John McArthur Says It's Not a Sin To Make Wedding Cakes For Gay Weddings
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- čas přidán 4. 02. 2024
- John MacArthur Issued a Response Which Is Quoted In This Video. • John MacArthur Clarifi...
There has been a whole heap of controversy lately around Alistair Begg because he advised a grandmother to go to her grandsons gay wedding and to bring a gift. People have been making videos correcting him and showing him his error but he has refused to repent. John McArthur spoke to him privately and he still has not repented and so he has been removed from the Shepherds Conference. But a lot of people are unaware of the fact that John McArthur was asked a very similar question and he actually gave a very similar answer. He said it was not sinful for a Christian to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding. Will people critique John McArthur as they critiqued Alistair Begg? Will John McArthur come out and says "hey, I shouldn't have said that"? Let's find out. - Zábava
John MacArthur Issued a Response Which Is Quoted In This Video. m.czcams.com/video/8gqjYVXtxbM/video.html
Grace and peace my brother in Christ. Because a response has been made to clarify this, may you please take this video down as it is slanderous to Ps. MacArthur? Especially the thumbnail and title. He's a great man of God all by God's grace and it is aiding the enemy's cause slandering a solid Bible teacher.
John McArthur changed his mind after the reaction from others. It was the same years ago when he said we are not saved by the blood of Jesus, which he still believes, when many separated themselves from him. You say he's he's a great teacher and he denies the fundamentals of the faith. 1 we are not saved by the blood, And 2, that sacrifices will be offered up in a rebuilt temple which negates the finished word of the cross. Not a bit of wonder he denies we are saved by the blood. And this saying it's not a sin to bake a cake for a gay marriage. If this does not show he is a wolf in sheep's clothing according to scripture what do you need to make you see so. You say he has a great following. So what. You are sitting on the fence and not standing on the word of God against such false teachers.
I think you should understand that in MacArthur world, they never do anything wrong, are never inconsistent, and never judgmental toward others in things they themselves do. Ever. And when they are clearly wrong... they deflect and deny. It has been that way for years. @@BenTrotterNZ
There was a family baker in Ireland a few years ago who refused to bake a cake for a Gay Wedding ,as it was against their conciense and belief , their business was ruined because of their stance, but after all we are only here for a short time in comparison to eternity, however i think that they are to be admired for the stance they took.
And I would agree, especially if we know when the cake is for for example, a ceremonial event between two homosexuals I won’t call it a marriage because it’s not a marriage but me personally, I would not have endorsed it in anyway
They did the right thing and it will stand them in good stead at their judgement.
I wouldn't take that stance myself, but I wouldn't attend a gay wedding. Just providing food and services is different though.
But your still providing for a sinful activity thereby encouraging your neighbour in their sin.@@saintejeannedarc9460
Unlike the Catholic Church that caved under pressure
Serving food in a restaurant and explicitly making a cake for a celebration of sin is quite obvious in its difference.
Exactly.
And Jesus saith, "Thou shalt not bake thy neighbor a cake if he sinneth against God.:
Wait...
1 John 3:21 (KJV): Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
Matthew 12:7 (KJV): But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
@@Trivdgun-how far are you going to go to accommodate them? The bottom line is that one must be led by the Holy Spirit in all situations. Do you think that might involve fashion. ing, a whip out of cords & over turning all the tables at their g'ay wedding, and then driving them all out ?
@@Trivdgun- Nice try at twisting Scripture. And you ridiculing Biblical Scripture in your first sentence negates your opinion altogether. As a matter of fact, by you defending this ungodly lifestyle that these people partake in says a lot about your point of view.
"Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them" Ephesians 5:11
Amen Norm!
1 Corinthians 10:28 But if anyone says to you, "This was offered to idols" Do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you....
Excellent answer
1 Corinthians 5. 10. Is the grandson a church member??
It is absolutely not loving to encourage people in their sin.
Please read my comment. God bless.
@@simonslater9024If you want someone to read your comment then copy and paste it in a response. No one wants to go searching through all the comments in order to find what you said. Why would you expect someone to do that when you’re unwilling to even do a copy and paste in order for them to see the comment?
Its just a wedding though.
Amen ❤
@@NickGagnon942 the whole belief in a wedding is that it's sanctioned by God. Even a lot of the queers try to get married in churches. They wanna go back to singing terrible music like when they were in church choir crying all the time and making the other guys think "is our religion gay? Why is God ONLY about Love?"
If it's not a sin for a pastry chef to make a cake for a "gay" wedding, then also it would not be a sin for a sculptor to make idols for Baal worship, etc.
True!
I believe you nailed it there
Perfect point, God Bless you 🙏🏾
excellent comparison! 😄
Great point!
Is not a sin to provide services to gays.
The case of the Baker was that he refused to write a verse of the bible that gay twist for their benefits.
He was willing to make them a cake but not to blaspheme the word of the Bible.
Thank you for telling the whole story.
Nothing but the truth
And he was so right about refusing to write that verse! ✝️✝️
@@southerngirl1408
They just wanted to make a fight and get some money out of him.
That is when I noticed my country went WOKE and the gay community started to rebel without cause when we all were in peace before this cake business.
But that wasn’t the question for MacArthur. I can guarantee you he would have had a different answer if that were the question.
@@ABC-1234-
Then, all is just conjecture.
Is like a movie with no end.
"Will he say yes or no?"
I totally get what John is saying, you don’t want the government forcing you to do something against your moral beliefs!
When it comes to the Christian baker, yes you can sell them a cake, just not a custom gay themed one.
Well done, well expressed.
You got exactly what John MacArthur had in mind. The pastor in this video above has misquoted John MacArthur
The wedding cake plays an intricate part in the ceremony. The ceremony is sinful, therefore, the baker played a role in this sinful act. Plain and simple.
What exactly does a custom gay theme wedding cake look like? Does that mean you aren't allowed to have to figures on the cake who both have short hair? Or who both wear certain types of clothing? Many people who worship Jesus today have an image of Him in their minds, and on their walls of a person with long hair who wears something that looks more like a dress than a tuxedo? How much time would you have to invest undressing a person, or persons with your eyes to try to determine if they have a penis or vagina? And to further complicate such important matters, what if the name of the engaged couple are something like Pat and Terry? Are they both the names of males or females, and how do you go about figuring out which is the male's name, and which is the female's?
And, if you are judging people using equal measures, then do you spend as much time and energy making sure every couple who walks through your bakery door have the proper genitalia in order for you to commence making their matrimonial cake?
Please share in detail how you use your expert sense of judgement in such crucial matters of determining whether or not both parties are of proper gender, so that others who may be confused from time to time can learn and be as steadfast as thou in their own eagerness to please the Lord.
@@Rick-the-Swift ..If you don't know what a custom gay wedding cake looks like, I advise you to Google images. Trust me when I tell you, you won't have a hard time knowing it's for a gay wedding.
A person who goes into a place to eat is not professing their sexual identity. A person requesting a homosexual cake is professing their sexual identity. I too have learned form John McArthur, however he is flesh and blood just like all of us and we know all to well how wrong we can be from time to time. Callout warranted.
If two guys were at a table in a restaurant, and they asked the waiter for special dessert to bring because they are celebrating milestone in their relationship. What should the waiter do?
@@donnaengland9591
The waiter should become the cook instead, then no known conflicts.
John MacArthur needs to repent of a whole host of errors.
@@donnaengland9591 Fulfill their request. A guy & gal come in and order same dessert. Ok?
No his wife is at home with their newborn baby and shes the secretary. Congrats everyone!
@@donnaengland9591your right on. Thanks
Wow, I’m surprised. It’s about the wedding, the desecration of the sacred institution of holy matrimony. Not the fact of selling a product.
is a secular ‘wedding’ (legal) the same as a wedding as seen in the bible ? the word ‘wedding’ is a modern construct
exactly. If i run a restaurant and a gay couple walk in wanting to sit at one of my tables to eat i would not be confirming or supporting their homosexuality if they did so and i didn't kick them out.
Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Ephesians 5:11
Is it fellowship to sell a product?
@@seanwalsh6649It is affirming/condoning 💯
@@seanwalsh6649 I would say yes, if it has anything to do with biblical living, in this case, desecration of Gods covenant of marriage.
@@robertguagliardo8804ok so by this logic you cannot do any selling/trading with anyone who is an unbeliever. I ask you, how do you practically plan to function in society under that model? I imagine you’re not living in a puritan village because you are using the internet. You are not living up to this because you are buying services from the internet which isn’t entire comprised of Christians.
I specified “biblical” issues. If I ran a hardware store and a gay couple came in to buy lawn mower blades I would have no trouble whatsoever with that transaction.
John MacArthur was in the Grace to You office to record today, so I asked him about this.
The Q&A from which that excerpt as taken occurred several years ago at a Ligonier conference. The question put to the panel was: “Is it truly sinful for a Christian businessperson (for instance a cake baker) to **produce a product** for a gay wedding?”
The question itself is somewhat ambiguous, as is John's answer. John is clearly thinking the question is about whether it is sinful for a Christian business to serve homosexuals, and he answers accordingly--saying no, it’s not sinful to bake a cake for homosexuals, “any more than its sinful for a guy who runs a restaurant to serve dinner to someone who’s gay.”
Within the scope of how he interpreted the question, it’s the right answer. It's not inherently sinful for a Christian-owned retail establishment to serve a homosexual. John is applying the principle of 1 Corinthians 5:9-10, where the Apostle writes, "I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people; I did not at all mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the greedy and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world."
Nevertheless, it's not the clearest possible answer, because it doesn't take into account what is required of a baker in the preparation of a wedding cake. The cake maker would have to decorate the cake to the couple's specifications (likely with little figures representing a homosexual couple on top), transport it to the wedding, set it up and help arrange it for display in the reception. The baker would thus be present and taking an active part in the actual celebration of this illicit charade imitating marriage.
When I described what all is required of the average baker in the preparation of a formal cake for a wedding reception John replied, "Well, of course you can't do that. To join a celebration of sexual immorality-to imply by your presence at the event that you 'give hearty approval to' an abominable lifestyle would indeed be sinful. Romans 1:32.”
In other words, the circumstance would be different from that of a baker who bakes generic birthday cakes or cookies and sells them from a counter to any and all customers.
John raised that hypothetical in our conversation. He asked:
"If you were a baker, would you sell a birthday cake to a homosexual? If that cake ended up being used in a celebration of gay pride, would you feel you did something sinful?"
"It depends," I said. If a homosexual person bought a generic birthday cake from my cake-counter, I am not responsible for what he does with it. But if he asks me to decorate it with gay pride slogans or perverse imagery that violates my conscience, I could not do it."
"That's precisely the proper distinction," John said. "Producing and selling a product to someone living a sinful lifestyle is not inherently sinful. Celebrating that person's sinful lifestyle in any way IS a sin."
So to sum up: John MacArthur (who has officiated at many weddings but probably has never been involved in the planning of matrimonial food services) was saying that it's not inherently sinful to produce and sell a product that might be used in a gay wedding. But he does not believe Christians should participate in or show tacit approval for any such celebration.
He acknowledged that the answer he gave was incomplete, and he said if he were given another opportunity to answer that question, he would strive to make the critical distinction as clear as possible.
Hurray for clarification! Thank you I think your comment is going to be lost in the many many comments on this thread. I would not have found this if I hadnt scrolled through and caught it. I think it would be wise to take this and reformat it in a single message so that everyone can clearly see it. Most people are not going to find this message in this hay stack. It needs to get out there. Thank you again
The statement he made was misrepresented. He never said "no it is not sinful to make a cake for homosexuals". There was no ambiguity, it was clear --> "No it is not sinful to bake a cake for a gay weddding". So don't see any ownership here!! Because it was not an incomplete answer, it was the wrong answer!
Instead of issuing a statement from John MacArthur (allegedly), wouldn't have served the body of Christ better if John MacArthur issued a VIDEO statement the SAME way he did at the 2017 Ligonier Conference where he CLEARLY said "No, it's NOT sinful for a Christian baker to MAKE A CAKE FOR A GAY WEDDING..."?
Answer: Because, once again, you're covering up for your boss instead of having the integrity to tell the truth and for MacArthur to admit that his words were just as sinful and wrong as Alistair Begg's are.
THAT'S WHY (Prov. 11:1; Jas. 2:1).
Has John Macarthur also repented of saying you can take the mark of the beast and still be saved? I saw him say that and havent listened to him since because of it. Ive looked to see if he repented of such an obvious false teaching. If you have anywhere he has shown to repent of that then let me know
@@Jesusisnumberone5740 NOPE
Thank you for not compromising on these videos, even for preachers that generally preach solid messages. We’re seeing that they too can be led astray.
I agree with you, but come on now, we have to use GODLY wisdom here, you can't own a restaurant and throw somebody out because they're gay, you can't refuse to sell car insurance to someone because of their lifestyle, you get my point now, believe me, I don't agree with Alistair!
@@gabriel-1957 Stop using the word CAN'T!!! You can do whatever you want it is a CHOICE!!
@@gabriel-1957 Baking a cake for a sacrilegious display of a holy and sacred, God-given union is in fact different than making a hamburger for a homosexual.
Please read my comment. God bless.
@@gabriel-1957if I owned a restaurant and the homosexual couple were being to close I’d ask them to leave because I’m not having that filth and perversion in my restaurant. And it’s right not to bake a cake for homosexual’s. Now please read my other comment. God bless.
I think there's a difference in serving a meal or selling a wedding cake to someone who happens to be gay, not knowing or caring what it's for, and having to make a wedding cake that says "Happy Wedding Dave and Dan" on it or something like that.
Absolutely.
Standing for the truth of christ is hard
I just can't understand priests that do this. We can't approve, support or participate in sin. What is the difference between cake and going top one of their parades? The case of the cake maker was they wanted a specific cake with a specific writing. They could buy any cake they wanted, but they wanted a custom cake. There is no difference between this and the catholic pope demon saying theft is good.
All have sinned. So who is exempt? If we say we have no sin...we make God a liar. Where is the boasting?
Forgive me, I am just very confused on how so many could lack charity, long-suffering and go straight to condemnation. No wonder the road is broad. No wonder there would be no faith when Christ returns...Imagine if Christ did not go preach to the sinners. Use these opportunities to try and reach the lost ones. Instead we shut up the doors of the truth in fear of sin, yet against love there is no law. How much more does Christ's blood need to wash away your guilt? I'm so confused by the attitudes. I don't see the Spirit of truth and love in the Church. Does their homosexual sins get transferred onto you via the transaction? Are ye defiled when you ye keepers of the law? Justified even?
I apologize for the rant. The cherrypicking of scripture is absolutely mind blowing to me.
I share your frustration. The problem is that subjective interpretation of Scripture has been the bedrock of Christianity for hundreds of years. I'm afraid I see no other conclusion than that we're stuck with whacky interpretations until Jesus comes. @@Trivdgun-
@@Trivdgun-people who call Jesus “Lord” cannot celebrate something God tells us is sin. I think all of the Christians I know would absolutely invite a homosexual couple to their home and bake a cake- no issue there. The issue is a wedding cake or a wedding gift because the Bible is explicit that God made and united male and female. Homosexual unions are not marriage according to God’s definition in the Bible, which is what Christians stand on. Since we will all stand before God one day, the most loving thing we can do is uphold God’s Word to people, as well as God’s offer of redemption, because God loves all of us, but calls all of us to repent of our sin and accept His salvation.
Catholic pope demon 100%
As a lot of commenters stated, it isn’t the cake but decorations, wording, etc. A wedding cake is a PERSONAL item and as such will be personalized in the decor and wording. At the very least in the decor, two figurines of the couple are usually requested by them for the top of the cake, in this case two representing the same sex. In my humble opinion, Pastor McArthur was very, very wrong on this.
McArthur grieves my spirit. He goes harder on women then he does on sin.
Yep
Harder on women?
Orrrr you're one of those who believe women can be pastors.
John is hard on sin, it's obvious you haven't listened much of his sermons.
@@jonathanramroop9959 Orrrr you believe that women cannot be pastors while disagreeing with JMac for excommunicating a woman from his church for divorcing her abu$ive husband.
Every Christian should rely One what the LORD JESUS CHRIST DID FOR US ON THE CROSS .Than to worry on how we stop sinning. I KNOW Us Christan's that know we are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ on what did on the cross to cleanse from our All of our sins past present and future sins Than to worry about our sins. And our own rightness' ...
Because he makes mistakes?
This is when we place men's tradition above God's holiness. Yes, your products should be sold to everyone but if your product is knowingly being used or promoting a lifestyle that is enmity with God and His word, then it's absolutely wrong. I choose not to promote or condone sin if God allows me to do so because Christ taught me to obey the Father. I love John's messages, but I disagree with him on this. Good point/video Caleb.
Man I wouldn't go to one nor would I do anything for one because then that still shows support which is why I'll do nothing for them!
I'll just say for myself -- I'm seeing more and more these days the actual playing out of 1 Samuel 15:22 :"To obey is better than sacrifice." And how not being obedient to God by participating in something which is seemingly innocuous but is clearly defined as sin before God can result in tragic consequences.
So saying to the woman caught in the act of adultery "Neither do I condemn you..." should be regarded as sinful then?
@@joelunchbucket Jesus did not catch the woman “in the act of adultery” as you claim, but instead forgave a woman who was repentant of this sin. We know she was repentant because Christ does not forgive unrepentant sinners.
@@ABC-1234- John 8:4 "They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act." KJV I didn't actually say that Jesus caught her, just that she was caught in the very act. That was my claim.
@@joelunchbucket The point is that one must be repentant in order to receive forgiveness.
Would John MacArthut bless Demetrius the Silversmith's business of making and selling idols of Artemis?
Just as Ploycarp denied Ceasar his incense. The same goes for a personal cake.
Caesar wasn't asking for Polycarp to make a wedding cake. He was asking him to renounce his faith by worshiping Caesar. That's very different.
Such an awesome mic dropping moment…the proconsul told polycarp to say “away with the atheists” and polycarp looked around at all the pagan Roman’s and said “away with the atheists!”……hahahah
@@Presence_over_blessings what
@@Jesusisnumberone5740read the martyrdom of polycarp
Macarthur lost me years back when he said you can get the mark of the beast and still be saved
MacArthur was asked that if during the tribulation someone who had taken the mark of the beast, then repented of having taken it, and called upon Christ for salvation could they be saved? MacArthur's response was that there is no curse that Christ cannot break, so I would say yes they could be saved if they were to do that. This statement was made in light of the question being hypothetical, and knowing that once someone had accepted the mark they would never be given grace to repent, so it would never happen. Typical people taking what is said out of context to try and cause people not to trust a preacher, which is exactly what this post will do, whether the guy in the video intends to do that or not.
@@zekelewis-uy4co rev 14:
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Yes, and amen. MacArthur would amen that too. There will be none who repent after having taken the mark because of God's judgment on them. The person that asked MacArthur that question asked if they repent would they be saved, to which MacArthur essentially responded yes, but they would never repent.@@larriveeman
This is another case of people choosing to follow another person's interpretation over what the Bible clearly says. Gaslight someone else
Who's following a different interpretation? I'm explaining a statement that MacArthur made, and how it has been taken out of context to make it sound as if MacArthur teaches something he does not teach. I'm pretty sure as far as that portion of scripture is concerned me, you and MacArthur would probably agree. @@david84ss
I’m in the medical field and I provided care for mostly gay HIV-AIDS patients in the 90s-2000s, I cared about them and I couldn’t say NO. Should we only provide care or services to Christians? The cake thing maybe about putting two men or two women figures on the top (?)
@@notsatchExactly! People are just not using their God given brains.
I'm not making a cake. To go along with it is to agree with it.
I feel the same. If I was a baker I would be willing to make any of them a birthday cake or if it was a cake that didn't promote homosexuality or these crazy pronouns or a cult.
Whats not to agree with?
@@NickGagnon942 everything
@@johnrobertd748 I dont get the gay hate.
@@NickGagnon942 It's not gay hate. It's love the sinner hate the sin, and I'm taking no part in the sin
Wow!!! Thank you for sharing this. May the Lord have mercy on us all. Judging as we have not judged ourselves.
Good morning Bro Caleb. Do you think it's human nature that we all will get scripture and context wrong at some point unintentionally?
I wonder if a question was asked like If an ex-spouse wanted a baker to make a divorce cake would he (John M) say go for it?
We all have to be held accountable to each other and we will be held accountable to the Lord
Never heard of Alister B
You are 100% correct. Iron sharpens iron!
We are all fallible sister so yes even John Mac gets things wrong. No one correctly perfectly understands the entire Bible except the Lord himself.
@@michaelnewzealand1888
I agree.
All of us can fall. We are sinners. The problem is many pastors won't repent when they realize they may have given bad advise.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Agreed. Amen.
Amen Caleb! Thanks for standing for the truth, and not having the fear of man. 🙏
With all due respect to the video commentator because I frequently peep into his channel, there’s a nuance to Mr. McArthur’s response that’s NOT taken into consideration. When Mr. McArthur stated baking a cake for a gay wedding would be no more sinful than serving a gay person at a local restaurant, his assessment CLEARLY indicates that there are times when a commercial owner will NOT have direct knowledge of the intentions or motives with their consumer base. I mean, would a commercial owner know that their providing goods or services to a murderer or escaped convict, probably not. There are still many gay couples that do not reveal their sexual orientation in the consumer markets. In some seldom cases when Christian-commercial owners do know their consumers’ sexual orientation or ulterior motives, then a divisionary line will have to be assessed and drawn between the business owners’ contribution to society and God as the Scriptures state (just paraphrasing). Although, I do understand the video commentator’s point that we as Christians should NOT be participating in matrimonies or events that are NOT of God’s will, yes, true that, I certainly agree. However, from a Christian standpoint, one has to look behind the scenes and assess the intentions of the commercial owners. There’s a DIFFERENCE between providing or selling goods and services for just commercial purposes opposed to having the knowledge of what those goods or services are being used for by the consumer. The bottom line, what Mr. McArthur alluded to is that the human intentions or motives of some consumers are NOT so transparent at times. Although, Mr. McArthur could have been more direct in his response.
Very well worded.
@@donnaengland9591 ok
But its confusing some commentator said this was in response to a sueing case where the cake demanded a bible verse (ie perversion of, fit for that celebration wedding)
But he spoke of the conscience of the baker. If the baker did not know there is no way it could affect their conscience. I love John, but I think he got this one wrong.
Thank you. I have been waiting for someone to comment on what John MacArthur said of similar thing.
Making a cake for a gay wedding as long as the cake is plain without it being identified as a gay cake would be equal to serving in a restaurant to a gay couple if its your business is not wrong as far as your conscience is concerned. Attending a gay wedding confirming it with your presence is a totally different issue.
No it would be like making a cake for a gay wedding. Nothing like serving food in a restaurant.
@@iThinkBiblicallycan you elaborate ..why you think above ans is wrong
@@iThinkBiblically I agree with @cecilfoster3788, If the restaurant is not supporting the gay lifestyle by selling them a meal, then neither is the baker for selling them a non descript cake.
@@RockinandwatchinI don’t think they should be served anywhere in general but that’s just me. Should be criminalized like it was in this country 200 years ago. Capital crime.
There is a difference between making a cake for a gay man to eat and making one for him to use for a so called marriage. Those 2 are different
If even a gay man comes to me and doesn't tell me he wants a cake for a so called wedding, I will not be sinning if I make it as long as they are not asking me to put in effects that scream out to me ita for a gay so called marriage. So please pay attention to the different cases
There is a keynote difference between MacArthur’s scenario and Begg’s. MacArthur’s scenario was born out of the US gov’t compelling Christians to participate in events that were antithetical to their faith. MacArthur is describing a person who is engaged in the profession of making cakes. Should one interrupt the existing flow of business, or refrain from providing services upon learning the wedding isn’t an actual wedding? This is the basis of the MacArthur clip. Does maintaining the existing flow of business constitute affirmation in the same way that showing up to the wedding, gift in tow does? I’ll leave that for readers to decide for themselves; however, I find it rather sloppy reasoning to suggest that these two cases mirror each other.
I agree.
@@donnaengland9591 it seems then borned out of fear/worry about the govt laws but bible is very clear what to do/teach when those laws contradict God's.! (not saying the fear/worry from eithrr him or the perosn who posed that question isnt legit, but as he is a professed Teacher of the bible, he may need to uphold it even more firmly now .. if or as he can.. as that would strengthen all believers who continue to want to please God despite this that and the other)..
JMac primarily addressed it as a matter of conscience and framed it as an issue of "showing love" Furthermore in 2008 or 2009 he SPECIFICALLY said it was wrong regardless of legal implications 180 flip and he's never acknowledged it. You could see in the clip how the audience laughed when the question was asked because Jmac had already made his stance known. Deadly silence as he rolls out his compromised stance. Look at the guy next to him listening- he looks like he can hardly believe what he is hearing. Nice try to stand up for your hero, but he's wrong and has been for a while. You are saying it's ok to compromise your values for money, and that is a lie from hell.
@@VigilantServantwhere is the clip? I would like to see it.
Thank you. I agree totally
I'm waiting for someone to address the John McArthur and Eileen Gray situation that's come to light.
You are not alone! But the crickets are super loud out here!
Great analysis. Thank you for this. do you have the link to the Ligonier conference link that has this in it? Thank you!
i'm not sure why MacArthur said this...there's a clear difference between serving people in "general", regardless of their worldview and being asked to provide a service for something that "celebrates" behavior you know is wrong...i do agree, though, that the government has no right to force you to do so...
Not only that. When you buy food or anything else at the store they don't know anything about you.
Agreed. So here's the question: If you can figure this out, and I can figure this out and just about everybody else can figure this out, then why can't the celebrity preacher who wants us to buy every resource he puts out, i.e. commentaries, bibles, and the bazillion books he's written figure it out? We need to stop it! Stop following and supporting these over achieving authors.
It's not the cake but the wording on it that's the issue. It's like saying that's not sinful when a Satanist orders one with words exalting the devil or cursing God.
it's a place of business. And might I add that if you work for an non believing supervisor, you have to still do your best for the glory of God.
Please read my comment. God bless.
John is wrong.
He was also wrong about animals being in heaven, or the afterlife, if you will. Animals are obviously a part of Yah’s creation and they will definitely be in the new heaven and the new earth.
He was also wrong about women not being made In the image of God. Junias was notable among the Apostles.. And Phoebe was a deacon not servant. As mistranslated by male translators. he also said Eve was subordinate to Adam before the fall. . That is not true. They were both equal rulers over the earth. Adam had no authority over Eve. That is a result of the fall and sin that man rules over woman. Not a command from God. Adam From the fall has the propensity to dominate and desire power over others. It is seen alL over the world and even in churches. Especially pastors.
@@reynold26marshall25 aren't there already cherubims and being that looks like animals in heaven already
@@viyusavery248 exactly my friend, that’s the point. John was definitely wrong this time.
John McArthur was also wrong about Christians being able to receieve the Mark of the beast and still have salvation!!!!! @@reynold26marshall25
A little levan levans the whole lump.
Mc Arthur too?😢
MacArthur teaches a false gospel of works salvation (Lordship salvation). He doesn’t distinguish salvation from discipleship. That which is free from that which is costly.
@@SheepofChrist818No he does not teach that! 😂 You are sadly misinformed, I promise you. I’ve listened to hundreds of hours of his sermons and I would be every bit as against such a teaching as you appear to be. I would never listen to a pastor who taught such a thing.
John teaches against the idea of the “Carnal Christian,” which may be what you’re referring to. Scripture is clear that good works always follow those who are truly born again. This is what John teaches. Someone who claims to be saved, but shows no signs of it by how they live their life and who has no interest in the things of God is definitely not saved.
@@ABC-1234-
Well the Bible doesn’t teach that doctrine at all. Paul did teach that the Corinthians were Carnal, but in Christ.
@@SheepofChrist818 But the Corinthians desired Christ and were willing to be corrected. This is not true of the type of people MacArthur speaks of. He is speaking of people who couldn’t care less for the things of God or sinning against Him. People like that are not saved, clearly. How can you hate the things of God, but claim to be saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit? “Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you,” speaks of people who claim to be saved, but were not. The Bible is clear that there are many who believe they are saved who are not.
I love the fact that John MacArthur said its a personal thing. Everyone has their own liberty in christ and conscience.
Hey brother - I had not seen this clip of MacArthur until your video popped up in my feed. I reached out to Phil Johnson and he spoke with John MacArthur about it. Here is Phil's reply:
John was in the Grace to You office to record today, so I asked him about this.
The Q&A from which that excerpt as taken occurred several years ago at a Ligonier conference. The question put to the panel was: “Is it truly sinful for a Christian businessperson (for instance a cake baker) to **produce a product** for a gay wedding?”
The question itself is somewhat ambiguous, as is John's answer. John is clearly thinking the question is about whether it is sinful for a Christian business to serve homosexuals, and he answers accordingly--saying no, it’s not sinful to bake a cake for homosexuals, “any more than its sinful for a guy who runs a restaurant to serve dinner to someone who’s gay.”
Within the scope of how he interpreted the question, it’s the right answer. It's not inherently sinful for a Christian-owned retail establishment to serve a homosexual. John is applying the principle of 1 Corinthians 5:9-10, where the Apostle writes, "I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people; I did not at all mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the greedy and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world."
Nevertheless, it's not the clearest possible answer, because it doesn't take into account what is required of a baker in the preparation of a wedding cake. The cake maker would have to decorate the cake to the couple's specifications (likely with little figures representing a homosexual couple on top), transport it to the wedding, set it up and help arrange it for display in the reception. The baker would thus be present and taking an active part in the actual celebration of this illicit charade imitating marriage.
When I described what all is required of the average baker in the preparation of a formal cake for a wedding reception John replied, "Well, of course you can't do that. To join a celebration of sexual immorality-to imply by your presence at the event that you “give hearty approval to” an abominable lifestyle would indeed be sinful. Romans 1:32.”
In other words, the circumstance would be different from that of a baker who bakes generic birthday cakes or cookies and sells them from a counter to any and all customers.
John raised that hypothetical in our conversation. He asked:
"If you were a baker, would you sell a birthday cake to a homosexual? If that cake ended up being used in a celebration of gay pride, would you feel you did something sinful?"
"It depends," I said. If a homosexual person bought a generic birthday cake from my cake-counter, I am not responsible for what he does with it. But if he asks me to decorate it with gay pride slogans or perverse imagery that violates my conscience, I could not do it."
"That's precisely the proper distinction," John said. "Producing and selling a product to someone living a sinful lifestyle is not inherently sinful. Celebrating that person's sinful lifestyle in any way IS a sin."
So to sum up: John MacArthur (who has officiated at many weddings but probably has never been involved in the planning of matrimonial food services) was saying that it's not inherently sinful to produce and sell a product that might be used in a gay wedding. But he does not believe Christians should participate in or show tacit approval for any such celebration.
He acknowledged that the answer he gave was incomplete, and he said if he were given another opportunity to answer that question, he would strive to make the critical distinction as clear as possible.
Fair enough, but I thought I heard him use the words “gay wedding“ in the initial part of his answer in that clip. At the very least, his answer was incredibly unclear and/or incomplete. I do believe a more public, visible statement from Greece to you, would be warranted to clear up any confusion. Not everyone is going to see this CZcams comment, nor will they all necessarily be looking for it. Something just as public as that clip needs to come out in contradistinction to it. God bless, brother.
Hi brother, this comment was a pleasure to read. I will take the video down and issue a follow up video with his response. I’m quite happy with his response. It just shows how godly, humble and consistent John MacArthur really is!
The statement he made was misrepresented. He never said "no it is not sinful to make a cake for homosexuals". There was no ambiguity, it was clear --> "No it is not sinful to bake a cake for a gay weddding". So it wasn't an incomplete answer, it was a wrong answer and therefore I don't see any ownership or humility here!!
Is anyone willing to admit that?
Thank You for not showing partially here brother Caleb, much as i love and respect pastor John Mac, we should follow what the Holy Spirit says :
ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED, AND PROFITABLE FOR TEACHING , REBUKING , CORRECTION , TRAIINING.
And so we eagerly wait to see videos of CORRECTION on John's statements,
Maybe Pastor MacArthor’s comments about the cake had an influence on Pastor Begg’s answer to attend a LGBTQ ceremony? 🤔. Solid video. Thank you!
Oh good grief
Thank you for your delightful insights on the word of God, on topics such as thise , it's very valuable❤
Thank you for your unbiased video, exposing the sin of partiality here, both men should be held accountable, grace and peace 🙏🏿
I’m a designer and I had to make art for a gay group. I didn't have a choice it was my bosses client and my boss paid me to do this work. I honestly, did a good job and treated the client like any other with dignity and respect. They even asked me to create more art for them. I left that job shortly after but, I struggled as a Christian artist because all my clients are sinners just some are saved and some are not. I want to love the unsaved. My work is to God’s glory even if the client is yet a sinner.
You did have a choice, you chose to cave in. God will provide financially for His people so we must not fear.
There's a difference between a business and a personal decision. As a Christian business, you shouldn't be forced to make a cake. Going to a wedding, you shouldn't go to support, or be seen as being an enabler. If John was reminded, he may repent of the comment.
I just found your channel and it recommended this video. I applaud how you address this. You make a very good and fair point. You were very balanced and respectful in how you talk about both MacArthur and Begg. Well done, keep it up.
"No, it's not sinful for a cake maker to make a cake for a gay wedding anymore than its sinful for a guy who runs a restaurant to serve dinner to somebody who is gay, sits in a booth and eats the food, or goes to the market and buys a loaf of bread and you own the market," he argued. "What the issue is, is not whether that's sinful. It's whether the federal government can demand that people do certain things, which goes against their Christian conscience."
MacArthur argued tha
I'm not sure if maybe your comment got cut off? I don't know what point you were trying to make.@@Sherlock245
I see what you all are saying I was talking about selling a cake not baking it specifically for them. Sorry I misunderstood
So the only issue i see with the statment made by johnny mac, was the making of a cake for a gay wedding. Not the message of or on the cake, which might be against our Lord jesus christ. I also noticed this was a pivotal situation for a cake maker being sued, it wasnt the cake that was the stopping point but the message on it.
Providing a service to people is not the issue here. It’s the providing of service in the full knowledge that you’re catering towards sin that has become the issue.
Christians are supposed to understand the difference between hospitality and tolerance. Whilst Christians should be hospitable towards people… we are not tolerant of sin.
Yes!
Selling a cake for the "wedding" as a business transaction is not the same as attending the "wedding" to celebrate. Macarthur said that selling a cake was a matter of conscience for the believer which is fine as every cake selling situation is going to be different.
Bingo
What interview/conference/panel is Dr. MacArthur speaking with? Maybe I missed the reference to the source but would like to know. Does anyone know?
"No, it's not sinful for a cake maker to make a cake for a gay wedding anymore than its sinful for a guy who runs a restaurant to serve dinner to somebody who is gay, sits in a booth and eats the food, or goes to the market and buys a loaf of bread and you own the market," he argued. "What the issue is, is not whether that's sinful. It's whether the federal government can demand that people do certain things, which goes against their Christian conscience."
@@Sherlock245 I was asking about the source of the video, like where did it come from, what conference, Q&A panel etc .
@@hooverrox2397 it's not in that video it was private and John spoke to pastor alistar.
I believe this whole video presented was fabricated., which conveniently has a non verifiable source.
I don’t know how I feel about this one. Aleister begs situation is more cut and dry. Don’t go to a gay wedding. This one I feel is more nuisance. Like this is more transactional. But if you don’t want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, fine that totally understandable. But where do you draw the line at? Do you bake a cake for a Muslim wedding where they will more than likely blaspheme Christ? Do you bake a cake for an atheist? And it doesn’t necessarily have to be a wedding cake. Where do you draw the line? That’s my fight in this understanding. Where do I draw the line?
You bake a cake for the Muslim couple because marriage between a man and woman is traditional and an institutional practice through the ages regardless of religious practices. The only time to not actively participate is when it's between a believer and a non believer. And let's be real, why will a Baker ask a couple if they are both Christians before proceeding to bake. We bake the cake and mind our business if the union is between man and woman
@@OluS2023 well that’s what I’m saying. When do we go from minding our business to making it our business and denying service?
@@Jude1ministries when an explicit commandment is broken, or when it is brought to our notice that the law of the Lord would be broken in baking ( for the person's conscience, we don't), or when the spirit of christ through his word brings to our notice... The list goes on. But, more importantly, when we seek to please the lord in all things, he leads us in the path that pleases him. Trust in the lord and seek his will in all things. Just don't go into the meat market (as Paul wrote) and begin questioning everything being sold, or in this matter questioning every cake requests case by case.
@@OluS2023 well that makes sense. I’m just thinking of the times, hypothetically, like you’re already half way through baking the cake and then you find out it’s for a gay wedding. Or if a mom comes in and wants a cake, but then you find out it’s for her gay son’s wedding. Is that you still acting in a sinful way? That’s what I’m thinking about. Like if a gay couple comes in and wants a cake for their wedding. Deny them services. That’s easy. I’m thinking of the different factors that came come in and muddy the waters
MacArthur will reply "...forget it...just forget it..." if he is asked to respond publically with repentance.
Yea, like he did with the sexual abuse victims!
@@UnfollowingDavidLynn I Don't know too much about John MacArthur. My friend has listened to him though. Has John MacArthur done sexual Abuse to women?? What do you mean by your comment?? Could you explain?? I Would Really like to know. Thank you!! Much Appreciated!!
Since John MacArthur uninvited Alistair Begg from the Shepherd’s Conference, it seems based on the same criteria, he should recuse himself as well.
Yes exactly. And MacArthurs little minion Justin Peters was plastering it today over public Facebook that Alistair has been uninvited to the “Shepherds Conference” - All of theses men are a disgrace and a super far cry of what true leadership in the body of Christ is meant to be.
It is refreshing to see truth and integrity coming from a Christian leader!! God bless you!!
John also said you could take the mark of the beast and still be saved.
No if you take the mark your done you to to hell it cant be both either you are Faithful until death or you take the mark dont be deceived.
Ok I heard about this but haven’t seen any footage of when he said this, and can you link the source please
@@PraiseBreakin
Revelation 16:2 And the first went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and there was an evil and painful sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs before him, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
So, do the two verses above say that the recipients of the mark, and those who worship the image of the beast, are thrown into the lake of fire - or just the false prophet and the beast?
The first verse says that the recipients and worshippers of the image will receive painful sores, but I don't see them being thrown into the lake of fire alongside the beast and the false prophet.
Happy to be corrected with scripture though.
Are you saying it's impossible to repent and come to Christ after someone takes the mark?
@@PrisonPreacher it’s not me saying it
It’s The Word of God
People worship at the feet of John MacArthur never questioning anything he says or does. He is not held to the same standard as others.
If another pastor would have said it's not a problem if a person takes the mark of the beast because they can ask for forgiveness.
It's ok for him to give support (even financial) to a man in his church in jail for sexually abusing his children, but vilifying the wife for trying to protect her children.
I don't agree with Begg's opinion for this grandma, but I am sick and tired of the double standard with MacArthur getting a pass on everything. He is like a protestant pope that people look at as the infallible one. No minister is perfect and above all. They are just as human and fallible as everyone. They need to repent when they get something or do something wrong.
👏👏👏👏 Well said! People also forget that he closed his doors for a while at the start of c0vid lockd0wns saying it was good to obey authorities before making his grand gesture of obeying God rather than Caesar.
Honest question, is it the knowledge of it being a Gay event and supplying some product or service that’s makes it wrong or is it wrong if something you make or produce ends up at a Gay wedding? Like if the electric company was owned by a Christian and that person knew a certain gay couple planned on using the electricity during their wedding event, should he or she cut the power?
Well said
@@notsatch so knowledge, that’s what I was thinking.
Thank you for making this. I am sure you will get a lot of heat, but you did the right thing. Glory to God!
I think you should extend the same standards when you speak about other ministers of the gospel. Just because someone is wrong in a particular point of biblical doctrine doesn't mean they are only out to deceive and manipulate the church to their own gain. So John MacArthur was wrong, and you'd like to think if he was confronted he would admit it? I would like to think the same thing of particular ministers you have highlighted, but did not give the same benefit of doubt in your videos. Lets all try to be impartial and fair in our judgement of others. Thanks for your videos, I think you are helping us all to rightly divide the truth!
excellent comment.
...Of course NOT!!! You'll NEVER hear any of John MacArthur's fanatics criticize him for ANYTHING, even when his sin is obvious!!
🎯💯
How long ago was this clip form MacArthur?
Seeing John in video. I would guess about 8 years old
This is a great video. Thank you for helping. Neither of them are false teachers. By the way, has there been any known occasion where John McArthur was challenged by someone else to retract a comment and he replied "Yeah, that was a dumb thing for me to say, or I was wrong"?
Where do you draw the line with "providing services"? Show up and do the photographs? What about catering? It seems to me there's a very fine line between providing a good vs providing a service. Are you participating AT the event or not. I tend to agree with JMac on this....its a matter of conscience. I think there's a HUGE difference between providing a business service, and showing up in a personal capacity.
So AJ, do you think Jesus would make a gay wedding cake in celebration of two men or two women becoming husband and husband or wife and wife? Would Jesus cross that line? Of course He wouldn't. He would most likely cause the building to collapse on the unholy ceremony and crush that gay cake.
@@Notacalvinist_24Jesus would command the sodomites to be rocked, like he did in the Old Testament
@@Notacalvinist_24agreed
Yeaaaaa true love is the truth.
The Baker in Ireland who refused to bake a cake for a homosexual "marriage", got condemned and lost all. But in higher court he finally won. You're free to refuse.
I met some of his family.
Amen!
This is an old video BEFORE McAtthur clarified his answer and dropped Begg from the Shepherds conference. As you can see from McAtthur's old answer, he wasn't focused on what the Christian baler should do, but what the Government response should be. This channel has already posted a newer video, please see the newest video on this.
As to McAtthur answering through Phil; McAtthur is going through health issues right now. Also, it is proper to hand off more responsibility to the "heir apparent" as you see death approaching. McAtthur's latest answer is perfect.
IMO the issues are not similar. If a friend or family member asks you to bake a wedding cake, you can show your disagreement to the lifestyle by refusing to participate. If a total stranger would ask your business for the same, what would you accomplish by turning them away? If 2 men would like to celebrate their engagement by going for dinner....is the owner suppose to kick them out when he realise the reason for them having dinner?
The irony in it all would be for a christian to support a hindu owned supermarket or a car dealership with a cursing atheistic owner.
But more....christians are quick to let gossipers and idolaters of the hook because they are friends and part of the congegration whilst supporting these people but would reject total strangers. Things are not alway black and white.
Well said..... So i guess one can't buy groceries from a shop whose owner is Muslim..... Because by definition you would be supporting a person who is not Christian..... So yeah..... If one wants to be black and white in everything then one needs to find out all the relivant details of a supplier and decide to support them or not..... And what about big shopping chains.... With shareholders who are anti Christian or Muslim or gay... And so on... We had better boycott them all as well I guess
I think as a business they are customers first. The Bible says not to fellowship with unfruiful works of darkness but selling cakes in a business isn't fellowship, you are making a living to support yor family. If we can't sell cakes because of people being gay then we couldn't sell cakes cause God hates all sin.
Oh its pretty much black and white. When you make that cake you are writing on the cake a congratulations to their wickedness. Then you are adding the two male figures a top of the cake or your adding the two women representing an unholy union. Do you Jesus would make such a cake? Absolutely Jesus would not make such a unholy Rainbow cake and neither should we. In black and white WWJD? Stop making excuses for John MacAurther.
💯. So much effort to push ppl away from Christ rn. In a time of epic infiltration of churches by satanic covens Freemasons etc I’m beginning to not trust many “Christian” accounts.
Question- how many good ppl do you think are pushed away from Jesus when “Christians” continually post things like this? Jesus would be praying for them not whatever this is.
@@memecottrill
"No soup for you".😊
Pope MacArthur always has an excuse ready for how his flock can continue to make money and switch off their moral and religious conscience.
To his point if you own a store and someone say hey im gonna need 10 loaf of these breads packaged for this gay party would that be wrong? I dont think so. Now if the person made a gay cake with gay imagery and writing i think thats a difference but selling them a regular cake for they wedding, nah.
@@hankhill2154 maybe if they so freely want to talk about their parties.. we can genuinely freely engage back in evangelism? Ie conversing about God and salvation or pray openly for them to begin to open their hearts to see things differently from God's Love's perspective? Either that, or shove off and stop bullying straight people
@@trulyso734 i agree but this topic aint as black and white as everyone makes it seem because who says gay weddings are the only non biblical ones, what about if someone wants a cake Vegas wedding do we deny that. I aint arguing btw im just trynna see all sides, i myself dont know how to go about these situations
💯🎯
True !!
Thank GOD , that not everyone is falling for the
Mc wolf !!!!
Thank you for having the courage to bring this to light. A true walk with Jesus is to be a NO Compromised walk.
It is sad that the "Church leaders" are afraid to call out John McArthur. I first learned this when he and his deacons stood behind one of the music teachers who was abusing his wife and children. She went to the church leaders for help and was shamed saying she needed to submit and work things out which she tried, the abuse only got worse. She realized he wasn't going to change and moved out. Her husband and the leaders of the church started harassing her. John McArthur called her out during a church service humiliating her. To make a long story short her husband is serving time in prison for child molestation and this is not the first person John McArthur and his deacons have covered up for. Anyone can research this and find out what I am saying is fact. John McArthur calling her out during a church service is on youtube and the story of several church members who have been shamed for coming to the leaders of the church for help only to be told she was the one in the wrong. I stopped listening to John McArthur after seeing he and "his church" Do Not follow the Bible but are like the Pharisees making up their own rules.
Thank you for making this video
There is no such thing as a "gay" wedding cake. Also, there is no such thing as a "gay" wedding. There are secular weddings recognized by the state which seems to include 2 people of various genders (non-binary, gay, trans, hetero etc) The true church only recognizes a union of 2 persons (male and female) becoming one. You can't make McDonald's cook you a Whopper, it's not on their menu... they don't have the ingredients. If a wedding cake is ordered and a person want 2 men or 2 women featured on top of the cake simply say "we don't offer that, we don't carry that. Sell them the cake and let them find their own decorations that signify 2 men or women. Of course we must first listen to our conscience, what soever is not of faith is sin.
Nope....don't even become involved in their "celebration" of abomination.
I don't trust john mcarthur.
He’s going to hell he’s a Calvinist.
💯👍🎯
This is perhaps somewhat out of context, however I am persuaded that Romans 14:23 and in context the passage Romans 14:13-23 bears out the principle that if your conscience hinders you one should definitely not take part. I am persuaded also that to make a statement that "it is not a sin" is to to destroy another believer.
Do you know when this statement was made or if he since took it back?
At the 2017 Ligonier Regional Conference
He has clarified the statement through Phil Johnson recently. He has also dropped Begg from the Shepherd conference he runs.
@@JRRodriguez-nu7po I just saw the video on the clarification. It was an excellent clarification.
Our local churches gave out bottles of water at a Pride event. I dont think they wanted to endorse their lifestyle rather to make them think about being served by their natural enemies.
They thought the church was supporting them.
What a terrible thing to do for a church. Were they telling them to repent with the water bottle? I doubt it.
They should have put scriptures on the bottles.
They also did wrong. Giving water to those at their sin is not righteous. You should shun them. It's not the same as giving water to a gay man in need of water. But not when he is sinning by opposing God. That is not wise !!!
Perhaps Christians should run humility rallies - what would that look like??
McArthur does not believe that the gifts of the Spirit are alive today. I do not care what he says .
That is so crazy to me?? Lots of people don’t believe that. How can people think the gifts of the Spirit have ceased?? Makes no sense to me.
Not being silly, but, seriously would you bake a cake for him even though he doesn’t believe what you believe?
@@donnaengland9591 I would bake a cake for anybody if I was a baker. Business is business.
🎯💯👍
@iThink Biblically YOU need to provide the full version and context of this Ligonier video session .
What is the difference between what Pastor Begg said and what McArthur said. ?
Sadly now I'm second guessing if i should continue to follow John McArthur's preaching because out of the blue he's now tacitly approving same-sex marriage with his approval of Christians providing a wedding cake????? This is not "compassion", this is approval . I am so disappointed and saddened by this preacher who is I've followed since exiting the Catholic Church and will not trust him anymore either. 😓😓
Stop second guessing and just do it. It will help you to search about the sex abuse scandal that he refuses to make right.
Should shop owners refuse to sell their products to LGBTQ+ people?
Should health care providers refuse to offer services to these groups of people?
No, we shouldn’t participate in the celebration of sin though.
@@iThinkBiblicallybut is it sinful to make the cake? That was the question and he answered correctly, it is not.
But it certainly can be a conscience issue as he stated.
The vast majority of people are not of God. You'd be serving all sorts of people all the time, unaware of their private lives.
@@iThinkBiblicallymaking the cake is not celebrating the wedding, going to the wedding is celebrating it.
Clearly different.
You are mixing apples with oranges. One making a cake in celebration of ones sin has nothing to do with providing life-sustaining treatment for ones life. One action has the appearance of evil or rather is evil the other is good works.
You make a good point about this issue, do we want to comfort sin or explain why we say no. But there is also the issue of not providing a service if you have a business which may create legal problems.
I said that we all have a right to take a stand for what we believe in if I’m a Christian business owner of a bakery and two men and two women came in and want me a big cake for the wedding I will have to say I’m sorry I can’t do it because of my belief and if they get mad that’s their problem
Isn't making the wedding cake tantamount to saying that you agree with the wedding that's taking place between two people of the same sex? John did a masterful job of deflecting. He should have gone into politics.
Hahah
*You all better run from this ''man of God'' who can't see any of the thousands of blasphemous and obvious changes the AC made in his own bible using blackmagic in fulfillment of prophecy. You have been warned!*
Amen
Which man are you talking about, Caleb or John Mac? And what does AC stand for??
Just wanting to understand you better.
*What The Father has spoken will never change, His promises are still good and our prayers are still answered! Hallelujah!!! But as impossible as this sounds, like so many of the true stories in scripture, our bibles have all been supernaturally changed by Satan in the last several years, right in our homes, in the fulfillment of prophecy. It's being done to prepare for the reign of the antichrist. All languages and all translations have been changed along with concordances, encyclopedias, dictionaries, history books, the original Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Aramaic manuscripts. Even the Dead Sea Scrolls have been changed!*
*I'm 71, was saved when I was 10, and have read only the exact same copy of the King James bible my church gave me in 1961. (This does not mean I was a King James onlyist but now I'm glad I never read other ones or I might not have noticed the changes as soon.) I had memorized many scriptures from it through the years. Then in 2014 I started seeing changes in it that I couldn't explain. I had never owned a computer or heard of the Mandela Effect back then. But after being given my first computer in 2016 I finally found out why I had been noticing all of the oddities that I couldn't explain. I then started diligently studying what should actually be called the "Daniel 7:25 effect". That's where God said He would give the antichrist the power to do this. (Change times and laws, history and scripture) We're seeing many end times prophecies being fulfilled SUPERNATURALLY! This is some of the "lying signs and wonders" God told us He would give the AC power to perform which would even deceive His very elect, if it were possible in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two!*
*God said in the end of days, (NOW!) that He would send us a famine for hearing His words in Amos **8:11** and that He would give the antichrist the ability to do this in Daniel 7:25. In Daniel 12:4 & 12:9 He told him to seal his book until the end days. He told John **_not_** to seal his book because the end time is at hand in Revelation 22:10. One of the Greek definitions of seal in Strongs concordance is “to protect from Satan”. He also told us to “write His words in our hearts”, which meant memorize, if not word for word at least the essence of what was written, because He knew this was going to happen.*
*God commanded us to "prove all things", and people **_better_** obey Him, especially on this subject. I urge you to research this. There are many brothers and sisters making videos about the changes with more proof of what was originally written and I have lots more about this in my playlist 👉 which can be found by typing in (proof of bible change residue junkie)* 👈
*I've continued stay in God's word by reading what has been documented to be what used to be written and what Satan has been changing. Soon Amos **8:12** will be fulfilled too and we won't be able to find God's word anymore, and the only way it can happen is by not being able to see these videos that document what used to be written in our bibles.*
*_May God bless all who read this with eyes to see this incredible faith strengthener, and how close we are to our Saviour's return!!!!_*
*P.S. Everyone is going to learn about this one way or the other. I'm just trying to save people from hearing Jesus explain it to them at the Gate. If you ask for them at the address on my about page I will send you links for 15 films that absolutely prove the snake bite is the mark. And yt hates me, they won't notify me of replies and won't post my answers so write me at residue junkie in one word at g mail for lots more info yt would never allow you to see.* ❤✝️💪
100% agree with you. It should be the same standard. I'm really shocked that John answered like this. Really cannot trust any of these pastors.
First of all, how recently did he make those comments and did he clarify anything since?
It was the 2017 Ligonier Regional Conference
It was also a “hot topic” at the time as there was a case in the US courts of a Christian baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. So that really was the context around the question asked.
Dude you are reaching very far out there with this comparison and they are nothing like each other and it probably comes from your dislike of John MacArthur being a Calvinist.
I love John McArthur.
No I disagree with you. A business is performing a business transaction. I agree with Pastor John. Going to a wedding and participating in the action and supporting it is a totally different thing. When you go to a restaurant and order food how do you know that the person making your food is not gay? Does that mean that you are supporting that person? No, it means you went to a restaurant and they provided a service to you. Business is what it is. Business. I love your videos but disagree here. God bless!
But, in the case where you know you are making a cake for an actual gay wedding, that is participating in the preparations to celebrate an unholy ceremony. Christian’s shouldn’t be participating in any aspect of this unholy celebration, the setup of it is included. I sent this video to my pastor, who is friends with Phil Johnson. I’m hoping he sends it to Phil and MacArthur does recant this statement. It is akin to what Alister said, and Alister was wrong, but then pressed down pridefully on it. Hopefully, MacArthur will respond in a godly way, and set a godly example for Alister. That is my hope and prayer.
@@Jesus_Saves_Sinners I disagree. They are paying for a service that you provide to the public. And everyone has a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. I'm just saying that I feel you aren't participating if they are paying you. If you do it for free as a favor then yes it is participating. It's saying I support what you are doing and I want to show my support. But as a business you have to serve all kinds of people you don't agree with. What,are you just going to serve christians? You can't ask that of everyone or you won't be in business long. God bless.
We are all sinners and we can make mistakes on this issue. So let's have grace, mercy and forgivness for Alistar and John for these comments on the subject. I believe it's not right or loving to show any support to same sex marriage, but any brother who gets this issue wrong and shows support we should still show mercy for we have all fallen short of Gods glory and we are not all perfect in all our ways.
You have a valid point! Bravo for your discernment!
Its one thing to go to a gay wedding and celebrate the union and a whole other thing to sell them a product. I don't like McArthur but i don't see anything wrong with this answer.
Exactly
Have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness, rather reprove them. Like John the Baptist reproved heroes wedding to his brothers wife. He didn’t go to the wedding neither did he bake them a cake!!
Both are forms of support and, by extension, encouragement. We are not called to condone sinful acts.
@@iThinkBiblically yes but is it sinful? That was the question???
I own a gift shop. As it happens, I have a gay customer. I believe in showing her love. If I refused to sell to her, I would turn her away from God for good. And if I refused to sell to anyone "of the darkness", then I would have to refuse the majority of people who walk in my shop...and how would i even know? Only God knows their lifestyle. I have, however, prayed over my shop and rebuked any darkness that might come in my shop. I pray frequently for each person who stands in front of my cash register. I pray they feel light when they walk through my doors. And I pray for opportunities to share the Gospel. I have had many opportunities in fact! I would have a lot less opportunities if I refused to sell to any of them. @@iThinkBiblically
Jesus fed the 5,000 which surely included followers and sinners alike. Accommodating the sinner isn't condoning the sin. Also, Jesus healed the sick and lame even while they were still sinners,
Jesus wouldn’t have baked a wedding cake for a gay wedding though. Lol
Is there a difference between having wedding cakes in a bakery shop... And a gay couple comes in and selects one from the shelf and making a cake for a gay wedding.....@@iThinkBiblically
He did turn water into wine at a sinner's wedding though.
@@iThinkBiblically
True... But if they come in to your shop and tell you that they want a cake from the display area for their wedding.... Then what.... I don't have the answers and not looking to just argue..... Does context matter....?.... If they just came in to the shop... Bought a wedding cake and left.... Is that different to them coming in and telling you they really want the cake in the display area for their wedding?..... @@OluS2023
So, do you think Jesus would make a cake in celebration of a gay wedding? I'm sure He would not.
Sometimes we can all make the mistake of not "qualifying our statements." Of course, if you have a cafe and do not know a person you are cooking food for is gay, that is something that is being done without prior knowledge of the persons sinful lifestyle. But, if you know that you are baking a cake for a gay marriage, that is prior knowledge of who you are baking the cake for, and baking a cake for an ungodly event, and that is sinful on the part of a baker.
Amen!
There`s a difference between feeding someone and affirming a sinful celebration..
Phil Johnson commented on this and it really clarified it. He put it on another sight called Mathew Mason. You have to scroll through to find it.
When waa this relaesed?
You really have to notice what MacArthur says and break it down he’s not endorsing it. The question is whether or not it is sin. For example, I work in HVAC and some of our customers are gay or just blatantly not saved, so am I just gonna sit in the truck and refuse to work Because they’re gay? Of course not have a responsibility to efficiently complete my work, not necessarily counting it at all but I like what MacArthur says because he specifically says the problem is when we are demanded to do these things and their consequences when our conscience is telling us to not do them, just like that one man, I forget his name, but he was fined, I think it was a family who was fined for not serving a homosexual couple at their bed-and-breakfast. If they’re conscience is telling them not to amen
Well said.
Sorry I'm confused was the question is it ok to sale cake to a gay couple or to make them a cake with 2 gay men on it?
The question was quite clear. Can a Christian who owns a business provide services to a gay wedding. The cake was an example. Can a Christian make a wedding cake for a gay wedding. The answer is “no”.