How the Book of Mormon was Created - Dan Vogel Pt. 1 | Ep. 1056
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- In our final segments with renowned Joseph Smith historian Dan Vogel, we focus our attention on the creation of the Book of Mormon.
Through his extensive research, Dan theorizes that the Book of Mormon is a tangible artifact giving insight into Joseph Smith's state of mind, and commentary on the cultural and spiritual influences that surrounded him in his early life. In this interview, we focus our attention on the role of the golden plates in the creation of the Book of Mormon, the 116 "lost" pages of the original Book of Mormon and how this event influenced the final product, and we discuss the different events that may have influenced the timeline in which the Book of Mormon was created.
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:30 Summary of Joseph Smith’s early life
00:04:05 There were no visits to the hill, even though he said there was
00:06:40 Joseph tried to solve his family’s religious disputes
00:10:25 The earliest part of the Book of Mormon saved Alvin
00:12:11 Dan believes Joseph had a born again experience in 1820
00:16:25 The Book of Mormon is anti-Masonic
00:23:23 What is his theory for Joseph Smith writing a book?
00:25:40 Joseph Smith is pretty definitely a narcissist
00:31:46 Dan’s theory that Joseph Smith created a set of plates
00:33:55 When Joseph Smith gets the plates
00:40:35 Joseph Smith dislocated his thumb
00:44:05 Dan Vogel’s theory of Joseph Smith created the plates from tin
00:48:07 When does Joseph Smith finish making the plates?
00:53:06 Did Joseph Smith write the book in a short period of time?
==============DAN VOGEL PLAYLISTS==============
Dan Vogel - Preeminent Joseph Smith Historian Playlist:
• Mormon Stories #1051: ...
Dan Vogel on Early Church History:
• Dan Vogel on Early Chu...
Dan's CZcams Channel: / @danvogel6802
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Over and over John states his opinion that Joseph was out to make money, and I’ve always thought that, too, but every single time: Dan brings home the point that Joseph didn’t want money, he wanted power. He wanted converts, he wanted believers, beginning with his own father. It makes perfect sense. Joseph motives were not just money, that is so obvious to me know. Thank you!! I’ve loved this more than I can say!
The B of M explains more in depth about life before, why we don't remember the pre earth realm, what went on in the pre earth realm, why we gained a body, why the fallen didnt, what lifes for, what we gotta do to live with God again, what baptism is for, what we need to do to live with God again, being sealed to our family, why there's baptism for the dead, what happens after life, where we might end up after our resurrection, why we need a body.
So many other things a young man couldn't have known, like how to write in biblical from in scriptures, which could of only be done by divine intervention. That it doesn't sound like Greek mythology, which the Book of Mormon would of if written by men in earth.
Also, just the span of time it was written, that none on earth can write in biblical form and not ever could without divine intervention. The LDS Church is flawless in its structure, perfect as a institution, it's beautiful and has so much that no one on earth never knew. The missionaries can explain it, tell it as it really is, say it, how the temple is created and just over all, the purpose of life.
Mankind just isn't capable of that much knowledge in restoring the truth on earth and the Church signifies the way of Jesus. So, there's no reason to believe this institution was made up. It's substantial in writing ones biography, reading it, you'd not know the real nature and real persona to know for certain, any ambitions, intent or convections.
@@cowboyneverdycowboynevercr2027
What are you talking about? The Book of Mormon never mentions preexistence. That theology doesn't come until much later.
Writing in pseudo-KJV style was one of the most common practices in Smith's day.
Cowboy never Dy Cowboy never Cry lol joe smith copied the King James Bible. Bom and kJv is so similar.
@@Charles-Pettibone Yes, in fact that's one reason not to believe it is a "translation." Why would a translation from an ancient civilization be written in 17th century English, rather than 19th century English?
@@cowboyneverdycowboynevercr2027 Galatians 1:8-9
Dan Vogel is an unsung hero of LDS history. Love to get a glimpse of his mind and research. Thank you Dan for everything!
Yeah vogel owns. He has the best, most plausible explanations and theories. I wish we had historians like Vogel getting into other topics...
Dan Vogel is a pioneer and one of the great scholars of Mormon studies. I appreciate his scholarship and the way its helped me to develop a more intelligent and rational world view and personal faith.
Dan’s episodes are by far my favorite. I love his style. He’s not on a war path against JS, he just goes with the facts. Things we know. He doesn’t speculate really...I love him and find his mannerisms and way of thinking entertaining.
My favorite episodes as well.
Dan Vogel knows his stuff. By far the most knowledgeable and accurate Mormon historian. Best Mormon Stories series you've done.
Even though the Book of Mormon was fabricated, the fact Joseph pulled it off speaks volumes about his charisma.
I greatly appreciate Dan's work. He literally wrote the book on LDS historical documents. Thanks Dan!
The Tanners too
I really loved the scholarship of Dan's presentation. He's done more than his homework to bring the facts to light. It's obvious to anyone who will listen, that his history is spot on. There's no denying that the Book of Mormon is a creation of fiction and this interview solidifies that fact. Thanks for bringing this to us! Thanks Dan for sharing your knowledge and insight!
Book of Mormon isn't fiction. I've read it it's filled with the gospel of Christ.
Mr. Vogel, I am so grateful for all the work you have done to uncover thruth with regards to Joseph Smith. It has helped me in so many ways in my deconversion and faith crisis!!
Dan addresses the topic intelligently, unbiased and truthfully. Truth does sometimes hurt.
I agree, except I don't believe that anyone can truly be unbiased.
Been mormon for 24 years. Adopted at age 8 into the religion. Literally prayed this morning after reading the New Testament asking God if He would be willing to show me which way to go to find my answer. Thank you Father In Heaven. This is what I’ve been searching for.
So you moved from one scam to another?
@@dflctr baby steps
@Derek Beckett dogmatic atheists are worse than cult members in my opinion
@@dflctr that’s a childish way of looking at life and religion. I’m not religious, but there’s plenty of good people and successful people who believe in a God. Don’t be a hater.
@@jacobreeves3110 it's still a scam. You're childish if you can't realize it.
Dan’s meticulous research is a gift to Mormon Studies-Thank you!
Thank you, Dan Vogel, for all your excellent work! Your research is so important to Mormon studies, keep it coming.
Joseph Smith needed some good golden spray paint for those tin plates he made! Lol
😂 Alison Cruz. Maybe a pair of pliers too? Might not have dislocated his thumb. Now I’m ‘out’, the whole thing just sounds cray cray!
Only 8 people saw them allegedly.
Dan is brilliant! I'm so glad people like him exist. We need scholarly people to get the word out. He's got my support
Thank you Dan, for your diligent work and research. Out of various people I’ve learned from about the actual history of Joseph Smith, I thought you were one of the most intelligent and captivating I heard. I listened to 13 1/2 hours of your story and the history of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon authorship on on Mormon Stories and enjoyed every minute. Thank you for your sacrifices and immense contributions!
Great job John getting and keeping Dan on track. Dan has so much knowledge it's difficult to connect all the dots into one narrative. Masterful work by both these gentlemen.
The reason his wife and family did not check out the contents of the wooden box or look under the cloth is because first, Joseph guarded the so-called
plates very militantly and would not allow anyone to see or examine them. Then to make sure they didn't, he seriously warns family and friends that is anyone looks at the plates they will die. As for the "plates" since no one was ever allowed to examine them. They could have been sheet metal, maybe brass, likely fabricated with the tools in his father's barrel making shop across the road from the family cabin. But one thing is clear, whatever the "plates" were, they had nothing to do with the process of actually producing the Book of Mormon. Joseph NEVER uses them to "translate" the Book of Mormon. At one time they are buried in the woods outside his father-in-laws house while Joseph is in the house supposedly translating them. With his seer stone in the hat, Joseph produces the Book of Mormon the way some novelists write, for example, Stephen King, the prolific writer, who puts himself into a self-induced trance state to do his writing. Some writers call this "flash" writing.
The best part about telling Emma, William and Martin, etc. that God will strike them dead if they look at the plates is that (if this is true) there is no need to hide them. God would just kill anyone who tried to steal them, right?
It's a constant theme to keep things a secret (gold plates, first vision, restoration of the priesthood, polygamy, etc.) whenever new revelations are received and shared. I think this is a way to prime individuals to convince and believe they are part of something bigger than themselves. Also, like Dan says, it's Joseph's way of testing things out on family and followers (or make revisions).
Like Scientology and how the organization is structured, it's designed to condition the individual. That's why LDS members are so afraid to leave. Our salvation and exaltation with our loved ones are at stake, depending on how invested we let ourselves become.
What Dan is saying is simply mind blowing and fascinating. It almost seems like Jon doesn’t fully appreciate the monumental explanatory power of Dan’s theory. 😂
This podcast series is amazing.
Thank you so much, John!
Ive been waiting for this for so long
Excellent research by Dan Vogel. Thank you Dan for all your hard work and videos. We have learned so much! Thank you John and Dan for your time and this interview!
Thank you Dan V. Yes there are those who are upset by truth and info brought to light by you. I'm sure there's many reasons they fight the truth. Cognitive dissonance from the facts is tough for anyone, impossible for many.
Thankfully this history information is gathered and presented in such a thoughtful way. Thanks Dan for not fearing the power of the Mormon Church more than your desire to share truth. I Probably need to set aside an hour everyday to study this information. I share it with faithful members of the Mormon Church because I too feel it important to know history. I can tell you that, had I known this before 1969, I likely would have made another decision about being a missionary in Central America.
Amazing and well researched content. Thank you Dan for all that you do!
First Dan Vogel mic drop at 26:15!
Second mic drop at 26:45!
TKO!!
fascinating dan vogel. everybody, including people who were raised in the cult, wants to know how anyone can be so gullible. for one thing, the church doesn't ever give the full enchilada. another thing, when you're 8 years old, just having your dad's shadow pass over you is a great thing. now imagine him being proud of you. it's hard to think for yourself, devilishly hard. you need to ease into a few mental gymnastics to make it work. (i read the posts below. we all do mental gymnastics). with the years we ease into a few more mental gymnastics. anyway, back to the video. just when i thought i knew everything about mormonism, now i'm watching dan vogel and the pieces come together like never before.
Terrific interview. Well worth the time.
This series with Dan Vogel is with no doubt among the most important of all of Mormon Stories. I’m super grateful for Dan and his work .
Dan Vogel’s CZcams channel also has amazing content.
Dan’s scholarship is amazing.
Yes amazingly bad
@@chinookwind8535Lol, obviously you didn't have any facts to back up your argument. 😂
@charlesmendeley9823 neither does Dan I'm impressed you felt it necessary to comment on a 2 yr old post
@@chinookwind8535 Lol, thanks for your argument now. It proves you haven't learned anything over the course of two years, lol. 🙈
@@charlesmendeley9823 ah such a proud haughty statement
Must feel good to be superior like you come across
Invaluable research and presentation of the truth ... something the Church could really work on in my opinion!
Why doesn’t anyone have the balls to call out Smith for what he truly was: a charismatic narcissistic cult leader who was obsessed with power, fame, sex, and fortune...
Hi Brian. I’ve studied Joseph Smith my entire life, mostly from church-friendly sources. I’ve read the Book of Mormon beginning to end about ten times. I find John and Dan to be reasonable and their views worth considering.
One thing I’ll point out about your comment: you say God wouldn’t leave the world without the light that emanates from Salt Lake City, but he did for the better part of 2,000 years. That is a long time during which, according to LDS doctrine, God did exactly what you say he wouldn’t do.
@@briannorbury8840 I've read the BoM, just straight through efforts, at least 13 times. There is nothing I've studied more in this life than Mormonism. I endorse the post, and saying we are like the murderers at Carthage because we don't buy, hook line and sinker, all the con man tried to sale us, that we are these evil people in wait who can't appreciate the wonder of having God's mouthpiece on earth. You're trying to convince us he wasn't a cult leader, right?
You just did, but I summarize him as a self-absorbed womanizing conman who never did an honest day's work his entire life.
Justin, thank you. And possibly beyond narcissistic to psychopathic. Brigham Young certainly sounded like a psychopath. Aren't conmen by their very nature psychopathic?
Lol!! So many people who "know" exactly who Joseph Smith was! Do you even know who your next door neighbor is? Your boss? Do you even know yourself??
Most people see others through the lens of their own qualities and short comings, including the people of the early 1800's.
Only holy spirit can reveal the truth. All of you self proclaimed experts are sadly pathetic. So desperate to pass judgment on an uneducated farm boy from early 1800's because... why?
It must make you feel better about yourself in some way.
Ok, so you don't believe the LDS church. Fine. Its your journey. Best of luck to you! Move on. Why all the negative energy spent trying to discredit Joseph Smith?
Unfortunately none of your "proof" is real. It's all historical hear say.
Besides being my doppelganger, Dan is brilliant as a historian and evaluator of LDS history.
Dan and John have spent decades researching Mormonism from ALL sides (not just what the church shoves down people’s throats), they are scholars if I’ve ever listened to any. Don’t insult people just because you don’t agree. Literally these guys have dedicated their lives to helping people have real, unbiased info about a church that is, in fact,
a cult. “Anti” literature isn’t anti when it’s accurate.
Emma went through the wringer with Joseph!! I agree with you Dan....If Emma lied I think it was to preserve her own sanity. Back then women did not have rights like we do now. For her to admit that Joseph lied, was a scoundrel, etc would have ruined her life, her reputation, and her parents reputation. Also I think she wanted this to be true! Having a prophet for a husband or a con man...which one would you choose. On some level I am sure Emma had her doubts...but I don't think she would ever have let herself go there.
i gotta agree. for emma it was in for a penny in for a pound. elope with a man against your father's wishes, and then come back to the family 6 months later and say, "you were right dad, he's a lazy lieing conman". "sorry, i'm back home now. i'm not a virgin anymore, so i don't know who'll have me, but oh well. you'll get used to it pops."
Same with the witnesses, once they started the lie they couldn't deny it, the monetary system was based off of reputation, if they would've been known as liars they wouldn't have been able to get loans etc.
I just bundled up 2 new quads and dumped them in the trash yesterday. I wasn't about to donate them, and let another person be poisoned by them. I feel I've been set free, free from all the nonsensical rules and requirements: do this, don't do that. Don't wear this; don't drink that. Give your money, magnify your callings; get to the temple, do your genealogy, attend all your meetings, blah, blah, blah. It's endless. Just believe in Jesus Christ, and let Him do the rest.
Salvation thru Jesus Christ is a free gift of God. It is the only religion that doesn't require one to do this and that to qualify for eternal life with God. Free gift, all we must do is admit we are sinners and nothing we do will ever be good enough to allow us into his perfect existence. The last thing Jesus said on the cross is it is finished. The debt has been paid. If you accept Jesus as your Savior, your sins are washed away and you are now under the blood of Jesus.
Good for you, brother!
Wise decision.
@@kathyclark8274 I can't believe it's been 2 years since I wrote that. I have NO regrets.
I haven't watched it all yet, but do hope you will be referring to the kernel of the Book of Mormon directly deriving from Rigdon's 'borrowing' from a Pittsburgh printing office of a certain speculative and unpublished work of fiction by one Solomon Spaulding. That situation had very much to do with Smith's ultimate decision in creating his fantasy religion in the earliest stages. Actually, without this knowledge understood properly, the golden plate tales would never have 'gotten off the ground' and the whole cloth of sequenced surmising toward the later factual accounts remains incomplete. Good discussion.
Lots of sources indicate that Joseph Sr. was a cooper and owned a cooper shop. I'm wondering why Mr. Vogel does not address this when the question of how Jr. manufactured the fake plate is posited. (Just wondering.)
he obviously knew. probably he was trying to get to the end of the subject at hand. but it is a good point i wondered at myself.
Dan has talked about it in other venues so your question certainly has merit.
Not sure if this is how you should interview a historian. John’s trying to get Dan to confirm his own presuppositions about Smith. But Dan doesn’t do what he does to give Christians an apologetic against Mormonism, it’s to tell the history.
Personally, I don’t find it hard to believe Emma never looked at the plates, and I think John’s inability to accept that is reading his own 21st century context backwards into the 19th century. If you did a good study of history, especially the things that happened for example in Munster in the 17th century anabaptist rebellion, you would be shocked to see just how far people go for superstitions. That makes Emma Smith’s activity pretty normal. Martin Luther, when he was a priest in the Roman Catholic Church really, truly believed he was holding the body and blood of Jesus Christ in the transubstantiation of the Mass. We could go on into the Gnostic weirdness in the early church as well, and many, many more stories that show us that people all throughout history believed to the deepest part of their hearts things we see as silly today.
Tin was everywhere back then. Tinsmiths, tinkers, tinners, or tinmen, would travel the countryside repairing tin items in exchange for money, food, or lodging regularly in the 19th century and early 20th century
This is why Utah has the worst mental health record in the country. So sad.
As a native American ex Mormon, who has a personal relationship with the creator......idk why I find this stuff interesting
I love Dan and think he's a genius only problem I have with the proposed narcissist theory is that didn't Joseph say in the Book of Commandments his only purpose was to bring about the Book of Mormon. I heard that when he tried to do more than bring forth the Book of Mormon it upset David Whitmer. Another Book of Commandment issue would be the revelation to sell the rights of the book to Canada. By the way I think Dans theories on most Mormon issues are a heck of a lot better than any other ones I have heard. Maybe the Grant Palmer story of why Joseph upset William Law and eventually died is the only other theory I think holds a candle to Dans. Sandra Tanner, Jeremy Runnels, Quinn and the others also have good ideas too.
According to David Whitmer, the Canadian copyright was to rid themselves of Martin Harris, who was trying to make money off his investment. Note that I’m arguing that JS’s primary motivation was a narcissistic need for power, not that it was his only motivation. Later, especially in Nauvoo, he certainly was concerned about the personal acquisition of money, although like most charismatic leaders he was no good at it. My thesis is that after his incarceration in Missouri (1838-39), he reacted against the helplessness he had felt by grabbing all the power he could get, in all its forms.
Because the BOM is outspoken about a paid clergy, JS and Sidney Rigdon were turned down by the high council when they requested a salary. When he dictated the BOM he clearly was not looking very far into the future. Plus he was probably in a very idealistic phase of his career and had not applied his ideas to the real world.
In March 1829, he dictated a revelation (now D&C 5) to Martin Harris, which said: “and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant unto him no other gift.” (BofC IV, 2) This was a month before he began dictating the Book of Mormon to Oliver Cowdery. At this time, he evidently didn’t even envision himself as the founder of a new church, but saw his mission as a reformer of the existing churches through the Book of Mormon. However, as the dictation progressed his ideas about himself and his mission evolved to include the founding of a church and the establishment of a New Jerusalem government.
who did what and when did they do it? if we asked the question to a special committee in congress i don't think they could come up with a definitive answer. how much of the church was sidney rigdon? what did he have to do with the book of mormon, and/or the foundation of the church? i think he had a whole lot to do with the founding of the church. he was, for example, the doctrine in the doctrine and covenants. the "lectures on faith" imho came directly from sidney rigdon. briggy completely shunned sidney rigdon, and pulled his "lectures on faith" out of the scriptures, and tried to delete him from history along with emma.
He would have obviously used a hammer, and a punch to make the holes in the tin. Possible the thumb injury is actually from hitting his thumb with the hammer. In haste, he probably was not "punching" one hole at a time .... but several sheets at a time. As the punch dulls, it becomes more difficult to make the holes ... and requires more impact.
But it would be his left thumb, not his right, if he was right handed.
I am not Mormon, but seems to me if I had given 10 percent of my income over the years, to support such an organization, I would be hiring an attorney, and suing to get my money back.
When missionaries offer the BoM yes it is free, but latter when you join to the church you become a member you need to pay tithes, fasting offering and law of consecration, so you pay that multiple times as long as you active at the church, and you will to pay more as your business, your income and your wealthy is increased, nothing is free actually if you can considered it.
God no needs our money to build his fancy house, He only needs our kindness and love each other, this universe is more beautiful and more colorfull than the temple building, you can see and feel God love everywhere and gain your love through the beautiful nature which God already created.
Can imagine the guy who found the Dead Sea scrolls doing the same thing to the scrolls that Joseph did to the plates when he found them. (hiding them, locking them up, not showing them to people but lettting them feel them) It’s absurd. There would be no reason to do so. Same with Joseph. It’s an obvious fraud.
Trying to understand Joe is a heady task. The first thing to do is attempt to shed our presentism. The early 19th century was weird. Folk magic is wound up in the story very intricately. So is rampant speculation about Native American origins both in speeches and writings. And yes: He was a narcissist!
Thank you for the truth!!
Please, let him answer.
When you state that Emma has to be in on the con because there is no way she wouldn't have looked at the plates in Joseph's absence, I disagree. From personal experience, I can tell you that fear of God's wrath is strong enough to prevent a person from doing something, even something as simple and obvious as looking at the plates. That's the case even if they think no one else would know. I can easily believe that Emma would not look at the plates since Joseph would no doubt have convinced her that she would be damned or struck by God.
What about the witnesses to the gold plates?
Watch Dans you tube channel about that and you will see what he believes on the issue
Stephanie, the witnesses actually left the church, 2 out 3, and I think one came back. Out of the other 8 witnesses, no one of them actually saw plates, they saw them "with their spiritual eyes". Some of them said to Joe "but I don't see anything", whereupon Joe chastised them for their little faith, and convinced them they saw with their spiritual eyes. Nobody ever saw them, cause they were a fabrication.
when they say, see with the understanding of the eye, that's code meaning to not see with the eyeball, but see in the mind as in a vision. what they saw, and how they saw it, and what they said at the time, and how it was recorded is a vast gray area. you might recall the testimony of 3 witnesses is in the book of mormon. the book of mormon originally said written by joseph smith sole proprietor. it now says translated by joseph smith. 3,000 changes to the book of mormon from the original and not a hint to the reader about one of them.
@@longnamenocansayy I think there are actually around 3900 changes to the BOM, but like you say, people at large just ignore that. They don't let the facts get in the way of their beliefs.
In regards to John's question about Emma; if she was in on it..I'd like to suggest, she was a compliant victim!
Married women had few if any rights!
Getting a divorce was much harder back then. If she came out about her husband being a fraud. A variety of things could have happened,,( divorce, DV, public shame, ) none of them good!! Based on his claims that god would strike her if she looked. . And his claims that god would destroy her if she didnt accept polygamy. You cant help but wonder, how safe she felt there!
Wow, "the rest of the story".
You may be overlooking the probability that he had influence and inspirational help from the dark side.
I would strongly disagree that JS had a "born again experience in 1820." JS had a completely unbiblical view of God, just read the King Follett discourse where JS said that God was once man. No one can be a true Christian if you hold to a heretical view of God, and especially deny the trinity.
Joseph Smiths Visionary experience strongly resembles many other contemporary visionary experiences of both the Father and the Son, during the second great awakening. One such experience is of Charles Finney, a famous evangelical preacher of the time. He speaks of his vision regularly and encourages seekers to have the same. Today, a vision is not known as a born again experience, but during the second great awakening such a vision was a common conversion experience for a Protestant seeker. These terms today are familiar by referring to such an experience as “born again.”
D and C 19 is just a threat to Martin Harris. Pay for the printing, or You'll go to hell and I'll tell everyone about your adultery. And don't mention this to anyone.. thats the gist of it. Once he had Martin Believing that, he also had full control over him, to agree that he saw the plates, when he didn't. Paying for the book was the last straw for Lucy, and brought the lawsuit against Joseph, but Martin was obliged to stick up for Joseph, getting him off
Dan Vogel always frustrates me with how non-linear he is. But now that I think about it, it’s probably because these so much info in his mind that it takes a lot of effort to parse through it and only say what’s salient and important. He really is a wonder.
😂
I laugh that people are dumb enough to think the BofM came from a magic glowing rock in a hat.
No sheeit, they're sure ignorant, especially when they know not enough to talk against the Church. It was an Angel, a interpreter, not ever been told it was the many ways suggested by insinuaints, accusists, 😄, denialists, 😅, ummm, skiptinites and exacerbites.
I never cussed so much in my life! 😀😄😆😁,👍!
Nah, haha, kd'n, no
I’m capable of critical thinking like many people are. But this one has a lot of stretching. It’s largely going back in time and finding convenient themes that fit the narrative you’re trying to create. It’s like a pundit show on a news channel. It’s “news”, but it’s not quite news.
It's even difficult for these two to makeup what they think actually happened, but they're struggling with the restoration of the gospe, how it was restored back on earth.
JS’s age, his visions and spirit visits perhaps points to true bi polar disorder. Also his energy, voracious sexuality and charisma is classic. Sorry nothing new there. He did have good organizational skills, which is unusual, but maybe it was people around him that believed and fed off his energy and they were the folks who set up the nuts and bolts of organizing the church.
This fellow, Dan is amazing. He has incredible mind-reading powers.
If you believe the story of the creation and the Garden of Eden, and if you believe the story of the flood and Noah's ark, and if you believe Moses parted the Red Sea, and if you believe that several resurrected dead people visited Joseph Smith 200 yrs ago, you are a faithful Mormon!
I’m sorry, but this guest sounds like he’s making it up as he goes. Is it his assertion his version is factual?
What do you think did he make up? He is referring to Lucy Mack's book on the history of her son Joseph.
Dan Vogel has done a tremendous amount of research on Joseph Smith, using available historical data, newspaper articles, etc. Problem with mormons is they do not want to fact the truth and admit their so-called prophet might actually be a 'false' prophet.
Just a couple of Nehors flappin'
So after Joe Smith made the tin plates did he paint them yellow to trick the eleven witnesses?
The witnesses saw them in visions, not in reality. The tin plates were always veiled in cloth or stored safely in a locked box.
They didn't look at physical plates. They prayed and saw them in a vision. The tin plates were always wrapped in cloth or rattling inside a box.
You are fulfilling prophecy as you speak negative about Joseph Smith the BofM is still here and another testimony of Jesus Christ
It will not go away and continue to fill the earth despite Dan's absurdities
Joseph Smith didn’t have to be a prophet to predict that his attack on mainstream Christianity would illicit responses. Ken might contrast that will many other prophecies Joseph Smith uttered that totally failed, such as the establishment of Zion and its temple in his generation or, when his followers were expelled from Jackson County, that Zion would be redeemed by 11 September 1836. I do not attack Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon in the sense that I cannot say he was not a prophet or that the Book of Mormon is not inspired-that’s for religious people to decide. I’m only a historian who is concerned for an accurate representation of the historical Joseph Smith and whether we should take seriously the historical claims of the Book of Mormon. That Smith’s book still has adherents is irrelevant. The Koran is still here; the Bhagavad Gita is still here. Astrology is still here. Nothing I can do about that.
@@danvogel6802 In his own history Joseph Smith wrote the following about his encounter with the Angel Moroni verse 33 states
33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
Well Dan this prophecy is spot on and has been fulfilled daily since he wrote his history and will continue until the world ends.
Thanks Dan for your part in fulfilling this most important prophecy. I know he was and is a prophet there both sides of the prophecy had been fulfilled today
Cheers
It will not fill the earth. The fastest growing religion is not Mormonism. It is slowing down.
your very incisive view of mormonism can only be gotten by extensive reading of history, which is particularly hard with mormonism as both sides say the other side is lieing. another big problem for most people is that there doesn't seem to be a start date and the goal of mormonism was presented what is mormonism? what are it's goals? how will it obtain those goals? you won't find it in the standard works or journal of discourses. the lay body is absolutely clueless about church doctrine, except one thing. they know they are persecuted. i am presently reading a book called " the story of the mormons" by william alexander linn. the doctrine of creating a new jerusalem with the indians dovetails with the first 3 chapters of the book. the mormon church doctrine of making the indians white and delightsome by "adopting" indian kids for the school year also agrees with your explanation. you can get "the story of mormonism" from project gutenberg. they also have "mormon menace confessions of john d lee", " blood atonement, and the origins of plural marriage" "the mormon prophet and his harem by c.v. waite, and roughing it by mark twain. or people could just sit in front of the internet and listen to you.
Do you think JS somewhere discovered a completed, unpublished and forgotten manuscript written years before by a deceased author or authors? He dictated it verbatim to Oliver Cowdery five pages at a time, then took OC's manuscript to the printer? JS destroyed the original pages after every sitting. So, when the 116 pages were lost, JS couldn't re-translate them as he'd destroyed the originals, one bundle at a time.
JS was incapable of writing the BOM himself.
None of Jesus' disciples were literate. Educated people wrote the gospels in perfect Greek under the name of a disciple. Literacy was uncommon. For example, it is not claimed that Mark wrote Mark's gospel himself.
Muhammad was illiterate and did not write the Koran himself.
So if JS claimed to write the BOM himself, under God's direction, then that was a first for God. What do you think?
Yeah if you twist Joseph's life and tell it from a biased and slanted view you can make him look bad. Well done at being dishonest.
Surely you are trolling….
@@quaidwilburn9373 which is no different than the dishonest creator of this video. Only difference is I'm not dishonest.
Yeah if you 'honestly' look at the facts of Joseph's life and tell it from a fact based evaluation, of course, he will look bad. Well done at being honest John and Dan.
@@johns1834 Facts ..............here are facts Joseph Smith Jr. was a Prophet of God.
@@Dandeeman26 Tell me, why do mormons desecrate the body and blood of Jesus Christ after every Sunday service, when the left over 'blessed and sanctified' bread and water is thrown into the trash, but show more respect to old worn out garments by first removing the satanic freemasonry symbols before disposal?
Smith spoke of 'another' Jesus, not found in the Bible, during his 1844 King Follett Discourse and mormons believe Jesus is the brother of Lucifer/Satan, which is also not supported in the Book of Mormon.
Apostle Paul warns of those teaching ‘another’ Jesus (2 Corinthians 11: 4, and goes on in verses 14-15); “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Paul also says in 1 Timothy 4: 1 "Now the Spirit expressly says that in 'LATER TIMES' some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".
Get the connection? Later times / Latter Day Saint.
Jesus says in Matthew 7: 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits".
Fact - Smith called himself a prophet, but he definitely was NOT a prophet of God, you know this by their fruit because mormons throw Jesus in the trash after every Sunday service.
God Bless You.
Besides being my doppelganger, Dan is brilliant as a historian and evaluator of LDS history.