I have NOT had a stable Linux experience
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Linus desperately trying not to say "I know it's the right password because I use this password for everything!"
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I'm pretty sure he's saying "Shit I shouldn't have told this story" in his mind. Now everyone knows he use the same password XD
If its just as device lock and not for web accounts it's not really an issue
not to be a linus chill, but using a a password manager and having a standard password, ESPECIALLY for device logins, is pretty standard and ok.
The password thing might have been this: keyboard layout changed somewhere in between when specifying the password during install and first login. Has happened to me many times.
i really love how Linus and Luke are sharing their first experience with Linux, with their platform they can shed some light in small issues that pile up over time for new/average users that devs can hopefully notice it and address it in more user friendly distros like Pop_OS
Luke isn't having his first experience. He's used Linux before, years ago but still.
The way I see it, Luke is the control whereas Linus is the test subject.
I am a Pop!OS user, and I converted many users lately, and the experience is a lot different... Manjaro and KDE are not beginner friendly. They have their strenghts, but useability for new users is not one of them...
@@ElmerGLue the Linux scene is fascinating because at this point you have a large body of Linux-aware people, a small body of Linux users, and then the actual community of Linux developers.
In the first two groups, there tends to persist this perception of and conversation around Linux that treats it like another commercial operating system. Particularly in taking the perspective that 'Linux' (as if it's some monolithic enterprise) is dropping the ball on the features that their customers need.
Except Linux isn't an entity, and it (largely, we're not talking enterprise) doesn't sell a product.
It's an amalgam of tools made with the occasional corporate funding or other sponsorship, but primarily for nothing at all by a small group of people who make parts of the Linux ecosystem *because they want to have Linux*.
With a Windows or a Mac OS there's a very straightforward "we sell this to people, our interest is making it in the way the consumer wants because the thing that keeps development going is the money from satisfied customers" relationship.
It's a strange situation with Linux, because that's not at all the relationship to potential users. The people who build the various components of a Linux system aren't getting anything out of the user base of average desktop users except maybe a feeling of prestige for having a lot of people using what they wrote. Development of Linux (from the perspective of a home user) continues only because *people want to make it*.
Linux systems 100% have bugs and issues and inconsistencies. But I can't help but wonder who people think they're addressing when they talk about the things Linux 'needs' to do. With windows, the company is trying to sell you on the product that the company builds and their interests are in alignment. With Linux, it's the random gaggle of Linux users who are trying to sell you on the product that a different random group of people make basically for fun and there's zero alignment there. It's an open loop.
@@pieceofschmidtgamer I would argue that Linus' use case really does have his choices cut out for him if not mistaken he's sporting probably high end hardware short of RTX Titan (RTX 3080?) perhaps? And probably i9? While Luke has a more "pedestrian" hardware
@@edwardtan1354 luke is running a Ryzen 9 5950x and a 2080TI, that’s not very pedestrian.
"You shouldn't want to do that" is my new favorite phrase and I plan on using it every chance I get.
You shouldn’t want to do that.
I have a feeling I will be telling my kids that often.
Stackoverflow be like
Finally becoming a true linux fan
Is ironic, because the whole point of using linux is to do things that are not allowed in windows, I also want live wallpapers, I know they are available, but there is not the ease of use that is the program that is on steam to do that, because it has available wallpapers from the community, I want the wallpaper but I don't want to create it, I want to use it.
"I thought this was a finished product!".. I truly hope that was a gut punch to the "just use command line" community. The only reason I was excited about Linus using Linux was because I wanted a normal user to experience and publicize the issues that plague Linux and get dismissed by the power users who think if a bug can be worked around then it's not a bug.
haha. i loved that line too. the thought frequently occurs to me when using Linux. i think it's great that he's publicizing the issues
Haha exactly.. Linux is aweful for the average desktop user... It's a good hobbiest OS and server OS.. otherwise stay well away.. and I say this after using Linux on and off since 1999 and being competent using Arch with only i3wm tiling window manager along with mostly using only CLI apps like Mutt, ranger, moc etc
I agree. The Linux community has way too many people obsessing over the techiest, least stable, least user friendly stuff, such as KDE and Arch and KDE apps, which are unstable, cluttered and ugly messes. And not enough people obsessing over the aesthetic and easy to use projects, such as GNOME and all of the GTK-apps. The hobbyist Linux community actively laughs at GNOME despite it being by far the best environment, which is also confirmed by it literally being used by SUSE Linux for Enterprise as the ONLY desktop environment. As well as the Ubuntu desktop, Zorin OS, Pop OS and all other user friendlier distros.
In short what I was trying to say is: Linux is FULL of snobby elitism and "design by engineers" (aka bad design) which keeps it from ever being mainstream.
"If you don't use KDE, you're not cool."
"If you don't use Arch and KDE, you're not cool."
If you don't use a custom window manager, you're not cool.
If you don't compile it all yourself, you're not cool.
Etc.
The nerdfight never ends. The Linux world is full of socially awkward people who try to find self worth in using the most COMPLICATED versions of Linux, and then laughing at everybody else.
This is the core of why Linux on the desktop is so unhealthy and slow to move forward to mainstream appeal.
When a user has to jump through hoops, it's not user friendly. It's that simple.
I have much love for Linux but it seems that the community can be delusional at times as to what the standard user expects from the operating system.
It's amazing though that distros are becoming more and more user friendly as the years go on. I love Mint and PopOS!
You're 100x correct. What I don't understand is Linus choosing Manjaro and KDE out of the gate. I figured he was a PopOS guy or at least Ubuntu. In it's default form I don't like Ubuntu, but after installing gnome-session and switching to a vanilla GNOME DE brings it to life. 1000x I would have recommended *buntu, mint or PopOS for a new to linux user. In either case it's an awesome challenge / series they're working on.
linux is so easy, all you need to do is pseudo hfdjshfdsjk fhsdkj hj. no im lazy, let me click and icon. :P and all the names of stuff is stupid. oh i need to adjust a setting let me load up squidgebo
It's not unreasonable for Linux to have different fundamentals from Windows and it's silly to expect approaching Linux as if it is identical to Windows to work out. Linus needs to actually put the time in to learn wtf he's doing before badmouthing it, the same as a reviewer should know wtf they're doing with WIndows before they review it.
They should have a way better methodology for how big of a stink they're making about this trial.
Edit: The people whining about me being a 'fanboy' are completely failing to even attempt to process what I'm saying here. The people comparing using an OS to using a car's interface are morons.
Hey, Linux is user-friendly! It's just very particular about who its friends are.
And that is a joke so old it literally predates Linux.
I have had very few non-user made issues with mint. Mint is so user friendly;
"Use the command line" is a thing I do everyday, the command line working is no excuse for a DE not having the capability to take that command and map it to a click-and-drag event.
by definition its why the DE exists.
It is just PEBKAC. It works.
@@hb9145 If it does it does, I don't really use DE's in general. WSL2 and ssh get me to my linux boxes and I don't really care about linux wanting to pretend to be windows
you probably ignore what question Linus want to answer. "Linux is great and it is for EVERYONE."
@@zuminlair92cp I agree on the question and it's great to try to answer that, unfortunately i don't think the answer he give there answer that exact question. I think he fall into the same trap most people fall into when changing systems (let alone linux it's the same for people transitioning from windows to macos and vis versa) that is to confuse "it's not how i'm used to" with "it's complicated". Changing habits is indeed complicated even when it's changing for something simpler. I strongly recommend reading "the design of everyday things" from D. Norman, he explain all this far better than i would and with scientific evidence behind.
Yeah, really. I'm a Power User usually, not shy from using command prompt when I have to. But.. I have years of experience with Windows and DOS before that. I've tried Linux many times and usually what makes me go back is those times I just wanna use my PC and not have to fight it or lookup crap in to do in the terminal.
It's exhausting when you're not familiar with stuff. Small annoying things add up and drive you mad.
I switched to Linux after a life time of using windows. It's only been about 3.5 months, and I don't ever see myself going back. The thing is I went into it with the mindset of "ok this new thing is going to be completely different than what I've known my whole life, and I'm going to treat it like a digital puzzle to solve".
The normal user doesn't want to do this. They want to install it, and be able to hit the ground running. As much as I now realize the learning curve wasn't anywhere NEAR as bad as I thought it would be, there are still things you will be hit with right away that (as a windows user) are NOT intuitive. That's all there is to it.
The motto "it just works" while mostly true, needs to be altered to "It just works, provided you have some understanding of how it works beforehand". And this is the crux of the issue. If you want people who spent a lifetime on windows, to make the decision to switch to an entirely new operating system than that which they've used their entire lives, then it needs to be able to function in all the ways they would 'expect' it to.
I'm not asking to take ANYTHING away as far as how classic linux users are used to, like being able to use a terminal for everything. I'm asking for just a little bit MORE consideration to the people that have done it a certain way their entire lives. The zip program drag and drop from one window to another is completely valid. Now you CAN absolutely do that, but it depends on which distro you decided to pick. That's a problem. There is no good excuse as to why EVERY single zip program doesn't allow this most basic of functionality.
Someone might pick a distro, and love it, only to find out they can't just drag and drop a simple file from a zip into a folder. You might say "get another zip manager", but that's not the best solution, and it leaves the new user with the mindset of "this new operating system can't even handle a simple concept like dragging and dropping files, this feels completely unfinished and held together with string and scotch tape." And that's a completely fair thought to a new user.
TL;DR While I'm still new to Linux and wont be going back, there's no excuse for not making certain functions more intuitive for a life-time Windows users.
No excuse needed. Linux is made for Linux users (and largely by Linux users). Their aim is to make their experience and workflow better, *not* to attract Windows users who are set in their ways. If you want to move to Linux, you should be doing so because you want what Linux offers, not just because you don't like Bill Gates.
I prefer to unzip from the command line anyway.
@@chaos.corner I think not liking Bill Gates is a perfect reason to want to switch to Linux. That's more or less why I switched.
@@chaos.corner that's such a stupid argument
@@chaos.corner That was some hilarious gatekeeping on your part 🤣
@@ejikenwaeze5979 Chill dude
"You shouldn't want to do that" is even worse than what often happens on any kind of forum where questions are asked: "Why do you want to do that?" or the evergreen variants of "You haven't asked the question in the right way".
Getting "Why would you want to do that?" on forums is so annoying.
to be fair i would have agreed but you can make one counter argument to the few examples quoted by linus: those directories under root permissions were likely directories that are expected by the distro to be managed by the package manager, both in the case of java and the obs plugins stuff, and there may be side effects to copying things around manually, namely if you ever have conflicts.
in both cases, there was also certainly a way to do it locally for their user instead of system-wide.
though, yes, the lack of such a feature in dolphin is annoying (though i have not noticed it personally), and it is far from the only software that makes it a pain in the ass to interact with files with permissions other than your users'.
"I don't have an answer therefore question is invalid."
@@asuasuasu Great deflection. Blame the user for *probably* roing something the system does not like.
No.
Stop.
Barring wild stuff like melting the kernel, the system should not decide to suddenly behave differently because it thinks it knows better than the user what the user wants.
@@lesath7883 i acknowledged the issue in dolphin as an annoyance, and that is even regardless of the specific issue at hand. it should be fixed, obviously, since there are objectively legitimate reasons to manipulate stuff that is root's.
my only point is that manipulating directories that is the package manager's responsibility should be avoided *ideally*. sure, in the instances mentioned by linus, it's mostly bad form and not something that will break the system.
but being carefree with copying around stuff, or `make install`ing things can do bad things.
"newbie power users" should be aware of that and a post in a thread like the one linus mentioned is not a bad place.
of course, unless said post is a condescending answer from some asshole who gets offended when faced with any criticism of their daily driver software.
that was not the intent of my answer nor was it phrased like that.
It's profoundly ironic to have the Linux community saying such an appleish thing as "you shouldn't want that"
*parts of the linux community that need to touch grass
The majority of the linux community scorn them even more than you. considering the exact reason why you said it's ironic.
Windows is starter friendly linux gives more freedom with 0 protection. Thankfully you can pick and choose what's best for you, no need to indulge on stupid internet fights.
@@PanosPitsiit's not really "zero protection", it warns you about potentially system-breaking actions
But yeah, it's not really doing anything if you're the type of person to type "yes" to every prompt
@@justacat3639 0 protection from your own actions, some people (Linus) would literally rm rf their desktop env if they saw a 2013 outdated article with an embedded script. To be fair these types of people would download compiled executables from sketchy sites, but still windows with an antivirus is pretty much idiot proof. Corpos can also block access to most websites so it’s practically impossible for employees to break the system. The moment an idiot opens a Linux terminal however things will go south in seconds.
I know what the password one is.
IIRC, Limus said he's using Manjaro. On Arch and Manjaro, the default configutation is that if you type your password wrong three times in a row, there's a ten-minute lockout period where you cannot type your password again. Just, no matter what you type, the system won't accept it. The problem is, some login prompts *don't tell you that.* This is actually a case of a distro doing something dumb.
Yep. Manjaro was a poor choice and Linus is giving a misleading impression to millions of people because of it. How hard would it have been for one of them to just use Ubuntu? Or make it a 3 way showdown
@@clark523 yeah, I think they should have gotten a beginner friendly distro. Especially if they want to use GUI for everything. On the other hand I can understand them, because something was leading them to choose manjaro. Gatekeeping is also a problem in the linux user base. There are often just CLI snippets and a reference to a big big documentation when two sentences would be enough to explain the thing. Now, as a more experienced user, I am good with the way it is. I like my terminal and my self written tweaks. There are too many points of view man :D
@@clark523 Honestly, Linus does so much gaming that Ubuntu would have been an issue. That's why Manjaro is a common rec for newbies who care about games despite it being an objectively poor choice in many other respects.
Now, to Arch's credit (and I say to arch's credit because this happened upstream of Manjaro), all of the stuff with the password is documented. And so when I went to go look at the wiki for information about my weird password problem (the seasoned Arch user's first recourse), it was all there in black and white. That's good, but the *problem* is that such an obtuse and unintuitive setup should never have been the default to begin with.
@@clark523 I thought the point of this whole thing was to be 'as normal, but tech savvy consumers' switching to Linux. Saying "uh but you chose the wrong distro" is not really useful commentary, because a normal user isn't necessarily going to have someone to tell them "don't use x", and that kind of gate-keepy "you made the wrong choice two months ago" attitude is yet another thing that contributes to people not wanting to use Linux.
@@JosephF. He did make the wrong choice though. There are several distros that are extremely popular with paid developers and funding and somehow idiots told linus about the halfwit bastard of crunchbang that is Manjaro. A distro with no funding and a reputation that while obviously bad should be way worse
Also, I agree with Linus, when Luke says "could have just done it through command line bro" and Linus just says "No". Something like that should be click and drag, period. That's Manjaro and related packages just straight up failing their userbase.
god avatar from WoW XD
@@mss2981 it's bloodlust from Warcraft 3
@@mss2981 rekt
I also agree with your point. I'm running Linux Mint 18.3, as I post this, and I tried the ZIP file, single file extraction thing and it actually worked as Linus thought it would! I opened a ZIP file, I found the single file I wanted to extract, and simply drug it to the desktop and BAM, it was there. I had never done that before. lol Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree that "using the command line" shouldn't be the answer for everything. Each time I hear that, I cringe.
Not necessarily. Packages are designed and optimized for their userbase. If the people who use them want sophisticated UX features and say as much in support tickets, they'll get it. If they'd rather the devs focus more on efficiency or on some other aspect, that's what will happen. They're not 'failing their userbase', if anything they're religiously giving their users exactly what they want.
Also, remember that most linux distros are, for the most part, maintained by volunteers. It's not all that surprising that their UX is not as polished as a Mac/Windows environment.
"Everybody use linux, Android is linux!"
Me, Android user for decades, never typed a command line: Yea, that's not the same thing
Its based on linux, you can still get into a command line on android via some tools, one from the top of my head is termius.
Embedded devices are a very special hell when it comes to linux...
* shivers *
I use the Android terminal a lot. A phone does not usually do that much so it is hidden by default.
@@nofate0007 that's why its hidden, because 99,99% android user doesnt even know android can do that or necessarily use terminal
Because Android user != PC user,
How many people code on android? Or even use it for actual work? Do you ever go into an office and see people connecting android boxes to monitors and use it as a PC?
"you could just use the command line bro!" the face Linus makes after hearing it make is priceless hahahahahahah
I was listening to it in the background and I could see his face XD
6:19
And it is the same face every non-fanboy makes when linux fanboys use it to deflect criticism.
I don't use GUI
@@egdirkcolthank you, you are a lifesaver and deserve more praise than idiots who quote without referencing where in the video it came from
UX litmus test: Imagine providing tech support to your grandma over the phone. Can you help her complete the task using only your voice and memory? If not, it's bad UX.
Ctrl-alt-t, and then typing in words
So does this mean cli is the best UX? Because I can tell granny exactly what to type, letter by letter.
@@herbertwestiron assuming Granny can type and can hear you perfectly
@@Marshallchandra Pretty good logical fallacy you got there we ARE assuming that she can hear because the litmus test had the condition that we are doing it over the phone. Your second point is completely wrong. Granny isn't being asked to touch type so no 'perfect typing' is required nor is she being asked to understand what she would be doing. CLI would be more like playing bingo for her. If granny can read and press physical things, cli is objectively better than asking her to find random boxes to click.
Um windows would fail this test too. When I need to fix something for them I have to physically go down there, figure out what they're doing wrong, walk them through it multiple times and give them written instructions. And even that will fail.
There are a lot of Linux users who seem to feel that anyone who has issues with Linux is either incompetent or have the 'go and read the manual' mentality. This really has to change and it only pushes people further away, but I think they like it that way as it makes them feel somehow better than you.
Well living in their grandma's basement is nothing to write home about. They have to excel at something 💀
@@dee23gaming or rather LibreOffice Calc at it
Spot on!
also there really needs to be a manual if they’re gonna say that stuff…
Even though I have been daily driving Linux for a while now (2 years), sometimes issues just appear that you need serious help with. I used to run an R9 290 during the shortage and it had this weird glitching on the screen whenever a window was moving and HiDPI (aka more granular window scaling for you non-Linux people) was enabled. I would have NEVER found that out unless I poked around. I just turned it off on whim and it worked. Linux is as weird as Windows or perhaps more. We just gotta all band together and work through it :)
It really is a shame that Linus went with Manjaro. It's had a rocky development history, it does things differently enough from base Arch that it's often on its own in terms of how to accomplish things and it's one of the most unstable distributions I've ever tried in my 20+ years of running Linux. I'm sure it's great for some people, but it's somewhat of a terrible choice for dipping your toes.
Exactly
Ubuntu is the obvious choice for what they are testing, and neither of them are using it. Like, seriously, I love alternate distro's as much as the next guy but this isn't a fair comparison
That's the thing, many people say manjaro is the most stable and the greatest distribution ever but i've had nothing but trouble with it and i tried it several times since it's beta until few years ago
For me Manjaro was the only distro that posed no problems whatsoever so far. It's the only one where going into the command line is actually a rare occurance that happens only if a developer of some program borked up (like spotify with album covers before the recent update)
I never had problems with it, but one thing is sure: They like to do things their own way, adding bloat mostly
I would agree 100%
As a developer and a Linux user, here's what I have to say to the hardcore Linux community (and honestly many more): you're not the average user and you need to know your audience.
You'll never be the average user either and that's perfectly fine. We're a species that specialize and it's one of the things that got us this far.
If you're a dev, know who you're writing software for and actually write it for them, otherwise you're wasting your time. If you're an advanced user, the only smart move is to come to terms with the fact that not everybody is like you. Learn to put yourself in other people's shoes. If it's not for the average user, that's fine too, just don't "sell" it as such.
I want to see Linux desktops have a big market share one day, but that can't happen if the average user has a bad experience. Some distros have honestly become really good, but they (and desktop software) still have quite a few rough edges. Remember, you can't fix an issue by denying its existence.
This is so true. I had installed kde plasma on my Ubuntu system today and decided I didn't like it, so I had to remove it.
While removing it, I realized the mess I would have been in if I had to remove all those packages one by one.
Btw, which distro are you on?
@@syedmuhammadsameer8299 Currently, I'm mainly using Mint on my desktops and Ubuntu Server on my servers. For Mint, I usually go with Cinnamon, or XFCE for my older stuff.
I tried Manjaro with KDE Plasma like 1-2 months ago for a few days and it wasn't going to work for me, sadly. There were countless small issues and I use my main rig to be productive, not to have an extra hobby (maintaining the OS), as much as I can see the appeal lol.
Also, what do you do as a developer?
" We're a species that specialize and it's one of the things that got us this far"
It's funny because most the Linux users I know are not... let's say "over achievers". This weird idea that using the terminal all the sudden means you now make more money and are just a better person is a mentality I've always found funny.
I'm also a developer, and most of the developers I know use windows. Doesn't mean Linux sucks, it just means that for a lot of us we prefer troubleshooting the things we're making as opposed to the OS we're using. Bragging about using linux is a lot weirder than I think people realize, because it's a tool at the end of the day, a tool is supposed to be efficient and easy to use. It's like a builder bragging about how he's better than the other builders because he spends 20% of his time fixing his hammer....
The problem with Linux is that there is still al lingering sense of gatekeeping around Unix that dates back to the mainframe vs PC days. Unix admins were far more skilled but found themselves being replaced by Windows servers and there was a lot of resentment, being able to use a terminal was like a dividing line in the wider war.
They saw Windows GUIs as crutches for unskilled admins and users and they never came around to see the Apple/Jobs way of putting the GUI and user first. That was literally pulling the rug out from under their jobs.
While I don't doubt there were plenty of skilled Unix Admins... the fact that they couldn't transition to the... much easier to use (at the time at least) environment is a testament to a lack of adaptability in a field that requires A LOT of adaptability by it's very nature.
If your command line grasp is not enough to keep up with GUI interactions (as the vast majority aren't) ... you either have to admit the command line is inferior OR that you can't keep up with a simplified system...
@@Peterowsky As someone who was raised on GUIs, became a power user on GUIs, and pretty much only ever touched GUIs until I was in high school, I will tell you there's something you haven't accounted for. Once you have learned how to use a good shell (and no, knowing how to change directories is not what I mean), especially with the boons gained from cleverly designed paradigms that *NIX employs, GUIs are immensely kludgy and frustrating. It isn't that you can't keep up with the simplified system, it's that the simplified system cannot keep up with you. The power offered by a compositional interface (which is the primary paradigm behind CLIs. GUIs have an exploratory paradigm at their core) is second to absolutely none. It not only lets you express ideas more flexibly, but it also has a much higher capacity for displaying useful information. Once you have mastered the shell, you know how to handle its unfathomable granularity with a navigational efficiency far greater than you could ever get out of a GUI. Modern shells that offer vi keys increase that by several orders of magnitude. You become entitled to the very concept of piping around stdouts to stdins. Chaining modular binaries and scripts with shorthand invocations. Having a densely informative manual just a few keystrokes away. When you go from that back to a GUI, it feels like somebody put chicanes every 20 meters in all the straights on a race track. Hotkeys will never be able to replace a proper compositional interface. I recently took part in a project at work to create a build environment for Mac, which is something that can only be done on Macs thanks to some very colorful EULA stipulations. A mere 10 minutes into trying to configure the system and coax the build environment to life, I decided I'd had enough, set up the SSH daemon and haven't touched the Mac GUI since. There's nothing wrong with never learning how to properly use a CLI, it requires a lot of time investment on top of an already pretty solid understanding of how computers work. However I certainly won't agree with this reactionary elitist response, having had the reverse experience of those Unix sysadmins. Systems administration, devops, whatever. A GUI is simply uncomfortable for these tasks and many others, but it's not going to make sense why unless you do exert all of that effort to be properly jacked in.
@@Peterowsky You don't understand the dynamics of the time. Unix admins serviced far more people and commanded a much better salary.
Part of the Windows strategy was that it somewhat enabled inexpensive novice admins to run an organizations computers. You could replace a hard to find Unix guy at 80K with Skippy from college for $35K, and that is how the Unix guys saw it.
Skippy.
It was an economic strategy that worked, it forced Unix guys out of their jobs and allowed much cheaper Windows novices. Albeit with a lot of hilarious foul ups that tarnished the 'MCSE' title for many years.
The gatekeeping is just an excuse. The real problem is, that Linux desktops are collection of opensource projects without much of a direction. Everyone does what he *wants* to do, and not what *needs* to be done. Basic features are missing, because the developers are only interested in developing what *they* deem useful. And they are mostly working for free, so you cannot really force them to work on something they don't want to.
If you feel, gui is anywhere near as User friendly, or easy to use as the terminal, you have never used the terminal.
Good luck finding the right button to click through 100s of menus, while it's just 1 copy paste for a Linux user.
Even on windows, you constantly have to search how to do things through powershell, because gui simply cannot match the unlimited user friendliness of the terminal/cmd, not to mention debugging errors.
What are you going to tell tech support
"I click the button but nothing happens"
Meanwhile
"Error: your usb is full."
Plus, exactly telling you what it is doing at every steps.
Tech support : "sir just type these 3 words"
The login-problem Linus mentioned could be, faillock - a mechanism that prevents logins after too many failed logins - often the login-gui just says "failed login" in any case, even if the password was right, but faillock was engaged - better handling there would really improve that situation, so users would better understand what is going on there
Or his keyboard is faulty.
Also that really shouldn't be bypassed by a restart. Tbh a faillock logic is 100% bs on a desktop PC(maaaybe a laptop).
@@tr7zw What r u talking about? Faillock locks your PC or laptop until a reboot or for 10 minutes
@@paulvorderegger1522 I think they meant that a fail lock that can be bypassed with a restart seems like a bad design.
Although if it is what happened to Linus, that bypass helped him. It's still pretty stupid that he wasn't told he got fail locked or something like that.
@@ZNotFound A faillock is there so u cant brute force it. If u have to restart every 3 tries u can give up already. Thats what its for
For Windows, you do a sanity check on the software. In Linux, you need to run a sanity check on the developer.
Cause Microsoft failed the sanity check a long time ago
@@matthewepshtein9026 Clearly not. Linux has been 'taking over' the desktop for over 30 years now. It still sucks.
"You shouldn't want that" oh yes, the magic phrase with which every fresh linux user is being greeted with. Will never go out of style
It's good advice. Once you know what you're doing, you will know how to do it as well.
Well to be fair that mostly comes up with users wanting to install an EXE to a specific folder w/o considering the native alternatives (if it's not a game or commercial software suite especially).
Also this will come up in most other situations people assume certain stuff, like it's a good idea to go Flatpack over native package, because it feels more familiar to them and has "less issues".
And if he asked on the Manjaro forum it's easy to expect that most answers will amount to "I expect you being a noob unless specified, so I'll give you a noob answer.". If he'd asked in the Arch Forum he'd either get booted (if they deem his situation entirely self-inflicted) or helped verbosely.
what I find amusing about that is that Linux generally has the exact opposite philosophy. By default, there's nothing stopping you from running "sudo rm -rf /*" or "dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda" and nuking your whole system, so bubble-wrapping a GUI in such an annoying way seems bizarre. To be fair, nautilus (the GNOME default) doesn't have this issue, though there's still no easy "run as administrator" option.
@@sirgodricenwardsaier9074 Well I mean Windows also let's you "mountvol C: /d" (eject the C:\ drive), "reg delete HKLM /f" (delete most of the most crucial registry hive) in regular Admin CMD or "clean" (fill the lead-in/MBR/GPT portion with zeros) within recovery mode. Only thing definitely not standard within Windows is actually using a DD equivalent out of the box.
I recently switched to daily driving Linux. Learning how to use it has been my hobby for last few months.
A couple weeks ago, my brother asked me if I could download an arcade emulator. So I tab over to my terminal and `sudo apt install mame`. He just stares over my shoulder as the text is scrolling and says "are you hacking or something?"
That kinda blew me back. Something that feels so simple and almost second nature (enough that I absentmindedly typed it in as soon as he asked), and it looks like some sort of advanced computer expert technique to the average person. Of course, 6 months ago I would have had the same reaction... but it was just surreal to experience it.
Lol my parents think Linux is a virus
I setup a Minecraft server on my Pi, and it was really fun to figure things out and explore problems I had but holy crap, it was also just as annoying at times. The fact that I couldn't simply drag and drop the plugins I downloaded into the plugins folder was so stupid. Spent way too long trying to figure out why they wouldn't move, and the reason being as simple as I didn't capitalize the D in Downloads.
Most ppl dont know that an "install" button is just a user friendly GUI frontend for manually typing in "sudo apt install". Computers can be so simple its scary.
@@guruthecodershorts791 when in reality windows and mac are more of a virus than linux
Why do you have to type a cammand for every little thing tho, it seems convoluted
As a Linux user I’m really mad. I actually really wanted to hear him complain about using gentoo LOL
This video would be 10 hours long if he was running gentoo lmao
To be fair it would be wayyyyy more stable and secure than Manjaro. The complaints would basically all be about the install. Linus has cores for days compile times wouldn't matter
you're mad because it has a high skill requirement? that command line shit can make or break the deal
@@Fallen7Pie Gentoo isn't any more (or less) secure than Manjaro. In order to get the game launchers running he's going to need the steam-overlay and that's flakey at times. Sure you can have Gentoo stable, but for Linus's "challenge" a stable Gentoo install isn't on the cards (and I don't mean stable keywords, I mean stuff not segfaulting or having issues).
@@sjoerdstougie the joke is: it's funny to see Linus suffer
Dude... They mentioned Forged Alliance and FAF, and my dedication to our hero Linus multiplied ten fold. Bless. Incredible, incredible game. Awesome topic to tackle.
Props to the FAF Linux team that made it easier to install it on Linux
Your experience using manjaro is similar to what I’ve had. I never had all of these “strange” issues happen with arch. Same exact thing with using any distro based on Debian outside of Ubuntu. Likely I’m doing something dumb, but I’ve found the closer to the source seems to work the best.
Thats crazy, mine runs butter smooth, the only times something went wrong it was my fault, at a point i used timeshift for backups, and i forgot to remove the games folder, and that made my harddisk stick to 0% and after a reboot it just would not display, after 5 minutes of googling i've noticed that gnome didin't have enough space to iniate it, went to the recovery mode, used a couple of terminal comands to cd to the game folder, delete it, deleted some stuff on the downloads folder and that was it, it came back to life. Another time i deleted a piece of the OS on the terminal because i'm dumb. The rest is being great.
Yeah manjaro is bad by design.
They have their own repo and hold their packages updates for exactly (and subjectively) 1 month, before building and releasing the new pkg update.
Could be a good idea, but they don't even do any testing to packages.
So basically you end up with 1month old package, that can have bugs already fixed in Arch or else.
I also had compatibility issue that I didn't have on pure Arch or even EndeavourOS
If you're having problems with Debian it's definitely just you.
@@1pcfred the statement was that Debian itself was fine, but things using it as a base tend to be kinda half-baked. That's my experience as well.
@@kendarr Perhaps this is a problem too, it's not consistent
well since when did linux become consistent anyway aside from the... hmm
Unfortunately this is sorta just what happens when you've got a product essentially by and for software engineers. You don't notice the hugs because you're used to fixing that kind of stuff, you're used to command lines because you've built a lot of cli applications yourself, and you don't think it's unreasonable to have to tinker with every little thing. I feel sympathy for non-developers getting into this world. And I do acknowledge that I get frustrated by Linux more than I let on as well lol
'some' developer are hoping that someday, normies will hop in this world but then they only provide tool that more geared toward developers, maintainers or admins. like heck it will happen. its a total gate keeping
My sister can't figure out that the computer needs to be on before using it.
This guy can't use drag and drop on KDE… though I just tried and it works completely fine.
He probably tried to do ctrl+c ctrl+v from the archive to the file manager, which DOES NOT work. The archive app has no "copy" concept. Had he actually drag and dropped it would have worked.
Developers will want feedback from someone who is more humble and actually saying what he actually did to fix anything, he is not providing anything useful.
@@asdqqweq He was arguing about two separate things; One was copying files via drag and drop from a user-accessible folder to an admin/system one (like the /etc directory) which I personally never even tried cuz I'm used to have a root shell lying around and the second was copy-paste from an archive to (for example) your desktop cuz that's how it works with Winrar, 7-Zip (Gui) and Windows' built in zip handler. Its just uncomfortable to press a "extract" button and search for a location you'd like to extract to.
Windows just works "plug and play" compared to Linux. That's the problem :/
@@asdqqweq "developers will want feedback from someone who is more humble and actually saying what he actually did to fix anything"
Dude, the whole point is that no normal pc user should have to solve the kinds of problems linux presents people with. If the problem is that a normal user wouldn't know that ctrl + c and ctrl + v dont copy and paste, the problem lies squarely with the file manager that does not support ctrl c + v. Why would you want to hear a technical user tell you "I solved this problem by just using the cp command"? That tells you nothing.
Need to force close a program? Have fun memorising how to use ps, grep and kill to fetch the pid of a program and kill it manually...
What good would telling the devs of an operating system that you solved the problem by just using the command line when the problem is that no user should ever need to type "ps -aux | grep program" just to find and then kill a faulty application...?
I like this comment because you didn't notice the "bug" in it. It really proved its point.
I've switched to Linux not too long ago and I don't regret my choice. However! I 100% agree with Linus - there are certain most basic of tasks that you can do easy on Windows, that don't have a proper GUI way of doing them just because the community prefers using the terminal.
If Linux has a dream of ever having decent market penetration, the it better stop catering to the Power Users & improve their normie UX. The reality is that the majority of users don't have the enthusiasm to do everything the geeky way. These people only care about getting the job done - they don't care about the learning new commands for the prospects of maybe ever automating something. (In essence, make the terminal an option rather than a requirement)
And I agree 100% with the Linus on him grilling the douches that say: "Oh, you shouldn't want to do that". You need to understand that it doesn't matter. I don't mind if you tell me why I shouldn't do X or Y so long you tell me how to do it. In the end I want to be the one responsible for making the decision of whether I do X or not (and I will consider the warning).
There is a difference in philosophies between Windows and Linux. For many Linux users, the first application they might open after logging in is the Terminal. It might actually be multiple terminals, and tmux for even more terminals. For those users, the desktop is just a means to opening up a bunch of terminals (where much of the heavy work is done), the web-browser, and maybe the email and chat client. Windows, however, is more graphically-friendly. It is possible to do most of the work, including the sys-admin work, without knowing much of powershell or the command prompt. In Linux, it is the other way around - most of the sys-admin work is on the command-line, and in many cases, the command-line is preferred even if there is a graphical way of doing it.
I do understand why some of the Linux community would say "You shouldn't want to do that." The expectation within the Linux philosophy is to use the terminal, use "sudo" for temporary escalation to do any root level work, and then exit out. Java, for example can be installed without root level access (although admittedly, it is a bit more complex) by downloading the compressed tar.gz file, extracting it to a directory, and then export the paths in the terminal. I am not saying that "you shouldn't want to do that" is the "right" answer, but I do understand where they are coming from.
If the answer to "Why cant I do this?" is "Why would you want to do this?" on the platform that is supposed to be about being able to do whatever you want to do I feel like something might just be a bit wrong.
Unfortunately this is common in the Linux community. The response SHOULD HAVE BEEN "Here is why you shouldn't do this, but if you want to do it anyways here is how." Like it's not advisable to give your user write access to directories outside of the home directory (in most cases), but you CAN do it if you want to. The community needs to educate more instead of defaulting to "Why would you want to do XYZ?"
@@MikeKelly87 exactly and users smart enough to understand why you shouldn’t do this should be honest enough to recognize that sometimes you have to, it feels like gatekeeping using Linux knowledge… if you don’t already know then maybe you shouldn’t be here… but then how would you learn?!
I've seen this with file managers. I saw a reddit thread with a user complaining about not being able to write files on a thumb drive. I had the same issue. The dude was clearly frustrated and venting, but I didn't think it was over the top. It was an entire thread of people poopin on the dude, and not a one gave an answer. The general response was "you shouldn't do that, so the ability to do it was removed. If you want to do it you can edit a file to bring the functionality back. Otherwise use Bash." which is the most BS I've ever heard of in my life. 10:24 Made this comment before I watched that part of the video.
@@alexanderstuart7801 and whoever else gets locked out of a usb drive, chown the drive to your user account. Change back when done if needed.
@@ambarrlite I've resolved my issue. But may be good for anyone else. For the record, something between modifying fstab to add write permission (I was working on an internal drive) chown and chgrp (I think that's the command) eventually fixed it.
Quite excited to watch these videos when they come out, though I bet it will be somewhat painful for me. I've been using Linux almost exclusively during the last 22 years and I can't overstate how much I want it to succeed, so I will probably be a bit sad at times looking at your conclusions.
Also, regarding the gatekeeping, my feeling in general is that there's a pretty vocal and toxic bunch of self proclaimed Linux "power users" (what ever that means) that really makes me both sad and sometimes ashamed.
Anyhow, again excited to see the result!
Hello, Mattias;
I think the main issue is too many linux devs don't have the better, higher goal.
I think the goal should be making linux as simple as possible.
If that goal can be realized there will be money & jobs for the linux devs.
It is a form of enlightened self-interest.
Maybe you remember the movie tagline, "Built it, & they will come".
"Build it" is the linux OS that just installs & just works.
The result will be people (users) will migrate to the OS that is easy & welcoming.
Have a GREAT day, Neighbor!
It’s super cool to see a respectful Linux user! Glad to see people like you representing your community!
I hate this idea of toxic people on Linux because most of the time they are simply telling you "this is the way it is. If you don't like it, don't use it." But when people bend over backwards to help you make the system the exact way you want it to work it's still not appreciated nor wanted; "No! I want it to be more like window". You can't eat your cake and have it too.
Painful is good tho. If there isn't enough publicity criticizing the myriad of little problems, they wont be addressed and without them they wont be fixed.
I wish more people acknowledge this. Elitist Linux users are very real. It won't see widespread use if using is essentially constitutes to a "trial by fire" (which inherently only lets a few "deserving" people through).
I've been trying myself, just gotta free up more time...
"Yeah, they're both bad"
Mac users just had an entirely un-earned nerdgasm.
It's all fun and games until you tell a developer he's forced to use Xcode
@@christianmartinez2179 most developers at my company love their macos environments, (not xcode dev though), java, c, , eclipse/python/nodejs etc etc.
macOS isn't any better hahaha
While no platform is perfect Mac OS X is probably the most refined user experience with the fewest bugs.
Fewest does not mean none.
@@akhial developing on macos is incredibly stable. It's not the perfect os, but for many applications it's the best
I remember back in high school someone yelled at me that the command line is always faster. That must be why I was able to beat him with my “dumb” mouse. I use the command line most of the day. But I cant help but laugh at the people who defend this never drag and drop. Just use the tool that’s the easiest for you. Why do people need to be so dramatic and seemingly live or die by the OS they choose.
Depends what you're doing. So I'd agree with you that "always" is incorrect but there's some things that take trivial times on CL that would take a lot longer with GUI. I always thought that GUI stuff should have some command line style functionality so, for example, you should be able to navigate to a folder then type something like "select *_2.jpg" to select all matching files then continue with GUI operations.
@@chaos.corner You can, it's called a search box. It's at the top right of the Windows file browser.
@@notnullnotvoid and how much time does it take to click on the search box , select then drag and drop
The command line is hella useful for networking and development. There are some system management and setting functions in which the command line is great but there some things that are still faster with a GUI.
@@jack_reaver well , I can still do it faster than you . And especially when you have to bring things from ".." directory or hidden directories .
I recently installed PopOS on a spare M.2 when you started your challenge, as Linux is required for homework in some of my classes, and it's been okay. Super usable, based of Ubuntu which I've enjoyed. Deff not a hardcore Linux user tho
your classes required you to install a whole other operating system to be able to do the homework?
@@DuckInGameStop yes and no. Our instructor tells us to just use virtual box, but obviously since i have multiple drives I just did a full install.
@@DuckInGameStop I've heard that several times now
@@DuckInGameStop Plenty of software engineering courses take a look at linux as part of a unit on operating systems and how they function. Most people in these classes just run it on a virtual machine though, easier to clean up once your done.
@@imnotgivingmyname2389 ah, okay
To be fair, lots of these points like "you don't have to restart" and "it's the most stable thing" mentioned in the beginning of the video are mainly valid for certain setups:
If you have a Debian server with a live kernel for example, sure, nothing will take that system down and it will have an uptime of multiple years.
If you are, however, using something like Arch or Manjaro and trying to install the latest nvidia-beta drivers from the AUR and you consider suicide because your graphical environment will not start, that is a completely different story. You might have to reboot because just upgraded your kernel and your kernel modules don't work and so on.
no, you just need to know which services to restart to get the thing working. (period) Restarting the system is the easiest way out
@@aniketfuryrocks how is it so wrong to choose the easiest way out?
This has been my experience as well. I don't have long "uptimes" anymore because I shut my machine down each night, but the only time I ever reboot my mom's Ubuntu system is after a kernel update. However, that's not to say that "never" having to reboot should be a "goal" of running Linux and I never understood why that was ever mentioned as a "benefit".
is Luke using Wayland? They're both on Nvidia GPUs, right? At least for me, Wayland is extremely choppy and not smooth at all with my Nvidia GPU on PopOS, while X11 is fine.
Everyone keeps talking about these Wayland, Xorg, X11, what does that even mean? How do i know if my Pop OS is using "the correct one"? I'm also using Nvidia gpu with nvidia drivers.
@@bluestar5812 They are different display servers, wayland is the new tech which is not yet working on nvidia but mostly works on amd afaik, but xorg (sometimes called x11) is the old ancient one which works on almost anything but has a lot of problems with security and stuff and it's simply not worth it to rework it so they made wayland instead
Oh thats interesting. On my Amd GPU its the other way around. Games on xorg feel laggy and bad while on Wayland it feels much better and smoother.
@@bluestar5812 xorg is an ancient display server (the thing that draws windows on your screen) that has every feature imaginable because it's been updated since forever. The issue with it is that it wasn't designed for what it's used for today and because of that it does all the things it does a little bit backwards and the more recent something cool is the more stupid is the way that xorg does it.
Wayland is supposed to be the hot new thing that's built from the ground up to replace xorg, but there's so much stuff to implement in it (and in programs that are going to run on it) that it's a huge process and so wayland is simply unfinished and incompatible with a lot of stuff.
It's like having a car that you've been tinkering with and making better and better, one day you just feel like you need to get a new more powerful engine to upgrade it even further, but once you install the new engine it turns out that half of the car can't run with it.
Wayland is not ready for prime time. Wayland may never be ready. Although the Xorg situation is pretty dire right now too.
"you shouldn't want to do that" is one of the biggest annoyances with online communities - you want to achieve something that seems reasonable to be possible with specific software/hardware and then you need to fight off people arguing that your idea is stupid to begin with.
Back in my university days I liked the idea of multiseat/multi user desktop experience in Linux, but I didn't had two separate display adapters in the system nor two pci-e slots to handle them, but there were cards that did display separate PCI address (sub address?) for the DSUB/VGA port and I wanted to try and use that, and rather than someone specifically explaining why this scenario doesn't work, I always got people stating that it doesn't make sense to do it like this. If Linux is supposed to be a system which you're encouraged to tinker with and do what you want with it, the online community sometimes feels the complete opposite of such idea.
Also, I always felt like Linux is a system made by coders for coders and it was great for university, but the amount of stuff that simply doesn't work out of the box or stops working with updates was far greater than what happened for windows. Stuff like network card or nvidia driver not working after update and having to tinker around to get back to the desktop environment or simple stuff like sound still coming from the notebook's speakers when I plugged in the headphones, etc etc.
This is one of the main problems. You are coming from Windows or Mac and expecting a similar or congruent experience. There are very different philosiphies underlaying not only the linux kernel, but all the various distros and utilities. You can attempt to replicate a Windows user experience, but there will be differences that annoy you. Boiling things down to "the online community" is just dishonest when there are so many different forums, networks, communities, etc. of people who are willing to help with various constraints. There is plenty of great resources out there that you can use and there is plenty of people who are happy to help. Sure people can get argumentitive and/or elitist and not properly explain why you shouldn't be doing something, but just because you don't understand that they are trying to tell you doesn't mean that you are doing it right. There are all sorts of stupid Windows-derived things emerging all over the linux ecosystem because people refuse to accept that Windows is a terrible operation system which should not ever be used for inspiration. Snap packages and Flatpack come to mind, over use of Docker containers, etc. People do things because they are used to doing it a certain way, or they think it is cool and cutting edge - only for a smarter person to point out that their approach is trash and there is no polite way of breaking the bad news.
@@redd_cat cool did you reply to the wrong comment, because enough didn’t even talk remotely about what he was saying other then go Windows bad.
Hehehe, every community seems to have its users with that mentality. It is the go-to even for fun ones, like the RPG Maker community.
"Why would you want to do that?"
"... Because I do?"
“You shouldn’t want to do that”
That is Mac users a lot; whether it’s 32bit apps and games, physical media, or even wanting a maximise button as opposed to full screen.
Its a security risk to let GUI applications have access to root file system. Thats why it wouldn't let him and why he was told that.
This is a good review. I hate that many linux users and developers are anti-GUI and it shows in their desktop.
I am very... very curious about these videos. I want to see just how badly, or well (some cases) this has gone. Because the tid bits they hint at are making me super curious.
I'm also curious about anthony's comments, if those are still part of the videos. even just as, hopefully, a "Yeah this is why this is happening" commentary.
I agree with your view. The small tidbits of info that is shared in this video is keeping many interested and drawing in more people each day. Let's hope someone that is part of the videos gives some insight or explanation of how and why these events happen and ways they could be fixed or avoided. Hopefully....
@@ricktanner6968 Exactly, I've used linux on and off for a while but I often find that when I do have an issue, I'd like to know why something happened and if it could be fixed or avoided. Especially, if an obscure issue.
Also swear I've has the same issue as linus once, but I can't confirm if it was glitch or if I just misremembered my password. both are possible
I'm half expecting for either Anthony to come in and say "wtf are you doing" or for him to say "wtf are you doing" but in a slightly more confused tone
@@macrodesatire1108 The password issue was related to a change in the way passwords are handled and stored, and this broke compatibility with some programs in the user-space. Most notably sudo. It's been fixed upstream(git) for some time I believe, as I can't reproduce it anymore on my arch machine. Funny to see it trickle down to the repos of distros only now when it should already be fixed. Yeah, open source does have problems.
Dolphin was the reason I switched _to_ KDE. Having the terminal pane which follows you around is awesome!
Dolphin is more polished than konqueror...but man do I love konqueror!
yeah, I would be really curious how can he find Nautilus better in KDE DE than Dolphin (I can somewhat imagine Nautilus being better under Gnome).
I mean, I had some WTF moments with Dolphin here and there, like having ability of two-pane without easy hotkey to switch between (now they added the oldschool "tab" hotkey, so it works then like old norton commander)... and I think I may have forgotten about some other issues, as I got used to them.
But still getting to the point that "dolphin is horrible" ... interesting. About the particular issue with modifying system files... well, it is possible to run dolphin as root IIRC, but user really shouldn't need that. The particular stuff about java RE or plugins... all of that is usually doable in user space, keeping the system with regular setup and packages and if it is not accessible from user space, and really root has to install plugins which are not available through package manager, then that's either some WIP SW under heavy development or "bug" worth reporting - either on packagers side or developers side.
The way how Linus describes it sounds like he will run into some further issues in the future, while updating the system, etc... :/ ... (I'm not blaming him, it's often easier to find some help how to do things "incorrectly" and unless you have deeper understanding about the SW and your distro packaging, you have little chance as user to decide which how-to is better)
But I wish they would reserve few more hours of their time after this challenge, and sit down with some authors, like KDE devs, and show them live some of the issues, etc.. so there's a chance to improve it further. If you are long time linux user (like me, and I'm even being SW developer), you get quite blind to some stuff, and you just don't do things "that" way as you know it would get you into trouble, but if the correct and friendly ways are not easy to discover, that's something to fix on the distro/SW side. (although as a user I strongly recommend to learn some basics about computers and how they work, it will very likely make your life with computers lot easier and more effective)
Dolphin is awesome but that one thing Linus complains about is the only complaint i really have with it, still like "but why..."
I instantly loved dolphin when I learned it supported ftp login by default
The Gamecube/Wii emulator?
It thrills me to see someone as tech-savvy as Linus have all of the issues if not more that I've experienced whenever I get convinced by the Penguin Hivemind to give Linux a try again. Makes me feel like I'm not crazy, or irredeemably stupid -- Linux is just not mainstream ready yet.
Thankfully its starting to get there. But as Linues has demonstrated, as well as some other comments, the community it's just awful kids wirh superiority complex. Most think they're some kind of NASA IT after typing sudo apt update... Yikes
I know! Same here, I usually get banned. I get called a liar when I explain my issues on Reddit or Facebook pages or the distros online community! They always ban me, blaming me instead of the distro. I've learned that it's best to not ask the Linux community for help and just read the MAN pages for help. I'f my answer isn't there or on CZcams, then I'm screwed. They blame they users for the damm distros fault.
Yeah, command line is the issue. On win you never have to use it. I just want windows with the performance of Linux, no command line ever.
@@serenegrace2515 I like to call them "Tech Vegans"
And it never will be. Not one of the distros seems to understand that UX does not stop at the web browser. In order for any Linux distro to become mainstream it *needs* *to,* at the very least:
- Stop swapping its packages, like they are clothes, and stick with ones that work.
- Have a gui for *every* setting, even for things like daemons and stop generating config files with shell scripts.
- Give up man pages, and have a *searchable* documentation like its already '97. Preferably with links.
10:37 - "You shouldn't _want_ to do that."
That's Linux forums for you. Utterly useless for everyone who isn't already a self-taught expert -- and self-taught experts don't need forums anyway, so they're utterly useless for everyone.
Something I heard a long time ago that explains a lot of the Linux "power user" mentality: "BSD is for people who love Unix, and Linux is for people who hate Microsoft." A lot of Linux "power users" _really do_ make choices about what they will do based on what Linux supports, rather than making choices about what OS to use based on what they want to do, because they are ideologically bound to Linux as a platform and that is the only thing that matters to them.
Linux community: "microsoft and apple are taking the power away from the user!"
also linux community: "you shouldn't want to do that, that's why it's not possible"
I'm really curious about what he was doing, because it actually sounds like he shouldn't want to do that.
OBS plug-ins should be installed into a folder in your home folder. If it's being put somewhere else that feels wrong (I don't know all the details so maybe it should go somewhere else, but I don't know why it would).
The Java thing also sounds odd. You should be able to install multiple java versions normally. I currently have 3 versions, 8, 11 and 17, all though the package manager. I would imagine that can be done in manjaro too.
But I do get his point too. If a user wants to do something, the desktop shouldn't stop them, but it should put up barriers letting them know there may be doing something dangerous.
I am a supporter on a Linux forum and my response would have been similiar. I would have also given the needed command to copy the file, but most people only google these threads anyway and never care to ask.
Anyway the reason you shouldn't want to do it is that opening a GUI application as root might change permissions in the home directory effectively bricking the system. And how tf am I supposed to explain how to recover that to a user which doesn't even want to copy files via the command line
@@tristianyamaty As for java you are confusing OpenJRE with Oracle JRE. I am assuming he talks about the latter and that needs a manual installation including manually copying files to /opt on every distro. Thanks to javas license ;)
@@tristianyamaty: You don't get to make decisions about what users should or should not want to do. Computers are hugely complex systems and there is no way to describe every idiosyncrasy of a user's computer to other users on a web forum. Maybe they need to run multiple programs that don't share libraries politely; maybe they're running a ported program that doesn't know to look for libraries in the correct locations; maybe they're running a badly written program (which the Linux ecosystem has by the truckload) that they must use because no alternative exists; maybe the distro they're running has been "improved" in some way that breaks compatibility with Linux standards, like how Solus devs unilaterally decided that nobody needs Cron anymore and removed it from their repositories; or maybe they're working on a system that they _aren't allowed_ to explain to you in detail. There are any number of reasons why someone might need to do something in a non-standard way. As someone who is attempting to be helpful on an internet forum, you don't get to decide if their requirement is valid, you only get to answer the question as best you can or admit you don't know how. Saying "you shouldn't want to do that" is a cop-out to avoid admitting you don't know the answer while maintaining the appearance of being an expert.
I think the single worst thing that keeps the average user from ever switching to Linux is this: gatekeeping/elitism. And this is from the a community that swears that it wants more people using Linux. Don't get me wrong, the number of people who gatekeep or hold an elitist attitude is much smaller than a decade ago, or even 2 decades ago. Also, there are a lot of things that WILL work in Linux, but you have to work at it. I don't mind it so much, because it can be fun crawling under the hood to see how things tick. However, the average user just wants to sit down, open whatever program they want to open, and it just works. It's what they're accustomed to and their not gonna change either because they flat out don't want to or they "don't have the time" to learn.
It's like python elitists who keep saying your code isn't pYtHoNiC enough
I can agree on this specially that I experienced this more on Windows and not Linux. We were asking about the security issue which System Information folder on USBs creates and Windows people gave the most elitist gatekeeping reply.
Although I agree with you on the elitism, IMHO the issue is that the Linus' Linux experience is about a Windows power user trying to use the computer the way a Windows power user wants, but with Linux.
The real average user probably won't care about GSync, and won't even dare to tackle a driver issue.
And his refusal to use the terminal would make sense if he was just trying to use chrome, login into netflix and facebook and forget about it.
But he wanted to do power user things the windows way. And, in linux, if you want to do something even remotely power-usery, you have to use the terminal.
I do think there are cohesive problems in Linux Desktops, probably caused by a lack of UI/UX designers (and too many die hard coders taking UI desitions) and too many parallel projects making their own standard.
I also think there's a WIDE gap in Linux between grandma-level usecases and the rest. In windows you can be a power user acting like a normal user in a more daring way. In Linux, if you want to do something a little more elaborate than opening Chrome, the only real option is the terminal.
@@JuanPablo-ho7fg Your Missing the point, terminal shouldn't be the only option. Every time I have tried Linux there is always a broken driver, I look for a fix. There is usually at least 5 different ways to do it and they usually break something else. I agree windows sux, I really hate windows but it's what I'm use too. For ease of use like windows, why can't we double click on a driver file to install it. Why do I have to go to the terminal and type some random command which I don't understand because none of the guides explain what those commands actually do.
I'm using Graphic tablet and softwares + Office 365 to work.
I don't hate Linux as an OS, but I always have an urge to punch those Linux elitism!
Theres good reason to require superuser access to modify system folders. It makes a more secure operating system which significantly reduces the types of viruses which can harm your computer.
The issue is that dolphin doesn't let you run it with superuser access.
@@mauriciosmit1232 yeah, Dolphin needs to fix that.
I started about a year ago installed pop os on my thinkpad and haven't had any problems. I've had to Google a few things here and there but overall a good experience.
Agreed, a couple of months ago I decided to install Pop OS, and aside from once when I made a bone head mistake, it's been pretty smooth (with some learning about how it all works)
I've really been appreciating these videos on Linux.
I've been using Linux for work for a while now and I've grown to not like some of what Windows do, but fact is, I still use Windows on my personal computer from lack of support for games or softwares when it comes to Linux. And I really don't care that there's X or Y other clone available on Linux at times, I just want the shit I know how it works, and that's even from someone being a programmer as a daily job and happily using the shell.
So for better or for worse, I really hope these kinds of conversation breaks this niche shell that Linux can be so that maybe we can start seeing some changes into how it's been done and finally have a UX that could get everyone onboard and get more software and games being made available to Linux too, natively, and not just Windows only or through wine and the likes.
Linus, thank you for making this video and having this discussion. Big tech has been a thorn in my side for years and I have wanted open source projects like Linux to take off for a long time. The big problem with all Linux distros has always been user unfriendliness. So many deluded distro users think that it's okay to rely off the command line and that should only be the case if you work in development or if you're a power user. As far as I'm concerned, if your average, normal user needs to use the command line, the GUI is trash and the designer needs to start over. Average Joe should be able to do everything he needs to do via mouse and menus, not code in a terminal. Hopefully this will be a kick in the pants for most of the Linux community.
For the record everything you said is the case today Nobody using Linux these days need ever enter the command line. There are those who like to feel elitist by using the command line and bragging about it. They really dont speak for the community. Anyone can use the command line if they want but everything can be achieved from the GUI on a modern Linux based distro.
@@gregorymaider6939 "Nobody using Linux these days need ever enter the command line."
Whenever you encounter any problem and google "how do i do X in my distro", all you get is pages and pages of "Open the Terminal and type in a bunch of esotheric commands which may or may not brick your system."
The password issue is real, i have had the same problem multiple times :)
yup I've definitely had that happen with Linux before
I have had this problem as well. In my case the keyboard changed from the standard US keyboard so when I was typing in my password some of the letters were wrong. A restart always fixed the issue.
Is there a way to see what the system got as the password before hitting Enter? Like in Windows there's an eye-icon to briefly show the entered password to spot errors.
@@WhyLivEvil When I had Ubuntu on my netbook, there was some keyboard combination I could hit where it would enter letters kinda like they keyboard but they looked different and I think they were unicode and not standard characters. It happened so infrequently it was hard to diagnose and I'd usually just reboot. Not sure if I tracked it down to ctrl-space or something.
Stuff that you install without the package manager (like JRE and the OBS plugin) can be put into "~/.local/{bin,share,opt}". Copying them to system folders really isn't necessary. Also, never put stuff into "/usr/bin" or "/bin". Always put it into "/usr/local/bin" or "/opt" when manually messing with the file system. The only time that this and root privileges in the file manager should ever bee needed is when setting up a PPD printer driver.
most distros will still require root for writes to /usr/local and I'm not familiar with obs's plugin loading, but unless it's coded to look in other library/plugin paths it won't pickup plugins under /usr/local or ~/.local/
@@dekeonus Applications looking for plugins and addons in ~/.local/ is part of the XDG spec. Most applications support this without issue.
The point is not /local/bin requiring root rights for writing (one chould change that with a chmod or chown btw), but with the user not messing up their distro installation, once the package manager installs updates.
3:24 "Windows has had issues with sleep and wake for ever."
It's reassuring to hear that. My computer occasionally wakes up by itself in the middle of the night. I thought I just have a uniquely messed up system. Or ghosts.
Old comment but I turned off all wake on LAN type settings and it seemed to help.
@@chunkychuck Old but still relevant - I'm still having my computer wake up randomly. I'll try your suggestion once I get home.
It's a nasty problem because it's so random. If it doesn't happen for a month, it doesn't mean it's solved. Either it's solved, or by random chance it just hasn't happened for a month.
My computer used to do this. It would suddenly wake up at night and hibernate. This was actually a Windows config that when it had been sleeping for two hours, it would automatically power on and go into Hibernation Mode.
I think I solved this via control panel in Energy Settings.
@bruh My computer hasn't randomly woken up since, but as stated, it's random so I'm unable to make a definite statement that it did. D:
Are you guys using windows 11? Was it a clean install? Because I literally had never seen such issues. 0 bugs so far in almost 2 years. The only other machine that gave me 0 errors or bugs was the ps5 and switch.
This is why I'm gonna use zorin or pop os when I get my framework laptop lol.
Pop OS is great as a starter distro, we at Lutris love it and can't recommend it enough
The shortcuts on popos are horrible (at least coming from a windows environment). The rest pretty much feels like ubuntu with a few tweaks. After seeing ltt hype it up I decided to give it a try, but I'll be sticking to ubuntu after my trial period.
The only nice feature about popos is the preinstalled drivers. The store is kind of buggy and the navigation is clunky as hell.
Zorin has been a complete delight, very seamless stable experience
I've been using Garuda with everything working on my framework out of the box. Based on Arch and uses the Zen Kernel. The only bug I've really ran into is with Bluetooth on the AX210. Sometimes waking from sleep the device will not be detected until you do a full reboot, but it sounds more like an issue with iwlwifi firmware from what I could tell
Funny enough I didn't enjoy my experience with Pop that much... If you want to grow as a tinkerer with your distro it will fight you hard and then the "fixes" introduce more jank, but if you want to use it "as is" you will enjoy it a lot
Any idea when LTT are dropping these Linux videos? I'm so hyped
1 week.
Aren’t they on floatplane dawg?
@@Novashadow115 Wouldn't know - I'm not on Floatplane.
Funny, dolphin is actually one of my main reasons to use KDE, as it is super functional and easy to use. And also reacts as i would expect it to. My nemesis is definitely Gwenview, which I find offensively illogical and unusable.
i like gwenview. it's very easy to use for changing the size or cutting the borders of the image.
IKR? I hate having to use Windows Explorer at work, with no tabs or panes and no (functional) search
Same, I am so surprised! Dolphin is one of the best things about KDE to me. I adore it.
On the root issue, installing the OBS plugin does not require it, unless you are trying to drop it into the OBS install folder. What you're supposed to be doing, as linustechtips own guide showed, is putting it in the relevant folder in your home folder, where your user has full access.
I'd still want dolphin to support temporary root access...
If KDE, then its Krusader. Two panel file managers are the best way to organize files. The only use for dolphin, nautilus, or nemo is to make folders on the desktop, that open when you double click them.
@@EvanOfTheDarkness Dolphin has perfect two-panel support. Works really well with independent breadcrumps, filter, icon sizes, you name it.
I'm not a Linux pro. Very casual user. I have NEVER has any of the issues Linus has had. Maybe it's because mint is just a solid os but everything is so easy
Mint... solid os... lol
You don't have same hardware with him
Linus has some crazy hardware, like top of the line workstation parts. He also has some crazy thunderbolt passthru setup so he can use his computer in a separate room from where the computer actually is. He’s bound to run into issues with weird hardware that most people don’t use.
@@tannisroot what's wrong with mint? Very stable and easy to use in my experience.
Same
This is the problem with Linux as whole- is that in order to use it, you need to have a better understanding of how computers and software work. To make matters worse, other than Chrome OS, the only way you discover Linux still is through the computer savvy or online forums. There's no real world-wide advertisement for linux- at all. Until there is a Distro that actually can be advertised, actively developed stabily (on par with mac and windows) while still maintaining it's free status as well as account for the VAST array of hardware and extremely non-savvy users, User experiences on Linux will remain wildly inconsistent, uncertain and full of per-person or per-machine issues that will deter any non-savvy users.
The only reason I ever discovered linux exists is that the Terraria wiki has it listed as something Terraria can run on
You don't need anymore knowledge of how a computer or software works than any other OS. You are not sitting their writing code, you are not compliling custom binaries, hell I bet half of the people using it can't even read hexadecimal without a chart.
You just need to learn Linux. Which is essentially running an OS designed 20+ years ago.
Even simple things are a pain in the ass. Windows put task manager in Windows NT in 96. But yet with Linux I have to use terminal PS and Kill commands to do the same shit.
Is it getting better for use as an user? Absolutely! Is it still a pain in the ass in ways that shouldn't exist? Yes.
Linux is great for when you need to build an OS to do exactly what you need it to do.
That's simply the wrong mindset.
The main thing about open source is that users are supposed to understand the software they interface with. If you don't know what's running on your computer the entire purpose of an open source OS is defeated.
You don't have to be a technical genius to use Linux, just need to be competent enough.
@@mgzukows you just made his point better. U need to learn command line shits and learn how to solve problems way more in-depth than you need to on windows or Mac. 95% of the people don't care. They just want to use their computer to get their work done. Not sit there to fix their computer so that they can start doing their work. Linux is good for nerds and that's about it... It's no where near to a mainstream OS.
Android? Maybe?
Linus, using Manjaro: "I've had a really unstable experience"
Me, remembering what Manjaro is: "🤦♂️"
LOL
They probably had same experience with other more actual "stable" distros
@@EiliaTmr manjaro gets a lot of hate and linus issues have nothing to do with the distro, so yea you're probably correct
@@EiliaTmr the whole point of this was they are noobs on Linux. Arch could be more stable, at certain things, but the point of Manjaro isn't stability, it's bleeding edge & "fix it yourself". Any distro with more users will be more stable. Arch isn't built for ease of use to a seasoned windows user
Bruh, Manjaro literally had none of the issues Linus described and my Linux experience amounts to using Ubuntu back in 2011 and prior and then very rarely using anything like it (totally new to Arch w/o reading most of the manuals). Yes, I'm an IT guy, but Linus is too, so arguing that the defaults of a distro that he probably picked without actual consultation of his needs is just plain stupid.
Not to brag or anything, but I could probably get freaking Gentoo running better than Linus did Ubuntu (with the help of Anthony) in the vids a few years back, since many of the games in the Linux challenge he showed not working ran perfectly for me at the same time. In this case I really think at least 80% of his described issues are a "layer 8" or exotic hardware error.
Linus: I swear to you on my mother's grave.
Mother: Say what?
I've used all three extensively: Win, Mac and Linux. They all suck on certain areas.
What I would take from them:
From Windows: app support, the availability of apps, hardware support
From Linux: how to get and install apps, how to roll out updates, stability, security, privacy (no phoning home), power tools like bash, etc...
From Mac: consistency of UI between apps, hardware support
UI/UX has been the unloved orphan of software development for way too damn long.
Yeah, they suck really hard😀😂
so the ideal system would be a back end linux with mac front end and windows third parties
@@RothAnim for good explainable reasons. Linux is still behind in so many areas
@@Zephyroths being that macos runs bsd as the backend, this is why I personally use my mac as my daily mostly. , Games on windows. my services on linux and daily on mac.
About linus' password issue: This happens when the password is typed incorrectly too many times. It will silently reject every password, even when you finally type the correct one, for X number of minutes. A reboot resets this limit though so that's why it instantly worked
When I say 'linux is stable' I make it clear, I am not talking about X11/XORG. Desktop environments on Linux are far far far from it and are probably the jankiest part. Computers are complicated, and no os is perfect, especially one that's built off of individually developed community software that has to work together reliably.
About the force quit, while there should probably be a gui for it, using pkill in the command line becomes much easier and more reliable.
"There are all kinds of weird little stupid things that are not cohesive"
Perfect summarisation of the Linux experience.
@@ElmerGLue having a Windows background has little to do with it, I have been a macOS user since my mom was also always a mac user and that's the platform I've been with for the longest, and even tho Linux/macOS shells are almost identical (due to mac being Unix and GNU Linux *Nix like) I feel weirded out by Linux stuff a lot of the time, and I've been using Linux for 10yrs now AND I am a sys admin.
Linux is great but is still and probably always will be a niche, just like macOS is and has always been.
"there should probably be a gui for it"
Yeah no shit.
Yeah or use htop to kill programs
There is a force kill for GUI, xkill. Can be run with the keyboard shortcut Ctrl + Alt + Esc and clicking on the window you want to force close with the skull icon that your cursor switches to.
pkill won't kill uninterruptible sleep ie things waiting on kernel io ... given Linus's mentions of issues with his thunderbolt setup I could see some issues there.
Guys, Linus' password is "segways to our sponsor" 😂😂😂😂
Underrated comment
I've been a heavy linux desktop user since 2008. Prior to that I was a heavy Windows user (wrote software professionally on Windows, for what that's worth....).
I still use Windows for specific business purposes, but that is running in a VM on my Linux machine.
I tried (really, I honestly TRIED) to switch back to Windows 10 about 18 months??? ago.
It was the most singularly frustrating experience I've had in a while. After fighting with Windows 10 for about a month, I reformatted and put Linux Mint back on.
So what was my problem? Pretty much the same thing that most Windows users have when switching to Linux; Windows didn't do things the way I expected. I have spent the last 12 years learning how to do what I want to do in Linux; I know how to achieve the things I need to do, I know where to get look for the answers to my questions. I don't know these things to the same depth on Windows any more, and frankly, I just go tired of beating Windows into submission.
Truly, this is not the fault of Windows; it is my fault. I wasn't willing to invest the time to learn the 'Windows way' of doing things. Likewise when switching from Windows to Linux. If you aren't willing to invest the time to learn the 'Linux way' of doing things, you are ultimately going to fail.
Windows and Linux are different operating systems. They have fundamentally different underlying architectures, assumptions, and user experiences. Expecting Windows to be Linux is just as insane as expecting Linux to be Windows.
My experience has been the Linux is capable of being and doing everything that I need. That is because I have spent the time learning how to get linux to be and do everything that I need.
I appreciate the Linus has had a frustrating experience with Linux, much like I had with Windows, and I'm not shaming him for giving up on desktop Linux (just like I gave up on Windows). He's not where he feels like investing the time to get Linux to do what he needs. That's fine. At least now he has an informed opinion, and knows that switching to Linux is not just "Plug-n-Play". It requires and investment of time and diligence. Not everyone can, or is will to, make that investment.
Also, let's face facts. Sometimes there are just some pieces of software that you HAVE to run, that ONLY run on Windows, or that only have the specific feature you need in their Windows versions. (Like allowing others to control your desktop in Webex).
I started using popos when I realised y’all were doing this challenge. Really love it.
It looks good but It's still shitty-ish... when it comes to UI/UX.
I use it too, for soft. dev.
MacOS and Windows UX is on another level.
Linux is way behind man...
@@pewlivepie5006 yup while I like it, there a tons of minor things that are irritating and issues can take a while to solve.
I still have windows as my main os and have been dual booting into popos.
@@pewlivepie5006 Eh, I agree. I think KDE has the best UX right now, at face value, but the worst quality of life. Gnome is more like 'can't change a thing, but nothing breaks.' But I also disagree because OSX has some of the dumbest lack of features (snap tiling wtf) and WIndows is also rather fuggo. PopOS is p sexy, but I don't use it much since it's GTK.
I think this is good. You're bringing long lasting problems to light. I'm a linux user. Wouldn't call myself a power user but I have been using it for about 4yrs. Us as a linux community need to stop acting like this is a perfect computing solution.
That's the major reason I would never install Linux on my computer again. I have this overly arrogant attitude by the linux fanboys all the time. And when I simply explain them, why I can't use Linux (because most major radio broadcasting programs I use are Windows only and there is no adequate Linux radio software available), they come with absolutely amateur programs like idjc or even ask, why I would need that software anyways - because they cannot imagine, it seems, that you do something else with your computer than coding and surfing on linux forums. Many of the linux fanboys are so much into their specific believe what every user needs, that they don't understand, that users are individuals and that there are million ways to use a PC
but it is a perfect computing solution, it just depends on what you think is "perfect" ...
@@acmenipponair I think we as a community are starting to get better about this as more people start to mature, and other compassionate people join the community. A lot of people forget that Linux is a tool for humans to use.
I had the same experience with Linux. Of all the troubles I had experienced, I just kept silent and powered on for I am afraid to get flamed for my inexperience. I was one of the very few developers(C#) using Windows and the rest were on Linux. It's a camping story good for plenty of beers haha!
I've had this happen on both windows amd Linux before that the password I knew was correct stopped working.
And on both it was that for whatever reason the OS suddenly decided that my keyboard was in a different language and a reboot fixed it.
i was about to say - linux doesn't have issues with passwords working, but sometimes keyboard/region settings don't apply properly (though US ANSI is the fallback in most cases). i've had issues with keymaps or locale settings not applying globally (tty vs terminal emulators in X vs gui apps) which is silly but i understand why it happens. that said, i'm UK so it usually defualts to a US keymap
@@ashlyy1341 For some reason, on every distro an DE combo I have found, lockscreen keyboard layout will *always* be english US. Which sucks if you use Z or Y in your password and wonder why it doesn't work here
@@dustojnikhummer i've not noticed this but i've also not daily driven linux in a while. i want to say i managed to get it working with a uk keyboard across everything like 10 years ago, but i can't remember
Yeah I tried manjaro once on my laptop and it was wack, so I ended up just going with mint which was a good decision as it seems to be one of the best out of the box easy to use distributions, plus it doesn't force snap packs on you like ubuntu.
Mint is close enough to windows for people to be comfortable with it while still having enough of linux's jank still present to get them to think a little if they want to do more than just watch youtube and do some emails. I've had a few annoyances using it but nothing on the level of what linus was dealing with, and I'd rather have the annoyances than keep using spycrosoft's os.
@@Ashendal my thoughts too. I have no idea why they didn’t go with something like mint. Because that’s what the average user would be using
._. Stop trying to be boutique. The Manjaro devs don't know what they're doing. The mint devs only kinda know what they're doing because they got pwned multiple times and learned the hard way. Just use a major distro and modify it
@@Ashendal Me and my dad personally use Pop_Os and/or Zorin OS atm. I am considering getting Feren OS for myself but am still researching stability and such of these 3 good options. We tried Mint but the Cinnamon desktop it came with just felt so dated with the icons, "taskbar" equivalent, etc. to start with style wise that we weren't massive fans of it.
Manjaro _was_ a great distro, about 2 years ago.
I've had that same login issue in both linux AND windows 10.
Type i the thing... works. Try next boot up... does not. Maybe I mistyped it? Try again.. same deal. Try letter by letter... same deal.
Restart it... same deal... repeat... over and over again.
Restart it once more... works right out of the gate... This is definitely NOT a linux exclusive issue, but it IS an issue that EVERY SINGLE TIME just gets attributed to "you got your password wrong, it's not our fault".
It's a "oh FFS, I have like three 20+ digit passwords, and I checked which one I used where, and each character in it... and it stil says I got it wrong,... until somehow it says that's the right one?"
Watching these guys talk about this makes me realize I'm going to have a job for a long time.
Just give them some time, it's like learning a language pretty much
@@moister3727 Dude... it really is. The issues they're talking about are the ones I had in circa 2000/2001 with debian. Are their problems real? Yes. Are their problems borne out of living in a windows ecosystem for so long? Also yes. I just wish their attitude was less "this is linux fault" and more "omg tech is all based on microsoft, wtf." It's a real bummer to listen to, but it really sells short how strong the linux ecosystem is because they're judging on a non-native basis. Total bummer, makes me sad. linux so so good now. :'(
@UCFdp5lxm6icieOV6sxOoTTg Shut up bot.
@@jacobrzeszewski6527 Just report it, ape together strong.
@@aaronmillisor4474 what the fuck. you guys really do just have your heads up your asses, huh. "you haven't used Linux for 20 years you cant give your subjective opinion on how it compares to windows" yes, yes they can. the whole point is to see how it is from a NEW USERS perspective, not from the perspective of someone who is #notlikeotherusers. if you cannot get an operating system and find guides on how to solve your problems then that operating system is by no means a part of a strong or healthy "ecosystem". its especially bad when the solutions to the problems you are having are just kept from you due to an elitist attitude of "I did it myself so you have to do it yourself" or "you shouldn't want to do that". linux users need to grow the fuck up and realize that their operating system isn't sunshine and rainbows compared to windows.
I still can't wrap my head around his pick of distro.
Hopefully he will explain in the videos. I believe off of some users on redit he started with PopOS except there is a package bug in steam that corrupts x11 if you install it without updates.... he came back to a black screen.
Anthony used Pop_Os! I wonder why they didn't pick something Ubuntu based knowing Anthony has been showing it off on their channel for a while
I can, Imagine this: You never had a certain ice cream flavor, and you wanna try it out. But the problem is, there are too many flavors and you don't know where to start. That's the problem us regular users have when we want to try out Linux.
Because Arch is perceived as "the cool kid" of Linux, but requires a lot of effort on the part of the user, thus the suggestion of "user-friendly Arch-based distros" came up, which inevitably leads to Manjaro.
Honestly if he wanted something modern but stable, he should’ve gone with Fedora or SUSE, since they’re quite up-to-date, and don’t have as many pitfalls as a rolling-release distro.
I love this whole series, because here are 2 people who are very much techies, not your average windows user, and they still have problems with Linux. Every 6 months or so I try out Linux, and it still hasn’t made it yet. I think the SteamDeck will be cool, but that’s a highly optimized version, almost like calling Mac OS a distro of BSD.
i try it more often than that and always revert to windows because of really stupid issues or my need for programs that arent available on it (MS Office)
Had a friend in linux software design, he said what makes linux run so stable in his work environment (geological survey equipment), was the fact they ran distros compiled for the specific machine from the kernel up. However the amount of know how necessary is immense. Programming knowledge is required.
I mean, what’s your point here? You’re compiling an entire system from the ground up. Of course programming knowledge is required!
Really its not, I have people that don't know where the Windows control panel is who have been running Linux happily for over a decade (Ubuntu)
@@MrYossarianuk truth is its about skillsets. If you consider the complexity of each system by and large linux is easier to learn. But its like trying to teach someone to use a new simple filing system vs the old complex one they are used to and used for most their life... You'll see where the real difficulty lies.
Pop! OS, Linux Mint, or even Ubuntu would have been a better starting point than Manjaro. This is just going to push Linus away from the operating system, in the future
IMHO as somewhat newbie Linux adopter, Manjaro is not at all bad in the Cinnamon flavor. If you train on Mint first, it will be smooth and better even. Just not switch to non lts kernels and you will be mostly fine. Till now after checking all other fancy desktop enviroments I decided to stick with Cinnamon. For me it just works and I am able to do anything I had on windows with ofcourse finding the right linux tools to do it and even much more. I had a love hate relationship at the beginning with Linux but the more I begin to understand how it works and seeing the vast tools that are available for free it just amazes me and I love it. I will never go back to Windows although I have to use it at least at work. In summary if you want your computing needs met without research and learning, Linux is not really for you. It has indeed a steep learning curve. In every other aspect it just might be. Arch base works very good for me on Manjaro Cinnamon edition. Good mix for mimicing all I needed earlier from my windows boxes.
Linus tried Pop! Os but hit a nasty bug....
Manjaro _can_ be a good starting point depending on user, but the way Linus expects things to work, he's easily more an Ubuntu (or derivative) kind of guy.
If someone seriously approached me with the question for a beginner Linux distro, I'd probably make them fill out an 8 question questionnaire first or disclaim that I actually know for sure.
My experience with Mint has been... choppy. It was choppy in a core2 duo, it was choppy in an AMD FX processor (that ran windows 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 just fine'), it was choppy in that same system with an added R9 280, it was choppy in a thinkpad xz220 with a i5 2520m and integrated graphics, it was choppy in an r5 2500u. With anything from 19 to 20.02. Tried each with different DEs too, just in case.
No matter what I tried, Ubuntu and windows were both slower, used more resources but didn't have frames suddenly taking 5-20x as long as others and feeling choppy on the basic "navigate the desktop" experience. I mean, mint works, sometimes better than ubuntu, but the user experience suffers A LOT.
I used it on an older system & it was fine
Here's an interesting experience. I've been running Manjaro exclusively for a few years now, and it's been one of those really zen, zero problem kinda experiences. I suggested to my friend that he try it on his computer. He's also a Linux enthusiast and has been running Ubuntu for years. He had crazy issues with graphics drivers, suspend, some kind of memory leak, and a bunch of other things. It really surprised me. I guess I just got lucky! Both using GNOME by the way, KDE is just too much of a mess to make sense of.
Suspend and memory leak happened to me as well, but on different hardware they just didn't. I think for modern systems Manjaro might just lack certain compatibility that a user would need to patch in (which obviously is way beyond the scope of most).
The hardest part about anybody getting into Linux is the sheer number of distros. And then you ask one person what is the best one for a beginner and then they all just flood you with like seven different distros. Fucked up part is the core elements may be the same but every little thing about each distro varies. Could you imagine if there was 50 different distros of windows? 50 different pictures of Mac OS? It would be a nightmare. Yes, each distro does its own thing well. But you don't see a distro that can do all of it like another major OS can
Of course you can do everything on any Linux distro. Well, maybe you can't, but I can. All Linux distros work fundamentally the same. You just have to know Linux fundamentally to understand that. Little changes should not be insurmountable obstacles.
@gilkesisking You're trying to draw a parallel but it's really a false one. The only SKUs that are relevant to a consumer is Home and Pro, and even then the differences between the two are MINIMAL. The experience is 99% the same thing.
@gilkesisking Dude, stop. You're embarrassing yourself at this point. You know *full* well that most people must install Linux on their device because the market for Linux desktop OEM machines is practically non-existent, outside of Chrome OS devices. I bet even you had to install Linux on your machine and that it wasn't pre-installed for you. Restricting the argument to Linux OEM machines just to try to win it is sad.
I'm just gonna say it's probably a Manjaro problem. Manjaro isn't a good distro to use
Linus not understanding what a rolling release means to the stability of an OS. Hard Palm Face bro. Fedora doesn't have these issues. Hell, he could have probably used Suse and had a better experience.
OpenSUSE is like the worst distro for a desktop user because of their packaging policies
@@tannisroot Hyperbole.
Thank you for trying Linux and critiquing it, I think it's time for the community to wake up. There are certain fanboyism that hinders progress and it's frustrating to see, people telling you "why do you choose that game?" was one example.
That drag and drop problem you had is a bug with your archive manager, due to not being compatible with Wayland. They haven't fixed that in like 3+ years, I don't know why they haven't done it. From what I see in the community, certain fanbase of Linux hates new technology such as Wayland. Thus, not as much effort into it because the people are not as willing. What I'm saying here is if only the community could band up together and focus their manpower on one cohesive environment, we would get the best desktop ever. But all those fragmentation is like second nature to Linux, so I don't know if that's possible.
Edit : Clear up mistunderstanding.
@Watcher I can accept that, it's based upon real issues. But people who hate things because of fallacious thinking/prejudice, that one grinds my gear.
I think you are somewhat missing the problem. Developers in the Linux space often do dev work in their spare time and choose to work on stuff that makes them feel good / rewarding to them. In 95% of the cases (maybe more) that means not working on the 1,000,000 paper-cut level bugs that bother people and ruin UX. I used Gnome/Linux as a daily driver at both work and home for around 5 years and it doesn't just work. Sure you can invest 80 hours into learning how to get it to "just work" if you only want to do X, Y, Z and the packages available are known. That "magic recipe" is likely to be useless in 2 years. There will be a whole new set of issues to solve.
Dude, how much of an asshole you have to be to hate on Forged Alliance? It's a freaking great game.
@@skewty That drag and drop bug is really old, and there's a lot of people that complained about it. Also drag and drop is a basic task in Windows and Mac OS. I think it's not a paper-cut level at this point, it's a missing functionality.
Windows also has command lines, like Linus said, he knows how to use those in windows, but he's not the average user because the average user don't need cmd to have a practical way to do everything they need in windows. In linux the command line is sometimes the only practical way of doing a bunch of very simple things.
That may be very different in different distros ... You know, Linux really cant hide it's origin: it is a command line OS. It's the good version of MS DOS. Well, mostly.
@@inwoner7190 what does a "command line OS" mean?
@@ramzisabra9235 An operating system that only operates in text form. DOS for example, is a command line OS. Up until XP, Windows was just a GUI running on top of DOS, much like Linux is. The thing is, the moment Microsoft got away from building their OS that way things drastically improved.
@@madmatt2024 There's no such thing as a "command line OS". The command line is the sum total of an interactive shell, the available tools (built in binary form), environment variables, a filesystem to allow logging, and an interface to allow executables to send / receive text to / from the console. It's a user-facing abstraction. The same operating system can have a display server and then offer buffers and handles for executables to utilize. These are the fundamentals of any OS. Android uses the Linux kernel as does GNU - does that mean that Android is a "command-line OS"?
@@ramzisabra9235 So you play dumb just to bait people and then try to make them look dumb? What a miserable excuse for a person you must be.
I have not had a more radically inconsistent experience than with Manjaro compared to other distros. Haven't tried vanilla Arch, but my issues with Pop_OS! have been fairly diagnosable compared to my numerous Manjaro problems that I still cannot understand to this day. The only distro I've had zero issues with is elementary OS
Manjaro was never a good distro
For me the best just works distro has been endeavour and plain arch where I setup everything to work just like I want to
If Linus is using manjaro still, that's the whole issue. I moved out of manjaro pretty quickly. It's absolute crap.
Manjaro is bloat XD
@KingInTheNorth do u have a PC from the late 90s?
Everyone says that about every distro. When you have a problem with distro X, you are told, "that's because distro X is garbage. You should be using distro Y". So you switch to distro Y, encounter a different issue, and get told "oh no wonder you're having issues, distro Y just sucks, you'd have a way better time with distro Z". Rinse and repeat until you eventually decide to switch back to Windows.
@@notnullnotvoid lol in a nutshell why linux will never be mainstream
@@notnullnotvoid actually if you are a Windows User and want Windows control centre and KDE then truely the most polished one is openSUSE. The Desktop experience has all the things solved, Linus complaint about. I cannot believe it wasn't even a choice, when selecting the distribution, even so they started KDE
Anyone knows about a video where they have more details? I'm really curious about two things they mentioned:
- Not being able to force close apps: thats weird. Linus said that he used KDE, and there you get a Force Close prompt when you try to close an unresponsive app.
- Not being able to drag files from zip into a folder: Even this works out of the box on KDE (with Dolphin and Ark installed, which is the default everywhere afaik)
Seeing everyone say "If only he had picked x distro instead" is unfortunate. That is exactly the problem Linux has. (Saying this as a long time user).
Right? Everyone here saying "oh well he shouldn't have used Manjaro" but when I had issues with Kubuntu guess which distro people were suggesting I use instead?
yeah, I don't really understand the point of "you should have used x, y is notorious for being the worst distro". especially when there are 100 people saying slight variations that cover the entire spectrum of Linux distros. are all of them the worst? is it elitism? ignorance?
Popular, well supported distributions are reasonably well known. For those who need and/or prefer others, it's good to have the choice.
@@Critical3rror I think it's partly wilful ignorance. People believing that, since their setup works for them, it works for everybody. It's also partly defending Linux by blaming the user, of which you see a LOT of in the Linux community. "Linux is perfect; you suck because you installed the wrong distro/chose the wrong DE/didn't use the command line/didn't do X/Y/Z ."
Everytime I try linux, I get loads of problems. Maybe it's because of the way I use my computer (I install a lot of stuff, try out a lot of programs, etc...). But I get loads of problems like Linus, every single time. In the end I just stuck with windows and appreciate the ease of use.
Retropie got me into Pi's and Linux. It was all meh until Twister OS. Twister has themes, mine is set to look like a Mac. GUI, and menus, icons for settings. It's an extremely Windows like experience. Really don't need the terminal. Point is it's so easy to fix with a fresh copy. 4 pi4's, 4 screens, 2 Twister OS's, 1 Android. One Pi is running 2 screens, that one is for CZcams. The single screen Pi4 is for games. The Android one for Googleplay tv shows and apps. I keep a backup Twister for reformatting. It's not Linus level gaming or video editing. I don't think there's any reason to miss windows with Twister and blue screen of death type screwups take about 5 minutes to fix, while keeping everything else functional.
@@pgtmr2713 don't get me wrong, linux is awesome, I use raspberry myself and have job experience working with linux servers. For work, linux is all you need to be honest. But when I try using it on my personal computer, it just requires so much maintenance I got tired...
@@slicebattle What is this maintenance you speak of? Updating? I hardly ever. Close to a year and a half.
After testing like 5 different file managers I can recommend only Nemo. It allows opening directory as a root, quick "open in terminal" option, you can expand any directory (tree-like) without actually entering it, sftp worked for me out of the box. Shows disks space (used/total) by default just like windows.
nemo is kinda bae, but thunar is where it's at
I had to google "bae meaning". "Before Anyone Else" apparently.
Luke, that's not a feature of mint, it's the Cinnamon DE
What is the default desktop environment of Linux Mint?
@@leonardusl5141 cinnamon. the default file manager is nemo, which is the best imo. Dolphin used to be god like circa 2012, but yeh. thunar is preddy good too, but missing generic search bar/button so for some (ie me) i had to switch to nemo
Linus really shouldn't have swapped to Manjaro. It breaks way more often than any other distro I've used.
All the Arch distros are for masochists. They're not happy unless they're troubleshooting. They welcome bugs. Keeps it interesting.
@@1pcfred was about to disagree, and then I remembered that I spent around 5 hours in getting all the functions of my g14 working when I first got it
@@1pcfred For once, I agree with you.
@@1pcfred Arch is awesome and while it is a pain for an inexperienced user to setup, in my experience it does not break.
Manjaro on other hand, updating breaks it
not for me. these major update distros like ubuntu break more often. especially if you have some 3rd party PPAs, which i guess linus would need a lot for his unique setup
"Opening a zip file is easy, you just have to do a quadruple backflip while reciting an ancient druid chant."
In my experience LINUX works best in 2 scenarios. 1) the default, generic settings and apps are all that you need or....and my preferred...2) you build your system starting with a minimal/server install of your distro of choice and work out the kinks as you go. It can be challenging as you go through it, however once complete you rarely have any issues and if you do you will already know how to resolve it.
Linux is really feels like a community more than an os. There almost feels like a bunch of small camps can’t decide the way forward. That’s great in some respects. I’ve learned to dance between GUI and command line, but to the average joe it makes Linux feel way too complicated. Don’t get me wrong there are distros like mint that aim for a more easy going familiar interface experience, but they feel incomplete and constrained. Btw I’ve grown up on Linux and have been using the platform since I was 14 years old.
And as long as it continues like that, it never will be a desktop is for the regular user
Hard disagree, I would argue that for the average Joe that just uses his PC for mails, surfing, writing, Linux is more user-friendly and surprisingly even easier to install and configure. Yes, if you want or need specific stuff, like what Linus is doing, Linux gets way more complicated, especially if you aren't used to it, and there are some things that Linux just doesn't do well, like gaming (specifically anything with anti cheat) or some specific programs that some people need, but for the average Joe Linux is simply easier to use.
@@zomfgroflmao1337 Unfortunately I am not the average joe so my arch Linux experience was a nightmare plagued with problems that everyone told me to fix by “lol it’s easy to fix just read the wiki”… and it gets real tedious after hitting up the arch wiki 100 times every day. But yeah, for a regular person Linux is definitely easy.
@@XMansive Yeah, the moment you go under the hood, it gets complicated fast, but given that any average Joe wouldn't look there ...
Also people that say that problem-solving is harder on Linux, average Joe won't be solving any problems by himself on Windows either, so that argument is kind of moot.
@@zomfgroflmao1337 Linus gave an example of copying plugin files to OBS, that’s pretty average Joe user stuff that would have been a huge pain in the butt for someone who now has to troubleshoot and research how to copy files just to be told they shouldn’t want to do that… a lot of people just want to click on things for them to work and troubleshooting your OS / distro isn’t a valid step to take when you have a deadline for your job or want to play a game for an hour a day after work.
The windows manager/distro makes a huge difference on experience. I have found Linux Mint with Cinnamon is the closest to a Windows OOB/Clean install experience I have found. The biggest issue I see a non technical user having is the issue with privileges and 'sudo/gksu/etc..' required for pretty much any administration task. Force close apps? open terminal - sudo kill -9 - to find the pid - ps aux | grep .
Linux community has a disease and that disease is command line reliance. Its fine to have it for ultra advanced users, but even tech savvy folk or advanced users will avoid using it. They have this awful practice of not adding features because ehy it can be done in command line which either comes off as a bit prideful or lazy. Even I use cmd on windows from time to time, and go through regedit etc when needed so I'd say this is above just average tech savvy. But having to rely on it on Linux is just a big no. Manjaro is great but dolphin, as linus said, is kind of awful.
Command Line Reliance feels like pride more so than anything. It would only benefit the linux community if more people use it, and the vast majority of users (tech savvy and advanced users too) would look at that and go yeah no. More people that use linux the more support it would get from other companies its only a win-win yet it feels like they're still trying to die on the hill of the command line. Good to have but should never be necessary.
It's never going away. Even many gui applications are just a front end for applying terminal commands. And with the do it yourself mantra of foss, it's only expected that volunteers/people who make applications will make barebones cmd line applications with no gUI.
@@DivyeshVartha Im not saying terminal should go away, but reliance on it should be optional. Say what you want about windows you can use it perfectly well without ever even knowing the command terminal exists. And be considered and advance user.
Kinda wish they, the linux crowd, put more thought into the GUI. It would push the platform forward. But they're certainly stuck in their ways.
This is the whole problem. Fk command line
You're 100% right, but it's also beyond power users, it's stubborn stupidity. Like Linus and buddy said, you have people in the Linux community saying you should use the terminal to copy and paste files... those guys are fucking morons. It's waaay faster to copy and paste with mouse clicks than with typing, yet these people are so obsessed with the command line that they refuse to use the better option. What's worse is that these mouth breathers will ostracize other users for not doing the same.
@@MrShitthead I think its not fair to say they're morons, if anything its unproductive to be hostile to them. But it is true that there is a lot of pride involved. Alongside the better than you attitude.
Some linux distros even have absolutely insane design choices. As an example I tried pop OS last year and guess what? The Minimize and Maximize buttons were disabled and you had to go into terminal to activate them. Yes the only other way to min/max windows was to right click min max. For some reason someone thought adding an additional click was a good idea. And its this awfully inefficient mindset that often seeps into the linux community.
Most of these problems sound KDE specific. Definitely would not have started with that DE. Linus should have started with GNOME. It's much more beginner friendly. KDE is nice, sure, but definitely not for beginners.
Certain tweaked versions of GNOME are beginner friendly, like the one that ships with Zorin OS. Stock GNOME, on the other hand, like the one that ships with Fedora, is a bit of a mess for beginners. Other DEs like Cinnamon and Budgie are better, in my opinion.
The thing isnt rly all about 'for beginners'
Example he used, being able to drag files from a zip window into a normal file explorer window is pretty much considered standard practise in 2021, it should be included in a distro for both dummies and professionals.
Simple example but the point should be clear.
@@mr.gingerbread1194 he couldn't do that because he installed another DE's explorer into his system
coming from windows GNOME is a horrible choice for a beginner. it almost completly turned me off from Linux. I run xfce now
The Linux community is delusional sometimes “oh yeah it’s super easy” comes up so often. They don’t seem to understand that for example id like my Ethernet to just work. It wasn’t working, which is an issue cuz it doesn’t have WiFi and needs internet to install the damn os. The solutions I got ranged from “just use WiFi lol” to the most helpful being “you just have to run this sudo command every boot to get it to work temporarily, it’s super easy.” As much as I hate windows more and more lately I immediately reinstalled windows, at least my damn Ethernet port works when I boot my pc without an admin command now so that’s cool.
I feel like Linus should switch to Fedora. Gnome is super easy to use and beginner friendly while still looking nice, and fedora itself is a perfect balance of stable and bleeding edge in terms of updates imo
nnoo please, it uses wayland and everything crashed for me. noo please, f red hat
I agree. Fedora is the only distro that has given me a consistent, stable experience across multiple machines.
Ditto. Rock stable with RTX 3080 and easy to troubleshoot IMO with tons of information available online, and I am running at 120hz smoothly. Plus, as a bonus, multi OS is recognised automatically on install, even on a separate SSD boot drive. I don't care about customisation much, but Adwaita theming is generally more consistent than Windows, especially when it comes to title bars. (Note: Have tried PopOs before. Drivers just don't work for me on PopOs unfortunately, and I don't care to to troubleshoot using their proprietary guide, which I feel unintentionally inhibits the community aspect of posting problems and solutions). Flatpacks also work great on Fedora, which seems to me, the equivalent of app packages like from MacOs; it's pretty simple to install apps.
@@libremercadoencrisiseconom2118 you can choose x11 over wayland in Fedora you know
Last I tried Fedora, it kept crashing with BTRFS errors. They made BTRFS default because it's Fedora, it needs to adopt new technologies quickly. Plus graphical anomalies in GDM like the username of the user which I wish to log into disappearing for no reason. Add to that reports of kernel upgrades leaving the system unbootable and Fedora releases being unreliable soon after their release. I wasn't on Fedora long enough to experience the last 2, though.
Arch has been more reliable than Fedora, at least in my experience.
Manjaro on the other hand, well I can't say much about it, except that it isn't Arch, it uses it's own repos and that this makes it purportedly less reliable than Arch.
The "you shouldn't want to do that" anecdote sounds like MacOS. I've wanted to do loads of things on Macs and the forums all tell you not to because it's "power user stuff". Simple things like setting Time Machine to use a mounted network disk is a complete mare.
when was that? it's been years, still today with Monterey that my nas drive shows up in macos, I didn't have to do anything, the mounted network drive is hosted on freebsd truenas, it works perfectly, it's been that way since at least mountain lion if I remember correctly, maybe even earlier.
@@peterh7575 about six years I think since I had a personal (non work administered) MacBook
@@moopet8036 6 years ago, it would have been El Capitan (if you were keeping up with updating your OS). and back then, it should have worked fine with NAS devices and other mounts (samba, afs or nfs). Not sure what the hurdle was but should have worked as it is pretty standard. Oh well.
I think more people should try this challenge, it's sort of like reporting bugs and your exoeriences, I think it encourages devs to fix these issues and make the user experience better for everyone
I'm still waiting for SteamOS 3.0 release not going to lie
Yes finally people being honest about Linux..... I try to tell people this all the time
Don't bother trying.
I love using Linux on my desktop (outside of gaming which works fine but not if you are a VR junkie like me) but the stubborn community won't listen even if your points of critic are valid.
@@MegaManNeo I agree 100%. I work way to many hours to be trouble shooting why my game isn't running on Linux. I used to dual boot pop os. But windows is just the king of gaming especially if you play fps titles
I tried to daily drive Linux on my laptop because Windows was struggling with only 8GB of RAM, but all the hoops to have a comparable experience were so discouraging that I switched back to Windows soon after upgrading the RAM.
Linux is like the promised land. It never delivers on it's promises. Maybe because it's community is filled by gatekeeping weirdos that prevent it from any reasonable upgrades and changes.
@@Vekikev1 Linux, making computers great again
@@Vekikev1 I don't really think it's fair to blame the weirdos. It's a lot of things that feedback. There's very little money in desktop linux development because there are very few users and even fewer that actually support development. Most of the corporate development is on the server side because that's where the money is. Since there's no money in desktop linux, it's a very few people putting together a project that works for them. They don't have teams of UI/UX designers like Apple does and it shows. Even windows has janky features because the money for windows is in enterprise and all they care about is the enterprise volume licensing and support deals. These things come through.
@@vika3750 Both you and Vekikev are right... while I LOOOOOVE making fun of the weirdos that plague the Linux community, I actually do want Linux to succeed because Apple is horrible and Microsoft is only a bit better than them.
However, while you're right that Linux doesn't have the same funding and dedicated UX teams, there is constantly a big push and pull between people in the community that want stream lined UX and those that want to force users to use the terminal or stfu, the terminal zealots are WAAAAY louder. I've seen it happen countless times where a distro releases an update with better UX only to have the community lose their god damned minds because they think somehow not forcing users to use the terminal is sacrilegious.
I really feel that the Linux community work against themselves by recommending that newbies go for thing like Manjaro and other more advanced / less easy setups.
Ubuntu cops a lot of flack, but credit where it's due: it's rock solid stable and every tutorial you find will work for it.
Same for Linux Mint.
This. People should not underestimate the amount of already existing questions answered online with popular systems like ubuntu. To me Xubuntu or Kubuntu would be my first choices over anything else