High-Level Hoops Debate: Is "Defense Wins Championships" a True Statement in 2023?
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- This week we are doing a big 30 game check-in with our guy Tim Legler. We talk a lot of high level hoops including Joel Embiid and The Philadelphia 76ers, Kawhi Leonard and The Clippers, The Boston Celtics and much more. In this teaser clip we have a big discussion around NBA defense and why offenses are just too good these days.
Subscribe to The Old Man and The Three podcast w/ JJ Redick (ESPN / First Take) and Tommy Alter CZcams channel today for more NBA analysis, player interviews and highlights. - Sport
Seeing a lot of comments already so let's talk about it. This discussion actually centers around the amount of highly skilled offensive players there are today. Is the modern NBA offense SO good that we've gotten to a point where you don't need a top tier defense to win it all?
Over the past decade or so, the main trends of a championship team that I’ve recognized is: 1. A top 10 player in the nba 2. Chemistry/culutre 3. Health 4. Veteran presence 5. Player specialists/players with specific roles that help maximize production
You might call it good offense, but anyone who watches FIBA knows it's a mirage. Every European player has made a remark about how much easier it is to score in the nba. So is the modern offense really THAT good, or is it just running amok thanks to modern officiating
There are currently 52 players avg over 20 ppg. In 2002 there were only 6 players avg over 25! It has nothing to do with talent as 2002’s elite class was stellar. It’s the rules, increase in pace & 3 point shooting emphasis.
@@lukebaumgartner6763 The last few years, we've had 4-5 legit contenders when in many past seasons, it was 1-3. I like your list, but I'd change the order and expand upon an item: 1. Health. The title winner has almost always been the healthiest of the legit contenders. 2. A top 10 player. 3. Chemistry / culture (the most talent-stacked team rarely wins the chip) 4. Players with specific dynamic roles / defensive matchups (being able to match up well seems to matter more than simply being an overall great defense) 5. Veteran presence
Thank you!!! The best 2 players in the league aren’t from America & aren’t athletic in the least bit. Essentially. Destroying these guys with IQ & skill. When I watch joker & doncic it’s seeing what a player from 10-20 years ago would do to the modern league. USA just came in 4th with the FIBA rules .
I love these conversations on this channel 100 times more than the stupid debates about who is the GOAT on TV. Great insight!
It's smart conversation not click biting show...
You can’t have an honest high level debate about the NBA with guys who receive checks from Espn & other corporate entities. They are supposed to say the current product is the best ever!!
Jeff Van Gundy & Marc Jackson got let go after 15+ years for being too honest about the current NBA
I'm all here for it over ESPN NBA talking points
I agree.. oh by the way it’s Jordan😅
It's Jordan...
I’ve always felt that, among the top offensive teams, the one with the most competent defense will come out on top. The same is true in football. But elite offense is a prerequisite that enters you into the conversation.
This is so true and very well said.
True and I think that’s why you need 1 of those athletic freaks that are all so unusually quick footed, and longer than the typical player playing their position to really make a difference on defense these days. For example Giannis, JJJ, Draymond the younger version, Chet, or even a Shai. SGA being 6’6 w long arms and an excellent handle is such an advantage on any guard matching up w him that’s shorter than him. It’s that length and athleticism that you really need to stop the kind of athletes in today’s league on any kind of consistent basis. Especially in the playoffs! You can only beat that kind of attribute so many times as a shorter or less explosive player. And it may not affect a player for 47 minutes but in that last minute when everyone’s tired is when it helps or hurts you the most depending on what side of the Ball your on. I know it’s always been like this in the league, but it seems like nowadays where there’s a lot more of these genetic lottery body types rise to the top.
Aaron Gordon gives Denver a huge advantage over almost every team down low right under the basket, because most players playing his position aren’t as quick or athletic as he is. Not to mention the strength he has. Michael Porter Jr being 6’9 allows him to shoot over almost any small forward, trying to stop it. It’s these little advantages along the margins that really help build a winning team in today’s league. You can’t beat it unless you have the size to match up yourself.
There are usually only about 2 or 3 teams that are both Defense and Offense in the top 10. Those teams area always in the Finals or Conference Finals.
As a Heat fan, that’s the dichotomy of the Miami Heat in their past trips to the finals
Great defense come playoff time but not enough points offensively which is a prerequisite to win playoff games
Tim and JJ have great basketball minds and go so well together
Second this.
They are simplistic and superficial. Never questioning the status quo. Always defending NBA decisions.
But yeah, great minds, sure.
@@nicolasmenendezsarries6786 Well I didn’t come expecting a Timothy Leary diatribe about questioning what a ‘what’ is. I like the perspective of former players who love the game, take it seriously, analyze the current state of the game as professionals who are invested in the success of the league for a number of reasons. I am also invested in this too.
Sounds like you have a personal conflict with something that the league office has done, plenty of times I felt that way so word. Don’t let it get in the way of enjoying great content.
Are you content with the content? What’s contained in the contents of contempt for the content? Con- meaning together, -tent past participle of -tain, to hold. -tempt past participle of -temn from the Latin temnere “to despise.”
Contempt = despise together
Content = hold together
Contract = draw together
Conduct = brought together
Stay illuminated light being.
NBA, New Babylon Abomination
NBA, Negate Biblical Authority
NBA, Necromancy Beelzebub Antichrist
NBA, Nazi Beast Armageddon
@@nicolasmenendezsarries6786this should be good. Let's hear all your thoughts on the status quo, that for some reason you were willing to mention but not actually talk about
Like Tim said offense has become so potent today that it just comes to a point that defense isn’t as impactful in theory so although you do need defense, better offense will always win
Phoenix Suns literally exists
@@thanrl-yd9ub Suns are just bad, they had a top 3 defense and offense 2021-2022 with the runner up DPOY and look what happened
@@thanrl-yd9ubno bench. Suns are too TOP HEAVY. You need players outside your CORE who are reliable come playoff time
@@thanrl-yd9ubbut they aren't even that good at offense
Don't let these goobers fool you my guy the game is still ruled by the team who plays the best defense we're in a different era with different rules so more points are scored but the game is still won by the team who plays the best defense. The occasional outlier of this is if you shoot the ball really terrible from three while the other team shoots the ball really well from three you're playing great defense on the perimeter but they are just making tough shots because this rule is also tru in basketball good offense beats good defense.
That Raptors team was such a beast, top 5 on both ends. The Gasol trade was so underrated in bringing that team to the next level.
Tim Legler feels like a relative to JJ, such a good fit for the show.
Both are recent, white shooting guards in the NBA. They don't complement each other at all on most areas. Legs is not a good fit.
@@penkima4923the fact you think two shooters wouldn’t complement each other and the whole point of the vid is how more shooters together is better is funny😂
Would love to see a regular podcast between the too
I am glad we discovered your channel, very useful for me and my son! thanks
Defenses need to be smart enough and competent enough that there is nothing the other team can easily spam against them for easy buckets. So the most elite defense is not needed, but the defense can't be sloppy or have any specific egregious weaknesses.
most 2k comment I've ever seen 😂😂
This was really informative thanks much
This podcast is a real professional one because it gives no BS, no meaningless craps but professional insights with datas.
JJ talks like he still plays in the league. Complete bias to his era and players. Data is used to support false narratives. Just like the rest of the media.
7 min in… can already tell this is a great video and I now HAVE to tune into the whole pod.
Great conversation and breakdown
Great conversation !
very good discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed this.
I did a statistics project on this very concept in 2017. What I found from a simple random sample of conference finalists since the merger, was that around an equal amount of independently great offenses make it far as independently great defenses. And in terms of those that win the championship, there was an almost identical amount of independently great offenses as defenses, with the occasional teams that had both and the even RARER teams with neither rating being in the top 5-10. However, in those cases, they won because of the MATCHUP, or because they had a singularly transcendent player that took over. Examples would be one of the Hakeem rings, Houston had neither a great offense nor defense. However, Hakeem completely dominated his matchup and it won them the championship
That Houston team would dominate today. They had so many shooters they could rotate them, and an elite big. Later an elite wing. They were 30 years ahead of their time. They used 10 % of their offensive potential, because nobody realized it back then.
@@penkima4923 oh yeah, it's funny because due to the illegal defense rules and just the way the game was played, spacing and size and stuff punished that rockets team in those days. But now, their positional versatility and shooting would be a MUCH bigger factor in addition to having Hakeem. Cause Hakeem is basically Giannis on defense and, well, Hakeem on offense. It'd honestly be a kinda similar team to the 2014 spurs that ripped the league in half that year
Is it possible to find the standard deviation? And if so, would you mind emailing me it?
@@Edison.m3806 from a simple random sample of 60 NBA conference finalists since the merger up to 2016 (at the time the current season was 2017)
Standard deviations (to the hundredth)
Whole sample:
Offensive rating: 3.80
Defensive rating: 2.84
Champions within sample: 12 teams
Offensive rating: 4.13
Defensive rating: 3.68
Of a 60 team simple random sample, 1/5 went on to win the championship. Which, considering each year has four conference finalists, I feel like that's about as close to representing a fair amount of champions as you could ask for. Overall, 4 champs were a top 5 offense and a defense outside the top 5, 4 were elite defenses and sub top 5 offenses, 2 were elite in both, and 2 were elite in neither.
Also, I feel this is some relevant information to add:
Obviously, having a negative differential is impossible to win, so every team basically has a higher offensive rating than defensive in the sample. The worst ranking offense to win a championship in my sample was the 04 pistons, with the 18th ranked offense that year. Their defense was the number two defense that year. The worst defense to win the championship in my sample was the 01 Lakers, ironically. Their defense was ranked 21st that year. Their offense was ranked 2nd in the league that year.
I can virtually guarantee that the rise in three point shooting the last 7-8 years has skewed the numbers towards offense. However, since the merger, the mean offensive ranking and defensive ranking of my sample of conference finalists only differed by about 0.41, favoring defense. While it may favor defense ever so slightly, that's not really significant enough of a difference to indicate higher ratings in defense correlate to any more success than high rankings in offense. I feel the rankings are almost more important than the actual efficiency metrics, because those account for the change in strategy better. Like, the best offense in the 80s generally doesn't touch the best 2010s offenses. But seeing the relative rankings shows the performance of high powered offense and defense for their respective eras. Because again, a team that would be considered high flying in 1992 would probably look more like defensive specialists now just because teams weren't scoring as much.
@@penkima4923 I'll also add, that Houston team shot AMAZING from 3 in the playoffs. Chilcut, Cassel, Kenny Smith, Elie, and Horry all shot over 38% from 3. Add in Hakeem getting you 33, 10, 4.5, with nearly 3 blocks a game and 1.2 steals a game, and they could match up with and beat anyone. They had shooters at all positions, could absolutely play against small ball due to Hakeem athleticism and quickness defensively. They could throw 4 elite shooters out there with Hakeem at any given time.
He needs to interview tibs and Vogel on this. Would be really interesting to get their take. They are both defensive minded and used to coach teams that gave up 90 ppg and have evolved with the game over the years
I’d be curious especially for Tibs since he’s never been able to win anything since he left Boston as an assistant and became a head coach. Like..he might be a great example of how it’s not as simple as defense wins championships anymore
The three-point line itself used to be a defender. You could sag behind the three-point line in the past. Now if you’re not up past the three-point line, most guys will hit that three. And dudes are hitting shots three feet behind the three-point line.
U have to be a top 10-12 defensive team still. A team like the Lakers though prioritizes defense too much to the point their offense struggles considerably
great discussion. best basketball related podcast
As a Pacers fan, we currently have the best offense in the league but our defense is horrendous. Yeah sometimes we beat better teams by lighting them up for 130+ but that’s not sustainable and we’re giving up damn near that much every game too. Defense matters so much and having versatile wing defenders is more important than ever imo.
The nuance here is that in the playoffs the refs call most games differently.
@@panagiotisatmatzidis9972 You hit the nail on the head. I think the biggest challenge in the NBA is this. The regular season is almost entirely offensive where as the post season defense starts to matter a lot.
I think that's the reason Miami has cracked it. A guy like Tyler Herro that's 6'5 and 200 pounds soaking wet can't guard a construction cone but he can give you 20-25 PPG in the regular season in his sleep. He goes from the teams leading scorer to not even in the rotation in the playoffs and they make the finals.
You almost need different personnel the regular season is so different than the post season.
@user-dc7um4pr3f he was hurt last year if he didn't fall out of rotation they'd probably win
he was out of the rotation due to injury lol@@user-dc7um4pr3f
i thought myles turner was supposed to be a dpoy type of player
It’s a combo of things. Everything Legler said plus the fact that the League doesn’t allow Defenders to be physical to somewhat have an overall fighting chance along with the schematics.
2 of the best to listen to when it comes to real hoops talk
GREAT STUFF JJ AND LEGS
This is gold!
I love hearing these guys with such superb analysis. Great substance without the fluff.
i haven’t been super in the loop but wanted to ask if you’ll be making any appearances on first take this season with basketball. It turns into a real debate show when you and stephen get into a passionate argument with each other. Thanks and many blessings
Dope breakdown by Legs n JJ as usual 💯🔥
Fire convo
i love when these 2 link up
The overall answer is both, but slightly offensive rating and for future seasons ORtg. Check this out:
-The average defense and offensive rating (league ranking) of NBA Champions since 1980 has both been 5.45 in the league.
-59.06% of all NBA Champions since 1980 were top 5 in the league in DRtg.
-61.37% of all NBA Champions since 1980 were top 5 in the league in ORtg.
Every NBA Champion since 1950 has been top 5 in one of the metrics except the 1978 Bullets, and 1995 Rockets.
All Champions Since 1950 ORtg and DRtg League Ranking:
Season Team ORtg DRtg
2023 Denver Nuggets 4 16
2022 Golden State Warriors 17 1
2021 Milwaukee Bucks 5 10
2020 Los Angeles Lakers 11 3
2019 Toronto Raptors 5 5
2018 Golden State Warriors 3 11
2017 Golden State Warriors 1 2
2016 Cleveland Cavaliers 3 10
2015 Golden State Warriors 2 1
2014 San Antonio Spurs 6 3
2013 Miami Heat 2 9
2012 Miami Heat 8 4
2011 Dallas Mavericks 8 7
2010 Los Angeles Lakers 11 4
2009 Los Angeles Lakers 3 6
2008 Boston Celtics 9 1
2007 San Antonio Spurs 5 2
2006 Miami Heat 7 9
2005 San Antonio Spurs 8 1
2004 Detroit Pistons 18 2
2003 San Antonio Spurs 7 3
2002 Los Angeles Lakers 2 7
2001 Los Angeles Lakers 2 21
2000 Los Angeles Lakers 4 1
1999 San Antonio Spurs 11 1
1998 Chicago Bulls 8 3
1997 Chicago Bulls 1 4
1996 Chicago Bulls 1 1
1995 Houston Rockets 6 12
1994 Houston Rockets 15 2
1993 Chicago Bulls 2 7
1992 Chicago Bulls 1 4
1991 Chicago Bulls 1 7
1990 Detroit Pistons 11 2
1989 Detroit Pistons 7 3
1988 Los Angeles Lakers 2 9
1987 Los Angeles Lakers 1 7
1986 Boston Celtics 3 1
1985 Los Angeles Lakers 1 7
1984 Boston Celtics 5 3
1983 Philadelphia 76ers 5 5
1982 Los Angeles Lakers 2 10
1981 Boston Celtics 5 4
1980 Los Angeles Lakers 1 9
1979 Seattle SuperSonics 14 1
1978 Washington Bullets 10 9
1977 Portland Trail Blazers 2 5
1976 Boston Celtics 6 3
1975 Golden State Warriors 1 5
1974 Boston Celtics 5 6
1973 New York Knicks 3 4
1972 Los Angeles Lakers 1 1
1971 Milwaukee Bucks 1 1
1970 New York Knicks 5 1
1969 Boston Celtics 10 1
1968 Boston Celtics 8 2
1967 Philadelphia 76ers 1 3
1966 Boston Celtics 8 1
1965 Boston Celtics 7 1
1964 Boston Celtics 9 1
1963 Boston Celtics 9 1
1962 Boston Celtics 7 1
1961 Boston Celtics 8 1
1960 Boston Celtics 5 1
1959 Boston Celtics 5 1
1958 St. Louis Hawks 3 5
1957 Boston Celtics 5 1
1956 Philadelphia Warriors 1 5
1955 Syracuse Nationals 7 2
1954 Minneapolis Lakers 5 2
1953 Minneapolis Lakers 4 1
1952 Minneapolis Lakers 7 1
1951 Rochester Royals 1 7
1950 Minneapolis Lakers 1 1
NBA Champion League Ranking ORtg
===========================================================================
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 1.0: 18.18%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 2.0: 15.91%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 5.0: 13.64%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 11.0: 9.09%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 3.0: 9.09%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 8.0: 9.09%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 7.0: 6.82%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 4.0: 4.55%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 6.0: 4.55%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 17.0: 2.27%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 9.0: 2.27%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 18.0: 2.27%
The percentage of champions ORtg rank Rank 15.0: 2.27%
NBA Champion League Ranking DRtg
===========================================================================
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 1.0: 18.18%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 3.0: 13.64%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 7.0: 13.64%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 2.0: 11.36%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 4.0: 11.36%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 9.0: 9.09%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 10.0: 6.82%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 5.0: 4.55%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 16.0: 2.27%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 11.0: 2.27%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 6.0: 2.27%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 21.0: 2.27%
The percentage of champions DRtg rank Rank 12.0: 2.27%
That 2001 Lakers run was special : they had by far the worst defense out of all the champs, but we were SO dominant offensively that it didn't matter....Tim Duncan had 40 points in a game and it didn't matter....Iverson had a 48 pointer against us AND averaged 35 ppg......and it did not matter!
For one year at least that Shaq/Kobe duo was a wrecking machine....
@@twiliteznthe thing about that Lakers team is that they became a really good defense throughout the playoffs, yet in the regular season they were a bottom half defense. Helped them go 15-1
@@zackrodriguez7519 Yep…that was a Jekyll & Hyde season….the Shaq/Kobe squabbling drove me CRAZY 😬
This statement is definitely more so for football. Every Super Bowl winning team had a great defense, damn near
Yep look at the last patriots SB win. Held the other team to 3 points.
It’s not more so football. Top defensive teams in basketball win championships.
The Rams offense was awful that game. Not every low scoring game is purely on the defense. That was also 6 years ago, NFL rules have changed drastically since then.@@AidanHolland
@@thomaschapman6088 If you took even two minutes to do some research before leaving a comment you would see that you are wrong. What made you comment when you have no idea what you are talking about?
@@NY-Vicewhat team that won a championship in the NBA was not good defensively?
Pls keep these high level hoop convos
Excellent watch. More of these with Legs
Christmas was the first time I watched a game called by JJ and Richard Jefferson and I love it. Wish they’d call more Nuggets games.
JJ and Legs bringing the best basketball convos out there
The defense in the NBA has been pathetic for years. Not saying that in a convo about defense, isn't a good thing.
It's about timely Defense because nobody is stopping nobody these days more than ever!
Players today are soft, they have no drive, and nobody shows effort on defense. Timely defense shouldn't be all we can ask. But it's all the current player base has to offer.
Damn, that 2009 Rajan Rondo callout was savage. XD
Hearing Tim say that at 7:43 after OKC dropped a 40 point first quarter is kinda nuts. He's absolutely right.
You know there were teams dropping 90 point halves years ago right?
@@williamg7138 You know there was a point to purpdrank's comment, right?
@@penkima4923 cope
I think "defense wins championships" has always been taken too literally as though offense isn't important. Being able to score is obviously a must have. In my mind, defense does win championships. Almost all teams can score enough to win, but very few have a complimentary defense to go to the next level. Defense, when complimenting good offense, wins.
Yeah the full saying is “Offense wins games, defense wins championships.” If you aren’t playing offense well you don’t make it to the finals in the first place. It’s about what separates you from other top teams not about what gives you the best chance of winning it all if you’re building from nothing.
I could listen to these two for hours.
Great conversation!!! In my opinion players today are better conditioned and better at offense. Players from previous generation were less offensively skilled but put in more effort so played more physical hence better defense.
But think about that Arenas take, as far as effort goes. He said he doesn’t know if he could have played today because he never gave a lick of effort and it didn’t matter cuz he could just guard the few guys on the other team who didn’t have any offensive skills. That doesn’t barely exist anymore at all!!!! There have been some really talented offensive scorers who don’t really get to play antmroe or got played out of the league when they could still score simply because of how few non offensive threats are ever on the court antmroe. Even ridiclpus offensive guys like Steph, Trae, etc, get hunted over and over and over and sometimes it costs them games ( sure we can take Stephs name out, but think how hard he has to work jusr so he ISNT a huge liability). Even guys like Brunson, etc, the list goes on of guys who just have to try so hard to be not too pathetic at D so that no matter how good they are on offense, they don’t cost their teams games. I think this is also what makes the celtocs so good. Ya their offense is a whole story itself, but they don’t really have anyone on the court much ever who can be targeted. PP and Hauser have both worked their asses off to actually be pretty dang good defenders. And when it’s Tatum, brown, white, holiday, and KP ? Are you kidding me? Good luck trying to hunt one of them.
I guess my shorter point would be that players from other eras weren’t better at anthrint. Not even close. If you watch like the 1989 finals it’s hilarious
To be clear that wasn’t just a random date I picked, I actually went back and watched the 89 finals
I think when you have such high offensive skill it definitely means that the team that's able to not only get a stop but also secure the rebound thus ending the threat is more likely to win. I think the Celtics and Nuggets are favorites not because of their offense but because they have a lot of long limbed individuals who can play passing lanes and get deflections.
I’ve wondered this in the past and that is, can a lot of this be traced right back to the Dream Team? That the popularity and dominance of that team both opened the eyes of kids all over the world to the possibilities of basketball and tasked them with a challenge of figuring out how to defeat a more gifted and athletic opponent. It was the Europeans who broke the traditional roles and forced everyone else to take them seriously
JJ and Tim...the rules are a huge difference-maker as well.
Defense has lost tremendous significance because you can't be physical anymore.
There is a lot less"bad shots" by today's standard...most attempts are highly acceptable in today's NBA and fortunately basketball in general.
I watch the league nightly and have so for years. Ive never seen so many shots that would be deemed to be unacceptable in lets say even 15 years ago. (Coaches would have you on the bench)
The coaches have all bought in to the ANALYTICS definitely. Players love it. Most fans love it.
Less intricate offenses, more isolation that creates THREES. more POSSESSIONS... More PACE...and yesss more SKILL.
I say this after watching Phil Jackson and Dennis Rodman detail the Bulls triangle offense and listening to this wonderful conversation.
So understanding that comparison to today's game is EVERYTHING.
Defense is mostly effort and discipline imo so it directly relates to team chemistry and maturity. Offense is an absolute must to match the pace and scoring of the current league. So your offense needs to be great in order to even have a chance to win it all. You may be able to stop someone from getting a layup but if you give up a 3 the next possession then all in all it's not that different. Defense is also much much more vulnerable and exploitable since one tiny mistake may lead to a foul or broken scheme, but the ability to make shots never goes away.
Tim and JJ get an instant thumb uppie 👍🏾
This is possibly one of my most favorite pieces of content I've seen/heard in a HOT MINUTE! nearly every single point that I tell people and have been saying for the last year is finally actually being said by 2 highly educated former NBA players.
why the warriors are struggling looks obvious - when they have 2 or 3 non scoring players on the floor, coupled with the fact that the NBA as a whole has never looked more skilled with "random" players or bench players with a Strap shooting at an efficient clip.
that the NBA in my opinion WAS NOT more physical, the game was played differently, with the goal being post ups, and mid range jumpers which is what seems to "feel" like it was more physical from memory. but IF you actually went back and OBJECTIVELY watched a random NBA game you'd feel exactly how myself, and JJ feel. it wasn't MORE physical as a whole, there were players that you played tougher and you maybe bumped and banged with, but the same thing happens to Steph or any top scorer in today's game.
for me it comes down to skill and analytics. and I really appreciate you putting this content out! THIS IS going to be a widely debated topic, but I think there's a lot of truth, but people who love a certain era honestly just sensationalize how the game felt in that time. GO BACK AND WATCH FOR YOURSELF! Just saying!
Man, I dream about the big broadcasting programs, going this way on analysis. On day 🙌
Since 1980, about half of all championship teams were good (top 10) at both. The other half were really good at EITHER offense or defense. If you are a primarily offensive team and just mediocre or average on defense you will need to be able to lock down on defense during key stretches or during clutch time. Same thing applies to primarily defensive teams. If your focus is defense and you're just okay at offense you will still need a guy or two that can go get a bucket at any time -> think Chauncey Billups or Rip Hamilton from the 04 Pistons.
I think it's all about the spacing, the 3, and the lack of rim protection. Once the league got rid of illegal defense then it forced teams to create spacing with shooters because defenders have to stay home. It creates such a different style of play and a different game.
I think it's about players being soft wimps, with zero effort and zero interest in defense.
@@penkima4923sitting in the paint all game forces teams to only take mid range shots and 3’s, you can’t just power your way in, you’ll miss 1/4 shots driving to the lane packed
To win a championship now, I think a team needs to play both ends at an above average rate but not necessarily at a high rate. Teams don’t need to have the identity of a being a lock down defensive team like some teams in the past. Good team defense can lead to more scoring opportunities on the offensive end of the court. I think being a great two way team gives you the best shot at winning a NBA championship nowadays!
Listening to both of you talk basketball is undefeated pure gold 🙏🏽
Great conversation. I would say based on the in season tournament finals that elite defenders, namely AD, can have a big impact in a single game. Lakers defense was really good and shut down a highly ranked pacers offensive.
Not that great conversation. There's more missed shots now, because of the amount of three-balls, and rebounding can alter the game. AD collected 20 rebounds in the IST-finals. The Pacers are currently the best offensive team in the league.
All but 4 championship teams over the last 40+ years have had a top 10 defense (3 of the 4 teams were coming off a title and were top 5 the year before). It might not seem as important but the reality is what separates the champs from other contenders are that they have a top offense + top defense, as opposed to having a top 5 offense and a bottom half defense
yes and they won because they had a TOP offence not a TOP defence...
People see Defense as a total shutdown of an Offense which is incorrect. Defense is you limit the Offensive options of the opponent. Just this era has just already has advanced offence that you cant really stop it. But Defense still wins games its just not seen by the naked eye anymore on how fast pace the game is now.
"Just this era has just already has advanced offence that you cant really stop it."
Take a team from the 90's or 00's, and stopping the Pacers today would be child's play.
"how fast pace the game is now."
The pace isn't that fast. It's the defense that's complete trash.
You need to rebound, give extra efforts when needed (rotations), be competitive with 50/50 balls, and have some type of defensive strategy (connectedness)
The key “Do you have a lineup that can get a stop?”
How do you go on a run without Defense? How do you close out a game without Defense? Defense wins games and championships.
nobody said do not play defense ..
in *"these times"* defense DO NOT win championships ..
(it's just THAT simple and has already been proven duh!!)
@@eyewatch2see77 No, LoL. An elite defensive team hasn't won the chip in a while, because there hasn't been one elite defensive team in the league in a while.
@@penkima4923 *defense*
stick to the script ..
you moving the goal post ...
nobody said anything about ELITE ..
@@eyewatch2see77 Legs said elite defense.
@@penkima4923
the TITLE of this video says > *DEFENSE*
stick to the script ..
(that goes for "you" & "him") .. duh!
Where is the full video of this show?
it's funny i remember when the super sonics tried that with Rodman, and he obliterated them on the offensive glass. they had to stop after game 2 of the finals lol.
JJ + Legs = Brilliance!
10:25 nice Thabo Sefolosha call out Tim
Need defensive clutch time to be the main factor with todays offense
The way the game has evolved due to Steph’s shooting & big guys like Jokic, Bam, Sabonis being able to handle the ball & pass at a high level makes offense otherworldly now. The reason we’ve been seeing the trend over the past 2-3 years of having so many personal high scoring games (40,50,60 pts) is because the shooting/spacing combined with the versatility you can get from all sizes of players across all positions is really unstoppable if you have the right pieces.
There are currently 52 players avg over 20 ppg. In 2002 there were only 6 players avg over 25! It has nothing to do with talent as 2002’s elite class was stellar. It’s the rules, increase in pace & 3 point shooting emphasis.
@@kembryembry3394a lot of it also has to do with the meta/style of play that’s pursued. Back in the early 00s it was the toughest defensive era and offenses were behind the times. Offenses pursued hero ball or big man centered offenses that were effective without zone defenses.
We seen guys like them in the past. Nash was Curry who didn't take as many shots. Jokic has been done before with Walton and Sabonis
@@kembryembry3394Look at the number of shots taken and how many from behind the 3 point line. The efficiency numbers aren't much different.
@@kembryembry3394what type of crack are you smoking you can literally pull up film rn…. I just watched it yesterday…of the 03-04 04-05 finals the Kobe and shaq era finals…there’s a lot of skill less people out there
You need to be top 5-10 in both or elite at one and at least 10-13ish in the other, preferably offense being elite
Yes it does. We saw the 2005 to 2007 Bears get to a Superbowl.. with defense of course team has to score to win it all but defense gets team to the end to fight more than offense. A dope defense scores with take aways, steals, can't dribble on them
No travel calls for stepback 3s or the 2 steps you get when you get the ball is a huge advantage for the offence
I’ve been watching nba basketball since the early 90’s and watching games today I’m blown away at the shot making ability from most the players on the court.
I think defense is a lot of effort and if you have a great offense then putting more effort on defense is a winning formula just from looking at curry and how everyone used to target him where now he’s found more ways to be effective on defense by getting more steals being more physical and gaining weight which all goes back to effort
I agree...And imo defense doesn't matter in the reg season playoffs are different because of that effort u speak of
Curry is a bad example, he couldn’t make a defensive all nba team if his life depended on it.
@@Spartacus4281 He possibly could. We don't know. He's not defensive-minded, and has never really tried on defense.
Steals don’t mean your a good defender btw pump the breaks on that 😂
Can these guys have their own tv show cuz I love when they talk basketball
This is a real BB conversation, others are more like reality shows to me.
I agree with everything they said, but I wish they'd brought up the ease of movement for offenses because refs don't call travel/carry and players have gotten so used to that their play is technically incredibly sloppy but the refs almost never call it outside of random games.
Miami made a defensive run all the way to the Finals just last year. Took out great offensives like Boston and Milwaukee. KCP & AG can impact all the important actions teams run against them and with Joker, AG and their length, they can be dominant on the defensive boards when it's time to close out a game.
So you need guys that can make up for mistakes and use their vision and discernment to decide when to help and when not to. The defensive schemes that the last 3 champions ran are high level.
But Boston and Milwaukee were also supposedly good to great defences also - I feel like Bostons offence became stagnant and turned into alot more ISO ball and Miami just made sure the ball ended up Jaylens hands and he couldn't deliver - with the Bucks they literally had Giannis scared to get the ball in the clutch because he was struggling for the FT line - where Jimmy Butler was cooking and playing like the top 2 or 3 player in the league during that run - so of course Miami played good defence but they just took advantage of there opponents weakness and played unbelievable offence IMO (which is why the league is all about match ups more so then having great defensive players) because once they played a great offence they got cooked lol
I feel like, while offense is more important, it's still defence that seems like the seperator between 1st round exits, conference champions and lastly nba champs. Though sometimes the offense is just so great, especially on nights when everyone's jumpshots seem to fall, that you seemingl, can't do nothing about it.
Yeah but the defense expectations are lower, like as long as you are not allowing teams to continue to shoot open 3%
I would say it’s more about giving up layups and offensive rebounds. Even curry moss wide open 3s
I feel like in higher level nba basketball, more than ratings and shooting percentages, possession is the stat that tells the tale. If you control pace, getting stops defensively and then operating half court sets, your team has the best chance to win.
offense only wins games is when it comes down to the last shot. The game will typically be won by the team that gets the most stops on defense. Buy basketball is primarily in offensive sport so in the error of explosive offenses the best team is typically the team that can get the most stops because everybody can score.
it's all about getting stops & capitalizing on the other end. that is the game of basketball.
Yes. Stops and rebounds wins 🏆
JJ and his uncle just having a normal basketball convo
Team defense trumps individual defense now because of what Legs said. With more offensively skilled players on the floor it's imperative that players communicate on switches and screens to body up and get a hand in front of shooters, especially from 3-point land.
You need both Elite offense and defense to win a chip! We’ve seen elite offensive teams, and I mean best in the league get dropped in the first round because playoff defense is a totally different animal than regular season defense.
What is allowed with ball handling has led tot he rise of more shot creators and lines up with the increase in drives. What is allowed now was carrying even a decade ago, let alone go back to the 80s and then 90s when an Iverson crossover was very publicly derided as a carry until it wasn't. This allows a lot more players with less polished handles to now be shot creators or "big ballhandlers" and creates easier drives that lead to more kick outs to 3s.
This is facts. JJ also brushes over the fact that even though drives are up, those drives are either kicks to 3 point shooters or uncontested layups because of the spacing. The game is now shoot a 3, drive and kick for a 3, or drive for an uncontested layup/dunk because of all the spacing on the court.
Great points been made in the video but since the game is now more perimeter oriented the fact that you can't be physical anymore on defense is a huge advantage for the offense, especially considering that with this much spacing and weak interior presence scoring at the rim is easier as it's ever been. Just because there is so much shot making skills in today's nba it's a shame that rules and officiating are so in favor of the offense.
I'm wondering how offensive rating is being calculated, or rather how it is affected by the lack of physicality and defense in today's game..For example..shots in the 90s were much more contested because there was no technical foul called when a defender landed in the offensive player's landing zone...Sure, today we have better 3pt shooters, but there is less shots contested. Same with layups..there is so much spacing, it's easier to score inside once you beat your guy..
Idk why they seemed like wanted to avoid it, but the rules in all major sports in the last 20 years or so have been to fuel offense. It’s a huge deal.
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im surprised the evolution (or extinction) of the center wasnt brought up. most centers are offensive minded now whereas in the past they were the anchor and the last line of defense.
I agree 1000% with everything they said. I do think defense is still important to be at least above average if u have aspirations to win a championship. I’m so sick of people not looking at defense and only offense and making rankings solely off offensive play. It’s frustrating because u need defense… This is what frustrates me when we talk about Luka. Yes he’s one of the best offensive players we’ve ever seen. I will not argue or debate against that. But he cannot be placed in the same light as a MJ, Kobe, Lebron because he is a below average defender. He seems to have worked on his conditioning which is great but his lack of athleticism still makes him a below average defensive player (Defensive rating 2023: 113, avg 110). This is why I think once the playoffs starts his light dims down the most and u start to see that liability. I feel like only people who understand the game understand this but most of the internet don’t really understand the game, they just like volume 3s and think that’s all u need to win.
You are SO RIGHT
I think it’s a bit of both . With offenses so potent and effective in todays NBA if you’re anything close to a top 10 defense the NBA title is yours to loose
That’s what is funny they talk in theory and eye test that offense is more important yet when you look at the west top4 seeds right now and east top 5 ( Milwaukee is an exception) that teams with better defense always win last year where the kings got bounced in the first round dew to lack of defense and the last 4 standing teams that went to conference finals and finals all having great defenses I wonder what this conversation is about when nothing shows in the proof
Willie Green needs to hear this conversation
Jimmyhighroller just put out a great video doing a deep dive into the statistics around this exact topic. He really disproves the old head argue that players don't play defense anymore. Players across the league have gotten so potent offensively that there is no place for defensive specialists. To keep up in today's league, a player has to be able to hit a three and drive to the cup on offense, the bare minimum to see any play time if their best skill is defense. I just wonder what the realistic cieling is for offensive efficiency and when we'll reach that.
What is the name of those headphones
Love to hear confirmation of what I've seen and said plenty of times.
The physicality of the 80's and 90's is extremely overrated, outside of a few teams/rivalries.
Defenders individually are better today, based off 1 they can't be physical. 2. They have to guard out to 25-30 feet against ball handlers, and even the spot up guys aren't spotting up from 18 feet anymore they're behind the 3pt line.
3. Most times there is nobody you can just completely Ignore and leave wide open. 💯💯
Defenders aren't "better" if they're less effective at stopping the offensive player from scoring (which is literally the goal of defense). You can say you like their skill or style more, but but it's impossible for defenders to be better cause the NBA made it to where it was harder to be better.
Forget hand checking and the 3s rule for a second, the rule granting landing space for shooters gives them extra cushion and they don't have to worry about the threat of a rolled ankle. If you've played basketball, you know that's a big deal cause no real hooper likes shooting against someone right up under them when injury is a potential threat. NBA changed the rule about off ball screen/clutching specifically for freedom of movement. It's simply easier to get a shot off when the rules take away the threat of a defender being in your shooting space and you can get to where you want without nearly the same resistance.
@@gumballwaterson1957 They're definitely better. The job is just much much harder.
@@Bigbigenergy If you're less effective at doing a job, how are you better? Defense's job is to stop the offense from scoring. Individuals were allowed more tools to stop their opponent from scoring. Great defenders/defensive specialist used all the tools and were more effective at stopping their opponents from scoring that modern defenders both individually and at a team level.
Did anyone watch the way denver defended last yr during their playoff run.. defense is still that important.. getting stops is at a premium now because offenses are so good
Playoffs are different than the regular season and the effort through the game goes up exponentially and it’s more about who can ramp up defence in a playoff game for a few minutes. That’s why using regular season stats for the playoffs is a bit misleading.
They have positional size at every position😅 nice quote JJ
I mean the goal of basketball is to put the ball in the hoop more than your opponent so although you do need great defense to win a championship, the most important thing will always be offense.
What I take from the saying is that the NBA has offensive talent at an all time high and what is going to be the difference is the commitment to defense.