I have replaced the dumbbell setup on my massey Ferguson 1200 with a similar setup, however I was advised that it still requires some sort of damper to absorb the chatter from the motor. To provide this I used a dampene and drive shaft r from the 7000 series. John Deere
The original parts had a heavy shaft with 8 rubber dampeners to drive that tractor, replaced those rubbers once in 6-7000 hrs, had an old 1500 that had a 871 jimmy in it with a dodge coupler in it that worked well, the old tractor didn’t take the 100 extra horses very well, ran good when running, hear it 6-7 miles away so you knew when it was running
While we are on the subjects of torque and vibrations, you might just want to inspect the motor mounts too. Once the rubber goes bad in those expect cracks. The 3208 is just a torque queen. We got in the habit of inspecting them after a each day of use. Saves the clutch.
We had a new 1155 nice tractor but a little light in the frontend for plowing lots of power.Went to the 1805 had numerous tyranny overheating problems never did get it figured out , then went to the 4800 ,wow massey got it right with the 903 Cummins what a nice tractor to work with !
Farmer next to us had an 1805 and a 4840 Massey. The 4840 had a great sound and was quiet a bit better Tractor, with some nice upgrades. Better cab, I think a partial power shift. They eventually became the Agco Star tractor in the late 90’s.
Needs to be stronger we replaced some 3208 cat's with 640 turbo Perkins and used that type of drive and it worked fine, had to extend the frame to make the engine fit but made some damn good tractors
My guess from a small amount of experience with casting, is that the one that broke is ductile iron, and the donated part is a forged piece judging by the look of it. Ductile has its place but also has its limitations
We made the same thing for our 1805 back in the 90’s. I can’t remember what size u-joints it had. We also got rid of the tractor shortly after that repair. We traded it in on a 2870 case, that was a decent upgrade. The 2870 was slow on the road, but pulled like a mule.
I definitely Think it's a bad part, two points 1) The break does not look typical of a high stress twisted break. I would expect to see some evidence of a twisting motion in the break. 2) A 1410 series joint is more than adequate, even a 1350 is capable of the torque generated at the flywheel. Keep in mind most drivelines endure the torque multiplication of the transmission, which this application does not have. I think poor quality parts are the likely culprit. I only see one flaw in the design, U-joints are meant to couple offset, but parallel input/output. This application appears to aligned, which would cause the u-joints to wear in one location, since they would not rotate, or rotate very little. I have a dana driveshaft manual, if you'd like a copy, let me know. Good luck with the dana, I think it's nice solution!
Thanks! This setup with the new stub shaft has been working for a season without any problems. The torque rating on the 1410 parts was well above and beyond what the 3208 offers so I thought they would be a good match for it.
I think your design is great. Could be a faulty part but I think size and weight of the connection is a littlesmall for the power it will have to transfer when under full load. Compare shaft size to what you would see in some other tractors. Go as strong as you can with replacement parts. Once it matches up with remaining components you should be good to go. Enjoy your channel. I'm about to start a restore of a MF 1100D.
Thank you! I thought the u-joints would have been the weak spot on my setup, I did not expect to see the solid shaft snap like that. I think if I go with the 1550 spicer series parts it’ll take anything I throw it’s way
I just came across your video. In years gone by I worked on these tractors lots. My thought is you need some kind of way to dampen the vibrations. The rubber bushings worked and they wore out because of the job they were doing. If you don’t have a way to absorb the vibrations something will break. If you increase the strength of your shaft it’ll move the breaking point somewhere else like possibly the crankshaft. If it were me I’d go back to original if possible. Good luck
I have redesigned that shaft slightly, and it worked perfectly for a year now. I will do another video on it in the near future. I understand the rubber bushings and their purpose, but I’ve not had any trouble without them as of yet. Not that it won’t happen again, but Rome wasn’t built in a day 😉
Awesome upload once again. Not very nice not to honor warrenty. What a huge tractor it is. I got diesel in the sump today. Have a old old ebro super 55. Im trying to get back on my feet and plant 1000 almond trees next months.
I own a bunch of these tractors, and I would love to see something other than that big rubber mounted dumbbell. I visited this years ago and called a bunch of heavy duty driveline shops, they told me there’s no way to make a shaft work in there between two flywheels. It will always break eventually if it’s not rubber mounted. Apparently my dad tried it too and it didn’t work, I’ve seen one photo of one but the bolts were all welded and not sure if it worked. Look forward to see if you get a better solution in there between those heavy flywheels
Try using a dampener and shaft from a 7000 series John Deere. I did this in my massey Ferguson 1200. Had to machine the flywheel to fit the damper, but seems to work well
@@user-hh7lj7hx3k that’s a great idea, I actually pulled a shaft and rubber mount off a jd industrial pay loader I need to go see how similar it is to my jd 7800. I have a 1805 cummins swapped tractor with pumps mounted to the engine that would be the perfect candidate to try first.
My guess is brittle fracture due to lack of or improper heat treatment after forging or too high of carbon content in the base metal either of which or in combination can make the part brittle.
My 1505 did the same thing cheap parts cold start she was fine when shut off that night next day the temperature was 28 checked everything over and started old girl up all hell broke lose snapped the main shaft put Spicer in her was 350.00 6 years ago still going today.
@@jtsbarnngrill6873 You running duals on yours I running 32 inch tires thats on the ground singles it belonged to my grandfather and running a 1155 open station V8 under the hood with heavy centers on inside and duals
Can't say the Spicer will hold up for the long haul BUT its rolled shaft is significantly stronger and certainly should last longer than the original cast iron version.
Looks like brittle fracture as if it is all cast iron like you were saying. Probably wouldn't hurt to have a larger drive shaft, but either way the welded shaft should be made from significantly stronger material.
If I had a 11:35 Ferguson and when you picked up the hydraulics whatever you had behind it when you put it in the neutral position it would drop whatever it was you had to have it all the way back and it will stick and hold it up but like I said when you knock it nutrients drop it if you don't mind right back and tell me what you think
I also have a Turd Ferguson (Ha Ha) 1805 SN 002763 purchased last fall. I saw the idea for the splined shaft on NewAgtalk Forum. I have not changed my shaft yet, been watching you do yours. I wonder if you have taken the broken shaft and compared the size to the shaft going to the rear axle.
Make sure splined slip shafts have a vent. Your fractured male version did not... I'm assuming the female side did. Your new male was vented. Things a guy looks for when doing the stare and compare. Cast is one thing... forging is where the strength comes from provided the correct metallurgy was selected. I'd have to see some quality still photographs to draw any firm conclusions. Sure looks like stress concentrations at every single spline
@John Mitroff I think it is definitely a vibration coming from the engine, that shaft is more than big enough to handle that horsepower. I think you need a rubber coupling or flex plat between the flywheel and the yoke to absorb the vibration
It looked like you were one tooth out of phase on the shft hook up. That would put a lot of vibrational stress on the shaft. Don't know if that would contrubute to the problem. Spicer should be able to tell you what torque it is rated for.. Good luck.
I agree with Louis. Looks like it's a tooth or two off, even after you installed the repaired one. The yokes have to be in perfect alignment or they will destroy themselves.
Did you eliminate the rubber bushings on the transmission side , I’m assuming they are there to take the shock, I may be wrong but I thought they had some there at the bolts.
Yes, all the bushings are gone. I was copying a shaft on another tractor I saw on line and it didn’t have any on it. I may have to incorporate something to make it work better. 🤷🏻😉
Cold engine trying to come to life sputtering. Not constant torque on cheap made parts. Don't think cold hydraulics would do it,,belts should absorb that,correct?
I’m convinced it was just a junk part. I put the USA made shaft on after that and it hasn’t given me any problems since and that was almost 2 years ago now
Jt, from what ive seen with the newer John Deer tractors and Combines and how the farmer can't work on them because JD wont let the farmer download what ever to fix them. You've got one heck of a foot up because they said farmers are looking for older big horsepower tractors. And you have a nack for finding said tractors and fixing them. You just have to sell them. You could be the next Donald Trump of the Tractor World!!!
I have not had a single issue with the new one. I worked that tractor last spring, hard all fall and this summer chiseling wheat and it has worked perfectly
Hi - not sure if they are on your driveline or not, but at each end of these shafts is a kind of torsional damper assembly, that incoporates 4 rubber bushes, originally made by the Lord Company ( a US based Company but can't remember whereabouts) - unfortunately this Company is long since gone and I don't know the specification of the rubber they used so that you could get some replacements made, but my take on this is thar the existing rubber bushes are no doubt perished simply due to age and as a result, their effectiveness at damping out the intial start up torque is found to be wanting. The rubber is bonded to steel bushes but it would largely be a process of trial and error to find out which grade rubber would be most suitable for your particular application. Rubber strength is given by its 'shore' number - the higher the number the stronger the rubber is but potentially brittleness may occur. Best to consult with a rubber specialist more clued up on the finer points of rubber manufacture as I only know of the very basics.
@@jtsbarnngrill6873 that conical fracture appears in incomplete heat treatment of low carbon materials. Does the metal appear to have a flat crystalline or flaked surface or as it too mangled to tell?
@@jtsbarnngrill6873 probably a combination of inferior metal and poor heat treatment. Likely used an induction method and did not anneal it for stress relief after resulting in the cone shape
That has been a concern, although they are the same size as the original ones and grade 8’s. Definitely thought there would be “weaker” points than the “solid” shaft
Chinesium a so ,misser jay T ban n gwill me likie sell u yunk. U can tank your American business man fo moving company here . Ha ha . Nothing wrong with being honest, need more of it and some common sense here in America 🇺🇸
After reading all the comments, I can't find anything I disagree with. Bottom Line, poor quality parts from from a cheap@$$ manufacturer. Thank You Global Economy! I'll be Quiet now. 🤬💥...🇺🇲👍🚜
I have replaced the dumbbell setup on my massey Ferguson 1200 with a similar setup, however I was advised that it still requires some sort of damper to absorb the chatter from the motor. To provide this I used a dampene and drive shaft r from the 7000 series. John Deere
The original parts had a heavy shaft with 8 rubber dampeners to drive that tractor, replaced those rubbers once in 6-7000 hrs, had an old 1500 that had a 871 jimmy in it with a dodge coupler in it that worked well, the old tractor didn’t take the 100 extra horses very well, ran good when running, hear it 6-7 miles away so you knew when it was running
While we are on the subjects of torque and vibrations, you might just want to inspect the motor mounts too. Once the rubber goes bad in those expect cracks. The 3208 is just a torque queen. We got in the habit of inspecting them after a each day of use. Saves the clutch.
We had a new 1155 nice tractor but a little light in the frontend for plowing lots of power.Went to the 1805 had numerous tyranny overheating problems never did get it figured out , then went to the 4800 ,wow massey got it right with the 903 Cummins what a nice tractor to work with !
I wouldn’t mind finding one of those sometime!
@@jtsbarnngrill6873 We had 4800 rated at 225 I think but the was 4840 4880 and the big boy 4900 rated at 320 turboed and intercooled 903.
Farmer next to us had an 1805 and a 4840 Massey. The 4840 had a great sound and was quiet a bit better Tractor, with some nice upgrades. Better cab, I think a partial power shift. They eventually became the Agco Star tractor in the late 90’s.
I will give you credit you don't give up easy I hope you get it this time buddy
Needs to be stronger we replaced some 3208 cat's with 640 turbo Perkins and used that type of drive and it worked fine, had to extend the frame to make the engine fit but made some damn good tractors
My guess from a small amount of experience with casting, is that the one that broke is ductile iron, and the donated part is a forged piece judging by the look of it.
Ductile has its place but also has its limitations
You could be right on the money! Hopefully if a few more weeks I will be putting that new piece to the test
We made the same thing for our 1805 back in the 90’s. I can’t remember what size u-joints it had. We also got rid of the tractor shortly after that repair. We traded it in on a 2870 case, that was a decent upgrade. The 2870 was slow on the road, but pulled like a mule.
I definitely Think it's a bad part, two points 1) The break does not look typical of a high stress twisted break. I would expect to see some evidence of a twisting motion in the break. 2) A 1410 series joint is more than adequate, even a 1350 is capable of the torque generated at the flywheel. Keep in mind most drivelines endure the torque multiplication of the transmission, which this application does not have. I think poor quality parts are the likely culprit. I only see one flaw in the design, U-joints are meant to couple offset, but parallel input/output. This application appears to aligned, which would cause the u-joints to wear in one location, since they would not rotate, or rotate very little. I have a dana driveshaft manual, if you'd like a copy, let me know. Good luck with the dana, I think it's nice solution!
Thanks! This setup with the new stub shaft has been working for a season without any problems. The torque rating on the 1410 parts was well above and beyond what the 3208 offers so I thought they would be a good match for it.
Watched you put the second one in out of time, ask your buddies how to time it!
You need to make sure those u joins are in phase with one another! If not the vibrations will cause the Spicer to break also.
I think your design is great. Could be a faulty part but I think size and weight of the connection is a littlesmall for the power it will have to transfer when under full load. Compare shaft size to what you would see in some other tractors. Go as strong as you can with replacement parts. Once it matches up with remaining components you should be good to go. Enjoy your channel. I'm about to start a restore of a MF 1100D.
Thank you! I thought the u-joints would have been the weak spot on my setup, I did not expect to see the solid shaft snap like that. I think if I go with the 1550 spicer series parts it’ll take anything I throw it’s way
I just came across your video. In years gone by I worked on these tractors lots. My thought is you need some kind of way to dampen the vibrations. The rubber bushings worked and they wore out because of the job they were doing. If you don’t have a way to absorb the vibrations something will break. If you increase the strength of your shaft it’ll move the breaking point somewhere else like possibly the crankshaft. If it were me I’d go back to original if possible. Good luck
I have redesigned that shaft slightly, and it worked perfectly for a year now. I will do another video on it in the near future. I understand the rubber bushings and their purpose, but I’ve not had any trouble without them as of yet. Not that it won’t happen again, but Rome wasn’t built in a day 😉
Blame it on Fluffy for doing a substandard cat scan!
The real reason it broke is so you can do another good video!
Awesome upload once again.
Not very nice not to honor warrenty.
What a huge tractor it is.
I got diesel in the sump today.
Have a old old ebro super 55. Im trying to get back on my feet and plant 1000 almond trees next months.
thanks! that sounds like a big job ahead! Hopefully everything will go smooth for you 😉
I own a bunch of these tractors, and I would love to see something other than that big rubber mounted dumbbell. I visited this years ago and called a bunch of heavy duty driveline shops, they told me there’s no way to make a shaft work in there between two flywheels. It will always break eventually if it’s not rubber mounted. Apparently my dad tried it too and it didn’t work, I’ve seen one photo of one but the bolts were all welded and not sure if it worked. Look forward to see if you get a better solution in there between those heavy flywheels
Try using a dampener and shaft from a 7000 series John Deere.
I did this in my massey Ferguson 1200. Had to machine the flywheel to fit the damper, but seems to work well
@@user-hh7lj7hx3k that’s a great idea, I actually pulled a shaft and rubber mount off a jd industrial pay loader I need to go see how similar it is to my jd 7800.
I have a 1805 cummins swapped tractor with pumps mounted to the engine that would be the perfect candidate to try first.
My guess is brittle fracture due to lack of or improper heat treatment after forging or too high of carbon content in the base metal either of which or in combination can make the part brittle.
Momma said,they would be those days
My 1505 did the same thing cheap parts cold start she was fine when shut off that night next day the temperature was 28 checked everything over and started old girl up all hell broke lose snapped the main shaft put Spicer in her was 350.00 6 years ago still going today.
Right on! The spicer I replaced that junk with is still pulling strong
@@jtsbarnngrill6873 You running duals on yours I running 32 inch tires thats on the ground singles it belonged to my grandfather and running a 1155 open station V8 under the hood with heavy centers on inside and duals
Can't say the Spicer will hold up for the long haul BUT its rolled shaft is significantly stronger and certainly should last longer than the original cast iron version.
Too damn much power dude
Hard to see in the pics, but it looks like porosity in the material causing the weakness in your shaft.
Looks like brittle fracture as if it is all cast iron like you were saying. Probably wouldn't hurt to have a larger drive shaft, but either way the welded shaft should be made from significantly stronger material.
If I had a 11:35 Ferguson and when you picked up the hydraulics whatever you had behind it when you put it in the neutral position it would drop whatever it was you had to have it all the way back and it will stick and hold it up but like I said when you knock it nutrients drop it if you don't mind right back and tell me what you think
Interesting👌. Good luck
I also have a Turd Ferguson (Ha Ha) 1805 SN 002763 purchased last fall. I saw the idea for the splined shaft on NewAgtalk Forum. I have not changed my shaft yet, been watching you do yours. I wonder if you have taken the broken shaft and compared the size to the shaft going to the rear axle.
Out of time, yokes are inline with each other
Make sure splined slip shafts have a vent. Your fractured male version did not... I'm assuming the female side did. Your new male was vented. Things a guy looks for when doing the stare and compare. Cast is one thing... forging is where the strength comes from provided the correct metallurgy was selected. I'd have to see some quality still photographs to draw any firm conclusions. Sure looks like stress concentrations at every single spline
Thinking if it happens again you might need a rubber coupling at the flywheel to take out the tortional vibration
I did a little research on this last night, that may be a good way to go. Thank you!
@John Mitroff I think it is definitely a vibration coming from the engine, that shaft is more than big enough to handle that horsepower. I think you need a rubber coupling or flex plat between the flywheel and the yoke to absorb the vibration
I think that's a Grand plan
The rubber will take out the shock that's what all the experts say
It looked like you were one tooth out of phase on the shft hook up. That would put a lot of vibrational stress on the shaft. Don't know if that would contrubute to the problem. Spicer should be able to tell you what torque it is rated for.. Good luck.
I agree with Louis. Looks like it's a tooth or two off, even after you installed the repaired one. The yokes have to be in perfect alignment or they will destroy themselves.
Especially when they are so short.
Take it to town, they’ll build one
That hub splits ahead of the belts, u can put a clutch in that tractor in a hour and a half
I have a truck driveshaft on my 1805 beleive it has 1410 ujoints. It works pretty good
These are 1410’s on this shaft too. It’s been working good for nearly a year now, sure I just had a faulty stub shaft and that’s why it broke
Rubber coupling and plates are design to slapped together the shafts back together, any way to post a pic?
Did you eliminate the rubber bushings on the transmission side , I’m assuming they are there to take the shock, I may be wrong but I thought they had some there at the bolts.
Yes, all the bushings are gone. I was copying a shaft on another tractor I saw on line and it didn’t have any on it. I may have to incorporate something to make it work better. 🤷🏻😉
Cold engine trying to come to life sputtering. Not constant torque on cheap made parts. Don't think cold hydraulics would do it,,belts should absorb that,correct?
I’m convinced it was just a junk part. I put the USA made shaft on after that and it hasn’t given me any problems since and that was almost 2 years ago now
@jtsbarnngrill6873 It's hard to buy quality parts. Gotta watch where they're made. Always seems to be some cheap knockoff out there.
Not a mechanic…but I do know we have been habituated to settle for inferior products! Parts these days are garbage!
I still think the joints are not in phase
Well, that was 1000 acres ago now..
It is smooth as silk. I don’t know how much more in line they could be.
Jt, from what ive seen with the newer John Deer tractors and Combines and how the farmer can't work on them because JD wont let the farmer download what ever to fix them. You've got one heck of a foot up because they said farmers are looking for older big horsepower tractors. And you have a nack for finding said tractors and fixing them. You just have to sell them. You could be the next Donald Trump of the Tractor World!!!
I may start selling some as I get them and fix them up. As long as it’s not one I want 😆
👍
Did the new one hold?
New one has been working perfectly for a year now
Have you anymore problems with the shaft?
I have not had a single issue with the new one. I worked that tractor last spring, hard all fall and this summer chiseling wheat and it has worked perfectly
Hi - not sure if they are on your driveline or not, but at each end of these shafts is a kind of torsional damper assembly, that incoporates 4 rubber bushes, originally made by the Lord Company ( a US based Company but can't remember whereabouts) - unfortunately this Company is long since gone and I don't know the specification of the rubber they used so that you could get some replacements made, but my take on this is thar the existing rubber bushes are no doubt perished simply due to age and as a result, their effectiveness at damping out the intial start up torque is found to be wanting. The rubber is bonded to steel bushes but it would largely be a process of trial and error to find out which grade rubber would be most suitable for your particular application. Rubber strength is given by its 'shore' number - the higher the number the stronger the rubber is but potentially brittleness may occur. Best to consult with a rubber specialist more clued up on the finer points of rubber manufacture as I only know of the very basics.
Maybe a bad heat treatment job?
That’s a possibility. It broke real strangely. And probably fluffy is somewhat to blame here 🤣
@@jtsbarnngrill6873 that conical fracture appears in incomplete heat treatment of low carbon materials. Does the metal appear to have a flat crystalline or flaked surface or as it too mangled to tell?
I would say it appears “flakey” from what I can tell
@@jtsbarnngrill6873 probably a combination of inferior metal and poor heat treatment. Likely used an induction method and did not anneal it for stress relief after resulting in the cone shape
I would think one of the four bolts holding the shaft to the flywheel would have broke first.
That has been a concern, although they are the same size as the original ones and grade 8’s. Definitely thought there would be “weaker” points than the “solid” shaft
Chinesium a so ,misser jay T ban n gwill me likie sell u yunk. U can tank your American business man fo moving company here . Ha ha .
Nothing wrong with being honest, need more of it and some common sense here in America 🇺🇸
Haha 😂. Amen brother!
Cheap parts!
junk metal from china
After reading all the comments, I can't find anything I disagree with. Bottom Line, poor quality parts from from a cheap@$$ manufacturer. Thank You Global Economy! I'll be Quiet now. 🤬💥...🇺🇲👍🚜
poor parts looks like china junk