Rule Delta? Response to War on Sensemaking
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- In the recent hit War on Sensemaking series, Daniel Schmachtenberger talked about how the 'information ecology' was so damaged, and what we might do about it.
He discussed protocols such as 'Rule Omega': • Rule Omega: Greenhall,...
In this short clip Rebel Wisdom's David Fuller and Alexander Beiner propose a 'Rule Delta' for interpersonal dialogue.
Let us know what you think.
War on Sensemaking: • The War on Sensemaking...
War on Sensemaking 2: • War on Sensemaking II,...
Daniel will be at the Rebel Wisdom Festival in May 2020 - see here: www.rebelwisdo...
You can listen to podcast versions of our films on Spotify or Apple Podcasts by searching 'Rebel Wisdom' or download episodes from our Podbean page: rebelwisdom.po...
We also have a Rebel Wisdom Discord discussion channel: / discord
![Nassim Taleb: How Things Gain from Disorder [Entire Talk]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/B2-QCv-hChY/mqdefault.jpg)
"I trust people to the level of their worst behaviour" .......... nice one 👍
I'm broadly in favour of what is known as Right Speech in Buddhism. My own version is not to say anything about anyone that I wouldn't feel comfortable to say with them present. The distinction between this and the proposed Rule Delta is that sometimes I may not judge it to be prudent to address an issue with someone, but I still need to find a way to process the contents of the relationship and my primary way of doing this is through talking with another. So long as we own our part of an interaction (judgments, assumptions, perceptions, triggers etc) I think it is fine to talk about someone without first having talked with them.
Thanks for more great thought provoking content, guys!
David, As an appreciative viewer in western Canada, I am trying to chart the trajectory of Rebel Wisdom and divine your ultimate goal. I am still undecided about whether or not to become a member. You’ve produced a series of excellent videos to bring the ideas of various thought leaders to a mass audience. My thanks. But I’m having difficulty embracing the practicality your apparent vision to teach people how to communicate effectively...Maybe I’m missing something. I’ll keep watching and learning.
Hi David. I too have followed from its inception, as I was following Jordan Peterson from November 2016 when the C16 bill controversy occured.
My understanding is an attempt to depolarise as best we can from the culture wars and from the tribal patterns that energise them, by fostering a community that wants to take personal agency, not just for how we conduct ourselves in the sociopolitical arena, but how we cultivate our minds, and heal our resentments. Unconscious resentment or repressed anger is the worrying underbelly of this conflict, so it's my feeling that this service is ultimately intended to make a positive contribution to the maturation of our vulnerable liberal democracies.
I three am an appreciative Canadian viewer (Central/Ontario) so that's a good thing. I am undecided for reasons I do not wish to articulate. I mean it is really back and forth (an exhausting back and forth) it is very complicated. I am also a narrative junkie/addict in a way which adds to the complexity/the back and forth. Having interactive conversations and tools to aid in conversation, and if that includes an interactive white board, that is attractive.
Ryan Hauck thank-you for sharing your thoughts. I have been a professional communicator of one kind or another for 50 years. I appreciate Rebel Wisdom’s idealism. But I have never seen the broadcast of high level abstractions improve interpersonal communications. A number of Rebel Wisdom’s theorists are virtually incomprehensible to the average person and that is not because the average person is stupid. They are just intolerant of pretentious people who use words and concepts that are meaningless to them. They have no trouble understanding Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, and other brilliant members of the IDW. The average person will listen to them for hours and can understand what they are saying. My disappointment with Rebel Wisdom is their fascination with disseminating utopian ideas that have little chance of being widely understood or practiced. I decided not to become a member of Rebel Wisdom after the last interview with Rafia who was once a follower of OSHO, a discredited phoney who escaped justice. I found David’s devotion to Rafia both revealing and more than a little disturbing.
@@garycleave9565 thanks for these comments. It is helpful to see your thoughts here and their development. I agree with your assessment about the hard reach toward utopian ideals and the nearly incomprehensible brillance of the speakers. Both inspiring and overwhelming.
There is a lot of conversation about weaponization, and the utopian urge is probably amomg the most weaponised impulse in history. It has been coming to mind in the form of Lao Tse's ideas of non-interference being better than imposing rules over the people. And speaking of Rajneesh and his followers, and gurus and disciples in general -- even the best teachings are heard in many different ways, generally according to the principle of what people wanted to hear in the first place.
David, Alex... I like this 10-minute format. Regarding Rule Delta: I think it's better than standard gossip, but also that it could be rendered superfluous by... let's call it "Rule X: Don't be a judgmental asshole." :) In other words, gossip is only a problem when it's negative, so just don't take your own negative judgments about others seriously. You can use each judgmental perception as a cue to search for a more generous, compassionate perception of the other person. Then, when you "gossip," it'll be less like "James is being a total asshole," and more like "James hasn't been keeping his agreements with me, and I think he may be needing our support."
"We never get angry for the reasons we think we do." So, when you look at yourself and say "I just got pear shaped" or "I just lost my sh*t" then follow-up with "I wonder what that was all about?" It might have been a trigger for something deeper than you know, and you're just venting steam. Identify that habit energy (familiar rage) and relinquish your greivences. Then return to love, 'doing unto others as you would have done to you.'
Love this Style - Keep doing what your Doing!
Look Forward to see you grow in Leaps & Bounds this Decade! It’s going to be a Crucial one for you guys and the IDW - still would love to see an Integral Conversation between Ken & Jordan Peterson, housed by Rebel Wisdom! This has to happen! :)
Cheers,
- James.
I've been employing rule delta myself for a while.
There are definite limitations to it, but it has improved my relationships.
The conversation between Paul Vanderclay and James Lindsay is ringing for me... this topic is known as Total Depravity theology... so glad you guys are doing this... I am managing a warming center in rural AZ eating at Denny's at 3:30 am and all of this is relevant to my interests.
If you guys got yval Noah hararri on it'd be epic
if you want healthy information ....you have to know your self first...like self mastery....master the things that you can do...to help others...and....how can you help others if you have your own problem to solved
The Second Coming
BY WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Drive A Good Man Bad thanks - a reminder that these forces are bigger than any of us , perhaps than all of us put together, whatever rules we make or follow
Ad says "and there's your depression."
All ads lie
Whenever you make a generalization you are talking about everyone. For example, when you say, "When we are not having to keep track of who know something, and who knows something else, and which story we've told to this person and if we are allowed to share it with this person. That is a huge weight of story lines for us to keep in our minds at all times, and it is really exhausting."
So while I largely share your sentiment here, being honest would include the notion that this "we" you keep using is a form of talking for and about me. Correct?
I am very much with you when you suggest that talking about inter-subjectivity and taking coming to a place of mutual respect through taking that process seriously is a key element of getting along with other humans. However, this term "we" is not a term that forwards that goal. It _presumes_ the outcome of the discussion, and so is directly antithetical to it.
Great topic! Hopefully we can keep it going.
Compare with: "When I am not having to keep track of who knows something, and who knows something else, and which story I've told to this person and if I am allowed to share it with this person. That is a huge weight of story lines for me to keep in my mind at all times, and it is really exhausting. Do you find this true of yourself also?"
This is great
--
Weirdly, I thought rule delta was going to be - “if you feel defensive, feel curious about that defensiveness”
It felt like “individual coherence”
@john verveake
The vertical to Johns horizontal collective wisdom.
Rule omega
--
But as rule delta is taken, maybe it’s rule w or v or
--
Whatever, if rule omega is horizontal? Is there the need for a vertical rule too?
--
In other words talk is cheap and listening and hearing can be two very different things
How it seems the run delta idea (new term to me, age old idea) people have become wise to it, that is weaponized.
Weaponized in one way by people making themselves unreachable, physically or systematically avoiding and not allowing discussion. There are loads of scientists people would like to question but they are not accessible. If people were fully honest, not prone to mud slinging, we may not need that design because it works sometimes and it does not.
Weaponized in another way, by just convincing people, emotionally manipulating them into thinking that the person or people they need to speak to are unreachable through traditional means, so we must rebel and have war ...
Thanks.
"Emotions are not instructions." Absolutely. In fact, they are responses to circumstances and triggers. The point of examining your own emotions is to determine what the triggers are. Not so you can get others to give you trigger warnings, but so that you can hack your own system, if those emotions and the actions they spur in you are not getting you where you want to be. Edit the system to change the emotional response, reduce it, or even eliminate it.
But, of course, if the action that emotional response causes in you is getting you where you need to be, and the world is giving you what you want, then don't mess with it.
You are talkin' my language.
I have a hard time making friends because so often groups of people who make good sense to me want to talk shit about other groups and this "pollutes the information ecology" as well as wrecks the possibility of empowering the folks who are at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy to rise up to become something that is not just a bigger/better/stronger/faster predator - something Daniel mentioned in his interview but used different words and I don't remember the time stamp.
7:20
7:38 ...then came this.
I've been a Peer Support Specialist for folks with Mental Illness and what you just said here is a problem. In fact, naming any "group" is going to be a problem because those who are the exceptions will not get the validation they deserve and they will have no way to develop their identity within the group you named nor strengthen the intersection between their group and yours. I've been doing alot of work on this over the last 2 years. So, instead of this, it may be more helpful to point out the forces that act upon individual people which motivate/reward the gaming/weaponizing behavior you're talking about. There will be forces arising from within as well as without. This will explain both the grouping as well as the exceptions. More explanatory power is better. That's part of "synthesis". This has alot to do with why Daniel's and Jordan's talks are so long-winded. It's quicker to just name a group. But it's destructive and doesn't solve the problems we're trying to solve.
See what I'm saying?
Your list of "practices" here is part of the old model of enclose and monetize. Even if it's "free", it's not really free if people have to take time off work, travel far, stay in a hotel, dine out, etc. And lets not forget they are paying you and your teachers "100% of their attention" - the most sought after currency of this Age. People are familiar with it and all the costs and risks have been worked out and externalized, but at the end of the day, all they have are behaviors they can do while sitting on their asses. If you have Teachers who expect to be paid, I'm going to guess that this event will not be free. So, you're still rewarding behavior that Pollutes every single ecology we can even name.
My observation is not going to prevent this from happening.
But maybe you can add another event or "practice" to it that does not further pollute these ecologies and which internalizes some of the costs and risks. I left a hint about this in my first paragraph:
_"empowering the folks who are at the bottom of the socio-economic heirarchy to rise up to become something that is not just a bigger/better/stronger/faster predator "_
Google: *Ron Finley*
This is not your Grandfather's Activism...
Off to listen to TWOS-M II...
I think you may be overcomplicating something that is essentially simply. It used to be called "common sense". That said, I accept that common sense is conspicuous by its absence these days
I am uninterested in "influencing" people, mostly because I honestly have no idea if we are collectively traveling down a bowel toward a sphincter positioned over a toilet, or a birth canal heading for Mother's milk. I mean, these channels are adjacent after all. Is it all shit, or is it new life in the making? I cannot say. And my beliefs seem irrelevant to the larger scale for this reason. Not that the two are exclusive of each other either! Childbirth and shit go together, and the gut biome of a newborn is nonexistent until they leave the sterile womb and make contact with Ma's shit that was pushed out along with the baby.
As for Rule Delta. I had an epiphany about gossip when I realised that people will never stop talking about one another. So what can be done with that? It seems clear that humans are reactionary, and that if you predict someone's bad behavior, or impute bad reasons for their behavior consistently, you are possibly creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean, if people already believe you are a bad actor when you aren't, and this understandably makes you angry? The result may be intentional confirmation and escalation of bad behavior just out of resentment. Why not? What do you owe to people who think badly of you?
But the epiphany was that this can be applied in the opposite direction as well. If you see the best in someone, and look for the best possible explanations and motivations for their behavior? Even if you get it wrong by giving them too much credit, the effect may well be another self-fulfilling prophecy. They may want to try to become the better person you see in them.
In short, people may just as well hopefully rise to our highest expectations even more readily than they will resentfully fall to our worst expectations. Such a thing can be redemptive. Now imagine this principle at work in the domain of gossip, or talking about others who are absent. The same dynamic, the knowledge that people are talking, is often quite obvious in a group, when gossip is the obvious explanation for shifts in interactive behavior among the group. So the effect of our predictions and our general feeling about someone is amplified by the group dynamic in both the positive and the negative directions.
Then I saw this on a Dr. Bronner's label (!): "So when your fellow man you measure, take him at his best. With this lever, raise him higher, overlook the rest." Very powerful principle that did in fact immediately change the entire tenor of some of my closest relationships! So it is not just a hypothesis, but a theory for me personally.
The caveat: I doubt this works out well for cluster B situations. But calling someone a narcissist when you actually just dislike them or their type, is not going to go well for anyone.
Longest comment ever, sorry, but I posted this a while back on Thinkspot with links to your videos and I will soon write something else with links to this video and I will disagree with you, in a positive way, because I dine on minds and I want your best thoughts. 2020 gonna be great!
The Gentle Art of Shut The Fuck Up
The first rule of The Gentle Art of Shut The Fuck Up is you don't talk about Shut The Fuck Up. It would just sound dumb to tell someone that you are really listening to them, but this has been a topic of conversation here for months so it gets in nugley lounge as real conversation from real people.
The second rule is that you listen to yourself to hear how you sound when you open your mouth. And the endless chatter from your brain would drive you insane if you didn't mostly ignore it.
There is no going back from 'consciousness of consciousness'. Call it meditation if you will, just get tired of your own prattle and do something about it.
The third rule is listening to others. Proper forensic listening like you are some kind of detective. Rule one really comes into play here. Don't give the game away. You are now a 'listening ninja' so when someone lets something slip, or, more likely, slips something into the conversation, pocket it quietly and don't be waving it around.
This insight into the real lives of the people around you will be disturbing, but there's no stopping you playing the old games if you want, for fun, because it is fun, and easy. Grow at your own pace.
Rule four will keep you sane in this relentless reality. Get yourself a philosophy or two. Study stuff and smarten the fuck up. When your philosophy gets tired, trade up.
Most people on Jordan Peterson's Thinkspot are probably already at this level and looking to level up, so it's time we talked.
Rule five is to be a bit careful who you talk to. Don't have a point to prove, just a need for personal improvement. Dine on the minds of others. Maybe even consider setting up an argument where you hope to be corrected, just for the exercise. Be prepared to walk away from those playing basic games, unless their personal growth is your problem. Understand Game B and Rule Omega.
Rule six is where I'm at, and I include this because Gary and I were discussing it here the other day and his advice was 'walk away'. Rule six could be walking away, the ultimate expression of The Gentle Art of Shut The Fuck Up.
Or not.
This is not a philosophy of disengagement but of deepening understanding of the human condition and development of empathy. It can be uncomfortable, like an intellectual nudist colony, and is certainly not for everyone.
Remember that saying "it is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt", but be a little bit brave, for your own benefit and that of others. Listen. Think. Share. Listen some more.
Then, maybe, one day, just walk away. Or at least take a holiday.
And later I posted something about Rule Seven based on WOS2, where you come back and sit quietly until spoken through.
#notacult
I'm not sure how you could combat something as innate and honest as a laugh. Taking glee in someone being less than you is the definition of the superiority theory of comedy. The enjoyment of sharing that (i.e. gossip) can't be helped. The feeling is as unintentional as a hiccup. Feeling happy about seeming better isn't exactly the same as wishing bad on others. Judging ourselves against others will not stop until we are all perfect.
Please. Sit on your hands; Words do not require gesticulatory company. Please. Stop 'izing' and 'inging' poor, innocent nouns. Our language has perfectly serviceable verbs,
It's natural to get though?
I would currently grade the appropriateness of their hand-gestures a B--
So how do you grade the Main Stream Media today in their use of Right of Reply. Especially when covering Trump. If you don't acknowledge what's happening as completely broken, then you have NO CLUE as to what "Right of Reply" means. Also let me sum it up for you. Tell the Truth. (PERIOD). All the other shit is gibberish.
Wow...11 minutes to say gossiping is bad!
"Gossiping is bad" is an extremely low resolution version of what was said. So low in fact, as to be completely wrong. They actually discuss how gossiping is a good thing when done properly.
I completely see what you mean and I agree with your conclusion.
The whole conversation was so 'low resolution' that it included superfluous hot air about scenarios which fall into the category of common sense and not really worth mentioning, unless you're someone who can't work it out for themselves, in which case, it's high resolution
thescooble - yeah, sometimes I start to wonder if I am going funny in the head or maybe I am getting to become a cantankerous old woman who expects more meaning and less hot air especially from intellectuals and more intelligible presentations (and less empty monologues) from politicians...... yes, I know I am a relic from a different era! :o)
@@scooble Yes, and there is a kind of mental hyper-busyness to all of the young "thinking" crowd today, that even tuning into them is exhausting by the time 5 minutes are up.