I can hear this cabinet whispering... "You can help me by putting in a bunch of SPD's (surge protection devices) to protect all In- and outgoing Wires against Lightning Strikes". But that could be expensive.
I know, I know. We do have some surge protection on the incoming utility power, and also on the ethernet devices that use POE. Our newer cabinets (like the one in the video) has some for the indications. However, those are not rated high enough to take on a lightning strike. I think you're right, the expense may start to add up. Thanks for commenting!
@@jani140 Yes sir! I was a little dumbfounded when I found that because it only took out that one small section. It could have taken out the entire circuit board but it didn't. Surges are a weird thing!
After 5 decades of working on radios, televisions & various other electrical/electronic equipment I've found damage from lightning strikes to be unpredictable. Half the time the damage is easy to trace & is logical; the other half it skips, jumps & makes no sense whatsoever... Two identical pieces of equipment sitting adjacent to each other or configured identically in different locations may not have the same outcome from a lightning strike... Here in Virginia, many intersections utilize television cameras for lane detection. If you come across an intersection with television cameras, I would appreciate seeing how this method of lane detection is implemented. I'm also curious about interconnecting controllers at different intersections using radio/fiber & on to remote monitoring/control. Keep the great videos coming!
Televison cameras (video) detection you say?? I think I have plenty of intersections to choose from... Radio or fiber interconnection you say?? Also plenty to choose from... Remote monitoring/control you say?? You get the point LOL I'll put it on my list! Thanks for sharing your insight on what you do. I've always thought the same thing how this stuff can jump around and take out what it wants and leave other things next to it perfectly fine. Thanks for commenting.
Man when lightning messes stuff up it does it real well. Case in point is this cabinet. Did a number on all that equipment you had to replace. Also the thumbnail gives me Undertaker vibes.😅
It’s a Siemens product. It’s going to be expensive regardless :) I don’t work with traffic controllers, but Siemens control and pressure equipment in polymer production. Nothing with a Siemens logo is cheap lol 😆 They make good equipment, but it comes with a price
@@farx4070 Yes, I'm told that Siemens (their traffic signal controller line now has been bought out by Yunex) controllers are one of the more expensive in the industry. I know a few other controllers but I try to streamline our products to make it easy if something needs replaced. I hate having several different products sitting in inventory. Something goes down in the cabinet, I know I can grab one item and go! Thanks for sharing your insight!
Working in a PC computer shop decades ago, this is absolutely nothing new to me when it comes to strikes. I've seen perfectly healthy looking motherboards, CPUs, video cards, and everything come into the shop dead as a door nail to various degrees. Just a shot mobo, just a shot video card, etc. Single part replacement. But I've also seen the ENTIRE machine just dead. 100% fail. Drives, cards, mobo, CPU... It's crazy what unregulated power can do to an electronic component. {deadpan look}
This depends on how "strong" the lightning strike was. A PSU to a computer, is designed to be able to take a certain hit to its isolation before the isolation fails. Its a requirement to be approved as SELV or PELV supply. A input voltage over this, will break through isolation to a certain degree, BUT a important thing to note, is that due to this isolation, a large part of the lightning strike is "extinguished". This is why just single things break. Video cards are most sensitive to high voltage, so a video card connected to the PSU through the PCIe power supply will usually go first, but a cheaper card just connected to the PCIe slot will usually survive a blast even if just mobo fails. Then the mobo, its the next sensitive thing. Then usually drives, as these have a direct connection with the PSU, but drives can usually take bigger of a hit since it has more "tolerant" components. The CPU usually dies last, its because it has a lot of semiconductors on the way, lots of voltage regulators, coils, capacitors, that will soak up a big portion of the strike before it reaches the CPU, even if its the absolutely most sensitive component of the PC. I guess when the ATX12VO standard becomes norm, the CPU and other parts of computer will be even more resistant to strikes as there will be even more components in the way for the strike.
As I've responded to other comments here-Its neat to hear other industries that share similarities to traffic signals (troubleshooting procedures, terminology, etc.) Thanks for sharing!
@@sebastiannielsen It all boils down to, as you said, how strong of a hit, but also what kind of protection is between whatever got struck and what managed to get through the house wiring to the PC (UPS, surge protections, directly plugged into the wall...). It obviously varied from hit to hit, machine to machine. Depending on the day and the kind of storm we're having around here, I'll go unplug every computer in the house even if most of them are hiding behind a decent UPS. My servers go dark, my internet goes offline... If it weren't for the fact that I don't want spoiled food or melted ice cubes, I'd pull the main breaker to the house. Even then, depending on the strike, electricity is going to do its damnedest to find ground, even if it means having to go through my PC components.
I work for an MSP, notes are our friend, so much so that I keep a notebook on hand for diagramming parts and other observations that I can't put into the ticketing system. I found that even outside of work, on personal projects, notes are my friend. I recently was pondering if I installed a card in a system I was playing with, flipped the notes, found a note saying I had installed it and the drivers, when was the last time I worked on thing, check the notes.
Oh man! You're speaking my language LOL. I might be a little OCD, but I like to keep notes on stuff outside of work as well. It may be years since I did something, but if I have a date and info, it rejogs my memory quickly...especially since I'm getting older. Thanks for commenting!
The only opto stuff that I'm aware of is inside the load switches (the device that takes the logic on/off output from the traffic signal controller and switches it to 120VAC to be sent to the traffic indications). Other than that, everything is basically relays. We do use suppressors and alot of our ethernet equipment but that's about it! Great question!
@@gunnargu It could help, but (a) that would cost a lot more money, and (b) lightning is a hundred million volts and tens of thousands of amps jumping miles through the air. If it decided to go into a traffic light control cabinet, a few meters of isolation isn't going to stop it. I imagine it's far cheaper to simply replace the equipment that gets knocked out by the odd lightning strike than to try to lightning-proof every single traffic light.
@@gunnargu Great point. The design of the cabinet however shares neutrals between all devices. So if lightning can find its way onto the neutral, it can in essence, work its way around the device onto the other side of the opto. I know...who designed this stuff, right??!! 🤷♂ I just work on it lol
@@gunnargu If lightning can hit the mast and LEDs, then it can also hit the controller box since both are presumably powered off the same electric grid. Optically isolating the cabinet won't do much good with the overvoltage still hitting the other way.
I'm just a hobbyist with electronics for about 5 years. But I love learning about infrastructure. Especially seeing the hands on side. Seeing the actual guts of a traffic signal cabinet is fascinating. I didn't expect that it would basically be a computer running linux (it seems). I would have thought maybe something more industrial like a PLU. I would LOVE to see one of these torn down to see the real meat and potatoes of it. I'm doubtful such a video exists, but you never know. People tear down all sorts of crazy elecctronics.
You are correct! That controller is running on Linux. I have another video: "Being Persistent in Troubleshooting" where I'm working on a different type of cabinet and have to drop the backpanel to check things. Might give you a little more insight...Thanks for commenting!
I'm impressed with the engineering in your controller box, a bit perplexed by the different manufacturers of components, though now I have a better understanding of why is a big expense to install traffic signals. Stupid question: are the old relay systems more resilient?
Each manufacturer designs their own specific piece of equipment. You may have several manufacturers of the signal controller, several manufacturers of the battery back up, etc. But most stick to their own product and don't cross over to another product. Not quite like buying all matching appliances in your kitchen with the same brand name... Anyways, YES! NOT A STUPID QUESTION! As with everything--they don't make them like they use to!! Thanks for commenting.
@@jovetj The only stupid question is the one left unasked. An honestly asked question deserves an honest answer, the seeking of knowledge and understanding should never be something to be ashamed of or looked down upon. Anyone railing against an honestly asked question is not worth taking advice from in the first place. Also, asking questions you already know the answer to is a great way to tell if someone is trying to con you. Or at the very least can net some new information, another perspective, or a deeper understanding. Point is, always aske questions ;)
I have found that this industry touches upon so many other industries...radio & fiber communication, networking, computers, electrical, carpentry, programming. Definitely something different every day.
It is alot less maintenance and infrastructure to take care of for the municipality. And they do have their place in traffic control. And as @NickB said below, you have both combined! Great point! and thanks for commenting!
I recall that years ago in the midwest at a busy intersection during a severe thunderstorm, lightning hit a traffic signal and it blew the traffic signal up in pieces. 😲
Definitely! I've seen the results of lightning in many instances. Last major one I remember is a strike that hit a large mast arm signal and blew almost every red led light out (I recall maybe 15 total at the intersection). Also, blew out most of the components in the traffic signal cabinet as well. Lightning = bad. lol. I would have loved to see what you saw. Thanks for commenting!
A few years ago we had a nearby hour from lightning at our church. It was quite amazing what equipment got taken out. I think most was though low voltage stuff like network hardware. But who knows. Digital mixer, camera, network switch, distro amp network port on a PC, video card, monitor. You get the ideas.
I'd like to see an in-depth vid on multi intersection systems. Every one I've encountered, one or another road at an intersection has a longgggg wait..
That blown 4 light head, is that wired up to LS13? Or is it wired to LS4? Trying to "trace" the lightning voltage backwards, this can give insight in how the HV propagated inside cabinet. It seems that some protective circuit blew on LS4 (like a MOV, where the MOV shorts the load switch out which could cause the double indication) which suggest that it might be LS4 that took the biggest hit, but on the other hand, the output disappearing on LS13 due to the BIU blowing out, suggest that the lightning strike was so strong, it blew the MOV totally, and could continue into the BIU and fry that, and also find its way into the controller and fry the communication interface there. Knowing how the HV actually propagated insie a cabinet, can give a valuable insight in what other things might have taken a hit, and needs a more throughly check.
LS13 & LS15 are likely assigned to the pedestrian signal phases. Mainline thru phases are 2 & 6, with cross streets thru phases being 4 & 8. Mainline left turns are 1 & 5, with cross street left turns being 3 & 7.
That 4 section head actually shared 2 load switches (LS 1 -green arrow & LS13 - yel arrow, red arrow, flashing yellow arrow). I believe that may be how the surge got around the cabinet possibly (with help from the BIU). Thanks for commenting Sebastian!
How do you transfer the programming from the old to the new controller? And what would you do if the old controller does not turn on anymore? Are there backups of the programming?
Great questions! Yes, there are multiple ways to transfer the programming...Datakey, USB or the controller database software (Tactics). I store intersection timing onto Tactics. But when you're out on the street, using datakey or USB option is much faster...
Pretty Interesting. I work on Commercial HVACR and teach apprentices. It’s a pretty impressive control system for a normal traffic light. I like how the components are modular and can be easily replaced. What Voltage is used in the cabinets and to the lights? I’m surprised we have not come up with better lighting protection for the cabinets. Thanks for the Videos.
Hey welcome and thanks for the comments! The engineers at least thought about us operational guys when they designed it. Yes, easy hot swappable. In most cabinets, you have 12V, 24VDC & 120VAC. Load switches take the logic from the traffic signal controller and converts it to 120VAC to be sent to the traffic signal indications. There's some surge protection in the cabinet, but nothing that will withstand a lightning strike. Thanks again!
I don't have more than mase knowledge about electrical engineering and definitely not on traffic lights but hey, this is extremely interesting! Proud subscriber, make traffic lights great again!
@streetsmartstraffic Use it as you want! Sorry for the bad spelling and grammar, I'm Swedish. I can help out with typography/design for random merch/websites.
@@HomeAutoBuddy Thanks man! I think I will! I love it! No bad spelling, i understood it perfectly. Good to know about your background. May need you in the future. Much appreciated!!
Love watching your channel, just promoted it in a technical discord i am on... it's fun to see even from the UK, exactly what the guys stood by the intersection (UK junction) are doing with their laptops ...
I thought I responded about 9 days ago...lol Hey Thanks alot! Much appreciated! Hope I can continue to bring content that's engaging. Thanks for commenting!
Its never too late! Truth is we need knowledgeable signal maintainers! Alot of the 'ol timers' are heading out the door and taking their knowledge with them without successors in place. Usually a tech/electrical background is a great foundation. See my other video: How to Become a Signal Tech. Thanks for commenting!
Would mov's connected to the wireing leaving the cab make any difference???????? 1 to plus and ground, 1 side to neg and ground. We had good luck connecting movs to the field wireing of a fire alarm panel like that at a local local military fort.
I've seen where MOV's are terminated on terminals for incoming inductive detection loops. I've also seen the same MOV's cause detection problems when they go bad (I'm guessing because they did their job absorbing a surge). When I say cause problems...the detector card places a constant vehicle call to the traffic signal controller (because the MOV is shorted out and the card thinks there is a car on that loop) and thus the controller want to give a green light for that direction when no one is there. Removing the MOV at that point fixes the problem but until the complaint comes in, the signal runs ineffeciently. Pros and cons to both. But great point! Thanks for adding this comment
It could do it... but it is no where as reliable as the equipment in that cabinet. The lights need to be 100% reliable, with redundancies, and for if there is a conflict or issue, it needs to have multiple redundancies to have it to fail-safe and red-flash everything. Not sure on the power of the loops there, which may be more than a Pi could do too.
This isn't about processing. This is about reliability. Running a signal is a simple sequencer and takes only 1970s computing power. The trick is making it always work because a little bit unreliable is like a little bit pregnant. Your pi is ill suited to this task at best and in reality completely unsuitable. An arduino would be far better.
No surge protection? We install DEHN surge protectors on everything now, granted we are a fairly large electrical contractor and we only do commercial. Hospitals, production plants, local headquarters we have outfitted for various brands, financial institutions, government buildings, logistics buildings, the energy supply side we do aswell we landed a multi million contract to renew the supply of an entire hospital complex a year ago its coming to completion now. They wanted a whole separate building to house the HV side switching and metering, the three transformers and low voltage distribution. Our biggest feeder in there is a 3 phase around 400-500 Amps normal operation. So our customers want the best of the best and know the cost of that. Sufficient surge protection is specified then of course. In the end its probably not worth installing surge protection in traffic lights vs. the cost of having to replace some stuff every now and then.
Wow--thanks for providing your knowledge and insight! DEHN? That sounds like quite a setup that your describe there. Wondering the cost of stuff like that... We have a suppressor in the cabinet on the incoming utility power and some on the ethernet POE equipment. But I think you may be right about cost of protection vs replacement...Thanks for commenting! Interesting!
I loved this video! You had multiple problems and logically tackled them one by one. Also, you didn't fire the parts canon. ( I've seen techs get frustrated and just randomly replace parts until fixed) Good troubleshooting skills! Before you condemn the controller try re-installing Linux and retest at your work shop.
Not a lot of jobs that sound interesting to me, but this looks like one of them. What degrees/certificates/licensures, are needed for this kind of work?
It's always something different! Which is also what I like about it as well! I've never been a cubicle guy (grew up working on a farm) so this gets me out. Although I do get pulled in on the design side of it now, meaning I'm at a desk sometimes...which is also cool. Anyways, traffic signal techs degree/cert run the gauntlet on requirements. It's like the wild west. One agency/contractor/public works may want a degree. Others just want some kind of technical background and are willing to teach you on the job. These days, most employers just want you to show up! Anyways, I created a video "How to become a traffic signal tech". Go check it out. Great question!
Welcome! Yes, UPS are inside a good amount of these cabinets (at least in my region). The UPS's would keep the signal running if it took out utility power. Of course, that's if the strike didn't backfeed somehow and take out the UPS as well! Great question
Thanks! Yea, wasn't too excited about having to swap out bad equipment after only a few months of a brand new signal install. But mother nature doesn't care and is the ultimate equalizer! Thanks for commenting
A surprisingly interesting video recommendation! How much would all of that fried equipment cost to replace? I’m guessing the controller is the most expensive
Lets see...controller = $5000, load switch = $25, BIU = $300, radio + POE (both sent in for repair) = $500 (I think), LED indication ($75/each), detector card = $200. Didn't replace the detector card rack but if I did, that would have been costly as well. Adds up fast!! Thanks for commenting
We have thermostat controlled cabinet fans. The fans kick on and blow the heat out of vents under the top flange of the cabinet. The trick is to have the thermostats set correctly! Great question
At 7:38 on the dead unit you can see something blinking on the yellow, second from the bottom -- on the right side. Maybe it's a single LED inside or a reflection. Just interesting.
VERY OBSERVANT! Yes-your are correct in spotting that. Each LED have circuitry behind the lense. You can see that obviously the LED is not working but there was something still trying to work inside it. Good catch!
Zeus has a bad temper. You get on his bad side, you might as well make sure your will is filled out and your insurance is paid up. I've witnessed internet service and backhaul gear literally blown to pieces by lightning strikes, with wiring still glowing from the blast. Telephone network interface boxes (you know, the ones that hang on your home) get holes blown in them, with the wiring and connectors fused and crystalized from the intense heat. The residential connectors literally fell apart when I touched them!
Its times like this that make me realize how insignificant I am. THat the powers of this earth can do whatever it wants, when it wants! I'm sorry Zeus! LOL
@streetsmartstraffic I keep asking forgiveness, but whatever I did has earned his wrath to last several lifetimes! I've been hit or near hit by at least 4 lightning events. It's a miracle I'm still functional at all.
the huge surges caused by side lightning in the area have made their way into some of the communication lines in the ground and found their way into the cabinet. I don't think it was a direct hit by the main lightning, because in that case the circuit boards would have been blown to pieces, I've seen something similar happen for the passage system to entrance doors with communication cables between the houses. Unfortunately, the more electronics we put in, the more problems we will have in the future ⚡️
Good information. The report was from the police that the mastarm was struck by lightning (by an eyewitness). So, I'm just going off what was stated in the report. Thanks for commenting! Much appreciated!
its like swapping relays in your car trying to figure something electrical out when you swapped them blocks around lol or ignition coils chasing a misfire lol btw i would feel like god if i was you controlling who goes next lol
Great analogy. And yes! Its fun when I'm working at a signal and someone rolls down their window and yells out "Hey, give me a green light!" Then I point at the signal as they're still looking at me and they turn to see it's green for them. The people love me for that. "I will win the crowd, I will give them something they never seen before" (Gladiator reference) LOL!!!
My first time watching a video of this nature.... I'm a biomedical tech, Amatuer radio hobbiest and a full blown geek when it comes to electronics. I'm impressed that anything still functions after a direct hit.... but I have questions regarding all the goes intos and goes outtas.... are they MOV protected? If not.... why not? How long do you trust the system to keep running... I would imagine that some other components in the modules were weakened but not in complete failure mode yet. Do you expect to be back to more problems in the near future? I must also say that I am fascinated by everything I see here in the box, makes me wish I would have taken a different path in life years ago...! Thanks for the video, I'm sure I'll be back for more! Oh one other question.. are the bad modules disposed of or do they get remanufactured?
@@n3qxc Metal Oxide Varistor devices are usually destroyed when they do their job of absorbing a surge. They are a one-and-done type of device intended for utility company voltage surges. Telcos use a gas filled tube that shunts surges to ground but is not damaged and is ready for the next surge. LIGHTENING on the other hand, respects NOTHING‼️The voltage and current is so high that nothing stands a chance. Even with these traffic control cabinets thoroughly grounded, still look at the amount of equipment damage that lightening strike caused.
All great questions. You can get MOV protection. I've seen it on inductive loops terminals if anything. However, I have seen where MOV's caused problems with the detection loops. I guess I just never was too concerned about it. As @BartlettTFD stated below, lightning surges are going to do what they do-which blows out whatever it wants to LOL. Yes, I have made returned trips to traffic signals to fix things. To answer your last question, most equiment is either recylced (if metal) or if not, thrown away. If its a traffic signal controller, conflict monitor or other high dollar item, it gets sent in for repair. Hey, it's never too late! You already have a tech background. Check out my other video: "how to become a signal tech" for more information. Thanks for commenting!
@@streetsmartstraffic When lightning strikes that close, you might get thousands of volts at 10s or 100s of amps induced in a current loop. Like an EMP from an atomic bomb.
Thats interesting to see whats in those boxes And I giggled when you dropped power ..You did a microsoft reset. I used to have a telephone intercom that fried boards all the time. (It connected to every telco line in the apt building). They were discontinued and expensive to replace the boards (had to be sent in for repair) I put a UPS on that unit and it stopped all damage for 5 years ( till I retired). My boss argued that it wouldn't make any difference Showed that assho-e. It saved them thousands...
Yep! Reset and run and we say in the industry. I'm sure your boss apologized and said you were right after the problems went away....lol Thanks for commenting!
@@streetsmartstraffic ....And gave them a high five, and let them merry their daughter. 🤣 As little recognition as it gets, there is something just so damn satisfying about the higher ups in a huddle trying to figure out what to do about something, then sauntering over with some bailing wire, bubble gum, a roll of duct tape, strip wires with your teeth, scotch tape and paper clip splices back together, and getting the damn thing going again. Then sauntering back by the huddle with a "got it goin". Then they look amazed, you tell them "order the parts, dont leave it like that...this bodge is not permanent. It WILL break again" They all nod and walk off...... .....And there is something soul crushing when you come back a month later AND THE BODGE IS STILL THERE!!!!🤬
I've heard CATV and other industries use similiar UPS as the traffic signal industry--just different models. Yes, at the end of the video where I have all the fried components on a smaller cabinet....that's where the batteries are located.
Had the intersection have been controlled by a roundabout no technical issues would be created by lightning or standing water. Traffic lights should be the exception not the rule. So many things to go wrong and so much time wasted sitting at red lights with no one going through the intersection.
I agree that roundabouts do have their place in traffic control. We have a project right now where we are ripping out 2 traffic signals in place of 2 roundabouts... I don't quite understand ripping out existing intersections but I'm not the decision maker on that! Thanks for commenting!
@@uzlonewolf There are always exceptions. Hence why I said traffic lights should be the exception (I believe you just described an exception) rather than the rule. The US is very committed to traffic lights at way too many intersections, the financial cost for the systems is large, never mind that traffic lights are inefficient at traffic flow management and require multilane roads to handle high traffic volumes.
I'm surprised that they don't have any surge protection in there. At least on the data side it should be getting a surge protection device as it enters the box.
We do have some surge protection on the incoming utility power, and also on the ethernet devices that use POE. Our newer cabinets (like the one in the video) has some for the indications. However, those are not rated high enough to take on a lightning strike. Thanks for commenting!
Like your video!! I found other than direct lightning strikes or strikes that like to reverse right up the low resistance path of earth grounding systems -- lightning is notorious for destroying any electronic equipment that utilizes large loops of wire from either intense B fields or EMF coupling, regardless of TVR protection or GDTs. For your ground inductive loops do they interface directly or do they first go through an isolation transformer to help protect them?
Thanks for your input. Our inductive loops connect directly to the terminals from the field. I have seen where MOV's are used at the interface but I have found that they have (in the past) also caused issues with the detection malfunctioning so I don't install them. Great question!
@@streetsmartstraffic Thanks for the information.. yeah, MOVs like many other electronic components can and do fail or have characteristic fluctuations with temperature which may throw off calibrations, measurements etc.. Very interesting though and learned quite a lot with traffic systems thanks
First time I have seen inside that control box. Im surprised how much expensive hardware exists in there. I'm even more surprised that no one has come up with a cheaper system. I know they do a little programming and sense the ground loops and turn on and off lights but I didn't expect it to be that complex of a system. Lightning is no joke. I am surprised the city doesn't have those anti-lightning devices on the poles to prevent this from happening.
@@newmonengineering Really? I didn't think anything prevented direct lightning strikes from doing damage. We have grounding rods in place for each mastarm. But I haven't seen anyone in our industry use them....Curious what the cost it on them? Thanks for sharing that info!
I'm sure there's that much hardware in there to make the whole thing modular so you can easily add to or change the configuration. Plus it makes it more repairable. I'm sure there are also multiple fail safes to prevent say, all lights being stuck on green in an intersection.
@@greendryerlint Yes to everything you said. There were standards put into place many many years ago so that manufacturers had to design their equipment with idea that it had to fit the connectors in the cabinet. Yes, a conflict monitor is the watchdog of the intersection to prevent for example, conflicting greens coming up. Thanks for commenting!
@streetsmartstraffic yes the CMCE lightning suppressors are a current version of Tesla's patent number 1,266,175. It's basically the same thing mentioned in the patent but with a few improvements to it.
so when yall have a burned out controller like than (or any equipment for that matter) do yall do additional testing and try to fix the device or is it junked?
Burnt out controllers (if warrantied) will be sent in for repair. If no warranty, usually the cost to repair can be as much as half the controller. At that point, might as well take that repair cash and put it towards a new one. Great question!
You said that channel 4 on the detector rack is blown out and no longer usable. I am curious, will that rack be replaced? Can it be trusted? Can anything in that cabinet really be trusted after a lightning event like this?
That is why he logged the event in the book. It may be that other gremlins show up in the future. This way, the next technician on site can be informed as to what went on.
Great question! I always try to maximize the use of equipment if I can. To answer your question, yes, it could be replaced. But after watching the operation of it after awhile, I determined it was isolated to just that section of the card rack. On a direct lightning strike I sometimes wonder the same thing (can it be trusted). Many of the components were replaced and as @danlowe8684 stated below, I document all that was done. If it continued to cause issues, then it may warrant replacement. Once again, great question!
The detector amplifiers he swapped are self-tuning and have only a few settings that vary from loop detector to loop detector, depending on function (takes seconds). If he had to replace the main controller, the eprom card can be swapped to the new unit, the timing can be downloaded either via phone line from the office database or laptop on site, or (least liked) the timing can be inputted by hand.
See @danlowe8684 below. In this scenario, there is a datakey (a thumbdrive basically) that had the timing on it already. I just inserted it into the new controller and installed the timing on to it. Takes seconds to do it. Great Question!!
The swapping modules to test to isolate the issue to the components... I wonder if any of them show scorch marks from the energy. Gas lightning arrestors would work, but likely it's cheaper to just replace the components. I agree with the Right To Repair comment... as the only ones who win with it being prevented is the company selling the item, as they get to extort money under the guise of "Intellectual Property"
Yes sir! I guess I'm creating a product I want to be the only one to 'fix the issue'. Whether billing you for the repair of selling you the new product. Capitalism baby!
GREAT question. Mastarms and cabinets are grounded by a #6 ground wire to a 8' ground rod. The problem I have with the spec has us grounding a good portion of it into the foundation that they sit on. I redesigned how we do it to drive the groundrods into all pullboxes where the rods can be fully inserted into the earth (not the foundation). Then create a 'ground field' by connected all rods together at the intersection and running lateral ground wires to each pole (and the cabinet). Hope this made sense....
Thanks for clarifying this. I figured there had to be some type of grounding system. Lightning can still find it's way into electrical equipment regardless of how well it is grounded. It is like water no matter how well a system is sealed water can find its way into a house or whatever.
Lets see...controller = $5000, load switch = $25, BIU = $300, radio + POE (both sent in for repair) = $500 (I think), LED indication ($75/each), detector card = $200. Didn't replace the detector card rack but if I did, that would have been costly as well. Adds up fast!! Thanks for commenting
No, the frame faults in the alarms log directed me to the controler. Frame faults show up when there is a problem with SDLC comm. The controller provides the SDLC. If there was only one specific frame fault, it could be isolated to a component. But since it was littered with tons of frame faults, I looked there first. Great question!!
Hey welcome fellow trafficman! Always good to hear others perspective from the field. I previously held the same beliefs. Some of the problems I found however led back to the cabinet manufacturing (loose wires, terminals not tight). Other times, it was not properly installed in the field (connectors not fully seated onto component). But you're right, it can be finicky. Overall I've come to like it. Thanks for your input!
We have groundrods installed on all mast arms. A new procedure is to have groundrods installed in the pullboxes with ground wires connected to the mastarms . Then groundwires connect from groundrod to groundrod and back to the cabinet creating sort of a 'ground field'. Great question!
They do make ethernet surge protectors standalone for POE that will use the ground of the cable and directly send the lightning down through ground and hopefully protect your switch and other networking gear on the same loop
i wonder what blew in poe. it must have something for smaller surges i don't know what "radio" is. i assume mobile network? i have close experience of lightning damage. not to own equipment, mine has protection and now data uses fiber even, so no comm to mains path anymore but we had common rural links which used alvarion breezeaccess wimax devices which have bridge on mast and poe injector with some leds and reset sw using standard cat5. s(f)tp maybe. grounded. this one wasn't grounded and had overhead link to other building. it blew a pc gw nic there. nic looked ok but machine didn't boot with it. remember, ethernet has like 2.5kv rated transformers there. now caps too but transformers back the. device itself was ok as ground is not really required. i assume it went to line and neutral via anything that was there. 230/400v country so. i didn't look into poe adapter yet but i found what inside of bridge is. this was indirect strike btw. so bridge had entire corner of pcb dedicated to ovp. 3 stages iirc. tvs, gdt, everything, resistors, etc. a proper job. no wonder it took it without a fail here i guess the strike just went directly to pole or was really close and maxed the protections. you can do more but it seems like too expensive here yes, if you have money you can do multi stage protection which works too, up to the point of cables itself melting up lightning is no fun. before when i still had dsl, i recall a snap with no damage. flash outside, snap inside. i had some protection. this isn't country or region with coax to private houses and tv antenna was indoors. and no sat ever. so altho no proper mains protection, part of problem is gone or never existed. that also bite there. multiple conductive paths to box. i wish fibers become more commonplaces there in future. like power to lights and loops and fiber for comms. i guess it's cba issue here. but if you can protect just power, it's hell of a simpler task. see, power even benefits from more capacitive load on it maybe. but all other comms it's a bad thing you need to counter and therefore make it weaker lightning is no joy. fun to think it's just rubbing in the cloud. but those are big. so instead of carpet static shock you get one that kills you
@@roberttrains Surge protectors are useful for voltage spikes that can occur from the utility company. HOWEVER, lightening is MUCH greater than just a spike! In most every case it destroys the POE inserter + everything downstream‼️
As I was told as a child... when you see lightning arc out of outlet, you stop wasting money on "surge protectors" and unplug your shit. (they can protect for small spikes -- a few 1000v -- but the potential from lightning is many orders of magnitude more than that.)
@@ketas Thank you for sharing your knowledge here! Wow-never knew some of the stuff you described here. I feel we ground alot of stuff for the most part in our cabinets. I just always a felt a direct strike to a mastarm would do damage no matter how much protection...Thanks for commenting!
Not much you can do against a direct lightning strike. Hundreds of millions of volts, and tens of thousands of amps, jumping miles through the air. It's probably a testament to good design that everything in the cabinet wasn't fried. I imagine any solution that would be lightning-proof would be far, far more expensive to equip at every traffic light than to just repair the occasional one that gets struck.
@@uzlonewolf well all this can be merged into one box with much less cost: EDI MMU Siemens m60 EDI BIU Then the load switches, EDI 510 (eight of them!), can be replaced with something less costly and easier to diagnose.
That's an excellent question and maybe someone smarter than me can answer it on here but here's my go at it: In essence, traffic signal mastarms and street lighting poles are lightning rods. I think the theory that most arms are grounded by ground rods channels that energy to the ground. It's the cables inside the mastarm that I believe that electrical energy jumps on to and travels back to the cabinet. I'm not an electrical engineer and can't say that in assurity, but I've just seen (like in the video) where it randomely takes out this piece of equipment, but leaves this one alone. While there is some surge protection in the cabinet, it's not strong enough to withstand a lightning strike. So anyway, to answer your question, I think cost may be part of it... Maybe a potential future video??.....
They are battery backup with an automatic transfer switch and an inverter installed in a separate cabinet. You can run it full operation or to extend battery life it can be run on red flash only.
In an upcoming video, i briefly show my hooking up a generator to keep a signal running. But most of our cabinets have battery backups that keep it running. Were you referring to battery backups or actually hooking up a generator?
I would of thought they would of addded a replacable fibre converter to the controller for this reason... a 10gb fibre to copper converter is $50 if buying singles... even once you add on a tiny converter board to expand to the larger pinning, were still under 250 a slot... and thats me over pricing to be safe...
Too bad they don’t make a device that you install to the cabinets that will absorb the lightning and divert it away so the contents don’t get fried. I bet that stuff is expensive
We have some smaller power suppression for the incoming utility power lines. But as you have probably read in some of the comments, sound like there's some stuff out there if you want to really spend the $$$! Thanks for commenting
I don't beleive SDLC have any optical connections. However, the load switches (shown in the video) use optical technology between the logic to higher voltage conversion. Great question!
It's not a PLC. From Siemens website: "The m60 ATC advanced traffic controller is part of a network of Siemens innovations for better traffic management"
Why would the controller fry on a simple lightning strike? I would expect that the driver circuits would be designed to take the blow and protect the rest of the system.
I wish! Controllers these days are babys! They go bad just looking at them the wrong way sometimes lol. Back in the day, controllers would run for 20+ years. These days....thats another story. Part of me think sometimes they were designed that way. Me: "I have a controller that took a surge and isn't working correctly" Manufacturer: "Oh too bad. Here, I'll sell you another one" LOL Good question and thanks for commenting
@@streetsmartstraffic This angers me and makes me want to design those controllers myself! I would include easy diagnostics and schematics/test procedures for driver circuits. If only i could! I'm more of a software/embedded guy and have little to no experience with designing hardware.
@@blinking_dodo You wouldn't sell many because companies do not want to do board level repairs. Time is money to them and they'd rather toss it and buy a new one than have a highly-trained technician spend 30+ minutes trying to repair a circuit board.
@@uzlonewolf It depends on the price of the products. There's a good chance that 30 mins of repair + parts is cheaper than buying a new one. (Don't forget the product can be sold out, company can be bankrupt and shipment could take days if you're out of stock.) @streetsmartstraffic What's your opinion on this?
Unfortunatley, we are in a throw away society. I always try to prolong the life of something. I just hate seeing something end up in a landfill if it can be fixed.
what do they do with parts that fail? if they just toss them,send them to me,.if they allow you to do so. I am an electronics hobiest, who would really enjoy tinkering around with them... let me know, and I'll give you my email....
Back in the day, we would try to fix this stuff. Most of it is placed into the recycle bin. However, some municipalities sell their used stuff on pallets @ govdeals.com. You'll also find it on ebay.com. Govdeals you can usually get stuff for pennies on the dollar...
@streetsmartstraffic control area network protocol. It's used when you have a lot of sensors or switches to deal with on a system instead of using dedicated wires to control each node the same 2 wires usually called can hi and can low are used to control multiple nodes across the network. It helps to eliminate a lot of wire.
back in the early 90's when I was maybe 16 or 17 years old I saw first hand what lightning can do I was probably 40 yards from a sailboat when it got struck by lightning and it scared the crap out of me and it blew the antennas off the boat or incinerated them and blew every almost every electronic thing out on the boat and as I'm thinking about this I was probably closer than the 40 yards maybe even 20 yards away cause the charter boat I was working on was just on the other side of the dock and my boss and I took cover under the boardwalk at John's pass in Florida right before the strike and it was not maybe 5 minutes or so after we got off the charter boat lightning struck the sailboat. I also remember I was with my girlfriend one time and it didn't hit right next to us but it hit pretty close by and were driving by a power pole and just as we were driving by it lightning struck close by and we saw sparks flying off the pole and as you probably know most of poles in Florida are concrete or metal,
When I was a teen, lightning struck close enough to my car when I was driving to kill the FM section of my car radio. Fortunately it was an old car and the only other electronic thing on it was the electronic ignition, which survived. About 10 years ago a coworker with a Ford C-Max was parked under a light pole in our parking lot that got hit. It blasted the fuses out of the light pole and killed the rather expensive transmission control module in his car. Fortunately the warranty covered it. Not sure if he told them it was lightning.
@@streetsmartstraffic yeah and I was actually under the boardwalk with my boss at the time and I kid you not it was probably around 5 minutes or so that we got off the charter boat I was working on and mind you that boat was all metal no fiberglass at all that the lightning struck the sailboat across the dock from the charter boat. Ever since then I've been super careful of lightning. I work at an amusement park back in 98 in the state I live in and I was a ride operator there and if I saw any hint of lightning I shut the ride down before my supervisor said so and of course I got scolded but I said I was wasn't taking any chances when I had close to 30 lives in charge of on a ride and the fact I was almost killed by lightning too.
@@greendryerlint I was out driving with my girlfriend at the time about 33 years ago and lightning struck near by and I saw sparks flying off the telephone pole in Florida an it was like watching fireworks explode.
@@greendryerlint Wow. I've heard stories of misc. equipment that stopped working in vehicles if lightning strikes were close by. Good thing he didn't tell them it was a lightning strike that caused that failure. I'm sure there was a clause in the warranty that said 'acts of God' were not covered! LOL
I am a 73 year old man. This is the first video I have seen of a modern traffic signal controller mechanism with all the modern computerized electronics. I remember seeing the inside of traffic signal controller boxes in the 1960s. They were very different. Back then they had clock motors, rotating camshafts with microswitches and electromechanical relays.
Yes!! And they used punch cards for the phase timing. Very reliable.
Aw yes. When I entered the industry almost 25 yrs ago, I remember there was one or two remaining electromechanical traffic controllers left in the area I covered. I was scared to death when one needed troubleshooting. Cool to see in action but I knew nothing about fixing them LOL. Thanks for the comment!
@@streetsmartstraffic Back in those early years of working on traffic signal controllers, it was probably best to find some old timer in the industry that had worked for years on old style traffic controllers and have him teach you what he knew about the old style traffic controllers. The trouble is when these old timers retire, knowledge about old systems disappears with them. As an example of this in automobiles is that very few mechanics know how to work on carburetors that were in old cars. New young mechanics are afraid of carburetors in classic cars.
73 years YOUNG sir.... and yes, clocks were used here in the UK too. Very early systems used treadles (speed humps with a switch in) for detection. The infrastructure nobody thinks about is always fascinating. Hope you are well
@@davidgrisez Great analogy. We had that ONE guy who knew how to work on those electomechanical controllers. Luckily, before he left, they upgraded the controllers to solid state LOL.
This is why right to repair is so important! Just imagine if he showed up, verified it was broken and then just replaced the entire cabnet. That would be so expensive and wasteful. That's what Apple does when you send them a board with a ripped cable.
Anyway, thank you for your hard work maintaining the devices that help keep our roads safe.
Hey thanks for the kind words! And commenting!
Probably still what will happen with that PLC, unlikely someone will try component level repair on a lightning struck PLC, especially not one that needs to be reliable in unattended operation later.
@@splitprissm9339 Yes, but each module can be easily replaced and troubleshooted without using special tools and proprietary software. Also, nothing is stopping you from buying a new logic chip and hardware for the PLC, it's just against regulations to install an unapproved PLC in a traffic light for the reasons you mentioned.
@@splitprissm9339 I agree. Yep, most likely when that controller is sent in, the repair will be to change out the entire board(s). With electronics, it seems to be the case these days. I'm still one of the 'ol timers' that likes to get down to a component to repair though...although the time spent probably isnt worth it LOL
ALL of your troubleshooting techniques are exactly the same as what we use in the telecom world‼️When you swap cards we call that “frogging” a bad circuit card with a known good circuit card. When you moved the loop service from its bad card slot to a spare card slot to clear the trouble. We call that a “back plane” trouble. The circuit board that has the card connectors soldered to it in the back of the rack. Much of what we do is “frogging” circuit cards, wiring, fiber jumpers, etc. with the hope of isolating that part of a circuit that’s in trouble. I TOTALLY agree with your statement document, document, document what you do. This is invaluable to the tech that comes after you. Prevents needless duplication of troubleshooting efforts.
So many similarities and so interesting👍👍
I always thought the traffic signal industry paralleled other industries. So neat to hear that the troubleshooting procedures mirrored yours. I just learned some new terminology today too LOL. Thanks for adding your knowledge!
telecomms/signalling/process control, all have very similar heritage. A friend just pointed out the form factor of the detector cards is the same as the logic gate format for early digital (vacuum tube) computers... he's right. All designed to sit in a 19" rack
Telecomms typically used taller cards (8U if i recall)
Same for the fire alarm industry.
Telecom tech here. The most valuable information is the telecom graffiti on the back boards.
Telecom/Networking and Audio Visual here... same applies. From an analog signal to a broadcast quality 4K camera, gotta get the power and the 1s and 0s to the right place! When I saw you swapping the cards to troubleshoot/isolate... it put a smile on my face.
Wow. Nobody but you guys appreciate how complex these systems are. And the amount of training and knowledge that you have reminds me of the airbus technician at the airport. I think the Airbus may not be as complicated.
😬🤷♂
About 20 years ago I used to work on point of sale equipment for a large restaurant chain. Lightning struck the strip mall that housed one of our locations. I replaced the power supply for the main computer, 2 dumb terminals, one of the trunk cards in their phone system, a receipt printer, and the wall-wart power supply for their credit card terminal. Their electronic safe was fried and would not open, but I left that one for the locksmith. It could have been worse. There was an array of contractor vans at every store in the strip mall. None of the businesses escaped unscathed. This is an interesting channel and I've subscribed. Glad it popped up in my feed.
Hey Thanks for the sub! Its interesting to hear other industries that deal with lightning strikes. Seems like the damage is all over the board of what it can do. Glad it popped in your feed too!
It's rather interesting how it just randomly seems to pick and choose what to fry out of several identical items, except the example in thinking of had rather spectacular results. (it actually blew several components off of the pcb, along with a rather sizeable black spot.)
Lightning doesn't always follow a human logical path. When it's arcing across things that aren't supposed to be connected, it can be very weird.
I was responding and seen @jfbeam summarized exactly what I wanted to say. If it can find a way, that surge will take out what it wants!
@@jfbeam Thanks! You summarized my thoughts perfectly! Thanks for commenting.
the thing to remember too is even if a device survives it is still compromised, a log should be kept, got lots of examples from my time with computers where stuff got damaged, but failed weeks or months later...
This all assumes you suspect lightning damage in the first place. Many times, we have to troubleshoot without that benefit. Imagine if you open that cabinet and found that many faults on random equipment, what would you think happened?
It's interesting how most of those boards are hot swappable, so you don't have to switch the whole thing off to replace parts. But it makes sense in a mission-critical system such as a traffic light.
Yes, thank goodness the design engineers made it easy for us operational guys to do our work. Comments left here also point to other industries that use similiar designs. Thanks for your comment!
Honestly, thank god for people like you doing these small but important things to keep the world going 'round
Hey thanks! That means alot! Much appreciated!
I once took my daughter (she was like 9 yrs old) to our local city hall and asked if they could explain how the traffic system worked. They were so kind to give her a 10 minute presentation. I was amazed myself but touched that they explained it to her so methodically. Thanks to all of yall that make our civilization across the globe. 🌎
Wow that's awesome. What was better is that they were able to explain it to her to easily grasp the concept. Out of curiosity, where was this at? 2 thumbs up to the people at that city hall!
Thanks for sharing. How cool
@@streetsmartstraffic Amarillo, Tx
I can hear this cabinet whispering... "You can help me by putting in a bunch of SPD's (surge protection devices) to protect all In- and outgoing Wires against Lightning Strikes". But that could be expensive.
I know, I know. We do have some surge protection on the incoming utility power, and also on the ethernet devices that use POE. Our newer cabinets (like the one in the video) has some for the indications. However, those are not rated high enough to take on a lightning strike. I think you're right, the expense may start to add up. Thanks for commenting!
I also thought about isolation faults. Especially the fried loop detection could make a good ground path threw the electronics
@@jani140 Yes sir! I was a little dumbfounded when I found that because it only took out that one small section. It could have taken out the entire circuit board but it didn't. Surges are a weird thing!
After 5 decades of working on radios, televisions & various other electrical/electronic equipment I've found damage from lightning strikes to be unpredictable. Half the time the damage is easy to trace & is logical; the other half it skips, jumps & makes no sense whatsoever... Two identical pieces of equipment sitting adjacent to each other or configured identically in different locations may not have the same outcome from a lightning strike...
Here in Virginia, many intersections utilize television cameras for lane detection. If you come across an intersection with television cameras, I would appreciate seeing how this method of lane detection is implemented. I'm also curious about interconnecting controllers at different intersections using radio/fiber & on to remote monitoring/control.
Keep the great videos coming!
Televison cameras (video) detection you say?? I think I have plenty of intersections to choose from...
Radio or fiber interconnection you say?? Also plenty to choose from...
Remote monitoring/control you say?? You get the point LOL
I'll put it on my list!
Thanks for sharing your insight on what you do. I've always thought the same thing how this stuff can jump around and take out what it wants and leave other things next to it perfectly fine.
Thanks for commenting.
Imagine you're in the middle of swapping boards on a traffic light when you hear a crash...
I've had it happen many times!
Man when lightning messes stuff up it does it real well. Case in point is this cabinet. Did a number on all that equipment you had to replace. Also the thumbnail gives me Undertaker vibes.😅
Undertaker?! LOL I go right to the game when raiden is flying across the screen...HOOPTY!
That controller looks expensive
Yea, I thought that too, so I looked it up and they seam to be between $250 and $400 depending on specific model.
If you buy it used on ebay....When we purchase it new, more like $5k.
It’s a Siemens product. It’s going to be expensive regardless :)
I don’t work with traffic controllers, but Siemens control and pressure equipment in polymer production. Nothing with a Siemens logo is cheap lol 😆
They make good equipment, but it comes with a price
@@farx4070 Yes, I'm told that Siemens (their traffic signal controller line now has been bought out by Yunex) controllers are one of the more expensive in the industry. I know a few other controllers but I try to streamline our products to make it easy if something needs replaced. I hate having several different products sitting in inventory. Something goes down in the cabinet, I know I can grab one item and go! Thanks for sharing your insight!
The "frying", it ain't over yet ... You'll be back!!!
I have a feeling you may be right!
That was very informative on how basic street lighting works and it's hardware - thanks for posting!!
Hey thanks for commenting!! Much appreciated
Great explanation and troubleshooting, as always 👏
Thank you fine sir!
Can literally remake this video once a week during the summer! 😂 great stuff I need your thumbnail skills!!
THanks Traffic Light Doctor! I need your ability for more material frequency! Thanks for commenting. Much appreciated
i literally thought you were the same guy!!! :) so similar and such good content, subbed to both
@@TheChipmunk2008 the main difference is he has 100k subs and i have like 1k LOL
--But he's got great content too!
@@streetsmartstraffic You'll be there in no time!!!
Working in a PC computer shop decades ago, this is absolutely nothing new to me when it comes to strikes. I've seen perfectly healthy looking motherboards, CPUs, video cards, and everything come into the shop dead as a door nail to various degrees. Just a shot mobo, just a shot video card, etc. Single part replacement. But I've also seen the ENTIRE machine just dead. 100% fail. Drives, cards, mobo, CPU... It's crazy what unregulated power can do to an electronic component. {deadpan look}
This depends on how "strong" the lightning strike was. A PSU to a computer, is designed to be able to take a certain hit to its isolation before the isolation fails. Its a requirement to be approved as SELV or PELV supply. A input voltage over this, will break through isolation to a certain degree, BUT a important thing to note, is that due to this isolation, a large part of the lightning strike is "extinguished". This is why just single things break. Video cards are most sensitive to high voltage, so a video card connected to the PSU through the PCIe power supply will usually go first, but a cheaper card just connected to the PCIe slot will usually survive a blast even if just mobo fails.
Then the mobo, its the next sensitive thing.
Then usually drives, as these have a direct connection with the PSU, but drives can usually take bigger of a hit since it has more "tolerant" components.
The CPU usually dies last, its because it has a lot of semiconductors on the way, lots of voltage regulators, coils, capacitors, that will soak up a big portion of the strike before it reaches the CPU, even if its the absolutely most sensitive component of the PC.
I guess when the ATX12VO standard becomes norm, the CPU and other parts of computer will be even more resistant to strikes as there will be even more components in the way for the strike.
@@sebastiannielsen THanks for your knowledge sharing. Much appreciated!
As I've responded to other comments here-Its neat to hear other industries that share similarities to traffic signals (troubleshooting procedures, terminology, etc.) Thanks for sharing!
@@sebastiannielsen It all boils down to, as you said, how strong of a hit, but also what kind of protection is between whatever got struck and what managed to get through the house wiring to the PC (UPS, surge protections, directly plugged into the wall...). It obviously varied from hit to hit, machine to machine.
Depending on the day and the kind of storm we're having around here, I'll go unplug every computer in the house even if most of them are hiding behind a decent UPS. My servers go dark, my internet goes offline... If it weren't for the fact that I don't want spoiled food or melted ice cubes, I'd pull the main breaker to the house. Even then, depending on the strike, electricity is going to do its damnedest to find ground, even if it means having to go through my PC components.
I work for an MSP, notes are our friend, so much so that I keep a notebook on hand for diagramming parts and other observations that I can't put into the ticketing system.
I found that even outside of work, on personal projects, notes are my friend. I recently was pondering if I installed a card in a system I was playing with, flipped the notes, found a note saying I had installed it and the drivers, when was the last time I worked on thing, check the notes.
Oh man! You're speaking my language LOL. I might be a little OCD, but I like to keep notes on stuff outside of work as well. It may be years since I did something, but if I have a date and info, it rejogs my memory quickly...especially since I'm getting older. Thanks for commenting!
Do you ever use fiber optic cable or opto-isolators to electrically insulate separate devices?
The only opto stuff that I'm aware of is inside the load switches (the device that takes the logic on/off output from the traffic signal controller and switches it to 120VAC to be sent to the traffic indications). Other than that, everything is basically relays. We do use suppressors and alot of our ethernet equipment but that's about it!
Great question!
@@streetsmartstraffic well optical doesn't conduct electricity so it can be used to isolate devices electrically, including against lightning.
@@gunnargu It could help, but (a) that would cost a lot more money, and (b) lightning is a hundred million volts and tens of thousands of amps jumping miles through the air. If it decided to go into a traffic light control cabinet, a few meters of isolation isn't going to stop it.
I imagine it's far cheaper to simply replace the equipment that gets knocked out by the odd lightning strike than to try to lightning-proof every single traffic light.
@@gunnargu Great point. The design of the cabinet however shares neutrals between all devices. So if lightning can find its way onto the neutral, it can in essence, work its way around the device onto the other side of the opto. I know...who designed this stuff, right??!! 🤷♂ I just work on it lol
@@gunnargu If lightning can hit the mast and LEDs, then it can also hit the controller box since both are presumably powered off the same electric grid. Optically isolating the cabinet won't do much good with the overvoltage still hitting the other way.
This is a awesome video I’ve always wondered how the traffic signals work now I know cheers
Glad it was of interest. Thanks for the nice comment! Much appreciated!
@@streetsmartstraffic no problem
Same thing here (71) now, looking at improving systems, a good pastime
I have a little ways to go to get there but I already find it fun and a good pastime as well! Thanks for commenting!
Pretty good troubleshooting skills. That panel to the right was very helpfull I see.
Thanks! It was quite the ordeal working thru ech step just to find another issue after the next LOL
Appreciate the comment!
I'm just a hobbyist with electronics for about 5 years. But I love learning about infrastructure. Especially seeing the hands on side. Seeing the actual guts of a traffic signal cabinet is fascinating. I didn't expect that it would basically be a computer running linux (it seems). I would have thought maybe something more industrial like a PLU. I would LOVE to see one of these torn down to see the real meat and potatoes of it. I'm doubtful such a video exists, but you never know. People tear down all sorts of crazy elecctronics.
You are correct! That controller is running on Linux. I have another video: "Being Persistent in Troubleshooting" where I'm working on a different type of cabinet and have to drop the backpanel to check things. Might give you a little more insight...Thanks for commenting!
I'm impressed with the engineering in your controller box, a bit perplexed by the different manufacturers of components, though now I have a better understanding of why is a big expense to install traffic signals.
Stupid question: are the old relay systems more resilient?
Each manufacturer designs their own specific piece of equipment. You may have several manufacturers of the signal controller, several manufacturers of the battery back up, etc. But most stick to their own product and don't cross over to another product. Not quite like buying all matching appliances in your kitchen with the same brand name...
Anyways, YES! NOT A STUPID QUESTION! As with everything--they don't make them like they use to!! Thanks for commenting.
The only "stupid question" is a question you already know the answer to, but ask anyway. I'll bet you didn't know the answer to that one.
@@jovetj The only stupid question is the one left unasked. An honestly asked question deserves an honest answer, the seeking of knowledge and understanding should never be something to be ashamed of or looked down upon. Anyone railing against an honestly asked question is not worth taking advice from in the first place.
Also, asking questions you already know the answer to is a great way to tell if someone is trying to con you. Or at the very least can net some new information, another perspective, or a deeper understanding.
Point is, always aske questions ;)
When IW as A Kid I Had Siemens MC60 :D
Cool! Thanks for chiming in!
@@streetsmartstraffic I Snoop Around Sometimes In Places I Have Interest In..
@@frequencywatchers Awesome! Well welcome!
Traffic light controller equipment is pretty fascinating
I have found that this industry touches upon so many other industries...radio & fiber communication, networking, computers, electrical, carpentry, programming. Definitely something different every day.
I have noticed a lot of municipalities are installing roundabouts instead of traffic lights.
In Britain we have roundabouts with traffic lights on them.
It is alot less maintenance and infrastructure to take care of for the municipality. And they do have their place in traffic control. And as @NickB said below, you have both combined! Great point! and thanks for commenting!
@@NickB Thanks for sharing that bit of information!
Isn't lightning and outdoor electrics fun? Greetings from Florida...where I've seen more lightning repairs than I care to.
I recall that years ago in the midwest at a busy intersection during a severe thunderstorm, lightning hit a traffic signal and it blew the traffic signal up in pieces. 😲
Definitely! I've seen the results of lightning in many instances. Last major one I remember is a strike that hit a large mast arm signal and blew almost every red led light out (I recall maybe 15 total at the intersection). Also, blew out most of the components in the traffic signal cabinet as well. Lightning = bad. lol. I would have loved to see what you saw. Thanks for commenting!
A few years ago we had a nearby hour from lightning at our church. It was quite amazing what equipment got taken out. I think most was though low voltage stuff like network hardware. But who knows. Digital mixer, camera, network switch, distro amp network port on a PC, video card, monitor. You get the ideas.
It adds up fast don't it?! Lightning = Bad!!
TIL that SDLC isnt just used by dinosaur mainframe computers.
Not the same thing except in name 😁
@@lasersimonjohnson so, not a synchronous serial data link at all?
These are considered 'upgraded' cabinets too! LOL
You have remind how many time to learn this data protocol (IBM3270 terminals) and customers analysis issues!
@@ChiefBridgeFuser no.
Here it stands for....
Siemens Data Link Connection and used RS485 or CAN depending on versions
I'd like to see an in-depth vid on multi intersection systems. Every one I've encountered, one or another road at an intersection has a longgggg wait..
IF designed correctly, interconnectivity by fiber or radio or twisted pair wire can be accomplished. Got your requests on my list of videos!
That blown 4 light head, is that wired up to LS13? Or is it wired to LS4? Trying to "trace" the lightning voltage backwards, this can give insight in how the HV propagated inside cabinet. It seems that some protective circuit blew on LS4 (like a MOV, where the MOV shorts the load switch out which could cause the double indication) which suggest that it might be LS4 that took the biggest hit, but on the other hand, the output disappearing on LS13 due to the BIU blowing out, suggest that the lightning strike was so strong, it blew the MOV totally, and could continue into the BIU and fry that, and also find its way into the controller and fry the communication interface there.
Knowing how the HV actually propagated insie a cabinet, can give a valuable insight in what other things might have taken a hit, and needs a more throughly check.
LS13 & LS15 are likely assigned to the pedestrian signal phases. Mainline thru phases are 2 & 6, with cross streets thru phases being 4 & 8. Mainline left turns are 1 & 5, with cross street left turns being 3 & 7.
That 4 section head actually shared 2 load switches (LS 1 -green arrow & LS13 - yel arrow, red arrow, flashing yellow arrow).
I believe that may be how the surge got around the cabinet possibly (with help from the BIU). Thanks for commenting Sebastian!
How do you transfer the programming from the old to the new controller? And what would you do if the old controller does not turn on anymore? Are there backups of the programming?
Great questions! Yes, there are multiple ways to transfer the programming...Datakey, USB or the controller database software (Tactics). I store intersection timing onto Tactics. But when you're out on the street, using datakey or USB option is much faster...
Good Ole swaptronics. Cool vid!
Alot of swaptronics in this video....Thanks for commenting!
Pretty Interesting. I work on Commercial HVACR and teach apprentices. It’s a pretty impressive control system for a normal traffic light. I like how the components are modular and can be easily replaced. What Voltage is used in the cabinets and to the lights? I’m surprised we have not come up with better lighting protection for the cabinets. Thanks for the Videos.
Hey welcome and thanks for the comments! The engineers at least thought about us operational guys when they designed it. Yes, easy hot swappable. In most cabinets, you have 12V, 24VDC & 120VAC. Load switches take the logic from the traffic signal controller and converts it to 120VAC to be sent to the traffic signal indications. There's some surge protection in the cabinet, but nothing that will withstand a lightning strike. Thanks again!
I don't have more than mase knowledge about electrical engineering and definitely not on traffic lights but hey, this is extremely interesting!
Proud subscriber, make traffic lights great again!
Hey thanks alot! 'Make Traffic Lights Great Again'? ....I love it! Maybe a slogan I'll start using in my videos....🤣
@streetsmartstraffic Use it as you want!
Sorry for the bad spelling and grammar, I'm Swedish. I can help out with typography/design for random merch/websites.
@@HomeAutoBuddy Thanks man! I think I will! I love it! No bad spelling, i understood it perfectly. Good to know about your background. May need you in the future. Much appreciated!!
@@streetsmartstraffic Enjoy! And as always and for now, let's make traffic lights great again!
Love watching your channel, just promoted it in a technical discord i am on... it's fun to see even from the UK, exactly what the guys stood by the intersection (UK junction) are doing with their laptops ...
I thought I responded about 9 days ago...lol Hey Thanks alot! Much appreciated! Hope I can continue to bring content that's engaging. Thanks for commenting!
Cool video. Very intesting stuff going on there. Kinda makes me wanna change my career.
Its never too late! Truth is we need knowledgeable signal maintainers! Alot of the 'ol timers' are heading out the door and taking their knowledge with them without successors in place. Usually a tech/electrical background is a great foundation. See my other video: How to Become a Signal Tech.
Thanks for commenting!
Would mov's connected to the wireing leaving the cab make any difference???????? 1 to plus and ground, 1 side to neg and ground. We had good luck connecting movs to the field wireing of a fire alarm panel like that at a local local military fort.
I've seen where MOV's are terminated on terminals for incoming inductive detection loops. I've also seen the same MOV's cause detection problems when they go bad (I'm guessing because they did their job absorbing a surge). When I say cause problems...the detector card places a constant vehicle call to the traffic signal controller (because the MOV is shorted out and the card thinks there is a car on that loop) and thus the controller want to give a green light for that direction when no one is there. Removing the MOV at that point fixes the problem but until the complaint comes in, the signal runs ineffeciently. Pros and cons to both. But great point! Thanks for adding this comment
You don't have to wait for the tubes to warm up.
I work in industrial automation, I’m jealous that all the modules just pull out😂
What?! No hot swappable modules?! Time for a redesign! lol
All of that equipment for something a raspberry pi could do with some solid state relays.
Thats what I keep hearing! lol
Like an organized rube Goldberg system 😂
It could do it... but it is no where as reliable as the equipment in that cabinet. The lights need to be 100% reliable, with redundancies, and for if there is a conflict or issue, it needs to have multiple redundancies to have it to fail-safe and red-flash everything.
Not sure on the power of the loops there, which may be more than a Pi could do too.
This isn't about processing. This is about reliability. Running a signal is a simple sequencer and takes only 1970s computing power. The trick is making it always work because a little bit unreliable is like a little bit pregnant. Your pi is ill suited to this task at best and in reality completely unsuitable. An arduino would be far better.
@@wolphin732 Everyone keeps telling me a Raspberry Pi can do it but I still haven't seen anyone create it! LOL
The good ol turn-off turn-on move.
Oh man! You knew that move too?? LOL
No surge protection?
We install DEHN surge protectors on everything now, granted we are a fairly large electrical contractor and we only do commercial.
Hospitals, production plants, local headquarters we have outfitted for various brands, financial institutions, government buildings, logistics buildings, the energy supply side we do aswell we landed a multi million contract to renew the supply of an entire hospital complex a year ago its coming to completion now. They wanted a whole separate building to house the HV side switching and metering, the three transformers and low voltage distribution. Our biggest feeder in there is a 3 phase around 400-500 Amps normal operation.
So our customers want the best of the best and know the cost of that. Sufficient surge protection is specified then of course.
In the end its probably not worth installing surge protection in traffic lights vs. the cost of having to replace some stuff every now and then.
Wow--thanks for providing your knowledge and insight! DEHN? That sounds like quite a setup that your describe there. Wondering the cost of stuff like that... We have a suppressor in the cabinet on the incoming utility power and some on the ethernet POE equipment. But I think you may be right about cost of protection vs replacement...Thanks for commenting! Interesting!
I loved this video! You had multiple problems and logically tackled them one by one. Also, you didn't fire the parts canon. ( I've seen techs get frustrated and just randomly replace parts until fixed) Good troubleshooting skills! Before you condemn the controller try re-installing Linux and retest at your work shop.
Hey Mike! Thanks! Well, I think it's already been sent in for repair....😬
I see an alarm light on your FXM-1100 also, I would expect that unit to be the first point of failure in a lightning strike.
Great eye. I forgot we actually had this FXM-1100 (UPS unit) with a fault prior to the strike. You just reminded me to follow up on this! LOL
Thanks!!
Not a lot of jobs that sound interesting to me, but this looks like one of them. What degrees/certificates/licensures, are needed for this kind of work?
It's always something different! Which is also what I like about it as well! I've never been a cubicle guy (grew up working on a farm) so this gets me out. Although I do get pulled in on the design side of it now, meaning I'm at a desk sometimes...which is also cool.
Anyways, traffic signal techs degree/cert run the gauntlet on requirements. It's like the wild west. One agency/contractor/public works may want a degree. Others just want some kind of technical background and are willing to teach you on the job. These days, most employers just want you to show up!
Anyways, I created a video "How to become a traffic signal tech". Go check it out.
Great question!
First time watching. Do these use any ups's or would that not do anything with a lightning strike?
Welcome! Yes, UPS are inside a good amount of these cabinets (at least in my region). The UPS's would keep the signal running if it took out utility power. Of course, that's if the strike didn't backfeed somehow and take out the UPS as well! Great question
"I pity the fool who doesn't document what they do." - Mr. T, probably...
Right on Mr. T!!! I pity them too! lol
Very nice video! Shame about the equipment. Lightning is evil!
Thanks! Yea, wasn't too excited about having to swap out bad equipment after only a few months of a brand new signal install. But mother nature doesn't care and is the ultimate equalizer! Thanks for commenting
A surprisingly interesting video recommendation! How much would all of that fried equipment cost to replace? I’m guessing the controller is the most expensive
Lets see...controller = $5000, load switch = $25, BIU = $300, radio + POE (both sent in for repair) = $500 (I think), LED indication ($75/each), detector card = $200. Didn't replace the detector card rack but if I did, that would have been costly as well. Adds up fast!!
Thanks for commenting
How do all the electronic devices in that cabinet not overheat with the summer sun beaming on the metal cabinet?
We have thermostat controlled cabinet fans. The fans kick on and blow the heat out of vents under the top flange of the cabinet. The trick is to have the thermostats set correctly! Great question
At 7:38 on the dead unit you can see something blinking on the yellow, second from the bottom -- on the right side. Maybe it's a single LED inside or a reflection. Just interesting.
VERY OBSERVANT! Yes-your are correct in spotting that. Each LED have circuitry behind the lense. You can see that obviously the LED is not working but there was something still trying to work inside it. Good catch!
Zeus has a bad temper. You get on his bad side, you might as well make sure your will is filled out and your insurance is paid up. I've witnessed internet service and backhaul gear literally blown to pieces by lightning strikes, with wiring still glowing from the blast. Telephone network interface boxes (you know, the ones that hang on your home) get holes blown in them, with the wiring and connectors fused and crystalized from the intense heat. The residential connectors literally fell apart when I touched them!
Its times like this that make me realize how insignificant I am. THat the powers of this earth can do whatever it wants, when it wants!
I'm sorry Zeus! LOL
@streetsmartstraffic I keep asking forgiveness, but whatever I did has earned his wrath to last several lifetimes!
I've been hit or near hit by at least 4 lightning events. It's a miracle I'm still functional at all.
the huge surges caused by side lightning in the area have made their way into some of the communication lines in the ground and found their way into the cabinet. I don't think it was a direct hit by the main lightning, because in that case the circuit boards would have been blown to pieces, I've seen something similar happen for the passage system to entrance doors with communication cables between the houses. Unfortunately, the more electronics we put in, the more problems we will have in the future ⚡️
Good information. The report was from the police that the mastarm was struck by lightning (by an eyewitness). So, I'm just going off what was stated in the report.
Thanks for commenting! Much appreciated!
its like swapping relays in your car trying to figure something electrical out when you swapped them blocks around lol or ignition coils chasing a misfire lol btw i would feel like god if i was you controlling who goes next lol
Great analogy. And yes! Its fun when I'm working at a signal and someone rolls down their window and yells out "Hey, give me a green light!" Then I point at the signal as they're still looking at me and they turn to see it's green for them. The people love me for that. "I will win the crowd, I will give them something they never seen before" (Gladiator reference) LOL!!!
My first time watching a video of this nature.... I'm a biomedical tech, Amatuer radio hobbiest and a full blown geek when it comes to electronics. I'm impressed that anything still functions after a direct hit.... but I have questions regarding all the goes intos and goes outtas.... are they MOV protected? If not.... why not? How long do you trust the system to keep running... I would imagine that some other components in the modules were weakened but not in complete failure mode yet. Do you expect to be back to more problems in the near future? I must also say that I am fascinated by everything I see here in the box, makes me wish I would have taken a different path in life years ago...! Thanks for the video, I'm sure I'll be back for more! Oh one other question.. are the bad modules disposed of or do they get remanufactured?
@@n3qxc Metal Oxide Varistor devices are usually destroyed when they do their job of absorbing a surge. They are a one-and-done type of device intended for utility company voltage surges.
Telcos use a gas filled tube that shunts surges to ground but is not damaged and is ready for the next surge.
LIGHTENING on the other hand, respects NOTHING‼️The voltage and current is so high that nothing stands a chance. Even with these traffic control cabinets thoroughly grounded, still look at the amount of equipment damage that lightening strike caused.
All great questions. You can get MOV protection. I've seen it on inductive loops terminals if anything. However, I have seen where MOV's caused problems with the detection loops. I guess I just never was too concerned about it. As @BartlettTFD stated below, lightning surges are going to do what they do-which blows out whatever it wants to LOL.
Yes, I have made returned trips to traffic signals to fix things.
To answer your last question, most equiment is either recylced (if metal) or if not, thrown away. If its a traffic signal controller, conflict monitor or other high dollar item, it gets sent in for repair.
Hey, it's never too late! You already have a tech background. Check out my other video: "how to become a signal tech" for more information.
Thanks for commenting!
@@BartlettTFD Thanks for helping answer that! Much appreciated!
@@streetsmartstraffic When lightning strikes that close, you might get thousands of volts at 10s or 100s of amps induced in a current loop. Like an EMP from an atomic bomb.
You can't outrun the spicy finger of mother nature it's like water it will win 😊
Agreed!
Thats interesting to see whats in those boxes And I giggled when you dropped power ..You did a microsoft reset. I used to have a telephone intercom that fried boards all the time. (It connected to every telco line in the apt building). They were discontinued and expensive to replace the boards (had to be sent in for repair) I put a UPS on that unit and it stopped all damage for 5 years ( till I retired). My boss argued that it wouldn't make any difference Showed that assho-e. It saved them thousands...
Yep! Reset and run and we say in the industry. I'm sure your boss apologized and said you were right after the problems went away....lol
Thanks for commenting!
@@streetsmartstraffic ....And gave them a high five, and let them merry their daughter. 🤣
As little recognition as it gets, there is something just so damn satisfying about the higher ups in a huddle trying to figure out what to do about something, then sauntering over with some bailing wire, bubble gum, a roll of duct tape, strip wires with your teeth, scotch tape and paper clip splices back together, and getting the damn thing going again. Then sauntering back by the huddle with a "got it goin". Then they look amazed, you tell them "order the parts, dont leave it like that...this bodge is not permanent. It WILL break again" They all nod and walk off......
.....And there is something soul crushing when you come back a month later AND THE BODGE IS STILL THERE!!!!🤬
Awesome stuff
Thanks for commenting!
That Alpha UPS power supply looks a lot like my CATV units. Is there also batteries in the other cabinet?
I've heard CATV and other industries use similiar UPS as the traffic signal industry--just different models. Yes, at the end of the video where I have all the fried components on a smaller cabinet....that's where the batteries are located.
Had the intersection have been controlled by a roundabout no technical issues would be created by lightning or standing water.
Traffic lights should be the exception not the rule. So many things to go wrong and so much time wasted sitting at red lights with no one going through the intersection.
I agree that roundabouts do have their place in traffic control. We have a project right now where we are ripping out 2 traffic signals in place of 2 roundabouts...
I don't quite understand ripping out existing intersections but I'm not the decision maker on that!
Thanks for commenting!
Roundabouts are great when 2 mostly equal low-speed roads meet. They're terrible when a tiny low-traffic road meets a large, fast multi-lane road.
@@uzlonewolf There are always exceptions. Hence why I said traffic lights should be the exception (I believe you just described an exception) rather than the rule. The US is very committed to traffic lights at way too many intersections, the financial cost for the systems is large, never mind that traffic lights are inefficient at traffic flow management and require multilane roads to handle high traffic volumes.
I'm surprised that they don't have any surge protection in there. At least on the data side it should be getting a surge protection device as it enters the box.
We do have some surge protection on the incoming utility power, and also on the ethernet devices that use POE. Our newer cabinets (like the one in the video) has some for the indications. However, those are not rated high enough to take on a lightning strike. Thanks for commenting!
It’s still impressive what little damage there was.
Like your video!! I found other than direct lightning strikes or strikes that like to reverse right up the low resistance path of earth grounding systems -- lightning is notorious for destroying any electronic equipment that utilizes large loops of wire from either intense B fields or EMF coupling, regardless of TVR protection or GDTs. For your ground inductive loops do they interface directly or do they first go through an isolation transformer to help protect them?
Thanks for your input. Our inductive loops connect directly to the terminals from the field. I have seen where MOV's are used at the interface but I have found that they have (in the past) also caused issues with the detection malfunctioning so I don't install them. Great question!
@@streetsmartstraffic Thanks for the information.. yeah, MOVs like many other electronic components can and do fail or have characteristic fluctuations with temperature which may throw off calibrations, measurements etc.. Very interesting though and learned quite a lot with traffic systems thanks
@@fjs1111 Thanks again for commenting. Good information you're providing as well!
@@streetsmartstraffic thanks look forward to more videos
First time I have seen inside that control box. Im surprised how much expensive hardware exists in there. I'm even more surprised that no one has come up with a cheaper system. I know they do a little programming and sense the ground loops and turn on and off lights but I didn't expect it to be that complex of a system. Lightning is no joke. I am surprised the city doesn't have those anti-lightning devices on the poles to prevent this from happening.
CMCE lightening suppressors work and will basically prevent this issue once installed
@@newmonengineering Really? I didn't think anything prevented direct lightning strikes from doing damage. We have grounding rods in place for each mastarm. But I haven't seen anyone in our industry use them....Curious what the cost it on them? Thanks for sharing that info!
I'm sure there's that much hardware in there to make the whole thing modular so you can easily add to or change the configuration. Plus it makes it more repairable. I'm sure there are also multiple fail safes to prevent say, all lights being stuck on green in an intersection.
@@greendryerlint Yes to everything you said. There were standards put into place many many years ago so that manufacturers had to design their equipment with idea that it had to fit the connectors in the cabinet.
Yes, a conflict monitor is the watchdog of the intersection to prevent for example, conflicting greens coming up.
Thanks for commenting!
@streetsmartstraffic yes the CMCE lightning suppressors are a current version of Tesla's patent number 1,266,175. It's basically the same thing mentioned in the patent but with a few improvements to it.
if you look real close there is a setting called speed traps yea that is a little suspect
ah man! You saw that! Dang LOL
Awesome info how it all works 😀
Thanks for the kind comment!
so when yall have a burned out controller like than (or any equipment for that matter) do yall do additional testing and try to fix the device or is it junked?
Burnt out controllers (if warrantied) will be sent in for repair. If no warranty, usually the cost to repair can be as much as half the controller. At that point, might as well take that repair cash and put it towards a new one. Great question!
Hey thanks alot! Much appreciated!
A simple computer could do all that. But that wouldn't rip off taxpayers enough.
Yeah, everyone keeps telling me they could do it with a RaspberryPi but no one has shown me yet! Your second statement has more merit! LOL
You said that channel 4 on the detector rack is blown out and no longer usable. I am curious, will that rack be replaced? Can it be trusted? Can anything in that cabinet really be trusted after a lightning event like this?
That is why he logged the event in the book. It may be that other gremlins show up in the future. This way, the next technician on site can be informed as to what went on.
Great question! I always try to maximize the use of equipment if I can. To answer your question, yes, it could be replaced. But after watching the operation of it after awhile, I determined it was isolated to just that section of the card rack. On a direct lightning strike I sometimes wonder the same thing (can it be trusted). Many of the components were replaced and as @danlowe8684 stated below, I document all that was done. If it continued to cause issues, then it may warrant replacement. Once again, great question!
@@danlowe8684 Thanks for adding that comment! You hit it on the head!
How do you swap controllers so quickly? Is there a transfer of the programming somehow?
The detector amplifiers he swapped are self-tuning and have only a few settings that vary from loop detector to loop detector, depending on function (takes seconds). If he had to replace the main controller, the eprom card can be swapped to the new unit, the timing can be downloaded either via phone line from the office database or laptop on site, or (least liked) the timing can be inputted by hand.
See @danlowe8684 below. In this scenario, there is a datakey (a thumbdrive basically) that had the timing on it already. I just inserted it into the new controller and installed the timing on to it. Takes seconds to do it. Great Question!!
The swapping modules to test to isolate the issue to the components... I wonder if any of them show scorch marks from the energy. Gas lightning arrestors would work, but likely it's cheaper to just replace the components.
I agree with the Right To Repair comment... as the only ones who win with it being prevented is the company selling the item, as they get to extort money under the guise of "Intellectual Property"
Yes sir! I guess I'm creating a product I want to be the only one to 'fix the issue'. Whether billing you for the repair of selling you the new product. Capitalism baby!
How are your boxes grounded? Is there any lightning arresting equipment installed?
GREAT question. Mastarms and cabinets are grounded by a #6 ground wire to a 8' ground rod. The problem I have with the spec has us grounding a good portion of it into the foundation that they sit on. I redesigned how we do it to drive the groundrods into all pullboxes where the rods can be fully inserted into the earth (not the foundation). Then create a 'ground field' by connected all rods together at the intersection and running lateral ground wires to each pole (and the cabinet). Hope this made sense....
Thanks for clarifying this. I figured there had to be some type of grounding system. Lightning can still find it's way into electrical equipment regardless of how well it is grounded. It is like water no matter how well a system is sealed water can find its way into a house or whatever.
What did that cost to fix in parts, not counting labor?
Lets see...controller = $5000, load switch = $25, BIU = $300, radio + POE (both sent in for repair) = $500 (I think), LED indication ($75/each), detector card = $200. Didn't replace the detector card rack but if I did, that would have been costly as well. Adds up fast!!
Thanks for commenting
I thought the problem persisted after swapping out the controller. Wouldn't that mean the original controller is probably still good?
No, the frame faults in the alarms log directed me to the controler. Frame faults show up when there is a problem with SDLC comm. The controller provides the SDLC. If there was only one specific frame fault, it could be isolated to a component. But since it was littered with tons of frame faults, I looked there first. Great question!!
@@streetsmartstraffic Ah, I see. I guess I missed that. Thanks! :]
@@CharlesVanNoland Yes sir! Great question because I know if you're asking that, 10 others are asking the same question! Thanks!
Worked in the industry for 30 years. Never liked the SDLC setup. Just seems to propagate problems through the whole cabinet.
Hey welcome fellow trafficman! Always good to hear others perspective from the field. I previously held the same beliefs. Some of the problems I found however led back to the cabinet manufacturing (loose wires, terminals not tight). Other times, it was not properly installed in the field (connectors not fully seated onto component). But you're right, it can be finicky. Overall I've come to like it. Thanks for your input!
@@streetsmartstraffic I am retired now. Good to hear you saying to check all the wire connections. A lot of techs seem to over look that.
You’d think they’d be able to do it all off an iPhone, just put an iPhone in the cabinet.
Can we use your iPhone?
Do the metal poles that hold the traffic signals have ground rods or are they grounded somehow being cemented in the ground?
They are grounded but lightning does as it wishes.
Contrary to the common saying, electricity follows *ALL* paths to ground.
We have groundrods installed on all mast arms. A new procedure is to have groundrods installed in the pullboxes with ground wires connected to the mastarms . Then groundwires connect from groundrod to groundrod and back to the cabinet creating sort of a 'ground field'. Great question!
They do make ethernet surge protectors standalone for POE that will use the ground of the cable and directly send the lightning down through ground and hopefully protect your switch and other networking gear on the same loop
i wonder what blew in poe. it must have something for smaller surges
i don't know what "radio" is. i assume mobile network?
i have close experience of lightning damage. not to own equipment, mine has protection and now data uses fiber even, so no comm to mains path anymore
but we had common rural links which used alvarion breezeaccess wimax devices which have bridge on mast and poe injector with some leds and reset sw using standard cat5. s(f)tp maybe. grounded. this one wasn't grounded and had overhead link to other building. it blew a pc gw nic there. nic looked ok but machine didn't boot with it. remember, ethernet has like 2.5kv rated transformers there. now caps too but transformers back the. device itself was ok as ground is not really required. i assume it went to line and neutral via anything that was there. 230/400v country
so. i didn't look into poe adapter yet but i found what inside of bridge is. this was indirect strike btw. so bridge had entire corner of pcb dedicated to ovp. 3 stages iirc. tvs, gdt, everything, resistors, etc. a proper job. no wonder it took it without a fail
here i guess the strike just went directly to pole or was really close and maxed the protections. you can do more but it seems like too expensive here
yes, if you have money you can do multi stage protection which works too, up to the point of cables itself melting up
lightning is no fun. before when i still had dsl, i recall a snap with no damage. flash outside, snap inside. i had some protection. this isn't country or region with coax to private houses and tv antenna was indoors. and no sat ever. so altho no proper mains protection, part of problem is gone or never existed. that also bite there. multiple conductive paths to box. i wish fibers become more commonplaces there in future. like power to lights and loops and fiber for comms. i guess it's cba issue here. but if you can protect just power, it's hell of a simpler task. see, power even benefits from more capacitive load on it maybe. but all other comms it's a bad thing you need to counter and therefore make it weaker
lightning is no joy. fun to think it's just rubbing in the cloud. but those are big. so instead of carpet static shock you get one that kills you
@@roberttrains Surge protectors are useful for voltage spikes that can occur from the utility company. HOWEVER, lightening is MUCH greater than just a spike! In most every case it destroys the POE inserter + everything downstream‼️
As I was told as a child... when you see lightning arc out of outlet, you stop wasting money on "surge protectors" and unplug your shit. (they can protect for small spikes -- a few 1000v -- but the potential from lightning is many orders of magnitude more than that.)
@@ketas Thank you for sharing your knowledge here! Wow-never knew some of the stuff you described here. I feel we ground alot of stuff for the most part in our cabinets. I just always a felt a direct strike to a mastarm would do damage no matter how much protection...Thanks for commenting!
@@BartlettTFD Thanks for sharing again. That's what my thoughts always were as well
That's a lot of equipment. I'm sure it's possible to reduce it to something more reliable.
Not much you can do against a direct lightning strike. Hundreds of millions of volts, and tens of thousands of amps, jumping miles through the air.
It's probably a testament to good design that everything in the cabinet wasn't fried.
I imagine any solution that would be lightning-proof would be far, far more expensive to equip at every traffic light than to just repair the occasional one that gets struck.
Yes it is.
It's called a roundabout.
It actually looks pretty minimalist to me, I don't see anything which could be removed without hurting reliability.
@@uzlonewolf well all this can be merged into one box with much less cost:
EDI MMU
Siemens m60
EDI BIU
Then the load switches, EDI 510 (eight of them!), can be replaced with something less costly and easier to diagnose.
And why do we not put lightning rods on those poles?
That's an excellent question and maybe someone smarter than me can answer it on here but here's my go at it:
In essence, traffic signal mastarms and street lighting poles are lightning rods. I think the theory that most arms are grounded by ground rods channels that energy to the ground. It's the cables inside the mastarm that I believe that electrical energy jumps on to and travels back to the cabinet. I'm not an electrical engineer and can't say that in assurity, but I've just seen (like in the video) where it randomely takes out this piece of equipment, but leaves this one alone.
While there is some surge protection in the cabinet, it's not strong enough to withstand a lightning strike.
So anyway, to answer your question, I think cost may be part of it... Maybe a potential future video??.....
Don't know if you have a video on this but could you show us how a generator back up traffic light works
They are battery backup with an automatic transfer switch and an inverter installed in a separate cabinet. You can run it full operation or to extend battery life it can be run on red flash only.
@@danlowe8684 Thanks for all your comments! I need to hire you LOL
In an upcoming video, i briefly show my hooking up a generator to keep a signal running. But most of our cabinets have battery backups that keep it running. Were you referring to battery backups or actually hooking up a generator?
I would of thought they would of addded a replacable fibre converter to the controller for this reason... a 10gb fibre to copper converter is $50 if buying singles... even once you add on a tiny converter board to expand to the larger pinning, were still under 250 a slot... and thats me over pricing to be safe...
It's 'would have' or 'would've', never 'would of'
You underestimated certification by large...
good
Thanks!
Too bad they don’t make a device that you install to the cabinets that will absorb the lightning and divert it away so the contents don’t get fried. I bet that stuff is expensive
We have some smaller power suppression for the incoming utility power lines. But as you have probably read in some of the comments, sound like there's some stuff out there if you want to really spend the $$$! Thanks for commenting
They dont have lightning arrestors or something like that to help avoid those issues?
Yes, but lightning goes where it wants, when it wants!!
We have grounding and surge suppressors but lightning seems to find any path it can, which will jump on to other wires that are the weaker link.
I wonder if those SDLC connections would be better off to be optical? Is that a thing?
I don't beleive SDLC have any optical connections. However, the load switches (shown in the video) use optical technology between the logic to higher voltage conversion. Great question!
@@streetsmartstraffic Just convert it to MIDI! LOL!!
@@jovetj MIDI for the win! lol
@@streetsmartstraffic (For those that don't know, MIDI connections are opto-isolated.)
@@jovetj Thank you for clarifying that for everyone. Much appreciated!
I’m amazed it uses a full PLC rather than a purpose-built embedded system!
It's not a PLC. From Siemens website: "The m60 ATC advanced traffic controller is part of a network of Siemens innovations for better traffic management"
2.4 GHz broadband ? Or 900 MHz ?
I believe this is the 900MHz model
Linux, ftw! 😎
Right! LOL
Where does y'all fried equipment end up trying to find a good place for junk electronics for my gold recovery
If its warrantied still, it gets sent in for repair. If not, then it end up in the recylce bin. Great question!
Why would the controller fry on a simple lightning strike?
I would expect that the driver circuits would be designed to take the blow and protect the rest of the system.
I wish! Controllers these days are babys! They go bad just looking at them the wrong way sometimes lol. Back in the day, controllers would run for 20+ years. These days....thats another story. Part of me think sometimes they were designed that way.
Me: "I have a controller that took a surge and isn't working correctly"
Manufacturer: "Oh too bad. Here, I'll sell you another one"
LOL
Good question and thanks for commenting
@@streetsmartstraffic This angers me and makes me want to design those controllers myself! I would include easy diagnostics and schematics/test procedures for driver circuits.
If only i could! I'm more of a software/embedded guy and have little to no experience with designing hardware.
@@blinking_dodo You wouldn't sell many because companies do not want to do board level repairs. Time is money to them and they'd rather toss it and buy a new one than have a highly-trained technician spend 30+ minutes trying to repair a circuit board.
@@uzlonewolf It depends on the price of the products. There's a good chance that 30 mins of repair + parts is cheaper than buying a new one. (Don't forget the product can be sold out, company can be bankrupt and shipment could take days if you're out of stock.)
@streetsmartstraffic What's your opinion on this?
Unfortunatley, we are in a throw away society. I always try to prolong the life of something. I just hate seeing something end up in a landfill if it can be fixed.
what do they do with parts that fail? if they just toss them,send them to me,.if they allow you to do so. I am an electronics hobiest, who would really enjoy tinkering around with them... let me know, and I'll give you my email....
Back in the day, we would try to fix this stuff. Most of it is placed into the recycle bin. However, some municipalities sell their used stuff on pallets @ govdeals.com. You'll also find it on ebay.com. Govdeals you can usually get stuff for pennies on the dollar...
Wait is the traffic light using can?
can?
@streetsmartstraffic control area network protocol. It's used when you have a lot of sensors or switches to deal with on a system instead of using dedicated wires to control each node the same 2 wires usually called can hi and can low are used to control multiple nodes across the network. It helps to eliminate a lot of wire.
In a nutshell.
back in the early 90's when I was maybe 16 or 17 years old I saw first hand what lightning can do I was probably 40 yards from a sailboat when it got struck by lightning and it scared the crap out of me and it blew the antennas off the boat or incinerated them and blew every almost every electronic thing out on the boat and as I'm thinking about this I was probably closer than the 40 yards maybe even 20 yards away cause the charter boat I was working on was just on the other side of the dock and my boss and I took cover under the boardwalk at John's pass in Florida right before the strike and it was not maybe 5 minutes or so after we got off the charter boat lightning struck the sailboat. I also remember I was with my girlfriend one time and it didn't hit right next to us but it hit pretty close by and were driving by a power pole and just as we were driving by it lightning struck close by and we saw sparks flying off the pole and as you probably know most of poles in Florida are concrete or metal,
Thats crazy! And you were near water too?! Yikes! Lightning will do what it wants and doesn't care who you are. Its the equalizer! Thanks for sharing!
When I was a teen, lightning struck close enough to my car when I was driving to kill the FM section of my car radio. Fortunately it was an old car and the only other electronic thing on it was the electronic ignition, which survived. About 10 years ago a coworker with a Ford C-Max was parked under a light pole in our parking lot that got hit. It blasted the fuses out of the light pole and killed the rather expensive transmission control module in his car. Fortunately the warranty covered it. Not sure if he told them it was lightning.
@@streetsmartstraffic yeah and I was actually under the boardwalk with my boss at the time and I kid you not it was probably around 5 minutes or so that we got off the charter boat I was working on and mind you that boat was all metal no fiberglass at all that the lightning struck the sailboat across the dock from the charter boat. Ever since then I've been super careful of lightning. I work at an amusement park back in 98 in the state I live in and I was a ride operator there and if I saw any hint of lightning I shut the ride down before my supervisor said so and of course I got scolded but I said I was wasn't taking any chances when I had close to 30 lives in charge of on a ride and the fact I was almost killed by lightning too.
@@greendryerlint I was out driving with my girlfriend at the time about 33 years ago and lightning struck near by and I saw sparks flying off the telephone pole in Florida an it was like watching fireworks explode.
@@greendryerlint Wow. I've heard stories of misc. equipment that stopped working in vehicles if lightning strikes were close by. Good thing he didn't tell them it was a lightning strike that caused that failure. I'm sure there was a clause in the warranty that said 'acts of God' were not covered! LOL
Wow. You can just hot swap those cards?
Yes, they are 24v. It is also how you cycle the power to a card.
Yes sir! See @danlowe8684 comment below
@@danlowe8684 Thanks!
@@danlowe8684 That's pretty cool!
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