Hi Vez, just FYI, detent torque actually refers to the torque required to spin the shaft when the motor is completely unpowered. Whereas holding torque refers to when the motor is powered but not commanded to move. Detent torque is useful in situations where the motor can be constantly loaded, for example, the z-motors which have to always support the mass of the bed, even when the power is off.
This is absolutly insane, I have been loving all my Speedy Power motors, cannot wait to get my hands on some of these! Finally a reason to upgrade to 48V...
I have a heavily modified voron 2.4 with all CNC parts and 4wd with liquid cooled motors and goliath with hextrudort low plus watercooled. And silicone spacers between all motors with gates and runice motion parts. It makes almost no noise and can run as fast as his vzbot, plus it can print PEEK.
It's like the Ferrari 812 Superfast. The whole auto community laughed at the name, and then they heard it, and drove it, and all of a sudden the name wasn't so dumb, LOL!
Dayumnnn that is fast! And i print at 200 on one and 250mm/s on the other of my two built printers! Soon building a voron 2.4 (still did not finish the 450mm3 VZ bot, sorry Simon) i have 2 of Nema 17 / 60mm long motors for it, will report back what those can do. Thank you.
In my experience, it's very hard to avoid those noisy feedrates other than keep below them since at some angles and for arcs the motor is bound to hit that resonant RPM at some point even if you go way above it in feedrate.
Since no one said that until now, I'll say it: this motor is just LDO's version of the QSH4218-47-28-040 stepper motor made by Trinamic (yep, the same company that make the popular TMC stepper drivers). The specs of them both are really, really close if you look at both datasheets. Btw, companies should use Trinamic's datasheets as their guide, the sheer amount of information you can read on them is amazing, you can learn A LOT about stepper motors reading them. As long as LDO's motor prices are lower than Trinamic's ones (depending on where you look they cost from $60 to over $70 each. Ouch.), they look very promising.
@@alexeyderiy7932 My comment was exactly about the Trinamic motors, I'm yet to see how much the LDO ones cost. EDIT: so far I've found just one store in the UK (F3DM) with them on pre-sale for £23. That's a VERY good price.
wow!!... I have not seen the vz builds before now... yes I have been under a rock.... that is sick as. I can't believe how good that print is given the speed. just shows everything there is stiff as.... Nuts!... thanks for the intro
@@Vez3D Already have CoreXY printers for now 2 Vorons 2.4. And why not Vzbot. Well since I saw standart K3 I fell in love for the XY cross rail look. Edit: But speaking of Vzbot stuff would like to use your extruder and possibly even your hotend for the K3+ so it would be atleast partially Vzbot :)
@@Vez3D Cool. Actually didnt know this. Do I remember correctly you mentioned that there will be just the extuder gears for sale in some prior video . Im I right ?
Hi, Simon! Motors are very impresive! That low resistance and inductance just UNBELIVABLE! On 18:50 you printed this orange part with the Lines (Cura) or Rectilinear (Prusa) infil pattern, right! You have to try to increase the infill line width to 0.6 or even more. If the line width is lower that 0.6mm than your infill layers are not bonding to the layer beneath. With 0.6mm+ line width you will get solid infill - MUCH stronger!
Hi Vez, I think you can improve deceleration by adding resistor to power supply (breaking resistor). stepper motors generate electricity while decelerating and if this electricity has no place to go than the bus voltage increases resulting poor breaking power.
That is interesting that motors makes additional vibrations at some range of speeds. Interesting to determine what speeds produce the least noise / vibrations. these are the 1st LDO motors I have seen that have connector plugs on the motors, Some motors the wires are physically wired in. Especially on small Extruder motors. This makes it hard to swap them out without rewiring the whole cable harness back the the control board.
For high temperature rated motors, you will not see connectors on the motor since none of the common connectors hold up to high temperatures. A lot of 3d printers use the high temperature motors, especially on the toolhead and anything inside the chamber.
@@Vez3D i tnink I might have read somewhere that ldo puts the actual max current on their data sheets instead of whatever the standard is, so they’re cape able of continuous 2.8a, but that might just be for the AH high temp versions
Do you use 16microsteps for Max torque? I’ve heard conflicting info on whether higher numbers dips the torque but you’d be the one to have tested this vez
15:00 those vibrations at low speed can be a deal breaker no? Considering that the printer needs to slowdown into those speeds, before it speeds back up.
Making me want to change my steppers again. I do have a delta that could take advantage of my current vzbot motors... and my current delta motors would be fine on my currently stock flsun SR... hmm now to convince my wife of this.
The Voron Trident Kit I bought from Formbot end of 2021 came with Moons MS17HD6P4200 steppers. I was comparing it with these 2 LDO motors and it's doesn't look too bad. Maybe I don't need to upgrade to the Speedy motors.
Honestly, you would mainly need to upgrade if you're approaching the limits of what your current motors can do. That's not really the case for most users.
I put these in my Voron and I‘m still not shure at what current to run them. They seem to need at least 1.2A or they will stall. But even then they get really hot to the touch.
You should test these at different voltages & currents, the specs are kinda implying that they are high voltage motors. Might not work as well at 12 or 24v.
Different voltages don’t change how much voltage gets to motors, it’s just to overcome the back emf from the motors. Running them on 48v won’t mean the motors are getting 48v
@@tadhgd350 exactly, well at 2000mm/s it sure plays an effect tho, i doubt they can reach these speeds with enough torque at 24V or even reach that at all, and they technically DO see 48V all the time, but due to the PWM stepper drivers its like its seeing a lower voltage, kinda like EV motors actually see the whole battery voltage the whole time, albeit in small short peaks/switches no matter wether it's at 10km/h or 250 current however will play a large role in the acceleration
@@tadhgd350 It affects how much back EMF it can handle. Higher voltages offer much higher torques & speeds, and the motor inductance & resistance basically tells you is it suited for the voltage/current you have available. He is running i think 48v drivers that can push out 5a or something like that, its quite marginal setup.
Very nice for stepper motors in open loop, but you should be able to achieve the same results by using better drivers and higher voltages with almost any other stepper. As far as vibration at low speeds, look at the current waveform in the phases with an oscilloscope. I think you should be able to solve that problem by adjusting the drivers. I still prefer BLDC servos, or at least running hybrid stepper motors in FOC mode at ~96V. Edit: I'm getting 125m/s^2 acceleration with my 240V 180W AC servos, silent at all speeds, no vibration or artifacts at any speed. They have 17 bit optical encoders, showing maximum following error of 0.5° at peak acceleration and no following error at normal operating accelerations. I can further reduce that following error with additional tuning, but I haven't bothered because it's imperceptible as it is. The best part is I never have to worry about missing steps or input shaping and and all that. Since the load characteristics are very well defined and relatively static, the tuning is _very_ easy and everything works as expected.
We are the R&D manufacturer of stepper motor drives in China. Our products include open-loop drives, closed-loop drives, and fieldbus drives. We welcome bulk orders.
@@Vez3D ok thank you, running them at 2 AMPs but cant get better performance out of them, like the 2504 delivers. dont know what happens, thanks anyway
@@HelgeKeck I had a similar experience, then I learned that my TMC2209's have an Amperage cap (I couldn't find an exact number but somewhere between 1.2 to 1.7A). I switched them out for TMC5160s and am now seeing performance in line with this video (35k accel - 700mm/sec) - I'm running a 24V system..
so presumably these new model will be called 42STH48 2804AC ? ...but will ldo also be working on a higher temperature MAC version of these? ... that might be called 42STH48 2804MAC ?
Recently put some E3D 0.9 high torque in my printer, but they are noisier than my old aliexpress 1.8. Would like to give these new LDOs a try. Or what are the most silent NEMA 17 stepper motors?
I agree with the E3D 0.9 high torques... Running those in myt V-Core 3 at 48v and they are noisy AF. Recently got LDO's (speedy), to try quiet it down a little... Now Vez shows these 😛
Hey Simon, do you know how the recommended max accel is calculated on your shaper graphs? You had like 64k in X and 45k in Y. The highest value I've got in mine was like 20k. Does it calculate that from the noise it picks up? I'm trying to go faster and can't figure out what is holding me back
I would worry as an objective the quality with excellence instead of speed, because after the object without reaching excellence there will be reminding you that it became fast but not well done.
You should also explain to people that you are not printing at 300m/s on that small part. Is this 2014? Nobody is falling for that anymore. Remember when everyone was printing at 500m/s? lol
THIS VIDEO IS SPONSORED BY LDO ! (But I am totally free to express my opinion, good or bad on these. So you get my honest thought about them)
Different mix of copper to (insert conductive metal) ratio in the windings ya think?
Can you do a couple short clips of the vez printing the super overhang prints?
Link to these?
@@Mikehatespigs not yet for sell
@@odeball22 what is that? Link?
Hi Vez, just FYI, detent torque actually refers to the torque required to spin the shaft when the motor is completely unpowered. Whereas holding torque refers to when the motor is powered but not commanded to move.
Detent torque is useful in situations where the motor can be constantly loaded, for example, the z-motors which have to always support the mass of the bed, even when the power is off.
Oh i didnt know that. Thanks
This is absolutly insane, I have been loving all my Speedy Power motors, cannot wait to get my hands on some of these! Finally a reason to upgrade to 48V...
Holy crap, that acceleration is nuts!
The printer looks so relaxed considering the speeds. If you even tried to to that on a voron 2.4/triden the whole room would shake haha. Amazing
well, this thing is bolted to the wall :P
Try bolt voron to the wall 😁
I have a heavily modified voron 2.4 with all CNC parts and 4wd with liquid cooled motors and goliath with hextrudort low plus watercooled. And silicone spacers between all motors with gates and runice motion parts. It makes almost no noise and can run as fast as his vzbot, plus it can print PEEK.
How did you mount the extruder and hot end? I'm looking at doing the same and getting rid of stealth burner. Cheers! @@catnipaddict126
@@jamesm3268 I just designed it myself and sent it to JLCPCB to be cnc machined from aluminum
It's like the Ferrari 812 Superfast. The whole auto community laughed at the name, and then they heard it, and drove it, and all of a sudden the name wasn't so dumb, LOL!
Please do more tests if they are conclusive in a positive way , then LDO should really sell them, still waiting on the other launches :D keep it up
Oh they will sell them :)
Dayumnnn that is fast! And i print at 200 on one and 250mm/s on the other of my two built printers! Soon building a voron 2.4 (still did not finish the 450mm3 VZ bot, sorry Simon) i have 2 of Nema 17 / 60mm long motors for it, will report back what those can do.
Thank you.
Awesome results, your progress is very inspiring! Keep up the great work and keep experimenting.
In my experience, it's very hard to avoid those noisy feedrates other than keep below them since at some angles and for arcs the motor is bound to hit that resonant RPM at some point even if you go way above it in feedrate.
Thats true.. but on the slicer in straight lines you can avoid them as much as possible where its possible
Since no one said that until now, I'll say it: this motor is just LDO's version of the QSH4218-47-28-040 stepper motor made by Trinamic (yep, the same company that make the popular TMC stepper drivers). The specs of them both are really, really close if you look at both datasheets. Btw, companies should use Trinamic's datasheets as their guide, the sheer amount of information you can read on them is amazing, you can learn A LOT about stepper motors reading them.
As long as LDO's motor prices are lower than Trinamic's ones (depending on where you look they cost from $60 to over $70 each. Ouch.), they look very promising.
Trinamic also cost around 70$
@@alexeyderiy7932 My comment was exactly about the Trinamic motors, I'm yet to see how much the LDO ones cost.
EDIT: so far I've found just one store in the UK (F3DM) with them on pre-sale for £23. That's a VERY good price.
wow!!... I have not seen the vz builds before now... yes I have been under a rock.... that is sick as. I can't believe how good that print is given the speed. just shows everything there is stiff as.... Nuts!... thanks for the intro
Happy holidays dude. Looking forward to seeing more amazing mods! Can't wait till I can get all the bits to do your build :)
Those steppers almost have a musical quality to them.
Stop making me want to upgrade when my current parts haven't even arrived yet.
I had to double check I wasn't watching at 2x speed when you starting printing with those motors. It looks absolutely unreal
Cant wait to build my K3+ with these beasts.
Why not a VzBoT? :p
@@Vez3D Already have CoreXY printers for now 2 Vorons 2.4. And why not Vzbot. Well since I saw standart K3 I fell in love for the XY cross rail look.
Edit:
But speaking of Vzbot stuff would like to use your extruder and possibly even your hotend for the K3+ so it would be atleast partially Vzbot :)
@Jiřík Adam there is now a sherpa micro cnc with my gears. Same extruder but with sherpa body. So its bolton to K3
@@Vez3D Cool. Actually didnt know this. Do I remember correctly you mentioned that there will be just the extuder gears for sale in some prior video . Im I right ?
Looking forward to trying them on my machine with 10mm lead ball screws. Now I just need to find the motors in stock somewhere.
Hi, Simon!
Motors are very impresive! That low resistance and inductance just UNBELIVABLE!
On 18:50 you printed this orange part with the Lines (Cura) or Rectilinear (Prusa) infil pattern, right!
You have to try to increase the infill line width to 0.6 or even more. If the line width is lower that 0.6mm than your infill layers are not bonding to the layer beneath. With 0.6mm+ line width you will get solid infill - MUCH stronger!
I need a holiday after watching those speeds! Happy holidays. 🥃
Beast mode... Engaged!!! Fantastic video Vez!
Hi Vez, I think you can improve deceleration by adding resistor to power supply (breaking resistor). stepper motors generate electricity while decelerating and if this electricity has no place to go than the bus voltage increases resulting poor breaking power.
What resistor I need to use ?
How could you put your vacation ahead of us! Lol. Kidding, enjoy you time away
Holy smokes!! That is crazy fast and so clean.
Getting ready for that 30000 subscriber video I see...
That is interesting that motors makes additional vibrations at some range of speeds.
Interesting to determine what speeds produce the least noise / vibrations.
these are the 1st LDO motors I have seen that have connector plugs on the motors, Some motors the wires are physically wired in. Especially on small Extruder motors. This makes it hard to swap them out without rewiring the whole cable harness back the the control board.
For high temperature rated motors, you will not see connectors on the motor since none of the common connectors hold up to high temperatures. A lot of 3d printers use the high temperature motors, especially on the toolhead and anything inside the chamber.
What if you bump the current to 2.4amps and try for 3000mm/s?
Iirc ldo motors says even speedy motors are fine on 2.4 amps
I just tried... no issue.. it reaches 3000 ;) could even bump accel a bit more .. like 47k
@@Vez3D i tnink I might have read somewhere that ldo puts the actual max current on their data sheets instead of whatever the standard is, so they’re cape able of continuous 2.8a, but that might just be for the AH high temp versions
it will not be possible to completely exclude from 90 to 105 mm / s. there are also diagonal movements and circular movements
Completely no.. but you can slice at speeds that will avoid it as much as possible where you can
Do you use 16microsteps for Max torque? I’ve heard conflicting info on whether higher numbers dips the torque but you’d be the one to have tested this vez
form my testing it loses a bit of torque when you increase ms
This is a good time to get into Vez/ unicorn speed!
I’ve got this on my Longmill CNC machine
15:00 those vibrations at low speed can be a deal breaker no?
Considering that the printer needs to slowdown into those speeds, before it speeds back up.
Any idea how much will those be?
Typical 2504AC are now about 15 bucks on RatRig. Will those be like 25 bucks a pop?
Making me want to change my steppers again. I do have a delta that could take advantage of my current vzbot motors... and my current delta motors would be fine on my currently stock flsun SR... hmm now to convince my wife of this.
Very exciting! A bit scary.
5:40 what caused the printer to stop when it reaches the max capacity of the motor? Stall detection?
The Voron Trident Kit I bought from Formbot end of 2021 came with Moons MS17HD6P4200 steppers. I was comparing it with these 2 LDO motors and it's doesn't look too bad. Maybe I don't need to upgrade to the Speedy motors.
Honestly, you would mainly need to upgrade if you're approaching the limits of what your current motors can do. That's not really the case for most users.
Mec, ils sont fous ces moteurs..
Might reserve my 4wd update for those.. 😶🌫️
what is the max current you can set on a stepper driver for the 42sth48-2804ah? is it 2.8A or 2.8*0.707 = 1.98 A?
I put these in my Voron and I‘m still not shure at what current to run them. They seem to need at least 1.2A or they will stall. But even then they get really hot to the touch.
@timha4102 i run them at 2.4amp but i watercool them. With no watercool you can run them easy at 2amp (if your driver allows for that)
@@Vez3D Thanks! I just realised that my93W power supply is not enough to run them at those currents. I‘ll need to get a 200W version.
thats impressive!!
You should test these at different voltages & currents, the specs are kinda implying that they are high voltage motors. Might not work as well at 12 or 24v.
Different voltages don’t change how much voltage gets to motors, it’s just to overcome the back emf from the motors. Running them on 48v won’t mean the motors are getting 48v
@@tadhgd350 exactly, well at 2000mm/s it sure plays an effect tho, i doubt they can reach these speeds with enough torque at 24V or even reach that at all, and they technically DO see 48V all the time, but due to the PWM stepper drivers its like its seeing a lower voltage, kinda like EV motors actually see the whole battery voltage the whole time, albeit in small short peaks/switches no matter wether it's at 10km/h or 250
current however will play a large role in the acceleration
@@tadhgd350 It affects how much back EMF it can handle. Higher voltages offer much higher torques & speeds, and the motor inductance & resistance basically tells you is it suited for the voltage/current you have available. He is running i think 48v drivers that can push out 5a or something like that, its quite marginal setup.
@@tadhgd350 What im trying to say, is that these motors might not be as well suited for 12-24v systems with under 2amp drivers.
@@Nobody-Nowhere he said he ran 2.25a in the video
From past knowledge I know he’s using tmc5160 drivers on 48v. Those are good till like 3.8 amps
Very nice for stepper motors in open loop, but you should be able to achieve the same results by using better drivers and higher voltages with almost any other stepper. As far as vibration at low speeds, look at the current waveform in the phases with an oscilloscope. I think you should be able to solve that problem by adjusting the drivers.
I still prefer BLDC servos, or at least running hybrid stepper motors in FOC mode at ~96V.
Edit: I'm getting 125m/s^2 acceleration with my 240V 180W AC servos, silent at all speeds, no vibration or artifacts at any speed. They have 17 bit optical encoders, showing maximum following error of 0.5° at peak acceleration and no following error at normal operating accelerations. I can further reduce that following error with additional tuning, but I haven't bothered because it's imperceptible as it is.
The best part is I never have to worry about missing steps or input shaping and and all that. Since the load characteristics are very well defined and relatively static, the tuning is _very_ easy and everything works as expected.
I run the best driver possible and 48v. I too prefer bldc..but its wayyyy more expensive
Copied some of your parts from your list for my flsun sr 😁 maybe some 48v parts will push some speed out of it.
sry,, have already changed my stepper motor magnet in the super magnet power wow!!
Je pense que c'est le moment de battre le record du benchy le plus rapide
We are the R&D manufacturer of stepper motor drives in China. Our products include open-loop drives, closed-loop drives, and fieldbus drives. We welcome bulk orders.
with how many AMPs are you driving that motor?
I went all the way up to 2.3 with no issue. But daily driving at 2.0amps now
@@Vez3D ok thank you, running them at 2 AMPs but cant get better performance out of them, like the 2504 delivers. dont know what happens, thanks anyway
@@HelgeKeck I had a similar experience, then I learned that my TMC2209's have an Amperage cap (I couldn't find an exact number but somewhere between 1.2 to 1.7A). I switched them out for TMC5160s and am now seeing performance in line with this video (35k accel - 700mm/sec) - I'm running a 24V system..
Is it possible to increase the ramp up to full speed, and slow down so that it stays at full speed longer
Just when I ordered the speedy motors😂
@Vez3D
Would it be possible to make a smaller version of this? Like 280/280 so it would fit in an Ikea PAX :D?
so presumably these new model will be called 42STH48 2804AC ? ...but will ldo also be working on a higher temperature MAC version of these? ... that might be called 42STH48 2804MAC ?
Recently put some E3D 0.9 high torque in my printer, but they are noisier than my old aliexpress 1.8. Would like to give these new LDOs a try. Or what are the most silent NEMA 17 stepper motors?
I agree with the E3D 0.9 high torques... Running those in myt V-Core 3 at 48v and they are noisy AF. Recently got LDO's (speedy), to try quiet it down a little... Now Vez shows these 😛
@@NeoAcheron are the speedy silent?
really nice
I have issues with low speed resonance on a v0.1, but i still don’t understand what causes it.
Sorry for offtop, but how high is the chamber temp with this setup? How is extruder motor holding this out?
Did they give estimated release date?
Where these test done at 24v or 48v?
48
What voltage is it? 48v?
Thats nice! But how much will these cost ?
Hey Simon, do you know how the recommended max accel is calculated on your shaper graphs? You had like 64k in X and 45k in Y. The highest value I've got in mine was like 20k. Does it calculate that from the noise it picks up? I'm trying to go faster and can't figure out what is holding me back
If you don't know by now he's got extra stability from having his printer bolted to the wall
Hi Vez, what are your thoughts on close loop steppers?
hi, I'm researching which motor is best for my extruder, LDO or Moons,? I use direct extrusión. need lightweigth😊
they are both good honestly
@@Vez3D ok, but if you need chose? same spec
Hello the motors are conected to 24v?.
Very interestings your videos
48v
And which run current are you using? Its no risk to broke motors?
@@vinokuax1097 2.4 i think
I would worry as an objective the quality with excellence instead of speed, because after the object without reaching excellence there will be reminding you that it became fast but not well done.
Do we get a new intro every Video? 😋
How do you tune/know what to set sqv to?
Are these out anywhere yet? Would love to get 4 of them for AWD :>
Do anyopne know when we can get this motor?
Hey do you think there would be much of a difference between the two at 24v?
Ther should be a difference even at 24v
I just want ones without VFAs...
With full steps you would have more torque available
Where can I buy them?
Update on these motors?
What’s the part number?
next motor will be..... Super duper mega power
haha
Впечетляет.
Do you have the P/N of those new motors?
Looks to be visible on the datasheet shown at 1:71
Man, I have so many 2504s this makes me sad lol
Nooooo Vez why are you ruining my speeedypowers for me??
cOULD I ORDER FROM YOU READY BUILD 3D PRINTER ?
No aorry
@@Vez3D What means No Aorry ? can you sell or not?
why is it unfortunate for you to go on vacation?...
Hehe i am passionate and workaholic. So i miss my passion when I leave on vacation haha
1st
imagine using servo motors
Yup..but servos are way more expensive
ok. great. Now find and extruder that would cope with the speed of these motors🤪
Goliath and Vz-HextrudORT ;)
First 😅
Cool channel and all, but there is nothing remarkable about that motor, nobody us going to as much effort as you to have a shiity print.
You should also explain to people that you are not printing at 300m/s on that small part. Is this 2014? Nobody is falling for that anymore. Remember when everyone was printing at 500m/s? lol
Hmm just that you call them moters, it has nothing to do with a moter. Its a stepper moter, and the stepper driver is everything for at stepper motor.
Not sure I follow what you mean. Do you mean my prononciation is wrong? And dont worry I know what a stepper motor and a driver is.
Hey @ldomotorsjason3488 let me get a couple of those 😁
they are not ready yet
@@Vez3D I know, I'm still happy with some preproduction samples 😁
I already emailed him
What’s the part number?