The Greater Will Doesn't Care About The Golden Order | Elden Ring Lore
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- In this video I discuss the prehistoric era before the Golden Order and the Greater Will's relationship to the dragons.
Thumbnail art by: / bloodexer - Hry
I should have mentioned that the line in Plasidusax's remembrance says that his "god had fled." I think this god that's mentioned is not an outer god. It's a god in the sense that Marika is a god. It's the vassal god of the greater will. (Probably.)
In my opinion the two heads of Placidusax staying still looking at the sky trying to connect to his god reminds me of when our two fingers become still to comunicate with the greater will. Why the greater will abbandoned him is a mistery though...
Agreed. There are the Outer Gods and then…uh I guess “inner gods” like Marika and Pacidusax’s god that serve as vassals for outer gods. So if Mohg got what he wanted then presumably Miquella could have become an “inner god” for the Formless Mother. Or, if you go by the boss text and Scarlet Aeonia’s description, Malenia becomes an “inner god” of the Scarlet Rot during the second phase of her boss fight.
I think there’s a further implication there that Placidusax’s god may have been killed by the gloam eyed queen or her servants. That would explain why some of them are still in Farum Azula. And that event may have been why Marika wanted Maliketh to take the rune of death, in order to avoid the same fate.
@@user-bn3yy8qf5g what do they call elden lord in japanese? Also that doesn’t get rid of the crucible ring that’s there
@@TheCrewExpendable people constantly seem to assume that, but honestly, i‘m not convinced.
malenias remembrance doesnt speak in past or present; it speaks about the future. it also mentions that she will flower three times; but she has only done so twice so far. once against radahn, once against the player.
the second lotus in the haligtree is from her fight against radahn, not from another time.
that is because a. theres no flower in the howling dunes and b. the text of the cleanrot knight ashes tell us she was carried back, but she couldve walked if she was still alive.
additionally, it seems like malenia has the ability to be reborn. about millicent, gowry mentions how she will be reborn as a crimson valkyrie; and the same is true for malenia. „dying“ to the player does not mark and end to her evolution.
the second lotus, the one with malenia inside, also trades the „anti rot“ needle against her old „not yet finished against a certain thing“ needle. why would that happen if not because she receives the needle that, as seen from millicent, is needed to complete her transformation.
but mostly, i find it very curious that rot and decay are here represented by a lotus, which usually stands for purity, and grant the ability of rebirth. its like its „change“ in the broader sense, and maybe also „progress“, because the things connected to it (insects, mushrooms, carrion beasts aka crows and dogs) are all known to feed on corpses. its a sort of „life from death“ ideology.
this also leads me to belief that malenia has the „progress“ that miquella is lacking, thus causing his „stagnation“.
Radagon adhering to Golden Order Fundamentalism, in spite of even The Greater Will, falls flawlessly in line with the meta-themes of Dark Souls and Elden Ring: That change comes for everyone, and those who fight against change and maintain their status quo will rot and crumble, and ultimately destroy what they hold dear in that process. I also like the idea of The Greater Will having no love or care for what shape or form "Order" comes in, so long as it exists, and The Great Will's motives and needs (which are unknown) are still maintained; it gives it a kind of uncaring eldritch feeling. This whole situation is almost like The Lands Between are a proxy-war _Between_ several major powers; the other Outer Gods.
Yeah I think of the outer gods as several Satans fighting with no true God-Satan not necessarily meaning evil (though the Goldmask quest line sheds some light on the benevolence or lack thereof of the Greater Will), but both powerful and limited and constrained in power. Satan is often depicted as “tricking” or “tempting” humans in religious folklore, and it seems like the Outer Gods spread their power in a similar way. Scarlet Rot is in many ways a disease, which is slightly different, but it’s an imperfect metaphor trying to fit a very complex and cosmic Japanese game into a Christian lens, which is interesting and useful to me specifically (not a Christian but because of where I was born it really colors my understanding of religion as a whole.)
I don't think Radagon's motives can be boiled down to such a basic idea as "is a zealot for the Golden Order and doesn't want to lose his position". Radagon also seems to have truly loved Rennala, and incorporated the symbol of their union into his personal symbol of the Golden Order, his greatsword. I think Radagon tried to mend the Elden Ring and sealed off the Erdtree in order to prevent any further damage from being done - After all, this is a story where an ending like the Age of Despair or the Lord of the Frenzied Flame could easily come to pass.
You may be accurate on the assesment of Radagon, but you have to remember that goldern order "fundamentalism" is just another term for scholarship and study. Gold Mask could also be considered a "fundamentalist".
There is also the gravel stone seal that mentions how "worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree." Even though this could just be a reference to Godwyn's ancient dragon cult, it is weird that the Golden Order would even allow such a cult to form unless it was because both were founded upon the worship of the Greater Will.
Rogier state that the Golden Order was very flexible in the past, so my interpretation is that the Greater Will tolarated other minor belifes if they were not posed imminente danger to the Erdtree. It is why the Gients have to go because there flame god was too dangeres and possible evil as well. Other example for that that they make an alliance with the Carians as well even if the Carians were followed ther own astrology based religioun.
This makes a lot of sense, because it seems the Greater Will/Golden Order really only took issue with other beliefs that revolved around separate Outer Gods, like the Giants with their Fell God.
It’s explicitly because there is gold in lightning, namely the red gold of the crucible and the yellow gold of the erd tree.
Considering the repugnance of the modern erd tree for the crucible, I’d tend to believe that it’s specifically godwyn’s yellow golden that is acceptable, not the red one, so I’m not quite sure it can be used to prove anything in relation to that, especially if it’s about trying to link the dragons with the GW, as the GW can be independent from the source of life itself.
Still the greatest unsolved mystery in the entire game to me:
In the deeproot depths, there is a cave not far from the Nameless Eternal City. That cave is packed with several bloated giant ants. When you attack their bloated sacs, they pop, and grant you a Numen Rune. WHAT IS FROM TRYING TO TELL US WITH THIS FACT?
Are they telling us that Numen are in fact gestated inside the abdomens of giant ants, and those ants give birth to Numen? Are they telling us that those ants ingested Numens at some point? Is it a total red herring with 0 meaning, and the ants are just a video-gamey way to gift money to the player, like popping the floating mannequin balloons in Liurnia & elsewhere?
Maybe it does have meaning, like Humanity being found in Rats.... (Even Rune Arcs can be found in Rats)
Probably means something.
From Wikipedia: "Numen is a Latin term for "divinity", "divine presence", or "divine will." The Latin authors defined it as follows: Cicero writes of a "divine mind", a god "whose numen everything obeys," and a "divine power" "which pervades the lives of men." It causes the motions and cries of birds during augury."
I think the ants are outer gods from the cosmos.
This threw me off hard as well. By the time I found these ants in my first playthrough, I had forgotten that Numen was a humanoid race, so I thought Numen were bug like creatures because of this drop. Not long after, I read a description that tied Marika to the Numen and I swear to god I was running around thinking Marika was a bug lady for like 10 hours of game time lmao
I think the nameless eternal city was the old capital in the age of the great tree, and Numens might have lived there after arriving in the lands between. It makes sense that Numens would live in the old capital, being Marika a Numen (important race, due to one of them becoming a god, living in an important city). After the Erdtree came to be, the roots of the greater tree started to decay and ants proliferated putting an end to what was left of the old capital outskirts and consumed a lot of Numens.
Interesting idea!
I'd would say you're 50/50 on being onto something, and video-gamey way.
If it is the long cave I think it is, it's where the player finds the Elden Stars incantation; and we know that its descriptions mentions the Greater Will sending the Elden Beast to TLB, and EB is connected to Marika/Radagon.
And Marika/Radagon is/are(?) a Numen being.
So, perhaps.
What I'm not sure would be the connection with the ants.
If such an idea where to exist in the game, the notion that Numen are 'born' out of other entities, I don't think Fromsoft would use such a... I wanna say mundane? enemy.
They would use other, thematically more related characters.
An example I would use to better understand my perspective is how some enemies when killed transformed into other enemies (the Lobster into Grafted spider, the Noble turning into the bears, etc.) and they drop a Larva Tear.
This leads me to believe the characters went to Rennala and requested a rebirth.
Hopefully this makes sense lol.
The images at 3:18 are interesting to note, the Erd Tree symbol places a ring around the tree, trapping it, defining the direction of it’s roots
Could Radagons Seal just be straightened out lines?
What’s even more interesting is that this same symbol is found on the « erd tree blessing » and « erd tree boon ».
Not sure why people keep forgetting that the erd tree itself used to be a lot more chaotic than it ended up, even after becoming the erd tree properly.
One thing that confuses me about this interpretation, is that if what you say is true and Radagon is trying to stop us from establishing a new Order under the Tarnished, then why is it that we are forced to fight the Elden Beast after we defeat Radagon? All the Tarnished are supposed to do is to gather enough Great Runes to mend the Elden Ring, and at the bare minimum we acquire 3 Great Runes to do the job. As Tarnished we are supposed to "brandish the Elden Ring". If Radagon is attempting to thwart the goals of the Greater Will, then by defeating him we accomplish our task and then can mend the Elden Ring in Marika's body. So why does the Elden Beast emerge and fight us?
Our goal was never to destroy the Greater Will or to try and remove its influence from the world unless you do Ranni's Questline. Does the Elden Beast attack us because we committed a cardinal sin by burning the Erdtree? But why still attack us if the Greater Will doesn't care what the new Order should be? The Erdtree wasn't present during Placidusax's time, and the Erdtree is the symbol of Marika's age as a god and vassal of the Erdtree. The Greater Will should have been fine with us defeating Radagon if he defied the Greater Will's orders, and all we needed to do was just mend the Elden Ring, become Marika's consort, and become Elden Lord using the mending runes or lack thereof to start a new age of Order.
Can you explain the Elden Beast's motivation then for attacking us based on your theory surrounding Radagon's motivations? I get that Marika wanted the Tarnished to struggle for eternity to feed the Erdtree (or at least that's what most people say about Marika's motivations), but the Greater Will specifically returned the Grace to the Tarnished so that they can return to the Lands Between and brandish the Elden Ring after the Demigods failed to do so. There should be no reason for the Elden Beast, as a vassal of the Greater Will itself, to fight us if we are doing its job and trying to establish a new Order. Unless I'm misinterpreting something?
Just a guess, but it's possible that the Elden Beast challenges anyone who attempts to mend the Elden Ring after the Shattering. As an envoy for the Greater Will, anyone who would aspire to lordship should be strong, so it challenges those capable few to see if they can defend the Elden Ring.
I've no evidence for this aside from the Beast rising to attack you at the end regardless, but I think it makes sense.
@@Starn3rd what confuses me about this though is that the Two Fingers, who are envoys of the Greater Will, literally tell us to go to Leyndell and brandish the Elden Ring once we acquire two Great Runes. They are only stuck on what to do when we discover that we cannot enter the Erdtree due to Radagon.
As the envoys and speakers of the Greater Will, the Two Fingers act as its voice so it’s odd how the Elden Beast would try to challenge us if we already met its criteria for Elden Lord by defeating at least two shardbearers. It’s only because of Radagon that we are forced to burn the Erdtree
> I get that Marika wanted the Tarnished to struggle for eternity to feed the Erdtree
I've seen this being said before, but I haven't found one clue that supports it. Where does it say that the Erdtree feeds on struggle? Theres hints that it feeds on souls, from the corpses littering its roots in catacombs, but where is this argument about it feeding on struggle?
The way I see it, Marika wanted the Tarnished to go out and die to become stronger, so that they may defeat the Golden Order she grew to be disillusioned with. Because that's essentially what we do, we die over and over, but get stronger when we rise again. Henceforth her quote, "Grow strong in the face of death. My warriors of Lord Godfrey."
Theres so many evidence that points to Marika defying the erdtree, not trying to feed it.
@@2402Stevo that’s what I was confused about too, why Marika wanted the Tarnished to struggle. The part where the Tarnished should struggle for eternity comes from Gideon Ofnir’s lore and dialogue in his boss fight, since apparently he glimpses into Marika’s Will and says that Marika wants the Tarnished to struggle for eternity.
As for the part where the Erdtree feeds on struggle? I’m not sure where that part came from, although I believe it comes from how we see the roots of the Erdtree absorb the bodies and souls of all that perish in the Lands Between, whenever we go into a dungeon or crypt and at the boss room we see many corpses being absorbed by the roots of the Erdtree. One of the ghosts outside the crypts says that the departed will return to the Erdtree
@@agopessimist1335 She wanted the Tarnished to struggle, because that's how they get stronger. Her quote to Godfrey and the Tarnished were to go out and wage war. Die. And grow strong in the face of death. So that when the time comes for them to have their grace back, they can finally kill The Elden Beast and usurp the Golden Order.
Thats my two cents anyways.
The Greater Will seems to be so far removed, that he likely has no idea what's even going on. He wants to conquer everything there is and sends his envoys to do so. The Elden Beast/ Ring is a portion of his power needed to exert control and the two fingers are the ambassadors who convey his will and choose underlings to carry it out. We know, that actual communication with the Greater Will can take the fingers millennia, either because of the distance or because GW is really busy. Either way, the GW doesn't care about who does his work for him, as long as "order" is established in his name.
he's an absentee landlord! laughing his sick f*ing ass off. he's a tight ass, he's a sadist!
I agree for the most part, but I don’t think “conquer” is the right word. The aggressiveness of the Erdtree only came about under Marika. There’s no mention of the dragons conquering anyone, they only attack Leyndell because they perceived it as a threat.
I think the Greater Will wants to spread order as far as possible, but generally leaves the means up to its underlings. It’s willing to communicate with them (like the Two Fingers) but it does nothing more than provide counsel.
It falls in line with the focus on “Grace” under the Elden Ring. Grace is something given away to another. Consequently, once it is received, the recipient can do with it what he or she wills. The Greater Will literally seeds universes with the gift of order (based on the 3 fingers’ dialogue this was an intentional choice). The order gives birth to life, which gives birth to sapient beings that can comprehend the order (the beast miracles indicate the beasts were the first group of sapient beings in the Lands Between and this is backed up in Farum Azula). These sapient beings eventually become “gods” and the Elden Lord. They can then do with the order what they will.
This is why the order is at times pretty flexible. It can incorporate aspects foreign to the Greater Will because the order was built with flexibility in mind. However, I think Marika was the one responsible for ruining things. She becomes increasingly bloodthirsty and unhinged as time goes on and I think much of the vitriol directed at the Greater Will is misplaced and should be appropriately targeted at Marika. She became so power hungry that she sealed off the mechanism built in to the Elden Ring to facilitate the transition of Order. Then when the fingers, and at least one of her (or at least the male aspect of her) children turned on her for her actions, she shattered the Elden Ring out of a selfish desire to end her own life and consign everyone else to an age of torment.
@@SorryFace I meant "conquer" in the metaphorical sense, regarding the stars, universes, everything. However, that does not exclude violence. The fingers themselves tell us to not show mercy to the demigods.
As for Marika, I don't know. She has been subversive and it's difficult to fully understand her motivation. I don't see her as power hungry or lusting for blood. It's more complex and we don't know all the details - the lines attributed to her are quite cryptic and out of context. We also need to address Radagon, who is Marika ... and yet isn't. Their actions seem to be in opposition. So who is responsible for what exactly? It would seem that Marika rebelled, more or less in secret like Ranni. Radagon is the "Leal hound of the Golden Order", defending the status quo, and therefore his status. They are two sides of the same coin ... as if ... one personality was shattered in two.
@@SorryFace We also need to consider that order and chaos are split (two and three fingers) and as such imbalanced. The negative sides of order are Tyranny and stagnation. Both of which we can see happening in the Lands between. Marika (and others before her) came to understand that there were flaws in the Golden Order. Marika was working towards something like balance and freedom through "struggle", which isn't just a negative. It also means personal growth, appreciating achievements and ultimately valuing life, because it ends. Certainly for the Tarnished and therefore by extension the players. The struggle makes things meaningful. It's a metaphor for the game itself.
Maybe he’s just lazy?
You were the first youtuber to say that Greater Will doesn't care about the Golden Order and GW is not a parasite.
yeah everyone look at the misbegotten suffering and immediately projects the political bias into the game painting the gw as a mixture of christian god with nazi tendencies
Is it possible the "ring" aspect of the elden ring refers more to rings of a tree? Like counting its age? Just curious because I've never thought about it until just now.
Bruhhh 🤯
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think so since the Order can manifest in many forms, not just as a tree. Ranni's ending replaced the Order and took the form of Moon instead of a tree at least. Then again I'm not sure if the Elden Ring continues to exist after that or not
Wish we had more endings to replace or destroy the Order, perharps in the DLC.
could also be a figurative ring, consider the divine towers that held the Great Runes, they're arranged in a circle. "shattering" the Elden Ring might be removal of one of those runes, and the Liurnian towner does not have a rune atop it like the others (instead it has Ranni's dead body).
@@yiangaruga4928 You see, I think the Moon is in fact an outer god, but one without ambition. It doesn't care for dominion and just shares its knowledge with those who ask, and that's why Ranni wanted it to be her patron.
Ring circle cyclical nature of things and death a part of. The ring being removed shattered the circle or nature and the elden ring its self
Semi related, but what do you think about the idea that the two-fingers have lost their connection with the greater will and aren't necessarily in advocacy of it's interests? Both Varre and Gideon seem to make references to suggest that the shattering of the Elden Ring may have broken them, and now they are just "rambling"
Varre cant really be trusted to have a nonbiased opinion of the fingers. But gideon is stange, as he seems fully on board with the plan the fingers have. Though that could just be a pretense, the theory that ensha attacks you earlier than gideon planned shows that gideon doesnt want tarnished to become elden lord.
well that fact they take thousands of years to communicate to me tells me they are in a different galaxy. It's a stretch but in Stars of ruins description it says Lusat saw a 'cluster of stars' die.
Idk maybe the greater will got consumed by something else in a cosmic horror kind of way and that is why Gideon was terrified when he glimpsed into merika.
Just cause it relates vaguely with the Fingers. But the chaos of the three fingers and the order of the two fingers are polar opposite. And the greater will lore suggested something along the line of a separation/something going wrong in early days pre game timeline. This could be the whole hand losing itself and splitting. In to the distinct two and three fingers. One possibly touched by the crucible and or flame of frenzy?
Honestly the fingers are the most baffling things.
It would be interesting if Fingers are simply trying to keep their own powerbase intact. Not out of any malicious intent, but because fingers genuinely have lost ability to contact Greater Will without realising it themselves and simply act on what they think Greater Will would want.
@@matiasluukkanen7718 That's pretty much the theory I'm leaning to. I think when the fingers go silent, it's them realizing they don't know what's going on, and just noping out until everyone involved with the current situation is gone
Do you have any idea why Gideon Ofnir gave up on the idea of a man becoming Elden Lord? This has puzzled me a bit and made me wonder what did Ofnir discover that made him suddenly draw that conclusion at the end? Godfrey is a living proof that it's possible for man to become Elden Lord so it can't really be that.
Did he just find out about the Elden Beast somehow and deemed it an impossible task to kill a God?
He says it in the bossfight actually. "Queen Marika has high hopes for us. That we continue to struggle, onto eternity". He wants the tarnished to keep coming to the lands between and killing eachother becoming stronger and stronger.
@@manicdgr That's a solid point!
I don't know yet.
@@ratatoskr6324 Guess only the late All-Knowing knows, damn it
i believe that he just could believe that we can kill the elden beast and interprets that like marika just want us to suffer for eternity. because "no men can kill a god'.
The Greater Will only cares about Order; not specifically the Golden Order. I had this thought earlier in relation to the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I figured Empyreans are just candidates chosen to battle it out, and whoever comes out on top gets to establish their own Order. Sort of like the GW is ensuring the survival of the fittest. Weird that you would put out this video not a few hours after I thought the same thing.
The survival of the fittest idea makes sense. The greater will does not impose any sort of moral code to its commands, it is only the various people who wish to become eldenlord who have moral systems. It kinda fits that an eldrich being beyond our world would be so uncaring about the suffering that its plans may create. Its also a big mystery (probably intentionally) what the greater will actually wants out of all this order, is there an endgoal? are all the denisens of the lands between just soldiers to fight against other outer gods? is the greater will even in a meaningful conflict with the other gods, or is the conflcit we see just a bit of "border friction" so to speak? Absolutely everything we know about the greater will is told to us by people who have an agenda in wielding its power; interpreters and interpreters of interpreters, its a mess of second and thirdhand accounts placing a lot of trust in unknowable entities like the fingers.
@@DisgruntledPeasant True. Which is why Marika can just remove the rune of death from the Ring, and we can make random changes to it with equally far reaching consequences through the mending runes when we become elden lord.
@@DisgruntledPeasant no the greater will is in out perspective a morally positive character the two fingers specifically communicate that the greater will only sticks around to not abandon the life in the lands between in fact I think it is perfectly fine with leaving considering the betrayal he established life elden stars says it is the oldest erdtree incantations even older than crucible incantations meaning the elden beast is older than the crucible meaning it is the cause of it and thus life the greater will cares about the life it established and wants it to flourish marika was against from the start I think she wants the elden ring and its power for herself
4:44 I take one more step and say that The Greater Will rejects every aspect of chaos. That would explain why grace restore your physical and mental health; it is restoring the order within your body and mind. That would also explain why the Rune of Death was plucked from the Elden Ring; because Destined Death is an aspect of chaos, an agent of entropy.
Death is merely a transitional state between life and life. Dipping into real world concepts, if you look at the universe from a macro level, the vast, vast, vast majority of its lifetime will be a nursery for the formation of black holes. Life, and burning stars are just a transitional phase.
@@phillipmitchell2254 I say this in contrast to the death by the Erdtree. In the latter your spirit, your life-force return to the Erdtree, preventing it from being wasted. In the former, it simply ceases to exist, just like what happened to Godwyn.
Thought there's mention of new life sprouting from Death.
I agree with the idea that The Greater Will is in complete opposition to chaos (plenty of evidence for that with the whole Flame of Chaos/ Three Fingers stuff), but totally disagree with the idea that death = chaos/ entropy. It's a cliche, but in life, the ONLY thing that is guaranteed is death; by removing destined death (notice the word choice of "destined," here, it has heavy connotations of order), the world would theoretically be more chaotic because the literal only absolute has been removed from life.
Now, in elden ring specifically, this is a bit more convoluted due to the reincarnation of souls via the erd tree, which could be considered a different form of "destiny" in a sense, but there are still beings such as the misbegotten and many others that don't have their souls absorbed by the erd tree for reincarnation, which seems more chaotic than just having everyone reincarnate or everyone die permanently. This all comes down to interpretation though, it's completely possible that From took your interpretation of "death = chaos" when creating the lore, I just vehemently disagree with that interpretation; that's kind of the beauty of soulsborne lore, there's just enough details to get you thinking deeply on it, but also enough wiggle room and vague shit so that people can have vastly different interpretations of the exact same facts.
Marika plucked death from the ring of her own free will. True death was a part of a past order but Marika confined it to the black blade because that was useful to her.
@@NewbPhil the frenzied flame is caused by the greater will and would most certainly result in a fitting new order.
Placidusax meditating in the eye of the storm is such a powerful image, the notion that, in this place beyond time, he's just been waiting for eternity and thinking to himselves.
Here is my write up about the Dusk Eyed/Gloam Eyed Queen being Queen Marika:
I believe Marika is the Gloam Eyed/Dusk Eyed Queen. It really makes us work for it though. Look at Marika at the end, red and black spear impaling her, imprisoned. Defeated. Who did that? Who uses red and black Rune of Death power? Well, Maliketh.
Ranni tells us that chosen Empyreans have a shadow assigned to them which protects them, but also is able to and directed to destroy their Empyrean host if they go against the Greater Will. How does she know this? She saw it happen to Marika and Maliketh. When he defeated the Gloam Eyed Queen. Who is simply another name for Marika, hinting at her past as a Numen and denizen of the Eternal City. The Black Knife assassins are also from here.
The Age of the Duskborn ending sees Godwyn as the Prince of Death rise to new ascendancy and it is said by Fia he will be reborn anew. I believe the Duskborn ending is Godwyn's ending. I believe the "Duskborn" is Godwyn himself. He is the Prince of Death. Born of someone aligned with Death and "Dusk" indeed. His mother is Marika. The Dusk Eyed Queen. Godwyn, a Prince. Marika, his mother, the Queen.
The Beast Eye you get from Maliketh/Gurranq is purple/gloamy. We never see Marika's eyes. Or the left side of her generally. I believe it's her eye. Now who else has purple eyes we see, ever? Melina. Who is Melina? The daughter of Marika. Traits are often passed down in Elden Ring from parent to child, no? I bet Marika has gloamy purple eyes. Well, one left now.
What does Melina talk about? Destined Death which is just the Rune of Death really. And flame. Sounds like black flame to me. Tied to the Godskins. What shape does Marika hang in? The shape of the Rune of Death. The Godskins served it, long ago. Marika was once made an Empyrean specifically because she was so powerful already in the world before the Erdtree. The host must be very powerful after all.
Hewg is praying to himself, to Marika about her wish to create a Godslaying weapon. To kill a God. The Elden Beast. Who else made and knew of Godslaying weapons and arts? Well, the Godskins and their black flame. Flame and Death. With Maliketh keeping watch of the main part of the Rune of Death, and with the other half impaled in the Dusk Eyed Queen, pinning her to the Erdtree, defeated but not slain as per the item description, she needed another way to slay a God. That's Hewg's task given by her.
It's worth noting that Fia, Deathbed Companion has a similar black robe we see Marika wearing, and we see the tattered remnants of her black garb when we find her in the Erdtree as well. There's a statue of Marika holding the twins Malenia and Miquella in the Haligtree region, she is hooded there like Fia. To me this just further ties her to aspects of Destined Death and proves she is the DEQ/GEQ.
The statues of Marika all depict her hanging in the shape of the Death Rune and behind her, an ethereal cloth that weaves in and out coiled just like... the Fingerslayer Blade and later, the sword made of Radagon that the Elden Beast wields. The Godslayer Greatsword coils the exact same way if you look behind a Marika statue you can see this. I don't think it's an accident. Marika was just once called the Dusk Eyed Queen. Like Godfrey took a new name, Marika has a past name and high position because she was a chosen Empyrean, again, already very powerful most likely. No other characters are named Empyreans and old enough and familiar enough with the Death Rune except Queen Marika.
She used Maliketh like a safe for a powerful gun. She wielded the Rune of Death, or Destined Death by a different name and she hangs in its shape. She became disillusioned with the Greater Will and worked in secret with her Numen homeland to create the Fingerslayer Blade, prompting Astel to level it, sent by TGW, and causing Maliketh to have to imprison Marika and spike her with half of the Death Rune, leaving her defeated but alive. Because she is still the most powerful vessel, still a God.
Marika was acting against the Greater Will in various ways for a long time, with far reaching plots. A Shadowbound has to intervene when this happens, and Maliketh was forced to do this and remained ever confused and conflicted, like when we see him or defeat him, he is still wondering why Marika lied to or tricked him. Remember in the item description it states very keenly that her sole need of him was to seal Destined Death (Death Rune which she wielded)... and even then, betrayed him.
When’s your lore video coming out?
Interesting. To me, a lot of what you say here makes sense, but what did Marika lie to Maliketh about? What item description refers to Marika as the Gloam-Eyed Queen or that she is a Numen?
@@aaryansingh3726 The only Numen characters in ER are the Black Knives, and their set claims they all have a close connection to Marika.
Thanks. But if Marika is a Numen and closely related to the Black Knives, why would they kill Godwyn on Ranni's orders? If Marika is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, that means she led the Godskins. Why would she lead a cult that hunted and killed gods if she is one herself?
@@aaryansingh3726 I think Marika didnt anticipate the night of the black knives at all, and did not expect Maliketh to be fooled like that. Id say it was a Ranni thing.
It is rumored in the game that Marika killed the Fell God of the giants, the feat of killing a god is not for everyone, we only know about the Gloam Eyed Queen at this point.
I think she tried to end her own life and Maliketh felt betrayed as a shadow, and then defeated her.
The game says he defeated the gloam eyed queen, not killed, also sealing her powers away.
We could say she becoming eternal was against her will.
Watching this video I notice just now an interesting parallel between placidusax and radagon : they both look somewhat broken and shattered
Need a vid on the Great Tree & the Erdtree, and their apparent interwoven relationship, but there's so little outside of a couple item descriptions. There's that central sliver of the Erdtree that isn't golden; so not all of its body is uniform - as well as the deeproots being similarly dull, and the odd theme of Godrick the Grafted, grafting being a botanical term - planted in the player's mind early on.
Yeah, I kinda assumed the outer gods/greater will cut down the original tree of life of the world and grafted the erd tree onto it to exert their control over everything. Or siphoning the life energy to feed the greater will like a parasite.
The painful part about the Great Tree is that people question the accuracy of the translations mentioning it, making it harder to discern details. Whether they're exactly the same or the Erdtree a golden corruption of it is up for interpretation. What we do know is that they more or less occupy the same space, since both are linked to the primordial crucible.
Great video! There's an interesting item called the Cinquedea that also has interesting implications for this theory. It talks about when the beasts became intelligent 5 fingers came to symbolise that change. The dragon lord also looks like it once had 5 heads now it has 2.
Really interesting symbols, maybe Placisdusex was Elden lord before the 2 and 3 fingers were separated.
The Cinquedea is an Italian sword whose name means "Five Fingers", referring to the width of the blade. But..in our story that could be more literal.
He actually was the Lord of the Lands Between before the Age of the Erdtree came
If you look at the art of the Old Lord's Talisman, which depicts Placidusax, he used to have 4 heads.
Life didn't exist before the 2 and 3 Fingers separated.
I love the work you're doing to make sense of all this. Great video as usual
Good points, good thoughts, Ratotaskor. Looking forward to hearing more!
I agree with most of your theories, but the motivations the characters have for them, I have a different opinion of. Here is my theory:
So in elden ring, the primordial elden ring(the one in Farum azula), is simply the elden ring, in its previous, more complete form. I shall call this the Primordial elden ring. Well, the primordial elden ring, had many great runes, housed inside, some are still there in the elden ring which is represented on the cover of the game, and in the game itself. I shall call this the Golden Elden ring.
So the greater will, comes to the lands between, and it wants to extend its stay here, indefinitely. And how does it do that? By doing a little snip snip on the primordial elden ring. By removing the undesired great runes from the primordial elden ring, the greater will would be able to reign over the lands between for eternity, And thus the golden order/golden elden ring, was established, in the lands between. The most significant great rune that was removed from the primordial elden ring, is the great rune of death.
We all know from previous examples that great runes separated from the elden ring, actually turn into living beings. Radagon was created by Marika by separating the great rune of order from herself. And Ranni was created from a part of Radagon.
so the greater will had to ensure that it's Reign would last for ever, and it would do that by separating the great rune of death from the elden ring. And this is the plot twist. I actually believe that the rune of death was sealed away, by command of the greater will, NOT by the will of Marika herself.
So the rune of death was separated from the primordial elden ring, so that death(destined death), was removed from the lands between. That great rune of death. What happened to that you might think? Well it turned into a separate being, just like radagon did, and just like Ranni did. But which being? that would be the dusk eyed queen. Also known as the gloam eyed queen. "Wow, wow, wow, hold on there" you might think, but let me list some points which I believe prove my theory:
1. The dead skin apostles, are found on Farum azula, where the primordial elden ring, was from, before the golden order removed the great rune of death from it.
2. Now why would maliketh know of Farum azula at all? What significance is that place to him? Why is he there at all? To just be a roadblock, to the player character? No my friends, he is there because of the significance of that place, the original place where the rune of death is from, the primordial elden ring.
3. The godskin apostles all wield black god slaying flame, the rune of death is depicted in the same black/white flame color, which was Granted to them by the gloam eyed queen.
3. There are some theories as to Melinas connection to the gloam eyed queen. She does say that she was born at the foot of the erd tree, which I interpret as meaning the "great tree/primordial tree". She was also given a purpose, by her mother (who at this point could be Marika.
4. Marika herself had doubts about the golden order/greater will, and their agenda. Why would she have that? They made her a God, gave her eternal life, blessed her followers, and gave her the lands between to rule over, as proxy for the greater will. Why would she harbor doubts? Well I think, that Marika came to the revelation, that this greater will, with its "golden elden ring", wasn't what the world was supposed to be. She wanted to strengthen her belief in the golden order, by researching it more thoroughly. And the revelation that the golden order with its "own elden ring, with death removed" was but a fraction of the primordial elden ring, Marika knew she was in trouble. She had the gloam eyed queen killed(previous incarnate of the rune of death) killed, and sealed away, by command of the greater will, so that they could control the lands between, and Marika for all eternity.
More proof of this is described in the item "Marika's Soreseal", it is a talisman, that raises stats, but makes you take more damage, just like how Marika was granted godhood by the greater will at the cost of her having to suffer and serve for eternity. Even the item description, directly states this:
"Solemn duty weighs upon the one beholden; not unlike a gnawing curse from which there is no deliverance."
Her servitude, to the greater will, is a curse, she can't escape from.
She did not want to be their eternal slave. So she had to devise a plan, to free not only herself, but all of the lands between of the influence of the golden order. And the key to it all? The Great rune of death. She would devise a plan so devilish, so elaborate, so long, and so smart, that not even the golden order would see it coming, heck even Sir Gideon was surprised when he found out the truth about Marika's intentions. Marika's plan was as follows:
Together with rannis help, she would plan to get rid of the golden order. But she had to do this carefully. The rune of death kills a person, both in body and in soul, and in order to make sure Ranni, would only be killed in body, another person had to be killed in soul. This was godwyn. As to why Marika would slay her own son, is beyond me. But I do believe that Marika wasn't a very empathetic person at all. It is not like she showed any signs of love to another person ever. I also do not recall anywhere in the game that states that Marika loved her children. Godwyn was not Marika's favorite. Godwyn was the people's favorite. The love for godwyn came from the people, not from Marika herself. So I actually don't believe she had any problem killing godwyn. Either way, Godwyns corpse becomes infected, when he is killed, because one half of the great rune of death was injected inside his still living body. The body was buried underneath the erdtree, and from that wound in his corpse, death began to spread to the lands between, in the form of death root. Is that the only thing that happened, when godwyn died? Actually no... I believe that Melina was born around that time as well. Maybe as a reincarnation of the gloam eyed queen? She is also deeply connected with ranni, for obvious reasons, but I believe it works like this: Melina is born from one half of the great rune of death, which means she is the dusk(gloam) eyed queen, only half reincarnated. The other half of her essence is housed inside ranni, and this explains why they are so deeply connected. We clearly see that she has a purple(gloam) eye, in the flame of frenzy ending. BUT, SHE ONLY HAS ONE PURPLE EYE, and that is because she is only housing one half of the rune of death. She is not fully reincarnated. For that to happen she would need the other half from ranni. She talks about her purpose, being introducing death indiscriminate, back to the lands between, and that purpose was given to by her mother, inside the erdtree. It was given to her by Marika perhaps, when she buried godwyn at the erdtree, and from that burial Melina was born?
Either way, Marika knew the golden order would not react fondly of this, and to stop the golden order from ruining her plan, she had to distract them, or immobilize them. (Them being the golden order). And here her second part of the her plan comes to fruition. She has to rid the elden beast from her body, and kill herself in order to rid the world of the golden orders influence. She planned to exile all the tarnished from the lands between, by robbing them of their grace. She planned to shatter the elden ring, so that the golden order would have to employ the desperate tarnished, with the lure of grace and the title of elden lord. She knew, that one tarnished would have to collect all the great runes, slay the elden beast inside of her, and thus rid her of the influence and duty to eternally serve the golden order. A new elden ring would be created/remade. The original one. From Farum azula. One with death indiscriminate. My proof of this: the 2 fingers and the finger maiden at roundtable hold, clearly says that "we should spare the demigods no mercy, and kill them all" so we can brandish the elden ring, and restore the golden orders golden elden ring. Everything went according to Marika's plan, and she would soon be killed and be freed from the influence of the golden order. But radagon saw through her. He would seal the entrance into the erdtree where Marika is held prisoner, so no one can enter and kill her and the elden beast.
But Marika, knew that radagon knew! So her next step of her plan was to have the tarnished burn the erd tree down, with the giants' flame.
The rest happens as we know it, the tarnished walks in, slays the elden beast, and basically frees Marika from the elden beast/golden orders shackles. Her plan worked.
And you, as the player character, are nothing but a lowly tarnished, not even fit to graft. Your only role is to do what Marika wants and free her and thus the world of the golden order and it's golden elden ring, so that things can be restored to the way they were before, the greater will arrived in the lands between.
So, all I can say is, please put out that flame of ambition of yours, you are nothing but a mere puppet, in this plot.
Let me know what you guys think.
great read, i like the theories presented here. the only thing that gave me pause was this:
"Radagon was created by Marika by separating the great rune of order from herself."
i like this idea, but can you elaborate on how you came to this conclusion? It's not like we get a Great Rune of Order from defeating Radagon. there is the Mending Rune of Perfect Order from Goldmask, but otherwise Radagon's rune ingame is the 'scaffolding' looking crisscross pattern in the background of the golden elden ring, not an otherwise attainable great rune.
The beginning is shaky to the point of being on the verge of contradiction with in-game information (Elden Beast is said to have become, and this predates, the Elden Ring - maybe it's an incorrect in universe belief so I'm not dismissing your version), but it makes a lot of sense to me towards the end - the whole idea of Marika using Tarnished to break free from the Elden Beast and Radagon I fully subscribe to.
@@lil_thang Ah sorry, let me elaborate on the radagon thing:
1. Marika is not just the vessel of the elden ring, she is litterally THE embodiment of the elden ring.
2. That would make radagon the elden ring as well right? Well yes and no... Radagon is only a part of the elden ring.
3. Marika decided to split herself/the elden ring, up and from that split radagon is born. Marika is missing half her torso, because radagon is made from marika's torso. How was eve created, after Adam was created?
Eve was created from Adam's torso. The biblical reference here, is clearly intentional, from FROM SOFTWARE.
Then you might ask, well radagon is also missing half his torso, and arm as well, how does that work, if Marika was the one who split herself up?
Well, Radagon's missing torso actually has nothing to do with Marika, but rather with ranni.
Radagon gifted Rennala, a part of the elden ring, as a farewell gift.
We all know that all the great runes of the elden ring, come from the same place, which is Marika, but, rennala's great rune is a unique case.
Radagon tore his own torso off, (again with the biblical reference to Adam and eve's creation) and thus tore a part of the elden ring, which he himself is made of, and gave to rennala.
That part of the elden ring, is what turned into Ranni. This also explains why Ranni is an empyrian. She is a literal shard of the elden ring, made from the torn torso of radagon, and by proxy Marika, and Marika is as we know the elden ring.
Radagon later returns to marry Marika, and have 2 twin children. Miquella and Malenia. They are both born with defects, Malenia suffers from scarlet rot, and miquella suffers from eternal youth.
Why is that? Well the union between Marika and Radagon, would be incest, and thus the twin empyreans are actually inbred children. But since radagon was always a part of Marika, that would mean that the twins are empyreans, as they technically still are born from one God.
Also another fact: Which part of the elden ring does radagon possess. Well if you take a look at the complete elden ring, and you compare that to the shards, which the player character collects during the game, you will notice that there is a part of the elden ring missing, which we can't collect. And that is the criss cross pattern, which sits in the background of the elden ring:
pasteboard.co/pV1EOx2BmirU.jpg
I believe that criss cross pattern is actually the great rune of order, and that radagon is the embodiment of that rune. If you take a look at the statue of radagon in bellum church you can see that the same criss cross pattern is there:
pasteboard.co/aC8B9yyhvWNW.png
So what I believe happened is that Marika separated the great rune of order from her self, and that great rune turned into radagon. He is even called the loyal hound of the Golden Order, and that is because that is all he is capable of being. His whole existence is made up of the great rune of order, so he is forced to obey the Golden Order/Greater will.
So when Marika, decides to shatter the elden ring, Radagon had to intervene, as his existence forces him to maintain order. How does he do that? By trying to mend the elden ring. As stated before, Marika is the elden ring, so if he has to mend the elden ring, that would mean he has to mend Marika herself. But Marika/The elden ring, was broken beyond repair, and the only way that radagon would be able to stop Marika's plan, was to merge back together with the now fractured Marika/Elden ring. Radagon, by infusing himself, and thus the Great rune of order, back into Marika/The Elden ring, he made sure that some order could still be maintained, so that the lands between wouldn't have gone to complete mayhem. This also gives us a theory, and motivation, to why radagon and Marika, became one being again. Radagon was forced to merge back together with her, to maintain order in the lands between.
As for why we aren't given a great rune when we slay radagon, that would be because he was now fused with Marika, and thus he housed the elden ring again, so when he dies instead of gifting us his great rune, the elden beast emerges instead, BUT when we slay that, we are gifted the elden ring, which contains his great rune.
I don't know that I agree your frameing about that the Lnads Between is enlaved by the Greater Will. I agree that Marika, her name mean rebelli9ous women anyway, is rebelled agains the Greater Will, but the Shuttering was so terrible that I highly doubt she cared about any one else except herself. + We don't have information about that before the Shuttering the Lands Between were enlaved by the Greater Will, most ifnormation is contradict this theory by stating that it was a prett ygood time to live in, it's was a Golden Age in a sense under the Erdtree.
Interesting other information that Marika doesn't have any fundamnetalist incantiotion but Rdagon and Miquella have, the only think I saw about Marika's reaserch is her bedchamber where we can see a lot of stone tables, but this is it really and it is can be from Morgott as well becasue she doesn'T used that room for ages. The other hand Radagondwas always curious, he learnd Golden Order Fundamentalism and even Sorcery from the Carians/Academy so it is show me that in fact Radagon was the more open minded, at least in practice he traveled and learned a lot in the different parts of the Lands Between. + Sorcery and Fundamentalism is scale with intelligence and sometimes faith as well, so it is show me that Radagon was not just blindly followed the Golden Order but that he was convinced that the Order was good. And as we can see what happened after the Shuttering I am more with Radagon than Marika, the Shuttering was so terrible I don't see how it is can be excused by anything.
Makes no sense. The Elden Ring is literally the Elden Beast; they are one and the same, and the Elden Beast is from the Greater Will. You can't separate the two. The Greater Will didn't co-opt anything. Let alone enslave anything. And Marika's Golden Order is HER order, she created it. Not the Greater Will. So all of the horrible stuff she did? All her.
Only just realised this, but Marika’s hammer, now broken, appears to have both the great runes of Marika (in the head) and Radagon (in the handle).
I think there is no Marika's runes in the hammer, only Radagon's. The runes in the hammer is the golden order rune, the same image when you cast litany of true death.
Interestingly, Marika seems try to only shatter Radagon's rune, not her. So the notion of Marika shattered the elden ring, when Radagon attempted to repair it is starting to make sense.
now THIS is the lore content I look forward to, none of that bullshit from Vaati
I love your lore videos. You have such insightful observations.
This was awesome!
Thanks so much for sharing.
I think the elden beast is what the dragons saw as their god.
Interesting that in the wiki I believe it’s said that the elden beast is like a dragon in shape and when you think about the references to alchemy in the game the elden beast itself, radagon, marika and the sacred relic sword all combined together to basically form the rebis of alchemy.
In the end you’re literally fighting the freaking rebis!
the elden beast is called nebula dragon in the game files so yeah
"Radagon is trying to prevent the start of a new age." - Radagwyn.
This is the best lore video Ive ever seen. Besides being very convincing and logically based, it elucidates the most important point in the story, which interestingly all of the other lore videos that Ive seen have not brought up.
I have a theory that the Crucible the primordial form of the erdtree didn't turn into what we know it as today until either the One Great mentioned by Hyetta split itself or something split it into two halves chaos and order. With order probably prevailing at least in the lands between that left the Golden Order to rule and any signs of chaos to be stamped out ie Godfrey and his crucible knights as well as the omens lingering remnants of the old crucible of life. This could also be why there were many two fingers while the only known three fingers were kept buried deep under Lyndell.
Best lore channel there is, awesome work dude
i think radagon wanting to keep the golden order together is very telling, considering he strived to be whole/complete his entire life, only to see us entering an "Age of Fracture" if we archieve the standard ending for the game and become elden lord. its the complete opposite of what he wanted.
Liked the video early, going to watch after work.
I think we can assume that during the period of the dragons the 3 fingers and the 2 fingers were whole and that is reflected in the elden rings extra runes
Shall we have a little debate?
Placidusax or Midir and why?
Midir bc bigger and more difficult and cooler looking
I absolutely love Placidusax, and Elden Ring is by far my favorite FromSoft game. But Midir is maybe the greatest dragon fight in any game ever- I'll never forget it. Better OST in my opinion too, one of DS3's best
I'd say it's even. Placudisax is alot more mechanically creative and unique, while midir is way more intense and satisfying to fight.
No points for Placodusax yet? I like both alot but he takes the cake for me, turning into thunderclouds and coming crashing down on us is just too cool
Also his thrusting sword is like a wet dream to me
Midir. I got destroyed so many times by him and then I learned how to counter him flawlessly. I felt like a god when I managed to beat him legit for the first time. Simply for this gameplay difference I prefer the ds3 dragon. Killing placidusax isn't as rewarding (though it is still rewarding and Placidusax is actually my 3rd favourite fromsoftware fight, right after the darkeater).
Out of a lore point of view midir is more tragic, having been brainwashed into serving gwyn's age of fire and keeping the darkness of humans in check only to become corrupted himself. He still fought however, even as the last of the dragons alive, he fought. Placidusax is more high fantasy-like being a dragonlord who ruled from his city in the sky and had the power to manipulate time and slay gods. He was betrayed by the greater will and defeated, but retreated to the eye of the storm and STOPPED TIME in his chamber, awaiting the moment for his revenge.
The arenas for both dragons are spectacular. The caves under the ringed city and what is basically a timeless throne room in the middle of a tornado.
Oh man I love your videos, so much insides and let ne say: you have a awesome voice!
The item description pertaining to Placidusax also mentions "Once his god was fled." This is the main reason people believe the dragons served a different outer god. Could this fled god be the greater will?
I take this to mean the original god of the lands between fled after he was defeated by the greater will when the crucible was cut down and the erd tree grafted on top of it.
@@lovableasshole like he said the fled God was probably just the Marika equivalent
Ratatoskr commented that he thinks this god is just like Queen Marika, not an Outer god.
I think Greater Will is something more than a God or outer Gods, something transcendent, a truely “greater” being.
Marika is also called a "true god", so I'm 100% sure this was his god-consort that fled. I wonder where she is.
A comment I made on another video which I think may fit here:
"My personal theory is different on the timeline; I think that the EB fell on the planet and shaped the logic and order of a world that much resembled our prehistoric age with dinosaurs. I think so because pf Hyetta's statements about the GW creating distinction and therefote unhappiness, combined with Gurranq's spells saying that the beasts received intellect and then realized (took them a while) that consciousness was a threat to their way of living.
I think it was this age that saw Placidusax as a lord, with the Elden Ring firmly in the hands of the kingdom of beasts, and I think it is correct to think that some notable human female figure lived with her three wolves in Farum Azula. I'd agree with you that she's likely to be Marika, otherwise Melina (or if you think the GEQ is not Melina, that leaves also her as an option).
I think while beasts ruled and otber factions developed their own civilization, the beasts grew skeptical of this orderly god and vice-versa, thus the GW left Placidusax and bombed down Farum Azula, with Marika possibly taking the Ring with her after killing its bearer.
This timeline hypothesis fixes a lot of holes explaining what the crucible age was like, the ring depicted in Maliketh's arena, Hyetta's words, and the fact that Marika and her crusades are undoubtedly NOT the start of all civilizations on the planet, yet the Ring appears to be exactly this. Simply put I think tbe GW started harnessing the crucible way before Marika's rise."
i think it makes more sense for that to be the gloam eyed queen since we know death used to rule before the erdtree, also its much more likely that farum azula was destroyed by the nox, what else could cause the two finger and three fingers to split if not for the finger slayer made by the nox, who could summon meteors if not the stars as wee see when they do it for ranni so she can reach the eternal city, also why do so many people wanna vilify the greater will at all costs, stop projecting real life biases into him he not the christian god
First, thanks for the video. This was all new to my understanding of the dragons but made soooooooooo much sense. It also finally connected something for me about Placidusax. He used to have five heads and now only has two. In your video, the primordial symbol has roots going out and the golden order symbol has a defined ring.
I have a theory that when Placidusax reigned, things were going okay, and the Greater Will decided to try and give “order” in the form of some free will for those it bestowed blessings on (hence, no barrier in the primordial).
Then, something went awry, and the Greater Will decided to sever three of the heads of Placidusax. This is important because the two fingers and placidusax’s current two heads, represent order, and the three fingers and placidusax’s missing three heads represent chaos (the branching free will in the primordial symbol). Somehow, in the new order, the Greater Will managed to seal away chaos and create Marika as the new vassal instead of Placidusax.
It’s also interesting that two fingers are the symbol of peace, the hand is similar to the “invisible hand” of Adam Smith, and three is only divisible by itself and 1 both of which are odd numbers. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm???????
And, Placidusax can inflict lightning damage (innate skills of the dragons), fire damage (which the frenzy flame uses), and holy damage (which the Golden Order uses)
This ties in nicely with my belief that Marika and Radagon grew to deeply resent eachother after the Shattering.
My current assumption for what Marika's goals are is that she wants change and she wants that change to come at the hands of one of the Tarnished who has struggled and gained wisdom from that struggle. Radagon wants nothing to change and believes he can repair the broken order.
Well said. If I can add anything it would be this:
I think the Greater Will wants to spread order as far as possible, but generally leaves the means up to its underlings. It’s willing to communicate with them (like the Two Fingers) but it does nothing more than provide counsel.
It falls in line with the focus on “Grace” under the Elden Ring. Grace is something given away to another. Consequently, once it is received, the recipient can do with it what he or she wills. The Greater Will literally seeds universes with the gift of order (based on the 3 fingers’ dialogue this was an intentional choice). The order gives birth to life, which gives birth to sapient beings that can comprehend the order (the beast miracles indicate the beasts were the first group of sapient beings in the Lands Between and this is backed up in Farum Azula). These sapient beings eventually become “gods” and the Elden Lord. They can then do with the order what they will.
This is why the order is at times pretty flexible. It can incorporate aspects foreign to the Greater Will because the order was built with flexibility in mind. However, I think Marika was the one responsible for ruining things. She becomes increasingly bloodthirsty and unhinged as time goes on and I think much of the in-universe vitriol directed at the Greater Will is misplaced and should be appropriately targeted at Marika. She became so power hungry that she sealed off the mechanism built in to the Elden Ring to facilitate the transition of Order. Then when the fingers, and at least one of her (or at least the male aspect of her) children turned on her for her actions, she shattered the Elden Ring out of a selfish desire to end her own life and consign everyone else to an age of torment.
Also. I didn’t get a chance to make this comment on your 3 fingers video, but I don’t believe the 3 fingers are servants of the Greater Will. Rather, I think they are rebels against it (filling the Luciferian role). This is further reinforced by Shabriri being named after a demon from Jewish folklore.
Causality and regression, as preached by the Golden Order Fundamentalists, appear to be transcendental teleology akin to Christian Eschatology (God is the origin of all being, and all being seeks unity with Him) (this link can shed further light on the parallels www.missiodeicatholic.org/p/the-metaphysics-of-beauty?s=r ) The oneness preached by the Three Fingers is more like the concept of oneness preached in Hinduism and Buddhism. It is the elimination of all distinction rather than the unity of telos. Regression does not imply the elimination of distinction, only the unity of meaning.
I think the Great Tree *is* the Erdtree. "Erdtree" is apparently a particular type or species of tree, you can find plenty of smaller Erdtrees throughout the Lands Between. Since there is more than one Erdtree, but one is of particular significance, it makes sense for it to have its own name. Supporting this, the Prince of Death Pustule says that Godfrey is buried among the roots of the Erdtree, and the Deathroot description states that after Godfrey's death, "...the Rune of Death spread across the Lands Between through the underground roots of the Greattree." If Godfrey is the Prince of Death, source of Deathroot, and he's buried among the Erdtree's roots, then it would follow that the Greattree and the Erdtree are one and the same.
1) you’re right, 2) in the very name of the helmet he cites, there’s an indication of this being the case. This helmet was worn by the female co leader of the crucible knights. Meanwhile, the other half of the CK were led by a man dorning axe imagery. If the axe knights are meant to represent Godfrey, as they obviously would, then it stands to reason that the female lead tree knights would represent none other than his queen, marika, and thus the erd tree. Hence erd tree = great tree.
Not a clear cut knockdown argument by any means, but a pretty serious clue I’d say.
Hey man, this was really good, reaalllllly good.
I don't think I've seen it observed elsewhere that Placidusax, when idle, looks similar to the Two Fingers when they are communing with the Greater Will.
Also, it appears as though he is missing a few heads.
There also others evidence supporting the link between the dragon and the Greater Will
From the Gravel Stone Seal description
« The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold. »
Lighting itself is said to inbued with Gold and we all know to who Gold is heavily associated . Also like there is Red or Yellow Gold in the game there is Red and Yellow lighting .
Not to mention that Plasidusax is described to be once golden himself and you can still see shimmering gold flakes on his body while fighting him.
@@kunibertrandolf1886 where he is described as Golden ?
@@mohamedlababidi9042 Misread, not he directly. You can see the gold remains on his body while his laser attack from "plasidusax' ruin" is described as "golden breath".
@@kunibertrandolf1886 good catch , also interestingly the description also speak on how he dwelled *eternal* it probably mean nothing and I’m overthink it but it make me draw some parallel with marika the *eternal*
Great analysis. This would also make sense of Goldmask's Mending rune description blaming the gods (Radagon/Marika)
@Ratatoskr dont forget out side the boss room to the elding beast is a giant symbol of the elden ring depicting along with the roots, radagons symbol and other details with it
Been waiting for this exact thing
I’m very happy to see this vid coming from you, I got dumpstered on Reddit for giving a very similar take. People couldn’t accept the idea that Radagon doesn’t serve the Greater Will.
Great video. Also note that Plasidusax's uses a golden breath attack which is associated with the Greater Will. The only thing I'm not so sure about is the Great Tree. Apparently some of the Great Tree descriptions were mistranslations, it is supposed to be plural, as in 'Great Trees' not 'Great Tree'.
Root Resin
"The roots of the Greattree(s) were once linked to those of the Erdtree, or so they say, and it is for this reason catacombs are built around Greattree(s) roots."
It seems that the Erdtree rebirths people as form of death once destin death was sealed away. Only heros are given an Erdtree burial. For others, who are too far from the Erdtree, they are buried in the catacombs. The Great Tree roots inside the catacombs suck up their spirts and pass them along to the Erdtree through their roots.
After the shattering these trees and the Erdtrees roots began to recede, now that the Elden Ring is not giving the Erdtree as much power. This means the catacombs stop serving their function, explaining why there are so many undead and spirts there now.
It could be the all the great trees grew from the crucible and the Erdtree gained prominence since it houses the Elden Ring.
CRUCIBLE TREE HELM
"Helm of the Crucible Knights who served Godfrey, the first Elden Lord.
The great tree ornamentation is the knight Siluria's mark, displayed also by her men.
Holds the power of the crucible of life, the primordial form of the Erdtree. Strengthens Aspects of the Crucible incantations."
However I do have an issue with my theory. Where are these Great Trees?
There seem to be many stumps and broken trees in the deep root depths (where you can get that Crucible Armor). This could be what is left of them?
If they are the minor Erdtrees this makes sense other than those being 'offspring' of the Erdtree. But if they are offspring, they are indeed very old.
The saplings we find are as old as the shattering (which seemed to have happened a very long time ago) and are tiny in comparison to the Minor Erdtrees.
STAFF OF THE AVATAR
'The avatars, emerging in the wake of the Elden Ring's shattering, were determined to protect the withering Erdtree's offspring."
GOLDEN SEED
'When the Elden Ring was shattered, these seeds flew from the Erdtree, scattering across the various lands, as if life itself knew that its end has come.'
Great vid!
This is a very well put together theory. Even though there are other options that supports the Ancient Dragons having their own Outer God, this one theory seems to put things together in a cleaner way.
Can you tell them to us ?
@@mohamedlababidi9042 among the many: after the war between The Golden Order and Ancient Dragons, the Ancient Dragons may have built Farum Azula in cooperation with Marika. Explaining why we see that statue of Marika sorrounded by wolves under the "Mega Elden Ring". Maliketh would have been a major part in this too as we see the influence of deathroot, and Maliketh's species of beastman across Farum Azula.
This was one of the earlier theories, and as you can see, it's rather complicated. Maybe some DLC will clarify the Ancient Dragons akward situation.
Great video! I also had this theory but people seem to be very against it for some reason.
There is also a relation between the Dragons and the Greater Will in how they seem to be related to gold. Ancient dragons have golden wings and Placidusax seems to have a layer of golden scales under the grey ones that are sometimes described as a sickness for the dragons which means that at one point they were completely golden and after the Greater Will abandoned them they started greying and turning to stone. This is also the case for the ancient dragon smithing stones and the dragon scale seal that follow this pattern. Additionally the Ruined Greatsword that was a part of Farum Azula at some point also has golden motives even tho the ruins don't have any
Another great video. Chapeau
Yeah I’ve been starting to think this aswell, it’s seems like parts of the order helped carry out its downfall, maybe the greater will wanted the order of the moon to rise, and it’s just an ever perpetually shifting thing like day and night.
Maybe Mercia did everything she did to stop the order from shifting, gihdion says she’s wants them to fight forever in stagnation, could be a thing where the order was at an end so she tryed breaking the cycle by breaking the order. Idk just an alternative idea to why Mercia had her hands in a bunch of stuff.
Yo, this makes a lot of sense, very solid.
Perfect video, glad you've helped to clear up two myths that have been spreading through the community: that the "dragon god" was an outer god, and that the rune of death was somehow a separate entity from the Elden Ring.
Where does it say that the Rune of Death was actually a part of the Elden Ring?
@@HijoDeDios999 Marika removes the rune of death from the Elden Ring; there are no other sources for runes in-game. Even the rune arcs and runes we get from enemies are miniscule fragments of the ring post-shattering. Additionally, the Farum Azula Elden Ring has an image of the rune of death at its bottom.
What does the "Erd" in "Erdtree" mean? Does it mean "earth"? "Home"? "Land"? How is the Erdtree different from the Great tree, not just physically, but also symbolically? Is it....bigger? Smaller? Glowy? If the Great Tree is the same thing as the Crucible, and the Crucible was the Primordial form of the Erdtree, and the Crucible once blended together all life, does that mean that at some point before the Great Tree changed into the Erdtree, "all" of (or a lot of) the living beings in the Lands Between were once sucked into the bowels of the Great Tree into a kind of molten soup? If that did happen, would it have to have been before the Age of Dragons, or after the Age of Dragons? Did the Great Tree still exist all the way up until Marika's actions transformed it into the Erdtree? Was the Great Tree visible above ground, or was its highest point still underground, around the Nameless Eternal City Ruins where we find Siluria guarding what may have been its stump?
Those are what I'm thinking about now. Good questions.
"What does the "Erd" in "Erdtree" mean?"
Literally German for 'dirt,' but perhaps more meaningfully accurately translated into English would be using the word 'earth' to denote dirt, like referring to dirt as 'earth.'
Couldn't say as to the other questions.
😂 all worship the Dirt-tree. Dirtiness > Greatness
@@DavidStavis What I actually think they were going for, was dirt as in 'earth,' and if that's the case, then it serves a nice double-meaning of dirt, and the planet, as in the world. The erdtree, dirt-tree, earth-tree. . . can you think of anything else you might call the 'earth-tree?' It's the world-tree.
I was beginning to think nobody else had reached this conclusion! Along the same lines, what do you think about the idea that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was the host of the Elden Ring before Marika? She controlled Destined Death (which was part of the Elden Ring), was backed by nobility (with all of her apostles bearing primordial Crucible-like elements like morphing bodies, tails, etc), was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers, and was arguably of the Numen/Eternal City like Marika (due to the Black Knife Assassin's use of Black Flame and the Eternal City's Godslaying blade). Nothing in the game outside of the Mending Rune of the Death Prince and Eina's dialog referencing how the Golden Order was created by removing and confining the Rune of Death talk about how Marika got a hold of the Elden Ring, this may be because with her position as the GO's One True God, acknowledging the Gloam-Eyed Queen and that Marika wasn't always a god would be extremely heretical.
In a similar vein, what are your thoughts on Godwyn? His presence and inclusion in the game kind of sticks out considering that no ending really resolves the issue he presents to the Lands Between. Personally, I believe that Godwyn exists to represent what the form of life was before the Elden Ring was created from the Crucible and the Elden Beast, before Order was imposed on Chaos - That of a single, soulless, constantly evolving and shifting primordial lifeform, feeding off the power of the Crucible, consuming anything it touched, and existing without birthing anything outside of itself. A primordial ooze, if you will. And when the Elden Beast came down, this thing was fractured, begetting births and evolution and all the myriad differentiated, but connected, forms of life that exist now.
This is why Godwyn, whose soul was killed, reverted to the all-consuming cancer we see he is now. Without a soul to give the gift (or curse, if you ask the Frenzied Flame), of individuality, his body regressed back into this undifferentiated being, which can infect and spread unchecked while feeding off the Crucible's power. This mimics the Golden Order's own Law of Regression, which states that all things eventually try to return to their original states - A principle embodied even by the Golden Order as an organization, as it originally was enemy to everything else, but over time came to incorporate many elements which it was once opposed to. If you were to believe in Miquella's theoretical future order of unalloyed gold, that would be a further expression of this idea, as his order was set to incorporate all the rejected elements that even the Golden Order wouldn't accept as part of itself.
You are on to something big here. Placidusax's title as Elden Lord really threw me for a loop but hearing your points here has clarified things a bit however there are three factors that are antagonistic to the idea that the Greater Will does not care for the Golden Order.
(1) the fight against the Elden Beast; suggest that the Tarnished becoming the Elden Lord is not supposed to happen. The Elden Beast is both a vassal of the Greater Will and the Elden Ring itself [Elden Beast Remembrance] and thus has the closest relationship to the Greater Will, if it is resistant to your ambitions for Lordship then the implication is that you are not meant to be Elden Lord...at least according to the Elden Ring's logic.
(2) The disconnect of the Two Fingers from the Greater Will and their staunch loyalty to Marika;
Through Enia's dialogue [About Marika] we learn that although the Two fingers acknowledge that Marika's actions lead to her being punished by the Elden beast they remain loyal to her still as she is a god....even though her actions violate whatever Order the Greater Will had planned (she would not have been imprisoned by the Elden Beast otherwise). The implication here is that, although reverent to the Greater Will, they are loyal to Marika. This is further validated by the fact that it was them who trained the tarnished for their goal to become Elden lord [Coded sword. all Two Finger Incantations descriptions].
All this disqualifies the authority the two Fingers have regarding their beliefs of the Greater Will's desires; I believe the Elden Beast has more authority regarding the Greater Will's desires than the Two Fingers; this is supported by their piety towards the Elden Ring and that they are forced to commune with the Greater Will after you have been denied by the Erdtree, an event supported by the Elden Beast [ the final boss fight].
(3) The nature of Radagon's character;
is presented to us as utterly loyal to the Elden Ring and its Order. His leaving Rennala for the Golden Order despite their fruitful marriage, Marrying Marika despite opposing her ideals [Melina dialogue, Marika's bed chamber], fixing the Elden Ring. All this implies that Radagon placed the Golden Order first before his own desires. And that the Elden Beast would oppose you lends credence to this idea; the takeaway being that he was not acting to sustain his own power as Elden Lord (The Elden Beast would accept your rule otherwise) but rather he was protecting the Elden ring from you and others.
Interesting plus information that when we give Corhyn any prayerbook that it's from the Two Finger incantiotion he is considere it heretical. It is strange that if the Two Fingers are really loyal to the Golden Order and the Greater Will why Corhyn think that there incantiotions are heretical?
Automatically subscribed due to your name. Skitter up the Erdtree and whisper sass in my ear!
My opinion is Ranni (and/or possibly Melina since they have some connection I don't fully understand) was the dusk-eyed queen. Her corpse has jewelry that looks like that of the godskin apostles. There is no mention of when the Dusk Eyed Queen was deprived of the rune of death by Maliketh. Everyone assumes she had it "first" as its original possessor. But she might have stolen it and and BECAME the possessor, and done so much later than I'm sure many would think. The description of Scouring Black Flame states, "when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost." Now, there is some interpretation here as to what "sealed" means, does it mean sealed it in the black blade or sealed it in his own body? I interpret it as the latter. Maliketh inarguably sealed Destined Death in his body AFTER the Night of Black Knives. Are we to believe the godskin apostles were unchecked the entire time Maliketh held the black blade until that point?
As to the Godskin Apostles, there are other ties to Ranni. The timeline lines up for the apostles losing their power when Maliketh takes back the rune of death from Ranni. It is undeniable Ranni was allied with Rykard, and in Rykard's manor is a Godskin Noble. Perhaps an old agent of Ranni who was swayed by Rykard's serpent cult while in hiding at his manor, wanting a new way to kill the gods now that the black flame lost its potency? Things just seem to line up when you really read into things. We see a godskin noble at the Divine Tower of Liurnia too, guarding the bridge, almost like he is protecting Ranni's corpse from snooping. Finally, the whole reason there are fire monks all the way in Liurnia is they came in pursuit of a fugitive who stole the power of the giant's flame, which is what the apostles corrupted with the rune of death into the black flame.
6:05 damn that realization gives Radagon's aggression a lot of meaning
Don’t think so. Placidusax’s remembrance states “once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return”. It’s kinda a stretch to interpret the greater will as their god as well.
I think it’s more plausible that the elden ring’s symbols evolved from that of the primordial tree. Which is why they look similar
I don’t see the counter argument?
god does not mean Outer God though, both Marika and Malenia are referred to as god, so in-game wise god can mean someone that's powered by an outer god.
I feel like this comment actually supports the theory that it’s not referring to an outer god, because it says he was a Lord. A Lord serves a God that is on this plane, like Godfrey served Marika, and Radagon as well before she started doubting.
@@sunless9782 A lord does not have to serve a god that is still "on this plane", you're just making things up now. If the greater will is the "god" in this case, it definitely didn't "flee" from anything, it "abandoned" them if anything else. The wording of the last sentence in the remembrance makes zero sense if it was the greater will.
@@starwish6278 I didn't say outer god, just not the greater will
There is something that came to my mind when I was thinking about this video... so..
This is what Hyetta says:
"Thank... thank you... I have touched them. The words of the Three Fingers. As your maiden, allow me to divine them. All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake. And so, what was borrowed must be returned. Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame. Until all is One again."
Then we have:
- One Great who is a different thing then the Greater Will
- Greater Will who is served by two fingers
- Frenzied Flame who is served by three fingers
Two fingers and three fingers together from a hand so perhaps at one point they were one. Similarly Greater Will and Frenzied Flame at one point were One Great and then fractured.
When we look at Placidusax we can see that at one point he had 5 heads but now only 2 are left. So perhaps Placidusax was an Elden Lord to the One Great? This is why the Elden Ring in Azula is bigger... because it was an elden ring of the One Great.
Also we can see that the fragments of ruins that fall from Azula can be blessed by either two fingers and turn into Warming Stone or by Three Fingers and turn into Frenzyflame Stone.
Also.. I just found this:
"Short sword given to high ranking clergymen of Farum Azula. Raises potency of bestial incantations. The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind."
Five Fingers
you are absolutely correct, the nox probably got the finger slayer by killing placi's god
It's auspicious that you posted this now. I've been thinking about this lore for a while and I really like this theory. Now I'm going to recklessly speculate on various things you didn't touch on and come up with my own ideas on what the lore is.
So, what do we know about Plasidusax? Well, reading his various stuff we know he was an Elden Lord. What are Elden Lords? They're lords in service and marriage with whatever physical god the Greater Will selects to hold the Elden Ring. What's strange about Plasidusax is that it appears he came before the Erdtree and the falling star that was the Elden Beast. One thing we can infer about Plasidusax is that he's very, VERY ancient. Probably primordial. So if we want to know more about him we'll have to look far back.
So what's the most ancient god we really know of? If the Frenzied Flame is to be believed, it's the 'one great'. A common fan idea is that the two fingers and three fingers used to be one hand with five fingers; this would presumably be the representative of the 'One Great', the combination of order and chaos synthesized together that created life. Symbolically, the reason why the hand is split is to represent the divide between chaos and order. There's some hints to this in some of the lore, although it takes a lot of leaps and stretches. For example in Liurnia you have the 'Manus Celes' or celestial hand cathedral. You have the Cinquedea, which says 'The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind.' showing that five fingers are associated with sentience and intelligence. If we look at Plasidusax he clearly had more than one head, in fact it appears he had five!
One thing we know about the Greater Will/Golden Order that will become relevant later is that they really like humans and dislikes aberrations or mutants. That's why Misbegotten and Omen's seem to not be allowed to become one with the Erdtree. That's why things like primordial crucible worship seem to be so heavily disliked by the faith, as it perverts the human form with wings and horns. It make sense when you reflect it back onto our own world, and how we tend to anthropomorphize everything. Nothing about the universe says humanity is the perfect form, the perfect animal, the perfect being, but in some psychological way we feel like the universe really does revolved around us. So, why would the Greater Will select a dragon as an Elden Lord? Perhaps you are right and the Greater Will just doesn't care who the vessel is, I have a different theory however, that the Greater Will was part of the One Great in the past.
Now I'm going into MatPat esque territory, you've been warned.
If we accept the idea of the 'One Great', perhaps before it's split it gave a primordial or different Elden Ring to a Dragon, who became a god. This dragon chose a Lord, Plasidusax. Plasidusax gained tons of power and grew several heads as a sort of resemblance to the 'Great Hand'; three heads that were chaotic and destructive, and two powerful heads that were strong but not as chaotic that could rule properly an order of dragons. They ruled over parts of the Lands Between (The Lands Between in Primordial times likely looked WAY DIFFERENT, but there's probably some similarities like the mountain tops were the giants lived) as powerful beings while the One Great gave life to beasts. These beasts acted as servants to the dragons, and perhaps some even evolved into humans
Eventually though, the One Great split into Order and Chaos as the two ideas are opposed to each other. The order aspect of the One Great became the Greater Will. The Greater Will stole the Primordial Elden Ring and thus the dragon god, along with the several humans it viewed as the perfect people to create it's perfect order. In the cosmos, the Greater Will refined the Dragon God into the Elden Beast; it took a being of stone and got rid of what it saw as 'slag' creating a great large golden creature. It essentially went through the process of refining a metal, symbolizing the age of ancient stone into an age of order and gold. It also created the race of humans known as Numens -- Numen is a word that when you look it up it means Divine. This is the reason why I feel like they were a people created by the One Great or the Greater Will, there's also the fact that they are associated with powerful runes like THE numen runes you find around the world.
It sent back down the Numen people to this world, and later on sent the Elden Beast back down as well in a marvelous crash that created the central sea we see in the land's between today. This destroyed most of the previous old civilization and the old Great Tree. This beast required a host to survive and chose Marika.
Blah blah blah. Fast forward and I think Plasidusax after retreating eventually returns finds out about Marika. He's very pissed and confused, and sees this as someone stealing and usurping his and his god's rightful power. The Erdtree order and Plasidusax fight, and it eventually ends with Godwyn cutting off the dragon's three chaos heads and pacifying him. Still confused and crestfallen, the dragon promises not to attack the Erdtree and makes friendship with Godwyn.
Returning to the skys, the dragon along with it's fellow ancient dragons create a large stone temple for it to rest in using the dead bodies from the previous war. Plasidusax lifts this temple high with a great vortex. Using his immense power, in confusion, fear and sadness he tries to manipulate time to a more nostalgic and better age, when dragon's ruled the world. When he's not trying to turn back time perhaps he's thinking about how he wishes for his god to return. Sadly, none of this works, he doesn't heal from his injuries, and parts and pieces of the temple fall off into the world as time passes, with the magical energy used to keep Farum Azule lifted waning. Without his leadership the dragon race is eventually corrupted into the lesser, greedier breeds we see today. These greedy dragons are hunted and slain by humans, or kept as servants as with the case of Ranni and her dragon.
All of this plays into the themes of immortality coming with great cost, and nothing lasting forever. While what happened to Plasidusax might not have been right, but he should have realized that his age of being a tyrant and ruling over everything was over. He refused to adapt though, and stuck to being like a stone, the thing men and beasts used as tools and weapons.
Interesting, well thought out interpretation, although it may as well be more aptly described as an intimation or intuitive thesis because of the vagueness and ambiguity of the lore. It is however, not as ambiguous as it may seem to people unfamiliar with such storytelling, as deliberate distinctions are made between important linguistic terms, and the problem of interpretation is largely a problem of translation, of the ambiguity of the semantics- besides, this is what makes the lore fun and appealing in large part. I was surprised to see so many interesting comments on this video. Its good to know that there are many creative minds that analyze and theorize well with intuition. They are also very well written- eloquent not for the sake of demogogy or to impress, but to more accurately impart meaning. They are actually interested in the story and use the linguistic tools to better communicate their thoughts and interpretations of it. Where where these people in school? I was genuinely interested in almost each and every comment I read, and impressed by the concision and coherence. These boys are the smartest community on the internet.
i find it so funny when people say "immortality bad" when in reality that is the opposite of the message
in dark souls you are made to believe its a curse until you find out the gods are the ones who cursed you and dying is a curse that makes you souls sink to the depths of the world and constantly suffer as a soul dreg
in sekiro immortality is bad because stagnation until you realize that the real element of the dragon is life-steal and that that its draining people causing dragon-rot which can be healed, so it has nothing to do with
you would think that after so many games people would learn to look for the deeper message but instead they just stick with what they are used too "immortality bad"
very well thought out video, as usual.
I'd like to give you an input, do you see a connection with gnosticism?
Specifically Ranni's age of stars with techno-gnosticism. I see this link in the transhumanist rejection of the body and of a single governing principle in most magic users (Sellen's questline, Rennala's power to remake and give new birth). It is also very close to solipsism, which could be argued is an inevitability for following this line
Maybe off topic for this video but
Have you noticed that Hoarah Loux in the intro is also impaled and crucified exactly like Marika?
Its a thought that popped up in my head that an Empyrean and Her King Consort (chosen or not) may be linked on a metaphysical level. A wound that appears on one also appears on the other. Maybe it is even fate.
We see this repeated later with Ranni and Godwyn and their respective cursemarks.
I think that D might give hints as to what's up with that.
Thank you very much for this concise, thoughtful insight into your thinking.
This reminded me of a particular detail, but I feel the meaning would heavily depend a person's perception of "gold" in the ER world.
For instance, if you see "gold" as a fundamental property of the world (like a force maybe, and perhaps why its unalloyed form can seemingly shield against Outer Gods); gold as somehow inherently connected to the Greater Will (maybe bestowed by it, or GW as its embodiment); gold as the Greater Will's chosen tool; a wibbly mixture; unknowable; or something else. I would hate to suggest that a reductive or clear 'answer' is possible too, those little summaries aren't meant to convey that.
I feel a person's view on gold and its bestowal could help with perceived connection between the Greater Will and the age of dragons. Specifically, I think it could be helpful to people that think there's a significant connection between the Greater Will and gold.
Items like the Gravel Stone Seal claim that there's no conflict between belief in the Erdtree and worship of the dragons due to both being imbued with gold. Flowing from that, I'd guess that could have meaning to people that associate the two ages with the Greater Will. If the inclusion of gold within a current Order is treated as a marker of the Greater Will's intended involvement then I imagine it might also change the framing of other details (as well as those mentioned in the video) - the gold in dragon wings; the gold veins in draconic stone; and the colour of primordial gold being, in my mind, prominent throughout Farum Azula (the chests, the lightning, the trees, the recurring motifs in the stone around FA).
If I let myself assume a connection between the Greater Will and dragons then other little details feel fitting. For example, Placidusax's remaining two heads straining towards the sky feels like a fitting mirror of the Two Fingers' attempt to commune. I can value the futility of both being abandoned by it and both waiting forever.
Maybe it's entirely tangential or wrong. While there are lots of alternative readings, I can enjoy the connections my brain could rummage through due to the video. It's a fun lens to look through. I'm very, very grateful for that and just grateful to hear another perspective.
I just realized, the Farum Azula Elden Ring has a double helix pattern going down the center that resembles the sword that Marika/Radagon are transformed into
Ye
Very good video, my interpretation was a bit different though. See I took the Elden Beast to be the "god" that fled Farum Azula, as when you beat the Elden Beast, you get the message "god slain", and that's also why in my head I figure the Elden Beast looks a lot like a dragon, perhaps it first took that form as the god of the dragons. Also I don't think that the Erdtree is the evolved form of the Greattree, looking at the description of Root Resin "Resin secreted from the roots of the Greattree.
Can also be found near trees on the surface. Material used in crafting items. The roots of the Greattree were once linked to those of the Erdtree, or so they say, and it is for this reason catacombs are built around Greattree roots." this kind of implies the two trees being separate, but linked.
Dude thank you! I have been thinking that the Greater Will has an agenda bigger than the golden order. I think you're spot on. I think it also fits the name "Greater Will". "Greater Will" seems to me to sound different and more grand than the names of the other outer gods like 'frenzied flame' and 'formless mother'.
Just found your channel, and I appreciate the the concise nature of the video. This seems like an astute analysis. My main question is: why do you say the Greattree "devolved" into the Erdtree?
Couldn't it have been an evolution? Or just a neutral change?
appreciate your content
Just found ur channel today, love the name, I would’ve take nidhogrr though
Enlightening, thank you.
I always love the background music you pick... Would you be fine with typing the names of the tracks in the description?
What about the Elden Beast though? Is it trying to uphold the Golden Order or is it just testing to see if you are strong enough to become Elden Lord?
Marika is said to want you to struggle unto eternity in Gideon's words. This feeds the erdtree. As shown by radagon sealing the tree they don't actually want you to become lord that isn't part of the plan so the elden beast is actually fighting you not testing you
There's something important to consider here. Depending on how you interpret the Elden Stars lore, it could mean that the Elden Beast became the Elden Ring, or the star that bore the Elden Beast became the Elden Ring. I want to believe that the latter interpretation is the correct one, since we see Radagon and Marika, who themselves house the Elden Ring, are seperate individuals from the Elden Beast itself. The Star that became the Elden Ring was a tool of the Elden Beast, not the beast itself.
However, let's go a step further here. Since there is evidence that the Elden Ring existed in the prehistoric era, there's a possibility that the Elden Ring was something that existed before the arrival of the Elden Beast, just in a different form. So, what if, and hear me out, because this gets weird... what if the Elden Ring was stolen by the Golden Star and taken into itself, and in that way, *became* the Elden Ring. How is that possible? Well, what if Marika *is* that Golden Star from long ago, simply changed into a person. A tool of the Elden Beast, they took the primitive form of the Elden Ring, stole it for their master, and took it into herself to become the ideal tool the Elden Beast could use to control the world.
As we see in the final battle, Radagan and Marika are something that the Elden Beast can shape into whatever form it deems necessary. A beautiful woman so as to seduce a powerful barbarian warlord to serve as a tool of conquest. A handsome warrior, to seduce a queen whose nation had proven too difficult to conquer. A husband and wife, to rule over the land with absolute authority. However, the longer this "tool" existed, the more it gained a will of its own and a desire to be free of its master. Marika, being the "older" of the two personas, gained a desire to free herself and the world from its master, and so shattered herself and the Elden Ring, breaking her master's control over the world. However, Radagon, still subservient to their master, prevented the shattering from being completed.
Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but the fact that there's more than one way to translate that lore makes it an interesting question as to which one is correct.
I honestly thi k you're mostly correct from the descriptions of the last great sword you get and the cutscene where the Elden beast brings the sword out of the water. Marika isn't a person, she never speaks to the player or moves.
@@muffinxcancer But she does speak, and has many times in history, just like a normal person. Radagon doesn't speak to us because at that moment he is pretty much controlled by the Elden ring,but it could still have an interesting reason. Not even a death dialogue,when he fails to fulfill his purpose. That doesn't discredit OP's theory though of course.
I don't think it is right, Radagon was not created to seduce the Carian Queen and his was it's own person as well. I think Marika and Radagon were in conflict not because one have gain free will but the other not, but because they had different ideals and belifes. We know that Radagon was a very good fundamentalist and he learned sorcery from the Academy and possible from Rennala herself, it si pretty juch show me that he was a very smart guy and a good warrior as well. The other hand we see that Marika is more connected to the Erdtree and the more primordial belifes, as she is connected to Godfrey and the crucible knights, interestingly Marika who started the Golden Order fundamentalism as we can learn it from Melina in the church where we can fing the Golden Order Seal, but in the same time she never did any fundamentalism herself, she doesn't develpoed any incantiotion in the fundamentalist school, but the other hand Radagon and even Miquella are.
It is more a meta think to say but I belive the reasen is that Marika, as a women, were more interested the more mystical personal religious life and compered to it Rdagon and Miquella as males are were more interested in the hard line theological and logical part of the religioun.
I’d like to remind everyone that Radagon and Marika are one and the same.
@@bollywongaloid Only to an extent, and that might not have always been the case. They clearly have conflicting wills too.
I wasnt the biggest fan of this game, but the lore and design really makes me hope they make a dlc to expand on it all
What's even more interesting is that the Crucible Spells and Elden Stars share the SAME EMBLEMS; implying whatever the primordial Elden Ring that GW created, and the Crucible/Great Tree, are one and the same.
I know everyone likes to hate on GW, but if for once everyone can be open minded and see the truth: that the GW indeed created life on Lands Between through the Elden Ring. It's just that it doesn't have direct control over the planet, and hence it's underlings sometimes get to misuse the powers of the Elden Ring: just like how Marika and Radagon commanded wars over wars on the minorities during their times.
Also nice video, your video pretty much sums up everything i believed was true and need to be made clear in the community; that the Dragons indeed were allied to the Elden Ring and by extension to the Greater Will at some point, hell Placidussax's pose even looks like as if he's trying to communicate with the Greater Will, just like the Two Fingers.
The Crucible Spells, Elden Stars, Blessing of The Erdtree, and Blessings Boon are all called Ancient Erdtree Incantations. And many items state that the Crucible is the primordial form of the Erdtree. Along with the depiction of the Elden RIng in Farum Azula, to me it seems that the Greater Will and the Elden Ring itself have been around in the Lands Between for much longer than most people realize.
@@MetalCaffeine56 same thought here as well, but sadly people seem to be hellbent on portraying the Greater Will as evil
@@chronoshindou9848 Yeah, I think people tend to conflate the Greater Will with the Golden Order and its followers. Even though the only time the Greater Will was remotely stated to be hostile was with the Nox, and even that was because they developed a weapon that could harm it and its vassals.
I also think that the Elden Star became the Elden Ring not the Elden Beast. But hey.. yes I agree about the Radagon part. Radagon wants to preserve the Golden Order while the player wants to reforge it and this is what we do. We reforge the order into something new with an appropriate mending rune.
Elden Beast is the Elden Ring.
@@lordanonimmo7699 Elden Stars incantation has a bad grammar which allows for two interpretations but it makes more sense if it is the Elden Star. That is because the ring is shattered and the beast is not and because the beast doesn't emerge from Radagon.
@@shogomakishima7224 The beast emerges from Radagon and is shattered,look at his design it has cracks on it.
@@lordanonimmo7699 I don't see it. The beast emerges from the darkness on the floor and then pushes Radagon into it only to pull out a sword. I don't see any cracks on the beast. On Radagon yes but on the beast no.
@@shogomakishima7224 The beast has cracks where you make a critical attack,in its belly.The beast emerges from the black thing that is leaking from Radagon.
I mostly agree with you, but i will suggest you look more into the translation from the original japanese text regarding the supposed "great tree". In the Italian community a very well known Souls lore creator (Sabaku no Maiku) has a collaborator who knows japanese and made him translate the descriptions directly from the japanese game language: turns out that the Erdtree and the "great tree" are the same thing in japanese, just translated in different ways across different description.
Fascinating, I like it.
Great video! All your work has been super interesting.
I am asking for help on an idea.
So the greater will and it's two fingers are one side of the coin and the Frenzied flame and its three fingers are the other side of the coin, from what i gathered from one of your previous videos.
And the greater will empowers Marika and Radagon, them being two people in one body.
The omen twins being Marikas kids, and the twins Melana and Miquella being Merika's kids.
Does it not stand to reason that Godwyn also was a twin?
I posit he was.
I posit his twin was Ranni.
I think when Radagon seperated from Merika when Godwin and ranni were born.
Being the children born by the body of Merika/Radagon, one had red hair, the other blonde.
Her cursed red hair possibly throwing Ranni and Godwyn's births legitimacy into question. (No one knew radagon was Merika, including Godfrey). So radagan took custody of Ranni as a babe.
He went south with Ranni and an army but ended up forming a union with rennala. (Maybe).
Rennala then actepted this new adopted daughter as her own. And Ranni got her name and became closest with her adopted mother..
Ranni is really the blood child of Merika and Godfrey.
This would explain Ranni as an Empyrian. It would help explain why it needed to be godwyn sacrificed on the night of black knives. He was her other half.
Im sure there might be info that destroys this idea, but I think it sounds plausible and cool.
Neither Rahdan or Rykard are twins being born of Rennala and Radagon. And even if one was called firstborn, that would still hold true since ranni was not born to Rennala.
What do you all think?
I'm glad to see this video, because I kept thinking to myself that nothing I've seen says that Marika was the *first* vessel elevated to godhood by the Elden Beast/Ring. The acceptance of the dragon cult, and friendship between the dragons and Godwyn suggests that they were all followers of the Greater Will, even if the age of the Draconic Order (to coin a phrase) was over, and the age of the Golden Order had begun. I'm very curious about who the god of the Draconic Order could have been (presumably a dragon, but not 100%), and where the Gloam-Eyed Queen fits into the timeline. Interesting that her servants, the Godskin Duo, are present in Farum Azula... perhaps they're just following Maliketh in hopes of re-taking Destined Death, but I'm not sure.
If the elden ring was more powerful and elaborate before, the question arises of what was the force capable of destroying it? If the tarnished struggled as they did, even with the assistance of hugely powerful forces, against a much lesser version of the already shattered rings forces? (A prequel game could have enemies and powers vastly bigger than elden ring)
Bruh it was Marika who destroyed it
@@HijoDeDios999 the dragons ring? Or her own?
@@stormbreak13 Same thing
@@HijoDeDios999 no though, that's the whole point, the dragons rune was different- bigger, more elaborate
@@stormbreak13 Yeah as it was the Elden Ring in it's primordial form
Someone linked me this video and I’m not familiar enough with your content since then to know whether you’ve addressed this elsewhere but I don’t see it as an addendum in your pinned message nor did I see anyone raising this point here, so hopefully this’ll be news to you :
The crucible incantations’ picture you showed, they definitely are not pictures of the crucible. We can know that from two things, 1) the same picture can be found in the background of the « blessing/boon of the erd tree » spells, so it’s not just crucible spells, 2) the crucible spells themselves literally start off in their description with « one of the ancient erdtree incantation ».
It seems to me pretty clear that this is a picture of the erd tree in its youth, when it still bore some of the chaoticness of the crucible and was filled with life.
Also I don’t know if you brought that up elsewhere either but I think the interpretation you gave of the siluria helmet is wrong too. In fact I don’t think it takes much effort to conclude that it’s not referring to any tree other than the erd tree. Here’s my reasoning :
The crucible knights are divided in two categories. You’ve cited those led by siluria, a woman, who use trees as their emblem, but on the other hand there were those led by ordovis, a man. Ordovis’s iconography is centered around axes. They are on his helmet, his pauldrons, and in the name of his set. « axe » would be obviously referring to godfrey, as the axe he uses is a symbol of his position and lineage. If the male led axe knights represent Godfrey, then it stands to reason that the female led tree knights would represent his wife, and therefore the tree is marika’s tree, the erd tree.
Dragons were definitely the prior possessors of the Elden Ring, if you look at Placidusax or the wings of the ancient dragons Lansseax and Fortissax (and maybe others, I'm not sure), there are flecks of gold on them, gold that has become gradually stripped from their scales. The dragons themselves have become Tarnished in a sense. I think thats neat.
I just hit NG+ after 99 hours. I did not meet Placidusax but he's on my to-do list this time 😎
Ng+ is even more enjoyable than my first playthru. Quite comfortable so far XD I almost know what I'm doing now!
Totally interesting, I love that older Elden seal..!
This might be totally dumb but
is the world where the Lands Between rests called Erd? I had this thought in the supermarket the other day. It's dumb, I'm (still) trying to remember if there was any grounds for thinking it
I agree. The conclusion I've come to us that the Greater Will just cares that it has an agent in the Lands Between. Marika tried to break it's control, it seems, and the Will is pushing you to re-establish it.
The choice, though, is up to you.
One question I have is in the final battle when we fight the Elden Beast you can see in the distance multiple pillars/trees that greatly resembles the pillars you see in Bloodborne's Hunters Dream, does that mean there are multiple Great Trees around the world or different planets and each one of them having their own Elden Ring and vassal beasts or do they belong to different outer gods.
I mean.... its not called the Lands Between for nothing. Its the Land Between Worlds.
So likely its just all connected. An astral plane to show the vaste reach of these outer gods.
I have the impressiom that another plot twist awaits, especially on the crucible part.
I like the Radagon-Gwyn parallel
Radagon don't want to be replaced because in fact, he is Marika and SHE don't want to be replaced. Her and the Golden Order
What’s the music playing in the background at the start of the video?
Related theory: the flame of frenzy is part of the greater will too, the three fingers and two fingers were once 5 in the crucible, and the golden order split them in two, divided things and declared this righteous and that heretical. Heresy is a contrivance, after all, and what is shunned by the Golden Order isn't necessarily an enemy of the greater will
And while I'm at it, I expect a dlc featuring the gloam-eyed queen, some elaboration on the black-knife assassins, and some answers as to what happened to the eternal city and why the nox are determined to make a lord with the silver tears. I think what I mentioned above are connected in some way. We'll have to wait and see though. The nox were once numen, it seems, as were the black knife assassins and Marika, and learning that the gloam-eyed queen is also numen wouldn't surprise me, nor would her involvement in the banishment of the eternal cities.
@@grouchypotatowolfpack5580 numen > nox > eternal, maybe eternal as in marika the eternal is just a moniker for the numen since they live so long whle nox is a nationality
Instasub. You're doing good work here.
"The Golden Order" cut the Erdtree out completely.
Im so happy that you mentioned the Gloam Eyed Queen too. Because the Noble Presence incantation, in addition to the Wrath of Gold incantation prove that the Shattering happened before or during the war with the Gloam Eyed Queen.
And the Sword Memorial outside the Stormcaller church mentions how Godfrey "fought to the last" which is how you refer to someone when they die. Godfrey has been dead since the war with the dragons. Fortissax aka Fia has been keeping him "alive" since then.
I'm sorry but the Gloam eyed queen was defeated before the shattering. It's a common mistake because taking the death rune out of the ring seems like it would happen when the ring was shattered.
We know this first of all because the Mending Rune of the death prince states, The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death."
also Ranni stole destined death from maliketh so the black knives could assassinate Godwyn. We know this happens before the shattering check Rogier says to confirm this time line.
Maliketh doesn't get the rune till he defeats the gloam eye queen.
Also that's an interesting idea about godfrey dying, and I could be the case. however the punctuation and phrase "fought to the last" can go as he fought the dragons to the last. the lack of ownership in the sentence gives it two meanings. The quote starts with "the routing of the dragons" can also mean two different things. we'd need the literal translation to know for sure but that would definitely through a wrench into the theories if it's yours.
I like this take, you can draw a lot of parallels between Dark Souls and the Age of Fire with Radagon trying to preserve his Age instead of letting it pass on to the next heir.
I think it’s interesting that death seems to have worked a little differently in the time before the Erdtree. Now, people are buried near the roots of the Greattree/Erdtree with the hopes that their souls will be taken up into the Erdtree and recycled. But before the Erdtree, bodies and maybe souls were burned with ghostflame, with the Deathbirds tending to those fires.
I guess even despite what the old crones say the only really bad ending for the fingers is the Frenzied flame ending. Then again how would they feel about Ranni's? There would still be order but their ability to influence that order would be reduced significantly. Or at least that's my understanding.