Diesels Scrapped after only 10 Years! ~ A Brief History of the British Rail Class 16
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2022
- Today we're looking at the Class 16; a little-known UK diesel locomotive, built by North British as part of BR's 1950s-era Pilot Scheme. Sadly they proved so unreliable that all 10 of them were withdrawn and scrapped by 1969.
(Image Credits):
BCR_766 (Flickr)
Bob Adams (Flickr)
Colin Alexander (Flickr)
Dan Haneckow (Flickr)
George Woods (Flickr)
Graham Clark
Hugh Llewelyn (Flickr)
Jonathan Martin (Flickr)
Michael Philips (Flickr)
P.H. Groom
Rick2E (Flickr)
The Gang of 3 (Flickr)
The KDH Archive (Flickr)
Trevor Casey (Flickr) - Auta a dopravní prostředky
10800 was NEVER known as the Hawk. It was a regular worker between Birmingham (New Street) and Peterborough. It was withdrawn in 1958 and put into storage. In 1961 it was bought by Brush Traction for research. They rebuilt the locomotive and outshopped it in green, at which time it was given the name Hawk, but it did very little work in that condition. Throughout its working life it was known as "Wonder", a name given by the operating staff on the basis, "I wonder if it will start today !"
Sorry, you got something wrong. In all BR diesel locomotives the cooler group is at the front end of the locomotive (number 1 end). This means for the Class 15, Class 16 and Class 20 running in reverse means they are running with the cabs at the leading end.
So basically, "Long Bonnet Forward" is the forward direction for a British road switcher?
That is what I noticed. Locomen would have been used to having the cab at the rear. I still refer to the 'Type' number and I liked the early black and silver livery!
@@russellgxy2905 Definitely for the class 20, because of the poor visibility BR ended up using them in pairs, coupled nose to nose so the cabs are at the outer ends and the lead loco is effectively reversing.
@@russellgxy2905 yes.
Very interesting and informative video. Well done sir. 👍🚂
Fun and insightful history of the Class 16. Salute to Kiwi Rail from Union Pacific country here in Ogden, Utah, USA.
The manufacturer North British went out of business in the early 60s so difficulty in getting replacement parts could have been another reason for their early withdrawal, as well as the lack of work for them (like the Clayton Type 1s and the Swindon shunters)
Fantastic video full of good info.
Apart from the frenetic terpsichorea on the keyboard !
The BIG problem was caused by the haste with which BR instigated the diesel pilot scheme. Instead of properly investigating all current successful practice they invited tenders from a variety of companies including many that had little experience in the rail,loco sector. Many were marine outfits, one good example being the Metropolitan Vickers. The class 28s must have looked good in a glossy brochure but in practice they were less than adequate.
One irony is that, with the exception of the class 55 Deltics, all the major classes had home-grown offerings from BR's own workshops mostly very successful types e.g the 20s which often performed beyond their design limits. The truth is that BR, urged on by a pro-Oil government, scrapped nearly new steam locos of advanced design in favour of a new and largely unproven (in the UK) technology.
France, on the other hand grouped their remaining steam locos at certain strategic sheds (e.g. Le Mans) and went hell for leather on electrification and high speed lines leading to TGV and so on, supported by a relatively few diesel designs in largely supporting roles.
The 28s were not originally included in the Modernisation Plan until Bulleid put his oar in. The BTC wasn't wanting any two-stroke diesels, but Bulleid persuaded them to give them a go. Both two-stroke designs turned out to be failures for various reasons.
I think unreliable diesels on the BR was more a symptom of classic poor British manufacturing quality than it was diesel being too new to the scene. America had already figured out reliable diesel locomotives and had them down pat by the time Britain was testing their early diesels. Meanwhile British Rail was still figuring out how to deal with wheel slip. Some trains still didn't have pneumatic braking systems! What a country.
Without knowing the specifics of NBLs relationship with BR, it was often the case that nationalised industries sub-contracted manufacture for political reasons. So rather than centralise production in one place, it would be offered to companies in regions where government needed votes. This was also true of large companies in the private sector, with the government offering incentives to relocate, or spread production across sites, the Hillman Imp being a case in point. It sounds like it was North British's turn to receive whatever cash was on offer for Type 1 diesels, rather than a serious strategy for future traction.
Nice the see NZR mentioned, I like the class 15s & 16s....well the models anyway. Good video very informative 👍
Wow great video
Enjoyed that, I have a heljan 16 myself 👍
The North British Locomotive company went out of business in 1962.This affected the availability of spare parts & overhaul components for all North British locos in the British Railways inventory, influencing them to withdraw, sell on, cannibalise or scrap North British locos.
Very good presentation. Most of the early BR type 1 diesel locos fell by the wayside, although the English Electric class 20s can still be seen today in preservation, as can the Swindon built "Teddy Bears". I have never seen any of the class 16s in operation ever, but North British did have some success with industrial shunters.
The North British diesels had a peculiar rugged charm about them. I saw the D600 Ark Royal and the Class 29 in Barry Scrapyard in 1979 and the D600 was an amazing machine. I also saw two of the then 4 surviving Class 15's in Stratford shed in 1981 along with a "Toffee Apple" Class 31.
I've certainly heard of D600 (or Class 41). I think they were mentioned in the same book where I first learned of the Class 16.
D601 Ark Royal and Class 21 D6122 were in Barry. D600 Active was there in blue livery, but was cut up in 1970.
@@TheTrainspotterFromTauranga Class 41 as they became were 5 Pilot scheme type 4 Diesel Hydraulics built by NBL. Numbered D600 to D604 they had twin MAN engines with Voith transmission. Very heavy with huge underframe and 2000hp were underpowered and became largely redundant after Class 42/43 entered sevice. All withdrawn on 31 Dec 67. Lovely engines though. I have 2 Dapol models. D600 in blue FYE and D602 in blue HYE. These were the only two to receive blue, the other 3 in green till withdrawal. Very intetesting class. Love all the NBL locos. Dapol also do a class 21/29 and class 22. I have both. Superb models.
Its a great shame no NBL diesels survived into preservation. All apart from the 20 re engined class 21 ( class 29 with Paxman engines) suffered with the license built MAN engines. These included the Class 21 22 41 43 and Blue Pullman power cars. The diesel hydraulic classes were probably the best but became none standard by the early 70s. Class 43 Warships with MAN / Voith transmission set up were very unpopular as the cabs were always full of exhaust fumes. The identical BR Swindon built Class 42 with Maybach/ Mechydro set up were far superior. Two NBL locos Class 41 D601 and Class 21 D6122 did survive in Barry Scrapyard till 1980, but with more people at the time interested in saving Deltics they unfortunately were both cut up. Great shame. Only one NBL product remaines, Electric Class 84 preserved at the NRM. There is a group currently planning to re create a Class 22.
Saw the class 84 at the Bowness and kinneal railway near Linlithgow last year,static display inside shed
Wel made video, I have the same model of 8404 with the Stratford yellow panel.
I have been involved since a while with the restoration of the sole surviving class 15 or BTH type 1 no. 8233 and I can tell from experience that the engines were overly complicated for the hp they could deliver. The class 20 offers more power with half of the number of cylinders.
But still I think it is important to keep even the less successful types of locomotives alive, like the class 28 CoBo in ownership of the same preservation group or the Clayton class 17 at the Chinnor and Princes Risborough Railway.
Nice to see the Price locomotive running in the video, this was at Pukemiro?
I live in the Netherlands but have visited NZ twice, I also do some NZR modelling in Sn 3,5
Glad you’re a kiwi loving our Brit locomotives,we really were good at building our own locos and rolling stock back in the day,now unfortunately it’s all built by foreign manufactures using some of our old works,derby for example(bombardier)
The reason why GM dominated Diesel Electric locomotive making was their reliability as well as adaptability a GM road shunter design in America was ordered by CIE in the early 1960’s as a mainline locomotive the 121 they had to make it lower to deal with the lower bridges and tunnels and different Bogies due to different maximum weight capability in Ireland
A couple of minor points, firstly, a class 20 has the visibility problem when running forwards, not in reverse, the cab end was considered to me the rear of the loco, and the visibility issue is actually considerably better on a steam loco as the boiler is round, so, to an extent, you can see over the top, where as a loco such as a 20 is square meaning the top corners get in the way.
I was just about to write the same thing, I've noticed that a lot of people believed it to be the opposite way round in thinking that the cab end is the front, but basically it's a steam locomotive with a diesel engine and no tender. The 08, 09 shunters were the exact same setup...nose first 😊
@@garethgilmour9021the number one end of most BR diesel locomotives was the end with the cooler group.
finally a history about class 16. I just subscribed to this channel.
can you please a history video about class 15?
I hadn't thought of making a video on the 15s, but I might consider it.
@@TheTrainspotterFromTauranga
or if BR class 15 is not interesting to you.
try the BR class 41 warships.
@@TheTrainspotterFromTauranga go on,do it please
During the hell-bent-for-leather rush to diesel eyes railroads around the world many diesel locomotives were built with engines that were perfectly satisfying and other duties. The Fairbanks Morse opposed twin diesel engine was widely used in submarines in the Navy but the pride of the cooling water of the ran hot and were difficult to service but they provided twice as much power in one locomotive but you had twice as much maintenance. Westinghouse made good electrical equipment for diesel switching locomotive and streetcars but when they got into higher horsepower engine ratings they suffered failures and withdrew from the business. It's one thing to have an electrical failure putting an engine out of service it is quite another thing to have the crankshaft come out the side of the engine. The scrapping of serviceable steam locomotives all over the world is an unpardonable sin.
Crossley Diesel Locomotive engines were the bane of Irish locomotive drivers and secondmen in the 1950’s and 1960’s
There's just something about the Norbrits (Class 16s) that interests me, It's hard for me to explain. But all I know is that they're very cool to look at and study, And I have a model of D8404 in Stratford livery.
problem with NBL diesels were they had a deal to build MAN engines under license but unlike the steam loco's the tolerances one the engines were much finer and they had major issues with power plant failures, this led to NBL getting locos returned for improvement that in the end sent them bankrupt
Good video but a BR Class 20 is actually going in "reverse" with the cab leading as No1 end is the nose end!
Stratford London - know it well
10 mins bus ride away
Steam locomotives were a work of art. Because New York City outlawed steam locomotives within the city limits Baldwin came out with the first diesel Switcher. They were very good locomotive. The steam locomotive companies were used to building locomotive to the customer's specifications they did the same thing with diesel locomotives therefore their locomotives for more expensive that's a EMD which just made one kind and you were stuck with it. The steam locomotive Builders built diesel locomotive according to the customer's wishes. Like when you order a car and you decide what it comes equipped with and as it goes down the assembly line it is equipped with those parts. Chapman used to maintaining steam locomotive were not used to maintaining diesel locomotive and expensive lessons were learned the hard way.
The problem with Baldwin is that they could not MU with AAR equipment and that they made their diesels in the same fashion as steam engines. Each wiring run or blower placement was slightly different, well. This increased maintenance costs which caused them to very quickly fall out of favor once ALCO, FM, and EMD showed up with proper switcher locomotives.
hi great video and greetings from england.i think these locos should have been given a chance. if there was engine problems that was down to Paxman to put right, also they could have been made to run in multiple, pity none were saved.but could be re built if the money is put up
Yes indeed. It's a shame BR didn't give them a chance.
I remember 8234 in Liverpool Street as the resident shunter
The Film footage is even more rare than the model of The Class 16 but if you get the DVD title Diesel and Electric on 35mm Volume 1 you will be able to see one or two film shots of them in action.
I didn't know there was any surviving footage of the 16s.
@@TheTrainspotterFromTauranga If you look up the following CZcams channel Railroad Treasures 247 they have uploaded The said title. When you have time of course.
@@TheTrainspotterFromTauranga didn't you? Have a penalty
Which one of the Classes was the DE NZR diesel based on. Was that just clever artwork if that pair of class?? diesels were pulling a train in BR Blue
The NZR DE was predating most of the BR classes, they were built by English Electric and had a 6SRKT engine, this engine was a turbocharged variant of the engine use in the British Rail classes 08-09-11-12-13, the DE was delivered in 1952, and by then only shunters of class 11 and 12 and a few other types of shunters and prototype diesel electric mainline locomotives had been delivered in the UK, of which most turned out to be of EE manufacture.
EE delivered many export types from the late 1940s onward to many countries of the commonwealth, resulting in some African countries being dieselised earlier than the UK itself.
Other EE classes in NZ were the DG-DH and Di classes. Locomotives very similar to the DE were delivered to Tasmania.
ns class 2400, basically same thing. you can't see where you're going. lol. (now who on earth would consider it a good idea to order locomotives where you can't see where you're heading ;) although with the ns2400 they at least tried to weld a cabin to the roof later on to one of them. :P to make it somewhat usable. lol.
Having just looked up pictures of the NS 2400, I see why you've mentioned it in relation to the Class 16.
Must be a cultural thing. Over in the US there were plenty of "Hood units" with high hoods. Hell, two railroads in the South - Southern Railway & Norfolk & Western -- would run their engines with the Long Hood Forward. This even continued after they merged with each other to make Norfolk Southern and only stopped in the late 80s I think.
You'd figure British crews would be a tad more at home with a layout like this, since they kept running steam longer than America, but I guess not?
@@russellgxy2905 America ran the long hood forwards to keep crews "safer" in the event of a head-on collision as the "front" of the locomotive would be there to take the impact. This was common practice as not all locomotives had anticlimbers at the time.
Didn't the prototype get it's name "Hawk" when Brush had it as a testbed?
Exactly. It was never known as "Hawk" when in service.
Liked the musical cheese.
They're far from the only British rolling stock that had short lifetimes due to being rubbish.
Check out the London underground 1983 stock.
I've known about the '83 stock for many years now. They were basically a deep-level version of the D78 stock (later Class 230 or 484).
dont you mean locomotive
@@bluestarproductions2033 no. The London underground trains are multiple unit electric stock. The only locomotives they have are for maintenance trains.
Have you heard of Hatton’s SECR E2?
Yes, I have heard of it. But it's actually a Hornby model, and apparently a crude recolour of Thomas.
@@TheTrainspotterFromTauranga Sorry I forgot to put the manufacturer name.
They look more akin to fm trainmasters
DIESELLOK BRITISH RAIL CLASS 16
Ah yes.
A German class 24 with IC coaches at the Hamburg S-Bahn Network.
I enjoy making those kinds of scenes.
lol the 1295 joke
* God please make me good engine that will last for a long time *
"Hello sir, who am i?"
"A Class 16"