VIOLENCE in the OLD TESTAMENT - Examining Biblical Values with Dr. John J. Collins
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- čas přidán 19. 07. 2024
- There is a great deal of violence in the Old Testament, particularly commanded by God himself:
"...violence against rival claimants of the land is not only legitimate but mandatory. The fact that the conquest is not historical does not lessen the moral problem. The problem is not that it happened but that it was believed to have been commanded and condoned on divine authority." Dr. John J. Collins, What are Biblical Values? What the Bible Says on Key Ethical Issues (Yale University Press, 2019) 149.
It is very easy to see that many of the commands and laws in the Old Testament fall far short of what we would consider to be morally acceptable in today's society. Slavery, genocide, treatment of women... we cringe at many of the passages that concern such issues in the Hebrew Bible. How should we think about these issues and the book that contains them? Should the Bible be an authoritative text for the 21st century? If so, in what way?
Join us as we discuss these issues with Dr. John J. Collins, Holmes Professor of Old Testament Criticism and Interpretation at Yale Divinity School. In his new book, Dr. Collins has provided not only sound exegetical insights into a variety of difficult and controversial passages in both the Old and New Testaments, but he has also formulated an interpretative model for understanding these texts, both in their original and modern contexts.
Purchase his new book here! tinyurl.com/y9g6xnoz
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Did the Old Testament Endorse Slavery?
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For general information and sources relating to the Ancient Near East, we recommend these websites:
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Its a shame this only has 2.6k views and popular apologetic channels get many more views on their trash propoganda!
Keep up the good work this is a great listen.
I concur, this is a bit of a cultural bummer....(see the traffic on Frank Turek's Cross Examined CZcams channel)
Kristoff Taylovoski I have to regretfully admit that I was once one of those people who would watch Frank Turek in my spare time and just revel in how smart I thought he was. Bit embarrassing I must say once I realized how disingenuous he is.
Apologetics is the science of spin. Apologists specialise in presenting the most implausible explanations ever uttered by human tongue. Ravi Zacherias could produce a word salad that reminded me of a good oorator performing, but then when you examined what he was saying for substance, he said nothing that added any light to Bible passages. None of the apologist that I have heard is at all impressive for me.
I might have to stop watching the Digital Hammurabi channel...
the rate at which I am learning stuff from doing so, is threatening to make me run out of brain-space soon.
This guy actually answers the questions!!
This was an interesting video. Drs. John and Josh are both so generous with their knowledge. I enjoy learning from both of you. Thank you for sharing this.
One of your best guest yet, and you haven't served up any lemons. Props to you and Dr. John J. Collins.
I've watched a previous interview with Dr Collins and he's so easy to listen to
It's so rewarding to see a critical mind in action such as John Collins. I'm currently reading one of his books "The Bible after Babel" and it's a real pleasure to see Collins dissecting the arguments of both fundamentalists and post-modernists.
@Digital Hammurabi, you've surely made those 56 minutes count. Keep up the good work!
Luke 1:41 & 44 are quite clear that a baby in the womb is considered to be alive:
"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."
"For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy."
But there are explicit condemnations of abortion in 1st and 2nd century Christian texts like the Didache and the Apocalypse of Peter.
Best channel on CZcams for understanding and interpretating the bible
Also Josh. I haven't seen you much on YT lately. Hope all is well matey. You and Megan do a great job. You should be proud of the channel you've built.
I could listen to Josh (or Megan) talk with Dr. Collins and/or Dr. Baden all day… I know it’d probably be difficult but a conversation with the two of them together (Collins & Baden being close friends it seems) would be, perhaps.. the greatest conversation in the history of the cosmos (a little hyperbole 😉).
I've contacted Dr Collins twice, and he promptly responded to my email. Very gracious.
Thank you for bringing these discussions into the public sphere.
I missed this. To hear Dr. Collins is such a delight! More. please.
I've always thought that the thing about hyperbole in the bible, is that it doesn't tell you how many they killed - it tells you how many they wanted to kill.
Close. It tells you how many people the author of whichever particular version of the whichever particular massacre myth you're looking at wanted his king to believe had been killed hundreds of years prior. Royal advisors would conveniently discover a manuscript when they wanted to scare whomever was on the throne into adopting their religious views and forcing them on his subjects. E.g., by pretending their ancestors had slaughtered the Canaanites and destroyed their idols, because Yahweh hated polytheism THAT MUCH and told them to do it, instead of the truth which was that their ancestors had BEEN the Canaanites, who had destroyed their own idols, because a human king told them to do it. The real history wasn't persuasive enough.
@@compulsiverambler1352
and it never hurts to remind the populace of their glorious past.
Great Questions and a Great Interview !!!
Thank you for posting. It was a treat to listen to 😊
Key point; "until they have the power...." It's not a lack of desire or intention to violence, it's the lack of the power to carry it out that restrains them. Religion and high elevated moral sense it is not.
Love Dr John J Collins and have all his books (I think) and highly recommend the one he mentioned by Bruce Lincoln, which is titled, "Holy Terrors (Second Edition)."
Also the Yale Divinity School youtube channel he is on is very informative.
If you are new to Dr Josh and Digital Hammurabi and are here to watch Dr Collins you will want to check his channel as well.
Lots of scholarly info between the two of them and their works.
Thanks for the recs!
Really enjoyed your discussion, very informative, thank you both good Sirs.
I bought your book on slavery, Josh, I'm probably going to do a video on slavery with a short review or recommendation of it. I have several books on slavery I bought, concerning several periods (Silk Roads, middle age Christianity and Islam, Renaissance, Early Modern, Abolitionism).
"a video on slavery with a short review or recommendation of it"? Hopefully not! ;o)
@@johaquila it's like trading football players! Isn't it? Hahaha XD
Excellent, I've not seen Doctor Josh for ages, so I'm glad this popped up, even though it's an old one.
{:o:O:}
Thank you very for this interview!
Another top quality contributor
I was raised Lutheran. In Sunday school we were only told the nice stories in the Bible. Sunday school children were given the Good News Bible which was just the NT. When I became an adult, I read the OT, which our pastor hardly ever referred to in his sermons. Now I know why. The atrocities in the OT ordered/permitted by god are horrendous. How anyone can say the bible is a good instruction book for life is either so indoctrinated, so fearful or so lacking in reason that they will never admit the truth-- that it is full of bullshit.
One of the best scholars john Collins. Another excellent scholars josh and Meghan
I just watched a critique by 'Big Joel', of a Prager U video in which the Prager propagandist tried to assert that "social justice" was not real (God given) justice - so it's a pleasant change to hear two real academics talk so eloquently on the subject without appearing to even suspect that they might not be the same thing.
This was an excellent interview. I learned a lot and I'm definitely going to be checking into Dr. Collins' books.
Excellent discussion! Absolutely worth my subscription...
Great interview. Josh, you're sounding good and looking sharp.
Fab Dr Josh! Thanks.
Man Josh, this guy is awesome. 👍
Great interview, thanks!
Thank you.
This is a very interesting point, the passages for forebearance in the gospels are in the context or and rely upon the promise of future divine retribution and violence. They cannot be taken out of context as they often are at least as the text is presented now. Perhaps, although I don't believe this is the case, the forebearance is taught be the historical Jesus and the context of divine retribution was added later to make the forebearance more palatable to the church. Jesus was more apocalyptic than many commentators and apologists give him credit and the modern evengelicalism has taken up this apocalyptic call to arms. "Tolerance is a very unapocalyptic virture"!
"As you would probably be aware, I'm Irish"
😄
Thank you. I hadn't a clue.
This is such a great interview! We need so much more of this!
"Noooo, there isn't any violence in the Bible, Gaawd is Love!!!" :D
IS NOT THAT THE WAY JOHN WAYNE PRONOUNCED IT IN THE MOTION PICTURE MOVIE "THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD" DIRECTED BY GEORGE STEVENS STARRING MAX VON SYDOW ?
@@harryhagman6063 Don't know man, haven't seen it 😂
Pump up the volume
Collins is mesmerizing.
I'd like to know what you mean about Hebrews 6:4-6. I'm also a rescue from fundamental Christianity (was agnostic for a long time but am now converting to Reform Judaism and delving into these topics again!). It seems straightforward to me, so clearly I'm missing something...
Old Arabic was first spoken somewhere from the 1st to 4th Century CE, so after the entire OT had been written. The questioner may be confused because Arabic and Ancient Hebrew are Semitic languages, so would have many word roots in common.
“Semitic languages: an international handbook / edited by Stefan Weninger” cited in
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic?wprov=sfti1
Iyovv speaks of the liberation and peace of death; he says; the prisoner is free of the oppressor, the slave is freed from their master, they lie together in the dirt.
This verse shows that they absolutely knew that slavery was a life prison and equivalent to a punishment
To say they didn't know it was wrong, do you think any of those projects would have voluntarily went into permanent slavery
Great interview! Dr. John Collis knows so much! I wonder what his christianity looks like. I saw a video in which he mentions he's a catholic. Does anyone know how he reconcile christianity with his views of Jesus as a apocalyptic preacher and the problemas such as the dating of the book of Daniel? Any thoughts, Dr. Josh? Once again, great interview! Thanks.
Could you please send me the link of that video?
Thank you, very interesting and informative presentation.
I cannot help but wonder what the world would have been like if Maat had not been suppressed by the jealous monotheistic idol that has caused so much moral confusion with its narratives.
It has been a disgrace with catastrophic practical consequences for humankind.
Dr Collins, was Exodus originally written without vowels? If so, aren’t Suf and Sof equally valid interpretations of “Sf”? And is it possible that both meanings (reed and destruction/end) were intended? It seems the Torah names are replete with double meanings.
Also, did reeds symbolize death? I read that In Egypt, at least in the 3rd millennium BCE, the afterlife was known as the field of reeds.
Whether that symbolism also applies to a 6th C BCE book from Palestine such as Exodus, I don’t know.
If so, the Exodus would be the Hebrews passing through the waters of death and destruction to form the nation of Israel, which seems consistent with Ancient Middle East creationism
As a protestant Scot I always considered Rev Ian Paisley as no more than a rabble rouser. If he wasn't so dangerous he would have been comical.
Let us compare the 20th century violence and the bronze age and the times WW2 and WW1
Digital Hammurabi - video idea
How do personal names and place names enhance the biblical narrative?
For examples, many of the patriarchs’ names are indicative of their roles. Or. an NT example, if the root meaning of Mary (Miriam) is Rebellion and Jesus is Savior, then the (supposed) savior was born from rebellion, a message consistent with Jewish messianic beliefs (political savior in this case)
Dr. J got that Biff corona haircut going on!
"The only thing to do with terrorists is to talk with them.." Does that include jihadists? The proxies of fanatic regimes? The soldiers of the modern czar? I think not.
51:50 Apparently seminaries are involved in mergers and acquisitions.
They even said that the father told them they could own their own neighbors or fellow Israelites.. but say that they couldn't charge fellow israelistes interest on loans 😳 I really think that the father might have started out trying to speak through honest prophets, but it does appear that true prophets came along and warned against prophets in babylonian exile and said they were liars or false. The bible talks about alot if false prophets, I wonder if he allowed lies next to truth to allow people to make the choice if they would view the creator in a good manner or in a bad one. Bit even christ preached about the lying pens of the scribes and said all who came before him were liars and thieves. He also said that none had seen the father or heard his voice at any time, and he would speak saying "YOUR law says this and that, but I TELL YOU this.." or "YOU have heard it said you are to do this or that, But I TELL YOU this.." he never called the law his law or his fathers law, or never said "our law" I believe he probably was the son of the father, but I'm not sure that he was God, and the father being impossible to wrap a finite mind around, I think it's possible that he could have sent a part of himself/spirit to enter into christ, and just because christ dies on the cross, doesnt mean God died because the father is spirit, and anything is possible for him/it, and it would not be impossible for the father of ALL creation to extend a part of himself into christ while still residing in heaven and still being outside of space and time. I do believe christ came to reveal a very important message, bit I believe his teachings were perverted, chopped up, and distorted in order to push a certain theological bias and view. I feel lile there was a massive theological battle going on in ancient times and the version that won out is the version we have now. Just like I have a sneaking suspicion that him dying for sins does not mean that the father had him killed, I think the message he brought was the teachings that were supposed to bring us to the remission of sin, and I believed he was killed for sharing this message, was killed because of the sins of the world and maybe not for the sin of the world. I'm seeking the true teachings of christ that seem to be the most applicable to life and spiritually grounding.
Was there a reason the interviewer was using the term equity rather than equality?
Leftist
The violent rhetoric in religious texts is why I became a devout atheist.
Some of the most horrific violence on massive scale has been committed by atheists.
Stalin, Mao for example.
I don’t see how Numbers 5:21 “when Yahweh makes your thigh rot and your belly swell”** is not glorifying vengeful abortion, unless the swelling belly is an immediate re-impregnation.
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** the cohen’s words are presented as if he will be speaking the truth and passing on a lesson from Yahweh
Very good video, I will say that growing up evangelical most of them dont say its hyperbolic but rather the Cananites deserved it because they were so wicked or even had corrupted DNA that needed to be eliminated. They also believe that it happened just as the Bible says.
Cognitive dissonance at its best.
Who requires killing, human sacrifice, blood sacrifice, ? the enemy, who did the Messiah say was the king of the world? the enemy, who did Adam give over his authority to at the garden during the fall?, the enemy, who requires the sacrifice of the firstborn has in Abraham sacrificing his son,? the enemy, God the Creator provided the ram so the boy was saved, John 10:10 the enemy comes to steal kill and destroy, I G have come to give you life and life more abundantly, writers of the Old testament didn't have a revelation of the enemy therefore they thought everything was given and taken by a puppet string master, God had no authority on Earth as it was given away by Adam, as in job when the Creator told the enemy you have charge over job, as it was given to him by Adam and then only returned after the Messiah reinstated it, but still has to be done through man as the keys to the kingdom are co-owned
I don't like the fact that dr.Collins is kind a biased
When mentioned torah's atrocities he makes it sound ok,but keep pointing to my ancestors the Assyrian as not being humane when not allowing abortion ‼️
Like that time Trump talked all of his followers into insurrection…
Use of hyperbole
Not so sure, i have heard that the Israeli government does alot to hide any canaanite archeology... so for me to hear archeology as evidence is hard. He sounds kinda very apologist... I could be wrong.
What's the history of the world going to mean to you when you find out Jesus is the reincarnation of Adam. We're about to resolve the story of Eden. Who's belly do you go on? Goodbye!