"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"...True perfection is literal nothingness, because when you never try, you can never fail, and there will be no faults for "reviewers" to "take points away" for. And that is fucking boring as hell... which is kind of a flaw if you think about it. [/metaphysical wankery] Maybe the real point is that points are pointless, especially the "deduction style" grading system. Maybe we should just stop taking ratings that seriously all together... to quote Yahtzee, "I don't believe in scores because I don't believe a complex opinion can be represented numerically. You like numbers? How about four, as in fourk you"
So what you're saying is, for a lot of people, a show starts as a 10/10 and drops from there as flaws accumulate? That sounds about right. For me, all shows start as a 5/10 or 6/10, and can go up or down based on things I like and things I don't. So technically, if I end up rating something a 4/10, it's not awful, it's just a little under its starting point. Likewise, a story with "no flaws" would guarantee a 5 at minimum on my scale. But it wouldn't guarantee a 10. I would gladly rate a show with more flaws higher if it does a bunch of things that the "perfect" show never got close to doing. What guarentees shows on my scale higher scores is not perfection, but "value." If I get more out of a show, it it causes me to think more, if it causes me to see something I didn't see before, that's what gets it points. Sure, flaws can make it fall, but it can still get above a five if I value it higher than a five despite that. My least favorite kind of show isn't a show littered with flaws. It's a show that does nothing for me. Subtract nothing from zero and you still get zero. Subtract a little bit and add a lot, and you have yourself a positive number.
Objective perfection can't exist in a subjective medium like art. Really any video addressing it is missing the point. Calling any art "perfect" is always something that should be taken with a grain of salt.
+Bamoo The Elephant A guy says Cowboy Bebop is perfect. The cartoon has no flaws in his opinion. Another guy comes in and says Cowboy Bebop is a piece of shit. Perfection when applied to art is Subjective.
I feel like a classic quote from the famous Anna Karenina applies to this video very well. "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way". I would rather see something fail in a spectacularly entertaining way than succeed in a mediocre way.
I truly think the best way to define a 10/10 is anything you think is better than 90% of the other stuff you engaged with. It’s not as romantic or epic as the idea of something so transcendently good that it reaches a point of perfection but honestly there’s just so much more utility in knowing what someone thinks is better than 90% of the other stuff they’ve seen/read/what ever. Like that really means something tangible and imo more important.
An interesting perspective and I do agree with you about short films being broader in their themes and experiences but I feel like your comparison regarding a short film to 2 season anime is a tad unfair. Both short films and long form media are trying to illicit an emotional response from an audience but obviously short films are going to be at a supreme disadvantage as a result of having 1/1000 of the time available to connect with that same audience. I mean when you have hours to world-build and explain the motivations and backstories of all of the characters then obviously the payoffs are going to have more impact. A cupcake is a sweet treat with almost universal appeal that lasts you a few minutes and then is gone, while a full 3-course meal will have a variety of flavors (some of which you like more than others) and might last you about an hour. Both ultimately serve the same purpose (to satisfy a craving) but one is obviously more filling.
So really what you are saying is excellence is scalable (or lack there of). If anything, shouldn't a greater perfection should be sought after once you have mastered something more rudimentary. Also, while perceivable perfection may seem menial, like (due to it's meticulous construction) the 3 minute video was sad, aren't the greatest perfections just that de facto at first glance as well, like E=mc^2 or the fact me and you can exist in this place called the universe (because of the big bang and every variable coming into play henceforth)? Or in other words to steal 2 different people's ideas at the same time, "any intelligent fool can make things more complex, and bigger, but it takes a touch of genius to make something as simple as possible, but no simpler."
A question has occurred to me since last night: Who exactly is comparing "perfect" short films to "imperfect" anime shows? And why? I have only ever found myself comparing short films to other short films because like with my cupcake analogy, it's bizarre to me to be comparing the two in the first place. If you (or anyone else for that matter) have an example of someone doing this then I'd have a better understanding of where you're coming from as I do not frequent sites like myanimelist and such. I can only speak for myself, but I tend to go even farther with the compartmentalization of my favorites list insomuch as I only compare shows of matching genres and formats because each genre has different goals they are trying to achieve and my opinion of them is based upon how well they achieve those goals. For example: I do not watch a ton of romance animes but Toradora is one of my all time favorites in that genre, however it doesn't hold a candle to TTGL because Mecha Action series are among one of my favorite genres. But for me to compare the two is absurd because they are trying to accomplish completely different things. I went off on a tangent a bit but it got me thinking about why things are compared relative to each other so often based upon nothing other than a score.
I believe this whole video is pointless because scores are already terrible. Giving a 3 minute short a 10/10 is completely different from giving a 500 episode show a 10/10. Numerical scoring shouldn't ever be taken taken as a serious indication of worth.
I agree, but I think if you expanded it to include similar comparisons it is a good point. Something that plays it safe with no glaring flaws isn't as good as something that might lack in some areas but goes above and beyond in others or at least it isn't better than it
It's all about perspective, really. You can judge an animated short as a short or as an animation and both judgements can vary when comparing to other shorts or animations. You can only judge something objectively when you set some kind of rules first to have something you can base your judgement on. So paradoxically, no objective judgement is fully objective because you can have many different scores for the same thing and some pros can become cons in other analysis based on what rules you judge it. There are a lot of rules in life that start breaking under their own weight when you take a closer look at them and the ideas of perfection and objectivity are some of them.
Number scoring is ridiculous because it is really only for sell things. It is for capitalism, that is the only reason. I don't care about that. Tell me why you like it.
Definitely feel the same way. The more that I study art the more that I appreciate art that doesn't try to hide it's flaws. This is why I really like characters in media that are deeply flawed, it makes them far more relatable.
Being forgettable, or lacking a greater sense of complexity and depth can be a flaw in itself. However I would't say flawlessness defines perfection anyways. That term is far too subjective and emotionally driven. To me a 10/10 is simply something, that I've enjoyed a lot overall.
"Perfection" is one of those words that says less about the thing you're describing and more about what your standards/evaluative criteria are at the time (at least in terms of art critique). For things like recreational shows it seems to often be used as "I had a very pleasurable experience watching that show" and since your experience depends in part on your mental & emotional state at the time of viewing, it should be taken with a grain of salt when someone describes a show (or song/movie/game, etc.) as "perfect".
This calls for another question : Why would you rate a 3 minute short on the same basis as a full-fledged series ? Why not rate the 3 minute short in comparison to other 3 minute shorts. That's why I usually don't rate AMV, OVAs, Specials, etc...
Does this idea of perfection not take into account people's tastes? Or does it just dismiss them by saying that if someone doesn't like a "perfect" thing, it's because they have bad taste? Would a perfect thing, by definition, not appeal to everyone despite their taste? What value could I find in something supposedly perfect if I don't perceive it as interesting or entertaining?
A Gesamtkunstwerk combines multiple mediums into a single work. The term was codified by Wagner, whose operas combined poetry, music, painting of backdrops, etc. Modern examples which come to mind are movies and TV. While a good Gesamtkunstwerk must involve various elements which "feed into each other", that alone doesn't qualify a work for the title. So your example of a novel in which style, characters, and story all feed into each other wouldn't be a Gesamtkunstwerk, merely a well constructed novel.
An interesting perspective. My feelings on the matter are mixed. On the one hand, I do agree that a television series with time to develop its narrative and themes will (all things being equal) probably outrank a three-minute video, even if the series does have a few more flaws (mistakes are harder to avoid in long-form storytelling, after all). On the other hand, I often find that length and quality/value do not always correlate. Shorter works can (when well-written) deliver a high concentration of ideas, where longer works are frequently compromised due to meandering plots and filler scenes that do not add very much to the overall product. *Steven Universe* episodes are only eleven minutes-long, but I often find that this works to their advantage, resulting in tightly-woven narratives where every second of screen time contributes something of value. I suppose the best works are those that hit the sweet spot of being just long enough to fully explore a range of themes and develop all of their concepts, while making sure that every moment conveys as much information as possible.
Excellent example in Steven Universe. Can't believe that didn't come to mind immediately. In fact, I'd say Steven Universe is a bit of a poster child for what Digi's talking about. It is flawed (the early episodes can be off-putting, and the filler bits stick out) and yet it's easily one of my favorite western works in years, just because of the fascinating mix of ideas on display and the quality with which those ideas are presented.
Just reinforcing this point: You could set a camera against a wall of gray paint drying, and it would be perfect in the sense that you note here, of being without flaws. Further, all the elements of the filmmaking -- the flat cinematography and the glacial pace, combined with the neutral color palette -- would all reinforce each other to evoke the desired emotion: boredom. It would be perfect to that end, but that doesn't make it good.
As I watch Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop back to back I think this idea is sort of why I like Champloo more. It's flawed and a bit more confused/less focused but that feeds back into the appeal of the show as a bildungsroman.
Very interesting video; I'll add my take on it: Having no flaws and being "perfect" isn't interesting on its own, but by first having lots of interesting ideas, and then ADDITIONALLY removing as many flaws as possible, the work would be improved. In that case, it's a matter of priorities: Perfection is a good thing to strive for, but it isn't the most important thing--interesting ideas are.
I don't know about perfection but I remember how strongly MrBtongue's video resonated with me back when I watched it still when it came out. I just do love works where everything ties into each other and fits together, in case of anime works where you'll have both a great narrative and visual direction which compliment certain themes. But I think you also mentioned one other important thing about how you didn't really think a lot about pendulum after having seen it. I actually avoid rating works until some time after I've seen them. To me the long term impact of them is important. After all you could have some thrilling action blockbuster and you just feel like calling it awesome and the best thing ever at the moment but then after you leave the cinema and ten minutes after or a week after you might never thing about it again or realize you don't feel anything towards it. While I would say that flaws can take away from a work, I would also say that you have to consider how high where its goals. It's like comparing a perfectly scored primary school math test with an 80% score in a complex analysis test in university. The first one is perfect but I'm sure as hell more impressed by the second. I also tend to think about how a work triggers me visually, emotionally and intellectually. Lots of people would call this pretentious but I find the third really important. It's because it's kind of what makes the work stick to you long after you've seen it as I mentioned in the first paragraph. To me it's not necessarily because the anime brings in new ideas, it can be just how layered and complex the show is. To take a known example, the message of Evangelion is pretty simple and probably something everyone would agree with it, but on top of that there's a whole complex narrative and lore which the viewer has to decipher and all the subtleties in the character relations that you can tie into the main themes of the story. It's what makes people talk about it years after the show has finished.
I think the issue is flawless is not the same thing as perfect. Flawless means there is nothing wrong with it while perfect means it can not get any better.
I enjoy to witness failure in anime/whatever because for me its a deep interest with the very concept. When things fail to come together, one could spot it and discuss how it could be better, hence the consumer can enrich their existing knowledge of the medium. Criticisms of the work can also be taken into account for by artists, so they'll strive to develop the medium into being one stop closer to this very elusive idea of "perfection". Though I feel perfection is never attainable, there is always an opportunity for something to grow into something "better", which is why I understand your stance on why perfection isn't too interesting; it leaves no avenues for improvement.
I don't know where it came from, but there's this annoying idea of poeple needing to have objective views of things, yet we all have different personalities and an objective view would just take those personalities away from us. If people would understand what this "objectiveness" is taking away and understand how important personal traits are, we wouldn't have the shitstorm of people arguing the way they do now.
I think this is really a problem of bottoms and ceilings. It's easier to make three flawless minutes than 12 flawless hours, and its easier to flawlessly explore a single, simple idea than multiple complex ideas. Thus, there is a skill ceiling for simple projects that's just naturally lower than for complex projects as there's only so much skill you have to put into a simple short until it becomes perfect compared to a 24 episode show. So if you rate something by the toal amount of skill and quality going into it, a longer and more complex project always has a higher potential for quality - but also for failure. By that metric it's probably fair to say that a very good but not flawless long and complex show is "better" than a flawless but very short and simple one.
I'm glad you brought this up. I've never seen Pendulum, but I always considered FMAB to be the anime that's come closest to perfect that I've seen. And I like FMAB, but it's not a 10/10 for me, it's not on my top 10 list, and it's because it has no noteworthy flaws, at least in my perception of the show. And that always kind of bored me, not the show itself that is a ton of fun to watch, but how it was perfect when compared to the shows I do consider my favorites. It was always like there was nothing in FMAB to latch onto specifically because everything served the perfect whole and it was impossible to for me to get super interested in any individual component of the show. I think what bothers me about FMAB and other gesamptkuntzwerken is that while they make for very impressive experiences they don't make very personal ones. It's hard to relate to something that's perfect when learning to understand our flaws is a big part of being human. Anyway, thanks for good video on an interesting topic.
I love you Digi but this is pretty dumb. There's a huge difference between technically perfect and perfect according to taste. It's a completely pointless term in regards to art and entertainment because there's no objective standard for what constitutes "perfection". I'd say though that it has almost nothing to do with the length or heights to which a thing aspires to or the number of ideas a story covers. There's really no comparison between Log Horizon and Pendulum other than the medium. They can both be "perfect" for totally different reasons
he defines the idea of perfection he's addressing by: works that have the best Gesamtkunstwerk, and arguing against it. He mentions that there are many other ideas of perfection that one may have at the beginning of the video, but that he's only talking about this one.
+rathkAliA When he's saying perfection is boring that doesn't really mean anything. So yes he's really just saying that this one type of thing people describe as perfect bores him but its not like everyone who's commenting on that same video is even using the word in the exact same way. His definition is fine but one persons narrow definition of a thing is kind of irrelevant when you're making a broad statement like that. I never heard an argument for why Pendulum doesn't meet his standard of Gesamtkunstwerk. He mostly talks about why long form stuff is more worthy of the title but like I said before theyre not comparable aside from the medium. You wouldn't compare a film that wins the Oscar for "Best Short Film" to the one that wins "Best Picture". It's apples and oranges. You might hold feature length films in a higher regard (most ppl do I'm sure) but that isn't an argument for why a short film is boring or isn't "perfect".
the title's are supposed to be clickbaity so that you watch the video, but it is still a valid interpretation of perfection that many people may hold. When you're writing a paper that mentions a broad concept, you often have to state the particular definition of the broad term you are going to use, you can't use all of them, that makes any statement within the paper you say have an infinite number of meanings, and makes it impossible for anything concrete to come out of it. also he's not saying that Pendulum doesn't meet the standards Gesamtkunstwerk, but rather that it does, and that even though it does, its not as interesting as something that doesn't meet said standards.
What I'm saying is if you wanna give evidence to a statement I don't think it's really valid to compare things that have totally different standards. To say a flawed movie is better than a perfect short film is fine but all that is a statement of on preferred format. Once a person starts damning the short film for being a short film it's kind of a superfluous conversation.
... And don't get me wrong. I agree with a lot of what you're saying but when we get into these kinds of conversations, arguments are very semantic and come down in a lot of ways to interpretation
Chocolat is this movie set in catholic, provincial France where the characters are always trying to be/ seem perfect. At the end of the movie the priest summarizes the lesson and says he thinks they've got to stop measuring goodness by counting how many times everyone fucks up. But instead to measure goodness by how much, well, good they do. I forget this lesson all the time so it's nice to hear it in this vlog. I see people talking about how perfection is a silly concept in art anyway, basically saying there is no true ranking. Okay, but if we're talking about people's MyAnimeLists and the methodology behind how we rank shows then I think this is a really great follow up to your "No one uses scores right" video. Because even though the ideas you're presenting are familiar, it really is so NOT how we do things right now. If we changed from- most people trying to create an objectively rated list of shows, scored individually, and by how few flaws they have, to- most people embracing their perspective, creating contextually ranked lists, based on how much they got out of the show, we'd really have a revolution on our hands.
First of all. You should consider what perfection, as a meaning, itself implies. If something is perfect, then literally everything concerning it would be perfect. There would be no subjectivity to it since everything about it is perfect. Nobody. *Nobody* can ever have any complaints about it since it's *perfect*. I hope I'm being clear about it. The idea, that something would be perfect would be perceived as perfect by everything that can understand the meaning and idea behind - first the work itself and then the concept of perfection. No room would be left for any other kind of thought. Now, considering this, there are no recorded nor likely events where anything is perfect due to there still being room for varying opinions about everything we know so far. That aside, if we aren't as strict with the meaning and give room for errors and not care for that it would be exactly every sentient being that can observe something and all agree that it is indeed a perfect piece, the points you bring out make sense and are reasonable. Thanks for tingling my small brain cells. :3
+skullfaceguy If something is flawless, it only has good aspects, no flaws. What more could you possibly ask for? Digi's argument doesn't even seem to be against perfection, but against shortness of media. If Gintama was without flaws, I doubt he would be here making this video about perfection being boring.
I think that using the words "perfect" or "flawless" to refer to the highest of art should be avoided, as they express an unfathomable state. The word "masterpiece" should be used instead - and even then, a masterpiece isn't a work of art with "no flaws", but perhaps one with minimum and/or charming flaws. And of course a masterpiece doesn't necessarily have to be something short and thematically broad like Pendulum. You can still create one while not taking the easy way.
“The perfect being, huh? There is no such thing as perfect in this world. That may sound cliché, but it’s the truth. The average person admires perfection and seeks to obtain it. But, what’s the point of achieving perfection? There is none. Nothing. Not a single thing. I loathe perfection! If something is perfect, then there is nothing left. There is no room for imagination. No place left for a person to gain additional knowledge or abilities. Do you know what that means? For scientists such as ourselves, perfection only brings despair. It is our job to create things more wonderful than anything before them, but never to obtain perfection. A scientist must be a person who finds ecstasy while suffering from that antimony. In short, the moment that foolishness left your mouth and reached my ears, you had already lost. Of course, that’s assuming you are a scientist” Bleach
" I mean, it's kinda like comparing a snack food to high-class dessert. You can just chomp away mindlessly at snacks, because that's how they're made. They're addictive by nature, they just make you reach for more, even if you don't really want more. But a high-class dessert takes some slowing down. It demands that you take a moment to really enjoy how complex and satisfying it is. In the end, you'll always think more highly of the high-class dessert because it gave you a feeling of true satisfaction. It's not designed to go on forever, it's designed to finish off a meal. Maybe it was so good you wanted more, but what you had was delicious, and you're glad you had it" *EGORAPTOR; Arin, 2011, Sequelitis - Castlevania 1 vs. Castlevania 2*
I would argue that every show has a goal, and shows can do a perfect job of achieving that goal, but if you like them or not ultimately is determined by whether or not you care about said goal. I can say pretty confidently that Shinsekai Yori is perfect. Everything about it serves to illustrate its point, and even the boringness of the characters is kind of neccesary to achieve its goal... and yet it's one of my lower 9/10s. On the other hand Code Geass is extraordinarily imperfect and flawed, could have achieved its goal better in innumerable ways, but I rate it higher because I'm more interested in its goal. As a final example, my sole 10/10 is the film Millennium Actress. I consider it to be perfect at achieving its goals, and I find everything that it was trying to do to be incredibly interesting. I guess what I'm trying to say is that perfection is really just another element that can feed into your rating, and is based on how you perceive what it is perfect at doing.
That'S why I love Arjuna so much. It has a lot of interesting ideas. It's far from a being a perfect product, but it's creative, unique and interesting. I'd like to hear you ramble a bit about it.
I've said before that Synecdoche, New York is "perfect" but Whiplash is better. I'm glad someone else gets that the idea of perfection in art is inherently silly.
For me a "perfect" show is the one that made you both feel strongly about something and think about it or any other subject that's important for you for a good while as long as making you want to come back to it at some point in future AND also it has nothing you'd consider a flaw and/or would want to remove from it or improve. For me there's only one show like that. Haibanne Remnei. It is perfect. A perfectly told story with strong atmosphere and actual meaning behind it. There are a few movies I'd consider perfect as well but I won't list them. So yeah I do think perfect pieces of art exist. They just have to be really well done and be relatable.
TheMcMemes It's pretty interesting too, got an exam on it in a week so that's all that's going to be buzzing around my head during half term. I would say though that it's true that maths gets more creative the higher level you get to.
I don't think those flaws in Log Horizon were required for it's 10/10 moments, but I never seen that show or Gintama so I donno. If I were to measure my interest for a show it'd be: how much variety it gives me ÷ stuff I find wrong with it. Gesamtkunstwerk(s?) can't ALL be simple.
I really liked that comment about "a million little perfections". This is why you're my favorite anime youtuber. You're analytical but you're not as interested in what's considered "the best" in a purely formal sense as some of your analytical peers. You're interested in exploration and idiosyncrasies like I am. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Perfection in the conventional sense is easy. It's also bland, static, and dry. It's been done a thousand times and I don't understand why so many people cheer when they see another iteration of something they've already seen too often. The most interesting thing about art to me is what happens when the rules of perfection get defied, when people are willing to make things that aren't safe or comfortably broad. Interesting art is always better than "good" art to me.
It sounds like it's less that you think that perfection is uninteresting but that perfection doesn't necessarily equal having no discernible flaws in the content presented. You also sound like you're saying the best show can be one with flaws, which is what I got out of your Log Horizon part. Given, I pretty much agree with all of this but I just wanted to reword your thesis statement a little bit.
For a while I've wondered how you consider Log Horizon a 10/10, despite it's many flaws. This really helped me understand how you conceptualize what a 10/10 should be. When you judge a series primarily on its strengths, particularly its ideas, I can better see why you would hold Log Horizon in such high regard.
What I got out of this (and completely agree with) is not so much that perfection isn't interesting, but that longer narratives are immensely more engaging than shorter ones, because they just provide so much more to delve into and think about. Sure you can come up with a short narrative and revise it to pieces until it is flawless because you have less to work with -- larger works present a significantly more daunting task when it comes time to revise. But in the end, I would take a flawed yet engaging long narrative over something short and revised to perfection any day, just because I love to dive deep and explore things in depth -- and I get the feeling you're more that sort of person too.
If say perfection is something everyone should strive for. Although it's impossible to be perfect due to limitations it's still extremely important to strive for it. To me protection is a lot I small things done right and balanced.
Makes me think of the difficulty points in competitions like gymnastics or diving. Flawlessly achieving something less difficult or less impressive can and should be seen as a lesser accomplishment than attempting something incredible and pulling it off, albeit with flaws along the way.
Hmm! That's an interesting position. It kind of helps me understand why I might like my favorite anime series so much... it's short and flawed, but every single thing it does, just about every single line in it, paints for me these fascinating strokes of the world details they aren't showing me. For a little nothing six-episode show, it's crammed with ideas that draw me into it. Made me think, for sure.
You are at what ep of gintama currently digi? Can you make a followup of this video by reviewing gintama(once you've catch up to it of course)? I think it would be great. Its a 10 in my book too for a long time and the latest season is even more amazing Also there arent many gintama review on youtube
This really seems like the distinction between prose and verse, but in video. Pendulum is the video equivalent of a good poem, but Log Horizon is the video equivalent of an interesting novel. When appreciating poetry the focus is generally more on the technical and emotional aspects, whereas novels focus more on narrative and character. I personally enjoy both, but I appreciate them as somewhat independent forms. I think the short form is best for technical demonstrations or really specific messages. To extend this metaphor outside of anime, I would say that shows like Adventure Time and Steven Universe are the Verse Novels or Epic Poetry of the animation world, and especially in Adventure Time you can see how the short form really excels at making really specific points and experimenting with new ideas.
The more I hear you mirror thoughts I've had over the years, the more I feel like we could have been best friends or maybe the same person xD I've stopped using the "less flaws = better" analogy of perfection a few years ago thanks to Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. Perfection to me means something entirely different because I have played that game. In my search for perfection, I now have ONE criteria, one mantra that drives my analysis, drives my own creative works: Everything must flow. The story must flow, the characters must flow, the scenario must flow. It all flows together to create one unanimous message or truth, whatever that may be. Before, I used to measure perfection in that straight forward, simplistic way of "less flaws = better game/movie/tv series" but if that were true, Phoenix Wright would be a 5/10 every single game but it's not. Not for me anyway. Those court room scenes are filled with "little ten moments" as you say, but to get that excellent pay off, you NEED the slow build up of the "boring" investigation parts. You absolutely need that juxtaposition. Can it be more interesting? I guess... should it? No! That conflicts so heavily with the central thrust of the game. The courtroom is the star and is supposed to be a gut punch roller coaster, car crashing good time, one dialogue box at a time and having any of that in the investigation absolutely takes away from the special adrenaline pumping thrill ride that is the courtroom. It feels less special. That level of heightened design philosophy completely hollowed me out as a person and I had to start over. I couldn't trust my mind any more. How could this be?! Why is a game purposely designed to have one have be objectively less interesting to play but I LOVE the game more for it... Slowly, I had to reforge my mental processes and slow I began to change as a person, and no, that is not hyperbole, Phoenix Wright, the game that some people would laugh at you for even calling a game and not just a glorified visual novel, changed me on such a fundamental level and ultimately, THAT is perfection. I don't think anyone can set out with a goal to "be perfect" or revolutionary. If you do, 9 times out of 10, you will fail. You have to know what you are and be the best damn version of that and use your 6/10 moments to propel your 10/10 moments and that to me, is perfection. I think it is a misnomer to say perfection isn't interesting, I think it is the most interesting because everything is flawed, so to be perfect, you have to know how to use what can be considered flaws and deliver the best version of yourself.
So I just watched Pendulum, it was really great, and I would understand someone giving it a 10, but does that really mean as much as giving a show that's many times longer, a 10? when a show has so many opportunities to ruin the experience, just because it's so much longer, and it is still so good that you can give it a 10, that's pretty damned amazing. though tbh, I can hardly think of anything that's on the extremely long side of things, like 100 episodes and up, that don't suffer for it, and the ones I can have enough differences along the way to stop it from being just one continual flow of the same. I can easily give something that I see as flawed a 10, as long as the really good parts make up for it and some. I can even imagine flaws that could make a show better, if the "flaws" make the real parts of the show stick out, it could even be better than a flawless masterpiece; though at that point it is no longer truly a flaw. But I can say the same in the other direction, Pendulum was great, but it is way too short for me to give it any score at all. I just couldn't confidently give it a score and be happy with it, maybe if I thought about it for a long time, or rewatch the thing multiple times, but I don't wan't to put that kind of effort just to score the thing. And I must agree, I don't think I'll ever really think about Pendulum ever again. this was a mess... oh well, its 2:48 am, and I have wasted way too much time on writing this damned thing.
I don't think that Pendulum was just telling a short sad emotional story, it seemed more like a reflection on human mortality(memento mori) and the passage of time(thats why they used that pendulum motive), kind of like your last rap song.In a way its length actually makes it more impressive since it accomplishes so much in such a small length.1 of the reasons people consider something a masterpiece is standing the test of time and the reason why some good works do that and some don't is that the works that do stand the test of time have themes and motives that are universal.stuff like log horizon, in a world in which MMORPGs are no longer popular wont be nearly as liked, but stuff like Pendulum could always be liked since its themes are as i said universal( even the Epic of Gilgamesh had the same themes).
Although I completely agree with you on the concept that something can be a 10/10 if it has *so much good* that the bad isn't frustrating anymore. Gurren Lagann is far and away my favorite anime, but it still has some bad elements and ideas. However, I think there are also shows that are "perfect" by this definition, that also have tons of great ideas. FLCL and Revolutionary Girl Utena are great examples, two of my top 5 favorite anime, and I don't know how you feel now, as you haven't re-watched them in years, but I know you used to really love those shows as well.
But thats kinda a weird viewpoint as well because then any long running shounen is automatically better then any other shorter incredible show in that regard because it will inevitably have a lot more cooler moments in it in the long run then what something like FMA has too offer. Even though I would consider FMA brotherhood to be waaaaaaay better then one piece, I ultimately had waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more fun with one piece and I care for the characters a lot more then in other shows I've seen. But then what makes something of similar length to one piece any better or worst then one piece if it covers the same amount of cool things and ideas? I think it has to do with consistency and how much you love those specific characters over others from a different series. So I think it feeds back into the idea that opinions and ratings for shows should be SUBJECTIVE!
That's not true at all. Long running doesn't mean better, more complex/developed/&c. means better. Something that's a constant shade of shit won't be better than something that's a constant shade of rainbow, or whatever.
Fabulous Knight exactly thats why I said it was a weird viewpoint saying having the most good there is in a show means its a 10 out of 10. like one piece is not in my top 10 at all
TheDeadb3ar You wouldn't say that the anime that is most good should be the better one? The point wasn't that the longer it is, the better. It was that the better it was, the better. And that better doesn't mean "cut down into a perfect bitesize chunk", it means "able to explore or develop more themes/interesting ideas". I do agree that that thinking is flawed -- but not for the reasons you think it is.
I think you're misunderstanding Digi. It seems like you agree from my perspective. His actual criticism of pendulum isn't that its too short, but that, BECAUSE it is so short, it lacks any real depth or idea that something in a longer form can portray. There's tons and tons of brilliant 3 minute shorts that all basically play out just like pendulum. The problem with 3 minutes as a time limit for storytelling, is you basically have to pick 1 concept and play it out, and it makes for a very shallow, albeit often emotional, journey.
Can anyone help point me to where I can find "pendulum"? I tried to find it on CZcams with no luck and I'm pretty curious to see what all the hubbub is about
Yeah, basically how good thing is more of a sum of it's good sides then "10 minus flaws". It's a better measure of how interesting something is. Perfect example is - when you trying to sell someone on something (anime/movie/game/etc) - you usually describe what is interesting about this thing, not how little flaws it have. It have to be interesting in the first place for you to even pay attention to it and start counting downsides.
What you consider not interesting isn't describing perfection. What you're representing with pendulum is actually flawlessness, not perfection. Also pendulum best deck.
It sounds like it isn't about perfection at all. You weren't saying that other things are more interesting or better because they have flaws, you said they are better because they have more good. One great thing is not as good as many great things. If Gintama lacked any perceivable flaws, then it would be the greatest thing ever, unless a show came out that had even more going on in it.
Couldn't something be perfect because it is interesting? If something isn't interesting doesn't that make it imperfect? Perfection is literally the state of being impossible to be improved upon, so a flawless, yet not interesting show would not be perfect because it could still be improved.
So, perfection depends a lot on the time and how it is managed? I say no. Every show, regardless of the time, can be as deep as anything else. You just need the light of a good director. Look at Hosoda and his films. Or Ghost in the Shell, or Angel's Egg. Even a short movie of 3 minutes can have ideas that don't need to be generic or basic. You only need geniality.
There is significant value to density of quality, but that does not mean that maximum density is always the best. For any normal anime, maintaining the pure cohesiveness of a three min clip is likely to overwhelm and push away audiences. Thus, for good pacing, and to give your audience time to think, a 10/10 will add some irrelevant details, side quests, diversions, and so on. However, they can still serve some small purpose (show a character in a slightly new light, show some small part of the world you haven't seen) and serve the greater purpose of good pacing.
You've used slightly different phrasing than I'm going to so this may end up either being the same thing you said or a slightly different point, but I've always been bothered by something similar to this (or--again--possibly the same thing). But, I've never understood this fixation the anime community in particular seems to have on evaluating a work's quality in terms of its flaws or lack thereof. Like, just because a work has no flaws doesn't mean it actually has anything in it to make it worthwhile, and also inversely just because a work is flawed doesn't mean it also can't have a lot of good things in it which make it worth watching. The example I'm going to use here (which I don't anticipate you will agree with) is Guilty Crown, which is filled with things I'd consider flaws--the story makes no sense and makes things up on the spot repeatedly, the characters do stupid things that can appear to be inconsistent, etc. But, despite all that Guilty Crown is one of my favorite anime anyways. It has absolutely phenomenal production values and directing which make it constantly enjoyable and suspenseful to watch, and it's got enough emotional moments that through the skilled directing and such can still be satisfying despite the fact that how the story got to this point can be somewhat questionable. And then you can compare this to something like Black Lagoon, a similar-ish show that I also like a lot and has comparatively little in the way of flaws, but ultimately it just doesn't have as much going for it imo such that I got much more out of my time watching Guilty Crown anyways. Anyways, rant over. I just wanted to complain about something also I guess.
I can't put it perfectly into words because I'm not an expert in aesthetic philosophy, but I think there's actually quite an interesting and deep philosophical divide between the reasoning between Digi giving LH 10/10 and Demo giving Pendulum 10/10. Certainly I think there's room to both appreciate a well crafted short experience, and a sprawling, inventive, but less refined one. It's like the difference between a really interesting indie game you finish
On a 10-point scale, then a 10/10 is simply in the top 10%, assuming there's no way to get a 0. On a 5-point scale it goes by 20% margins, etc. The highest score doesn't mean perfect, it simply means better than the vast majority of everything else.
10/10 perfect oppinion. First oppinion i gave 10/10 i just couldnt find any flaws in this. I mean they are other oppinions that have like a strong 9... but this was just perfect.
While the notion of perfection itself is supremely subjective, I find myself somewhere in-between the two stances presented in this video. The only anime I consider to be perfect is Baccano. The reason behind this is because it did have a lot of cool, fun, and unique concepts in it, and I think they were all executed to perfection. I have not found a single fault in my many viewings, and in fact just come to appreciate it more with every watch. But even with that title as perfect, I don't consider it to be my favorite anime. I have not seen the topical short-film in question, but I doubt I would view it as perfect as a "flaw" is such a subjective notion. It sounds very reminiscent of some of the early scenes in the movie UP, but I wouldn't view those scenes alone as being perfect for a number of reasons. I also consider the length and narrative to be a crutch. It's easy to pull such a common and well known story out of real life and lay it out in quick succession. I'm not saying I could put together the technical elements, but from my own life I could quickly relate a story about a guy that lost his wife to cancer. If you take that same idea and show it in greater detail and length flaws may be brought to light.
in the case of the short film, i feel that, at least in the way you describe it, it does one thing perfectly, and that is it's goal. if an emotional reaction is what someone values in a work, then, in that regard, it should be perfect to them. like you, I'd would also say i value the ability of a work to convey an idea more than it's ability to convey emotion, but that just means it not my thing and from what you said it seems like the short film, just wasn't your thing. I also think it has to do with the bang for your buck. I guess you could say that pendulum delivers the greatest payoff that three minutes of time spent watching it can deliver. But that's just me being needlessly argumentative.
If there are no flaws but there's nothing noteworthy about it either it ends up with a maximum 5/10 for me, and my enjoyment ends up gauging how much lower does it go. Although I may score shows that do nothing higher than shows that are absolutely appaling, it's those shows that actually do something that I watch to the end, or even finish.
Isn't it up to what a person values? I know people who don't care about ideas at all. Alot of people I know just care about what emotional response a work of art is able to create for them. I've heard the argument "it's a masterpiece because it made me so sad/happy" plenty of times *Cough* Clannad After Story *cough*.
Videos I put actual effort into apparently aren't interesting either. My most viewed video is just a guile's theme audioswap and none of my other videos come even close to its viewcount and more often than not my videos with less effort put in get more views.
Everyone has their own criteria of a 10/10, but 'not being able to find flaws' certainly isn't one of them. What's interesting to me is that many people personally rate shows based on how they got rated in school. Two reasons: - Many people only use the 6-10 part of the 1-10 rating scale. Anything below a 6 is 'not passable' like the school system, meaning that the 6 is the lowest grade you HAVE to achieve in school. - A 10 is incredibly hard to achieve and needs your work to be perfect, like in school. The huge difference is of course that most of the tests you do can be objectively measured. Every answer has a right one, and if you give all the right answers, you get a 10. One mistake and that 10 is gone. With interpreting art, that doesn't hold up. I have my own criteria for a 10/10, and one of them is rewatchability. Something has to be so amazing, in any way, that I can and want to rewatch it later and still love it just as much. This can be because the complexity of the show allows me to discover more details, or just because the show holds up in whatever way. But those works are never perfect.
Totally off topic and into a completely different media outlet but this is how I feel about superman and the superman comics. I hate him because he isn't flawed. He's the perfect hero with only one weakness and hundreds of powers.
I hold value to the ideal and concept of perfection, but I would say that, if creating a flawless work or searching for one such work is your aim, then you are missing the point of whatever medium you're searching through. Instead of the notion that something must be flawless to be perfect, I'd much rather countenance the notion that something should be worth considering a 10/10, or perfect, if it can carry itself with a great level of competence in spite of its flaws. In terms of anime, Code Geass and Log Horizon reach this threshold for me, more so their first season than their second.
when one defines perfection as an absence of flaws then it would makes sense why you would think that to be boring. also I think an equivalent word for that German one would be synergy.
So basically, you are saying that good shows are defined by having a lot of good moments, not be a lack of bad moments.
"Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"...True perfection is literal nothingness, because when you never try, you can never fail, and there will be no faults for "reviewers" to "take points away" for. And that is fucking boring as hell... which is kind of a flaw if you think about it. [/metaphysical wankery]
Maybe the real point is that points are pointless, especially the "deduction style" grading system. Maybe we should just stop taking ratings that seriously all together... to quote Yahtzee, "I don't believe in scores because I don't believe a complex opinion can be represented numerically. You like numbers? How about four, as in fourk you"
my ass is perfect
Sorry my ass is perfect
Yes but how many IDEAS does it have?
I talk out of my ass a lot, so I guess it's got a few ideas.
Proof?
YoRHa 2B yes
I think you meant "Perfection is overrated"
So what you're saying is, for a lot of people, a show starts as a 10/10 and drops from there as flaws accumulate? That sounds about right.
For me, all shows start as a 5/10 or 6/10, and can go up or down based on things I like and things I don't. So technically, if I end up rating something a 4/10, it's not awful, it's just a little under its starting point. Likewise, a story with "no flaws" would guarantee a 5 at minimum on my scale. But it wouldn't guarantee a 10. I would gladly rate a show with more flaws higher if it does a bunch of things that the "perfect" show never got close to doing. What guarentees shows on my scale higher scores is not perfection, but "value." If I get more out of a show, it it causes me to think more, if it causes me to see something I didn't see before, that's what gets it points. Sure, flaws can make it fall, but it can still get above a five if I value it higher than a five despite that.
My least favorite kind of show isn't a show littered with flaws. It's a show that does nothing for me. Subtract nothing from zero and you still get zero. Subtract a little bit and add a lot, and you have yourself a positive number.
I see you're putting double spaces after the dot 👏👏
"Perfection is relative. Completely subjective." - Demolition D
Papa Demo tells no lies.
Yes. And?
Perfection can't be subjective. That's just ironic. It can't be applied to anime, since anime is subjective.
Objective perfection can't exist in a subjective medium like art. Really any video addressing it is missing the point. Calling any art "perfect" is always something that should be taken with a grain of salt.
+Bamoo The Elephant A guy says Cowboy Bebop is perfect. The cartoon has no flaws in his opinion. Another guy comes in and says Cowboy Bebop is a piece of shit. Perfection when applied to art is Subjective.
I feel like a classic quote from the famous Anna Karenina applies to this video very well. "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way". I would rather see something fail in a spectacularly entertaining way than succeed in a mediocre way.
I truly think the best way to define a 10/10 is anything you think is better than 90% of the other stuff you engaged with. It’s not as romantic or epic as the idea of something so transcendently good that it reaches a point of perfection but honestly there’s just so much more utility in knowing what someone thinks is better than 90% of the other stuff they’ve seen/read/what ever. Like that really means something tangible and imo more important.
An interesting perspective and I do agree with you about short films being broader in their themes and experiences but I feel like your comparison regarding a short film to 2 season anime is a tad unfair. Both short films and long form media are trying to illicit an emotional response from an audience but obviously short films are going to be at a supreme disadvantage as a result of having 1/1000 of the time available to connect with that same audience. I mean when you have hours to world-build and explain the motivations and backstories of all of the characters then obviously the payoffs are going to have more impact.
A cupcake is a sweet treat with almost universal appeal that lasts you a few minutes and then is gone, while a full 3-course meal will have a variety of flavors (some of which you like more than others) and might last you about an hour. Both ultimately serve the same purpose (to satisfy a craving) but one is obviously more filling.
That's kinda my point. I think it's weird to rate the cupcake above the 3-course meal, even if the cupcake is perfect.
I guess in this analogy, a bad monotonous anime would be the equivalent of a meal consisting entirely of cupcakes.
I kinda want a cupcake now...
So really what you are saying is excellence is scalable (or lack there of). If anything, shouldn't a greater perfection should be sought after once you have mastered something more rudimentary. Also, while perceivable perfection may seem menial, like (due to it's meticulous construction) the 3 minute video was sad, aren't the greatest perfections just that de facto at first glance as well, like E=mc^2 or the fact me and you can exist in this place called the universe (because of the big bang and every variable coming into play henceforth)? Or in other words to steal 2 different people's ideas at the same time, "any intelligent fool can make things more complex, and bigger, but it takes a touch of genius to make something as simple as possible, but no simpler."
A question has occurred to me since last night: Who exactly is comparing "perfect" short films to "imperfect" anime shows? And why?
I have only ever found myself comparing short films to other short films because like with my cupcake analogy, it's bizarre to me to be comparing the two in the first place. If you (or anyone else for that matter) have an example of someone doing this then I'd have a better understanding of where you're coming from as I do not frequent sites like myanimelist and such. I can only speak for myself, but I tend to go even farther with the compartmentalization of my favorites list insomuch as I only compare shows of matching genres and formats because each genre has different goals they are trying to achieve and my opinion of them is based upon how well they achieve those goals.
For example: I do not watch a ton of romance animes but Toradora is one of my all time favorites in that genre, however it doesn't hold a candle to TTGL because Mecha Action series are among one of my favorite genres. But for me to compare the two is absurd because they are trying to accomplish completely different things. I went off on a tangent a bit but it got me thinking about why things are compared relative to each other so often based upon nothing other than a score.
I believe this whole video is pointless because scores are already terrible. Giving a 3 minute short a 10/10 is completely different from giving a 500 episode show a 10/10. Numerical scoring shouldn't ever be taken taken as a serious indication of worth.
I agree, but I think if you expanded it to include similar comparisons it is a good point. Something that plays it safe with no glaring flaws isn't as good as something that might lack in some areas but goes above and beyond in others
or at least it isn't better than it
you might think it's pointless, but a lot of people for some reason believe that media can be objectively judged as a whole.
It's all about perspective, really.
You can judge an animated short as a short or as an animation and both judgements can vary when comparing to other shorts or animations.
You can only judge something objectively when you set some kind of rules first to have something you can base your judgement on.
So paradoxically, no objective judgement is fully objective because you can have many different scores for the same thing and some pros can become cons in other analysis based on what rules you judge it.
There are a lot of rules in life that start breaking under their own weight when you take a closer look at them and the ideas of perfection and objectivity are some of them.
Number scoring is ridiculous because it is really only for sell things. It is for capitalism, that is the only reason. I don't care about that. Tell me why you like it.
"Mankind cannot endure perfection; it stifles him" - Robertson Davies
Definitely feel the same way. The more that I study art the more that I appreciate art that doesn't try to hide it's flaws. This is why I really like characters in media that are deeply flawed, it makes them far more relatable.
Being forgettable, or lacking a greater sense of complexity and depth can be a flaw in itself.
However I would't say flawlessness defines perfection anyways.
That term is far too subjective and emotionally driven.
To me a 10/10 is simply something, that I've enjoyed a lot overall.
'looks at Digibro'
Digi seems to have joined ZZ Top.
"Perfection" is one of those words that says less about the thing you're describing and more about what your standards/evaluative criteria are at the time (at least in terms of art critique). For things like recreational shows it seems to often be used as "I had a very pleasurable experience watching that show" and since your experience depends in part on your mental & emotional state at the time of viewing, it should be taken with a grain of salt when someone describes a show (or song/movie/game, etc.) as "perfect".
Good point.
Perfection is more about an abundance of good things than a lack of bad ones, in entertainment.
Perfection is a scientist's worst nightmare.
and a factoid untill proven otherwise
For me the quality of something is tied directly to how much I keep thinking about the themes after having seen it.
This calls for another question : Why would you rate a 3 minute short on the same basis as a full-fledged series ? Why not rate the 3 minute short in comparison to other 3 minute shorts. That's why I usually don't rate AMV, OVAs, Specials, etc...
Does this idea of perfection not take into account people's tastes? Or does it just dismiss them by saying that if someone doesn't like a "perfect" thing, it's because they have bad taste? Would a perfect thing, by definition, not appeal to everyone despite their taste? What value could I find in something supposedly perfect if I don't perceive it as interesting or entertaining?
A Gesamtkunstwerk combines multiple mediums into a single work. The term was codified by Wagner, whose operas combined poetry, music, painting of backdrops, etc. Modern examples which come to mind are movies and TV. While a good Gesamtkunstwerk must involve various elements which "feed into each other", that alone doesn't qualify a work for the title. So your example of a novel in which style, characters, and story all feed into each other wouldn't be a Gesamtkunstwerk, merely a well constructed novel.
An interesting perspective. My feelings on the matter are mixed. On the one hand, I do agree that a television series with time to develop its narrative and themes will (all things being equal) probably outrank a three-minute video, even if the series does have a few more flaws (mistakes are harder to avoid in long-form storytelling, after all).
On the other hand, I often find that length and quality/value do not always correlate. Shorter works can (when well-written) deliver a high concentration of ideas, where longer works are frequently compromised due to meandering plots and filler scenes that do not add very much to the overall product. *Steven Universe* episodes are only eleven minutes-long, but I often find that this works to their advantage, resulting in tightly-woven narratives where every second of screen time contributes something of value.
I suppose the best works are those that hit the sweet spot of being just long enough to fully explore a range of themes and develop all of their concepts, while making sure that every moment conveys as much information as possible.
Excellent example in Steven Universe. Can't believe that didn't come to mind immediately. In fact, I'd say Steven Universe is a bit of a poster child for what Digi's talking about.
It is flawed (the early episodes can be off-putting, and the filler bits stick out) and yet it's easily one of my favorite western works in years, just because of the fascinating mix of ideas on display and the quality with which those ideas are presented.
Just reinforcing this point: You could set a camera against a wall of gray paint drying, and it would be perfect in the sense that you note here, of being without flaws. Further, all the elements of the filmmaking -- the flat cinematography and the glacial pace, combined with the neutral color palette -- would all reinforce each other to evoke the desired emotion: boredom.
It would be perfect to that end, but that doesn't make it good.
As I watch Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop back to back I think this idea is sort of why I like Champloo more. It's flawed and a bit more confused/less focused but that feeds back into the appeal of the show as a bildungsroman.
Very interesting video; I'll add my take on it:
Having no flaws and being "perfect" isn't interesting on its own, but by first having lots of interesting ideas, and then ADDITIONALLY removing as many flaws as possible, the work would be improved.
In that case, it's a matter of priorities: Perfection is a good thing to strive for, but it isn't the most important thing--interesting ideas are.
I don't know about perfection but I remember how strongly MrBtongue's video resonated with me back when I watched it still when it came out. I just do love works where everything ties into each other and fits together, in case of anime works where you'll have both a great narrative and visual direction which compliment certain themes. But I think you also mentioned one other important thing about how you didn't really think a lot about pendulum after having seen it. I actually avoid rating works until some time after I've seen them. To me the long term impact of them is important. After all you could have some thrilling action blockbuster and you just feel like calling it awesome and the best thing ever at the moment but then after you leave the cinema and ten minutes after or a week after you might never thing about it again or realize you don't feel anything towards it.
While I would say that flaws can take away from a work, I would also say that you have to consider how high where its goals. It's like comparing a perfectly scored primary school math test with an 80% score in a complex analysis test in university. The first one is perfect but I'm sure as hell more impressed by the second.
I also tend to think about how a work triggers me visually, emotionally and intellectually. Lots of people would call this pretentious but I find the third really important. It's because it's kind of what makes the work stick to you long after you've seen it as I mentioned in the first paragraph. To me it's not necessarily because the anime brings in new ideas, it can be just how layered and complex the show is. To take a known example, the message of Evangelion is pretty simple and probably something everyone would agree with it, but on top of that there's a whole complex narrative and lore which the viewer has to decipher and all the subtleties in the character relations that you can tie into the main themes of the story. It's what makes people talk about it years after the show has finished.
The amount of stuff the work gets right is what counts. Next to no flaws is a bonus
I think the issue is flawless is not the same thing as perfect. Flawless means there is nothing wrong with it while perfect means it can not get any better.
I enjoy to witness failure in anime/whatever because for me its a deep interest with the very concept. When things fail to come together, one could spot it and discuss how it could be better, hence the consumer can enrich their existing knowledge of the medium. Criticisms of the work can also be taken into account for by artists, so they'll strive to develop the medium into being one stop closer to this very elusive idea of "perfection". Though I feel perfection is never attainable, there is always an opportunity for something to grow into something "better", which is why I understand your stance on why perfection isn't too interesting; it leaves no avenues for improvement.
'Just be sad' hey that's what I got out of Evangelion
Glad to see a CZcamsr shout out mr.btongue, he's severely slept on
I don't know where it came from, but there's this annoying idea of poeple needing to have objective views of things, yet we all have different personalities and an objective view would just take those personalities away from us. If people would understand what this "objectiveness" is taking away and understand how important personal traits are, we wouldn't have the shitstorm of people arguing the way they do now.
As a german you saying "Gesamtkunstwerk" made my day
I think this is really a problem of bottoms and ceilings. It's easier to make three flawless minutes than 12 flawless hours, and its easier to flawlessly explore a single, simple idea than multiple complex ideas. Thus, there is a skill ceiling for simple projects that's just naturally lower than for complex projects as there's only so much skill you have to put into a simple short until it becomes perfect compared to a 24 episode show. So if you rate something by the toal amount of skill and quality going into it, a longer and more complex project always has a higher potential for quality - but also for failure. By that metric it's probably fair to say that a very good but not flawless long and complex show is "better" than a flawless but very short and simple one.
I'm glad you brought this up. I've never seen Pendulum, but I always considered FMAB to be the anime that's come closest to perfect that I've seen. And I like FMAB, but it's not a 10/10 for me, it's not on my top 10 list, and it's because it has no noteworthy flaws, at least in my perception of the show. And that always kind of bored me, not the show itself that is a ton of fun to watch, but how it was perfect when compared to the shows I do consider my favorites. It was always like there was nothing in FMAB to latch onto specifically because everything served the perfect whole and it was impossible to for me to get super interested in any individual component of the show. I think what bothers me about FMAB and other gesamptkuntzwerken is that while they make for very impressive experiences they don't make very personal ones. It's hard to relate to something that's perfect when learning to understand our flaws is a big part of being human. Anyway, thanks for good video on an interesting topic.
I love you Digi but this is pretty dumb. There's a huge difference between technically perfect and perfect according to taste. It's a completely pointless term in regards to art and entertainment because there's no objective standard for what constitutes "perfection". I'd say though that it has almost nothing to do with the length or heights to which a thing aspires to or the number of ideas a story covers. There's really no comparison between Log Horizon and Pendulum other than the medium. They can both be "perfect" for totally different reasons
he defines the idea of perfection he's addressing by: works that have the best Gesamtkunstwerk, and arguing against it. He mentions that there are many other ideas of perfection that one may have at the beginning of the video, but that he's only talking about this one.
+rathkAliA When he's saying perfection is boring that doesn't really mean anything. So yes he's really just saying that this one type of thing people describe as perfect bores him but its not like everyone who's commenting on that same video is even using the word in the exact same way. His definition is fine but one persons narrow definition of a thing is kind of irrelevant when you're making a broad statement like that. I never heard an argument for why Pendulum doesn't meet his standard of Gesamtkunstwerk. He mostly talks about why long form stuff is more worthy of the title but like I said before theyre not comparable aside from the medium. You wouldn't compare a film that wins the Oscar for "Best Short Film" to the one that wins "Best Picture". It's apples and oranges. You might hold feature length films in a higher regard (most ppl do I'm sure) but that isn't an argument for why a short film is boring or isn't "perfect".
the title's are supposed to be clickbaity so that you watch the video, but it is still a valid interpretation of perfection that many people may hold. When you're writing a paper that mentions a broad concept, you often have to state the particular definition of the broad term you are going to use, you can't use all of them, that makes any statement within the paper you say have an infinite number of meanings, and makes it impossible for anything concrete to come out of it.
also he's not saying that Pendulum doesn't meet the standards Gesamtkunstwerk, but rather that it does, and that even though it does, its not as interesting as something that doesn't meet said standards.
What I'm saying is if you wanna give evidence to a statement I don't think it's really valid to compare things that have totally different standards. To say a flawed movie is better than a perfect short film is fine but all that is a statement of on preferred format. Once a person starts damning the short film for being a short film it's kind of a superfluous conversation.
... And don't get me wrong. I agree with a lot of what you're saying but when we get into these kinds of conversations, arguments are very semantic and come down in a lot of ways to interpretation
Chocolat is this movie set in catholic, provincial France where the characters are always trying to be/ seem perfect. At the end of the movie the priest summarizes the lesson and says he thinks they've got to stop measuring goodness by counting how many times everyone fucks up. But instead to measure goodness by how much, well, good they do. I forget this lesson all the time so it's nice to hear it in this vlog. I see people talking about how perfection is a silly concept in art anyway, basically saying there is no true ranking. Okay, but if we're talking about people's MyAnimeLists and the methodology behind how we rank shows then I think this is a really great follow up to your "No one uses scores right" video. Because even though the ideas you're presenting are familiar, it really is so NOT how we do things right now. If we changed from- most people trying to create an objectively rated list of shows, scored individually, and by how few flaws they have, to- most people embracing their perspective, creating contextually ranked lists, based on how much they got out of the show, we'd really have a revolution on our hands.
First of all. You should consider what perfection, as a meaning, itself implies. If something is perfect, then literally everything concerning it would be perfect. There would be no subjectivity to it since everything about it is perfect. Nobody. *Nobody* can ever have any complaints about it since it's *perfect*. I hope I'm being clear about it. The idea, that something would be perfect would be perceived as perfect by everything that can understand the meaning and idea behind - first the work itself and then the concept of perfection. No room would be left for any other kind of thought. Now, considering this, there are no recorded nor likely events where anything is perfect due to there still being room for varying opinions about everything we know so far.
That aside, if we aren't as strict with the meaning and give room for errors and not care for that it would be exactly every sentient being that can observe something and all agree that it is indeed a perfect piece, the points you bring out make sense and are reasonable.
Thanks for tingling my small brain cells. :3
I don't think flawless is perfect...
What do think the word "perfect" means?
it doesn't take much to get a flawless shit...
There is a very low requirements for shit to be flawless...
Would you call flawless shit perfect?
+skullfaceguy...yes. Ipso facto, if something is flawless, it is perfect. Please define perfection if you have a different definition.
Well I just think something needs more than lack of flaws to be perfect...
+skullfaceguy If something is flawless, it only has good aspects, no flaws. What more could you possibly ask for? Digi's argument doesn't even seem to be against perfection, but against shortness of media. If Gintama was without flaws, I doubt he would be here making this video about perfection being boring.
I think that using the words "perfect" or "flawless" to refer to the highest of art should be avoided, as they express an unfathomable state. The word "masterpiece" should be used instead - and even then, a masterpiece isn't a work of art with "no flaws", but perhaps one with minimum and/or charming flaws.
And of course a masterpiece doesn't necessarily have to be something short and thematically broad like Pendulum. You can still create one while not taking the easy way.
“The perfect being, huh? There is no such thing as perfect in this world. That may sound cliché, but it’s the truth. The average person admires perfection and seeks to obtain it. But, what’s the point of achieving perfection? There is none. Nothing. Not a single thing. I loathe perfection! If something is perfect, then there is nothing left. There is no room for imagination. No place left for a person to gain additional knowledge or abilities. Do you know what that means? For scientists such as ourselves, perfection only brings despair. It is our job to create things more wonderful than anything before them, but never to obtain perfection. A scientist must be a person who finds ecstasy while suffering from that antimony. In short, the moment that foolishness left your mouth and reached my ears, you had already lost. Of course, that’s assuming you are a scientist” Bleach
I agree. As i like to say every masterpiece is a 10/10, but not every 10/10 is a masterpiece. Nothing is flawless.
" I mean, it's kinda like comparing a snack food to high-class dessert. You can just chomp away mindlessly at snacks, because that's how they're made. They're addictive by nature, they just make you reach for more, even if you don't really want more. But a high-class dessert takes some slowing down. It demands that you take a moment to really enjoy how complex and satisfying it is. In the end, you'll always think more highly of the high-class dessert because it gave you a feeling of true satisfaction. It's not designed to go on forever, it's designed to finish off a meal. Maybe it was so good you wanted more, but what you had was delicious, and you're glad you had it"
*EGORAPTOR; Arin, 2011, Sequelitis - Castlevania 1 vs. Castlevania 2*
I would argue that every show has a goal, and shows can do a perfect job of achieving that goal, but if you like them or not ultimately is determined by whether or not you care about said goal. I can say pretty confidently that Shinsekai Yori is perfect. Everything about it serves to illustrate its point, and even the boringness of the characters is kind of neccesary to achieve its goal... and yet it's one of my lower 9/10s. On the other hand Code Geass is extraordinarily imperfect and flawed, could have achieved its goal better in innumerable ways, but I rate it higher because I'm more interested in its goal. As a final example, my sole 10/10 is the film Millennium Actress. I consider it to be perfect at achieving its goals, and I find everything that it was trying to do to be incredibly interesting. I guess what I'm trying to say is that perfection is really just another element that can feed into your rating, and is based on how you perceive what it is perfect at doing.
That'S why I love Arjuna so much. It has a lot of interesting ideas. It's far from a being a perfect product, but it's creative, unique and interesting. I'd like to hear you ramble a bit about it.
I've said before that Synecdoche, New York is "perfect" but Whiplash is better. I'm glad someone else gets that the idea of perfection in art is inherently silly.
For me a "perfect" show is the one that made you both feel strongly about something and think about it or any other subject that's important for you for a good while as long as making you want to come back to it at some point in future AND also it has nothing you'd consider a flaw and/or would want to remove from it or improve.
For me there's only one show like that. Haibanne Remnei. It is perfect. A perfectly told story with strong atmosphere and actual meaning behind it.
There are a few movies I'd consider perfect as well but I won't list them.
So yeah I do think perfect pieces of art exist. They just have to be really well done and be relatable.
Math is perfect.
*maths ;)
mathematics* if you wanna be technical about it
Not really. Read the comic Logicomix. It's about the subjectivity of mathematics and it's cool as shit.
Statistics is considred math but it has a lot to do with stuff which isnt just raw numbers.
TheMcMemes It's pretty interesting too, got an exam on it in a week so that's all that's going to be buzzing around my head during half term. I would say though that it's true that maths gets more creative the higher level you get to.
I don't think those flaws in Log Horizon were required for it's 10/10 moments, but I never seen that show or Gintama so I donno. If I were to measure my interest for a show it'd be: how much variety it gives me ÷ stuff I find wrong with it. Gesamtkunstwerk(s?) can't ALL be simple.
I was gonna comment about Gintama being a 10 in my book but glad to see you share the same sentiment~
I really liked that comment about "a million little perfections". This is why you're my favorite anime youtuber. You're analytical but you're not as interested in what's considered "the best" in a purely formal sense as some of your analytical peers. You're interested in exploration and idiosyncrasies like I am. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Perfection in the conventional sense is easy. It's also bland, static, and dry. It's been done a thousand times and I don't understand why so many people cheer when they see another iteration of something they've already seen too often. The most interesting thing about art to me is what happens when the rules of perfection get defied, when people are willing to make things that aren't safe or comfortably broad. Interesting art is always better than "good" art to me.
Nothing is perfect because perfection is in itself an imperfection
You've got me sold on that position.
It sounds like it's less that you think that perfection is uninteresting but that perfection doesn't necessarily equal having no discernible flaws in the content presented.
You also sound like you're saying the best show can be one with flaws, which is what I got out of your Log Horizon part.
Given, I pretty much agree with all of this but I just wanted to reword your thesis statement a little bit.
For a while I've wondered how you consider Log Horizon a 10/10, despite it's many flaws. This really helped me understand how you conceptualize what a 10/10 should be. When you judge a series primarily on its strengths, particularly its ideas, I can better see why you would hold Log Horizon in such high regard.
What I got out of this (and completely agree with) is not so much that perfection isn't interesting, but that longer narratives are immensely more engaging than shorter ones, because they just provide so much more to delve into and think about. Sure you can come up with a short narrative and revise it to pieces until it is flawless because you have less to work with -- larger works present a significantly more daunting task when it comes time to revise. But in the end, I would take a flawed yet engaging long narrative over something short and revised to perfection any day, just because I love to dive deep and explore things in depth -- and I get the feeling you're more that sort of person too.
If say perfection is something everyone should strive for. Although it's impossible to be perfect due to limitations it's still extremely important to strive for it. To me protection is a lot I small things done right and balanced.
Makes me think of the difficulty points in competitions like gymnastics or diving. Flawlessly achieving something less difficult or less impressive can and should be seen as a lesser accomplishment than attempting something incredible and pulling it off, albeit with flaws along the way.
Hmm! That's an interesting position. It kind of helps me understand why I might like my favorite anime series so much... it's short and flawed, but every single thing it does, just about every single line in it, paints for me these fascinating strokes of the world details they aren't showing me. For a little nothing six-episode show, it's crammed with ideas that draw me into it. Made me think, for sure.
You are at what ep of gintama currently digi?
Can you make a followup of this video by reviewing gintama(once you've catch up to it of course)? I think it would be great. Its a 10 in my book too for a long time and the latest season is even more amazing
Also there arent many gintama review on youtube
this vid reminds me of oscar nominations for big picture, often all technically perfect but many you wont even remember in a year
This really seems like the distinction between prose and verse, but in video. Pendulum is the video equivalent of a good poem, but Log Horizon is the video equivalent of an interesting novel. When appreciating poetry the focus is generally more on the technical and emotional aspects, whereas novels focus more on narrative and character. I personally enjoy both, but I appreciate them as somewhat independent forms. I think the short form is best for technical demonstrations or really specific messages. To extend this metaphor outside of anime, I would say that shows like Adventure Time and Steven Universe are the Verse Novels or Epic Poetry of the animation world, and especially in Adventure Time you can see how the short form really excels at making really specific points and experimenting with new ideas.
The more I hear you mirror thoughts I've had over the years, the more I feel like we could have been best friends or maybe the same person xD I've stopped using the "less flaws = better" analogy of perfection a few years ago thanks to Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. Perfection to me means something entirely different because I have played that game. In my search for perfection, I now have ONE criteria, one mantra that drives my analysis, drives my own creative works: Everything must flow. The story must flow, the characters must flow, the scenario must flow. It all flows together to create one unanimous message or truth, whatever that may be.
Before, I used to measure perfection in that straight forward, simplistic way of "less flaws = better game/movie/tv series" but if that were true, Phoenix Wright would be a 5/10 every single game but it's not. Not for me anyway. Those court room scenes are filled with "little ten moments" as you say, but to get that excellent pay off, you NEED the slow build up of the "boring" investigation parts. You absolutely need that juxtaposition. Can it be more interesting? I guess... should it? No! That conflicts so heavily with the central thrust of the game. The courtroom is the star and is supposed to be a gut punch roller coaster, car crashing good time, one dialogue box at a time and having any of that in the investigation absolutely takes away from the special adrenaline pumping thrill ride that is the courtroom. It feels less special.
That level of heightened design philosophy completely hollowed me out as a person and I had to start over. I couldn't trust my mind any more. How could this be?! Why is a game purposely designed to have one have be objectively less interesting to play but I LOVE the game more for it... Slowly, I had to reforge my mental processes and slow I began to change as a person, and no, that is not hyperbole, Phoenix Wright, the game that some people would laugh at you for even calling a game and not just a glorified visual novel, changed me on such a fundamental level and ultimately, THAT is perfection.
I don't think anyone can set out with a goal to "be perfect" or revolutionary. If you do, 9 times out of 10, you will fail. You have to know what you are and be the best damn version of that and use your 6/10 moments to propel your 10/10 moments and that to me, is perfection. I think it is a misnomer to say perfection isn't interesting, I think it is the most interesting because everything is flawed, so to be perfect, you have to know how to use what can be considered flaws and deliver the best version of yourself.
So I just watched Pendulum, it was really great, and I would understand someone giving it a 10, but does that really mean as much as giving a show that's many times longer, a 10? when a show has so many opportunities to ruin the experience, just because it's so much longer, and it is still so good that you can give it a 10, that's pretty damned amazing. though tbh, I can hardly think of anything that's on the extremely long side of things, like 100 episodes and up, that don't suffer for it, and the ones I can have enough differences along the way to stop it from being just one continual flow of the same. I can easily give something that I see as flawed a 10, as long as the really good parts make up for it and some. I can even imagine flaws that could make a show better, if the "flaws" make the real parts of the show stick out, it could even be better than a flawless masterpiece; though at that point it is no longer truly a flaw.
But I can say the same in the other direction, Pendulum was great, but it is way too short for me to give it any score at all. I just couldn't confidently give it a score and be happy with it, maybe if I thought about it for a long time, or rewatch the thing multiple times, but I don't wan't to put that kind of effort just to score the thing. And I must agree, I don't think I'll ever really think about Pendulum ever again.
this was a mess... oh well, its 2:48 am, and I have wasted way too much time on writing this damned thing.
I don't think that Pendulum was just telling a short sad emotional story, it seemed more like a reflection on human mortality(memento mori) and the passage of time(thats why they used that pendulum motive), kind of like your last rap song.In a way its length actually makes it more impressive since it accomplishes so much in such a small length.1 of the reasons people consider something a masterpiece is standing the test of time and the reason why some good works do that and some don't is that the works that do stand the test of time have themes and motives that are universal.stuff like log horizon, in a world in which MMORPGs are no longer popular wont be nearly as liked, but stuff like Pendulum could always be liked since its themes are as i said universal( even the Epic of Gilgamesh had the same themes).
Yeah there’s a lot of depth packed in.
Although I completely agree with you on the concept that something can be a 10/10 if it has *so much good* that the bad isn't frustrating anymore. Gurren Lagann is far and away my favorite anime, but it still has some bad elements and ideas. However, I think there are also shows that are "perfect" by this definition, that also have tons of great ideas. FLCL and Revolutionary Girl Utena are great examples, two of my top 5 favorite anime, and I don't know how you feel now, as you haven't re-watched them in years, but I know you used to really love those shows as well.
But thats kinda a weird viewpoint as well because then any long running shounen is automatically better then any other shorter incredible show in that regard because it will inevitably have a lot more cooler moments in it in the long run then what something like FMA has too offer. Even though I would consider FMA brotherhood to be waaaaaaay better then one piece, I ultimately had waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more fun with one piece and I care for the characters a lot more then in other shows I've seen. But then what makes something of similar length to one piece any better or worst then one piece if it covers the same amount of cool things and ideas? I think it has to do with consistency and how much you love those specific characters over others from a different series. So I think it feeds back into the idea that opinions and ratings for shows should be SUBJECTIVE!
That's not true at all. Long running doesn't mean better, more complex/developed/&c. means better. Something that's a constant shade of shit won't be better than something that's a constant shade of rainbow, or whatever.
Fabulous Knight exactly thats why I said it was a weird viewpoint saying having the most good there is in a show means its a 10 out of 10. like one piece is not in my top 10 at all
TheDeadb3ar You wouldn't say that the anime that is most good should be the better one?
The point wasn't that the longer it is, the better. It was that the better it was, the better. And that better doesn't mean "cut down into a perfect bitesize chunk", it means "able to explore or develop more themes/interesting ideas". I do agree that that thinking is flawed -- but not for the reasons you think it is.
I think you're misunderstanding Digi. It seems like you agree from my perspective. His actual criticism of pendulum isn't that its too short, but that, BECAUSE it is so short, it lacks any real depth or idea that something in a longer form can portray. There's tons and tons of brilliant 3 minute shorts that all basically play out just like pendulum. The problem with 3 minutes as a time limit for storytelling, is you basically have to pick 1 concept and play it out, and it makes for a very shallow, albeit often emotional, journey.
What would be your opinion on your acquaintance Anthony Fantano giving albums such as Kendrick Lamar's "To Pimp A Butterfly" a 10/10 perfect score?
Can anyone help point me to where I can find "pendulum"? I tried to find it on CZcams with no luck and I'm pretty curious to see what all the hubbub is about
search for "furiko"
Anybody know where I can find that pendulum film?
on youtube
search: pendulum short
Yeah, basically how good thing is more of a sum of it's good sides then "10 minus flaws". It's a better measure of how interesting something is.
Perfect example is - when you trying to sell someone on something (anime/movie/game/etc) - you usually describe what is interesting about this thing, not how little flaws it have. It have to be interesting in the first place for you to even pay attention to it and start counting downsides.
I love this video. I also think that 'perfect' content fails to take risks, which is a flaw in and of itself
Bennet the Sage had a review of some Katsuhiro Otomo short film that he considered to be "The Best Anime thing ever."
I prefer density of quality over quantity of quality, at least in a world where you have the privilege of choice between many great things.
What you consider not interesting isn't describing perfection. What you're representing with pendulum is actually flawlessness, not perfection. Also pendulum best deck.
Heres the pendulum video he was talking about if anyone wants to check it out: czcams.com/video/137JwofLr60/video.html
It sounds like it isn't about perfection at all. You weren't saying that other things are more interesting or better because they have flaws, you said they are better because they have more good. One great thing is not as good as many great things. If Gintama lacked any perceivable flaws, then it would be the greatest thing ever, unless a show came out that had even more going on in it.
Couldn't something be perfect because it is interesting? If something isn't interesting doesn't that make it imperfect? Perfection is literally the state of being impossible to be improved upon, so a flawless, yet not interesting show would not be perfect because it could still be improved.
So, perfection depends a lot on the time and how it is managed? I say no. Every show, regardless of the time, can be as deep as anything else. You just need the light of a good director. Look at Hosoda and his films. Or Ghost in the Shell, or Angel's Egg. Even a short movie of 3 minutes can have ideas that don't need to be generic or basic. You only need geniality.
There is significant value to density of quality, but that does not mean that maximum density is always the best. For any normal anime, maintaining the pure cohesiveness of a three min clip is likely to overwhelm and push away audiences. Thus, for good pacing, and to give your audience time to think, a 10/10 will add some irrelevant details, side quests, diversions, and so on. However, they can still serve some small purpose (show a character in a slightly new light, show some small part of the world you haven't seen) and serve the greater purpose of good pacing.
You've used slightly different phrasing than I'm going to so this may end up either being the same thing you said or a slightly different point, but I've always been bothered by something similar to this (or--again--possibly the same thing). But, I've never understood this fixation the anime community in particular seems to have on evaluating a work's quality in terms of its flaws or lack thereof. Like, just because a work has no flaws doesn't mean it actually has anything in it to make it worthwhile, and also inversely just because a work is flawed doesn't mean it also can't have a lot of good things in it which make it worth watching.
The example I'm going to use here (which I don't anticipate you will agree with) is Guilty Crown, which is filled with things I'd consider flaws--the story makes no sense and makes things up on the spot repeatedly, the characters do stupid things that can appear to be inconsistent, etc. But, despite all that Guilty Crown is one of my favorite anime anyways. It has absolutely phenomenal production values and directing which make it constantly enjoyable and suspenseful to watch, and it's got enough emotional moments that through the skilled directing and such can still be satisfying despite the fact that how the story got to this point can be somewhat questionable. And then you can compare this to something like Black Lagoon, a similar-ish show that I also like a lot and has comparatively little in the way of flaws, but ultimately it just doesn't have as much going for it imo such that I got much more out of my time watching Guilty Crown anyways.
Anyways, rant over. I just wanted to complain about something also I guess.
Digibro After Dark is my Log Horizon
legend has it if you talk shit about demos only 10/10 anime, demo will follow you home and shit in your driveway
I can't put it perfectly into words because I'm not an expert in aesthetic philosophy, but I think there's actually quite an interesting and deep philosophical divide between the reasoning between Digi giving LH 10/10 and Demo giving Pendulum 10/10.
Certainly I think there's room to both appreciate a well crafted short experience, and a sprawling, inventive, but less refined one. It's like the difference between a really interesting indie game you finish
Perfection is based on personal opinion. You can have someone think something is perfection whereas someone think something as complete shit
On a 10-point scale, then a 10/10 is simply in the top 10%, assuming there's no way to get a 0. On a 5-point scale it goes by 20% margins, etc. The highest score doesn't mean perfect, it simply means better than the vast majority of everything else.
Digibro is secretly trying to say that Luluco is perfect.
It's ok thought Digi, we already knew.
if you don't believe in objectivity, then perfection doesn't exist whatsoever. perfection isn't boring; it's not real.
10/10 perfect oppinion. First oppinion i gave 10/10 i just couldnt find any flaws in this. I mean they are other oppinions that have like a strong 9... but this was just perfect.
Digi confirmed to be Mayuri Kurotsuchi
While the notion of perfection itself is supremely subjective, I find myself somewhere in-between the two stances presented in this video. The only anime I consider to be perfect is Baccano. The reason behind this is because it did have a lot of cool, fun, and unique concepts in it, and I think they were all executed to perfection. I have not found a single fault in my many viewings, and in fact just come to appreciate it more with every watch. But even with that title as perfect, I don't consider it to be my favorite anime. I have not seen the topical short-film in question, but I doubt I would view it as perfect as a "flaw" is such a subjective notion. It sounds very reminiscent of some of the early scenes in the movie UP, but I wouldn't view those scenes alone as being perfect for a number of reasons.
I also consider the length and narrative to be a crutch. It's easy to pull such a common and well known story out of real life and lay it out in quick succession. I'm not saying I could put together the technical elements, but from my own life I could quickly relate a story about a guy that lost his wife to cancer. If you take that same idea and show it in greater detail and length flaws may be brought to light.
in the case of the short film, i feel that, at least in the way you describe it, it does one thing perfectly, and that is it's goal. if an emotional reaction is what someone values in a work, then, in that regard, it should be perfect to them. like you, I'd would also say i value the ability of a work to convey an idea more than it's ability to convey emotion, but that just means it not my thing and from what you said it seems like the short film, just wasn't your thing.
I also think it has to do with the bang for your buck. I guess you could say that pendulum delivers the greatest payoff that three minutes of time spent watching it can deliver. But that's just me being needlessly argumentative.
If there are no flaws but there's nothing noteworthy about it either it ends up with a maximum 5/10 for me, and my enjoyment ends up gauging how much lower does it go. Although I may score shows that do nothing higher than shows that are absolutely appaling, it's those shows that actually do something that I watch to the end, or even finish.
Isn't it up to what a person values? I know people who don't care about ideas at all. Alot of people I know just care about what emotional response a work of art is able to create for them. I've heard the argument "it's a masterpiece because it made me so sad/happy" plenty of times *Cough* Clannad After Story *cough*.
Videos I put actual effort into apparently aren't interesting either. My most viewed video is just a guile's theme audioswap and none of my other videos come even close to its viewcount and more often than not my videos with less effort put in get more views.
Everyone has their own criteria of a 10/10, but 'not being able to find flaws' certainly isn't one of them.
What's interesting to me is that many people personally rate shows based on how they got rated in school. Two reasons:
- Many people only use the 6-10 part of the 1-10 rating scale. Anything below a 6 is 'not passable' like the school system, meaning that the 6 is the lowest grade you HAVE to achieve in school.
- A 10 is incredibly hard to achieve and needs your work to be perfect, like in school. The huge difference is of course that most of the tests you do can be objectively measured. Every answer has a right one, and if you give all the right answers, you get a 10. One mistake and that 10 is gone. With interpreting art, that doesn't hold up.
I have my own criteria for a 10/10, and one of them is rewatchability. Something has to be so amazing, in any way, that I can and want to rewatch it later and still love it just as much. This can be because the complexity of the show allows me to discover more details, or just because the show holds up in whatever way. But those works are never perfect.
Totally off topic and into a completely different media outlet but this is how I feel about superman and the superman comics. I hate him because he isn't flawed. He's the perfect hero with only one weakness and hundreds of powers.
I hold value to the ideal and concept of perfection, but I would say that, if creating a flawless work or searching for one such work is your aim, then you are missing the point of whatever medium you're searching through.
Instead of the notion that something must be flawless to be perfect, I'd much rather countenance the notion that something should be worth considering a 10/10, or perfect, if it can carry itself with a great level of competence in spite of its flaws. In terms of anime, Code Geass and Log Horizon reach this threshold for me, more so their first season than their second.
when one defines perfection as an absence of flaws then it would makes sense why you would think that to be boring. also I think an equivalent word for that German one would be synergy.
I don't know any anime being perfect but Bill Wurtz video The History If Japan is absolute perfection