We used this patt. webbing when I was an Army Cadet in the 70s. My Grandad a WW2 vet showed me what 4 years of war fighting taught him about packing the small pack. it was very difrent. You demo the text book way. Cut the towel in to quarters and keep 2 throw the rest away (too much weight) 1 part wash cloth 1 part to dry with. get rid of the holdall (too much weight) cap comforter in the trouser leg pocket ration tin in the blouse pocket. get rid of the knife and fork (too much weight) Lose the shaving soap (too much weigh) Spoon in the trouser pocket comb in pocket. wrap up the three part razor and some blades the soap, tooth brush and tooth paste in part of the towel. and together with socks fit the bundle into one of the mess tins. Rations in the other mess tin. Cardigan if carried and the other part of the towel and issue plimsolls in the pack with the ground sheet cape. you forgott that most soilders smoked at least 40 a day so ciggies and (a bottle if wine when in France) were often carried too.
Your grandad was 100% right, weight is everything! I too remember being burdened with this backpack as a cadet and hating it for how it seemed to burrow into the small of my back. I was delighted when our QM swapped my 37 pattern for 58.
Further reading: The 1937 Pattern fitting instructions with prescribed contents can be found here; www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/1937_manuals.html and for a take on what was actually carried in the field later in the war a photograph of the haversack contents belonging to Fusilier Tom Payne of 11 Platoon, 'B' Company, 6th Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers, part of a series taken of Fusilier Payne and his equipment in Normandy, 12 August 1944 can be seen here; tinyurl.com/fusilierpayne
The terms “water proofed “ and “metal work will not be polished but be allowed to get dull” in the text I am sure made many soldiers issued with this equipment smile at the time..... .
Of course the chap from 1944 also used his Entrenching tool carrier to also carry the messier bits of his kit, boot polish and brushes and most important a general clean up rag, many uses that has, both yourself, weapons, kit and something cleaner than the ground to sit on when needed..... like a Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy towel.
With the mess ( if you excuse the pun) cooking with your mess tins and eating out of them does even though you do your best to clean them, I have found having cloth bags or even news paper to keep your soiled tins away from your other kit is a good idea, as the soot gets everywhere if you have used open wood burning fires. I have cloth bags to order the contents so it is easy to pack and unpack also it keeps keep the content clean. So I have a Small Pack of variously sized cloth bags filled with like items, but there is order.
Soot, including that from burning hexamine type fuels, is relatively easy to remove by rubbing the tins on sand, earth, and sometimes even the vegetation you find around.
After cooking clean the tin. mud or sand can be used to scour away carbon deposits and a bit of the towel was used to clean the inside. extra bags added extra weight. nobody wants a heavy pack when fighting
Just a quick question to all and one I can't find the answer to. As I understand care of the feet was critical, therefore, along with the socks would the individual soldier not also carry the small tin of foot powder? Again just wondering as I've looked through all of these excellent video's and can't find it mentioned anywhere.
Fantastic! Thanks for bringing those items intended for the invasion of Japan. I have purchased each of those, do you know of further items that are easy enough to purchase?
I found this helpful thank you, just one question, I noticed you didn’t have the housewife kit. As I had been told soldiers used to carry it, I think even today’s army have. I maybe wrong..
Very good again, as usual. Now I need large pack info, and were both packs ever worn together at the same time? As in, haversack on belt, and large pack on back? Also, I have what appears to be a straw tick or mattress cover? Dated 1943, "" C" broad arrow khaki cotton drill material. would this be carried, or part of kit at base?
The pack and haversack were worn together, originally this was intended only for changing stations. The haversack has one-inch buckles on the upper sides so that it may be carried on the brace ends on the left hip. I suggest reading the fitting instructions linked in the pinned comment at the top to see how the set was worn in this manner, they also state the prescribed contents for the pack. It's interesting to note that the 1908 pack wasn't actually incorporated as part of the 1937 Pattern equipment until post-war.
Would you do a video on British Face camouflage in ww2 ? Can’t really find much about it at all ! Was modern style cam cream used ? Or just dirt and cocoa power etc ?
No, you very occasionally see mugs hanging from the straps but even that isn't really all that common, certainly not as common in actuality as it is with reenactors. Glad you're liking the recent uploads.
It's worth remembering that the small mess tin was to be used as a drinking vessel. Mugs were only used in canteens or billets. Also the individual soldier did not have a stove or "the makings" until late in the war so he couldn't drink as much tea as we fondly suppose. Water was all he had.
@@allenprior8573 true, i also imagine the cup could likely brake while in combat. Although from personal experience drinking anything from a messtin is annoying at best. But no tea on demand. God war is hell.
I thought they would have a small shoe care kit in there with boot polish saying that they have spare laces. I can always remember there being am emphasis on shoe care, I'd imagine it would be the same back then. Would that be in there or somewhere sperate.
No little about ww2 equipment but if this was their kit what was and how did they carry sleeping kit eg blankets or sleeping bags. Thank you for your videos really informative
Sleeping kit basically consited of grounsheet and greatcoat. The greatcoat was carried in the pack which by this time was usually carried in unit transport.
Have you noticed the embossing on the brass of one the wide straps? Mine has something like a little tent and an "N". I wonder if they all have the same markings.
Apologies for being rather late, did soldiers ever use straight razors like those in the great war. Great and extremely informative content by the way.
I have heard of squaddies using straight razors in the '60s and '70s because it was cool to do so at the time! In a Second World War context I can well imagine some older soldiers using straight razors though it has to be said I think most would have used a safety razor, far more convenient in the field.
Double edge disposable razor blades could be difficult to obtain with wartime shortages, rolls razors and straight edge razors were preferable in certain circumstances as these types can be sharped over and over again. Another consideration is the age of the soldier, a lot of older men who grew up with straight edge razors probably used straight edge razors in the army, with younger soldiers using the more modern double edge varieties. Of course the common issue type was a zinc alloy double edge but these seem commonly replaced with a higher quality razor civilian razor in original photos, likely brought from home.
@@nathansaunders2576 Very curiously, my barber, who is a Korean woman (this is in the U.S.) uses a sort of razor with a disposable blade (don't know if single or double edge) that is used like a straight razor. I must check on that next time I get my ears lowered.
Just to clarify the hussif was carried in the pack by most troops right? I've read of Parachutist/airlanding troops carrying them in the haversack though but can you confirm this?
I suggest it would be very, very rare for the mess tins to be carried nested. They would bang against each other. On a long march, the constant noise would be so annoying; let alone the risks posed on a night march or sneak attack. Likewise the KFS would be carried wrapped in some fabric, again to stop them rattling and causing unnecessary noise.
Puts mine to shame 😣 I've got a few extra bits in mine, housewife kit,gloves and balaclava for example. Need to think about thining it down then . Another excellent video RM
Many thanks! It really is a case of less is more, Fusilier Payne even dispenses with the cardigan in the original photos of his kit! I also think he's swapped the cap comforter for a balaclava.
Would the standard BEF in 1939 carry things like say the mirror or the button cleaners, foot powder or soap bar? Because the manual doesn't seem to mention it but they do exist I know that Also, would boot cleaning tools like brush and polish be carried in the pack? Because again, they don't mention it in the manuals for 1939
I have always had some doubts about British mess-tins and cutlery... were they really functional? I do not see myself having soup in them... if anything, I would choose the German kit! the American mess tins are also deplorable, cutlery is good though, and the canteen cup was the best piece, a really good item! nowadays I use small stainless steel bowls, because I do not like to eat in the aluminium German kit... modern US and British plastic canteens are ok, and with a stainless steel cup they are still a very interesting alternative (in relation to modern materials and designs). Very interesting descriptions, I love old webbing! leather and canvas are just soooo cool...
Those old rectangular mess tins are so functional they're still being issued. Yeah everyone moans about them and ditches them for a jetboil as soon as they are allowed but they work fine, and are more efficient for packing than something round. Better for protecting "stuff" inside when being carried too -- and a soldier is going to spend more time carrying stuff than heating/cooking/eating. The German design works okay for drinks, soups and stews but hard to fry bacon, egg and sausage in one.
@@RiflemanMoore ah sorry i must of missed that bit. Interesting even with all the technological advances in equipment the basics are still the same. All the best - Jim
It would vary somewhat based upon specific operations. The contents shown here are typical and are largely referenced from the kit of Fusilier Payne photographs of which are held in the IWM archives.
Not forgotten, dubbin, not polish, and a brush/rag for applying it were sometimes carried, but not in the haversack. The famous photos of Fusilier Payne's kit show that he stowed his in the entrenching tool carrier. As for foot powder, this would be carried in the pack.
@@RiflemanMoore I have a question we’re the shoe polish and rifle cleaning kit were required to be stored in the haversack, because it seems to me that they are not necessary on campaign
Two questions; what would the weight of the standard pack be? Also, did the troops carry much of anything in the way of personal items? Pictures, letters, socks, etc? If so, how and where would they pack them?
Basic weights can be seen in the 1937 Pattern fitting instructions here; www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/manuals/pdf/britp37.pdf Socks are included in the kit shown in the video. Items for letter writing and other personal effects would tend to be carried in the pockets.
@@RiflemanMoore thanks for the reply and the link to the PDF. Very interesting stuff. Have you ever loaded up a set with representative weights and carried it at all? I’d be interested to see how it compares in weight distribution to today’s loads. By personal items I meant more like extra socks Aunt Nettie knit and the fruitcake from Mum, letters from home, souvenirs, tobacco... Seems impractical to carry that kind of stuff in your pockets, especially letters. Anyway, thanks for the info, I really enjoy your videos!
The spare socks are carried in the haversack, one extra pair, as shown in the video. Why would it be impractical to carry letters in pockets? The battledress blouse has two chest pockets, one of which contains the paybook, an ideal place to carry letters too. Ideal for a tobacco wallet or pack of cigarettes and a lighter/matches as well, for easy access. As for experience of carrying the kit this might be of interest; czcams.com/video/agdo7tFvMe0/video.html
@@RiflemanMoore The spare socks was meant as an example of a personal or non-issued item a soldier might choose to carry in addition to what was on the packing list. I used to carry several spare sets of socks, underwear, undershirts, along with a book, civilian sweater, toque etc. I guess my point is that in my experience there’s the official packing list and then there’s what is actually carried, the difference being what each individual carried in addition to what was required. Maybe in those days they were 100% restricted to the packing list but it would seem to defy human nature to not have personal extras. You’ve gotten the load out from a Pam but what isn’t represented is the individual soldiers personal items. For what it’s worth I found that in the field anything in my pockets tended to get wet from either perspiration or precipitation which is why we used to waterproof our maps. I would suspect that putting a letter in my chest pocket would quickly ruin it, which is why I kept that kind of stuff in my rucksack which was lined with a garbage bag. It wasn’t clear from that video whether or not you had something representing the weight of ammunition.
Regarding an extra pair of civvy socks, if carried I imagine they would be added to the soft kit in the haversack, it's the logical place to carry them. I would stress the information in this video isn't just based on pamphlets, we are lucky enough to have photographs of one man's kit, taken in Normandy in 1944. The photographs are neatly grouped in this forum post for ease of reference, the contents of the entrenching tool carrier, haversack and pocket contents including personal effects, invasion money, paybook, improvised first aid kit etc. www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-field-gear/what-infantryman-carries-into-battle-680491/ The haversack contents are basically as prescribed but with a balaclava in place of the cap comforter and the addition of a nail brush. As with the first aid items in the photos linked above it was not unusual for men to use a gas wallet to keep items dry in their pockets. When you say "It wasn’t clear from that video whether or not you had something representing the weight of ammunition." Do you mean the video I linked? If so I did mention I had a full load of ammunition but that it was spent blanks, with no round in them. I thankfully now have some deactivated round which are closer to the weight of live ammunition, only lacking the powder.
The 1937 Pattern fitting instructions state that the single issued waterbottle is to be carried in the haversack though carrying it on the brace ends in its carrier was in fact the norm. I'm not aware of men being issued a second waterbottle, general issue was definitely one per man.
@@RiflemanMoore i read in an account i forget where, a second water bottle was issued to first wave assault troops on d day but obviously this was an exception to the normal rule. As you correctly point out general issue was one per man. Hope that helps.
@@RiflemanMoore i'll try to find it again if i get chance. it was one of those brief mentions that always sticks in your mind. i think it was particular to men issued with the assault jerkin but wouldn't swear to it.
In some specific circumstances blankets were carried but it wasn't common overall and you wouldn't fit one in the haversack, you would need full marching order to carry one effectively.
You see odd footage of a blanket being rolled, and wrapped around it with string to secure, but only moving within Entrainment, it was not part of Battle Order.
I misunderstood your question. The contents would essentially be the same if serving in an infantry role but not in RAF blue, basically as you see here!
They certainly carry a lot less than troops today. Surely they needed more than one pair of spare socks. Didnt they carry spare underwear? No sleeping bags either. Lack of warm kit. Was further supplies brought to them from platoon HQ or what?
Original dated examples show the opposite as far as I'm aware. The Mk VII groundsheet was introduced in 1917 and looking back as far as Great War dated original examples they show the brown rubberised finish.
The earliest dated tan example I've seen is 1940, though I've also seen examples made in the earlier brown rubberised fabric and dated 1941 where the fabric has been reversed during manufacture so the tan, non-rubberised inner surface forms the exterior, presumably to allow manufacturers to utilise existing stocks of fabric.
Bontent of small pack - as per 1939 dad? Knife Fork Spoon, Razor, Comb & lather Brush, Boot Brush , Tooth Brush, Button Stick and Button Brush. I assume that British servicemen in your world had no need for Boot Brushes?
So, we in the modern army are obsessive about water-proofing everything. All packs, valises, pouches etc are lined with plastic bags. Tomy mind,spare socks and sweater need to be kept dry. How was this achieved in the old days?
The soft kit is tucked against the back, generally speaking, and under the groundsheet which is waterproof and this is generally enough to keep the soft kit dry, at least through rain showers. In really wet weather the groundsheet or perhaps the gas cape could be worn as waterproofs over everything including equipment so soft kit would also be protected. That said the obsession with waterproofing is a relatively modern fixation so in answer to your question how was it achieved? It wasn't, not to the same degree, even in the tropics.
We used this patt. webbing when I was an Army Cadet in the 70s. My Grandad a WW2 vet showed me what 4 years of war fighting taught him about packing the small pack. it was very difrent.
You demo the text book way.
Cut the towel in to quarters and keep 2 throw the rest away (too much weight)
1 part wash cloth 1 part to dry with.
get rid of the holdall (too much weight)
cap comforter in the trouser leg pocket ration tin in the blouse pocket.
get rid of the knife and fork (too much weight)
Lose the shaving soap (too much weigh)
Spoon in the trouser pocket
comb in pocket.
wrap up the three part razor and some blades the soap, tooth brush and tooth paste in part of the towel. and together with socks fit the bundle into one of the mess tins.
Rations in the other mess tin.
Cardigan if carried and the other part of the towel and issue plimsolls in the pack with the ground sheet cape.
you forgott that most soilders smoked at least 40 a day so ciggies and (a bottle if wine when in France) were often carried too.
This is why I come to the comments section. Thumbs up
Your grandad was 100% right, weight is everything! I too remember being burdened with this backpack as a cadet and hating it for how it seemed to burrow into the small of my back. I was delighted when our QM swapped my 37 pattern for 58.
In looking at this I though the same thing. I’m ditching 75% of that stuff if I’m on foot😂
Thanks for the Gen, whenever I load my Small Pack I do wish it was called the “Slightly Larger Pack”, but it serves.... as per your advice.
It does indeed, though as you say space is at a premium.
Really enjoying the content!
I'm glad to hear it.
Love it excellent a d thorough description thanks!!✌️💚✊️🔥
Great review.
A much awaited video, thank you Mr Moore.
Most welcome!
great video answers the ultimate question for many
Many thanks!
Aluminium mess tins are still being sold in Singapore for about $5sgd as it’s still being used in the army
It's an amazing piece of equipment that gets most Singaporean Son through outfield XD
Further reading: The 1937 Pattern fitting instructions with prescribed contents can be found here; www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/1937_manuals.html and for a take on what was actually carried in the field later in the war a photograph of the haversack contents belonging to Fusilier Tom Payne of 11 Platoon, 'B' Company, 6th Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers, part of a series taken of Fusilier Payne and his equipment in Normandy, 12 August 1944 can be seen here; tinyurl.com/fusilierpayne
The terms “water proofed “ and “metal work will not be polished but be allowed to get dull” in the text I am sure made many soldiers issued with this equipment smile at the time..... .
Of course the chap from 1944 also used his Entrenching tool carrier to also carry the messier bits of his kit, boot polish and brushes and most important a general clean up rag, many uses that has, both yourself, weapons, kit and something cleaner than the ground to sit on when needed..... like a Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy towel.
Cool (please do more how to pack vids)
Certainly plan to going forwards.
With the mess ( if you excuse the pun) cooking with your mess tins and eating out of them does even though you do your best to clean them, I have found having cloth bags or even news paper to keep your soiled tins away from your other kit is a good idea, as the soot gets everywhere if you have used open wood burning fires.
I have cloth bags to order the contents so it is easy to pack and unpack also it keeps keep the content clean.
So I have a Small Pack of variously sized cloth bags filled with like items, but there is order.
Soot, including that from burning hexamine type fuels, is relatively easy to remove by rubbing the tins on sand, earth, and sometimes even the vegetation you find around.
After cooking clean the tin. mud or sand can be used to scour away carbon deposits and a bit of the towel was used to clean the inside.
extra bags added extra weight. nobody wants a heavy pack when fighting
@@thetooner8203or better yet, a used tea bag and a bit of water.
great video and nice kit! however i would have loved to have seen the water bottle added to the pack with the mess tins nested.
Hi. Great video. Could you possibly tell me the outside dimensions of this haversack please?
Just a quick question to all and one I can't find the answer to. As I understand care of the feet was critical, therefore, along with the socks would the individual soldier not also carry the small tin of foot powder? Again just wondering as I've looked through all of these excellent video's and can't find it mentioned anywhere.
Thanks for the video!
Love it no sporks!
Fantastic.
Many thanks!
Yours is so s q u a r e
Yes, it pleases me.
@@RiflemanMoore It is extremely satisfying.
You should do a video on Bergens if you can from ww2 to falklands era.
A thing that was done is putting small bits and bobs in the mess tin slipcase in the tins or separately i a compartiment
Fantastic! Thanks for bringing those items intended for the invasion of Japan. I have purchased each of those, do you know of further items that are easy enough to purchase?
I have replied with details to the message you left on Facebook!
I found this helpful thank you, just one question, I noticed you didn’t have the housewife kit. As I had been told soldiers used to carry it, I think even today’s army have. I maybe wrong..
Very good again, as usual. Now I need large pack info, and were both packs ever worn together at the same time? As in, haversack on belt, and large pack on back? Also, I have what appears to be a straw tick or mattress cover? Dated 1943, "" C" broad arrow khaki cotton drill material. would this be carried, or part of kit at base?
The pack and haversack were worn together, originally this was intended only for changing stations. The haversack has one-inch buckles on the upper sides so that it may be carried on the brace ends on the left hip. I suggest reading the fitting instructions linked in the pinned comment at the top to see how the set was worn in this manner, they also state the prescribed contents for the pack. It's interesting to note that the 1908 pack wasn't actually incorporated as part of the 1937 Pattern equipment until post-war.
Your khaki drill item sounds like a palliasse - filled with straw it makes a mattress. Used in billets etc but not carried on the man.
@@RiflemanMoore Thanks for quick response, detailed information, and great videos Rifleman Moore!
@@allenprior8573 Thank you Allen!
Do you have a video regarding the large pack?
Would you do a video on British Face camouflage in ww2 ? Can’t really find much about it at all ! Was modern style cam cream used ? Or just dirt and cocoa power etc ?
Cocoa powder and burnt cork were favourites I believe.
So would you have additional personal items in here? And where would your other items go such as army prayer book, foot powder etc
Loving the new videos. Did they not carry the tea mug inside the haversack?
No, you very occasionally see mugs hanging from the straps but even that isn't really all that common, certainly not as common in actuality as it is with reenactors. Glad you're liking the recent uploads.
It's worth remembering that the small mess tin was to be used as a drinking vessel. Mugs were only used in canteens or billets. Also the individual soldier did not have a stove or "the makings" until late in the war so he couldn't drink as much tea as we fondly suppose. Water was all he had.
@@allenprior8573 true, i also imagine the cup could likely brake while in combat. Although from personal experience drinking anything from a messtin is annoying at best. But no tea on demand. God war is hell.
We used the same system (smallpack/pukkel) in the Dutch army up til beginning of the 90 's😁
I thought they would have a small shoe care kit in there with boot polish saying that they have spare laces.
I can always remember there being am emphasis on shoe care, I'd imagine it would be the same back then. Would that be in there or somewhere sperate.
It was carried in some instances, Fusilier Payne, mentioned in the video carried it in his entrenching too carrier.
What's under the aluminium mess tin in the layout
Can u do a ww1 one I need a bit of help on how to pack it
No little about ww2 equipment but if this was their kit what was and how did they carry sleeping kit eg blankets or sleeping bags. Thank you for your videos really informative
Sleeping kit basically consited of grounsheet and greatcoat. The greatcoat was carried in the pack which by this time was usually carried in unit transport.
Rifleman Moore thank you for the quick response. Just wondered what they did after watching this
Would the contents be the same for soldiers in North africa? If not, what items would they have instead.
Would this be the same contents as the British paratroopers carried ?
Have you noticed the embossing on the brass of one the wide straps? Mine has something like a little tent and an "N". I wonder if they all have the same markings.
That sounds like a naval inspection stamp with a broad arrow.
@@RiflemanMoore An arrow, yes! Thank you. Strange that a greenish brown bag belonged to the navy.
Apologies for being rather late, did soldiers ever use straight razors like those in the great war. Great and extremely informative content by the way.
I have heard of squaddies using straight razors in the '60s and '70s because it was cool to do so at the time! In a Second World War context I can well imagine some older soldiers using straight razors though it has to be said I think most would have used a safety razor, far more convenient in the field.
@@RiflemanMoore thanks, i do great war at the moment and may move into ww2.
Excellent!
Double edge disposable razor blades could be difficult to obtain with wartime shortages, rolls razors and straight edge razors were preferable in certain circumstances as these types can be sharped over and over again. Another consideration is the age of the soldier, a lot of older men who grew up with straight edge razors probably used straight edge razors in the army, with younger soldiers using the more modern double edge varieties. Of course the common issue type was a zinc alloy double edge but these seem commonly replaced with a higher quality razor civilian razor in original photos, likely brought from home.
@@nathansaunders2576 Very curiously, my barber, who is a Korean woman (this is in the U.S.) uses a sort of razor with a disposable blade (don't know if single or double edge) that is used like a straight razor. I must check on that next time I get my ears lowered.
Just to clarify the hussif was carried in the pack by most troops right? I've read of Parachutist/airlanding troops carrying them in the haversack though but can you confirm this?
That's basically correct, yes. There will be variations as you say but this was the norm as far as that can be established.
I suggest it would be very, very rare for the mess tins to be carried nested. They would bang against each other. On a long march, the constant noise would be so annoying; let alone the risks posed on a night march or sneak attack. Likewise the KFS would be carried wrapped in some fabric, again to stop them rattling and causing unnecessary noise.
Puts mine to shame 😣 I've got a few extra bits in mine, housewife kit,gloves and balaclava for example. Need to think about thining it down then . Another excellent video RM
Many thanks! It really is a case of less is more, Fusilier Payne even dispenses with the cardigan in the original photos of his kit! I also think he's swapped the cap comforter for a balaclava.
What’s a cap comforter??
Would the standard BEF in 1939 carry things like say the mirror or the button cleaners, foot powder or soap bar? Because the manual doesn't seem to mention it but they do exist I know that
Also, would boot cleaning tools like brush and polish be carried in the pack? Because again, they don't mention it in the manuals for 1939
I have always had some doubts about British mess-tins and cutlery... were they really functional? I do not see myself having soup in them... if anything, I would choose the German kit! the American mess tins are also deplorable, cutlery is good though, and the canteen cup was the best piece, a really good item! nowadays I use small stainless steel bowls, because I do not like to eat in the aluminium German kit... modern US and British plastic canteens are ok, and with a stainless steel cup they are still a very interesting alternative (in relation to modern materials and designs). Very interesting descriptions, I love old webbing! leather and canvas are just soooo cool...
I've used British mess tins a lot and never had a problem with them. They're perfectly functional, for what they are.
Those old rectangular mess tins are so functional they're still being issued. Yeah everyone moans about them and ditches them for a jetboil as soon as they are allowed but they work fine, and are more efficient for packing than something round. Better for protecting "stuff" inside when being carried too -- and a soldier is going to spend more time carrying stuff than heating/cooking/eating.
The German design works okay for drinks, soups and stews but hard to fry bacon, egg and sausage in one.
thanks
Another very interesting video, thank you.Were rations ever stored in the mess tins like in todays webbing? All the best - Jim
I'm glad you found it interesting! As said in the video the mess tins were sometimes used to carry the period 24 hour ration boxes.
@@RiflemanMoore ah sorry i must of missed that bit. Interesting even with all the technological advances in equipment the basics are still the same. All the best - Jim
What is the bag that the fork is in?
Back in.my day bar towels (UK) were very popular in.my battlion better than the issue towel
Is this the typical pattern for demonstration or did soldiers also carry personal items such as letters, pencils, deck or cards, etc in their pack?
In their pockets would be more likely.
Where is it recorded what the soldiers kit should be? Sorry for such a basic question. Is there a book on the subject?
It would vary somewhat based upon specific operations. The contents shown here are typical and are largely referenced from the kit of Fusilier Payne photographs of which are held in the IWM archives.
The "scoff spanners" don't half jangle! Wouldn't they be rolled up in the cap comforter, as prescribed later with the '58 CEFO?
You'd think so but it's not something which seems to have been given as much attention at this time period.
What is the cap comforter??
You forgot boot polish and brush and foot powder - absolutely vital for maintaining the most vital part of infantry equipment - the feet!
Not forgotten, dubbin, not polish, and a brush/rag for applying it were sometimes carried, but not in the haversack. The famous photos of Fusilier Payne's kit show that he stowed his in the entrenching tool carrier. As for foot powder, this would be carried in the pack.
@@RiflemanMoore I have a question we’re the shoe polish and rifle cleaning kit were required to be stored in the haversack, because it seems to me that they are not necessary on campaign
Two questions; what would the weight of the standard pack be? Also, did the troops carry much of anything in the way of personal items? Pictures, letters, socks, etc? If so, how and where would they pack them?
Basic weights can be seen in the 1937 Pattern fitting instructions here; www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/manuals/pdf/britp37.pdf
Socks are included in the kit shown in the video.
Items for letter writing and other personal effects would tend to be carried in the pockets.
@@RiflemanMoore thanks for the reply and the link to the PDF. Very interesting stuff. Have you ever loaded up a set with representative weights and carried it at all? I’d be interested to see how it compares in weight distribution to today’s loads.
By personal items I meant more like extra socks Aunt Nettie knit and the fruitcake from Mum, letters from home, souvenirs, tobacco... Seems impractical to carry that kind of stuff in your pockets, especially letters.
Anyway, thanks for the info, I really enjoy your videos!
The spare socks are carried in the haversack, one extra pair, as shown in the video.
Why would it be impractical to carry letters in pockets? The battledress blouse has two chest pockets, one of which contains the paybook, an ideal place to carry letters too. Ideal for a tobacco wallet or pack of cigarettes and a lighter/matches as well, for easy access.
As for experience of carrying the kit this might be of interest; czcams.com/video/agdo7tFvMe0/video.html
@@RiflemanMoore The spare socks was meant as an example of a personal or non-issued item a soldier might choose to carry in addition to what was on the packing list. I used to carry several spare sets of socks, underwear, undershirts, along with a book, civilian sweater, toque etc.
I guess my point is that in my experience there’s the official packing list and then there’s what is actually carried, the difference being what each individual carried in addition to what was required. Maybe in those days they were 100% restricted to the packing list but it would seem to defy human nature to not have personal extras. You’ve gotten the load out from a Pam but what isn’t represented is the individual soldiers personal items.
For what it’s worth I found that in the field anything in my pockets tended to get wet from either perspiration or precipitation which is why we used to waterproof our maps. I would suspect that putting a letter in my chest pocket would quickly ruin it, which is why I kept that kind of stuff in my rucksack which was lined with a garbage bag.
It wasn’t clear from that video whether or not you had something representing the weight of ammunition.
Regarding an extra pair of civvy socks, if carried I imagine they would be added to the soft kit in the haversack, it's the logical place to carry them.
I would stress the information in this video isn't just based on pamphlets, we are lucky enough to have photographs of one man's kit, taken in Normandy in 1944.
The photographs are neatly grouped in this forum post for ease of reference, the contents of the entrenching tool carrier, haversack and pocket contents including personal effects, invasion money, paybook, improvised first aid kit etc. www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-field-gear/what-infantryman-carries-into-battle-680491/
The haversack contents are basically as prescribed but with a balaclava in place of the cap comforter and the addition of a nail brush.
As with the first aid items in the photos linked above it was not unusual for men to use a gas wallet to keep items dry in their pockets.
When you say "It wasn’t clear from that video whether or not you had something representing the weight of ammunition." Do you mean the video I linked? If so I did mention I had a full load of ammunition but that it was spent blanks, with no round in them. I thankfully now have some deactivated round which are closer to the weight of live ammunition, only lacking the powder.
Were the soldiers allowed to carry two water bottles? One in their pack and one as part of the webbing?
The 1937 Pattern fitting instructions state that the single issued waterbottle is to be carried in the haversack though carrying it on the brace ends in its carrier was in fact the norm. I'm not aware of men being issued a second waterbottle, general issue was definitely one per man.
@@RiflemanMoore i read in an account i forget where, a second water bottle was issued to first wave assault troops on d day but obviously this was an exception to the normal rule. As you correctly point out general issue was one per man. Hope that helps.
Not something I've come across before. I'd be interested to know the source if you can find it again.
@@RiflemanMoore i'll try to find it again if i get chance. it was one of those brief mentions that always sticks in your mind. i think it was particular to men issued with the assault jerkin but wouldn't swear to it.
Did they sometimes carry blankets? I'd imagine that would be an invaluable item if you're spending the night in a trench.
In some specific circumstances blankets were carried but it wasn't common overall and you wouldn't fit one in the haversack, you would need full marching order to carry one effectively.
You see odd footage of a blanket being rolled, and wrapped around it with string to secure, but only moving within Entrainment, it was not part of Battle Order.
I do Para re-enacting, would there be a difference between their contents and the average Tommy? Good info by the way!
It would depend on the specific operation regards rations, etc. but the general contents would be the same.
Rifleman Moore from what I could find out, they carried an extra water bottle in their sack but wasn’t sure what else
Also, thanks for the great content! Very informative.
Again, that's operation specific.
Rifleman Moore thanks for the info. Would say most events focus around DDay or Arnhem
Searching t'interweb, I can't seem to find a source for the Cardigan. Do you have a link?
www.sofmilitary.co.uk/ww2-british-army-v-neck-pullover-jumper.html
@@RiflemanMoore TVM, I'm on their site often. Can't see how I missed that.
Would the ground sheet also function as a pancho?
Yes, the Mk VII groundsheet is also designed to be worn as a cape.
@@RiflemanMoore ,
Thanks. love your channel,great source of information on equipment that is hard to find.
Buena mochila 👍👍👍👍
Does this apply for the WW1 haversack?
Not exactly, no.
Was the RAF Pattern 37 haversack equipped the same as the army or were there differences?
Yes, the RAF blue grey 1937 Pattern equipment was a copy of that used by the Army, only the colour changed.
@@RiflemanMoore So all the equipment inside the pack was the same just in RAF Blue?
I misunderstood your question. The contents would essentially be the same if serving in an infantry role but not in RAF blue, basically as you see here!
@@RiflemanMoore Many thanks for your time. I have the haversack and now will look for the contents.
The holdall was called a "housewife" If I remember correctly.
The housewife, properly 'hussif', is the sewing kit, at least officially speaking.
Yep, sewing kit still called Housewife fairly recently, not sure since 90s.
I have a question did they whear this during combat
Yes
What about the large pack?
Rarely carried, at least in NW Europe. Something for a future video though.
What’s the song from the start?
The Colonel Bogey March.
Hitler has only got one ball
the other is hanging on the wall !
This man seems younger and older than me at the same time.
No tea?! You savages!
Surprised the pack doesn't include a pocket for a canteen or thermos.
You can carry the waterbottle in one of the front compartments.
gem mint condition
The Dutch army used the same pack and contents up till the 80's.
Indeed, I've covered same elsewhere on the channel.
and now i have to carry a 120 ltr 100 lb bergen !
Could you please do one of these for the 1908 haversack?
The holdall was commonly called a housewife when I served
Really? That seems odd, the housewife or 'hussif' is the sewing kit.
The Royce razors are nice...to bad I have a beard so no need to use the one I have.
They certainly carry a lot less than troops today. Surely they needed more than one pair of spare socks. Didnt they carry spare underwear? No sleeping bags either. Lack of warm kit. Was further supplies brought to them from platoon HQ or what?
In theory packs should be brought up by unit transport for a night, this contains the greatcoat amongst other items.
@@RiflemanMoore thanks for the info!
I thought tan ground sheets / rain capes were pre war?
Original dated examples show the opposite as far as I'm aware. The Mk VII groundsheet was introduced in 1917 and looking back as far as Great War dated original examples they show the brown rubberised finish.
@@RiflemanMoore thank you for the information. I have a 1944 dated example in Khaki, would that be okay for BEF?
As stated in the video the tan groundsheet capes come in around 1941 judging by the earliest dates on extant examples.
The earliest dated tan example I've seen is 1940, though I've also seen examples made in the earlier brown rubberised fabric and dated 1941 where the fabric has been reversed during manufacture so the tan, non-rubberised inner surface forms the exterior, presumably to allow manufacturers to utilise existing stocks of fabric.
@@jonprince3237 thank you for the information
Bontent of small pack - as per 1939 dad? Knife Fork Spoon, Razor, Comb & lather Brush, Boot Brush , Tooth Brush, Button Stick and Button Brush. I assume that British servicemen in your world had no need for Boot Brushes?
Where was the housewife kept?
In the pack, generally speaking.
I’d rather keep my spare laces in my etool carrier, as i’d rather not have a greasy mess in my holdall
So, we in the modern army are obsessive about water-proofing everything. All packs, valises, pouches etc are lined with plastic bags. Tomy mind,spare socks and sweater need to be kept dry. How was this achieved in the old days?
The soft kit is tucked against the back, generally speaking, and under the groundsheet which is waterproof and this is generally enough to keep the soft kit dry, at least through rain showers. In really wet weather the groundsheet or perhaps the gas cape could be worn as waterproofs over everything including equipment so soft kit would also be protected.
That said the obsession with waterproofing is a relatively modern fixation so in answer to your question how was it achieved? It wasn't, not to the same degree, even in the tropics.
Some of the subtitles are quite jarring in their “ wrongness “!