Be careful, remember...the depths of the ocean is ulmo's turf. I hope you would have a good explanation for him when he finds you exploring his yard...🧜🏼♂️😡💢💢💢
News report: 5 local hobbits and 1 man as the captain died in the submarine during the exploration of the sunken city of Beleriand. It was said that the submarine imploded and killed all the passengers below.
it's so sad what happened to Beleriand. When i read the passages, i teared up. It's as if a part of me sunk with it, never to be recovered again. Probably due to how much history takes place there and how much detail and love Tolkien put in describing it that when it gets irrevocably destroyed, you feel shattered aswell.
Must've been some pretty epic magic being flung around to sink an entire region underwater. The Elves of the 1st Age fought Morgoth right back to his castle gates, and that didn't require the submerging of a decent part of a continent.
my guess is that Morgoth was putting all his magic into Beleriand and the Valar Sunk it to prevent its spread to the rest of middle Earth. In Morgoth's Ring its said that Morgoth spent much of his essence trying to dominate the Earth its self.
Whenever the Valar gets directly involved in a conflict, bad shit happens. First it was Utumno, then Beleriand. It is also probably the reason why they called daddy for help when the Numenorean armada landed in Valinor. It would have wreaked havoc on the Undying lands, and it is doubtful if the elves of Valinor could have defeated them on their own.
When Earendal personally his plea for help for the remaining Elves and Free Men in Beleriand to Manwe most, if not all, of the Valar went over to Beleriand along with a very large Elvish army and many of the Maiar led by Eonwe and they personally fought Morgoth (I do believe that Tulkas kicked Morgoth's arse too).
Just a thought, but perhaps Tol Morwen being spared is because of Turin's grave and is related to Tolkien's early idea that Turin would return during the Dagor Dagorath to kill Morgoth
More of Beleriand was hinted to have survived than what is seen in the Third Age maps, only to have drowned in the Fall of Numenor. This is rarely brought up. Lindon in particular had more of Ossiriand than was mentioned. Other mountaintops such as what was part of the Ered Wethrin/Ered Lomin ranges or perhaps even Taur-en-Faroth, speculatively, might have survived for this time. The Isle of Balar is a particular curiosity. It is unlikely that it saw any direct fighting. It is likely (though not directly stated) that its role as a refugee camp would have continued through the War of Wrath - obviously noncombatants would have needed somewhere to stay in the cataclysmic upheaval of the land. It would have been an ideal launching off point for the Edain going to Numenor. There is every chance that Balar might have survived into the Second Age. But, like so much of the Legendarium, its fate is not elaborated on. Another question is the drowning of the Great Gulf, the draining of the Sea of Helcar (and, presumably, the loss of Cuivienen in the East), as well as the western shores of Harad that were drowned. None of these regions saw direct fighting. One would figure that a cataclysm that could upheave three continents would produce drastic outcomes for the entirety of Middle Earth, rather than just (mostly) the westernmost parts of it. Was it intended that these regions were also fought over? Or did it simply become such that Tolkien planned on retconning these aspects of his crude early world map (the Ambarkana map V)? Helcar is rarely mentioned in the later writings. Harad's coastline is, but once and briefly. One problem as such is that there was never a formal Second Age map beyond the outline of Numenor. All Second Age maps are using extrapolations of Tolkien's Third Age maps. This is why they don't reflect the land changes that would have followed the Drowning of Numenor such as a reduced Bay of Belfalas or a greater Lindon. We have no frame of reference for what these continental outlines would have looked like, barring the fact that they were mentioned in writing. Not to mention the extrapolation of round to flat (unless you take the stance that it was always round, as tentatively probed by JRR in his latest life - but this has many issues of its own to deal with). For that matter, all Third Age world maps are *also* using extrapolations - of the Ambarkana Map V which has I have noted was extremely early and crude. This is why Karen Wynn Fonstad was unwilling to produce a Third Age world map in her Atlas (yet, was willing to produce a Second Age one? Both have the same issues - lack of knowledge of the shapes of continents vis a vis the Drowning of Numenor, projection of flat to round and round to flat). If you eliminate Ambarkana Map V we know perilously little about the shape of the world beyond Beleriand + the maps seen in LoTR. How much survived the two great sunderings of the First and Second Ages? How much changed? What happened to the Dark Lands and the Lands of the Sun? What was the shape of the 'New Lands' after the Changing of the World? What were the 'Empty Lands' cast back by Illuvatar (oftentimes speculated to be the Dark Lands, but never confirmed)? What happened to ice sheets like the Helcaraxe (the Mariner's Wife contains some curious hints toward ice at the poles...)? Did any other rivers of Ossiriand survive the War of Wrath (we see what looks like it might be the remnant of Gelion draining into the unnamed bay of Forlond)? What happened to Tol Galen, or the treasures at the bed of Ascar? Were they recovered by the elves of Lindon, either from its drained bed or the Gulf of Lune? How deep was the seabed of drowned Beleriand? How deep was it in the Third Age after the bending of the world/Fall of Numenor? Would it have been possible to dive into the ruins of Gondolin using pre-industrial pearl diver's techniques? What was the latitude of Numenor (speculated to be around 40 degrees north but never confirmed)? How much of the eastern shoreline of Middle-Earth really survived intact through the two great upheavals? Maps of the Second and Third Age show it almost exactly as Ambarkana Map V showed it but it's unlikely to have remained as such through the two great upheavals. In particular the Drowning of Numenor was said to have impacted the whole world's coastline and this area in general is extremely underdeveloped both in writing and in map. We don't know. And this makes projects like attempts at recreating Middle Earth in other mediums or in adaptations very difficult to say the least! There's simply not enough material from the author about the geology of Middle Earth beyond the parts most relevant to the direct narratives he was telling.
I do not think that is true. Tol Fuin would have been part of the Western Isles, also known as the Northern Isles to Gondor, but Great Isles as well. And in the HoMe5 we are explicably told that it was there "where the fleets were built in which the Elves of Middle-earth set sail into the West". This basically means that there were many ship-havens and ports there, that requires a large population to support their cities, hence they were settled by the Elves of Lindon as well. Had there been any foul creatures of Melkor's or Ungoliant's works, they must have been all exterminated. And, well, this is after the War of Wrath, so this would have been a children's play for the Elves, an they might have even been wiped out by the Host of the Valar anyways.
I’ve never thought so depressingly about the sinking of Beleriand before! I never thought of the specific sites that are now either destroyed and drowned, or possibly even retain(some of)their former glory, but forever hidden from ever being looked upon again, as if they were never more than a dream(or part of a book). Thinking of the almost unimaginable craftsmanship and beauty of the thousand caves, and the imposing regal splendor of the hidden city that was the sole holdout from Morgoth for so long. The fountain where both the bodies of Ecthelion and Gothmog lay entombed, the possibly still fully intact caves-now-tombs of the utumno, which may or may not still have spirits and evil roaming the flooded pits and halls, and remains of the crushed 3 peaked mountain of evil, possibly still covered by the bones, or whatever remains of ancalagon. A spot with runed stones, marking the site of the death and resting, of Turin, Niniel, and Glaurung. Tombs and resting places of some of the most important and influential beings of the age, which would probably still give a feeling of hope or dread, depending on who would potentially come upon them. All the lives and stories and remains of that impossible majesty and suffering that was experienced by those lands, now as much no longer part of the world, as the undying lands, and the timeless halls, gone from place and time, and with the parting of the last individuals who had experienced it, the proof that it ever happened at all! I would imagine that except for the few that had been alive in the 1st age, every elf, and, man, and even dwarf, would dream of visiting those last remaining spots of the first age, and would go as much as possible! Especially after the evil of “spider island” would be eradicated. Lol it’s not the right location but islands r known to move around, soooooo.....a huge island filled with deadly huge spiders and probably other horrific insects, and snakes, and maybe even aquatic creatures from the evil of the land washing into the surrounding waters, like invisible deadly swarms in the inviting shallows, tiny sneaky things that cruise where people hang out, and practically hypnotize people to offer their hands/fingers, and little deadly beach/shore monsters that pretend to be things that most people just can’t help touching and picking up(box jellies,blue ring octopi&cone snails)....i think we found what becomes Australia!!!!!
Terrific job, thanks. It just occurred to me that the destruction of Beleriand proves the Valar did fight themselves in the war, and not just watch while the Eldar of Aman did all the fighting. The Eldar wielded no such powers that could cause this kind of destruction. It could only have been caused by Morgoth and the Valar throwing cosmic level forces at each other.
The drowning of Beleriand is always a facinating subject. Tolkien uses this method of a long loss of better places and times, repeatedly in his works. It imbues Middle Earth with a sense of tragic history , and a longing for better days. One could argue it's an "Arthurian" device". The lands of Avalon or Atlantis in the west. Mind you one could also argue Avalon is like Aman., Numenor is Atlantean. My take on it was the war of wrath was so intense and so expansive that Beleriand was effectively destroyed and non redeemable. It's forest rivers lands so poisoned by Morgoth and damaged by conflict that Eru Illuvatar drowned it intentionally to cleanse it. I don't think the Valar had the power to sink it ,damage it yes. The further west one goes the deeper the drowning . You would only have to submerge parts of east Beleriand a few hundred feet. In the west it would be thousands of feet. Plus only ERU knows, was this a fore shadowing of the drowning of Numenor? A preparation to rip Aman right off Middle Earth? Only ERU Illuvatar knows.
Tolkien created Middle-earth before plate tectonics was established science. The consensus explanation among geologists, for why Lystrosaurus, Mesosaurus and others spanned South America, Africa and Antarctica was then not that the continents had a position near each other, but that there were land that had sunken and become ocean floor. I suspect JRR found some inspiration there, and from stories about the Deluge.
The real world parallels are intentional. On the Island of Tol Eressea there is the city of Avallóne, as in the early draft the mythology was intended as an origin story of the British Isles. Also, one of the elvish name of Numenor is Atalante, for similar reasons.
It is mentioned that it was bringing down Morgoth is what sunk the continent of Beleriand. So great was the Siege of Angband in the War of Wrath that it wrought devastation because of the powers of the Valar battling with Morgoth. All that was once known was destroyed as a result. Cataclysms occurred and all other manner of natural and unnatural destruction occurred. So the continent sunk. Buckling under the weight of it all and also because the Valar had no other choice in order to cleanse the land. It is prophesied that the Land of Beleriand would rise from the depths one day and be as new and beautiful as it once was...reuniting with the other lands of Middle Earth.
I think the remnants and broken places of ruined Beleriand would make a great D&D or Pathfinder adventuring mashup. Say, set sometime in the 4th age and the adventurers go around to the different place including the Blue Mountains and Havens to fight ancient evil and get treasure.
4:09 I always wondered how much of Mirkwood (Greenwood the Great) was corrupted when Sauron was in his Necromancer form. We see some glimpses in the movie when Bilbo and the Dwarves walk through it before they meet the Spiders
I'd also like to bring up that Tol Fuin's name need not be a suggestion that the island as it existed in the Third Age was still dangerous. It has been over six thousand years since Morgoth's dominion over the area! And the influence of the neighboring elves during that time was likely more than enough to clear the island of any lingering darkness. Sauron somehow slipping past Lindon (which he was never able to break into, even during the height of his power in the Second Age) to claim an island that had no relevance beyond the historical is also exceedingly unlikely. More likely its name was simply a matter of reusing the old name for the land - Taur-na-Fuin (which would also be a name for Mirkwood in the Third Age!) - rather than an indication of its current state. We have a tantalizing idea of what these islands might have looked like - and semi-confirmation that elves visited these islands - in the late poem 'The Last Ship': 'Then wither go ye, boatmen fair, down the river gliding?? To twilight and to secret lair in the great forest hiding? To northern isles and shores of stone on strong swans flying, by cold waves to dwell alone with the white gulls crying?' 'Northern' in this case being northern relative to the Bay of Belfalas - it is written from the perspective of a Gondorian woman. Tol Fuin and Himling/Himring are liable to be more reminiscent of their real world counterpart Iceland over what they looked like in the late First Age - cold, wooded at the coastlines, volcanic, interior filled with meadows of fragrant wildflowers. And, indeed, Iceland has many 'shores of stone' and 'cold waves' and 'white gulls' to this day.
I want the next "Middle Earth: Shadow of - " game to be a prequel. "Shadow of Beleriand". Taking place between Nirnaeth Arnoediad and War of Wrath. Think about it, we would get some... 70 year window? With Morgoth controlling almost all of Beleriand, with about 4 save heavens, and the game could culminate with fall of Nargothrond, then DLC could be about fall of Doriath, and second DLC about fall of Gondolin. But more importantly, we could finally see Beleriand, all those places that survived!
Only videogame can do justice to the first age scale, I would love a follow up to those games since they are pretty fun and have an interesting in the lore, for the most part.
I looked at this map. And realized that this is nearly identical to the map of my Minecraft realm, that takes inspiration from LoTR. My castle is called Angband My friend's tower is called Minis Morgal, my other friend's base is called Barador, and my sister's mountain base is called Minis Tirith. And the map is identical to Beleraind. Lol
In regards to Tol Fuin I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Numenoreans sent an expedition or two there and exterminated any remaining giant spiders and any other of Sauron's creatures remaining there.
Amazing video as always can you please make a video about dagor dagorath and about beleriand and nùmenor also valinor being connected to the world once again I would love to learn more about that
Imagine losing your home, but it's not just your home, it's the entire continent that you lived in, that's how the elves who survived from the first age into the second felt.
My question concerning the sinking of Belariand is how long did it take? We’re people from the west able to flee or were millions killed? It seems like it was slow but I don’t know. It’s been a while since I last read the Silmarillion and I haven’t read the books beyond it. If anyone knows please leave a comment.
Nothing in the text indicates that it happened straightaway. I think there was enough time to evacuate everyone that wished to leave. If I had to guess, Ulmo and Ossë might've held back the ocean long enough for everyone to leave.
@@DarthGandalfYT oh yeah, I like that. That sounds like how Tolkien would have written it if he had elaborated. Besides, it wouldn’t make sense for the Valar to save Middle Earth from the wrath of Melkor/Morgoth just to have millions sink in the broken aftermath.
@@DarthGandalfYT remember too that Morgoth had pretty much conquered all of Beleriand so only a few islands off the coast were still under control of the Elves.
Re: Estolad, the original land of the Edain in East Beleriand for example “But many Men remained in Estolad, and there was still a mingled people living there long years after, until in the ruin of Beleriand they were overwhelmed or fled back into the East.” The word ‘overwhelmed’ tells me that a significant number of Edain drowned in the flood and weren’t able to escape. Though perhaps they were the ones who didn’t heed warnings to escape when they still could…
It makes me wonder if it would have even been possible for the highly advanced second age Numenoreans to explore those islands or even under the waters (depending on how advanced they actually were). They could have found some awesome treasures that were again lost in there downfall.
Regarding the dwarf cities Belegost and Nogrod, I have read somewhere that Belegost would have been ruined, but Nogrod, being located farther south, was completely annihilated when the gulf of Lhun formed. I cannot remember the source, but it was likely one of the many versions of the writings from which the Silmarillion was compiled. The implication was that the dwarves of Nogrod, who played a significant part in the fall of Doriath, were almost completely destroyed.
It's possible. Belegost did remain on one of Tolkien's older maps, suggesting that it did survive in some form, whereas Nogrod was missing from the map.
Fortunately, an indigenous, multi-cultural population of black Harfoots and Maori-Hobbits was able to escape from Beleriand as well, so they could play a big role during the 2nd Age.
Yeah Nogrod and Belegost survived I did some research you align the SA and TA maps of the area with the FA map and dolmed is not sunk and it is where thorins halls now are
Good video. Say why couldn't the Valar prevent the destruction of Beleriand or save it? It seemed pretty intact during the majority of the War of Wrath to even the defeat of Ancalagon the Black until they captured Morgoth. What happened exactly and why couldn't the Valar use their powers to prevent that majority of the land's sinking?
I like to think the land was so devastated that nothing would grow there anymore and when the waters began to pour in, the Valar did nothing to stop it. Otherwise it makes it that much more tragic.
"For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trodden down; and Sirion was no more." That's the passage (a giant sentence) from the Silmarillion. It definitely paints a picture of Beleriand being completely devastated; to the point of where the ground had been ripped apart and natural formations had been entirely destroyed. It sounds like the entire region was beyond repair, and given that everything was destroyed, there was no real reason to attempt to save it.
@@thorshammer7883 I said this in another comment but Ulmo and Osse may have held back the waters long enough for everyone to evacuate. But doing nothing is kind of what the Valar do best...
@@thorshammer7883 Well it's, to me, indicated as being the result of the accursed oath taken by the Noldor that bound the fate of their people up with the Silmarils. After all they had become kinslayers, and voluntarily left the haven of the Valar in a vain quest to take back the jewels that Feanor sought so desperately. And it was their fault that Beleriand was dragged into their twisted fate. The Valar needn't have done anything at all, as their intent had been to shelter all the children of Illuvatar in Valinor, but they left of their own volition and in their own folly, but by mercy at the plea of Earendil, the Valar were moved to defeat Morgoth once and for all for the sake of those on Middle Earth. As for the destruction of Beleriand in the battle, it seems partially as emphasis for how mighty the battle was between the host of the Valar and Morgoth that the whole shape of the world was changed. How could they save it? Much of their energy they had already poured into the initial making of the world, and it is written that Melkor was the mightiest of the Valar. The destruction of Beleriand, then seems more like an inevitable effect of the two great powers clashing in a grand climax.
After Dagor Dagorath, I believe that the world is supposed to be completely broken and then remade to be as it was before Morgoth corrupted everything, but also include all the good things that existed afterwards. I think Numenor is supposed to "come back" again then as well.
The Dwarves and Elves mostly went east. The Men who fought against Morgoth sailed to the newly risen island of Numenor, and the Men who fought for Morgoth fled east.
I continually run into the problem of believability with Tolkien's works beyond TLotR/Hobbit. Because earlier time periods of M.E. were written after Hobbit, none of that history makes sense because we see none of it in LotR/Hobbit (Eru is not mentioned a single time!). None of his ages seem to relate to the world that Gandalf and Aragorn and Frodo inhabit.
The earlier ages were written, in one for form or another, long before the Hobbit (like 20 years before). There are several references to the First Age in the Hobbit and many in LotR. For example, in the Hobbit, the swords Orcrist, Glamdring and Sting are all revealed, by Elrond (himself a character from the First Age) to have been forged in Gondolin. In the Lord of the Rings there are references to Gil-Galad, Beren and Luthien and Earendil. The lands of Tasarinan (Nan Tathren), Ossiriand and Neldoreth are sung about by Treebeard. Galadriel refers, obliquely, to the Exile of the Noldor and the ban upon her from returning into the West (until she rejects the Ring). The entire matter of Arnor and Gondor and the Dunedain is tied to the events at the end of the First Age and the founding (and destruction) of Numenor. The crucial plot elements of the Palantir are specifically stated to have been brought by the Dunedain from Numenor (and before that from Tol Eressea). The balrog "of Morgoth". Grond, the battering ram used to break the gates of Minas Tirith was stated to have been named after "the hammer of the underworld" ie. Morgoth's hammer, that he wielded against Fingolfin. That's all just what springs to mind. There are countless more, if you look closely. But much of all this would be matters of ancient lore, not discussed or even known to the everyday common folk. How many times have you stood at a bus stop and overheard someone talking about Penda of Mercia or the Battle of Maldon, or even the official Roman withdrawal from Britain in 410AD?
Funnily enough, I actually checked for this before I wrote the script because I had the same idea from somewhere. But I couldn't find anything in the text that supported it.
Nothing indicates that Beleriand sank straightaway. It seems there was enough time for everyone to evacuate into what would become Lindon, and from there, Cirdan sailed the Edain to Numenor over a period of fifty years.
@@DarthGandalfYT Really? I was always under the impression, that based on the narration of the War of Wrath, Beleriand sunk in a very short time span. You see, the Kingdom of Lindon was founded in SA 2, along with the Grey Havens, which were on the Gulf of Lune, a direct product of the Sinking of Beleriand. Unless, I suppose, it sank during the War of Wrath, which may be the case, thinking of Maedhros' volcanic pitt.
We're not sure exactly, but the Silmarillion paints Beleriand as being so violently ripped apart that the ocean started rushing through great chasms in the land. If I had to guess, maybe the tectonic plates beneath became so unstable that the land literally began to disintegrate.
@@DarthGandalfYT Also Morgoth literally digging entire Maginot style bunkers and forts to contain host of Valar probably caused such devastation,especially after that host went ballistic on his forces.
Fourth Age: I’d open a diving scuba service to visit the sunken Beleriand ruins
Underrated comment.
Be careful, remember...the depths of the ocean is ulmo's turf. I hope you would have a good explanation for him when he finds you exploring his yard...🧜🏼♂️😡💢💢💢
News report: 5 local hobbits and 1 man as the captain died in the submarine during the exploration of the sunken city of Beleriand. It was said that the submarine imploded and killed all the passengers below.
it's so sad what happened to Beleriand. When i read the passages, i teared up. It's as if a part of me sunk with it, never to be recovered again. Probably due to how much history takes place there and how much detail and love Tolkien put in describing it that when it gets irrevocably destroyed, you feel shattered aswell.
Must've been some pretty epic magic being flung around to sink an entire region underwater. The Elves of the 1st Age fought Morgoth right back to his castle gates, and that didn't require the submerging of a decent part of a continent.
It's definitely a bit puzzling. Might be worth a future Middle-earth Mysteries video.
my guess is that Morgoth was putting all his magic into Beleriand and the Valar Sunk it to prevent its spread to the rest of middle Earth. In Morgoth's Ring its said that Morgoth spent much of his essence trying to dominate the Earth its self.
Whenever the Valar gets directly involved in a conflict, bad shit happens. First it was Utumno, then Beleriand. It is also probably the reason why they called daddy for help when the Numenorean armada landed in Valinor. It would have wreaked havoc on the Undying lands, and it is doubtful if the elves of Valinor could have defeated them on their own.
Yes, which proves the Valar did fight in person. I've seen videos which claimed they just stood by and watched while the elves of Aman fought.
When Earendal personally his plea for help for the remaining Elves and Free Men in Beleriand to Manwe most, if not all, of the Valar went over to Beleriand along with a very large Elvish army and many of the Maiar led by Eonwe and they personally fought Morgoth (I do believe that Tulkas kicked Morgoth's arse too).
Just a thought, but perhaps Tol Morwen being spared is because of Turin's grave and is related to Tolkien's early idea that Turin would return during the Dagor Dagorath to kill Morgoth
Very likely.
More of Beleriand was hinted to have survived than what is seen in the Third Age maps, only to have drowned in the Fall of Numenor. This is rarely brought up. Lindon in particular had more of Ossiriand than was mentioned. Other mountaintops such as what was part of the Ered Wethrin/Ered Lomin ranges or perhaps even Taur-en-Faroth, speculatively, might have survived for this time. The Isle of Balar is a particular curiosity. It is unlikely that it saw any direct fighting. It is likely (though not directly stated) that its role as a refugee camp would have continued through the War of Wrath - obviously noncombatants would have needed somewhere to stay in the cataclysmic upheaval of the land. It would have been an ideal launching off point for the Edain going to Numenor. There is every chance that Balar might have survived into the Second Age. But, like so much of the Legendarium, its fate is not elaborated on.
Another question is the drowning of the Great Gulf, the draining of the Sea of Helcar (and, presumably, the loss of Cuivienen in the East), as well as the western shores of Harad that were drowned. None of these regions saw direct fighting. One would figure that a cataclysm that could upheave three continents would produce drastic outcomes for the entirety of Middle Earth, rather than just (mostly) the westernmost parts of it. Was it intended that these regions were also fought over? Or did it simply become such that Tolkien planned on retconning these aspects of his crude early world map (the Ambarkana map V)? Helcar is rarely mentioned in the later writings. Harad's coastline is, but once and briefly.
One problem as such is that there was never a formal Second Age map beyond the outline of Numenor. All Second Age maps are using extrapolations of Tolkien's Third Age maps. This is why they don't reflect the land changes that would have followed the Drowning of Numenor such as a reduced Bay of Belfalas or a greater Lindon. We have no frame of reference for what these continental outlines would have looked like, barring the fact that they were mentioned in writing. Not to mention the extrapolation of round to flat (unless you take the stance that it was always round, as tentatively probed by JRR in his latest life - but this has many issues of its own to deal with).
For that matter, all Third Age world maps are *also* using extrapolations - of the Ambarkana Map V which has I have noted was extremely early and crude. This is why Karen Wynn Fonstad was unwilling to produce a Third Age world map in her Atlas (yet, was willing to produce a Second Age one? Both have the same issues - lack of knowledge of the shapes of continents vis a vis the Drowning of Numenor, projection of flat to round and round to flat).
If you eliminate Ambarkana Map V we know perilously little about the shape of the world beyond Beleriand + the maps seen in LoTR. How much survived the two great sunderings of the First and Second Ages? How much changed? What happened to the Dark Lands and the Lands of the Sun? What was the shape of the 'New Lands' after the Changing of the World? What were the 'Empty Lands' cast back by Illuvatar (oftentimes speculated to be the Dark Lands, but never confirmed)? What happened to ice sheets like the Helcaraxe (the Mariner's Wife contains some curious hints toward ice at the poles...)? Did any other rivers of Ossiriand survive the War of Wrath (we see what looks like it might be the remnant of Gelion draining into the unnamed bay of Forlond)? What happened to Tol Galen, or the treasures at the bed of Ascar? Were they recovered by the elves of Lindon, either from its drained bed or the Gulf of Lune? How deep was the seabed of drowned Beleriand? How deep was it in the Third Age after the bending of the world/Fall of Numenor? Would it have been possible to dive into the ruins of Gondolin using pre-industrial pearl diver's techniques? What was the latitude of Numenor (speculated to be around 40 degrees north but never confirmed)? How much of the eastern shoreline of Middle-Earth really survived intact through the two great upheavals? Maps of the Second and Third Age show it almost exactly as Ambarkana Map V showed it but it's unlikely to have remained as such through the two great upheavals. In particular the Drowning of Numenor was said to have impacted the whole world's coastline and this area in general is extremely underdeveloped both in writing and in map.
We don't know. And this makes projects like attempts at recreating Middle Earth in other mediums or in adaptations very difficult to say the least! There's simply not enough material from the author about the geology of Middle Earth beyond the parts most relevant to the direct narratives he was telling.
"If you want to visit Gondolin in the Third Age you'd better bring some scuba gear. Or better yet, a submarine." That startled a laugh out of me.
I feel both informed and depressed....
Tolkien in a nutshell.
"Island full of giant, inbread, cannibalistic spiders"
Does anyone have the US airforces number? i need to borrow their AC-130's, all of them.
No need sir we have nukes! Any radiation poisoning to the surrounding area would be worth it.
@@TheMasonK Why not both?
@@joshthomas-moore2656 you’re right! Money’s not an object here. Sink the last of Beleriand into the sea.
I do not think that is true. Tol Fuin would have been part of the Western Isles, also known as the Northern Isles to Gondor, but Great Isles as well. And in the HoMe5 we are explicably told that it was there "where the fleets were built in which the Elves of Middle-earth set sail into the West". This basically means that there were many ship-havens and ports there, that requires a large population to support their cities, hence they were settled by the Elves of Lindon as well. Had there been any foul creatures of Melkor's or Ungoliant's works, they must have been all exterminated. And, well, this is after the War of Wrath, so this would have been a children's play for the Elves, an they might have even been wiped out by the Host of the Valar anyways.
I’ve never thought so depressingly about the sinking of Beleriand before! I never thought of the specific sites that are now either destroyed and drowned, or possibly even retain(some of)their former glory, but forever hidden from ever being looked upon again, as if they were never more than a dream(or part of a book). Thinking of the almost unimaginable craftsmanship and beauty of the thousand caves, and the imposing regal splendor of the hidden city that was the sole holdout from Morgoth for so long. The fountain where both the bodies of Ecthelion and Gothmog lay entombed, the possibly still fully intact caves-now-tombs of the utumno, which may or may not still have spirits and evil roaming the flooded pits and halls, and remains of the crushed 3 peaked mountain of evil, possibly still covered by the bones, or whatever remains of ancalagon. A spot with runed stones, marking the site of the death and resting, of Turin, Niniel, and Glaurung. Tombs and resting places of some of the most important and influential beings of the age, which would probably still give a feeling of hope or dread, depending on who would potentially come upon them. All the lives and stories and remains of that impossible majesty and suffering that was experienced by those lands, now as much no longer part of the world, as the undying lands, and the timeless halls, gone from place and time, and with the parting of the last individuals who had experienced it, the proof that it ever happened at all!
I would imagine that except for the few that had been alive in the 1st age, every elf, and, man, and even dwarf, would dream of visiting those last remaining spots of the first age, and would go as much as possible! Especially after the evil of “spider island” would be eradicated.
Lol it’s not the right location but islands r known to move around, soooooo.....a huge island filled with deadly huge spiders and probably other horrific insects, and snakes, and maybe even aquatic creatures from the evil of the land washing into the surrounding waters, like invisible deadly swarms in the inviting shallows, tiny sneaky things that cruise where people hang out, and practically hypnotize people to offer their hands/fingers, and little deadly beach/shore monsters that pretend to be things that most people just can’t help touching and picking up(box jellies,blue ring octopi&cone snails)....i think we found what becomes Australia!!!!!
Terrific job, thanks.
It just occurred to me that the destruction of Beleriand proves the Valar did fight themselves in the war, and not just watch while the Eldar of Aman did all the fighting. The Eldar wielded no such powers that could cause this kind of destruction. It could only have been caused by Morgoth and the Valar throwing cosmic level forces at each other.
Well duh lol that’s no mystery
The drowning of Beleriand is always a facinating subject. Tolkien uses this method of a long loss of better places and times, repeatedly in his works. It imbues Middle Earth with a sense of tragic history , and a longing for better days. One could argue it's an "Arthurian" device". The lands of Avalon or Atlantis in the west. Mind you one could also argue Avalon is like Aman., Numenor is Atlantean.
My take on it was the war of wrath was so intense and so expansive that Beleriand was effectively destroyed and non redeemable. It's forest rivers lands so poisoned by Morgoth and damaged by conflict that Eru Illuvatar drowned it intentionally to cleanse it.
I don't think the Valar had the power to sink it ,damage it yes.
The further west one goes the deeper the drowning . You would only have to submerge parts of east Beleriand a few hundred feet. In the west it would be thousands of feet.
Plus only ERU knows, was this a fore shadowing of the drowning of Numenor?
A preparation to rip Aman right off Middle Earth?
Only ERU Illuvatar knows.
Tolkien created Middle-earth before plate tectonics was established science. The consensus explanation among geologists, for why Lystrosaurus, Mesosaurus and others spanned South America, Africa and Antarctica was then not that the continents had a position near each other, but that there were land that had sunken and become ocean floor. I suspect JRR found some inspiration there, and from stories about the Deluge.
I think also because of his Catholic Roots , and the Biblical stories of the Tower of Babel - corrupt , fallen, impure, trying to reach into heaven.
The real world parallels are intentional. On the Island of Tol Eressea there is the city of Avallóne, as in the early draft the mythology was intended as an origin story of the British Isles.
Also, one of the elvish name of Numenor is Atalante, for similar reasons.
It is mentioned that it was bringing down Morgoth is what sunk the continent of Beleriand. So great was the Siege of Angband in the War of Wrath that it wrought devastation because of the powers of the Valar battling with Morgoth. All that was once known was destroyed as a result. Cataclysms occurred and all other manner of natural and unnatural destruction occurred. So the continent sunk. Buckling under the weight of it all and also because the Valar had no other choice in order to cleanse the land. It is prophesied that the Land of Beleriand would rise from the depths one day and be as new and beautiful as it once was...reuniting with the other lands of Middle Earth.
I was wondering about this just yesterday after I finished the Silmarillion. Great timing!
I think the remnants and broken places of ruined Beleriand would make a great D&D or Pathfinder adventuring mashup. Say, set sometime in the 4th age and the adventurers go around to the different place including the Blue Mountains and Havens to fight ancient evil and get treasure.
I feel like there would be lots of swimming involved.
I’m so glad you did this because I was actually wo if the Halls of Caranthir survived and are north of Lindon
4:09 I always wondered how much of Mirkwood (Greenwood the Great) was corrupted when Sauron was in his Necromancer form. We see some glimpses in the movie when Bilbo and the Dwarves walk through it before they meet the Spiders
I'd also like to bring up that Tol Fuin's name need not be a suggestion that the island as it existed in the Third Age was still dangerous. It has been over six thousand years since Morgoth's dominion over the area! And the influence of the neighboring elves during that time was likely more than enough to clear the island of any lingering darkness. Sauron somehow slipping past Lindon (which he was never able to break into, even during the height of his power in the Second Age) to claim an island that had no relevance beyond the historical is also exceedingly unlikely. More likely its name was simply a matter of reusing the old name for the land - Taur-na-Fuin (which would also be a name for Mirkwood in the Third Age!) - rather than an indication of its current state. We have a tantalizing idea of what these islands might have looked like - and semi-confirmation that elves visited these islands - in the late poem 'The Last Ship':
'Then wither go ye, boatmen fair,
down the river gliding??
To twilight and to secret lair
in the great forest hiding?
To northern isles and shores of stone
on strong swans flying,
by cold waves to dwell alone
with the white gulls crying?'
'Northern' in this case being northern relative to the Bay of Belfalas - it is written from the perspective of a Gondorian woman. Tol Fuin and Himling/Himring are liable to be more reminiscent of their real world counterpart Iceland over what they looked like in the late First Age - cold, wooded at the coastlines, volcanic, interior filled with meadows of fragrant wildflowers. And, indeed, Iceland has many 'shores of stone' and 'cold waves' and 'white gulls' to this day.
I want the next "Middle Earth: Shadow of - " game to be a prequel. "Shadow of Beleriand". Taking place between Nirnaeth Arnoediad and War of Wrath. Think about it, we would get some... 70 year window? With Morgoth controlling almost all of Beleriand, with about 4 save heavens, and the game could culminate with fall of Nargothrond, then DLC could be about fall of Doriath, and second DLC about fall of Gondolin. But more importantly, we could finally see Beleriand, all those places that survived!
write an email. seriously.
No one has the rights to content from the Silmarillion
Only videogame can do justice to the first age scale, I would love a follow up to those games since they are pretty fun and have an interesting in the lore, for the most part.
Can't. No legal rights to the first age. Besides until the woke agenda has been pushed back best they leave all Tolkien's works alone.
The names man. The names are so cool. Mountains, rivers, fortresses, cities, everything.
I've been looking forward to this
Again new lore, as always keep up the good work, cheers! ;)
It’s stuff like this that really shows both the beauty and tragedy of Arda.
Great content as always. Love the interesting topics you cover.
This just cleared up so much, thank you!
I looked at this map. And realized that this is nearly identical to the map of my Minecraft realm, that takes inspiration from LoTR. My castle is called Angband My friend's tower is called Minis Morgal, my other friend's base is called Barador, and my sister's mountain base is called Minis Tirith. And the map is identical to Beleraind. Lol
Seed?
@@josephmort4039 I'll go look
What's the seed to it? I would love to make a new world on it.
In regards to Tol Fuin I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Numenoreans sent an expedition or two there and exterminated any remaining giant spiders and any other of Sauron's creatures remaining there.
Giant inbred cannibal spider island sounds like a great d&d module.
That would would be amazing to take a mini sub and see what remained of the fair city of gondolin and of course doriath as well
Oh there it is! The obscure lore of the Blue Mountains!
I've always wondered this, thank you!
Amazing video as always can you please make a video about dagor dagorath and about beleriand and nùmenor also valinor being connected to the world once again I would love to learn more about that
Imagine losing your home, but it's not just your home, it's the entire continent that you lived in, that's how the elves who survived from the first age into the second felt.
"a field of glory never looks pretty"~Napoleon
You could use that submarine to search for the silmaril that was cast into the sea. Maybe Ulmo knows where it is.
“Giant inbred cannibal spider island”? Sounds like my basement…
My question concerning the sinking of Belariand is how long did it take? We’re people from the west able to flee or were millions killed? It seems like it was slow but I don’t know. It’s been a while since I last read the Silmarillion and I haven’t read the books beyond it. If anyone knows please leave a comment.
Nothing in the text indicates that it happened straightaway. I think there was enough time to evacuate everyone that wished to leave. If I had to guess, Ulmo and Ossë might've held back the ocean long enough for everyone to leave.
@@DarthGandalfYT oh yeah, I like that. That sounds like how Tolkien would have written it if he had elaborated. Besides, it wouldn’t make sense for the Valar to save Middle Earth from the wrath of Melkor/Morgoth just to have millions sink in the broken aftermath.
@@DarthGandalfYT remember too that Morgoth had pretty much conquered all of Beleriand so only a few islands off the coast were still under control of the Elves.
Re: Estolad, the original land of the Edain in East Beleriand for example “But many Men remained in Estolad, and there was still a mingled people living there long years after, until in the ruin of Beleriand they were overwhelmed or fled back into the East.” The word ‘overwhelmed’ tells me that a significant number of Edain drowned in the flood and weren’t able to escape. Though perhaps they were the ones who didn’t heed warnings to escape when they still could…
@@RMC1989 In this case, the "Ruin of Beleriand" refers to the chapter in the Silmarillion, which is the Dagor Bragollach.
Great video 👌
Great video
It makes me wonder if it would have even been possible for the highly advanced second age Numenoreans to explore those islands or even under the waters (depending on how advanced they actually were). They could have found some awesome treasures that were again lost in there downfall.
Dwarvish submarines!
Regarding the dwarf cities Belegost and Nogrod, I have read somewhere that Belegost would have been ruined, but Nogrod, being located farther south, was completely annihilated when the gulf of Lhun formed. I cannot remember the source, but it was likely one of the many versions of the writings from which the Silmarillion was compiled. The implication was that the dwarves of Nogrod, who played a significant part in the fall of Doriath, were almost completely destroyed.
It's possible. Belegost did remain on one of Tolkien's older maps, suggesting that it did survive in some form, whereas Nogrod was missing from the map.
If Sauron had managed to conqueror Lindon would he have sailed off to Tol Fuin for a little victory celebration in his old home?
That would be a strange little celebration.
I mean, all that water that was cleared for Númenor had to go somewhere :p
Bro I loved it
Probably Tol fuin was the place where Sauron was hidden until the awake in the second age
I always wondered what those islands were.
Everything about the first age just sucks me in every time....it makes the events of the 3rd seem like a picnic.
5:55 get that submarine! Imagine all the nifty magic swords and stuff down there!! LOL
Would love to explore the far out lands of Khand and south harad
Beleriand sinking makes so little sense I have to assume Tolkien made it up after he realized his earlier and later worlds just could be reconciled.
Would have been cool If Tolkien wrote more on Cannibalistic spider island.#Tol-Fuin
Shit, the pain of this video
Fortunately, an indigenous, multi-cultural population of black Harfoots and Maori-Hobbits was able to escape from Beleriand as well, so they could play a big role during the 2nd Age.
To be honest, I'd watch Lord of the Rings where all the Hobbits are recasted as Maoris.
@@DarthGandalfYT Maori would probably have been a good cast for the Druedain/Woses....
@@Sockenmodulator Jackson could've got away with that.
Yeah Nogrod and Belegost survived I did some research you align the SA and TA maps of the area with the FA map and dolmed is not sunk and it is where thorins halls now are
What if they loooked under the ocean would the ruins still be there?
This is so sad!!
what about Utumno it survived right?
Good video.
Say why couldn't the Valar prevent the destruction of Beleriand or save it? It seemed pretty intact during the majority of the War of Wrath to even the defeat of Ancalagon the Black until they captured Morgoth. What happened exactly and why couldn't the Valar use their powers to prevent that majority of the land's sinking?
I like to think the land was so devastated that nothing would grow there anymore and when the waters began to pour in, the Valar did nothing to stop it. Otherwise it makes it that much more tragic.
"For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trodden down; and Sirion was no more."
That's the passage (a giant sentence) from the Silmarillion. It definitely paints a picture of Beleriand being completely devastated; to the point of where the ground had been ripped apart and natural formations had been entirely destroyed. It sounds like the entire region was beyond repair, and given that everything was destroyed, there was no real reason to attempt to save it.
@@DarthGandalfYT
I still think they could have done more to save atleast a part of it. Instead they did nothing. I disapprove of that decision.
@@thorshammer7883 I said this in another comment but Ulmo and Osse may have held back the waters long enough for everyone to evacuate. But doing nothing is kind of what the Valar do best...
@@thorshammer7883 Well it's, to me, indicated as being the result of the accursed oath taken by the Noldor that bound the fate of their people up with the Silmarils. After all they had become kinslayers, and voluntarily left the haven of the Valar in a vain quest to take back the jewels that Feanor sought so desperately. And it was their fault that Beleriand was dragged into their twisted fate. The Valar needn't have done anything at all, as their intent had been to shelter all the children of Illuvatar in Valinor, but they left of their own volition and in their own folly, but by mercy at the plea of Earendil, the Valar were moved to defeat Morgoth once and for all for the sake of those on Middle Earth.
As for the destruction of Beleriand in the battle, it seems partially as emphasis for how mighty the battle was between the host of the Valar and Morgoth that the whole shape of the world was changed. How could they save it? Much of their energy they had already poured into the initial making of the world, and it is written that Melkor was the mightiest of the Valar. The destruction of Beleriand, then seems more like an inevitable effect of the two great powers clashing in a grand climax.
Yeah, I can see why people might be hesitant to explore and map out the island inhabited by giant inbred cannibal spiders.
How would Beleriand have compared in size to New England?
I wonder if Maglor still lives on Himling?
It's definitely possible.
Poignant.
I'm curious. Can these lands ever be raised from the depths? Why and how did an amazing place be destroyed anyways? It's a shame really..
After Dagor Dagorath, I believe that the world is supposed to be completely broken and then remade to be as it was before Morgoth corrupted everything, but also include all the good things that existed afterwards. I think Numenor is supposed to "come back" again then as well.
Now Guyladriel can swim across all Beleriand.
What happened to all the dwarves, men and elves when Beleriand was destroyed? Who escaped, and where did they go?
The Dwarves and Elves mostly went east. The Men who fought against Morgoth sailed to the newly risen island of Numenor, and the Men who fought for Morgoth fled east.
I continually run into the problem of believability with Tolkien's works beyond TLotR/Hobbit. Because earlier time periods of M.E. were written after Hobbit, none of that history makes sense because we see none of it in LotR/Hobbit (Eru is not mentioned a single time!). None of his ages seem to relate to the world that Gandalf and Aragorn and Frodo inhabit.
The earlier ages were written, in one for form or another, long before the Hobbit (like 20 years before).
There are several references to the First Age in the Hobbit and many in LotR.
For example, in the Hobbit, the swords Orcrist, Glamdring and Sting are all revealed, by Elrond (himself a character from the First Age) to have been forged in Gondolin.
In the Lord of the Rings there are references to Gil-Galad, Beren and Luthien and Earendil.
The lands of Tasarinan (Nan Tathren), Ossiriand and Neldoreth are sung about by Treebeard.
Galadriel refers, obliquely, to the Exile of the Noldor and the ban upon her from returning into the West (until she rejects the Ring).
The entire matter of Arnor and Gondor and the Dunedain is tied to the events at the end of the First Age and the founding (and destruction) of Numenor.
The crucial plot elements of the Palantir are specifically stated to have been brought by the Dunedain from Numenor (and before that from Tol Eressea).
The balrog "of Morgoth".
Grond, the battering ram used to break the gates of Minas Tirith was stated to have been named after "the hammer of the underworld" ie. Morgoth's hammer, that he wielded against Fingolfin.
That's all just what springs to mind.
There are countless more, if you look closely.
But much of all this would be matters of ancient lore, not discussed or even known to the everyday common folk.
How many times have you stood at a bus stop and overheard someone talking about Penda of Mercia or the Battle of Maldon, or even the official Roman withdrawal from Britain in 410AD?
Didn't the grave of Fingolfin survive? I am so sure I read that somewhere.
I think that fingolfins grave was destroyed, I’m sure I read somewhere that it stood over Gondolin until the world was changed.
Funnily enough, I actually checked for this before I wrote the script because I had the same idea from somewhere. But I couldn't find anything in the text that supported it.
When
Beleriand was sunk, how did people make it to other lands to the east or to Numenor?
Nothing indicates that Beleriand sank straightaway. It seems there was enough time for everyone to evacuate into what would become Lindon, and from there, Cirdan sailed the Edain to Numenor over a period of fifty years.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Really? I was always under the impression, that based on the narration of the War of Wrath, Beleriand sunk in a very short time span. You see, the Kingdom of Lindon was founded in SA 2, along with the Grey Havens, which were on the Gulf of Lune, a direct product of the Sinking of Beleriand. Unless, I suppose, it sank during the War of Wrath, which may be the case, thinking of Maedhros' volcanic pitt.
How on Arda did Beleriand sink? Did the Maiar go to Beleriand?
Yeah, not just the Maiar, but the Valar too. The fought a big war there with Morgoth and the side effect of that war was the land getting destroyed
Himling = The Faroe Islands?
Tol Fuin = Iceland?
Tol Morwen = Rockall?
How the a continent sink? That always confused me
We're not sure exactly, but the Silmarillion paints Beleriand as being so violently ripped apart that the ocean started rushing through great chasms in the land. If I had to guess, maybe the tectonic plates beneath became so unstable that the land literally began to disintegrate.
@@DarthGandalfYT 'Tis what happens when literal gods walk on the land and fight on it too.
@@DarthGandalfYT
That explanation makes me think of the Brother's War from Magic the Gathering.
Do you know of it?
@@DarthGandalfYT Also Morgoth literally digging entire Maginot style bunkers and forts to contain host of Valar probably caused such devastation,especially after that host went ballistic on his forces.