Original FG42: A Detailed Comparison of the 1st and 2nd Patterns
Vložit
- čas přidán 15. 08. 2023
- utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane.com/channel/For...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
Today we are looking at examples of the 1st pattern (Type E) and second pattern (Type G) FG42, comparing their construction and disassembling both to get a close look at the internal differences. Despite sharing the basic mechanism, these two models share zero parts in common, not even the bayonets or magazines. We will also discuss the developmental path of the FG-42, and why the majority of production was the 2nd pattern but the vast majority of combat use was the 1st pattern...
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
Thank you to the owner/owners of these for allowing Ian to disassemble them for us.
Also kudos to Ian for knowing when he's gone far enough in disassembly.
If I had a super rare and expensive gun. I'd probably watch a gunsmith like a hawk if I was paying him to work on it, but I would send it off to Ian to make a video and rip it all apart any day. He's probably the only person in the world I would 100% trust. Yes Thank you to the owner 100%.
Thank you to the owner and the USA to preserve German firearms heritage because Germany certainly isn't.
@@DaDudeb and why is that., like USA sand about 2000000 thompson smg in Russia 1943 still today like new one in boxes of 5 or 6 in 1 box
Thank U Ian
@DaDudeb they just care about the bigger picture....
The innovation applied to this rifle to meet insanely unrealistic requirements was nothing short of genius
@@RobertCraft-re5sf... Which is why they neeeever tried to assassinate the leaders multiple times.
That is such a German trait lol
Anyone who has disassembled an M60 is going to recognize where that bolt design comes from.
Two originals together?
Now I know what it looks like to upon 200,000 dollars.
Oh wait, I forgot the magazines 220,000 dollars.
only if.. it's a reproduction
PS i've misheard it, guns in the video are actually original, so yeah, these are super very expensive pieces of stamped\milled metal
more like $300K-$400K each at this point, so let's just say a cool million as their value has only been going up.
200k each, minimum.
@@Chiller11 it's crazy, the last one sold at RIA for over $400K in May of this year
You've never seen a house?
I live in the former ruhr pocket and I do some relic digging here and there and near my house was a disarming area where lots of troops dumped their gear and I heard a story of a guy who retreived FIFTY FG42s from a spot here.
Now there are very few relics left on this specific spot due to decades of relic searching.
@@mia30vh
Später ist man immer schlauer 😂
Think outside the box
Guys still find stuff though rusted out
Germans hiding and lazy Americans on getting rid of stuff
Fifty fg42s?!? Lord I see what you have done for others can you cut a homie in 🙏🥺
FIFTYYYYY 💀💀💀💀 I WANT ONE
Germany needing nickel alloys to make guns reminds me of a story I heard about someones grandfather who worked as a welder in WW2. He was welding tanks and due to the high carbon content of the armor plate high nickel alloy filler wires were used. He had a hunch and tried preheating the base metal and welded it with a lower alloy content filler and it worked. When he brought it to those in charge, they said "You're right, thank you, and kindly never speak of it again." The germans faced similar issues with welding armor plate, and if they found out they could preheat and use lower alloy filler metals instead of nickel alloys it would have been a game changer for them.
By the end of the war, German armor had a tendency to shatter when hit, even if not penetrated.
wait why was he asked not to speak of it? isnt it a great thing for the military to use less nickel?
@@xexecuterxxpresumably the idea behind the story is that Americans had plenty of nickel. And Germans had spies. If the US swapped to a reduced nickel method of production the Germans could copy them
@@xexecuterxx Australia, Brazil, Canada, Cuba and the US are all top 10 Nickel producing countries. Brazil had heavy economic ties with the Germans at the start of the war and probably would have joined the Axis powers if geography didn't make it completely unfeasible, but by 1942 they had officially joined the Allies. Looking at the list none of the top 10 producers are countries in Europe so this was always going to be a limited commodity for Nazi Germany. Anything that might potentially save on an abundant resource for yourself while potentially providing that same knowledge to your opponent who lacks that resource is going to be discouraged. The US has it to waste but Germany did not.
@@theholyduck90 Exactly. Canada makes Lot of the world's nickel
I saw a few of these guns in Normandy museums last week, they are indeed very nice looking guns. Almost futuristic looking.
Might be because the stock, grip, magazine and even the receiver is festured on the Star Wars gun Valken-38x, which also has the barrel, barrel shroud and front sights of the MG-42. A glorious meld of 2 iconic guns.
George Lucas seems to like german guns. Han Solo's gun is based on a C96 Mauser.@@magnusbjarnisk
1st version FG42 is one of the most aesthetically pleasing rifles in existence, it's just such a perfection of modern style in industrial design, the proportions are golden, the shapes are beautiful; the stock and grip especially work so well because no part in there sticks out, they instead just flow perfectly with the receivers' shape and proportions, it's almost like this rifle was meant to be given aerodynamic shape by default! It also has perfect blend of beautiful quality wood in handguard, coupled with the modern style of black metal embroidered with characteristic industrial stampings on stock and grip. Just phenomenal.
And also it's not visible in video, but the early ZFG42 scope with that brass coloring is just cherry on top for FG42 aesthetics, it's just absolutely pretty and unique, unbeatable in looks department, 10/10
There's more money on that table than I'll make in 10 years.
There's a reason that wait list is 2-3+ years. The SMG FG42s Rick does are works of art.
Absolutely!
The German reproduction called BD42/2 made by Sport-Systeme Dittrich in Kulmbach are much closer to the original, in fact even the parts are interchangeable with the Original. But that´s not a devalue of SMG products - they are much cheaper as well.
@@klabautermannb5784 "that's not to devalue" Uh no, your post is 1000% to devalue.
These guns were an incredible feat of engineering, especially for the day. Stange is up there with Browning for ingenuity
Thank you for sharing such a comprehensive breakdown, and for igniting our curiosity about these iconic pieces of history. This video will only deepened my respect for the FG42 and its unique place in the world of firearms. Kudos!
Indeed!
One post of five.
This evolution says a lot about what designers thought would be good and what was really needed, what could be simplified and what couldn't
One of the very few times where the MIC actually went above and beyond and the designers, engineers and smiths put their heart and soul into the whole process.
I honestly believe the FG42 is a gun whose creation and development process can't be recreated. Met and superceded all requirements set by command, was loved by soldiers and has a 11/10 cool factor.
Only problem with it was that it was difficult to produce.
This is (IMO) possibly the best gun of the 20th century and that includes the AK-47 and the M16, which themselves are fantastic guns.
Even though I know the story of its development it's still amazing how similar the internals are to the M60, as well as how it strips down. Some differences, yes, but anyone who knows the Pig would be able to strip and reassemble these almost without thinking.
Only Ian could find or assemble two FG42s in private hands to make such a comparison
I’ve never considered fg42s are forgettable, especially the price
Forget owning one more like
Forget college kids. It's all a scam anyway. Trust me kids. Anyway, have you seen my new gun?
@@brojackedh.1512lol
Whenever I see the FG.42 I immediately think of how odd it was that the Johnson LMG was designed concurrently with no influence. It’s neat that as I typed this Ian references it.
These prizes just get better and better.
You can definitely see the similarities between the last model FG 42 and the M60 in this view the bolt/ carrier, the pistol grip retention, the butstock, buffer arrangement gas piston. Gas block etc.
Well, it's not surprising, the M60 is effectively the FG-42 and MG-42 smashed together. And, if I remember correctly, the first prototypes of the M60 were literally made from German parts for these two weapons.
Yeah I noticed the similarities in the feed system of the MG 3 and the M60 when I was stationed in Germany during the 80’s . FG42 is to the M60 as the BAR is to the Mag58-240B.
"We snuck in and got one of these!"
"Your mission, Mr. McCollum, should you choose to accept it....'
One key metric was omitted: How much weight did the second pattern gain?
prolly none, stamped weapons tend to be lighter, so itd compensate most if not all weight gain
@@xexecuterxx Considering how much beefier the bolt and gas piston was, and considering the very thin sheet metal shoulder stock was replaced with solid wood I think there's room for quite a bit of weight gain. Especially as the original receiver was already very thin walled.
Per Wiki-
Types I - 9.3 Lbs.
Type II -10.9 Lbs.
I like how the 2nd version looks, especially the more conventional grip compared to the sharper angle of the 1st version.
@@czwarty7878 Can you imagine what that metal stock would be like in a nice cold Russian winter?
@@czwarty7878 Christ dude, 'you need a change of pants after that?
First version looks like a toy when compared to late version...
I had the chance to see these two beauties in the Dead Man's Corner Museum in Normandy, the "1st pattern" is in the "new part" of the museum, the "2nd pattern" in the original "dead man's house". Totally worth the visit.
Full metal stock of an earlier pattern look like really fun thing to have in cold weather.
Or hot weather.
Ian: "Who wants a free FG 42?"
Me who lives in Vietnam: 🗿
I had the opportunity to shoot an original FG42 in full auto during my vacation. I must say that the rifle is very easy to control and also does not kick like my K98K.
It was really impressive.
@@ForgottenWeapon
Thx. 😊
I find it hard to believe that somebody would let you shoot his fg42, let alone in full auto, except in a video game
@@Johnsormani
It was on a shooting range in las vegas and a instructor was constantly by my side.
I am also active in a shooting club and am experienced in the use of weapons, although not fully automatic ones.
@@biftannen6135 what a great, once in a life experience that must have been. Congratulations !
The 2nd pattern seems to be more ergonomical.
The wooden stock must feel much better than the metal one against your face in the Soviet winter.
I disagree, maybe the stock but the narrowness looks so much more convenient for handheld full auto.
@@AKguru762Skittles break!
Indeed!
The muzzle device on the 2nd version is ribbed for your pleasure!
One of the coolest videos so far in an already awesome channel!
Many thanks for posting and the gun owners for allowing them to be stripped for the camera.
Great video Ian. Stop teasing us in the UK with these giveaways. The only fully automatic thing we can own over here is a washing machine!
As a dutch guy: at least you guys get shotguns I think 😂
You'd be amazed how many Americans want to ban all guns 😑
As a brazilian: you guys have guns??
The UK started to eliminate gun ownership a long time ago. The first really restrictive laws were introduced just after WW1, as the government at the time was concerned about the possibility of a revolution such as had just occured in Russia. You can possess firearms in the UK even today but anything you own can be taken away at a moment's notice.🤬
>short barrel for the round
>muzzle brake
That's gonna be a deafening experience if you got a whole squad armed with these..
I have a Hakim which comes with a very similar brake (to the type 1) It is quite effective. Indoor range it was not very popular... until people saw the Hakim thumb mechanisn.
A great and complete video on the FG42 is always a pleasure to watch!
Let's all just take a second to admire how Ian has anywhere between $200,000 and $500,000 worth of guns on that table for us to enjoy.
I think that the purpose of the early angled grip could be to lower the dimensions (in this case the height) of the gun, making it more compact for paratrooper use.
I love the FG42 type II!
I find them mechanically interesting but TBH if I were to actually use one in combat I'd prefer the STG or even an MP 40. This would probably be little too complex for me to handle.
@@dscrappygolani7981 they did make one in 8x33. I would love one of the modernised versions by SSD in 7.62x51 with a spectre sight.
IIRC, FG-42s were used in the ill-fated Operation Stösser during the Battle of the Bulge. Soldiers armed with the weapon parachuted into combat, so it was used for its intended purpose at least that one time.
Truly amazing refinements to both designs. The captive springs across all platforms is the way to go!
These days gun makers can't design a magazine that works in 5 years of R&D, meanwhile the Germans were making a whole new gun in a couple of weeks. How far we've fallen
It's amazing just how fast and good development of new weapons/parts can be in wartime, isn't it??😁
Necessity is the Mother of Invention. The modern Bunker Buster had a similar R&D time. @@kentr2424
They're doing multiple patterns of StGs, multiple patterns of this thing, and the troops wonder why they're getting well used Kar-98Ks.
Amazing what a world war can do for weapons development and advancement
And its so backwards that it hurts, today we have access to all manner of lightweight polymers, significantly more potent propellant(which is complemented by advanced projectiles), and the corresponding increase in barrel pressure tolerances thanks to modern heat treating and best steels available but can't be bothered to create the super gun of the 21st century. Kalashnikov, Mauser, Stoner, and Browning did the absolute best with the wood and steel of their day but we have not yet come up with the gun to define the future(admittedly because it is really hard to come up with a design that is better than what the old geniuses already have). I'm talking about fabricating a whole new operating action not just the same gun rechambered and gas adjusted for the newest ammo(this rules out the M5 Spear because SiG have been using the AR concept for decades although not just lazily rechambered but also the action components altered to match the gas pressure difference I will concede). It will be faster feeding, better ejecting, less prone to jam, simpler to assemble/strip, and more convenient in the field than everything that has come before all at the same time.
Now I wanna play Return to Castle Wolfenstein again
The basic concept of this rifle needs to be revisited with the .277 Fury cartridge. Keeping the side feeding to shorten the overall length. Single shot for precision and full auto for suppression.
As someone who doesn't know thst round: why specifically thst round?
@@GundamReviver
@@GundamReviver The original 7.92x57 was way too powerful for the rig. The 7.92x33 would be nice and all. But today, you need a higher load to defy body armor.
@@GundamReviver .277 Fury (6.8x51mm) is the cartridge used in the XM7 Carbine (formerly XM5) and XM250 LMG recently adopted by the US Army.
Military Loadings of .277 are supposedly comparable to 7.62 NATO (.308 WInchester) in soft target lethality and armour penetration, whilst surpassing 6.5 Creedmoor in ballistic performance and recoil impulse.
@@GundamReviver To cause maximum logistical pain. It's pure WW2 German thinking.
Great break down of the FG's. Whatever your view of Germany during this period the engineering of these weapons is amazing. Thank you Ian for a in-depth view of the different patterns. If you ever have the opportunity I would like to see a comparison of the MG 42 and the MG 43. Excellent work Ian.
As usual, very well done video!
I had no idea that the design of the FG42 parts evolved so much. They tweaked the manufacturing to make it simpler and cheaper to build. But, they also changed the ergonomics and reliability as well.
Yet again, another outstanding video of what is arguably one of the most impressive gun designs of WWII GERMAN gun design and production. This is at the top of my list of fantasy guns I want to own. I own an MP43 made in 1944 and absolutely love it!!! I have often wondered what would have been the result if they had made the FG42 in 8MM Kurz instead of 7.92X57. I believe that it would have been more practical, just my 2 cents. Thank you, Ian, for sharing this outstanding video with so much pertinent information on these extremely rare guns that so many of us dearly love and want!!!!! Can't wait to see what you do next!!!
I was just rewatching these videos yesterday, impeccable timing.
@ForgottenWeapon Fake
The Germans during WW2 were notoriously complex and persnickety in terms of mechanical equipment. If you look at the Bf-109, various bombers they had, tanks, and so many other things they were building during the war. Why have six moving parts when 38 will be slightly better, but create a logistics nightmare?
If those six parts are complex to produce, requiring lots of low tolerance cuts, is that construction really better than an assembly of thirty-six parts that can be either just stamped out or shaped in a lathe and if you screw the tolerances you only need to discard that particular piece?
Deceptively simple questions can demand surprisingly complex answers.
If you think how many genius designs were produced by the Germans during ww2, i don’t care about this detail. We can all be glad that they did have logistic problems
Got a cool half million in guns there Ian.
Hope you get well soon Ian, thanks for this fantastic Video again ^^
I wondered if the angled grip on the first pattern ones was intended to be more compact for para use
I have seen it proposed that the sharply angled grip was thought to be better for prone shooting.
Today is my 49th birthday, and with this vid Ian gave me a real treat!
Roses are red
I stepped on an earwig
Fallschirmjägergewehr
Zweiundvierzig
Very interesting video of these legends. The 1st pattern grip and stock look more unique and make it very recognizable.
Any day where you wake up to a forgotten weapons video with an FG42 in it is a good day, let alone two...
Thank you again, Ian, it's particulary brilliant video. But it can be also interesting, who was this engineer making/developing (or coordinating) all these significant changes from "pattern 1" to "pattern 2"? Did L. Stange take part in this job or was it independent?
Canadian watchers: Thunder Bay Ontario Museum has a small WW2 exhibit which has a Pattern 1 FG42 in there collection.
Definitely worth a trip if your either from there or passing through.
Hey Ian, great to see you buddy!
A very good comparison video... as a kid I could never understand the first take on the pistol grip.. I did think it looked more like a rifle grip but could not rationalise why.. as an adult I recognise the blindness of following contract specifications
Just wild that these 2 rifles are SOO different only a few years apart. Its almost like the later pattern is a whole new rifle in many ways. Cool video!
I own a repro FG-42 from SMG, and it is fantastic. Absolutely beautiful rifle.
Got to ask, how did you get on the list, and how long was the wait time? I am seriously considering buying one myself.
@@theshadowrunner28 Just emailed the guy who runs SMG, put down a deposit and waited. I don't remember how long, but it was quite a while.
@@jeromethiel4323 Sounds good. Do you remember the approx. cost? Or is it listed on their website? I assume its well north of 5K
@@theshadowrunner28 Mine was 6k and change. The change was mostly shipping and FFL transfer fee.
@@jeromethiel4323 Thats honesty pretty good, considering what you bought. Can you buy extra replacement parts for it as well?
Ian, I wish you had tried to show the fire control group from the second pattern, I'd like to see how firing with the open and closed bolt works.
And can you tell me why the hole in the center of the gas piston of the second pattern is needed? Wouldn't the gases go through this hole into the hollow body of the piston and further into the receiver?
Love your videos, and also the super cool way to support the channel.
i know, many will hate this idea... but i really want a modernized fg42 and stg44 with mlok handguard, maybe better stock and a good modern optics mount like a simple toprail. not much but maybe it improves the systems to compete with modern standarda
Excellent video Ian. Just two thingies about Skorzeny and Mussolini: Skorzeny was an observer in this mission. He had no relation and wasn't involved. And It wasn't a combat missons as you can see in photos after the raid showing German Fallschirmjäger and Italian forces together with arms..
Always a pleasure to watch.
I was delighted to find a very rare M34 panzerlauf in a Canadian museum and got home today to see this video, now i'm not sure which is better. :D
The first pattern seems to be a rifle first and a light machine gun second. The second pattern seems to be a light machine gun first and a rifle second.
I thought it's the other way around, due to the bipod position and sights.
They moved the bipod to the front, to make the gun more accurate for semi auto fire.
They also started work at a semi-auto only version, for more accuracy and simplicity of manufacture.
@@eddgar-ce3md All the other machine guns in german service had the same bipod placement. Also I've never heard of a semi auto fg bar the modern repros. Doesnt really make sense.
Ive never seen the magazine doors/dustcover😮 learned something new about this firearm
This is exactly the kind of content I subscribed to this channel for.
Wow, seems counter productive to completely remake the gun mid-war. Going to enter the contest, I fully expect you to do a break down on that gun in comparison! Thank you Ian
Wow........what an incredible video! Possibly my favorite,........ well after Ian's video on how to correctly reassemble a Ross rifle bolt (kept me from removing part of my face).
I have fired a German made Sport Systeme Dietrich BD42 first pattern, and the left hand must have a glove. The gas port vents are right in front of the handguard. The FG did not wear leather gloves for looks alone.
LOVE this weapon. Incredibly forward thinking design for its era/day (As was nearly every German designed WW2 weapons platform, aside from the late-war Volksturm 'Lyttle Tyke' PanzerFaust laden combat bicycles;)
As to the FG42, Ive always wondered how much of an overall more positive effect could be achieved as to better balance, having the left side mag & magwell redesigned @ more of a downward slant? Angled to the 7 or 8 o clock position. If any handling/B.O.A benefits & usage could be seen as to its new center of gravity?...
The combined weight of 20 rounds of 7.92 & the sheet steel mag running @ 90 degrees from vertical isnt anything to sneeze @ weight wise. Positive results would prob be negligible?
Of course the 6 o clock magwell position would be ideal, but the weapon was designed for it space-savings practicality & overall shorter length, acceptable trade-offs & compromises will be made in that process as with any firearm design...
Operation Mercur's/Crete's rather high casualties & losses could have been largely avoidable had the Fallschirm deployed with personal weapons in hand/on body & NOT stowed within drop canisters, canisters blown by the wind to areas well outside the drop-zones. Imagine having to assault enemy MG positions, or fight light armor elements with a PISTOL?!...Yikes!
Worth noting that the action was fundamentally borrowed from the Lewis gun. Also, the American T-44 (experimental) was derived from the FG 42 and the MG 42 (using the action of the FG 42 and the feeding system of the MG 42). This was refined and went through multiple designations, before finally being designated the T161E3, which was adopted as the M60 machine gun. So the M60 utilizes fundamentally the same Lewis gun / FG 42 action.
Not much better than watching Ian talk about one of his favorite guns. You and Paul Harrell are tied in my book for best "guntubers"!
A couple of notes on use of the FG's. There was a FJ drop during the Battle of the Bulge, so the potential of the FG use in combat drops extends to December of 1944. Also, as far as Skorzeny and the Mussolini raid please note that Skorzeny had only a few of his troops on that raid - it was primarily a 2. Fallschirmjager Division operation. Skorzeny took the credit for it even though he just about ruined it by demanding to fly out with Mussolini in the Skorch, thereby overloading the small plane.
FJ got massacred in the Crete drop. the invasion succeeded only due to british incompetence and german air superiority.
Finally, both patterns of FG-42 review! ❤❤❤ Thank you for this video Ian @forgottenweapons.
Also one point about German parachute webbing. They were single point attached to their parachute, at their back. They did not have the duel points of attachment above the shoulders like US paratroopers. You shoot anything and you're going to be spinning in a circle quickly.
Honestly, their harness design was not the best.
Best rifle ever.
I wanna see you run an FG 42 replica in finish brutality! Kit is your choice but period correct has extra cool factor.
You spoiling us, Ambassador!
16:35 The 1st Pattern has a a seperate sheetmetal Trigger Guard, that looks like it may disconnect when using Gloves; as opposed to the 2nd Pattern's integral Guard.
great video, bud. I wonder how many guns you have left to catalogue.
Thousands.
@@ForgottenWeaponslooking forward to the vids
At 8:48
Them boys had a shit ton of ammo on them...
Thank you
A very interesting comparison.
Thanks!
I know Ian likes to correct all of his mess ups in videos with a little text comment but you called the bipod a bayonet... love you Ian 😂
With the firing pin spring style in there, does that make it a quasi-striker fired setup? It also has always surprised me that they redesigned every single part yet kept the same designation. I would expect it to have been the FG43 with that much redesign.
Awesome thanks 👍👍
This man just told us which type of FG 42 was more comfortable to use.
What a cool thing to know that not many people can ever find out
Im always fascinated by this firearm
I want one of each, please!
Wow an actual example of the Theseus paradox I.e if you replace all the parts of an object is it still the original object woof woof
I would LOVE a chance at this, but I recently moved and my updated id isn't here yet so I don't know if I could actually retrieve the gun from the FFL if I did somehow win
Incredible ! I love this rifle !
You fired a type II on full auto and it looked pretty controllable. You fired a type I copy on semi and it looked like it recoiled more. Is there much of a difference? And full auto compared to the M14 which one was better?
The second mark looks a lot chunkier. Less flimsy looking. Thanks for the comparison Ian.
Awesome looking gun.
How would it compare to early - and later assault guns?
Both incredible guns, but that 1st model is so damn good looking
What makes you to like the first version more? I find the grip a bit strange...
@@juanzulu1318 I like the bakelite stock with the stripes, looks cleaner/ more modern than the wooden stock of the type 2 in my opinion, I also like the type 1 being slimmer. The grips sure are more unpractical on the 1st model but again, regarding looks, i like it more
@@NlGHTSKYah ok, I see. Yes, the stock looks indeed better.
Early FG42 angled handgrip. Early California compliant version? Very forward thinking of Germany.
A question, Modus Operandi, I've really tried to find the answer... Semi Auto is closed bolt; Full auto is open bolt. There's a selector... What happens when you switch? You're in semi auto and you move the lever to full auto - Is the first shot then closed bolt or do you need to do something else (like pull the bolt back) to make it work? You're in full auto (bolt open) and you change to semi auto - will the first shot be open bolt and subsequent shots be closed bolt? Dumb question I guess, but I can not find a clear answer about how the transitions between open/closed (full auto/semi auto) is managed. Some guns I think has to be "manipulated" when switching modes. Don't guess please.
I always like the look of the 1st model.