What's going on with rail on the Atlanta Beltline?
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- Atlanta hasn’t seen a new rail project since the 2000s - MARTA is to finally build the first segment of rail on the Beltline as originally envisioned, by 2028. Let’s deep dive into why the project makes sense, and why its the most exciting project the city is doing this decade.
Thanks everyone for the awesome feedback on the last video! Way bigger than I imagined! Appreciate all the new followers & subs, welcome :)
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Timestamps
0:00 Intro
1:21 Background, MARTA, Downtown Streetcar
2:33 The Problem
3:44 Ridership and boring numbers
4:37 Bikes and vibes
5:32 NIMBYs
7:19 Positivity?
7:59 Conclusion and who to contact
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Marta: Streetcar East Extension - Long Version 9-8-2022: vimeo.com/740426533/6aef507132
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An update comment: Mayor Dickens is trying to bait and switch the public by announcing infill stations instead of following his original campaign promise of pushing for Beltline Rail transit. It's pretty embarrassing honestly! NIMBY's gonna NIMBY and unfortunately they have money and influence too. twitter.com/threadatl/status/1780298693373014358
Is extremely disappointing that we have to fight tooth and nail to get any kind of infrastructure project done that isn’t a highway interchange… people in Atlanta are so carbrained they can’t see the world any other way. It’s actually quite embarrassing. If we would’ve built these projects 20 to 30 years ago ,we would be a top-tier city. But because of segregation and racism we are stuck with some of the worst traffic in the whole country. I’m glad people like you were spreading the word.
Upsets me too! Atlanta has "blue city in red state" syndrome too heavily when it comes to transportation for sure -- marta is the only rapid transit agency not state funded. Thanks for watching!
The sidewalk is 22 miles on a 30 year plan. That should tell you all you need to know. Before I die I want to bike to Lindbergh. Living in Atlanta I dream small.
It's actually pretty incredible how little political sway NIMBYs hold here. The white flight era harmed our city in so many ways though with that upheaval came the rooting out of generational interests. Unfortunately, all of the willpower in the world won't make up for a lack of cash. The political will of Atlanta is crystal clear, yet so too is the state's implicit disdain for it in their withholding of financial capital. The current status quo is what enables the state treasury to siphon away most of the wealth generated in Atlanta, after all.
It's funny how the more things change the more they stay the same, eh? NIMBYs within or without, we're stymied. Even so... progress is progress. A connected beltline will be the first step towards establishing a financially independent & powerful urban fabric and from there on each next step becomes exponentially easier. This is such a critically important time for us -- projections estimate that the population of the metro area will more than double within the next decade. The future success of the city is directly tied to how effectively the city proper can capture these newcomers and the beltline is the basket within which we've placed our collective bets.
DO YOU VOTE IN EVERY LOCAL ELECTION?
If you think by building a tram-line people will abandon their cars, think again.
Great that you left who to contact at the end with a solid goal; You're immediately better than any lame explainer channel.
I hope this gets built, it's always tough with rails to trails projects sometimes blocking rails again, but I've already complained about that...
Yo so sick seeing you here, long time fan! Yes, personally I think it will be fine as its supposed to start construction next year, but you never know, nimbys gonna nimby. thanks for commenting!
I have to tell folks all the time that the 20' buffer on the side of the beltline is for the light rail. After we walk another mile, they realize this buffer goes around basically the whole thing.
Yeah it seems like it should be obvious but isn't for some reason. They really should've have made that more visible from the beginning so its less politicized now!
Pin signs on the edge of the space that tell people that the space is reserved for the rail line.
I've been telling people this for years as well and their bewilderment was always hilarious but more inquisitive than anything.
This recent anti-train movement smells fishy because all of this information has been available for years and now suddenly there's a coordinated movement against it? I've known people who've been anti-train before this, but they were mostly ignored. The most vocal of these are older homeowners near the beltline. I have to shoot down some of the bad faith counter suggestions like tiny automated shuttle gadgetbahns (small and inefficient) or buses (which will be noisier and more destructive). It's funny because they always return to "When the bus fails we can return it to more beltline walking space!" They literally just don't want any transit because this is their backyard park walking trail and they're lucky enough to own next to it. True NIMBYs.
"there's no need for light rail"
-the people who are actively making money off the lack of light rail
Hahaha literally, shouldve put that line in the script
Naysayers should visit Charlotte and ride the Lynx Blue Line. The project had to suffer through years of debate, but it finally made it through, and no one is complaining now.
I haven't been to charlotte actually other than driving through but the only reason I want to go at all is for the rail trail hahaha. Heard great things, thanks for commenting!
I'm glad that the mayor, Petey B, and the Atlanta City Council see just how vital the streetcar extension is -- as well as the majority of the actual NPUs. I hope that the extension can get started ASAP so that the privileged few can be ignored with no impact.
Looking forward to beltline rail in the future. In an ideal world beltline rail would spur a light rail boom for the city and eventually plug in the gaps and compliment the heavy rail segments. Areas like Howell Mill that are having population booms will need beltline rail the most.
"West midtown" is a massive mess hahaha. I don't know what their plan is without transit. But the density is crazy!
@@nathandaven Honestly a whole video about the ""upper Westside"" would be great. The area is bustling but it's horrible to drive through and transit is completely lacking. Hoping to see a heavy rail expansion and light rail into the area. It really needs it.
Its on the list for sure! @@razkrunk3169
Thank you for being light to this topic for those outside the Atlanta area. Love from Carrollton, GA!
The Beltline is literally former train tracks for the most part. I used to live in Atlanta and I’ve long giving up hope of it developing into a functional city.
Bordeaux is another great example of a great streetcar city.
Having walked the Beltline up to Ponce City Market way back in 2018 it was interesting to see where things stand with plans for the light rail corridor. Props, by the way, for the history lesson on how MARTA got Seattle's Federal transit $$$. We're only now recovering from how we lost that windfall (90% from the Feds with just a 10% local match!) with light rail now being built up here in the Pacific Northwest.
I got to visit Seattle recently. Funny enough, Seattle reminded me sooo much of Atlanta (other than all the water!) Link rail is.. interesting, but I'm excitied for yall to get the second line built! Used it and busses to get around and it worked well. I'm glad we got MARTA down here, but I also wish we had densified around stations better like other cities of the era, BART & WMATA.
At least y'all still have the downtown Amtrak station, I took the cascades up to Vancouver and it was wonderful. Thanks for the comment!
@@nathandavenyeah Seattle is a highly linear city (being located on an isthmus between the Puget sound and lake Washington) whereas Atlanta is radial
Great video! I just found your channel today and have lived in Atlanta my whole life. Thank you for talking about these important topics!
The quality of these vids just keep getting better and better!
Man thanks y'all for the awesome feedback on the last video! Way bigger than I imagined! Appreciate all the new followers & subs, welcome :) Like, comment, and maybe subscribe for the algorithm 🫶
Also, I've made a Substack! Check out the written version of the video with citations here (consider subscribing, it's free!):
nathandaven.substack.com/p/whats-going-on-with-rail-on-the-atlanta
All power to you dude. From NOLA where we have streetcars, but primarily as a tourist toy. Which kills the conversation around trams as a city and suburb wide transport system.
As a Bostonian living in Atlanta almost 6 yrs I sometimes weep that we don’t have streetcars and commuter rail lines and expanded subway systems to get around the traffic. Yeah Bostons system is partly the oldest in the country but I think DC metro is a great example of post 70s rapid transit implementation and expansion. Atlanta needs it desperately. Hell even Miami is showing out thanks to Brightline. This is embarrassing
YES! I've been dying to hear someone explain this. Awesome video man. Love from Milledgeville, GA!
Lived in Atlanta from 1998-2022, live in Jacksonville now and miss it every day but maybe it was for the better. Jacksonville is 5-10 years behind Atlanta in almost every aspect which is frustrating and annoying, but oddly enough it's a blessing sometimes.
I have no plans of staying here in Florida past the expiration date I have assigned for myself, lol. Not too crazy about the ppl here in general, the EXTREME right-wing politics (and I am a Republican) and the intensified humidity that is definitely a step above Georgia's humidity. I'm probably going to move to AZ or OH by the middle /end of this decade. I am only here because of the affordability factor and family.
I plan on occasionally visiting Atlanta when I can once I've moved again, Atlanta will always be home and have a place in my heart.
even better than the last one, fav new channel fr
Biggest fan 🫡
I live less than 100 ft from one of the oldest light rail lines in the country and the noise is literally negligible.
From Miami, Fl hope you guys improve your mass transit. I do support the idea of different grade for light rail since you don’t have to deal with car drivers who intentionally park their in the railway crossing like here in South Florida. Call your representatives to support it. Let your voice be heard.
Great report, wish more people realized and helped push this to the forefront.
Thank you for making this video!
Very informative videos! I pray they get the light rail line going soon. The example you showed in the other country looked amazing. Atlanta needs something like that asap.
Awesome well researched video. Thank you!!
I don't think a lot of people realize that the streetcar loop was simply the first phase of a multiphase plan that includes Beltline rail. That's the reason it really doesn't go anywhere. It was originally supposed to go up Peachtree St to Buckhead, but NIMBYs gonna NIMBY and it was removed from the original plan.
I have been an Atlanta resident since 1993 and have seen so many opportunities squandered. How long have they been trying to build the Clifton Corridor? 10 years as far as I can tell and now the ridiculous decision to do it with BRT isn't going to work either...because it will run in traffic for a good portion of the line. MARTA ignores community input regularly, so I don't know why they bother in the first place.
Fantastic video!
Honestly, you're completely right. It feels like it would have a massive negative impact on the vibe of the place but in truth, it was always destined for transit and as you showed in the clip from Amsterdam, a few grassy tracks with tram stops here and there won't at all massively impact the space. Everywhere I've trams have only ever been a blessing. And they actually work perfectly with pedestrians and cyclists as they're so predictable. I just hope they don't make the crossings too cumbersome and obstructive. Taking inspiration from French cities on how to design the route would be best, considering how many pedestrians and cyclists will be around.
love the vids as being from atlanta, this is refreshing
NOMBY "Not On My Beltline, Ya'll"
I had little knowledge about Atlanta transit before watching. Seems like a great idea. Cool video bro
Great piece. Very helpful and will share to help educate others why we want this to move forward. I’ve been a proponent of beltine rail since the beginning and glad it’s finally going to happen even with this small extension of the street car.
I wish we stopped calling it a streetcar. For Atlantans, I feel the term streetcar carries the baggage of downtown streetcar. Light rail sounds much better and "less-stuck-in-traffic" (and it's actually not going to be stuck in traffic).
Good point! Maybe would be less politicized if we called it "beltline rail east" or something instead of "eastside streetcar extension"
Your videos are great! Well done.
Appreciate it!
I love the framing on the bridge B-roll shot "To someone, you are everything" prominently standing out
i swear im like addicted to your videos
Where were these Nimbys when the plan was being made in the first place? Light rail is and always has been part of the plan. Even if these Jonny Come Latelies were arguing in good faith, they're very, very late
This is epic
very insightful
i'll say!
sus @@stalactite22
A light rail line along the beltline would be very nice. But America goes by the 5R's these days: reservation, reconsideration, rejection, revenge, and resentment.
Great video! I don’t live in Atlanta, but enjoy the content. Hopefully you can visit Portland, Oregon for a video essay!
I did get to go to the PNW recently but didn't get to see portland, but I visited Olympic, Seattle & Van!
This project would be a game changer for ATL, and could be the catalyst to bring the city together as it crosses so many different neighborhoods with so many different kinds of people; being a single corridor, it could be the reason to develop not only all the structures of every kind of neighborhood on its sides, but also further out into these neighborhoods.
Ideally a *rapid* transit that will move people around the city will be optimal. Think of something like the SkyTrain in Vancouver. It is quiet, frequent, fast, and can be beautiful. It is grade separated and can run mostly elevated through the Beltline so it won’t take up precious “play space” from the NIMBY’s. Will it cost more than a tram? Sure - but it’s the best cost in the long run and will be a true rapid transit option that will really kick start development and shift mode share to transit.
Great video for teaching outsiders about Beltline Rail. A decade is just too long to wait for something so vulnerable to being cancelled before it is done (as happened to the LRT in Baltimore and almost happened to the Purple Line in Silver Spring). Do complete streets, buses and bike highways everywhere instead. Dreams of city wide streetcars are just that, Dreams.
I’d love for someone to explain how a train is routed through Dekalb Ave, the Krog Tunnel, the two 90 degree turns in Reynoldstown and through Glenwood Park and Bill Kennedy.
Where the F is the train!?!! Zero progress sticking with cars and sitting in traffic, they need to push harder for this to happen if they want Atlanta to flourish and enter into a new era. I would love to see this, I plan on moving there in a few years. Also the Brightline train going from Miami up to Orlando, I hope gets extended into Tampa soon, would love to fly down direct and take a train over.
Bring that light rail to SW Atlanta before the Beltline. They don't want it and it will not be used. It's ridiculous that they are canceling projects while the light rail will actually be used. The Emory corridor was an absolute necessity. I took the Marta 6 bus to/from Emory>Lindbergh everyday and the light rail would've been amazing.
Exactly … transit where it’s needed most. Not on the Beltline.
Southwest atlanta heavily deserves more transit coverage, especially considering how transit dependent some areas are. but also I can understand the choice to focus on the most dense corridor. I think this project is really important to prove that atlanta can and should build more transit, and hopefully will bring a lot more political will to the other parts of the city
Im not sure on its status, but there is BRT planned for cambleton rd. And on route 6, yeah its really annoying the deicisions theyre making with the clifton project, possibly could be a future video topic
I knew this would happen: that the streetcar would be so expensive and lightly used that it'd give the whole concept a black eye, thereby jeopardizing Beltline light rail. Unfortunately, the streetcar concept into downtown was still the only way to tien Beltline rail into the rest of the transit network. The only other alternative, which-- was it even studied?-- would've been to extend it south to MARTA's East Line and build a new very-elevated MARTA station for the connection. That, too, would've been expensive and lightly used.
I was a Beltline skeptic, and I cheerfully admit that I was way too pessimistic about the transformative potential of the Beltline concept. If only Ryan Gravel could've talked a Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos into paying for the whole thing: rail, pathway, and adjacent development, all in one epic project. In today's America, I think that's the only way it could've happened.
How can you drive in traffic in Atlanta and still advocate against a light rail line…
Welcome to Atlanta where people apparently have amnesia from driving.
Everyone unanimously hates driving whenever the words Downtown and Connector or Top-Side and Perimeter are in a sentence together, but also if the letters M A R and T are combinded just right, they also hate public transit in any forms and go looking for monorails, Musk Tunnels, Lime Scooters and any other excuses to pass off actually getting a shovel into the ground for something that doesn't involve adding a lane somewhere.
So is it happening? And if so when will construction start?
Construction starts next year I believe, and they say service starts 2027/2028. www.streetcar-east.scoutfeedback.com/ has a lot of the project information, I probably should have quickly gone over the timelines in the video! Thanks for watching
@@nathandaven the MARTA board approved the final design phase this summer and awarded a contract for it to nationally respected firm HDR. That design phase will begin shortly and last 18 months, according to MARTA. Then construction can begin and completion is projected for 2028 according to More MARTA fact sheets.
Beltline is the best!! Fear that a train would ruin the it’s essence
Correction: the Federal Urban Mass Transit Agency did not fund BART in the SF Bay Area. BART was an entirely local-funded system by property bonds, and it passed in 1960 before the FUMTA of 1964 was created. Only at the end, did the Feds fund BART, and only for a park underneath the Richmond line - not the line itself.
Interesting! I assumed they were all funded by the federal grant due to the time period and the heavy similarities between wmata, bart, and marta systems. thanks for heads up!
www.bart.gov/about/history/history3 there was federal funding for the original BART fleet and has been more federal funding since, this is what BART says about its own history of federal funding.
I was wondering where all those nimby signs were coming from
ive lived in atlanta for 5 months and still haven’t gone to the beltline 😂
Do you go to GSU? I would love to catch lunch with you someday. I’m a commuter student but I’m passionate about cities and urban development. Hope you see this.
I went to state then tech, but not in school anymore, feel free to message me on instagram!
THWg
Yes I live near the eastside beltline and I do not want the rail.
I don't see a single successful example of a well-maintained and safe public transit in this city. I'd love to use Marta, but I can't because each time I am harassed or I'm witness to an incident. Unless it's for a concert or sports game, using the Marta system feels very unsafe. I believe it will be more of the same with the beltline rail.
8:08 lolz
I thought the Atlanta beltline was I-285.
8:01 “Andre Dickens supports the rail” that didn’t age well
I feel like a large number of opposers think that rail would REPLACE the bike/ped trail. It's like they don't see the huge space set aside separate from the existing trail.
WE WANT TRAINS YEAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! ! !! ! !! ! !
tbh I hate the micro-mobility littering up the place. better than cars though
Cars are sus
Atlanta is not great to get around with Public transit lol. The whole point of a subway system is to get people in from the suburbs to the city and back home, reducing traffic along the route. Thats how it works in big Asian cities.
Metro Atlanta has expanded beyond Cumming and the subway runs up to Sandy Springs lol. That is not an effective system. One of the better systems I’ve seen besides NYC, DC, etc. is surprisingly Dallas. It links a lot of suburbs in Dallas county, has bus service right at the stations, is actively adding more lines to connect more suburbs.
The Atlanta area is just so shockingly unplanned it’s ridiculous. In an area of 6 million plus, this system serves select areas where about 500k people live. Also, there’s no bike lanes anywhere, barely any sidewalks(if they exist, they’re too narrow or broken), bus service sucks, highways are super unplanned and there’s no alternate routes. The amount of times I’ve been stuck in 4 hour gridlocks there is ridiculous lol. So glad I got out.
the "green part" is what makes the paved part so good.
Yes, and there’s plenty of room for trail, rail, and greenery. The beltline has built several parks, and Trees Atlanta planted an arboretum.
dude can we collab these are the exact things i wanna talk about as well. im aspiring to be apart of the GwCO transit department to advocate for bike and bus lanes, i see the problems of ATL and want to act!
NIMBY. That's what's going on
yt people used to call marta m.oving a.fricans r.apidly t.hrough a.tlanta smh lol... 'they say' people hated riding the train to braves games, that's why they play in cobb county now
The 230 ++++++ million it is going to cost , how about a bike path ?
Don't you love, nimby's that just move in, have no cultural connections. Trying make decisions about a plan thats been around longer than they in moved and longer than they will stay. 💁♀️
Part of the problem is as you mentioned about rail is that it's seen as taking away from nature, many of people don't realize can grasses, succulents growing. It doesn't take away from nature. Which even still this is not at like a pristine forest or wild area. It literally is an urban space.
The fact that a plan was created at one point does not necessarily mean that it had wide public support at the time. It might well have had it, or it might not. But but it was a plan on paper. There is a world of difference in cost between planning something and actually building it; a universe of difference. The residents who live there now, whether for a long time or not, are part of the city that the beltline serves. In this video, those residents' views are portrayed as not legitimate or at least the ones that differ from the original plan. But the plan was not written in stone, nor was it a cannonized gospel directive. It was never supposed to override the consensus of the city's residents, but rather to be subject to their support.
You can call those residents nimbys if you want to and drip with contempt for their illegitimate views, but those views are just as legit as yours. Actually, as residents they are more legit than those of non residents.
They should jest put down some narrow gauge track but some steam locos and cars and invite weirdos like me to drive for free to reduce cost. I’ll book a flight now.
Cash Jordan but make it Atlanta
I support building this and envision it as part of a larger network but I think we need to be sober about the ridership expectations. The belt line itself is a destination that people enjoy walking on. Even the footage itself seems to suggest the majority of people are going for a leisurely stroll. Also, after seeing the idiot proofing they did at West Side park at the expense of aesthetics, I worry the city will take the same approach with the streetcar and erect some ugly barrier. Would love to be proved wrong though. Great video, keep them coming.
The only thing I liked was the look of the train tracks on grass. But it actually looked more dangerous, without any barrier between the tracks and the path, considering how busy the path is. I disagree with the video's suggestion that the rail is the best way to reduce the traffic on the beltline, comparing traffic there to a road or highway. It's not like people on the beltline are just trying to get from point a to b, they're enjoying the park. Rather than address the concerns the non-rail people have, the video just went into personal attacks and dismissed opposition as being bought by big business or the filthy rich. Look at all the signs on the beltline--they're majority opposed to rail. These people who live and work there bought into what the beltline has become--not some idealistic light rail utopiah. It's the most successful project in Atlanta's history and you all want to change the character from a linear park to a rail line. If transportation is so needed from the existing rail line to PCM, why not run it on surface streets like the rest of the rail line? Why mess with something so loved by everyone and forever take away the space needed to expand the trail on the Eastside.
The beltline is a transit corridor. It's always been a transit corridor. People buying million dollar homes on the beltline without doing their research first isn't our fault - it's their fault for being ignorant of its entire purpose and plan. It's not just a linear park - yes, some people just hang out with friends and walk up and down, but others use it to commute. You realize that thousands of people work on the beltline right? They have to get there somehow. One of the major developers on the eastside trail has actually had trouble hiring enough workers to finish construction because their commute was so long - he had to provide food and showers for them. I'm just speaking as someone who lives in the city, but I've yet to speak to a single person anywhere in the city who is opposed to rail on the beltline. The vast majority of Atlantans support it, it dramatically increases accessibility (have you thought about when it's pouring rain? when it's 100 degrees? have you thought about people in wheelchairs? what about people who can't bike or have other mobility issues?), and it will alleviate the heavy pedestrian traffic. As we've learned from literally every highway expansion project in history, the only way to reduce traffic is to provide alternative means of transportation. The beltline is not just a playground for the rich - it's for everyone
i just want marta trains up to marietta and kennesaw, the college markets are completely untapped for public transit
The cobb linc rapid 10 runs every ten minutes at peak times! Will take you to arts center and free transfers
@@nathandaven I get that, but I'm quite fond of trains
Hmmm $60 million to train our police or $250 million to solve a nonexistent problem
Man I really don't like those scooters
The Beltline is not a viable transit option it has become an atraction ! What they should do is a better way to get there from different areas of the city or metro area...
I don't live in Atlanta, so I don't have an opinion, or even a right to an opinion, on the beltline rail. I only rarely use Marta to save a few bucks by parking at the Doraville station on my way to the airport. It's also fun to ride the train now and then, but I don't know how much I'd ride it, as opposed to driving a car or taking a bus, if I lived in Atlanta. I'd definitely bike and skate the beltline because I use similar facilities in Winder and Athens now. I might even drive to Atlanta to skate it. I drive there to skate downtown around the King Center. Buses seem more practical than rail.
How would a bus make sense on the Beltline? Glad you ride marta, but the streetcar extension will make easier for you to take gold line down to Peachtree Center, and transfer to the streetcar up the beltline than catching a bus. The 102 and 2 leave from North Ave and go by ponce city market, but they get stuck in traffic extremely often due to Ponce. The benefit of rail here is that its seperated from street traffic, see 5:15, a clip from NJB's video czcams.com/video/AOc8ASeHYNw/video.html , to see what I'm talking about! thanks for commenting!
@@nathandaven I don't need to ride a bus on the beltline. A bus can use the roads. That's the point. A train has a dedicated track, but other snags can slow it down, and a bus can detour around snags in some cases. To be fair, I don't use buses much either. I drive a car. Even with occasional traffic jams, it's tough to beat a personal vehicle. I don't mind sitting in a jam in my EV so much, and I'd mind it even less if my car drove itself through the jam.
I was tempted to pay more for a new Bolt EUV with SuperCruise, but I finally decided to wait for more mature self-driving tech. By the time a rail line around Atlanta is complete, I expect self-driving vehicles to revolutionize transit. You'll hail a car or van with your phone. It'll pick you up and drop you off wherever, and the price won't be much more than a Marta ticket. If you hit a traffic jam, you just sit back and browse the web or something, and you don't wait for the vehicle to stop every quarter mile to pickup/drop off passengers.
@@restonthewind electric cars are a super inefficient way to transport large amounts of people, do nothing to alleviate traffic, are comparably horrible for the environment, and the autonomous technology still seems many years away from being feasible. meanwhile, I ride an electric train (marta) all the time and browse the web and never sit in a traffic jam. I actually frequently watch all the cars sitting in traffic and think of how lucky I am to not be in it. Oh and not to mention the maximum amount you could pay in a year for transit in Atlanta is like $1100 and the average cost of car ownership in the US is 10x that - $11,000. I can't think of any single positive aspect of cars in this scenario other than personal comfort and isolating yourself from other Atlantans (some people consider that a pro I guess, but it's a con for me). The travel time is usually faster, but the mental and physiological stress most people endure from driving through the city makes it suuuper not worth in my opinion
@@MrStrickland90 Marta is rarely an option for me, and neither is any other mass transit option. EVs are more efficient and no worse for traffic or the environment than ICEVs, and they cost a lot less to operate, but if Marta meets your needs and you don't need a car at all, more power to you. $11k is half of what I paid for my 2020 Bolt EV with 8k miles last year, so I'll hardly pay so much to drive it annually. The positive aspect for me is stepping out of my house and into my car, but if I could easily walk to a Marta station to go where I need to go, I'd do that too.
@@restonthewind $11k is just an average which factors in vehicle cost/depreciation, insurance, maintenance, gas, parking, traffic tickets, etc.
that's just financial cost - I used to be a car guy and drive everywhere, and over the past year as I've barely driven at all, I've noticed improve physical and mental health, and I also feel much more connected to the city and the people around me. so I suppose you could add the physical cost of the sedentary life that cars enable and the mental/physiological stress of sitting in traffic and/or knowing one wrong turn or one mistake by somebody else could instantly end your life.
but hey, it's a free country so people can drive and own cars if they want to
Actually, when we were at the very beginning process of selecting what mode of transportation would be utilized, Old Fourth Ward and Sweet Auburn did not support light rail. It supported BRT or some rubber wheeled/ flexible path transportation option because it was 1/3 the cost of rail and far more flexible in terms of being able to use the beltline right of way, as well as city streets and had a far less disruptive effect on existing businesses. BRT was the most equitable option. And that’s where we are right now. In fact, the elitists were the ones absolutely opposed to getting on anything that looked like a bus or anything like a bus. And now here we sit, trying to shoehorn technology for the 19th century into something that can support other options, whether battery operated autonomous mini busses, a subsidized micro transportation solution or something else.
Community engagement on this issue for people who are actually affected day to day by the construction was performative back then and it’s performative now. We are talking about these steel wheeled trains, running within 15 feet of the front porches of some of these houses, and they haven’t even been actively engaged by MARTA or the people proposing this. No one‘s addressed how they’re going to access their homes during or after construction or what happens to the on street parking they utilized e for their homes. No one‘s talked about having their trees in their front yards getting chopped down noise abatement or any of that stuff.
Don’t even get me started on how we regularly destroy our street trees and tree canopy with all of the overhead lines forced upon us by Georgia power. And now we’re talking about doing more of the same.
It’s disrespectful and pushy towards people who have chosen to live in the Old Fourth Ward for decades, Folks who planned and made the neighborhood what it is today after years and years of work.
And no one’s talking about how the right of way for what is proposed is not often wide enough without destroying all of the trees that have been planted by residents and Trees Atlanta over the past 20+ years. Some long term land owners/residents are having property taken without proper engagement as well.
Folks who oppose this aren’t NIMBYs. In fact, many of us are the ones who supported the much higher density of Old Fourth Ward (to PAY for the Beltline Tax Allocation District and all of the nice things we enjoy…including Beltline expansion and construction) when we put together our development plan in 2008. Even before then, we actively worked on issues of affordable housing schools, retail development (since 1994), When Old Fourth Ward was absolutely ignored by neighboring communities, the development community and other residents at large.
I’m actually one of the people who uses the street car. I often take it to Peachtree Center station and then take that train to the airport. So I support transportation. But I don’t support the process as it’s taking place right now. It feels very top down, and completely devoid of a solution driven discussion that includes legacy residents.
There’s nothing that says that we can’t re-purpose the current streetcar infrastructure for something else that can also be utilized along the beltline as well as on city streets all over Atlanta. But we’re not having that discussion.
We should.
This is a VERY funny and loaded comment. First of all, "19th century technology" Also, equally describes buses as well as rails. Honestly I could leave it on that point but I'll go into more for you
For another, Rails are literally just more efficient than tires. That's indisputable physics. They're more energy efficient, they produce less waste, and require less maintenance. Complaining about them running 15' from businesses and homes and then only sentences later claiming it's not a NIMBY issue? Just because we're talking about front yards instead of Backyards doesn't make it not a nimby issue.
Your concern for trees is well waranted, but overhead wires are by far the best way to power these vehicles. Georgia Power isn't forcing that fact, it's just, again, physics. Third rail can work too but then there's concerns for people and creatures getting on them. That you even consider batteries when overhead is on the power is kind of telling that you haven't really looked into the issues you so badly want "discussed". Batteries don't last forever, and are expensive and heavy. You can't play concerned about costs but then want to foist a more expensive, less efficient vehicle on a service that doesn't even exist yet.
@@Joesolo13 $230, million-$270 million for 2 miles of double track placed only in one of the richest sections of Atlanta is neither, cost-efficient or equitable or respectful of the current environment .The system we have was already off-line for months while they had to repair the vehicles. Just admit that you want rails in the ground because you just like the aesthetic, not because it’s the best thing for the city or because it makes the most financial sense.
BRT related solutions are 1/3 the cost of anything relating to rails and they are more flexible in terms of service. That’s a fact. They could be battery operated or hydrogen powered for that matter. Those are discussions that we need to have.
And as far as the NIMBY comment goes, folks aren’t saying “no public transportation” they’re saying, let’s have an actual an honest conversation about the alternatives, including the routes.
This is discussion that’s not meant for the unserious
This is all lies. The community does and always has supported rail. It’s only some newer, wealthier, (whiter), residents that own million dollar townhomes that are against rail.
Hi, I also lived in the area throughout my life- I remember my dad fighting GDOT to stop bulldozers from coming down Highland into Inman Park to build the rest of 675… it’s now Freedom Pkwy.
No one around here at the time voted for a busway or BRT. We were pitched and green lit a light rail loop that would have spurs down Clifton and cross Midtown into GA Tech and the AUC with a hub at Lindbergh. I still have a copy of some of the community outreach papers.
Everyone who payed attention knew the Beltline was supposed to be a hub to navigate around ATL’s CBD and also provide another less costly form of rail transport to the region and send branches eventually to places that aren’t served now. The whole BRT nonsense is only in the last 8 years really.
"Better Atlanta Transit" that is opposing better transit. Yeah no one should take them seriously.
Wish your video contained a more thoughtful analysis of the opposition. Georgia Tech professors, experts in the area, are opposed to using the Beltline for transit. It has spurred development and provides a peaceful environment for walking and mobility transit. Not everyone lives on the Beltline and 70 other MARTA projects are put on hold indefinitely to prioritize expanding this downtown streetcar that has been a money draining unsuccessful nightmare. The argument is to do more transit projects, but not this one. Many other projects provide transit to the Beltline, example is North Avenue BRT. For reference, Beltline Rail Now is classified the same way, 501(c)(4).
This comment reads like it was copy pasted from the Better Atlanta Transit website hahaha. No disrespect but Beltline rail is the best value for dollar project MARTA and the city could build according to ridership studies, and you are just proving the points I made in the video! You say “70 other transit projects in the city are more important” but really you just don’t want transit expansion at all.
It’s difficult to have a real conversation in Atlanta about transit, because any opposition to this specific project is labeled as “anti-transit”. What about adding much needed that costs less and doesn’t take 30 years to build. You make a good point, highway projects costs more, but keep in mind that this tax money is entirely locally funded (More MARTA tax), and there is limited funds and projects that can be done. Unlike state highways, this money will run out and we should carefully select what works best in terms of projected ridership, cost-benefit, ability to share costs with Federal grants, so that all of Atlanta benefits. I know you want a quick way to get from Brewdog to PCM, but other projects are actually more important.
What project is more important? Summerhill BRT is already under construction, and Clifton Cooridor is going through the alignment process. Additionally, we have the new fleet of rail trains coming in the next year. These are the only other projects with densities & ridership that make sense for rapid transit, and they are well underway, not "on hold." @@ThisUTD55
Here’s the funny part- none of this would be built at all if light rail hadn’t been pitched first. If you had said “let’s build a 30 mile pedestrian and bike path around Atlanta with tax money 20 years ago, those dusty defunct tracks would still remain over Ponce (the old Ford plant would likely have been demolished and be a strip mall), Krog St would still be a murder tunnel and none of what you see would have happened. Also I’ve never once been in a city that said “you know what? Expanding our rail line was a terrible idea! We should have just not done anything!”
If we don’t put some kind of transit infrastructure in that 22’ ROW (which is why it’s there in the first place!) then where else is it supposed to go, how long will it take to get new EIRs done, how much money will be needed to sweet talk the NIMBYs to go along with the new plan and how much MORE money will it take to build? I’ll be a great-grandpa by the time opening day hits.
Nah chief, that ain’t it. Build the thing we already discussed and voted for 10 years ago, thanks.
@@nathandaven that’s the point you are missing. You claim there is density and ridership to justify the project, but that’s simply your opinion. Ask MARTA and Atlanta Beltline, Inc. for projected ridership numbers, they don’t exist. All we can do is assume based on the current streetcar which was a huge success, right? I’ll rather get transit all over Atlanta than wait 30 years to bankrupt MARTA and provide future generations with a high cost maintenance nightmare.
I personally don't want that streetcar, I bike the beltline almost everyday and that streetcar will get in the way. Im all for transit and more walkable cities with less cars but this protect I am not a fan of
The streetcar will make more room for biking. Did you see the beltline this weekend? There was no way youd ride a bike. Imagine if most of those people took the streetcar instead. Also - the street car isnt affecting the existing trail, its going in the massive space next to it thats been reserved for light rail for decades. My point: biking will be better with the streetcar and provide more options!
@@nathandaven I watched one of your about the Beltline in the streetcar and I will say this, it does get pretty crowded in the area and it is a very long walk between Ponce City Market and krog Street Market... my issues that I have with the streetcar it blocks off sections of businesses particularly on Edgewood Avenue.. now I do like how some renderings show the streetcar having grassy area tracks and not making it look like a railroad station. I think Middle Ground has to be found here
Atlanta isnt paris. Trains arent a one size fits all solutions; especially when you look at the cost base analysis when compared with buses. If it such a smart, and lucrative idea why hasnt the private industry done it? Our entire transportation industry is so entirely fucked, that I think its irreparable.
buses are cheaper in the short term but rail is much better in the long term. imagine how much worse atlanta's transportation would be without marta. it was very expensive to build (luckily it was funded by the federal government) as all heavy rail systems are, but now it's paying off big time. the point about private industry is completely irrelevant. roads are not profitable. subway systems are not profitable (though some are not far from being profitable), and buses are not profitable. it's public infrastructure paid for by our taxes to benefit our city, and that's exactly what beltline rail will do.
Idc what the original plan was for the beltline. Cities are getting rid of their rails for trails. NOT adding rails to trails. All this space in Atlanta and we have to drop a train on the busiest area causing more congestions. You said in your videos yourself the Eastside beltline is overcrowded. What’s the obsession with sticking a train in all of it? I’ve lived in almost every major city in the country and ATL is notoriously bad at building infrastructure. This is one of those bad plans. There are so many other ways to connect the city.
Btw great videos I just don’t agree with how these streetcars will be built and where.
the only way to relieve congestion is to provide alternate means of transportation. that's urbanism/transportation 101. have you thought about accessibility? are people with mobility issues able to use the beltline? what about when it's pouring rain or 100 degrees? look at charlotte's combined light rail and trail. look at the underline in miami. it's not an either/or... if you think people aren't going to get on an air-conditioned streetcar in the summer when it pulls up right in front of ponce city market, you gotta be out of your mind. this project is a slam dunk
I’m sure Nathan didn’t mean it this way, but saying the streetcar doesn’t do much to connect locals/residents is racist (see timestamp 2:21). 90% of the people who use it are African-Americans who live in Atlanta. Are they not “locals?”
I think he just means due to its low ridership and relatively short distance, it doesn't increase connectivity by a whole lot. It's not nothing, but obviously an expanded version would provide much more connectivity
His emphasis at 2:21 was that the streetcar currently doesn’t help “locals & residents” - which is only true if you ignore the African-American resident ridership.
@@AndrewKStein it doesn’t do much “significant connecting” for locals which I’d consider true. if I live next to a streetcar station and want to go to more than a couple miles away I probably won’t take the streetcar there. so I’d agree with him that it does some connecting but not much
If you are lazy and don't want to walk don't go there and take a uber
Are people who rely on wheelchairs to get around lazy?
You wanna whats even more disappointed is their main train station 🚉 (Heavy rail) because usually when you arrive at the train station it leds you right to the downtown. BUT in Atlanta, its very far from downtown, single platforms, and almost not train just tri- weekly 🤕. (It would be good idea if you did make a video about Atlanta station, History to the present day, and how to fix these issues.)
Its on the list 👍👍