Britain's Most Powerful Diesel - HS4000 Kestrel
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
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Hello everybody! :D
In a bid to develop a 125mph diesel locomotive for the British railway network, Hawker Siddeley, in collaboration with Brush Traction, created the 4,000hp HS4000 Kestrel, a unique prototype that became Britain's most powerful single-engined diesel upon its launch in 1967, but would sadly never see a subsequent production fleet released in its wake due to the changing policies of the BR management towards the APT and the HST of the 1970s.
Instead, the HS4000, despite its incredible technology that was leaps and bounds beyond BR's contemporary locomotive roster, as well as its sheer power, would lead a short and inauspicious life in the UK before being shipped to the Soviet Union, where its power unit was found to be more useful than the locomotive itself, thus resulting in this formidable machine being reduced to an engineless shell rotting in a yard outside Moscow.
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References:
- Derby Sulzers (and their respective sources)
- The Railway Magazine (and their respective sources)
- Wikipedia (and its respective references) - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I worked at the Brush factory in Loughborough during the build of the Kestrel. There’s not many of us left (I’m 84)
What I’d like to say is that initiatives like funding and building by a private enterprise on speculation a new locomotive is a thing of the past. It relied on a few farsighted individuals to champion the project.
They are long gone but need to be remembered.
Freddy Beasant the head of Brush Traction at the time, a great character parties at his house were legendary , Mac Durber the Production Director, Pat Fordham Commercial Director, and most importantly Geoff Smith the head of Rotating Machines design. He always built in what was known as the GS factor knowing that the commercial and sales people would always be pushing him to reduce weight and so the GS factor would gradually be used bit by bit. He was one of Europe’s greatest rotating machines designers.
He Anyone else out there who can fill in more names from that most enterprising era?
I went on to look after Brush Traction’s interests in Australia in 1966 leaving them in 1979 to pursue a new career.
you are right, in todays woke diversity world it really will never happen
Initiatives like funding and building by a private enterprise on speculation a new locomotive is very much alive and well in the Progressive European Union Countries , the Common Market . (BREL built good Locos too) , General Motors and General Electric from Canada and the USA are performing excellently .
As usual, we suffered once again from under investment and Privatization , Kestrel was Brilliant , as were the Class 47s and the rest of Brush Traction products. Our home produced A/C locos are still gainfully employed in Rumania and Bulgaria, whil we import new from the continent. All for more profits for the ROSCOS and the Banks . ..at our expense.
She's a beaut, shame we lost her.
design is kinda similar to DB class 218
@@Advancedkid ill fainted DIESEL !
Why support Allah ?
Somewhere in Russia, claimed use for scrap metals.
When you first went over the performance figures, I thought to myself "Man that's a lot of power. I wonder how they managed to fit that onto 20 ton max axle loading"
Looks like a German loco
@@cv990a4 Reminds me of the class 218
helium balloons
Very attractive design - and livery!
GE managed it with the class 70.
When DB bought EWS in 2007 a group of engineers from Cottbus works in Eastern Germany visited Toton. The engineers commented in DDR days they studied in the USSR and were very familiar with Kestrel ! There were a few withdrawn class 47s in the yard which amused them.
It must have been a nostalgic visit for the engineers, seeing the familiar Kestrel wagons and old class 47 locomotives at Toton, after their studies in the USSR during the DDR days.
It's interesting how knowledge and technology can transcend borders and time. The engineers' familiarity with Kestrel and their amusement at seeing old class 47s in the yard shows the interconnected nature of the railway industry.
It's interesting to hear that the engineers from Cottbus were familiar with Kestrel from their time studying in the USSR. The withdrawn class 47s must have brought back memories for them.
DB in the uk, how low we have gone
@@bobtudbury8505 it's what we voted for.
Such an elegant machine 👍🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 Great video - as always!
She's a true beauty, it's such a shame that we lost her. Her presence will be deeply missed, and her memory will always be cherished.
Yes, she truly was a beauty. It's a shame we couldn't hold on to her. She will be missed dearly.
Yes, she was a real beauty. It's too bad we couldn't keep her. She will be missed for sure.
This diesel was a prototype and shame it was not preserved
By whom? Remember that it ended its days as a derelict hulk in the Soviet Union.
@@northernblue1093I’m sorry but are you saying that this locomotive “Kestrel “ ended up in Russia??? Since when???!!
Watch the video and you will find out
the russias should have shipped it back to the uk when it ran out off use for them it would have found a good home in the uk what a waste
Sadly so many classic buses and locomotives / Multiple Units were never preserved.
As you were reading through the technical description, I thought, "I really want to hear Ruairidh read the 'Turbo-encabulator' script!"
...or the Retro-Encabulator script. He could finally demystify us on the issue of side-fumbling.
@@jimtaylor294 Nofer trunnions anyone?
@@BrianMorrison Yes, with a bed of pre-famulated amulite 😌👌
Her gentle presence and kind spirit will always be remembered by those she touched. Though she may be gone, her memory lives on in our hearts, leaving a legacy of love and admiration that will never fade.
My Grandad who was a Blacksmith and engineer at Derby works sat me in tbe cab of HS4000 when it was on display at Derby's locomotive works open day , I was only 5 years old at the time , and my grandad said I wasn't keen on the large crowds that surrounded the loco at the time ....happy memories
I saw it at the same event, assuming it was only there once. Very impressive beast, that stood out in its unique colour scheme .
Her gentle presence and kind spirit will always be remembered by those fortunate enough to have known her. Though she may have passed on, the impact of her love and compassion continues to resonate, creating a legacy that will never be forgotten.
The cab area always reminds me of the sidewinder from thunderbirds episode 2 pit of fire it’s a truly late 60s design and still looks cool
She will always be cherished for her gentle spirit, her compassion, and her positive energy. Her legacy of love and kindness will continue to inspire others, and her memory will be a source of comfort and strength for those who knew her.
Her gentle presence and kind spirit touched the hearts of many, leaving a lasting impression that will never fade. Though she may no longer be physically present, the impact she made on those who knew her will always be remembered with love and admiration.
That was fascinating for a Saturday. Thank you.
A beautiful locomotive! The design has striking similarity with the DB class 103 electrics. Keeping in mind how long it would take to electrify the ECML and SWML this locomotive would have had a place in the traction envelope even despite the introduction of the HST. The engine type Sulzer LVA24 but as a 12 cylinder was tested in a batch of 47s which were then reclassified as class 48.
These tests weren't that successful but that seemed to be caused by a locating pin to avoid the lower and upper big end bearing shells being fitted the wrong way round, that was discovered by the French National Railways who used the same engine in the class A1A-A1A 68000, only after a BR senior engineer visited a SNCF workshop where he was told that the French had done away with this pin and the hole in the lower shell reliable operation could be achieved, Also Kestrel was struck by a big end failure because of this. The locating pin caused a pressure point and uneven wear of the bearing.
The 16LVA24 and the AC/DC traction equipment from Kestrel led eventually to the locomotive class TEP70 in the Soviet Union, however the engine 5D49 used in this class was not a straight copy like some of the earlier Soviet Diesel engines copied from US designs.
Further noteworthy is that the Belgian railways had their own experimental 4000hp single engine diesel locomotive built 3 years after Kestrel, it was a class 51 diesel converted from its 8 in line Cockerill / Baldwin 608A to the the newly developed Cockerill 16TR240, a V16 with an AC alternator. it was tested four years and although the tests were a success also NMBS decided that there was no need for a diesel of such power, the engine was removed and placed in a canal ship and the locomotive built back to its original configuration.
Very interesting video. Now that was a magnificent machine, perfect balance of form and function. Although the 4000hp was a headline grabber, the electric traction equipment was also state of the art. Today it hasn't been equaled in terms of diesel locomotive power output, and, as for designers of modern traction, I think they attended the crashed skip school of design for the class 68 and 70s.
She was a true beauty inside and out, and her loss leaves a void that can never be filled. Her presence will be deeply missed by all who knew and loved her, and her memory will forever be cherished in our hearts.
She truly was a beauty, inside and out. It's heartbreaking that we couldn't keep her with us longer. Her absence will be deeply felt by all who knew and loved her.
Her gentle presence and kind spirit will be forever cherished by those whose hearts she touched. She may be gone, but her memory lives on in the hearts of those who were fortunate enough to know her, leaving a legacy of love and admiration that will never fade.
Was lucky enough to see it at full speed on a passenger service at Danby Whiske, so either 1969 or 1970 (memory fading)
The days of monster engines . . . .Fantastic!
It is absolutely wild to me that this loco developed 4,000 HP well before anything else on just one engine. In BRITAIN no less. Apart from steam or electric locomotives, the only way to get that sort of power in the States was with a gas turbine! It took over a decade for us to have diesels that powerful. Hell even when the power race was spurred by western railroads, Kestrel beat any American offerings with one powerplant by 3 years.
EMD had a small number of SD45X's that developed 4,200 HP from a 20-cylinder 645E3A. Shortly after that MLW made a single M640 with an 18-251F engine. Curiously, not only did the M640 use the only example I know of an 18 cylinder V-line engine, but it also became an AC traction locomotive in the 80's. Whereas Kestrel lost some tractive effort, the M640 lost a pair of traction motors, going from a C-C/Co-Co to an A1A-A1A. It very nearly lasted to the 2000's, and thankfully is preserved.
Had Hawker-Siddeley expanded their locomotive arm to Canada like they did with aircraft, perhaps the LRC trains could've appeared earlier on Canadian rails. Something akin to how the HST was adapted into the XPT for Australia.
She will always be remembered as a kind and caring soul, who brought joy and light to everyone she met. Her passing is a tragic loss, but her spirit will continue to inspire us and guide us through difficult times. May she rest in peace, knowing she was loved and adored by many.
Not sure where you got a decade from. The first SD45X was built in 1970, only 3 years behind Kestrel's 1967 debut. MLW's M640 was also only a year behind the SD45X, making its debut in 1971. Yes, the first serial production 4000HP+ diesel locomotives didn't enter service in North America until about two decades later with the B40-8 and C40-8, but Kestrel wasn't exactly a serial production unit either.
10800's rubbish Paxman 16YHXL engine and generator were binned by Brush and replaced with the Maybach MD655 that was used in Class 52, (and Brush's Falcon prototype,) to trial the alternator and associated technology.
DC generators were effectively limited to 2700hp at the time, as above that electrical flashover would cause damage and destroy the machine. This is why figuring out the AC alternator was critical to enabling a 4000hp single diesel engine to be used in a unit.
It really did deserve better than what it got.
Simply WOW!!! Imagine pulling a load in multiple.
Requirements: weight, efficiency, price, reliability and versatility please.
Kestrel: nah, let's ignore all that and just go for max power, that is what is needed right?
The Clarkson engineering approach
@@restojon1 where's my hammer
If you think about the class 70 and 66 locomotives that weight in at 130 tonnes class 70 actually at 131 tonnes they were not that far off .
Then BR changed the rules to use two power cars on HST, yet still needed class 56, 59 and 66 for freight. A loco ahead of its time.
@@john1703The HST was kinder to the track, and offered greater redundancy than a single locomotive. I’d say they made the right call.
I have to point out the Tilt Train is, in fact, a success, currently operating, exactly where they were meant for.
Daily high speed services up and down the narrow gauge rail on the Queensland coast, by Queensland Rail.
And, like NSW are finding with their still operating HST, replacing them seems almost impossible.
The HSTs are remarkable trains. They keep getting resurrected and frankly are still a lot better than some of the modern rubbish
Her impact on those around her was truly profound, and her legacy will live on through the countless lives she touched. She will forever be remembered for her warmth, her generosity, and her unwavering belief in the power of love.
That's interesting.
I ❤ trains, trams, take a ride, I have a folder on ''transportation''
(folder 2, in playlists) you will love them too :)
Well researched and produced thanks!
French Railways CC72000 were of a similar concept.
There were slightly less powerful (3600HP), but lighter (114t), and were also of CC design, used an alternator, diode rectifiers and DC motors.
These engines were a success and were phased out only recently after 50 years of service.
I don't see the value of the concept of an extremely powerful locomotive with a huge and rare, if not custom built, engine, when by then they knew that any power level could be attained simply by attaching any number of off the shelf, remote control B units as with the extremely reliable EMD F series A and B units. Though I'm not sure what the highest gearing was that EMD offered for F units.
@@alan6832because of reasons you just said, one unit instead of many for the same power. I’m sure if approved, would have gone into production, with economy of scale keeping costs down! Just another lost opportunity.
and it also had two traction motors,each motor powered all three axles on each bogie
@@alan6832 Meanwhile I don't really see the value behind a B unit. You can just add another A unit instead for more versatility in service. And A units are just as able to be driven remotely from the other engine. It comes down to people actually wanting one engine to do the job, one unit to need maintainance, and not several engines which may need separate ones. Also you can make the engine itself more efficient by concentrating all in one unit. The smallest engines can be the least efficient when it comes to moving the same loads at the same speeds with the same amount of required maintainance.
@@damonrobus-clarke533 It's too big to mass produce under any circumstances, especially when massed produced units will do.
Shame it wasn’t brought back to the uk for restoration even as a static exhibit.
What a pity that class 40 type leading and trailing steering axles were not fitted, to reduce the individual axle loadings, since they both weighed 133 tons.
Brilliant video about HS4000, I saw this diesel locomotive several times, noteably on the east coast main line at Durham on a Kings Cross to Newcastle service.
Fascinating story. Thank you Ruairidh 👍
Oh wow, The Kestrel. I remember seeing one of these hauling Iron Ore up the Ebbw Valley through Llanhilleth back in the 70s.
What you saw was Falcon , another prototype diesel locomotive , albeit a less powerful design with twin engines of around 1400hp .
Kestrel was based at Shirebrook West for a while working coal trains down to March in Cambridgeshire, I was a guard at Shirebrook at the time.
@kevinsylvester770 it was a long time ago. But was in BR green and had lots of ventilation grills down the side, making it look different to the usual Brush types that hauled up the valley.
@@DaiElsan I'm envious , would loved to have seen Falcon , or Kestrel come to that !
@@DaiElsan Falcon had a much more angular-looking cab, somewhat reminiscent of a Hymek and was green. Kestrel was a one-off and only ever appeared in a mustard yellow over brown livery.
Thanx Ruairidh ...... your commentaries are getting so much better, now that you are limiting the length of any one sentence !!!!! Please take your time to explain all this good stuff, even if it means making a slightly longer video. You are alone out there, with all the detail you offer.
Fantastic video interesting and informative as always
An absolute beast! years ahead of its time took till the 1990s for the Americans to ffit 4,000 plus in their locos and typical of the small mind set of Britain's railways should have given it to Gerard Finies on the ECML to play with
You have to remember that the US class ones are extremely conservative outfits. And in the 1960's anything above 3000hp was either not reliable or fuel hungry. The ALCO C636, GE U36B/C and the EMD SD/GP45 weren't exactly known for their bulletproof reliability in road service.
Gerry Fiennes, legend ..
Enough EDS/GE units running around the US now not to forget FLs hell fire Class 70s
@@andrewganley9016 Hellfire? Try driving them. I was trained on those contraptions from new, and to this day it ain't pleasant.
The EMD DDA40X is 6,600 hp....
The Class 52 was not a Type 5 loco, despite it being numbered in the fifties. It only produced 2700hp (when both engines were running!)
Class 52 locos were never numbered in the 50's, from there beginnings right through to scrapping the Class %" Western Loco's alwas had GWR type cast numbe p[lates on there cab sides and were numbered in the D1000 number range
@@peterwilliamallen1063 as you say, there was no application of the TOPS numbering range (remaining 1000 to 1073 rather than 52001 to 52074) but it did get the TOPS 'type 5' range classification of 52 - that is what I actually meant by being 'numbered'; it also should be remembered - for the nerds, anyway - that the Brush Type 2 was also numbered in the 'type 3' range, 30 then 31 and, like the Western, the Class 50 was also a type 4 and not a type 5...
Likewise a Class 70 is a diesel loco, not a DC electric loco, despite.being numbered in the DC electric number series like the 71, 73, 74, 76 and 77.
@@vicsams4431 Exactly (and also likewise, the class 77 never carried a 77 number...)
I have this locomotive in OO Gauge. Its a beautiful model and a very attractive locomotive.
Another brill vid. Thank you :)
What a sexy beast it looks . I once saw this locomotive but can't remember for the life of me were it was .
Excellent as ever.
Excellent once again ❤
Awsome resesrch and very well presented😊
This is very very elegant!
Fascinating as always, thank you again.
The Vulcan Works was NEVER based in Cheshire. At the time of production the foundry’s Newton-le-Willows were part of Lancashire until 1974 when the town council lost its independence and was absorbed into Merseyside where it has been ever since.
Correct information
A beautiful piece of engineering and aesthetics
Great vid.
My favourite prototype, with Lion coming a close second. The NRM in York has the named body panel which is pretty much all that's left I think.
A fascinating piece of engineering history.
This locomotive was in Crewe Works in 1971, a refit was needed for the Russian railways gauge which is wider than the UK gauge. Then it was shipped off to Russia. Being an apprentice at the time in these workshops I had a good look over inside the loco, an may even have done work on it. This was a very impressive loco.
I remember seeing this loco at Heaton Carriage sidings when it was allowed to work passenger trains. Very impressive.
Very interesting, and beautifully researched, put together and narrated.
I'm a bit fussy about narration, but I simply can't understand the comment saying the narration is "terrible". On the contrary, it was admirable, delivered with excellent clarity and fluency.
The only thing I'd change (hobby horse coming!) is the pronunciation of the letter "H". The correct pronunciation is "aitch", and that is also how this letter's name is spelled. It is not "haitch". There's no "h" at the beginning of "aitch", just as there's no "m" at the beginning of "em", no "f" at the beginning of "ef", and no "s" at the beginning of "ess". But "H" is very commonly mispronounced as "haitch", so everyone's used to it.
Beautiful British machine.
I can now fully understand why people love this machine
Sort of lives on as the TEP70 locomotive now.
Excellent comment !
The TEP70 is exactly Kestrel mechanically and electrically. Although a different body deign.
I'm sure back in the 1960s, when I was about 8/9, it used to go past Reading.
I love old trains. Modern trains are dull.
To offer much advantage over a Deltic , it probably needed to run at 125mph and it was too heavy to do that , plus there was no rolling stock suitable for that speed . Was always going to be more suitable for freight , but even that didn't really require 4000hp at that time . Beautiful loco though !
She's a case of so near and yet so far, of the great one-offs, Lion, Falcon, Kestrel & Avocet, only the last survived into preservation. I'm looking forward to both the Falcon and Avocet videos when they arrive.
Beautiful loco to see in the flesh......we all know it went to the USSR.....but would love to know more?
I would love to see the Kestrel born again with modern British technology and engineering.
I could see it scare locos like the sheds
Calum made such perfect documentary about Baghdad Super Express car train without rails 😮
Great video, unique style of narration.
Was the Kestrel a bit of inspiration for heavy locomotives as those red beasts from Vorochilov (Luhansk), also sold to the GDR or more recent heavy diesels in China (pulling up to 18 railcars at 160 km/h Vmax?
Most interesting.
One wonders what the 'Kestrel' sounded like?
Does enough information exist re the 'Never, Never' Class 51 to represent it with some confidence in model form. Again, one wonders where a sound track would come from?
Enjoyed video. Thankyou.
Saw it at tinsley depot. We were thrown out by the shed foreman leaning out of a brush type 2!
Wow, I remember the Kestrel being announced and had forgotten all about it. A Sad story.
Were there ever any gas turbine locos, I would have thought turbine-electric could have worked well?
At that point in time(1960's),Alco had its C series[Century] diesels in development. Using the 251,type,and AC/DC transmission,there was a C640 prototype,and C636 production engines! So,yes,Alco was ahead of the curve,as practically all engines,now produced have AC traction motors! Really wondered,what happened to the Kestrel,sad ending! But it did have progeny,so in the long haul,it had grandsons,and daughters all over the world! INDIA,now has 3rd generation engines in operation,so that's one example! Thank you 😇 😊!
And EMD put out modularized printed circuits in 1969 on the DD40AX Centennials. Those would prove to be the foundation of the "Dash 2" series, which in turn would lead to the Class 59.
I missed it when it visited the West Riding of Yorkshire and was jealous of those who did manage to catch it.
The loco was stored at Healey Mills for a couple of months prior to the move to Barrow.
As a train driver myself, much of what the narrator was saying has completely baffled me. I'm referring to the traction motor mountings, etc. They don't teach us that on the traction course. In 1988 I was trained on classes 81 to 87 and I still couldn't explain what an Alsthom quill drive is.
You got your information about NBL 10800 somewhat wrong. It worked for 9 years not two, and had very conventional BTH DC transmission, its main failing was the use of aluminium cylinder heads of the engine, which whilst worked well for constant power outputs didn't work with stop start nature of railways. Brush bought it as it was the right size for their experiments and was available at the time.
Should have built more of these for freight work seeing as it would have had higher reliability than the 56s..
The class 56 was Kestrel’s successor.
@@22pcirish If the Class 56 had been a Sulzer there wouldn't have been the UK railfan reaction to the re-engined Class 69s...
@@danielsellers8707 The engine it had was developed from that in the class 40 and 50!
@@22pcirish Yes, with a turbo like the HST.
I saw her at Hull Docks before her export to USSR
The body shape has some similarities to the DB E03.0 of 1965 that lead to the famous class 103 series which dominated intercity trains in the 1970s and 1980s.
I've often thought about repainting my old Fleischmann 103 in Kestrel livery, stood next to my Heljan Kestrel. ;-)
I'm not convinced that 2 engines is that much of an issue in terms of maintenance. The engine on the Class 47 was a U-engine which is basically 2 separate engines stacked next to each other. 2 crankshafts, camshafts etc.
Of course the Deltic had an opposed piston engines which are very complicated, though quite elegant and with very high performance.
10800 was built by NBL but with standard DC electric transmission, not the AC transmission implied by our presenter. And whilst it is true that this locomotive proved to be less than idealit has to be taken into account that it was often used on trains than it wasn't capable of handling. It was only given AC traction equipment after Brush had purchased it in 1961. DC power generation, for single generator fitted locomotives, becomes more prone to flash overs for engines with power greater than 2,700hp.
I am not sure that statement is true.
America and Canada regularly use 4,400 hp for decades, and more recently 6,600 hp without flashover issues. Most loco fires being either exhaust fires or traction motor or brake issues.
Classes 68 and 70 in the UK are also much higher powered. Although more recent builds, flashovers have not been an issue either.
@polythenewrappedme6102 the Class 70 uses an alternator not a generator. The structuarl differences prevent flashovers.
Even though this locomotive was never adopted by British Rail it does go to highlight some of the issues with British Rail management during this time. Namely the The Advanced Passenger train and the wasted investment on this project. Only to be usurped by the intercity 125 being developed as a separate project by engineers and not accountants. Feels like HS2.
4000hp! As the driven wheels are steel on steel rails, how much wheel slip is there at high speed?
A beautiful loco. It's a shame Kestrel wasn't developed further, as I'm sure additional weight savings could be found over time and that home and overseas orders would have seen this as a commercial success.
Could you do one on D0260 _Lion?_
Cracking video that photo' of her rotting in Russia is a rare one.
So aside from "Management said so", what harm would Kestrel's weight brought to the Infrastructure?
All Rory's remarks point to this having been a sound design,
What about some Belgium early diesel or electric technology?
I'm having a hard time finding anything substantial despite literally working on them
How were the bogies adapted to the USSR track gauge?
For a while it worked freightliner trains out of Hull.
Its fascinating how impactful the Kestrel was to Russian diesel locomotive design. The locos have an uncanny hint of Britishness that you can't unsee.
Bought to copy the technology ...
@@damienhill6383 Yes the Chinese / Korean / Russian "Class 47" equivalent looks a lot Kestrel (Chinese / Korean DF4 for example).
In 1985, I wrote to the Leningrad city council requesting information as to Kestrel's whereabouts, but never received a reply. This has now been provided (via this video, 10:40). A sad end for a very fine machine.
There were stories a couple of years ago that Kestrel lasted beyond the date it was supposedly scrapped. I suppose with the current situation with Russia we will never really know.
hey, can you do the class 90 next?
I can think of 6 private building ventures starting with the Fell locomotive. Only the Fell locomotive wasn't designed to meet a specific BTC/BR specification. The Kestrel was designed to meet such a specification,but it was too heavy.
The only reason the Fell loco was not a national design by BR/BTC, was its design predated nationalisation. It was built to a LMS design under Ivatt. By the time it was built, it came under the LM Region of BR, and the loco was outshopped under BR livery.
@@polythenewrappedme6102 which is what I said.
It wasn't exported through Hull but Newport docks.
Did you know there is a replica of HS4000 at the Swanley New Barn Railway in Kent.
As they got permission apprently, the whole thing is almost the same one in real life, the only difference is it has a different engine.
(Some knowledge from SNBR website, some from in real life)
Thank you for posting this. I'll get down there and have a nosey, cheers mate 👍
@@restojon1 You're welcome! It does runs most weekends, but sometimes it can end up spare or not out at all
4400hp is about ubiquitous in North America these days….and we drag 30,000 tons all over the place…albeit up to three on head end, and maybe two or three in the middle
Yeah, but we're talking the '60's here.
I mean obviously electrics have so much more power, the last of the legendary 103's we're near 14,000 hp in one loco, but for a single unit diesel in the '60's it was unheard of.
West Aus gets 80,000 to 90,000 tons, and of course the split prime mover power was developed by the Aus railways
Typical BR. They have a 125mph loco with a 120mph speedo !
The stringent weight restriction was for high speed locomotives. The HST power cars have axle loading of below 18 tons. 20 tons was selected for high speed locomotives to reduce the impact on the track.
An HST power car weighs 64 tonnes, and sits on 4 axles, so it's axle weight is 16 tonnes or RA5.
Unlike the Class 185 DMU which can operate in up to 12 car formations (4 x 3 car), an IC125 is authorised to operate at MU differential speeds providing it has a minimum of three Mark 3 coaches, of RA1, between the power cars to distribute the weight over structures, as bridge resonance can occur at speeds over 100 mph.
The Class 67 is also a 125 mph loco. However, it weighs in at 22.5 tonnes axle weight (or RA8) and has only been given special authorisation to operate up to 125 mph between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads only.
@vicsams4431 data taken from the diagram book produced bt BR. These give the weight as 70 tonnes (or 77.2tons) and the empty axle loadings as between 16.245 tonnes (or 17.9 tons) on the third axles and 16.82 tonnes (or 18.54 tons) on the second axle (the loaded axle loadings being between 17.27 tonnes (or 19 tons) and 17.88 tonnes (19.71 tons) respectively). The diagrambooks are available on line.
Power is only useful when it can be applied to the rail without slippage this is why deltic didn’t get export interest, to pull very long trains the Americans would use a cabbed locomotive with cabless slave locomotives to spread the tractive effort more efficiently.
is it really accurate to assume or declare that any UK locomotive was faster, and more powerful than the Deltic's? While complex, the Deltics were very reliable, efficient and had little down time.
Do remember of course that deltics down time was pretty much built into the EE/BR contract: if a unit was faulty it was pulled and replaced as a whole, not repaired in place, thereby as long as a spare prime mover was on hand their downtime had to be short
@@muir8009 because of the shear size of the Deltic and the placement of cylinders and associated fixtures and accessories, servicing them inside of a locomotive car body was not practical. In marine and stationary power applications, that was not the case. So removing a prime mover was a requirement for servicing in a locomotive application.
@3RTracing exactly, and one also reads between the lines with the contract deal and I don't think EE/Napier trusted the old ex-steam fitters with the scary bits :)
@3RTracing. A good question. Let me answer that.
The Head of Ilford Training School started on an LTS tank engine, Thundersley. Later as a Top Link Man at Kings Cross, he was a the test driver for both the Deltic and the HST. Having got 138 mph unofficially out of a Deltic, I asked him to say something complementary about my favourite British loco, the Class 45 Peak.
He replied, if you and I left Kings Cross at the same time, you driving a Peak and I driving a Deltic, you would reach Welwyn Viaduct first, but after that I would be hard on your heals.
The Class 45 Peak was Britain's fastest accelerating diesel loco due to being fitted with five field diverts. The Classtgat Deltic only had three field diverts. You notch up quicker on a Peak. I have also had 115 mph out of a Peak in three occasions. He replied, that is pretty good going. At 118 mph the armatures spin off the traction motors. Before adding, I shall not tell you how I found that out !!
With being able to do push pull and with a high speed we may not have needed the expensive to run Intercity 125
Vulcan is in Newton le Willows is under St Helens Merseyside
So...when is the UK going to use a few EMD SD 70 Ace Engines? The US has been trading out DC Traction Motors for the better AC versions...
A SD70MAC is a fine loco. I have had several on the Alaska Railroad. However, they are too large for the British loading gauge.
"Prime Mover" - what a cool name for an engine
Such a shame… great video.
A classic case of "what if".
A speculative creation made possible by the new engine of 4000 metric horse power ,never likely to be adopted by BR who had no role for it .
Not true. The HST / IC125 sets which served BR well for many decades since first introduced in 1976, are exactly that. 4,500 hp split over two 64 ton power cars, in a fixed formation. The concept of high power and high speed is sound, it is just a heavy weight is less popular with track and structures engineers.
Reminds me of a time when the British lent the Russians a battleship for their Baltic fleet and just didn't bother looking after it. When it was returned all of the main battery turrets had ceased completely, engines were virtually shot and was only fit for the scrap yard. Such a shame, and it seems a similar fate met this fine locomotive.
meh, if you would be really in topic - west always supplied an outdated tech to soviets and always tried to fool russians. The most notorius was the scandal during purchase of Fiat car factory in Italy, they deliberately trying to sell a yesterday tech and russian engineers clearly viewing that discovered a corruption bureacratic wall between 2 countries, almost was fired but forced italians to sell a current date(next gen tech not even offered) car engine for factory built in Samara city.
Considering UK, during Tetris rights saga there was clearly corruption link between Gorbachev and Maxwell UK computer corpo when japanese entered soviets. Your oligarch thought that soviet area was his personal interests zone to sell only UK computers of questionnable quality and freshness.
Most recent i remember story of purchasing Mistral military helicopter ship from France, which failed and still questionnable tech in the time of drones this bucket is useless. In trains - Germany taken all market, all fast trains (near 200km/h) are provided by Siemens with joint model venture called Sapsan, but the ticket prices on these trains x2 higher & longer than any airplane and currently developed bullet train lines presumably for chinese trains i believe(which based on siemens) are super corruption projects, which lost competition, it can't beat airplane prices even sitting on gov budget.