The Greattree actually did exist | Elden Ring Archaeology Ep. 10
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Elden Ring Lore: The Greattree once dominated the Lands Between, long before the Erdtree. What happened to it? How is it related to the Erdtree? And why is it important up to this day for the fate of the Lands Between? Find out as we dig down to the roots of lore in Elden Ring's ancient past.
"The Greatree", Part IV of the series Elden Empires: Risen and Felled.
• The Godfrey and Marika...
The wonderful music samples are by Danheim & Gealdýr - Ymir. Check out their channel:
/ @vikinged
and by Alex Roe - Ljós Detta:
/ @alex-roe
#eldenring #eldenringlore # greattree #crucible #tarnishedarchaeologist
Key Artifacts:
Old Tjikko, Dalarna, Sweden, c. 9000 BCE
Gameplay footage/music credit: Elden Ring, Dark Souls 3, Dark Souls, Bandai Namco and FromSoftware.
Creative Commons and stock attributions:
Images:
Old Tjikko, Karl Brodowsky; botany, roots, Protofantasy Community Forum; NCSU Libraries; Erdtree door -Wonder-Bread-; Pando map, Lance Oditt; Pando fall, J Zapell; Theseus and Ariadne, Game of Mythology (1644), Stefano della Bella; Ship kylix, Zde; Plutarch, Zde; Aspen, Scott Catron.
Video samples:
Worlds oldest tree Old Tjikko, Framebrains, Around You aroundyou.se
Spring time in the park, Maximilian Schönherr; That Wanaka Tree, Jonathan Khoo; Forest for the trees, Open Earth; Alaska Melting Glacier, USFWS; Dachstein peak, stone circle, videvo;
Contents of the Video
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0:00 Intro
1:20 Old Tjikko
3:25 Elden Ring's Trees
5:20 Ancient roots
6:40 Sprouts
8:45 To tree or not to tree
11:15 Conclusions - Hry
Hi all, pinning this comment from user @baltoy :
Hi! So, the previous video caused a lot of controversy and discussion in the comment section, and while there were some people who took the whole matter way too seriously and started to heating up a bit too much, there was also some valid criticism and thoughtful debate I feel it needs to be addressed by both parts. I think we were able to reach some interesting conclusions, so let’s look them up.
Originally, I was very skeptical on the whole Greattree topic. We all know pretty well that the precise term is a bit shady when it comes to localization, but I think this wasn’t the main issue I and many others had. The very tepid response some of us had in regard of the “Greattree”, I believe, originated from the fact this concept was used a lot in older theories that conceived this tree as pre-existing the Elden Ring as a whole, or as a total separate entity from the current Erdtree.
I think this pre-existing bias prevented many of us to listening carefully at what was been said, as the general chronology provided by the video is actually pretty solid based on the information the game provides. For a moment, let’s just not use the infamous word “Greattree” and let’s try to put the current reconstruction in order. Of course, here I’m interpreting what TA said during the series, so if I’m misinterpreting something let me know!
1) The Elden Beast was sent on the Lands Between and it became the Elden Ring - the ring being the first event in the timeline is confirmed by the depiction on the Erdtree’s door, which has the Elden Ring below both the trees iconography, and by Hyetta’s JPN dialogue on the One Great fracturing. For further reference, SmoughTown timeline video [which is also in collaboration with TA btw, give it a shot] addresses this pretty well.
2) From the Elden Ring, a tree sprouted. We know a tree which drew its power from the Elden Ring existed since the most ancient of times, both from the depiction on the Erdtree’s door and the many tree iconographies scattered through the the Ancient Dynasty ruins. Again, I’m not naming this entity in any particular way.
3) This is the most uncertain point in the timeline, but it’s possible this tree main body was cut at some point - leaving only its stump and the large root apparatus below. This is hinted by the Crucible depictions during the age of Godfrey [see: Siluria’s Tree, many statues in Leyndell], which evoke the process of a plant resprouting from its stomp.
4) From that resprouting stomp, the Erdtree emerged. Now, this is really important to understand: this does not imply by any means the original tree just died there, and a totally unrelated new one was born from the Elden Ring. The original tree regrew from what was left of it, and what came next was a “genetically” identical entity from the previous one. This was the point that had been made bringing up the Ship of Theseus paradox: although entirely new in its composition, the Erdtree and the “previous tree” are the same exact being.
So, to people who strongly disagreed with the original video: do you have objections regarding the actual chronology of events now that I didn’t mention any “Greattree”, or it was a mere nomenclature problem? I’m genuinely asking this, because it took me a while to realize that, for me, it was the latter.
But now, let’s be really obnoxious and talk about this nomenclature issue. After discussing this with others in the comment section, I believe the “Greattree” isn’t really the main issue here. We did acknowledge the precise word could be a localization artifact and not be originally intended by the creative team, but in the lack of better terms isn’t it fair to use a convenient word to express an existing concept? I don’t see problems in that.
The real, main problem I have with the current reconstruction is different: that is, placing the Crucible that far in timeline as the “directly pre-Golden Order period”.
Don’t get me wrong: Siluria’s Tree depicts an undeniable reality, which is the Crucible was a “sprouting stump” at the age of Godfrey. But is it really just that? There are some clues that point out to a different reality.
First of all: the Elden Stars is an Erdtree Incantation, and when used it shows a Crucible/Prime Erdtree sigil. According to its description, “this legendary incantation is the most ancient of those that derive from the Erdtree”, which includes all the Aspects of the Crucible. As this incantation is explicitly associated with the arrival of the Elden Beast, it means the Crucible sigil is one of the most primordial magic symbols to ever be created. Again, this is coherent on what we’ve discovered so far: the “previous tree” and the Erdtree are de facto the same being, and they all draws from the same source of power from their incantations - which is, the Elden Ring.
Second of all: the Crucible is described as “primordial”. This doesn’t just refer to the “primordial form of the Erdtree”, as the Crucible Feather Talisman is addresses in its description as “a vestige of the crucible of primordial life”. The Crucible is explicitly tied to life in its first stages, and indeed its various incantations allows the caster to manifest ancient traits, like the ones of Ancient Dragons.
Third of all: the Crucible sigil doesn’t depict a simple system of roots. On the upper part, you can clearly see leaves and branches. This could only mean one thing: the Crucible was, at some point, conceived as a full-grown tree too.
So, how do we harmonize all this information with the previous reconstruction? I think the most plausible solution is the following: the Crucible isn’t just defined as the transitory state between the “previous tree” and the Erdtree, but it’s an umbrella term that describes every state of the “Elden Ring tree” that predate the Erdtree itself.
As we’ve established before, the previous tree is, de facto, genetically the same tree as the Erdtree. Then it does make sense that the Crucible, “the Erdtree in its primordial form”, would encompass this entity too.
To be completely clear, this doesn’t mean previous cultures didn’t name the particular stage of the tree they were worshipping in a specific way. Maybe the Ancient Dynasty really called their sacred plant “Greattree”, or something else entirely. But, during the Golden Order, I deeply believe such difference was not present: there was the “Golden Tree” [how the Erdtree is called in JPN], and there was “all of those things before”, aka the Crucible.
This also helps to explain better a couple of other things. According to the Gilded Greatshield description - and you can also see this casting a Crucible incantation - the Crucible was tinged in red:
“The red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree. The color of homeward yearning.”
And what’s the color of the Root Resin the localized text claims to be of the Greattree? Red!
There is also the case of the Tree-And-Beast Surcoat which was brought in the comment section - which depicts a “previous tree” type of iconography while the description claims to be of the Erdtree. While this could be just an artistic license of the tailor to fit the image in a narrow tapestry, I’d like to point out the description is also very specific in calling the tree a “distant Erdtree”. And if, for the Golden Order, the Crucible was everything that came before the Erdtree, the discrepancy is actually subtlety referenced by the game text.
I think this is a fair reconstruction that covers some loose ends that weren’t addressed previously, but if the Crucible can be conceived as a full-grown tree too, there’s a new question to answer: what marked the transition between the Crucible and the Erdtree?
I believe the only real difference we can draw between the two, is that the Erdtree lost the red tinged which characterized the Crucible. How could this have happened? Well, we actually have example of the Erdtree changing in color: adding a new Rune to the Elden Ring, and modifying the current order, makes the Erdtree shift in shade as you can see in the Age Of The Duskborn, Age Of Order and Blessing Of Despair Endings.
So, could’ve the Crucible lost its red tinge as a result of a modification of the Elden Ring? I really think it’s likely: Marika did twist the previous order banishing the Rune of Death. And, as we discover in Maliketh boss-fight, Destined Death is red - the same color that was lost in the transition between the Crucible and the Erdtree [the “Golden Tree”, which is to say, the tree of the Golden Order].
Glad to have this comment brought forward! I think it’s a very useful one and shifts the conversation towards what’s most interesting.
I do think that there’s an interesting question, though, which is ‘were there Misbegotten/Crucible chimera in the time of the Dynasty?’ - it’s possible the resprouting era was more ‘chaotic’ in that respect than previous canopy eras, and chimera arose then.
@@WanderedIn Hi! Very interesting question indeed. I guess it's theoretically possible Crucible chimeras were present since the time of the Dynasty [not differently than Omens being born during the Golden Order] - as the core source this power remained the same through all the course of history. But if that was the case, they were considerably less present than in Godfrey's time, for sure!
So, I think you have a point: cutting down the old tree could've made the old "aspects of the Crucible" emerge from its marrow, making the world during the resprouting era much more chaotic in nature. Maybe something similar happened back in Farum Azula too, when the tree sprouted for the first time and wasn't full grown yet [we don't have tree depictions in FA, only a sprouting-plant effigy] - explaining the large presence of Ancient Dragons and Beasts at the time.
There's also the fact Misbegotten are called "Radagon's chimeras" in the game files, but I guess this is another topic entirely.
@@baltoy7460 I agree that ‘Radagon chimeras’ is baffling, and I tend to take that as a change in development rather than hidden red-hair secrets.
I do want to caution that I think it’s important not to mix ‘omen’ and ‘misbegotten’ together in these questions. The game defines them differently, and they show very different aspects - Omen have wraith-calling curses, which misbegotten never do, and the wings, scales, and teeth of the misbegotten are distinct from the sharp, asymmetrical horns of the Omen. What that means is unclear, but it’s an important and consistent distinction in the visual design and the text of the game.
As to objections to the current timeline, absolutely. TA claims there was a "Greattree Order" before the Age of the Erdtree. This entire Narrative revolves around Marika "overthrowing" this previous order in favor of the Age of the Erdtree. Problem is, we already know of her betrayal of the GW and GO through the Tarnished Plot. You've done nothing to make your double-double-cross theory make sense. We just do not know enough details about the Numen or the arrival of the GW to make bold sweeping claims like this.
"Siluria’s Tree depicts an undeniable reality, which is the Crucible was a “sprouting stump” at the age of Godfrey." - How so? I don't see anything from the game to support this claim whatsoever. It's called a tree but the sprouts on it are very clearly horns. In fact, the "Age of Godfrey" would have directly coincided with the "Age of the Erdtree" because he literally took the name Godfrey upon being made a lord by Marika/the Erdtree/GW.
"Distant Erdtree" pretty obviously refers to the distance from Stormveil to the Erdtree. When your theory has to assume that the in-game item descriptions are purposefully incorrect or misleading, its very hard to entertain. *The Erdtree Surcoat also calls this exact same depiction of a tree the "Erdtree"*
Furthermore, the Crucible Sigil depicting leaves and branches does not mean it was "conceived as a full-grown tree". We are directly told the Crucible Knights served Godfrey, who we know was only referred to as Godfrey during the age of the Erdtree, after he became Lord. All of the Crucible Incantations use this sigil, and all of them are techniques used by the Crucible Knights. Now you're claiming that the abundant, thicker Erdtree depicted in the Erdtree Incantation/crucible sigil is both Older, AND newer than the skinnier tree you claim depicts the "greatree order" or whatever you're calling it these days? This theory only gets weaker by the minute.
The sigil does not appear when non-humans use these abilities. This leads me to believe that the incantation/sorcery versions that we can use in game are a derivative of the original magic, something that probably could've been developed much later than the stars they rode in on. It is said to be "the most ancient of those that derive from the erdtree" not that the derivation ITSELF was so ancient.
This pretty clearly signals that the Crucible and Erdtree were in harmony at this time, and TA has not really presented any evidence to support the claim that the Crucible was ever central to its own Order. Or that it ever had any agency besides birthing new chaotic forms of life. And you've done nothing to identify when or why the roots were cut, so you can't really use that to support your "there was a previous crucible tree that got cut down" theory. For all we know, the cutting could have happened post-shattering, when Deathroot was first spreading through its roots.
This is a fabulous write-up! Getting right to the end question, I feel that the Rune of Death might not be the source of the Crucible's red-gold. The Gloam-Eyed Queen appears to be the first ever owner of the Rune of Death, and since the Golden Order wasn't even established until Maliketh defeated the GEQ, that means Marika couldn't have plucked the rune out of the Elden Ring to establish her order. Perhaps the rune was only removed from Marika's spoils of war after the GEQ was vanquished. As such, this could mean that either the GEQ took a rune from the Elden Ring yet neglected to take the entire thing, or the GEQ's rune wasn't actually ever part of the Elden Ring.
Looking at the Rune of Death itself, the rune is visually so unlike the rest of the Elden Ring that it may have been something of a predecessor to the mending runes. Farum Azula's depiction of the Elden Ring doesn't seem to have any major area where a rune with an upside down arc could exist either, and Farum Azula was no stranger to death sorceries. The Twinbird, mother of the Deathbirds, who inflict Deathblight with their screams, is depicted in large murals throughout the flying city, and there are smaller murals of wormfaces as well. This also raises the question of why Ghostflame would have been used if the Rune of Death existed in the past, let alone as part of the Elden Ring.
The Rune of Death also seems to spread out rather than being in the player's possession like the rest, so it doesn't get added to the Elden Ring like the other Great Runes presumably do in "mend the Elden Ring" endings. Additionally, if the Rune of Death somehow automatically gets added back to the Elden Ring upon Maliketh's defeat, then why is a red-gold tint lacking from the Erdtree as its interior starts to glow in "mend the Elden Ring" endings? I can see why the exterior of the tree wouldn't have such a color in the Age of Fracture ending, as the tree has only just survived a devastating event, but the interior seems the same as it did even when Marika first shattered the Elden Ring.
I've heard that, in ancient times, the word "gold" was actually used to describe reddish-gold colors, as means of removing impurities from gold were either too difficult or otherwise unknown for certain cultures. As such, the primitive Erdtree may have had a "primitive" gold, perhaps because the tree was a juvenile plant. The Minor Erdtree Church, where Melina recounts how Marika ordered the creation of Golden Order Fundamentalism, seems to have three minor Erdtrees with a deeper gold color, perhaps close to orange or otherwise not too far removed from a reddish-gold. Of course, this then leaves one to wonder why the taller minor Erdtrees are brown with radiant golden leaves. Perhaps the trees alternate the gold in phases, first growing new sections and then empowering them with gold.
I really like this discussion about the Erdtree's full history! I agree that the Erdtree and the "greattree" (and the Crucible) are likely the same tree. My belief is that the tree either just matured or, owing to the mystical elements in the setting, underwent evolution as it aged, serving as an overall reflection of nature over the course of generations. It's possible that the early Erdtree suffered a major injury and had to regrow, perhaps akin to a Frenzied Flame ending but where the tree and world's destruction were averted just in time. If so, I wonder when this would have occurred, as such a devastating wound doesn't seem to be mentioned in the history of the Lands Between, be it through dialogue or item descriptions.
As a trained geologist and ancient civ nerd as well as fromsoft fanboy, your videos contain that oh so sweet blend of science, culture, and gaming that is just what the doctor ordered for elden ring lore. Love the vids, keep em up!
I do think there is one bit of writing to pore over - the Golden Seed description, which describes how, when the Elden Ring was shattered, the Erdtree germinated - as life itself seemed to ‘cry out.’
We also see the Crucible/Primordial Erdtree described as ‘similar to life itself.’
So we can say that, at least arboreally, the Shattering was a unique event which disrupted the cycle of growth and regrowth, which caused what had never been seen before (except perhaps in the Haligtree - but that could easily be a cutting rather than a seed).
This germination detail actually neatly solves an issue I’ve had, making the Golden Seed description fit with other processes in motion. Thanks!
Excellent point!
I think you have interpreted it in a peculiar way relative to life cycles and I must come in between your thinking, if I may. You say "disrupted", yet the shattering of the Ring (and the Shattering as war?) made the Erdtree produce seeds. Yet, we know what precedes seeds in the overwhelming majority of plants: fruit, and before them, flowers. Here's the part I find gripping though, the fact that the only directly positive "growth" trait seen attributed to the Erdtree comes from Gowry, and I personally find it very perplexing:
"[The rotting sickness that afflicts Millicent has no cure.] When the Erdtree flourished, even the demigods could not stave off its effects, despite their nigh godhood."
"Flourish" is used in English to denote not only growth, but an especially "good" or vigorous kind of growth that happens in especially proper environments and/or circumstances. Well, that's rather peculiar, is it not? That the Erdtree would "grow" as it met the cataclysm of the Ring shattering? However, if we take the root of the word, and how it's used in other languages sharing it, to "flourish" is to "bloom", to produce flowers. Flowers which, all things naturally following, eventually produce (fertile) seeds. Suddenly this appears quite striking: did the Erdtree bloom? What would that even mean for a tree of its size? Why would this "flourishing" be tied to the spread or even origin of Rot in Malenia? How many other "effects" implacable to the demigods were there? Were the effects arisen from pollen, not unlike the varied effects produced by Miranda flowers on contact with it? It raises many questions.
One thing more. The mention of Old Tjikko here, a spruce tree, plunges this into further complexity. Spruce treea are not flowering plants, but conifers like pine trees, and thus "flourish" applied to them would never apply to blooming, only typical growth. The interesting part? They still produce pollen, vast quantities of it, to drift in the wind. Some of this pollen is well known to produce allergies. Though at this point I'm surely stretching myself quite a lot in a terrible amount of assumptions and guesses...
@@kimlee6643 but Gowry is not talking about the Shattering or its era - he’s talking about the Age of Plenty. “Even at the height of their power’ says Gowry, “the demigods could not cure the Scarlet Rot.”
Your wider analysis is undermined by this. Further, the statement that the Erdtree only put off seeds in the Shattering is explicitly taken from the Golden Seed item description, and backed up by the Crimson Seed Talisman, which states that Erdtree seeds were not believed to exist, as the Erdtree was once eternal and therefore did not need to germinate.
@@WanderedIn I find it peculiar how it seems hard to pin down some of the dialogue for Gowry, for whatever reason, and so I have some trouble contextualizing things he states relative to what comes before or right after. Nevertheless you quote is familiar. This, however, does little to help decipher what Gowry meant with "flourished" or why that would have unwanted "effects", irrespective of the speculation I then added. Furthermore, why does something eternal "flourish" in any way? But that's mostly rhetorical, since I'm just repeating myself through different words at this point.
An alternative approach would be to expand what is meant with "demigods". If Gowry is really old, which he seems to be, he might have meant any demigods outside of the purview of the Erdtree (from our more recent Erdtree-centric perspective), which would "flourish" under typical growth but also in conquest and submission as characterizes Godfrey's campaign. "Everything was in opposition" to it, as we know, and this presumably included demigods. This is still wholly independent of Rot, so, I dunno.
As for your initial subject, that the shattering of the Ring was a unique event that disrupted a cyclical growth/regrowth pattern by introducing a possible form of reproduction, I don't have much to add. I do see the notion of perfection including being "beyond" reproduction, a process necessarily entailing the concepts of death, survival and succession, which does make sense and is supported by what those under the Erdtree's rule believed in. I think this is what you mean, despite your use of the word "germination", which is improperly applied here, since only seeds germinate, but that's just a semantic technicality, since I believe I understand your reasoning thus: the Erdtree suffered an extreme shock and this sent it into "emergency mode", which includes producing offspring and shooting them in every direction.
Maybe something to add here, there are many trees (mostly needle trees I believe, but I'm not an arbologist ^^) rely on forest fires to proliferate...
This has to be the only CZcams channel that i go out of my way to watch as soon as the première releases.
Agreed
Definitely a good one. You may also enjoy Hawkshaw’s videos, similar in nature with a different take
@@alanrockwell8160 love hawkshaw but definitely got notifications on for this channel 😇
The element of the lore in Elden Ring that always confused me the most was how the Erdtree was sometimes, but not always, conflated with this "great tree" idea. Trees have been pretty popular in fiction, from the world tree of Norse myth, to Tolkien's two trees of Valinor, and many other works besides. But it wasn't until this video that I really considered what a tree actually is, and how they can have a life cycle very different from our own. Or not different, but using a different scale, perhaps. Either way, I think I understand the Erdtree a lot better now.
Well said!
There is a book you may like called “the secret life of trees” hope you enjoy!
I think another interesting tree to think about is the gingko tree of Guanyin Chan Temple. It's 1,400 years old (the whole tree, not just the roots). In Autumn, it changes to a striking gold color and drops a carpet of golden leaves. As a species, the gingko is known as a "living fossil"; it's evolutionary roots beginning before the dinosaurs. The tree is said to withstand aging by continuously producing molecules protecting against cell damage well past the time that modern trees begin to slow down. Gingko is widely used in traditional medicine, and even modern studies have shown some evidence of protection against dementia. Further, the tree is referred to as the "maidenhair tree" due to the shape of its leaf (this name is actually a bit lewd; maidenhair refers to the pubic hair of a woman).
The temple itself is an old Buddhist temple in a portion of Myanmar associated with the birth of several schools of Buddhism. Admittedly, I don't know much about the history of the region, but given what I do know about the tumultuous development of the area, it has been locked in continuous power struggles with its neighbors and with its own denizens. Control of the land and of the temple has been changing hands for millennia, and yet the tree is older than it all.
Overall, I can see some strong connections to the lore of Elden Ring.
you got a nice brain , i like that you shared this
@@aristobrat4987 Thank you, I really appreciate the comment ☺
Interesting
The moment you maid the maidenhair connection I remembered how the most sacred place would be Marika's bed chamber, the place that she maid almost into ritualistic chamber
Amazing , the elden ring connection is really cool but just the fact this is real is amazing .
The song used in the beginning is really beautiful, this channel as a whole has a really fantastic atmosphere to them. You're doing well, I love stumbling on hidden gems like these.
Awesome! I’m in awe of the trees that spread their roots to re-emerge over and over. I think it’s a much more natural and emotionally satisfying worldview for ER than for Dark Souls’ perpetually dying world. This new land is perpetually renewing itself, re-emerging as a wholly different creation. Makes a great metaphor for the DS-> ER creation process as well.
The frenzied flame:
_We do a little tomfoolery_
@@radcut7404 Sometimes that’s good! Forest fires are the only way some trees like lodgepole pines can propagate, by popping the pine cones in heat and fertilizing the ground with ash. Fire helps the bark grow thick and keeps the brush clear. Melina was super pissed when we inherited the frenzied flame, but how else can you refresh a weed-choked forest but to burn it all and wait for the dormant buds to regrow?
@@TheLyricalCleric Very true! Although I don't think that's really what the Frenzied Flame had planned, it is a nice interpretation
@@TheLyricalCleric there's flame and there's _flame_ . When Melina uses herself as kindling to burn the erdtree, that is the kind of flame that would help the erdtree grow, but the Flame of Frenzy wants to melt it ALL away, all that divides and distinguishes. It is devourer of life and thought unending. In the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending, the Erdtree's canopy is completely gone and it's trunk is split open with the landscape and even stone burning. There is no regrowth from such a fire
I really doubt a studio would deliberately creates hard to find metaphor like that, but that’s so beautiful, I WANT it to be true goddamnit
Best Elden ring videos. Honestly I wouldn't even call them purely lore videos because the content you make is so cross cutting, they use elements of science, culture and history in a unique way I have not seen in any other channel.
I think at 6:00 you are underestimating the size of the Erdtree. If you stand e.g. at Seethewater River grace and look roughly south parallel to the Erdtree circumference, it is obvious that the edge of the the Erdtree is pretty much directly above you at this point. So it's upper half at least spans over entirety of Altus, 1/3 of Liurnia (roughly above Church of Vows grace), and probably at least 2/3 of the mountaintops (the tree is not really visible there).
Quote from Google, "most tree roots occupy an area two to four times the diameter of the crown" - but that's not the largest record. So even if it's a single tree, it still makes perfect sense that if it's crown is 1/4 of the world map, then it's roots would be the entirety of the world map :)
Even without the younger trunk having to regrow on top of old roots - in a normal tree the top part will still be immensely smaller than the underground part.
Ok, you figured out what others couldnt. The theory that the Erdtree was a mushroom parasite on top of the greattree is completed destroyed in my mind by your explaination of how the statues show the crucible transition to the Erdtree. I love it.
The rot is the ship, the broken planks, the rotted mast, the wood touched by Theseus himself. The Lands Between are so amazingly interesting.
This is by far the most interesting Elden Ring content on the internet. This has me wondering if there is still more to be uncovered from previous FromSoft games, because I don’t think there are many other people making these kinds of connections. Thanks for another great video.
I'm astounded by all you've uncovered! Have you looked into the plant grafting process? I suspect it comes into play somewhere in here. The terminology is particularly suggestive: a small, sapling-like "scion" from one kind of tree is grafted onto rootstock of another. If something like this was going on, it could help explain the differences between the coniferous Great Tree and the deciduous Erdtree. Perhaps the Haligtree, too, if Miquella had just been growing a sapling on its own roots.
the Halig Tree is Miquella's and Marika's attempt to seperate from the current order? 😜
But I like to believe that Marika is (or was) proud of her twins, they are by far the youngest of the demigods but still they achieved to most.
Very good video!
Godrick: "What about me?"
Marika: "What about you?"
A fun thing I noticed: the Haligtree can’t have been grown from a seed, because there were no Erdtree seeds before the Shattering. So it must be either a cutting from the Erdtree or a mundane tree, in either case watered with Miquella’s blood… but even if it’s a different tree, it’s still clonal. Because Miquella is the offspring of Marika and Radagon, so the offspring of just Marika twice - he’s a clonal offshoot.
An interesting detail to note is that Elden Stars and the Crucible incantations use the same sigil, and the Crucible is explicitly stated to be an earlier state of the Erdtree, providing a line of connection between the original tree, whatever it was, and the Erdtree as it is in the present.
I don't understand fascination with Great-tree, when symbol you refer to it, the thin and slender tree, is used in Tree-and-Beast Surcoat, and described as:
"The surcoat depicts the distant Erdtree and the beast regent, an emblem of the golden lineage. Both are symbols of glory now past."
The slender tree is decidedly an Erdtree symbol.
its also on Leyndell soldiers so its not only godrick
I think it’s useful to note that while present day soldiers may use the thin tree symbol, there are no ancient representations of the ‘thick’ tree. So the three varieties of relief depiction matters.
The current social order certainly uses the old tree depiction as part of their recent livery; they consider it to be the Erdtree. And as the video says, this isn’t strictly incorrect even if you assume the Erdtree trunk is the second to grow.
Adding something toward the tree depiction discussion (that was post-edited out of the script for streamlining).
There are tons of tree depictions in many different styles and sizes on clothes, tapestries, and banners. In fact, there are Erdtree banner versions that are wide and narrow, just like the conventions in heraldry IRL. However, the tree relief depictions, those set-in-stone, are never mixed in distinct layers, and are not dependent on width of walls or other such practicalities. The round plush tree is only on Erdtree stratum buildings, while the tall pointy tree is only on Saints stratum buildings. Even the wide colosseums only have tall pointy trees. Stone reliefs on buildings never mix across times and themes, unlike the widely varied tapestry and cloth depictions. In fact, we've looked into tree tapestries at... excruciating length previously (Erdtree Births episode). Thank you all for the kind words and interesting thoughts!
At what point do all the Souls Lore people get together and create a standards and practices committee in order to unify terminology?
Exactly what I was wondering about. Those banners in the Leyndell prayer room depict a narrow tree, yet they are undoubtedly products of the current age. I guess it's impossible to draw the full girth of the Erdtree on such narrow banners after all.
Just admit you made a mistake and move on, man. The Erdtree Surcoat directly calls it the Erdtree. Your greattree theory was based on a mistranslation.
@@slipdog7832 slipdog - how do you explain the idea that the war with the giants is the ‘birth of the Erdtree’ if there are older tree worship depictions?
@@slipdog7832 You again? Weren't you whining about this in another comment chain here? At least he can back up and defend his theory without just restating the same comment across comment chains. It's ironic, you're asking him to do what you aren't able to, examine new information and admit you were wrong.
Are we finally gonna talk about the Claymen next episode? I was immediately intrigued by them on first sight because of how strange they looked, and their unique magic. The only other thing that uses magic involving bubbles are the oracles… Wait.
I have to wonder if they're precursors to the Silver Tears and Albinaurics, formed of clay because they predate metallurgy. The Oracle Envoys also seem to be Albinaurics.
@@UltraStarWarsFanatic I do like that idea, but I disagree on the Oracle Envoys being Albanaurics, and neither are the Claymen.
The Claymen are described by their ashes as "warped remains of priests who searched for revelation in service of the ancient dynasty". They were once human creatures, not artifical constructs, and that they "served as priests in the ancient dynasty" means they pre--date the Nox, Silver Tears, and the Albanaurics. Their harpoon says that they "infest dynastic remains", meaning that though they are found in the ancient dynasty ruins and perhaps originate there, their presence is not desirable.
The Oracle Envoys are much more enigmatic, for very little of them is known. They are "bloodless creatures", referring to the strips of white flesh they drop. Other than that, there is very little told about them, save that when people wear their spherical Envoy Crowns, they "claim to have heard a faint whimpering from inside".
Both the Claymen and Oracle Envoys use bubbles, but for completely separate reasons. Both Oracle Bubble sorceries the Claymen use say that the Claymen "search for lost oracles within their bubbles", sifting through the dregs of the world like the Murkmen from Dark Souls III, perpetually stuck in a long-dead, rotting past. The bubbles the Oracle Envoys use, in contrast, only come from their horns, which they blow to "herald the arrival of a new god, or age", according to their ashes. While the Claymen are stuck in the past, the Oracle Envoys look to the future, a new age and a new god. Their natures are opposed to each other.
@@wyrmboi6172 In the first place, the natural-artificial dichotomy is almost certainly a falsehood. That is to say, all the human beings in the Lands Between are artificial.
Your content is keeping my love for Elden Ring alive, amazing work as always
Only watched the opening and I love it already. Magnificient choice of music, as always.
I adore the music you open these videos with. Thank you so much for incorporating such grandiose sound into this project. The effect of a strong and haunting opening like this video's is absolutely flooring.
Ymir by danheim.
He makes a lot of really good nordic music.
Ever since you showed a stump like at 7:03 in the Godfrey and the Truth of the Crucible video, I haven't been able to shake an idea that I had, that the entirety of the Lands Between was once a great tree, and the Elden Stars meteor had cut it down to a stump, and the world grew out from the stump.
The picture at 7:57 seem to show: The haligtree sprouting from Miquellas cocoon, the erdtree sprouting from the elden ring, the lower part has weathered or been taken down, could possibly show the shadow erdtree (the great tree).
I'm loving these series, funny how I keep pausing and repeating parts to check for possible biases, to check item descriptions and NPCs dialogue, to check with my notes and theories, or maybe other possible explanations that would fit aswell so they would be "as possible" as anything that you propose (and to be honest, mainly because I'm non native and I need to make sure I understood everything) but always end up concluding you are right and letting you cook is always best.
YES!! YOU GET IT!! This is exactly my take on the Greattree lore as well! That's why we find a grove of Quaking Aspens around so many of the Minor Erdtrees! It's an excellent visual clue!
Good spot, when it comes to the roots of the tree comprising the lands between, and the depiction of the elden ring in Farum Azula, always wondered if that was supposed to be representative of the crucible or something but roots makes way more sense
It's sort of the same thing, except when we talk the Era of the Crucible it's a particular era, but the same thing might have been happening many times, many trees, grown from the primordial root system.
@@Xandros999 at that point life was pretty much all from the same blend as shown with the omens were considered blessed
Hands down the best Elden ring lore channel on youtube, you have such a unique take on the lore, keep it up.
That opening song and the story of Old Tjikko was just incredible, it made me look into it myself
Another great episode, I agree on the Greattree is a deliberate choice of word interpreted by the Frognation, although I personally not a fan of calling world tree in a generic name as "Greattree". If I'm the interpreter, I will just go "great roots" for"大樹根" instead of "roots of the Greattree", to avoid the tricky naming situation.
Speaking of the great root system tho, since this video is so awesome, I would like to briefly share some my wild takes too.
1.Notice the strange looking mountain opposites to the arena of the Full-Grown Fallingstar Beast, that mountain almost look like a dead tree trunk of a world tree, reminiscent to the destroyed Erdtree in the frenzied flame ending. Considering how close relationship Mt.Gelmir has to gloam-eyed queen (obsidian, abductor virgin designs, godskin relations with man-serpent and the Great Serpent, Crepus's vial, so on so forth) , I always have this speculation that Mt.Gelmir used to not only house the Great Serpent, the usurper of gods, but also house a world tree of death, in the age when death is part of the order. This is pretty headcanon but it will be very interesting if we get the chance to visit the underground section of Mt.Gelmir in future dlcs, I think that's where we might uncover the mysterious gloam-eyed queen, black knives and the sealed outer god of the Scarlet Rot.
2.Another observation is that the great root system drive far and wide through the earth of the Lands Between as your video has shown. Interestingly, the ruins of the blackstone civilization also hold the entire Lands Between together, suggest that the Lands Between as a whole, was once one great holy land. Later suffered catastrophic events such as constant meteorites bombardment, volcanic eruptions (judging by the columnar rocks structures all over TLB) and tsunami that sunk a portion of the landmass (judging by the submerged ruins and pillars into the ocean at lower altitude areas). Makes me have this thought that the Lands Between once as a whole, was a gigantic tree trunk of a true world tree.
The second tree idea could be possible lore-wise, as Tolkein’s Silmarillion tells of the two trees of Valinor and could possible have inspired GRRM. Fingers crossed the DLC will drop some crazy new knowledge for us
You have the most lovely music in your videos
Stellar work as always. Can hardly wait for the next episode. Thanks again!!
I've binged your other vids and loved your insight in all of them. The opening on this one, though, is on another level.
Amazing video. I have been loving the current blitz of videos coming out. Keep it up, you are making incredible stuff
Hell yea. Way to use wardruna in the intro. Hands down one of my favorite groups. Saw them live a couple of years ago
good video, I love that you chosen Ymir for start and end the video, was a nice touch
Today is my birthday and you post a video about one of the most interesting topics…
And with Wardruna/Danheim music.
Well, thank you so much, I love you!
Happy birthday!
I finally thought about this. People talk about misstranslations in this game but do we ever take into account the vast majority of the deep lore is written by GRRM in English. So English ER is twice translated and I wouldn't be surprised if miyazaki did what he did from childhood and read it in English filling in where he needed.
Another amazing video! Thank you for your impressive work
Im amazed that you dont have more subs. This channel is such a wonderful celebration of the storytelling of Elden Ring and the power (and more importantly, the methods! Ive learned so much just in passing) of archaeological science.
DAMN! Best Elden Ring videos out there, and this channel is just getting started! Already being sourced by other, much larger Elden Ring focused channels, too! Excited for more content!!!!
New TA videooo les goo keep it up man i love how many videos your releasing recently
Your work is revelatory and exceptional - as always.
Thanks! Good to see you here.
Very well thought out. I learn not just of elden ring, but of our world too from your videos. Thank you
You are hands down the best lore scholar on here. Thank you for your unique insights and for teaching us new things about science and history :)
What in Marika's name..! I'm mesmerized by the quality of this video. Keep the good work!
Amazing job as always
The single best elden ring youtube channel
Heck yeah, can't wait to watch this when I get off work
10:48 wow this looks like the little arms on Rykard!
Absolutely love your channel, best lore videos out there! Thank you for all the effort. Slightly off-topic from elden ring, but I would be incredibly excited to see similarly well crafted archaeology/lore videos about the Malazan book of the fallen. The author being an actual archaeologist, that world is full of similarly fascinating layers of past, waiting to be uncovered!
Never read them, but thanks for the recommendation!
@@tarnishedarchaeologist overused analogy, but it’s often compared to the “soulsborne” experience as it’s similarly dense and rewarding, but requires an active reader that’s determined to push through a world that doesn’t care about you.
Your choice of music is very good.
Every video is enlightening.
I've sadly only recently run across your channel and the archaeological analysis is so up my alley as a bit of a history nerd.
After seeing the better description of the Crucible from your videos (I had previously thought it was just the Giant's Forge lol), I'm genuinely curious if the "Crucible" is literally the Lands Between... Meaning there is the crater in the middle of the map with all these Erdtrees sprouting up around it... What if, as you suggested, a meteor hit the middle of the map... But what it hit was actually the original "tree", also known as The One Great. Such a massive tree being destroyed by a celestial event would be world shattering for inhabitants, which could justify building the Celestial Towers to commentate this massive change?
Did you already discuss the downfall of the greattree? If so I missed it. I’m very curious as to who ended the great tree. The dynast, the dragons, the great tree, and the time of the crucible is all still very hard for me to place. Also curious if you believe Farum Azula was once a part of the divine towers construction? I’m sure you don’t have time for my questions but keep it up. I love your content 😊
The Danhiem really fits
One thing to note about the haligtree is that there are loads of smaller dead trees scattered throughout the Consecrated Snowfield. So it might be that Miquella didn't originally intend to create his tree out on the ocean, but was forced to do so after the ones he tried to plant on the main landmass failed, perhaps because they were in conflict with the great tree roots. Even the name 'concecrated' might imply he purified that ground in preparation for these failed attempts.
great video as always. today I randomly saw that Rome has been called "The Eternal City" for thousands of years (after the poet Tibullus gave it this nickname). I also found it interesting that the myth of Rome's founding is based on two siblings suckling from a she-wolf.
By FAR the best elden ring lore channel! THANK YOU!!!❤
Great vid, very interesting concept! Though one thing, and it's more a technical issue, the outro song vocals clashed a bit with your outro. Were a bit distracting, my ear couldn't decide which one to focus on.
I am glad to find such a channel.
Amazing. Danheim are great music choices.
I live for these videos! so well made
Love the videos. Have you ever played patholic or the remake pathologic 2. Just based on how you make connections to history in your videos, i think you'd enjoy it
The end of the video implies that we are almost at the end of the journey. Fascinating!
The Pando referenze and the ship of theseus mental experiment drove me Crazy with the thirst for knowledge
Another great video TA, I learned about plant cloning some time ago but in the context of... different plants. I've always kinda wondered if the concept of grafting may have something to do with that or if the Haligtree was maybe a branch that was cut and replanted, otherwise it seems like Miquella should have been there for a long time, longer than just The Shattering. It's pretty clear that his tree is still young but it's not as young as the little golden saplings that we pick Golden Seeds up at. I could just be reaching here and I would love to be proven wrong but it seems like Miquella had to have some kind of boost, possibly from his Fingers or some other Outer God.
Root grafting is often done to get trees that take a long time to mature grow faster. You literally just cut down a tree and then graft a sapling onto the stump, and it cuts the time it takes to grow significantly. The Sacramental Buds we find look like Haligtree saplings as well, so Miquella could've been cultivating them for some time to find a technique to grow it quickly. Then again, time is very weird in the Lands Between, so who knows.
The endless conversations that continue to sprout from the roots of FromSoftware continue to occur. So much to learn. So much to imagine.
I recognize that opening song. And I love it. Good choice.
This is the first time i'm watching your content and is pretty cool, thanks for sharing, i'm going to check more of your videos, +1 sub
great job.
Incredible work, so enjoy your channel! 🖤
First, I'd like to say that this was an excellent video. I especially liked the comparison of the greattree symbols to Old Tjikko.
Second, in a previous video you said that the older greattree symbols are only found in the divine bridges, stormveil, and the fortified manner, but there's also another, MASSIVE greattree symbol behind the grand lift of dectus. I'm not sure what that implies or if means anything at all, but it'd be nice to have your opinion on it, even if it's just 'the saint and tree empire built the grand lifts'.
Yes, this has perplexed us as well. It appears to our eye that the GT relief is on the underlying, original part of the lift, and then there's all of the Erdtree stuff added later (Marika Promachos statues, Erdree Sentinel Statues, etc.)
But honestly not quite sure yet, we need to analyze carefully. Good eye though!
Beautiful introduction 💛
Thanks for making this, the “mistranslation” of root resin has prematurely ended so many interesting conclusions and interpretations in this game. I’m glad a lore youtuber finally stood up to the mistranslation edge lords. I really like the idea that the Erdtree was a v graft onto the great tree roots / crucible, because it visually looks like it was, but I cannot have that discussion anywhere because it is instantly shot down by “mistranslation, there is no great tree”. I hope your video will make people more open minded.
"I can't make stuff up without being told that the made up stuff is made up"
literally 1984
Gealdyr music here is awesome addition!
The great tree relief reminds me more of a norfolk pine because of the way the branches are but, I think the comparison to old tjiko is fair still.
Really enjoying all ur vids dude keep it up
Hey man keep the awesome work up. There will always be some toxic fromsoft people but just know most of us love your videos and will support you. Do you have a patron?? this is truly amazing work.
Thanks!
ive been waiting for this
just the opening solidified this video creation.
It is absolutely criminal this channel has such a small subscriber count
give this man all the subs.
My favorite part about the Haligtree is that it’s bifurcated, just like the twins themselves.
Bifurcated and needed support
@@mmyr8ado.360 Also, from a distance it looks like a river birch. its super pretty
Goldmask taking notes from these videos.
I would like to note that there are minor erdtrees near most of those catacombs which might be the roots seen in their main chamber
And there is a catacomb in the consecrated snowfield and a minortree along with it
As pointed by the pinned comment, it is likely that the Elden Ring was a bright golden red when it first manifested. Then the Great Tree grew from it like a seed, but was cut and the Crucible formed. These two were also tinged red and had red resin. But when Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, which was the seed or DNA of the Great Tree/Crucible, it lost its red hue and became pale brilliant gold. Since the root system of the old Great Tree are still around, then the Minor Erdtrees are actually new sprouts and growths of the Great Tree's roots, but exhibit golden leaves because they now draw power from the current form of the Elden Ring. They are really just new Great Trees, but the Golden Order calls them 'minor' because Marika altered the Elden Ring in the 1st place.
Danheim! Good music taste.
Shout out to Lake Wanaka, New Zealand in the opening
Indeed! True beauty
This is one of the maybe 2?channels that I actually hit the notification bell on. Side note, guess who also hasn't told me to hit the notification bell?
One of the benefits of this being a hobby instead of a job.
a life form that lived through out humanity's existence is so unfathomable, almost eldritch
Check out some potentially relevant artwork from the Elden Ring Official Artbook on this community post:
czcams.com/users/postUgkxrH9gC9atcJm8nKCgDInOSdA0lxa1_C5G
“Periodic ephemeral flourish” poetry my friend.
excellent
less than 10k subscribers? hahaha we are the elite few my brethren! the chosen ones.
OMG THE INTRO...
Ymir .... That intro almost brought a tear to mine eye. The Yggdrasill and the Great tree connection is an interesting thought.
I think that the great tree was the original god but when the greater will came it tried to replace the god or symbol of this land and thus destroyed the great tree and chose to become a new tree. I think this is the reason the erdtree is tilted , because its a meere copy.
Younger Dryas mention 👀👀
I immediately recognised the song
It's called Ymir and it's a masterpiece
I would like to know your view on the minor erd trees. If they were a result of the germination as aluded to in the golden seed description aren't they a new entity all together? Or do you think they merged with the root system underneath?
The text seems to imply they (the minor erdtrees) arose from the root system without germination. The golden seeds refers to the illusory trees as being products of germination.
@@tarnishedarchaeologist the Minor Erdtrees also seem to emerge near catacombs, and to have predated the Shattering. So I’m inclined to agree that the lesser Erdtrees are emerging from the roots. Which says interesting things about the Crucible-associated but not precisely Crucible-worshipping Ancestral Followers.
That intro was beautiful. What was the song?