The Watcher in the Water & the Nameless Things of Moria | Tolkien Explained
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- They are among the most mysterious creatures in Tolkien's Middle-earth. The Watcher in the Water and the Nameless Things of Moria are glimpsed and mentioned in passages, and are even said to be unknown to Sauron. Likely a byproduct of the creation of the world, these creatures found refuge in the depths of Moria until one would escape to haunt the entrance to Khazad-dûm!
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A Nameless Thing - Anthony Pilon
Vast Passages - Freja Gelii
Watcher in the Water - Ulla Thynell
Watcher in the Water - John Howe
Gollum and Bilbo - Alan Lee
Cave Temple - Aetharius
Nameless Thing - Heather Hudson
Rippling from Beneath - Fantasy Flight
Mines of Moria part 2 - Moondoodles
Mines of Moria part 1 - Moondoodles
Moria Throne Room - Moondoodles
Ainulindale - Anna Kulisz
The Music of the Gods - Kip Rasmussen
Ainulindale, Discord of Melkor - Anna Kulisz
The Bargain with Ungoliant - Morkard
Tom Bombadil - Borja Pindado
The Watcher Concept Art - WETA
The Watcher in the Water - Olanda Fong
West-door of Moria - Lida Holubova
The Watcher - Anke Eissmann
The Fellowship Approaches Moria - Ted Nasmith
The Walls of Moria - Donato Giancola
Moria Gate - John Howe
Moria - Alan Lee
Watcher in the Water - John Howe
Watcher in the Water - Andrea Piparo
Watcher in the Water - Ulla Thynell
Gandalf in Moria - Donato Giancola
Watcher in the Water - Kingovrats
The Death of Isildur - Anke Eissmann
Mines of Moria - Gellihana
In the Chamber of Mazarbul - Tulikoura
Chamber of Mazarbul - Alan Lee
The West gate of Moria - Manofaction42
Book of Mazarbul - Sara Biddle
The Watcher in the Water - Joona Kujanen
Last Moments - Tulijoura
West-door of Moria - Lida Holubova
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Dagon - Andrea Guardino
#namelessthings #moria #tolkien - Zábava
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I don't agree with your assessment of the lake creating a connection to the waters where the Nameless Things dwell. Lakes don't dig.
I think we have to consider the possibility that Nameless things can reproduce. If they can reproduce, then perhaps an egg from a Nameless Thing managed to find it's way into mountain streams that drew it upward and eventually out from a spring that fed Sirannon River. While in the river, the baby Watcher could grow and grow until it is too big to hide in the river. Then it would seal off the flow of water and create a lake for itself to hide in. This makes the most sense to me. What say you?
Can't wait!!!
@@Enerdhil Acidic water will dissolve carbonate rocks creating caves and smaller voids, but not on the timescale from the lake being created to the arrival of the Fellowship.
Imagine Eru just like “yes I created the entire world” and Manwë pointing to Tom Bombadil saying “then what’s that” to which Eru replies “I have no idea he was already here when I came”
Manwë: What about this? (points at Ungoliant )
Eru: She was also here when I came .
lol. That would be funny! Although, I may have said it in a confusing way, I believe all is known to Eru. While the Ainur may be surprised by things, Eru knows all.
@@NerdoftheRings agreed, I’m fact I would be utterly shocked to discover that Eru did not know all.
@@NerdoftheRings says who? Eru says so, that's who.
Eru seems to screw up a lot, while being omniscient and all.
@@davis.fourohfour reminds me of other gods we know of :)
The spookiest thing to me is the Balrog realizing they fell into the nameless things territory and inmediately runs to the highest point... He knows.
“From the deepest depths, to the highest peak, I fought him - the Balrog of Morgoth !!” 🧙♂️ 🗡 💥
I think old balrogy of Morgothy realized that Gandalf had better stats than him, and didn’t want to lose his sweet bod.
@@meanolduncleeli904 I think they were evenly matched as they both died
@@faewatkins5869 they were both Maiyas. The Balrogs were of the same kind as Gandalf, Saruman and radigast the brown. Until they sided with morgorth.
@@trishabidesi8604 miyars and yes I know
The idea that Gandalf’s only hope down there was chasing the balrog itself is terrifying enough. Speaks volumes to the gravity of the eldritch horrors.
Personally I interpreted it as the Balrog simply being the enemy that Gandalf "knows". To me it says more about the alien nature of these entities rather than them being objectively more powerful or terrifying than the Balrog. Gandalf also could have been implying that the Balrog was Gandalf's only hope since he knew the tunnels "all too well", hence being the only "hope" for a way out.
@@antondavidovic3996 Great insight 👌
Well at the end of the day gandalf and balrog have the same origin...
@@antondavidovic3996 Yes, that's what I also thought, that Gandalf knew he would get lost in the tunnels and therefore had to follow the balrog to get out.
I think it is more Gandalf didn’t know how many nameless creatures were down there, they could be innumerable, plus Gandalf knew the threat the balrog posed to the free folk and so he was taking upon himself to deal with it.
As if Moria wasn’t scary enough with the balrog it has more ancient terrors. Nice to learn some about the watcher in the water though
Makes you wonder if the Dwarves would have encountered the Nameless things, had it not been for the Balrog.
and terrors that even the Balrog makes haste to escape from
I don't think that the nameless things was as strong as the Balrog from moria
@@FirstLast-gk6lg The Balrog wasn't escaping from them, he was escaping from Gandalf since he was losing the battle. It mentions that the Balrog knew those dark tunnels well, so it obviously didn't perceive the Nameless Things as a threat.
@@keithcole8536 I agree. The Balrog was a dangerous spell-casting spirit whereas the Nameless Things (from what we know so far) appear to only be large, physical beasts.
"In that despair, my enemy was my only hope." that speak volumes
But it could mean many things. Hope for a way out? Hope as in being the enemy he "knows"? Hope because a Balrog itself is a more cheerful sight than whatever the heck swims beneath the mountains? Hope as in him representing a goal for Gandalf instead of him becoming lost and depressed?
@@antondavidovic3996 Yes. . . the way out, only the Balrog could fathom that in the deep places. . . Gandalf would have strayed forever lost & he knew that and dreaded such a fate.
@@HeLpLOstGOdAny1 True. Also, Tolkien wrote that it might not have been the Dwarves that awoke the Balrog, rather that the Balrog sensed Sauron's malice in his growing power. So the Balrog was fast asleep as a log for millenia amongst the Nameless Things but it took the malice of Sauron which he sensed all the way from Dol-Guldur or Mordor(or wherever Sauron was at that point) to wake him up. This tells me that the power of the Nameless Things pales in comparison to the Ainur. Its also worthwhile to note that the Balrog would look at these Nameless Things as fodder since he was likely one of the Balrog(s?) that fought off Ungoliant.
Incredible.
I wonder if they ended up fighting side by side to survive down there.
I think that the most scary thing about the Nameless things is the mystery that surrounds them. The scariest thing are always those we know the least about.
That's the great thing about mystery, it terrifies us. Sauron we know and hw scares all the inhabitants of middle earth, but the fact that there are darker things deep in the earth that do not even answer to him is terrifying. Beings that none truly know what they are, and even fewer know their names. It's how we know so little about them that terrifies us, we fear sauron, but atleast he is an evil we know
Agreed.
Yet if Gandalf himself called a Balrog 'his only hope', whom the Fellowship as much as ourselves thought the worst of demons...well, there's a reason these things remain 'nameless'.
As much as I want to know more about them, yea, the mystery is what makes them so terrifying. Kind of like Lovecraft's works. When he wrote most of his stories there was no concrete lore to them, no real internal consistency between stories. When other authors used his work and constructed an actual pantheon and mythology it kind of ruined that mystery a bit.
You can see this nameless things deep down in moria in the lotr mmo verry strange creatures down there for sure
@@c.j.shotgunangel8905 I didn't even realize there was a LOTR MMO.
Love that Tolkien threw some Lovecraftian horror into his world. Just the thought of being that far underground is creepy enough for me. Add a huge abandoned mine/city, a Balrog, 10,000 goblins and timeless horrors in water underneath it all is just pure nightmare fuel.
With world-building like this, I have recently wondered if The Lord of the Rings could work well in the style of a “Soulsborne” video game (like Demon Souls, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne). For example, Moria could be one place you explore in a similar manner as Old Yharnam in Bloodborne. Then, once you reach the Bridge of Khazad-Dum and view a cutscene of the Balrog encounter, the caverns underneath Moria is unlocked as a new level.
But for now, you can only enter the level as Gandalf, on his journey to pursue Durin’s Bane to the highest peak. Along the way, you have to fight your way through more otherworldly enemies. As a new original boss creature, you can fight one of the “Nameless Things”, which behaves similarly to Ebrietas or the Dark Beast Paarl from Bloodborne. Finally, you would fight the Balrog in a similar manner as Vicar Lawrence in Bloodborne’s DLC.
Although they share themes, it seems likely that the authors, who were close in age, developed these ideas independently, as Lovecraft's works did not achieve their fame until after his death. It's possible that they were both inspired by the previous generation of writers in fantasy and horror, like Ambrose Bierce and Lord Dunsany.
Wouldn't this writing predate lovecraft?
@@emperorlelouch8515 actually there is evidence that he was directly inspired from reading lovecraft, he is an editor in some volumes of lovecrafts work and definitely read it
@@JoeMama-dy6op no
I wonder what horrors Gandalf saw in those mysterious tunnels, the fact he wouldn’t even talk about it shows the terrible experiences gandalf faced pursuing the balrog
When not one, but TWO Maiar, nerfed or not, decide the best idea is to NOPE out of there together, you know shit's whack down there
@@JohnPeacekeeper idk if they were running away from the deep, the balrog was running from Gandalf and Gandalf was perusing the balrog, they might be strong but not necessarily
@@joegardner5638 all im imaiging is eru popping up and playing yakety sax just to add to the chaos
With so few words, Tolkien let's the readers own imagination do the heavy lifting of the horrors that no one can name. I think when he describes the world be 'gnawed at' by these creatures, it's horrific - as if they are slowly devouring the earth from underneath until they consumer all foundation. And then to say that his only hope was to follow the Balrog - what horrors might be so great that Gandalf would rather keep at heel's length from a Balrog!
I don't think the nameless things were scarier than the Balrog, Gandalf followed the Balrog because it was his only hop of ever finding his way out.
Being immortal and lost forever in the deepest and darkest tunnels of the earth with no hope of finding a way out is certainly much scarier than death.
@@johan.ohgren I also read into it as the Balrog being the only "hope" for a way out.
@@johan.ohgren The fact that Gandalf didn't want to even speak much about them or their lairs implies that he was at least greatly unsettled by them, if not fearful.
@@TheMightyDM not necessarily, he might've just thought Frodo and company was better off not knowing to much of them. If they pose no immidiate danger building up anxciety is just not very wise or necessary.
@@johan.ohgren the tone of it on the book always struck me as him being at least unsettled by them. Like a really creepy looking fish or bug, that you know can't actually hurt you but it just looks...wrong. Gandalf is pretty powerful, so he might not fear them for being dangerous, but the way he talked about them made me think they at least creeped him out.
To add up to Hobbit's book part. When Tolkien is describing Gollums's lair, he said he lived on slimy rock in the middle of the lake. He had piece of wood/little boat(translation issue) and rows with big feet.
He said:" He would row but never trouble the water. He was careful."
Not full quote but you get the point. He knew the creatures were down there.
It makes me wonder if he didn't want to disturb whatever was below, or if he wanted to stay quiet and keep his cover when things came about
Originally, Gollum was supposed to be one of those things.
I love the idea of these bizzare and evil entities manifesting due to the dissonance in the musical themes. It suggests even Eru wouldn’t have been able to plan for them. So Bombadil perhaps manifested due to an unexpected moment of harmony?
It would explain why he was manifestly “good” but didn’t see the rest of the peoples of Middle Earths problems as his. He is separate from the concerns of the other beings of Arda.
Tom Bombadil is a jazz solo
@@undead_corsair "JUST PLAY THE RIGHT NOTES!" - Angela
I like the the image of Tom as a jazz beat made manifest, yet my mind can't ever truly shake Tom Bombadill as not being a jamaican rastafari dude who smokes well. He is unique, and he is my favorite.
that is an excellent theory. it also stands to reason that i havent heard it before, as very little focus is put on the nameless things.
Nothing is unaligned with the thoughts of Eru. He created Melkor knowing well what he would do.
The part I think gets me the most is the way Ori writes about the Watcher.... "The Watcher in the Water took Óin."
They never even saw what became of Óin, whether he was eaten or simply ripped to pieces. A tentacle wrapped around Óin's leg, he got pulled into the water and never returned. It took him.
Imagine if Durin’s Bane aka the Balrog of Moria never actually fled to Moria. Perhaps if the dwarves had kept digging ever deeper they may have eventually come face to face with those nameless things instead.
And set them loose to surface
It is said that in the coming ages the Dwarves continued to dig deeper and deeper until they eventually disappeared. Maybe they finally broke into the territory of the nameless things and they killed all of the Dwarves.
@@valentinkambushev4968 whoah 😳
@@valentinkambushev4968 Or, because, as Tolkien said, time is not counted there, they're still there, and simply have no idea how long they've been gone.
@@bergerdrum The dwarves are down there like minecraft players who've lost track of time while mining, they're going to decide it's time to come back to the surface anytime now and absolutely destroy the precious metal and gemstone markets.
I've always thought of the Nameless Things as some kind of rot that "eats" at the heart of Arda, working to undo its creation rather than shape it into something.
I thought so too. Not unlike Nidhogg of Norse myth, which Tolkien was obviously very familiar with.
This theory struck me the most. Almost how Ungoliant aimed to quell all the light and blot it out with pure darkness, these Nameless things eat at the very earth and destroy it from within. A disease with perhaps no cure
@@grantmulder9914 I read into them "gnawing at the Earth" simply as them making underground tunnels to swim through, but you could be right as well.
@@antondavidovic3996 that´s why I thought that when Peter Jackson introduced the Wereworms into the Hobbit trilogy, he was actually conveying about the Nameless Things than the legendary creatures even less-described in the Hobbit.
@@grantmulder9914 Ungoliant did not create or revel in darkness. Rather, she produced and spread an "unlight", something much more sinister and mysterious. Darkness is the absence of light, whereas whatever she created was something different altogether.
Often when Tolkien presents lore about Shelob he indicates that she is but one of a collection of older powers that dwell in middle earth all of who are very different in form but all extremely evil and diabolical of intent and owning no loyalty to anything known but to their own individual devices. Shelob is just one such entity. Love this vid it clears up for me many questions about how these beings were spawned out of the discord and so owe no allegiance and are beyond concepts of control as they hate everything equally. Love your content! Thank you for all you do!
Shellob is the last remaining spawn of Ungoliant, but she is mostly a huge dangerous-wild spider than inheriting something different on her own as her mother was. Aside of her origin, and well just part of her origin - as it seems his father, was pretty much a giant spider creature but well, just a large normal spider on its own, without any human-like intelligence as Ungoliant and Shellob retained, but not a big deal about her. Just an echo of the past on what Ungoliant actually was even more dreadfull - furtherly as it´s unknown the true fate of her (although in one side-story from an unused source it seems that Eaerendil once became the Star wielder of the Silmarill travelling throught sky in his ship, went into the farthest south where he killed her ending on her lasting doom, it kinda may have helped him she was actually so weaker and hungry before that she has started to devour anything even herself, which later became the simplistic final version of her doom in the later published Silmarillion, totally omiting on the deed of Earendil) - however on Shellob she actually goes into rather decisive heroic meeting with the hobbit Samwise Gamgee, where she is severely defeated though her last true end it´s unknown if she actually recovered herself and just resume her former activity with a bit less efficence as she got very dammaged from that meeting (which never ever happened before) or if she actually died then unknown to everyone on her demise there. (By the way, it´s unknown the source of the diggers of the tunnels which Shelob actually used for residence and hideout there, but may imply the same origin as the Nameless Things being elsewhere in Middle Earth several times in the past and later on always, but unnoticed until Gandalf´s discovery.)
0:46 This is one of my favorite passages in the entire Hobbit. I love how it hints at just how little we know about Tolkien's world; I don't have better words to describe its impact but I love it
What chapter is it
Chapter 5.@@twurlywurly6720
Tolkein's lorecraft at his finest. We are all so intrigued by the nameless things. Yet if they were given names, we would no longer be so curious. It's the catch-22 of fantasy world building.
And unlike so many modern mythologies, where absolutely everything must have an elaborate backstory and detailed explanation, Tolkien allows for mystery. Not every question needs to be answered. Heck, he never even confirms who in fact the Witch King was, which adds more to his mystique.
I love how you said that. It takes me to Conjuring 2, where Vera Farmiga slashes the name of the demon. And as soon as she know the name, she is no longer afraid of her and in fact defeats her.
Nah I don’t think so. We know the names and some info about Lovecrafts Old Ones and other horror creatures. It doesn’t make them less interesting or scary.
@@armygrunt13 all we know of the witch king was well, he was a king of men & he was of numenor.
nothing else is given, like who he once was, his place in society (where he ranked in numenors many houses and so on)
Tolkien's works are top notch fantasy & world building in general, the best stories are always interpretive ones.
@@Jack_Ss you’re entirely wrong. The whole point of lovecrafts cosmic horror is the fear of the unknown.
Gandalf chasing his prey through the depths of the earth and back up to the top of the world is so awesome. Made me appreciate the White Wizard so much more.
Sounds more like he was running after it since it knew the way. Presst pause on the fight to get the hell out
What I find the most interesting is that technically, on one of the mountains above Khazad-Dum there's a staircase that leads down to the bottom of the world. So basically anyone curious enough could find it and go down. Like, it's secret, but it's an accessible secret.
I think the caves eventually lead up to some point that connects back to Moria, which then leads to the staircase. If the endless stairs lead from the highest point all the way to the lowest point, then someone would have had to build them all the way down, which I don't think was the case.
There is a version in the History of Middle earth about nameless gods older than Melkor and the Valar. About this beings older than Sauron: There is the dreadful valley in beleriand named Nan Dungortheb where Beren, sorely pressed by Sauron's forces, crossed from north to South. A place where - quote "(...) horror and madness walked". Well, that is the same land identified (in the history of middle earth) as Nan Dungorthin - the land of the dark idols - populated by men that worshipped mysterious nameless deities - quote: "In Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadow secret, more old than Morgoth or the Ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded west". And like Gandalf said: "nameless thing older than Sauron". It's possible that this nameless things are products of Music of the Ainur: "(...) and the music and the echoe of the Music went out into the Void, and it was not void". Or, the Void before the creation was an another dimension filled with lovecraftian gods/monsters older than Ainur.
Creatures/deities existing outside of the valars knowledge and even preceeding them is a scary and interesting idea.
I always thought he was influenced by old Canaanite? (might have got the religion wrong but the religion before Judaism/Abrahamic religions) religions especially because he talks about human sacrifice as part of the worship. Even the name of the evil god in Abrahamic religions (that is just a god of a different religion from another region) could be seen as a reference to Melkor/Morgoth. The name of the evil god that is worshipped with human sacrifice in real life is Moloch. It has a lot of similarities to the books. Interesting to think about
@@theodorejenkins6066 i think that you are talking about God x Tehom (the Anti-god). According to both traditions before the creation all was water. The deep is personified as a terrible monster, which in the Babylonian version bears the name of "Tihamat," corresponding to the Hebrew "Tehom," used as the technical expression for the primæval ocean. The Hebrew word is employed without the article, like a proper name, thus indicating that in Israelite tradition also it stood originally for some mythological being.
I think that the Gnostics propose that the original creator god, called the "Pléroma" or "Bythós" (from the Greek, meaning "Deep") pre-existed Elohim, and gave rise to such later divinities and spirits by way of emanations, progressively more distant and removed from the original form.
In Mandaean cosmology, the Sea of Suf (or Sea of Sup) is a primordial sea in the World of Darkness.
Although its fun speculation and has a Lovecraftian aspect of it, the possibility of the Nameless Things predating the Ainur’s creations does not make any sense. It’s like trying to imply that there is an evil-version of Eru that made them when that isn’t the case as this is not a Gnostic influenced setting but a Catholic one.
@@funkyboy_22 Quote from the comments of Cristopher Tolkien about the primordial night/void before the creation: "MÓRU- GL IN A LATER ADDITION GIVES MURU A NAME OF THE PRIMEVAL NIGHT PERSONIFIED AS GWERLUM OR GUNGLIONT, HENCE MY READING IN THE TEXT MÓRU RATHER THAN MORN. AMONG THE ORIGINAL ENTRIES IN GL IS MÚRI, DARKNESS, NIGHT". And, what if Melkor was "corrupted" when he "walked" in the void before the music because of this primeval darkness? Well, this primordial being is older than Melkor and the Valar.
I read the books before the movies came out and subsequenyly watched the movies many times throughout my life. At some point, I became convinced that the watcher in the water was something that was added to the movies that was not in the book to add some excitement. Upon rereading I was surprised to find that I was wrong because it's one of those things that seems so out of place. I do love it though. It adds a layer of mystery to an otherwise well fleshed out world. Thanks for the video. Its great and adds a lot of interesting context.
I felt the same with the rock giants fighting in the Hobbit... like it was something out of place and forced into the movies, but no....
Tolkien said about tom bombadil that a good story needs details but also enigmas, things that could have an explanation but nothing is proven. Nameless are another one of those enigmas
@@CODINE80 Well, to be fair, it's not clear whether the rock giants in the book are real or if it's Bilbo's imagination running wild during the night.
I love this stuff. I wish there was more about the nameless things, but maybe not knowing is part of the fun.
I love Lord Of The Rings Online's interpretation of the Nameless Things. Absolutely terrifying, and an imaginative take on otherwise scant and vague (understandably so) mentions of these creatures.
Yeah they look like true Eldritch Horrors
Actually ran into that particular part of Moria for the first time this week. Was very intrigued and really felt like this was a place where rationality played no part in how these creatures acted or came to be.
The hint towards these creatures and nameless things beyond our character's understandings is one of the many ways Tolkien makes middle-earth feel so alive with history, as the characters cannot know everything, even Gandalf. Alt-Shift-X has made me understand this about GRR-Martin's Song of Ice and Fire world as well, that by hinting at dark creatures and places at the fringes of civilisation you can make your world feel so much larger and more alive with myth and mystery. Even in our modern real world we don't necesarily know what lies in the deepest caves, oceans, jungles, etc and we've mapped every inch of our planet unlike in Middle-Earth!
"as the characters cannot know everything"
Is Eru Ilúvatar a character?
The Greyjoy's water-based theology and deference to their Drowned God have overtly Lovecraftian undercurrents (pun intended).
@JJerem "Here be dragons"
They said something in the books about mount Caradhras. That it was something evil about him.
"Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands."― Gimli in The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Ring Goes South"
Not so much outright evil but having a serious case of "Get off my lawn!" syndrome
its interesting that the mountain is implied to have some sort of sentience
Didn’t Morgoth created this Mountain?
@@MountainFisher this was the connection! I remembered wrong! Thank you.
@@MountainFisher According to the LOTR wiki, The Misty Mountains were originally created by Melkor during the Years of The Trees, who wanted to make it difficult for Orome, who often rode across Middle Earth, hunting his fell beasts, to pass.
The "nameless" creatures of Tolkien's lore have always fascinated me especially. They just stoke the imagination so wonderfully!
seriously lovecraftian stuff.
The Watcher is by far my favourite creature in Lord of the Rings, simply because of its enigmatic background. We know next to nothing about it, and I think that alone makes it so much scarier
Everything about Moria reeks so strongly of The Mountains of Madness that I'm almost convinced Tolkien read Lovecraft at some point.
From a musical perspective, while there would e discordance between the two themes, there may also have been incidental harmonies as well. Maybe this accounts for Tom Bombadil and other non-evil unexplained beings?
I was thinking the same thing
I just assumed that Tom Bombadil was Eru incarnate. Like, when Goldberry answered “He is” in response to Frodo’s question about who Tom Bombadil is, it reminds me of Jehovah saying to Moses “I AM THAT I AM.” (Exodus 3:14)
Also, given how the elves call Tom Bombadil “Iarwain Ben-Adar” which means Oldest and Fatherless, that to me implies that Tom Bombadil was not created unlike the elves who could say that their Creator is their father in a way. It reminds me of how when Jesus answered the Pharisees by saying, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am!” (John 8:58)
Finally, given Tom Bombadil has the Rohirric name of Orald (meaning “very ancient”) and the Dwarvish name of Forn (meaning “[belonging to] ancient [days]”), it reminds me of how God is referred to as the “Ancient of Days” in Daniel 7:9 which says, “the Ancient of Days took His seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire”
My thoughts exactly! But I wonder if Eru can make mistakes?
@@mechadoggy While an interesting theory, Tolkien himself disproved it by saying that Eru was nowhere in Middle Earth. He watched from the Timeless Halls and was only ever accounted to have interfered a handful of times in the history of Arda.
@@mxu_medinx9709 With that argument, even if Eru was incarnated as Tom, he wouldnt have interfered knowingly coz he is an avatar in two bodies, the body with the knowledge and consciousness of history and his power would be in the 'timeless halls' while his other avatar would be roaming middle earth.. eg serving the purpose of bringing stability due to the dissonance created by Morgoth's songs
Poor Oin. The Watcher is definitely one of the most terrifying creatures in Middle Earth in my opinion.
When Tolkien describes Ungoliant and she goes to Tar-Nu-Fuin he says that she breed with some creatures like her and after devoured them, and fater that the great spiders like Shelob were borned.
When Shelob goes to Mordor Tolkien describes similar with some “creatures” of same nature of Shelob, she breeded, devoured them and after the spiders of Mirkwood appear.
I bealive these “creatures” Ungoliant and Shelob met are also some kind of the Nameless things.
Just the thought that a demon like the Balrog and an Angel like Gandalf can be completely terrified of the Nameless Things is so interesting
I don’t they weren’t entirely scared their full powers would have driven them off
I wonder if the Balrog had encountered any difficulty dealing with the Nameless things since they live in the same depths.
I always wanted to know more about the Watcher, but since i never saw any videos about him anywhere i guessed there wasn't enough info about him to be interesting. Gladni was wrong !
Cheers from Brazil, hope anyone reading this will have a great day
Made my morning tea sitting on my lazy chair and watching your uploads Saturday mornings is my new routine. Very relaxing 😌
Sounds like a great routine to me! :)
Funny thing is that I live in Greece and it's almost evening
I can imagine a dark souls-like game set in Middle-earth where you play as some powerful elf, maybe a Vanyar, exploring these dark tunnels to fight endless things, vanquishing them with light. Would be quite the advanture, you start in Moria fighting goblins, then they get weirder and better adapted to the darkness the deeper you go, facing trolls along the way until you finally reach the tunnels no dwarf has carved.
In a perfect world they would partner with FromSoftware to create such a game, especially since the game director already is a big fan of Tolkien.
I'd kill for a game like this
It be really cool if they kept you guessing. Say you're going along a trail carved into a wall, and out in the darkness next to you, you can just see something move. Here it slither around. Maybe above you. Maybe below. But it watches you constantly.
The Watcher In The Water being one of the Nameless Things makes a lot of sense.
Yeah that water must reach pretty far down into the ground
Probably one of the lesser ones that swim about more while the greater ones are deeper and still sleeping.
I love the mysterious, Lovecraftian nature of The Watcher and other "Nameless Things" in Tolkien's work. I've also always been of the opinion that Ungoliant was one of these type of creatures.
I believe that all the nameless things look different from one another that non look alike, but they all carry the same cloak of darkness and evil.
This all sounds very, very Lovecraftian to me! In a few of his works, Lovecraft speaks about nameless, unknown horrors that dwell the depths of the earth.
“Great holes secretly are digged where earth’s pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl.”
The first 3 minutes of this video could be the most interesting thing I've heard in my life.
Thank you for your work. It helps me a lot with my english listening every single day. You're one of my favorites and probably the best one.
There are so many things in Tolkien's creation that are merely touched upon, that could have been a story, or countless stories on their own. It's awesome!
The fact that even the father of modern fantasy was inspired by Lovecraft is a solid statement of the latter ones work. Those Cthulhu Star spawns are literally everywhere
Fun fact:
In the GameCube game “the lord of the rings: the third age” the watcher reappears. However, the characters in that game use it to break open the sealed gate of Moria which is ironically the exact opposite of what it does in the book and movie.
That's why LotRO is such an amazing game - without the Moria Expansion I would've never known about the nameless things and the incredibly depths of Moria!
I always loved how Tolkien, from time to time, dropped references to other ages and included minor appearances of poorly understood beings, hinting to Arda being a big world filled with mysteries both beautiful and foul.
I definitely agree with the theory that the nameless things are a byproduct of the discord of Melkor. That accounts for how they could be older than Sauron (or at least older than his physical incarnation in Arda). As for what they looked like, I love their depiction in The Lord of the Rings Online where they're faceless, tentacled, Lovecraftian horrors. I still remember getting to the Foundations of Stone in the game's version of Moria and freaking out when I saw one of them. I think my words were along the lines of "Gah! What the hell is that?!"
3:24 In Ralph Bakshi's LOTR animated, he made it seem like the watcher in the water was a guardian of the secret entrance to Moria.When the fellowship entered the tunnel fleeing it it slammed the door shut behind them. In Jackson's version, he gave us the impression that if there wasn't a cave in at the entrance the watcher in the water would have pursued the fellowship into the tunnel. I have to go check out how it was done in the book because it's been so long since I read it.
In the book, the doors are merely slammed shut by the watcher, not destroyed like in PJ's version.
@@NerdoftheRings Thanks. So Baskhi was more faithful to the original in that part than Jackson.
@@NerdoftheRings Ugh I should have waited at 4:56 you gave the book version. I keep doing that jumping the gun before I watch any entire video.
@@NerdoftheRings My understanding is that the doors were buried by a landslide the Watcher caused by uprooting the trees. Therefore, it is likely that a party of dwarves came to the doors from the west in the 4th Age and removed the dam and colluvium (landslide debris) so the doors would function again.
I remember reading that in the coming ages that the dwarfs dwindled and dug deeper in their mountains and how they disappeared. I like to think the nameless things were the ones who wiped out the dwarves.
@JJerem that's not what happened to the dwemer lol
@JJerem no, the dwemmer made some kind of weird device that teleported them to another plane, or something weird like that didn't they? I thought they LITERALLY vanished.
@@skeletorgames8641 They continued delving deep into the mountains, but their population slowly died out of other reasons, gandalf and the balrog did fall for quite a long while before falling into the water below the eastern rift on which the bridge of Khazad dum spans over
It's because the dwarf women were often mistaken for dwarf men, Gimli said so.
I appreciate your style of narrating. Some other channels that dive deep into Middle Earth lore have amazing videos as well, but they can get confusing for me sometimes. With this channel is can easily follow what you're telling, so I gain a lot more out of it. Currently listening to the audiobook of The Children of Hurim, narrated by Christopher Lee. Amazing story. With this channel, the lore and history becomes easy to understand, which enhances my enjoyment of Tolkien’s LOTR and such. So in short, thank you!
That's really cool that it's the Balrog that is unwittingly Gandalf's salvation. To see this entire battle from start to finish would be amazing.
Fascinating, nice lore, nice voice, really decent voice acting, you've earned an instant-sub
I must have the gift of foresight lmao. I literally rewatched The Fellowship of the Ring on like Thursday and when it got to the part outside of Moria i thought , hmmm… wonder if Nerd of the Rings ever did a video on the squid thing. What a coincidence 😂😂😂
It's amazing how the work of one man has everything in it, lighthearted fantasy ? Yes, epic high fantasy ? Yes, rich history and mythology ? Yes, theology ? Yes, cosmic horror years before Lovecraft ? Yes
It's just crazy
Food for thought: perhaps both Tolkien and Lovecraft tapped into the same source in this area. Lovecraft was just more "swayed" to flush it out (no pun intended).
And what a beautiful blend: Tolkien's rich / structured world vs The cosmic horror and chaos of an uncaring forces that could wipe out humanity in an instant.
Was this years before Lovecraft? I think Lovecraft work came first
Lovecraft preceded Tolkien.
I love how clearly this is a major inspiration for both the Underdark and the Far Realm in D&D
Random info but I finally convinced my mom to read LOTR and she just got to Gandalf’s fall at the bridge and she said she cried when Gandalf died. She’s never seen the movies so she has no idea he comes back but it’s cool seeing these characters influence people even today.
Now this is the topic I want to be discussed. Always curious about the Watcher's origins. Great content!
So I wonder if any of the Nameless things were in Gollum's cave. They live in the water, and live in the depths of mountains. Gollum's cave is in the depths of the misty mountains and has a huge lake. If they were there then Gollum is lucky they never attacked him since he is "too clever a waterman" as Aragorn said. 💯
Some of these broader stories are so fascinating to me, you read so much material and pulled it all together mentally to present these fresh perspectives. I could imagine a studio throwing money at a project where you tell this story again but with a cohesive visual live-action+sfx presentation.
what a fantastic channel!! Have been binge-watching your videos and learning a lot, thank you!
The nameless things gnawing at the world reminds me of Nidhogg gnawing at the worldtree and he kinda fits since he'd be older than Sauron as well.
Yes! I have always been super interested in the Watcher in the water and those other Lovecraftian creatures there, thank you for this video so much :D
This was a great insight into the shadow refuge from Lord of the rings online. Always wondered why those existed and where they came from. Thank you.
I feel as though a horror movie about the dwarves failed reclamation of Moria would be really cool. Or even better, the first installment can be how they lost it in the first place, and Balin’s expedition the sequel.
That would be so cool! Frankly, anything Middle Earth related would be a cool movie haha
I have always been fascinated by these shadows that cling to the edges of Tolkien's work, and I'm glad that he only have us a few hints as to their true nature.
Reminds me of the Black Gulch from Dark Souls 2! And those creepy giant Insect things that burrowed into the cliff face and smash out trying to push you off the cliff into the darkness below....there's 2 hidden Giants you can fight in the Black Gulch as well!
And the boss, a giant butcher made of human corpses stuck together.
@@skeletorgames8641 I felt sorry for that one (the Rotten, I believe?). It looked like it was trying to create things but just couldn't.
Thank you so much for this video. This has always been one of my favorite mysteries in Middle earth.
Excellent content and narration man. Love what your doing. Can't get enough of Middle Earth.
imagine a Balrog, one of the creatures of Morgoth himself feel fear in the midst of the nameless things. how can such a dark creature feel fear, when fear and hate is what fueled it's existance?
*I fear not the things that are known, if even only a little knowledge can be found. what i DO fear is not the things that are unknown to me alone, but to those that know more than even i do.*
Well, Morgoth himself felt fear a lot, so his "spawn" might have that trait to some extent too.
@@skeletorgames8641 Morgoth was the **only** valar to feel fear and as he was in a war I don't think his creations would feel his weakness, even the dragons such as smaug never felt fear, its not written in the books and the other dragons like glaurung and ancalagon went along smashing into armies with no fear, the balrogs would normally be at the frontlines when morgoth attacked, so I don't think it's possible unless Durin's bane felt fear after living with the nameless things for so long
Geeze, these things always give me the shivers, gotta say that there was a horror-side to Tolkien's magnificent writing and the Nameless Things is just one perfect example of that. As to the Watcher, it always creeped me out, ugh hate that thing and yet at the same time I love that chapter, as I love horror.
Finally! I waited a lot for you to post a video about he nameless things
But as always an amazing video full of quality and your unique touch Matt!!
Wow. The "deep places of the world" are filled with such ancient, primordial terrors that Gandalf's only hope of survival was to keep close to his enemy. And then you realize that his enemy, a Balrog, a "demon of the ancient world" is terrified of the nameless things himself. That's insane.
I wonder if in the deep tunnels, among the nameless things, the balrog was hunter or prey.
It does say the balrog was pretty keen to get out of those areas. Hmm
he was probably the equivalent of a bear in a forest filled with nothing but wolves, powerful but greatly outnumbered
@@donutlovingwerewolf8837 : Or perhaps a bear in waters filled with sharks.
The Balrog might be able to hold its own since its a maia, but the nameless things far outnumber the balrog so I don't think it stands much of a chance against a group of nameless things
@@absalomdraconisif the nameless things are diverse instead of one species, then its both wolves and sharks oh and eagles
Man, this gave me chills. Phenomenal video, good sir.
Great timing, I just read this part of the fellowship and was wondering more about the sea creature!
It’s honestly unreasonable the joy that “… and Debbie” brings me
I always get a kick out of it...Im sure others do too...imagine the day her name is Jason the wrong order...people will OCD about it
What made the Balrog so terrifying for me was both the fact the orcs ran away from it and that Gandalf was afraid to even go into Moria knowing it was there. So the fact that the nameless things have THE BALROG running away makes me a thousand times for terrified of them!
The Balrog wasn't running from them but from Gandalf as they had been fighting for days. Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria were both Maia and were each other's biggest threat at that moment. The Balrog especially was what could be explained as weakened as it's fire was out and it had fallen into the same water as Gandalf. It seems to regain strength when emerging from Durin's Tower before it is thrown down.
Dude, I was wondering about this theme yesterday. This video came right in time!
This was especially entertaining Matt. The music created a perfect ambience of ominous mystery.
I’m listening to your videos to help me sleep. Your voice is calming.
Nienna would approve.
I do the same.
I'd love to hear audiobooks read by you, you've really got the canter and rhythm for it! Excellent episode!
I will always respect Tolkien for creating his own timeless eldritch abominations within his mythology rather than just aping or even just outright referencing the Cthulu Mythos.
That's probably not something he was tempted to do anyway, but I feel like so many writers nowadays that want to add some sort of cosmic or existential horror elements just rip things straight from Lovecraft and I always hate it when they do. The Elder Scrolls, the fallout universe, and even Game of Thrones' expanded lore for example all practically have Cthulu as canon in their universes rather than just having spooky dark mysteries of their own in some places.
I guess I just wish we had more mysterious Nameless Things instead of seeing the Great Old Ones again and again.
Yes I think that's more of a modern thing, it has become a bit of an eye-roller.
I adore these world building elements. It creates so much mystery
I adore the mystery of the nameless things. It feels very lovecraftian and I wish we could have had more glimpses into just what kinds of things lived down so deep. Very cool!
You should do a video about the complete travels of the one ring
Well... That was horrifying...
Awesome video!
Your narration is really incredible, thanks
Love the artwork with the narration. Awesome stuff.
Glad you did this. Been wondering about those evil bastards for a while
You’re always conveniently on time with my Saturday morning run. Thank you
Your channel is so cool (: really gets me thinking about middle-earth in a lot of ways I never thought I would
4:39 I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the Watcher has succeeded in taking Frodo. What would the world have looked like then, with the Ring in the hands (so to speak) of a Nameless Thing?
That's a scary thought
If I well remember, NOTR made a video of what would have happened if Gandalf never decided to fight against Smaug... in that case Bilbo would not have taken the ring.
I believe in your case the situation would be similar, you could check that video
Cthulhu ... . . . ?
An old primal evil would awaken I'd imagine.
The creature would become like gollum and it would name its precious ring by another name than precious though I'm sure.
This was dope. Love that Tolkien left mystery and unknown things in Middle Earth. He himself talked about them as if HE didn’t know about them. Masterful world-building that seems like a lost art nowadays 🙌🏾
This is the exact video I’ve been waiting for
The video I’ve been waiting for!!
Do you think, even Balrog was scared or was at least wary to not stay too long near the very foundations of the stone and ran back to known places like the eternal stairs?
Exactly what I thought! Seemed like he'd rather not fight there or atleast retreat to safer ground
One of the best pieces of advice I've ever received in regards to world building was the importance of leaving corners of your world unmapped and uncharted. Not only does it relieve you of having to fill in every single corner of your fictional setting but also gives the reader the opportunity to fill in those gaps with their own imagination, making your world feel even larger then it actually is, as though there's always something new to explore and discover beyond the horizons. And to me the inclusion of the Nameless Things was one of the many ways Tolkien did just that. It would have been easy for him to tie all of Middle Earth and Arda back to Eru, with him alone being the source of all creation. But by adding exceptions to that rule, strange anomalies and unexplainable entities, he challenges us to question that idea: what if there are things out there beyond Arda, or even Eru himself? Things that simply don't fit within the grand tales of good and evil, heroes and dark lords? Things that are simply nameless.
Every time you upload a new video, I get treated with so many beautiful Lotr artworks I've never seen before.
So excited about this video as a kid i was fascinated by the creatures