In this geek rant I discuss the pros and cons of each lightsaber form. Like me on Facebook! / youtubeantoinebandele Follow me on Twitter! / antoinebandele
So, let's see if I got this right. Form I: Shii-Cho Fairly balanced form made to handle multiple opponents, but weak against 1v1 forms Form II: Makashi Highly offensive form used to bypass a single person's defense, weak against strong opponents or force combat users and lacks defense. Form III: Soresu Purely defensive form with almost no true counter, only weakness is it's own user as they must break defenses to attack as the form lacks any actual offensive capabilities. Form IV: Ataru Highly offensive speed form using quick bursts of agility to rush single opponents, Weak against defensive users like Soresu and multiple opponents as well as taxing on stamina. Form V: Djem-So Form that perfectly balanced offense and defense used by those of great strength, weak against defensive and fast opponents and drains the user's stamina. Form VI: Niman Truly balanced form without any strength or weakness that allows user to freely use the force, user may still be defeated by particularly talented lightsaber combatants. Form VII: Juyo/Vaapad Completely offense focused form that lacked any defense and is made to tackle single opponents head on by using both the strength and speed of the user as well as their emotions and drive to win, weak against force users and agile duelists due to lacking any sort of counter. Juyo users are likely to lose themselves in battle while Vaapad users, while more collected, do not carry the same amount of force as Juyo.
Also to say it’s weak against force users is laughable. Makashi is the best form to use against the force heavy Niman. This wasn’t a well done description of Makashi. It’s the mirror version of Djem So, balances between offense and defense, but where Djem So is powerful, Makashi is precise
The definitive masters of each form of lightsaber combat, as of the Clone Wars era: Form 1- Kit Fisto Form 2- Count Dooku Form 3- Obi-Wan Kenobi Form 4- Yoda Form 5- Anakin Skywalker Form 6- Darth Sidious Form 7- Mace Windu Accurate, or not?
Proud Posiedon I agree, Exar Kun is *the* definitive master of form 6, of all eras. In my opinion, Sidious isn't so much a master of Niman as he's a master of *all* forms of lightsaber combat, but it's easier to say he's a master of Niman for the sake of simplicity.
No Darth Zannah for Soresu, no Grievous for Jar'Kai, and no Exar Kun for Niman? Shame on you Antonine :P Besides that, this is still probably my favorite video on the lightsaber forms on youtube. Moderately surprised you made no comment about the Three Rings of Defense, or the Strong, Medium and Fast forms of the NJO, but still the best on youtube that I've seen :)
Loved the video, I'm a Lightsaber Form Enthusiast myself. My one question is with your Soresu practitioners. I disagree with you putting Darth Traya/Kreia in there. In Kotor II she seemed to find the form distasteful when you ask her about it. She talked about it rather negatively, saying that it "merely delays the inevitable." (I always took offense when she said that because Soresu is my favorite form :D)
That is true I think she is more Niman in my opinion or Makashi as she can still beat you at lightsaber combat but use force residence it helps against her as that is where I got the Niman theory from
Alexmustand87 My thoughts exactly. Her force abilities are her strong point, she would pick a style that gives her freedom to crush someone with her powers or blast them with force lightning. And the fact that she only has one hand to hold a lightsaber makes me believe that she would use Makashii as well, seeing that it is an excellent one-handed form. Plus it plays into her technical and perfectionist attitude.
I think that is why Revan is a Niman specialist as Kriea may know the form like you said about her freedom to use force lightning in combat Man we know Darth Traya to well lol
Antoine Bandele Hehe yeah you should, I was sitting there gaping "Now where's Zannah?" ;) Great video otherwise though, really fun to hear your thoughts. Personally I think a mix between form V, form III and form IV would suit me the best, using V as a base and the other two as required. Considering the fact that I'm a gym-nerd, form V is perfect for me. I might add some VII in there aswell - when the situation requires, but most of the time I think Djem So can see you thorugh.
+Chandler Kittelman Let's look up the exact definition of Form V as quoted from "The Essential Guide to the Force" BEGIN CITATION: Form V's Shien variation exploits the ability of the lightsaber to block a blaster bolt, and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberatly toward an opponent. Form V's Dejm So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling. END CITATION. Source: "The Essential Guide to the Force" Let's cross reference that with "The Jedi Path." BEGIN CITATION: ... they developed Shien, a style that deflected blaster fire but redirected the bolts back along chosen vectors to make out attackers and other targets of opportunity. The Shien Barrier of Blades technique creates a tunnel of lightsaber energy to ricochet enemy fire in every direction for maximum damage. Djem So follows the same philosophy of turning an enemy's attack back on him or her, but is optimized for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.Its signature move is the fluid riposte, which deflects a forceful enemy attack and immediately counterattacks. END CITATION. Source: "The Jedi Path." So yes, Shien was specifically designed for blaster deflection, not lightsaber combat. That's where Djem So came into play. Also, I never insinuated that Shien came from Djem So. Quite the opposite is true. While there is an argument to Shien being adapted to lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, this video was the examination of the foundations of each form as they related to lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.
+harak salazar It's not difficult to understand: shien is used to redirect blaster bolts along CHOSEN vectors, that's where the technical part comes into play. A user of shien has to THINK how he's going to redirect those blaster bolts. The same concept goes when one uses shien ,ill-advised, in lightsaber-to-lightsaber fights, you CHOOSE whether to simply brush off a strike, or put some muscle into it and force it out of the way to make room for your counter.
+Antoine Bandele after seeing videos like this its clear that Djem So and Juyo share many similarities to European medieval long sword practice and philosophy (ill post an example from a scholar who goes into detail about the german longsword training philoshopy below in two comments) *(Similarties to Juyo) "Those who fence "to the touch" often forget that survival is the primary objective of a sword fight. It is one thing to strike your opponent without regard for your own safety, but quite another to defeat your opponent and be able to walk away unscathed. Merely standing in a guard is not an effective defense. Liechtenauer and all of the masters who followed in his tradition taught that the best way to keep your opponent from hitting you is to hit your opponent first. Therefore you should do your best to maintain the initiative and not simply wait around to react to an attack that may be unpredictable. However, if survival were only a matter of who strikes first, then there would be no need to learn fencing, as whoever is fastest and luckiest will always win. If your opponent takes the initiative you must do everything in your power to take it back. This concept is known as being in the vor (the "before" time) or the nach (the "after" time). If you are in the "after" timing, you must try to regain the "before" as soon as possible by defending and going back on the offense. Movement is the most important element of defense. Stepping out of the way of attacks, known as voiding, and immediately attacking from your new position is one of the more efficient means of defense. Unfortunately, voiding alone is not always effective, as quite often your opponent will change the angle of his attack to follow you. So, although, you should not feel that you must make blade contact with your opponent, you will often need to do so in order to set it aside as you void. Remember, you are fighting your opponent, not your opponent's sword. Do not strike the weapon without attacking the person as well. Liechtenauer clearly states"
+Antoine Bandele Interesting. Granted, it's because of my lack of information and possibly bad research back in 2007, but I always thought that certain parts of Shien (the blast bolt blocking aspect) was actually the basis of how Soresu works because of the rise of blasters and masters could utilize certain aspects into lightsaber combat like how Obi-Wan utilized it.... Good thing I watched this video then. Learn something new everyday. Thanks for all of the useful information and your input that you've given in this video.
My favorites would be Soresu and Ataru. Soresu for obtaining more time for rational thinking during a fight and survive against more experienced duelists (those that don't give too much room of opportunity to their opponents), Ataru for making chaos since it's a whirlwind of lightcuts. I believe a good application of this duo would be to use Soresu to stay live until the opponent reaches their limits, then counterattack quickly with Ataru when risk is lower.
Honestly I think a complete mastery of Niman, Form 6, would be what I’d like. Pick and choose what mix of the other forms for what’s best in each individual fight, while mixing in Force abilities seamlessly
@@charleswist2104 Me too! I would fuse the forms I, III, IV, V and some parts of Vaapad to it for a great balance. I would also maybe even add some Jar'Kai when I get the opportunity to. Let me explain why I chose these forms: 1) Since Djem So has a "balance" between its offence and defence, I'll take that part of it as my first one. 2) Ataru's speed can be used to confuse your opponents, so I'm adding that feat from it. 3) I wanna take Soresu's unbreakable defences and apply its defensive strategies when I'm on the defensive. 4) I'm integrating Vaapad's control over the fight for 1v1's only, never for multiple opponents. 5) I gotta add some Jar'Kai to my training since it's effective against multiple opponents and it is able to do offence and defence simultaneously. 6) Niman is my own choice mostly due to the balance of it, and other reasons are because it's barely seen at all in the movies. 7) I also gotta add some Force abilities, I use them when I'm about to lose a fight yet I wanna stay alive.
wait a second shouldn't makashi be able to work its way around soresu's defense because that's what count dooku did during his fight with obi wan kenobi in star wars episode II of the movies also shouldn't djem so potentially be able to break soresu's defense if the djem so user is powerful enough with the form
One thing one should remember is that at the time of the attack of the clones was that obi wan was still learning and mastering the style at that time. After the duel obi wan the mastered soresu to near perfection, even beyond any other master plus obi wan then mastered and practiced other forms to make his style his own and this made him practically untouchable in a pute lightsaber duel, so the battle of obi wan and dooku was basiclly almost like a learning curve for obi wan so besides that one battle no other practitioners have really been able to defeat a soresu master.
Also, what Kenobi used on Geonosis was still Form IV Ataru with elements of Form I Shii Cho. It was only during the rescue of the Chancellor that he showed Dooku his mastery of Soresu, just as Anakin concealed his own mastery of Djem So. Kenobi would only become purely Soresu in his final duel with Vader.
Green Acorn This is kinda confusing lol. I'm trying to think my way around it like "does rock mean defense or kinetic attack or does scissors mean offense or balanced,etc,etc". Would you mind explaining it
+Antoine Bandele nah, his form is definitely breakdancing. HE IS THE MASTER OF GETTIN DOWN! now im imagining gervious beating the crap out of jedi with the power of dance.... its awesome haha
Antoine Bandele he also relied on fear tactics to make Jedi panic and attack him head on rather than use force powers which he was susceptible to. Hence the spinning blades
+daeshawn kenway it becomes a battle of stamina, and if you are of another race, one with more stamina, you have an amazing advantage against a soresu Master. Soresu can be used to great advantage when pared with another style, such as Niman, when used with a saber staff, or when you use direct force attacks to aid in your eventual counterstrike.
Personally I think the perfect style would be Form V Djem So as a dedicated and Form III Soresu as a supplemental. Since Djem So already has high impact strength and solid defense so if you could sharpen the defense with Soresu and correlate your usage of your force pool appropriately over the course of a battle you could be nigh unstoppable or immovable (literally).
2 yrs, i know. In my opinion Soresu isnt good supplement when your primarly form is Djem so. Far more useful would be Makashi as a back up form. Strength doesnt work, try finesse.
I think that Form VII Juyo with Form III Soresu as a supplemental would even more op because Juyo has fast powerful strikes and is the only known form that can break Soresu's defense. Since only very few have known to master or use Juyo, I would have to agree that Form V Djem So and Form III Soresu would make a person unstoppable.
***** But the ideal Ataru user is quick and agile. Like Yoda or Shaak To or Ahsoka. Qui-Gon was more strength based, causing the openings. If you look at what Ataru is with agile focused duelists, their speed covers openings to where they can out pace Makashi. Plus speed generates kinetic energy, which Makashi struggles with defending against.
From what I know Makashi doesn't have any problem with generating speed. In fact it's the oposite, Makashi is very speed-oriented style. The problem with Makashi lies with strenght-based attacks, thats is why Makashi masters can only redirect power blows (like Dooku did against Anakin) and can't take them head on or else they would get tired very fast.
cichy45 But all the Ataru duelist has to do is use their speed to close in and the Makashi duelist is going to struggle. Because the Ataru duelist stays constantly moving, attacking. Where Makashi tries using leverage to pick their spots. It's why Dooku struggled against Dooku. Because Yoda was constantly pressing the offensive, but not creating huge openings.. That's what Makashi struggles against. Many forget that Ataru uses fast moves, but are supposed to keep their lightsaber near their guard range. Not like Juyo, where the strikes are wild, wide slashes
The problem is that Ataru does in fact create openings. Yoda is exceptional, because his small size and very advanced force valour made him extremely hard to target. Dooku actually criticized Ataru for it's acrobatics and stated that he can counter Ataru by launching a series of thrusts toward the enemy's legs to draw the opponent into a flipping overhead leap, so that he could burn through the enemy's spine with his Makashi attack. Another factor is that Ataru was not effective in prolonged combat, because of how tiring it was. So either Ataru master could take down enemy fast of he wouldn't be able to take him at all. Makashi on the other hand was all about conserving energy and economy of movement, which gives big advantage in long duels.
I really appreciate your videos. I've watched others such as Jennasari and EvanNova who have a very in depth background analysis but zero charisma in their delivery. You videos are well spoken, and have a very clean and well formatted edit. Keep doing what you're doing, you're good at it.
+Andyr Rafael may favorite examples of a non force user beating a Jedi or Sith would be when Jag Fel (if I remember his name correctly) tricked a dark jedi into using the force to take his blaster away. The blaster was rigged to explode if it was to far way from him. he was able to hide the fact that it was a trick until it was to late by having a disciplined mind, and was able to use a jet pack to close the gap between him and the dark Jedi before she could recover. killed her by snapping her neck with Mandalorian crush gauntlets. the other involved a guy dual wielding blasters against a group of Sith (note that this individual had a weak but stronger than average connection to the force and had a Jedi knight assisting him). he used a lot of combination attacks with his partner as well as dirty fighting to get around their defenses. examples being throwing dirt and rocks into his opponents eyes, using unarmed combat to avoid getting killed by lightsabers, sacrificing a weapon to bypass an opponents guard, and my personal favorite distracting an opponent to leave them vulnerable to a force push from his Jedi partner and then shooting them while they were off balance.
I think you missed out on naming Darth Malgus as a Master of Form V it was his Holocron that Vader studied and his application of D'Jemso to further his (Vader) studies in the form. Great video as always
They clash too much. They not mix well. The only good use of it would be a Form III opening with Form VII finish. But you’d dimish your master in both because you can’t set yourself into its highest performance because they have opposing mentalities and philosophies.
Has there been any lightside characters that used form 2? As far as I'm aware, it's all dark side users like the second sister, the grand inquisitor and count dooku.
Never realized till now Shi-cho could be specially effective against Jar'kai taking into account Fisto's duel with Grievous and it's focus on disarming
I loved how you could clearly see Form IV in Qui-Gon when he faced Darth Maul. He was constantly on the offensive and pushing him back, with very wide, open swings and lots of forward momentum.
2 questions (both regarding Form VII) 1. A basic prerequisite for studying Form VII is high level mastery of other forms. So what in your opinion would be the best foundation for Form VII? 2. What do you think of a hybrid fighting style of Juyo and Soresu?
Assuming ( if i was a jedi ) I was powerful in the force, I'd probably go with Niiman as my primary with most focus placed there, while also learning Soresu for when dealing with very offensive and powerful opponents. Once proficient enough in those two would begin to specialize in form 7 for those occasions you come across other Soresu specialists who you don't have the time for a lengthy battle with. I'd say that covers the spread quite nicely.
I appreciated your analysis, it mirrored many of my thoughts on the forms, and I really liked how you compared the intricacies of their strengths and weaknesses.
+Jensen Taylor obi wan was a former 4 and then he went to 3 while keeping some aspects of form 4 his master qui gon was a pure form 4 specialist so he taught obi wan form 4
Antoine Bandele Yes it would be very hard but think of a being that is thousands of years old (Darth Plagueis), they could possibly combine all forms together. I mean they'd be completely unstoppable in saber combat
This video helped a lot, especially with me choosing forms I want to study. The forms I'm studying are the forms I relate to the most, in which so happen to be mastered by my favorite Jedi and Sith (Shii Cho - Kit Fisto; Makashi - Count Dooku.).
+Antoine Bandele I tried looking into the other forms, but they never interested as much. I'm not the type of person who is interested in strength-based forms like Djem So, or highly defensive forms like Soresu. I may look into other forms in the future, possibly Ataru. Vaapad and Juyo are just too overly offensive and can't be risked. Niman, on the other hand, is hard to think about because of the fact that the force in Star Wars isn't real.
I would use one long saber and one short saber with two hands. I would use form V, VII and a bit of III. My fighting style would be very reminiscent of Pontiff Sulyvahn from Darksouls 3.
In my opinion Soresu is the best. Although there is a lot defense in it you wait for them to slip up. I heard someone say that this with force lightening would probably be the most unstoppable combat, which could be true in some ways I suppose. I heard that Soresu Masters may have to meditate (I'm not sure if that's true or not). Soresu can defeat any form. I think Soresu can beat Ataru because since Soresu is based around defense and waiting for them to slip up, Ataru is used to kill people easily and use critical hits. In the Phamtom Menace, the first Star Wars movie if your remember Qui Gon Jinn against Darth Maul, Qui Gon Jinn as you know uses Ataru. So by the time when it was Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jinn Qui Gon was probably tired beyond believe which made him get killed. Although, Darth Maul uses Juyo/Vaapad. Soresu has no weakness except for Form Seven but as you said no Soresu Master has been killed in lightsaber to lightsaber combat by a Form Seven user. If you watch videos about the Soresu Lightsaber combat I heard that Soresu Masters like ObiWanKenobi can survive for a very long time. If you remember in Revenge Of The Sith, the third Star Wars movie Obi Wan Kenobi defeated DarthVader, Anakin Skywalker. Also, isn't Soresu mainly based around blaster deflection? A Soresu Master can hold up to 20 droids and with deflect it back the blaster bullets back to the droid (if you know what I mean). Soresu is probably based around Shien and a bit of Makashi but in a defensive way. Like I said previously about Soresu vs Ataru. If you're talking about the great Ataru master Master Yoda against the great Soresu Master Obi Wan Kenobi I bet many of you will say Master Yoda will win against Obi Wan. Many of you will say he's stronger than Obi Wan and you're probably correct. Imagine Qui Gon Jinn still alive but the same age as he was in The Phamtom Menace against Obi Wan Kenobi (Obi Wan a bit older not talking about when he was a Padawan). That to me is a great Ataru vs Soresu duel. Two good duelists. Although I did say imagine Obi Wan slightly older. I'm not being bias or anything but I think that Obi Wan Kenobi would win. The reason this is is because Soresu Masters can last quite a long time against any Lightsaber duelists. If Qui Gon Jinn wants to strike Obi Wan he will have to do a critical hit or a very fast hit in order to kill Obi Wan. It would be the same problem for Qui Gon Jinn possibly he would get tired and he would get killed against Obi Wan Kenobi.
+ChelseaFc Foreverandever Shien & Djem so were created because some viewed Soresu as not offensive enough to combat. Also, I agree with you, Soresu, is a complet defense both againt blaster and lightsaber, the only problem is that there is no attack maneuvers at all, just defense, not that is bad, but against a enemy that has lots of endurance and stamina, A soresu user would be in trouble. Force powers are also a pretty good advantage against Soresu, as it's masters have to focus only in the form to near perfection, leaving their guard down, to force powers, and we can see this in Obi. In episode 3 when he and Ani fought against dooku, It was too easy for dooku to pass through the force wall of Obi, so much that he did twice. Even though we are talking about DOOKU, if a average force user can trespass your force wall, then you are pretty much doomed. The best form against Soresu for me is Indeed Form VII, as a full master of this technique (Say a Obi wan of Juyo) would obliterate his defense. Form VI Niman also is a good one, as a master of Niman is a master of Force powers, and even more dangerous as Obi stated himself " It's difficult to utillize the force as a weapon while also wilding a lightsaber too! have to practice more." Hope we can have a discussion about the lightsaber forms and force powers if possible. :D
+Andyr Rafael Soresu with force lightening would be very powerful. And yes Jedi can use force lightening, Luke Skywalker can even use force lightening I heard.
Yes, a jedi can, but it's nature is dark side, that's why jedi didn't used in the CW, giving pain and suffering to a living being is prohibited not only by the consil, but for a jedi's morals.
Can't quite agree that Makashi is weak against Ataru. Not because i'm Makashi fan or something like that, actually it's my least favorite form. But Ataru can create too much openings which for Makashi can be a heaven to explore. And I can't leave without pointing on your editing and style and design of your video which is the best as always.
+giorgi talikadze Makashi is horizontally adept but it is slow on the vertical. relies on foot work, dancing. flourishes are quick, sharp. focused. ataru is at it's weakest when grounded. hard not to flourish or completely evade evade everything. makashi fights opponants infront of the user, Ataru turns the user into a death-ball... which bounces. Makashi would be hard pressed to land a hit on an Ataru user, at the same time, the lack of a strong or reinforced blocking deffence against Atarus crazyness would make it difficult to stand against. both forms are often mixed as they take a complete oppisite approach to lightsaber combat, and thus cover each others weaknesses
I think Revan could be considered the 2nd best user of the form (not saying Revan is the very best fighter there ever was but there aren’t many examples of others who could top him easily).
Ataru is also used against multiple opponents. As said by yoda, but the user needs to be highly in tuned with the force. Basically it's all based on the practitioner.
The Definitive masters of each forms in Star Wars Form 1- Kit Fisto Form 2- Darth Tyranus Form 3- Obi-Wan Kenobi Form 4- Yoda Form 5- Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader Form 6- Darth Sidious Form 7 Mace Windu
Personally my favorite practinoners of these forms are Shii-Cho:kit fisto Makashi:count dooku Soresu:obi wan Ataru:Yoda Djem so: Anakin and Darth vader Niman:kao cen darrach and Darth sidious Juyo:darth maul Vaapad:mace windu
I'm so sorry for taking Historical European Martial Arts into the discussion, but the way I would apply Ataru against multiple opponents would be to create a danger zone, if you like, using the elaborate spins and the reach of the weapon as both a tool for offence and defence, similar to how the historical Iberian Montante is used. Constant and consistent movement, keeping assailants off my back whilst finding an opening in their formation, then, when the formation is broken, use the opportunity to take them out with blinding speed, ideally in a line.
If I were to place all Seven Forms from easiest to master to the hardest, I think it would be like this. Just because a Form is more manageable or more challenging to master does not mean that it is inferior or superior to another Form. 1: Soresu: While arguably the most sustainable form, the premise of Soresu is purely defensive, with absolutely zero use in an offensive scenario whatsoever. 2: Djem So: Almost as defensive as Soresu, Djem So does teach the user to read when his opponent is vulnerable and strike them. However, it is almost entirely based around strength, allowing the opponent to circumvent the power of the Form with precision or mobility. 3: Ataru: Ataru is arguably the most physically taxing of all the Forms and isn't sustainable for more than several minutes. Plus, its focus on attacking flanks is harder to grasp, rather than Djem So's focus on plowing through a defence. 4: Makashi: There is a reason Makashi is considered the most disciplined of all Forms, and its focus on stabbing, rather than slashing, is the source of that. Perhaps the second most sustainable form, besides Soresu, takes a lot of focus to use efficient movements over rapid and tiring strikes. 5: Juyo/Vaapad: I feel like these two Forms are the most dangerous to master, as they require the user to let their negative emotions flow, which could backfire in the worst way possible against the wrong kind of opponent. 6: Shii-Cho: While just as hard to master as Juyo and Vaapad, Shii-Cho relies on the user to give themselves over to the Force almost entirely, which takes a specific kind of person to achieve success. Plus, it is good in both offence and defence, whereas Juyo focuses on offence. 7: Niman: I find Niman to be the most intellectually demanding form, as it requires a specific mastery of how to apply the other Forms and knowing when to switch tactics. Niman takes an extraordinary kind of person to master it correctly, and that is why it is, unfortunately and wrongly, considered the weakest Form out of the Seven. I am more than willing to debate on this, as there are some forms I'm not 100% certain of with their placement.
I may be inclined to disagree with you on Ataru being better against Djem So. While I do agree with you saying that Ataru had alot more mobility against Djem So's rooted style, that is also a weakness of Ataru. Where Djem So users need alot less mobility, Ataru relies on its mobility. Essentially, you'd get a similar result of an Ataru practitioner going up against a Soresu practitioner: the Ataru user would get tired and let out too much energy, whereas a Soresu practitioner would be completely fresh and able to take down their opponent almost easily. Except in the case of Ataru vs. Djem So, the Djem So practitioner could attack back when he/she chose to.
Char Aznable Both being equally matched in skill is an incredibly rare occurrence but even then circumstances and chance have as much influence as form.
Char Aznable Every form obviously has both strengths and weaknesses because following a particular strategy necessarily precludes the use of others, which can then be used against you. However, if one form could always be beaten by another (on paper) then it would soon become redundant. If all these 7 forms survived, it's reasonable to assume they were all effective IF mastered. If someone lost a fight it was more likely due to their lack of skill which consequently didn't allow them to maximise the advantages of their chosen form while minimising the disadvantages. Discussing if Ataru can defeat Djem So is akin to asking if Karate can defeat Kung Fu. It all depends on the individuals... You effectively say as much in your own comments: _I think it comes down to a users speed._
Char Aznable Fair enough. Although, the OP's first line about Ataru being better than Djem So seems to imply just that... _I may be inclined to disagree with you on Ataru being better against Djem So._
I believe a Djem So user even with a lack of mobility could take a ataru user. Ataru does have more maneuverability and mobility but it has basically no defensive training thus Djem So could attempt to block a ataru users flip and spin attacks then immediately counter with his own power blow. but once again it depends on skill of the user
If I had to pick a form of lightsaber combat to specialize in, I think I would go with Djem So though also incorporating a little of other forms to make up for some of its weaknesses. What about you? Which lightsaber form would you say is the most attractive to you?
AizatXtreme 123 This may seem silly, but if you see it from this perspective: Form II: Duelist-Like warrior Form III: Sword and "Shield" warrior Form IV: Rogue (Considering how acrobatic and evasive this form is) Form V: Two-Handed Sword Warrior Form VI: Mage (since it insists on incorporating force-based attacks)
I think all these lightsaber forms would turn out irrelevant in a real fight and everyone would just swing their weapons like baseball bats like Luke in ROTJ.
Antoine Bandele I would also think that is a winning combination. Soresu to tire the opponent out and Makashi to finish him, right? Maybe it would also be possible to construct a lightsaber with a straight hilt that can be adjustet to be curved. I mean If you look at other kinds of fancy lightsabers that cant be too difficult. Then you could start with Soresu and when you see that your opponent is getting tired adjust the hilt and surprise him with a change of style AND a change of attacking angle. Wouldnt that be great?
Niman user here. I thought I'd be a Juyo practitioner for a long time, but realized that I value versatility and spellblading more than pure offense :)
That's why Anakin applied Ataru with his Dhem So to eliminate its flat footed weakness. Very smart. Why it's the practitioner, not the form that can succeed.
Well if I was gonna choose a style to master it would be djem so first, makashi, and then soresu. Djem so would provide the base and makashi would provide the more energy efficient fall back as well throwing off my opponent with my suddenly precise and economical movements. Soresu for my defense against ataru as well as coupling well with makashi for an all together more devastating one on one style.
Nice video as always, good analysis! I didn't even thought about the weaknesses or strenghts of some forms (e.g. Niman) because I wasn't interested in them. Now I see them from a different angle.
My lightsaber forms would be Form 2 Makashi, because I can be precise about my attacks and expose an enemy's weakness. Form 3 Soresu because it has perfect defence and it would tire my enemies when I keep defending my self and they would get tired. And Form 5 Djem So because it is strong with some decent defence to back it up. I would learn all of the 7 forms but forms 2, 3, and 5 would be my most used forms.
Christopher Lewis *Facepalm* He said in the video if I were to study those lightsaber forms, and use them as a Jedi those would be the forms I would choose!!
Makashi would actually be the last form I would learn, because it requires a degree of control that the other forms don't have. A Makashi master can send their blade exactly where they want it to go, whether it be to defend themselves or to poke at the other guy. I'd probably use Soresu or Niman the most. Let 'em come at me- I'll just block and defend and generally let my opponent wear themselves out, then switch it up and strike hard and fast and WIN.
Red Lylat Exactly. With those 3 you have a perfect trifecta, precision, defense, and power. They are definitely the best forms. IMO, Shii-Cho and Niman are too basic, and Ataru and Juyo/Vaapad are too stamina-consuming.
Were I a Lightsaber practitioner I would incorporate Forms 1-6, with an emphasis on Soresu, Ataru, and Djem-So. I'd also use Makashi so as to use it's deflection and redirection abilities.
I believe my style is like: Offence: Shii-Cho: Basis. Makashi: To exploit openings. Ataru: Ocasional acrobatics. Djem So and Juyo: Power strikes against inferior opponents. Defence: Makashi: To avoid meeting strikes head-on from superior opponents. Soresu: Block strikes from inferior opponents. Sokan: Manipulation of the terrain.
Everyone's talking about how badass they'd be with some style or another. I'd just scrape a "pass" in Form VI, and spend the time I saved learning academics, Force powers, and utility skills. My primary combat tactic would be Force Speed ("Secret Joestar Technique: RUN AWAY!"), followed by throwing bits of the environment at pursuers, Looney Tunes-style. No writer would dare kill me off. All the combat specialists would prioritize keeping me alive because I know how to fix the starship, reattach their limbs, and get/keep them out of jail. If the Jedi Order falls then I know how to hide my identity and get a real job. Sith Order operating in secret, plotting to take over the Republic? Very hard to start solving that problem by stabbing it with a laser. But Damask Holdings is moving around a suspicious amount of money. And right after Hugo Damask died it all went to a holding account that a bit of Force-assisted cryptanalysis shows is a front for some politician on Naboo. Who was also seen at a particular not-quite-illegal training camp, shortly before everyone there woke up dead. And this hypernet account that leads back to him has some quite frankly disturbing messages in its history. And he's being a little _too_ shiny and humble about everything. And he's got creepy taste in decorations. And oh look, there's a lightsaber inside this statuette. A red one. TLDR: You killed a Sith Lord? That's nice. I exposed his plan to take over the Republic. With _math._
Great video as always, Antoine. Not too far off from my own interpretations of the forms. I think if I were to train in lightsaber combat, I would likely focus on Soresu and Djem So, with a touch of Niman thrown in to incorporate Force powers more smoothly into my lightsaber sequences.
One thing to note. Durach was a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, you merely get to see some of his niman when he uses the force in that sequence, he also shows the acrobatics of a ateru master, the stonewall defence of a soresu master facing a mikashi and juyo specialists at the same time, you see his counter play of djem so when he stabbed the saberstaff opponent, the footwork of a mikashi master, also his ability to handle both of them at the same time show a good amount of ability with Shi-Cho. Lastly, hes a master of all of them because the lore says so.
Ive always liked the idea of Form Zero, the attempt to solve conflicts without the need for lightsaber violence, I know it isn't very exciting but I like to think that serene keepers of the peace that use the Force for only knowledge and Defense would at least make an attempt not to fight outright.
I always like how Dooku fought in the films, so if I was a Jedi/Sith I would like to major in Form II and back it up with either Form III or Form VI. And I agree that from what we know, Revan would fit into Form VI since I don't think we ever got an official confirmation of his style.
Psychonis There is no confirmation of his style aside from a blog post by Drew Karpynshyn who says Revan would have been a Form VI specialist. Plus it makes since even in the context of the video game. The player could choose whatever form they want so that would mean he would be good at about anything.
I believe the ultimate way to fight using the forms is this way: open with Form II to figure out your opponent and then after finding what you need to know, use a hybrid between Form V and VII, combining the defense, counterattacks, and power of Form V with the vicious ferocity and offense of Form VII.
Informative and pretty decent :) Without the 'compensation' many Jedi formed to counter several of the staff weakness of the chosen forms, this is a good informational video :)
Antoine, you did a great job with this geek rant. I totally agree with your examinations. But there's one thing I noticed at the end of this video: You forgot to mention that Juyo practitioners are masters of or at least trained in one ore more lightsaber forms before they study Form VII.
This is a really well made video. Personally, I would have to master Niman for no other reason than I don't like to be in a position where I can't deal with something myself.
Good Video! Personally it's hard to choose between form 5 and 6. I feel that form 5 is the most effective battlefield form, but I love form 6's mental approach, using the lightsaber more as a last resort, relying more on tactics and the force to get the job done.
I thought real hard on this and I think my chosen forms are forms 1, 4 and 6 with Jar Kai mastery. Forms one and six together would make me unstoppable on the battle field combining instinct with strategy and unpredictable blade work with the force giving me a powerful edge in any battle field situation. Forms 4 and 6 would help me in dealing with single enemies. First I would use Niman so as to combine balanced yet unpredictable bladework with calculated and powerful force strikes to dance circles around my enemy wearing them down and probing for weaknesses. Once I found them I would go completely on the offensive with a rush of elaborate barrages with physical and force strikes and finish my opponent. Jar Kai would give me more options in a fight and it would keep my opponent off balance. I think these forms worked in unison would make a formidable package but what do you all think?
If I was a Sith I would use Forms 3, 4, and 7. My weapon would be a Saberstaff. My fighting style would be a mix of Darth Maul and Darth Zannah. Using the acrobatics and physical attacks of Ataru with the bold and direct strikes of Juyo in a unpredictable yet elaborate offensive. Combined with the stalwart defense of Soresu to both exhaust and frustrate my opponent. My Saberstaff would help me deal with multiple enemies as well as give me and edge with single ones. I would use the force either used for devastating surprise attatcks or if I was outnumbered and overwhelm them in a great and terrifying display of power. As before I'd like to hear some opinions to see what you all think
zFluxx o If I just tried to take it head on probably. Unless the user was a master I could just use Ataru to get around them and Niman to add force attacks and Jar Kai mastery thanks to learning both forms to keep them off balance so they can't keep launch a solid defense or unrelenting offensive. It is not the form that makes but it matters on how you use it. But if Djem So fits your style then that is okay it is a solid form.
I really liked the editing in this video, especially when you switched from the old republic fight to the Anakin and Ventress fight at the end of the niman analysis, that looked great. My forms would be Soresu, niman and Ataru to mastery level. soresu to defend against attacks, with the force attacks of niman and then the quick strikes of Ataru would be an awesome skill set to have.
I'd like it noted that Reven, while focusing on Niman, was a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, using a variety of each type to defeat his opponent. He was a master strategist after all.
"Take the force away from a Jedi and what are they?" - Kreia Form 6 has got good things going for it. And also Revan used it... so I might be a bit bias for that reason.
@@lapplandkun9273 Revan was the master of all 7 techniques, he didn't need the force he was able to best thousands, not to mention win the Mandalorian war.
Niman with a strong emphasis in form 2, 3, 4, with a shien reverse grip goes pretty well with me. Ataru blade work with maakashi body mechanics and blade flow along with form 3 defense. Versatility is pretty good when your facing one or more than one adversary. Flexibility and not being slave by form itself will help you prolong or outlast even overcome your opponent. including a form 2 user like Dooku!
You can change up on your opponent and confuse him. You can block certain angles of attack that ordinary grip won't defend. It also creates opportunity for direct and indirect attacks.
+Brett Jackson Ok you start in reverse grip I laugh at you feint high you raise your blade and with a twist of my wrist I come down and disembowel you. The Reverse grip is utterly shit and useless. Or I do a power attack down at you, hitting your blade into your own arm disabling your arm before walking away. Here is why. Reverse grip is utterly shit. You don't have any precise control with it. We don't have thumbs on the back side of our hands. That is the first issue, 2 you telegraph your every movement with each cut or thrust you try to do. (Btw there is no way to thrust with the reverse grip.) The reason why is your blade is starting out behind you and you have to twist your whole body into each movement giving me all the time i need to see it dodge the blow and then cut you down, or hit you before you can hit me. Even if you start with the blade infront of you with your wrist up high, I can feint a cut at your legs and you can't exploit the opening to my head before I can hit you. Also you can't withstand or give way before a powerful blow from above as our wrists are not meant to absorb that sort of hit. (Now it was done in real world with a one sided dagger for a worst case scenerio when your fighting someone with a sword. However that isn't a lightsaber where laying it against your arm will burn your own arm and a powerful blow can disable your own arm.
+Josh Campbell Name users that used the reverse grip without complications( or cutting off their arms)? And manage to use it effectively! But, that's not the reason why I like it. I see it very effective towards normal grip user that lacks dexterity and handle with the lightsaber( also mobility in footwork). What makes you think I want to face you with reverse grip only when I can change the position and angle of my weapon(wrist work) to strike at vector's you can't defend against? Not only that, it goes great with unarmed combat/force abilities!
I have had such trouble trying to figure out what style(s) I would use, but I think I finally summed it up to Niman, as some of the specific strengths and weaknesses of the other forms don't appeal to me, but I like bits and pieces, like Makashi's probing offensive, Shien/Djem-So's defend and counter strategy, and Niman's application of force powers.
My final pick is: Form 6, 3, 5 and 4. 6 as my main, to work the fight out, (such as trying to fight how I want it to play out)3 when I'm getting overwhelmed by the opponent, 4 to be swift and deal quick strikes and 5 to power through and parry and counter. Note: Sometimes, I choose balance to get better at everything. Got a speed problem? I'm good. Power? Good. And other stuff. I love your videos Antoine Bandele.
Well.... I mean like said in the vid u are quite moderate. Tho your Niman backbone style does has good fall backs and sub styles at the end of the day u aren't the most powerful,defensive or Fastest. You are more or less a tempo fighter based on how you described your style. Like a mix of Revan and Exar Kun.
I would learn all of the forms but my most used ones would be Form 2 Form 3 Form 5 Form 7 and maybe a little Jar kai, just in case Could you also cover duel blade fighting Thanks
Form 6 with hints of form 3 is my go to for styles, form 6 seems to be a very common choice as it is a very powerful form, especially if you would focus on the force.
Revan actually used Soresu, Ataru, and Juyo, per the TOR game files. Drew Karpyshyn's belief that Revan used Niman isn't official. However, since the study of Niman is canonically a prerequisite to using Jar'kai, and since Revan used Jar'kai in the Shadow of Revan expansion of TOR, it's safe to assume that he knew Niman.
+Pierce Wise yes but its a lot less drastic as form 1's weakness to from 2 because from 2 was made to counter form 1 tactics and maneuvers. from 7 could also be said to have an advatage
Personally I would focus mainly on Ataru with Soresu as my secondary form for long fights or to learn my enemies fighting style before engaging with Ataru, however I would implement Ataru much like qui-gon jinn did with a larger focus on strength rather than a pure focus on speed, and I would wield a standard green single bladed lightsaber
There were some definite holes in strong practitioners of Ataru, imagine a form 5 member like Malgus literally grabbing an intermediate to master of Ataru and slamming back and forth like it was Smash
Makashi is outright stated as the ultimate refinement for lightsaber to lightsaber combat. A pure defensive state in means you let the opposition have absolute freedom to grind you down, or you lure them into a trap with a Force-based attack. But Makashi masters rarely bash their heads into a granite boulder, they go grinding it down, carving it the way they want. But then the Jedi started abusing form V and dabbling in everything to learn form VI.
Hey, I have to ask, do you think you can try something like this with Avatar bending styles? I mean, i feel curious to know the different bending strengths and weaknesses in combat.
So, let's see if I got this right.
Form I: Shii-Cho
Fairly balanced form made to handle multiple opponents, but weak against 1v1 forms
Form II: Makashi
Highly offensive form used to bypass a single person's defense, weak against strong opponents or force combat users and lacks defense.
Form III: Soresu
Purely defensive form with almost no true counter, only weakness is it's own user as they must break defenses to attack as the form lacks any actual offensive capabilities.
Form IV: Ataru
Highly offensive speed form using quick bursts of agility to rush single opponents, Weak against defensive users like Soresu and multiple opponents as well as taxing on stamina.
Form V: Djem-So
Form that perfectly balanced offense and defense used by those of great strength, weak against defensive and fast opponents and drains the user's stamina.
Form VI: Niman
Truly balanced form without any strength or weakness that allows user to freely use the force, user may still be defeated by particularly talented lightsaber combatants.
Form VII: Juyo/Vaapad
Completely offense focused form that lacked any defense and is made to tackle single opponents head on by using both the strength and speed of the user as well as their emotions and drive to win, weak against force users and agile duelists due to lacking any sort of counter. Juyo users are likely to lose themselves in battle while Vaapad users, while more collected, do not carry the same amount of force as Juyo.
Sounds about right.
Perfect
The only part wrong is saying Makashi is highly offensive. It's a balanced form. It's the mirrored version of Djem So. Two sides of the same coin.
Also to say it’s weak against force users is laughable. Makashi is the best form to use against the force heavy Niman.
This wasn’t a well done description of Makashi. It’s the mirror version of Djem So, balances between offense and defense, but where Djem So is powerful, Makashi is precise
Bombproofbutter that’s not a form, it’s a style.
"They're more like, guidlines!" Did nobody else think of Pirates of the Caribbean?
Yes. I definitely do.
I did that pirate!
Sure did
The definitive masters of each form of lightsaber combat, as of the Clone Wars era:
Form 1- Kit Fisto
Form 2- Count Dooku
Form 3- Obi-Wan Kenobi
Form 4- Yoda
Form 5- Anakin Skywalker
Form 6- Darth Sidious
Form 7- Mace Windu
Accurate, or not?
+Richard Santamaria Besides 6, who I would say Exar Kun.
+Proud Posiedon (PremislausNicon) My mistake I thought we were going solely movies.
Oh, he said as of Clone Wars era. I was just saying who, in my opinion, used it to its maximum.
+Proud Posiedon (PremislausNicon) Yes that's true. But Darth Sidious was no joke with it either.
Proud Posiedon
I agree, Exar Kun is *the* definitive master of form 6, of all eras. In my opinion, Sidious isn't so much a master of Niman as he's a master of *all* forms of lightsaber combat, but it's easier to say he's a master of Niman for the sake of simplicity.
What if I want to be "formless" like Bruce Lee?
Oh damn
I would highly recommend a Chii-Cho/Juyo hybrid style
I know you're kidding but to be formless is to learn as much as you could and take everything you learned to make your style.
Form 6
Get good with a blaster
No Darth Zannah for Soresu, no Grievous for Jar'Kai, and no Exar Kun for Niman? Shame on you Antonine :P
Besides that, this is still probably my favorite video on the lightsaber forms on youtube. Moderately surprised you made no comment about the Three Rings of Defense, or the Strong, Medium and Fast forms of the NJO, but still the best on youtube that I've seen :)
KatakiDoragon I know I know! I should have included Zannah!
Glad you liked the vid!
@@AntoineBandele also what forms are good for wielding a crossguard lightsaber
@@blackpanther1013 pretty much all forms, i think form 1 and 5 are best choices for crossguard
Nimen is quickly becoming my favorite Form. Great video! Between this and Jensarai's video you can get all you need to know on the Lightsaber forms.
***** I agree. Niman is a good one to have.
Loved the video, I'm a Lightsaber Form Enthusiast myself.
My one question is with your Soresu practitioners. I disagree with you putting Darth Traya/Kreia in there. In Kotor II she seemed to find the form distasteful when you ask her about it. She talked about it rather negatively, saying that it "merely delays the inevitable." (I always took offense when she said that because Soresu is my favorite form :D)
That is true I think she is more Niman in my opinion or Makashi as she can still beat you at lightsaber combat but use force residence it helps against her as that is where I got the Niman theory from
Alexmustand87
My thoughts exactly. Her force abilities are her strong point, she would pick a style that gives her freedom to crush someone with her powers or blast them with force lightning.
And the fact that she only has one hand to hold a lightsaber makes me believe that she would use Makashii as well, seeing that it is an excellent one-handed form. Plus it plays into her technical and perfectionist attitude.
I think that is why Revan is a Niman specialist as Kriea may know the form like you said about her freedom to use force lightning in combat
Man we know Darth Traya to well lol
***** Yeah I should have replaced her with Darth Zannah.
Antoine Bandele Hehe yeah you should, I was sitting there gaping "Now where's Zannah?" ;)
Great video otherwise though, really fun to hear your thoughts. Personally I think a mix between form V, form III and form IV would suit me the best, using V as a base and the other two as required. Considering the fact that I'm a gym-nerd, form V is perfect for me. I might add some VII in there aswell - when the situation requires, but most of the time I think Djem So can see you thorugh.
+Chandler Kittelman Let's look up the exact definition of Form V as quoted from "The Essential Guide to the Force"
BEGIN CITATION:
Form V's Shien variation exploits the ability of the lightsaber to block a blaster bolt, and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberatly toward an opponent. Form V's Dejm So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling.
END CITATION. Source: "The Essential Guide to the Force"
Let's cross reference that with "The Jedi Path."
BEGIN CITATION:
... they developed Shien, a style that deflected blaster fire but redirected the bolts back along chosen vectors to make out attackers and other targets of opportunity. The Shien Barrier of Blades technique creates a tunnel of lightsaber energy to ricochet enemy fire in every direction for maximum damage.
Djem So follows the same philosophy of turning an enemy's attack back on him or her, but is optimized for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.Its signature move is the fluid riposte, which deflects a forceful enemy attack and immediately counterattacks.
END CITATION. Source: "The Jedi Path."
So yes, Shien was specifically designed for blaster deflection, not lightsaber combat. That's where Djem So came into play. Also, I never insinuated that Shien came from Djem So. Quite the opposite is true.
While there is an argument to Shien being adapted to lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, this video was the examination of the foundations of each form as they related to lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.
+harak salazar It's not difficult to understand: shien is used to redirect blaster bolts along CHOSEN vectors, that's where the technical part comes into play. A user of shien has to THINK how he's going to redirect those blaster bolts. The same concept goes when one uses shien ,ill-advised, in lightsaber-to-lightsaber fights, you CHOOSE whether to simply brush off a strike, or put some muscle into it and force it out of the way to make room for your counter.
+Antoine Bandele Why do you often refer to Juyo as form 7? (I know it is form 7) But why not like the others, "Form 7, Juyo"
Max Gomes Pedersen maybe he's referring to both variants of the style when he just says "form VII"
+Antoine Bandele after seeing videos like this its clear that Djem So and Juyo share many similarities to European medieval long sword practice and philosophy (ill post an example from a scholar who goes into detail about the german longsword training philoshopy below in two comments)
*(Similarties to Juyo) "Those who fence "to the touch" often forget that survival is the primary objective of a sword fight. It is one thing to strike your opponent without regard for your own safety, but quite another to defeat your opponent and be able to walk away unscathed.
Merely standing in a guard is not an effective defense. Liechtenauer and all of the masters who followed in his tradition taught that the best way to keep your opponent from hitting you is to hit your opponent first. Therefore you should do your best to maintain the initiative and not simply wait around to react to an attack that may be unpredictable. However, if survival were only a matter of who strikes first, then there would be no need to learn fencing, as whoever is fastest and luckiest will always win. If your opponent takes the initiative you must do everything in your power to take it back. This concept is known as being in the vor (the "before" time) or the nach (the "after" time). If you are in the "after" timing, you must try to regain the "before" as soon as possible by defending and going back on the offense.
Movement is the most important element of defense. Stepping out of the way of attacks, known as voiding, and immediately attacking from your new position is one of the more efficient means of defense. Unfortunately, voiding alone is not always effective, as quite often your opponent will change the angle of his attack to follow you. So, although, you should not feel that you must make blade contact with your opponent, you will often need to do so in order to set it aside as you void. Remember, you are fighting your opponent, not your opponent's sword. Do not strike the weapon without attacking the person as well. Liechtenauer clearly states"
+Antoine Bandele Interesting. Granted, it's because of my lack of information and possibly bad research back in 2007, but I always thought that certain parts of Shien (the blast bolt blocking aspect) was actually the basis of how Soresu works because of the rise of blasters and masters could utilize certain aspects into lightsaber combat like how Obi-Wan utilized it.... Good thing I watched this video then. Learn something new everyday. Thanks for all of the useful information and your input that you've given in this video.
Shii-Cho: Standard class
Makashi: Shadow class
Soresu: Tank class
Ataru: Warrior class
Djem So: Hammer class
Niman: Mage class
Juyo: Berserker class
Hah. Pretty much this.
I would have Ataru as whirlwind class.
That's pretty accurate. The only things I would change is Shii Cho would be the warrior class and Ataru would be the monk class.
Jarkai - Assassin
Wouldn't Djem so be considered warrior class seeing as how it was meant for pure combat?
My favorites would be Soresu and Ataru.
Soresu for obtaining more time for rational thinking during a fight and survive against more experienced duelists (those that don't give too much room of opportunity to their opponents), Ataru for making chaos since it's a whirlwind of lightcuts.
I believe a good application of this duo would be to use Soresu to stay live until the opponent reaches their limits, then counterattack quickly with Ataru when risk is lower.
Honestly I think a complete mastery of Niman, Form 6, would be what I’d like. Pick and choose what mix of the other forms for what’s best in each individual fight, while mixing in Force abilities seamlessly
me too
@@charleswist2104 Me too! I would fuse the forms I, III, IV, V and some parts of Vaapad to it for a great balance. I would also maybe even add some Jar'Kai when I get the opportunity to. Let me explain why I chose these forms:
1) Since Djem So has a "balance" between its offence and defence, I'll take that part of it as my first one.
2) Ataru's speed can be used to confuse your opponents, so I'm adding that feat from it.
3) I wanna take Soresu's unbreakable defences and apply its defensive strategies when I'm on the defensive.
4) I'm integrating Vaapad's control over the fight for 1v1's only, never for multiple opponents.
5) I gotta add some Jar'Kai to my training since it's effective against multiple opponents and it is able to do offence and defence simultaneously.
6) Niman is my own choice mostly due to the balance of it, and other reasons are because it's barely seen at all in the movies.
7) I also gotta add some Force abilities, I use them when I'm about to lose a fight yet I wanna stay alive.
@@UTU1O nice, i like it
@@charleswist2104 thx
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wait a second shouldn't makashi be able to work its way around soresu's defense because that's what count dooku did during his fight with obi wan kenobi in star wars episode II of the movies also shouldn't djem so potentially be able to break soresu's defense if the djem so user is powerful enough with the form
+raphael hanna It's good on Shii-Cho as well
One thing one should remember is that at the time of the attack of the clones was that obi wan was still learning and mastering the style at that time. After the duel obi wan the mastered soresu to near perfection, even beyond any other master plus obi wan then mastered and practiced other forms to make his style his own and this made him practically untouchable in a pute lightsaber duel, so the battle of obi wan and dooku was basiclly almost like a learning curve for obi wan so besides that one battle no other practitioners have really been able to defeat a soresu master.
Also, what Kenobi used on Geonosis was still Form IV Ataru with elements of Form I Shii Cho. It was only during the rescue of the Chancellor that he showed Dooku his mastery of Soresu, just as Anakin concealed his own mastery of Djem So. Kenobi would only become purely Soresu in his final duel with Vader.
wouldn't Shii-Cho be weak against Djem-So too?
Form 8: ceiling fan, master: general grevious
Form 9: helicopter, masters: inquisitors
Form 10: use like baseball bat, master: rey
Last one got me 😂
Shii-Cho: Rock
Makashi: Paper
Soresu: Rock
Ataru: Scissors
Djem So: Scissors
Niman: Paper
Juyo: Paper
More or less.
Green Acorn This is kinda confusing lol. I'm trying to think my way around it like "does rock mean defense or kinetic attack or does scissors mean offense or balanced,etc,etc". Would you mind explaining it
Djem So wouldn't be considered "rock"?
Wait so what the hell is general grievous's form? Or does he have his own, *Form 8 breakdancing*
He adapts to the forms he is fighting against, as highlighted in _Labyrinth of Evil._ When we fought Mace Windu he started to mimic Form VII.
+Antoine Bandele nah, his form is definitely breakdancing. HE IS THE MASTER OF GETTIN DOWN! now im imagining gervious beating the crap out of jedi with the power of dance.... its awesome haha
Antoine Bandele he also relied on fear tactics to make Jedi panic and attack him head on rather than use force powers which he was susceptible to. Hence the spinning blades
He has created a bladed form of Capoeira.
SephirothgeneX7 shut up scoundrel
i will always be a fan of form 3
It's a solid one.
+daeshawn kenway the best of the best. got to love being a unbreakable wall if mastered
Shadow Zaron it just seems so badass to know that while you facing more 2 people at once they cant lay a finger on you
+daeshawn kenway it becomes a battle of stamina, and if you are of another race, one with more stamina, you have an amazing advantage against a soresu Master. Soresu can be used to great advantage when pared with another style, such as Niman, when used with a saber staff, or when you use direct force attacks to aid in your eventual counterstrike.
RainDoesGaming i feel sorry for the people who have low stamina all the time then lol
Personally I think the perfect style would be Form V Djem So as a dedicated and Form III Soresu as a supplemental. Since Djem So already has high impact strength and solid defense so if you could sharpen the defense with Soresu and correlate your usage of your force pool appropriately over the course of a battle you could be nigh unstoppable or immovable (literally).
2 yrs, i know. In my opinion Soresu isnt good supplement when your primarly form is Djem so. Far more useful would be Makashi as a back up form. Strength doesnt work, try finesse.
I think that Form VII Juyo with Form III Soresu as a supplemental would even more op because Juyo has fast powerful strikes and is the only known form that can break Soresu's defense. Since only very few have known to master or use Juyo, I would have to agree that Form V Djem So and Form III Soresu would make a person unstoppable.
A Makashi user could dance around your defenses.
Lets be honest, if you are strong with the Force, Form I will be enough to destroy a Makashi or Juyo master.
Personally I'd prefer Djem (power), supplement with Makashi (grace)
Loved smooth editing , keep up a good work ! Enjoyed
I love your Obi-Wan Kenobi tribute ! I watch it all the time ! Great work keep it up and you're right the editing in this video is top notch 👌
Tom Grocutt Thanks a lot , I'm glad you enjoy it !
DuduFilm AWESOME! I love your fan videos too man!
I wouldn't say Makashi was weak against Ataru, as form IV was less about power blows and more about speed and agility.
Ataru's still has kinetic energy that Makashi can still struggle with.
***** But the ideal Ataru user is quick and agile. Like Yoda or Shaak To or Ahsoka. Qui-Gon was more strength based, causing the openings.
If you look at what Ataru is with agile focused duelists, their speed covers openings to where they can out pace Makashi. Plus speed generates kinetic energy, which Makashi struggles with defending against.
From what I know Makashi doesn't have any problem with generating speed. In fact it's the oposite, Makashi is very speed-oriented style. The problem with Makashi lies with strenght-based attacks, thats is why Makashi masters can only redirect power blows (like Dooku did against Anakin) and can't take them head on or else they would get tired very fast.
cichy45 But all the Ataru duelist has to do is use their speed to close in and the Makashi duelist is going to struggle. Because the Ataru duelist stays constantly moving, attacking. Where Makashi tries using leverage to pick their spots.
It's why Dooku struggled against Dooku. Because Yoda was constantly pressing the offensive, but not creating huge openings.. That's what Makashi struggles against.
Many forget that Ataru uses fast moves, but are supposed to keep their lightsaber near their guard range. Not like Juyo, where the strikes are wild, wide slashes
The problem is that Ataru does in fact create openings. Yoda is exceptional, because his small size and very advanced force valour made him extremely hard to target. Dooku actually criticized Ataru for it's acrobatics and stated that he can counter Ataru by launching a series of thrusts toward the enemy's legs to draw the opponent into a flipping overhead leap, so that he could burn through the enemy's spine with his Makashi attack.
Another factor is that Ataru was not effective in prolonged combat, because of how tiring it was. So either Ataru master could take down enemy fast of he wouldn't be able to take him at all. Makashi on the other hand was all about conserving energy and economy of movement, which gives big advantage in long duels.
I really appreciate your videos. I've watched others such as Jennasari and EvanNova who have a very in depth background analysis but zero charisma in their delivery. You videos are well spoken, and have a very clean and well formatted edit. Keep doing what you're doing, you're good at it.
Thanks Eric, that's much appreciated.
I will quote a young Mr. Solo " I don't trust ancient weapons and Hokey religions;
Just give me a blaster. "
+roninpride True, but unless you are a mandalorian, or a jedi killer speacialist, you WILL lose againt any force sensitive with a lightsaber.
+Andyr Rafael may favorite examples of a non force user beating a Jedi or Sith would be when Jag Fel (if I remember his name correctly) tricked a dark jedi into using the force to take his blaster away. The blaster was rigged to explode if it was to far way from him. he was able to hide the fact that it was a trick until it was to late by having a disciplined mind, and was able to use a jet pack to close the gap between him and the dark Jedi before she could recover. killed her by snapping her neck with Mandalorian crush gauntlets. the other involved a guy dual wielding blasters against a group of Sith (note that this individual had a weak but stronger than average connection to the force and had a Jedi knight assisting him). he used a lot of combination attacks with his partner as well as dirty fighting to get around their defenses. examples being throwing dirt and rocks into his opponents eyes, using unarmed combat to avoid getting killed by lightsabers, sacrificing a weapon to bypass an opponents guard, and my personal favorite distracting an opponent to leave them vulnerable to a force push from his Jedi partner and then shooting them while they were off balance.
I think you missed out on naming Darth Malgus as a Master of Form V it was his Holocron that Vader studied and his application of D'Jemso to further his (Vader) studies in the form. Great video as always
There are too many Form V users to list them all. I think that was a good three, and Malgus was highlighted throughout the section.
1:02 Let the lightsaber learning begin.
I think a unique mixture of Soresu and Juyo would contend with any duelist. Great analysis!
They clash too much. They not mix well. The only good use of it would be a Form III opening with Form VII finish. But you’d dimish your master in both because you can’t set yourself into its highest performance because they have opposing mentalities and philosophies.
Antoine Bandele That's the point my friend, by embodying a Grey Jedi mindset, I can attempt to confuse or outmaneuver my opponent :)
Has there been any lightside characters that used form 2? As far as I'm aware, it's all dark side users like the second sister, the grand inquisitor and count dooku.
Form 2 and form 4 mix would be amazing
That was Shaak Ti's form ;-)
+Colin Jewett very common combination among Jedi of the old Jedi order.
Never realized till now Shi-cho could be specially effective against Jar'kai taking into account Fisto's duel with Grievous and it's focus on disarming
Yup yup :-)
I loved how you could clearly see Form IV in Qui-Gon when he faced Darth Maul. He was constantly on the offensive and pushing him back, with very wide, open swings and lots of forward momentum.
2 questions (both regarding Form VII)
1. A basic prerequisite for studying Form VII is high level mastery of other forms. So what in your opinion would be the best foundation for Form VII?
2. What do you think of a hybrid fighting style of Juyo and Soresu?
brett2tt I think the base of Form VII would certainly be Ataru and Djem So.
Assuming ( if i was a jedi ) I was powerful in the force, I'd probably go with Niiman as my primary with most focus placed there, while also learning Soresu for when dealing with very offensive and powerful opponents. Once proficient enough in those two would begin to specialize in form 7 for those occasions you come across other Soresu specialists who you don't have the time for a lengthy battle with. I'd say that covers the spread quite nicely.
Dale C Soresu/Niman is a very, very nice mix.
Thank you! Never understood what people meant when they talk about these forms
I appreciated your analysis, it mirrored many of my thoughts on the forms, and I really liked how you compared the intricacies of their strengths and weaknesses.
Thanks dude.
Has anyone brought up Bruce Lee and how he would beat all forms combined with his nun-chucks?
+NotOrdinaryInGames Only if his nun-chucks got heat protection from plasma.
+Dewottpoke
yall got light saber nunchucks tho
+madhatten00
Hilariously, those actually do exist.
@Wes Bradley-Taubner He's an actor so he wins if the script says so.
If someone were to combine form 1, 3, 4, and 7 the dueler would be completely unstoppable
Very hard to do.
+Antoine Bandele am I right in thinking obi wan was a former 2 and 3 specialist, or was that just something I heard
+Jensen Taylor
obi wan was a former 4 and then he went to 3 while keeping some aspects of form 4
his master qui gon was a pure form 4 specialist so he taught obi wan form 4
OK thanks
Antoine Bandele Yes it would be very hard but think of a being that is thousands of years old (Darth Plagueis), they could possibly combine all forms together. I mean they'd be completely unstoppable in saber combat
This video helped a lot, especially with me choosing forms I want to study. The forms I'm studying are the forms I relate to the most, in which so happen to be mastered by my favorite Jedi and Sith (Shii Cho - Kit Fisto; Makashi - Count Dooku.).
Interesting. One is instinctual, the other deliberate.
+Antoine Bandele I tried looking into the other forms, but they never interested as much. I'm not the type of person who is interested in strength-based forms like Djem So, or highly defensive forms like Soresu. I may look into other forms in the future, possibly Ataru. Vaapad and Juyo are just too overly offensive and can't be risked. Niman, on the other hand, is hard to think about because of the fact that the force in Star Wars isn't real.
Makashi and Niman are my favorite forms, nice video man.
I would use one long saber and one short saber with two hands.
I would use form V, VII and a bit of III.
My fighting style would be very reminiscent of Pontiff Sulyvahn from Darksouls 3.
What if someone tried changing in between all the lightsaber forms to confuse their enemies.
Darth sidious does that.
@@blackpanther1013 yeah he mastered all the lightsaber forms.
Good job man! Real informative, you're quickly becoming the star wars guru on youtube.
Matthew P Thanks Mr. P :-D
To be honest, in my opinion your channel is the most professional of the star wars geeks!
Hah thanks. There are others that have far more production value than I do.
In my opinion Soresu is the best. Although there is a lot defense in it you wait for them to slip up. I heard someone say that this with force lightening would probably be the most unstoppable combat, which could be true in some ways I suppose. I heard that Soresu Masters may have to meditate (I'm not sure if that's true or not).
Soresu can defeat any form. I think Soresu can beat Ataru because since Soresu is based around defense and waiting for them to slip up, Ataru is used to kill people easily and use critical hits. In the Phamtom Menace, the first Star Wars movie if your remember Qui Gon Jinn against Darth Maul, Qui Gon Jinn as you know uses Ataru. So by the time when it was Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jinn Qui Gon was probably tired beyond believe which made him get killed. Although, Darth Maul uses Juyo/Vaapad. Soresu has no weakness except for Form Seven but as you said no Soresu Master has been killed in lightsaber to lightsaber combat by a Form Seven user.
If you watch videos about the Soresu Lightsaber combat I heard that Soresu Masters like ObiWanKenobi can survive for a very long time. If you remember in Revenge Of The Sith, the third Star Wars movie Obi Wan Kenobi defeated DarthVader, Anakin Skywalker.
Also, isn't Soresu mainly based around blaster deflection? A Soresu Master can hold up to 20 droids and with deflect it back the blaster bullets back to the droid (if you know what I mean). Soresu is probably based around Shien and a bit of Makashi but in a defensive way.
Like I said previously about Soresu vs Ataru. If you're talking about the great Ataru master Master Yoda against the great Soresu Master Obi Wan Kenobi I bet many of you will say Master Yoda will win against Obi Wan. Many of you will say he's stronger than Obi Wan and you're probably correct. Imagine Qui Gon Jinn still alive but the same age as he was in The Phamtom Menace against Obi Wan Kenobi (Obi Wan a bit older not talking about when he was a Padawan). That to me is a great Ataru vs Soresu duel. Two good duelists. Although I did say imagine Obi Wan slightly older. I'm not being bias or anything but I think that Obi Wan Kenobi would win. The reason this is is because Soresu Masters can last quite a long time against any Lightsaber duelists. If Qui Gon Jinn wants to strike Obi Wan he will have to do a critical hit or a very fast hit in order to kill Obi Wan. It would be the same problem for Qui Gon Jinn possibly he would get tired and he would get killed against Obi Wan Kenobi.
+ChelseaFc Foreverandever Shien & Djem so were created because some viewed Soresu as not offensive enough to combat. Also, I agree with you, Soresu, is a complet defense both againt blaster and lightsaber, the only problem is that there is no attack maneuvers at all, just defense, not that is bad, but against a enemy that has lots of endurance and stamina, A soresu user would be in trouble. Force powers are also a pretty good advantage against Soresu, as it's masters have to focus only in the form to near perfection, leaving their guard down, to force powers, and we can see this in Obi.
In episode 3 when he and Ani fought against dooku, It was too easy for dooku to pass through the force wall of Obi, so much that he did twice. Even though we are talking about DOOKU, if a average force user can trespass your force wall, then you are pretty much doomed.
The best form against Soresu for me is Indeed Form VII, as a full master of this technique (Say a Obi wan of Juyo) would obliterate his defense. Form VI Niman also is a good one, as a master of Niman is a master of Force powers, and even more dangerous as Obi stated himself " It's difficult to utillize the force as a weapon while also wilding a lightsaber too! have to practice more."
Hope we can have a discussion about the lightsaber forms and force powers if possible. :D
+Andyr Rafael Soresu with force lightening would be very powerful. And yes Jedi can use force lightening, Luke Skywalker can even use force lightening I heard.
Yes, a jedi can, but it's nature is dark side, that's why jedi didn't used in the CW, giving pain and suffering to a living being is prohibited not only by the consil, but for a jedi's morals.
+Andyr Rafael True. Also, the force isn't used for attack its used for defense as Yoda said.
ChelseaFc Foreverandever Exactly! A true jedi knows how to end a fight without killing or mortaly injuring the enemy.
Can't quite agree that Makashi is weak against Ataru. Not because i'm Makashi fan or something like that, actually it's my least favorite form. But Ataru can create too much openings which for Makashi can be a heaven to explore. And I can't leave without pointing on your editing and style and design of your video which is the best as always.
If the makashi user is skilled enough to work around Ataru's offense then sure
+giorgi talikadze Makashi is horizontally adept but it is slow on the vertical. relies on foot work, dancing. flourishes are quick, sharp. focused. ataru is at it's weakest when grounded. hard not to flourish or completely evade evade everything. makashi fights opponants infront of the user, Ataru turns the user into a death-ball... which bounces. Makashi would be hard pressed to land a hit on an Ataru user, at the same time, the lack of a strong or reinforced blocking deffence against Atarus crazyness would make it difficult to stand against. both forms are often mixed as they take a complete oppisite approach to lightsaber combat, and thus cover each others weaknesses
Great overview! The one thing you forgot though is Niman's poster boy Exar Kun. He was probably the greatest master of the form.
Definitely.
I think Revan could be considered the 2nd best user of the form (not saying Revan is the very best fighter there ever was but there aren’t many examples of others who could top him easily).
Ataru is also used against multiple opponents. As said by yoda, but the user needs to be highly in tuned with the force. Basically it's all based on the practitioner.
The Definitive masters of each forms in Star Wars
Form 1- Kit Fisto
Form 2- Darth Tyranus
Form 3- Obi-Wan Kenobi
Form 4- Yoda
Form 5- Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
Form 6- Darth Sidious
Form 7 Mace Windu
Personally my favorite practinoners of these forms are
Shii-Cho:kit fisto
Makashi:count dooku
Soresu:obi wan
Ataru:Yoda
Djem so: Anakin and Darth vader
Niman:kao cen darrach and Darth
sidious
Juyo:darth maul
Vaapad:mace windu
Actually you should put Sidious In Juyo and Darth Maul in Niman.
I'm so sorry for taking Historical European Martial Arts into the discussion, but the way I would apply Ataru against multiple opponents would be to create a danger zone, if you like, using the elaborate spins and the reach of the weapon as both a tool for offence and defence, similar to how the historical Iberian Montante is used. Constant and consistent movement, keeping assailants off my back whilst finding an opening in their formation, then, when the formation is broken, use the opportunity to take them out with blinding speed, ideally in a line.
If I were to place all Seven Forms from easiest to master to the hardest, I think it would be like this. Just because a Form is more manageable or more challenging to master does not mean that it is inferior or superior to another Form.
1: Soresu: While arguably the most sustainable form, the premise of Soresu is purely defensive, with absolutely zero use in an offensive scenario whatsoever.
2: Djem So: Almost as defensive as Soresu, Djem So does teach the user to read when his opponent is vulnerable and strike them. However, it is almost entirely based around strength, allowing the opponent to circumvent the power of the Form with precision or mobility.
3: Ataru: Ataru is arguably the most physically taxing of all the Forms and isn't sustainable for more than several minutes. Plus, its focus on attacking flanks is harder to grasp, rather than Djem So's focus on plowing through a defence.
4: Makashi: There is a reason Makashi is considered the most disciplined of all Forms, and its focus on stabbing, rather than slashing, is the source of that. Perhaps the second most sustainable form, besides Soresu, takes a lot of focus to use efficient movements over rapid and tiring strikes.
5: Juyo/Vaapad: I feel like these two Forms are the most dangerous to master, as they require the user to let their negative emotions flow, which could backfire in the worst way possible against the wrong kind of opponent.
6: Shii-Cho: While just as hard to master as Juyo and Vaapad, Shii-Cho relies on the user to give themselves over to the Force almost entirely, which takes a specific kind of person to achieve success. Plus, it is good in both offence and defence, whereas Juyo focuses on offence.
7: Niman: I find Niman to be the most intellectually demanding form, as it requires a specific mastery of how to apply the other Forms and knowing when to switch tactics. Niman takes an extraordinary kind of person to master it correctly, and that is why it is, unfortunately and wrongly, considered the weakest Form out of the Seven.
I am more than willing to debate on this, as there are some forms I'm not 100% certain of with their placement.
I may be inclined to disagree with you on Ataru being better against Djem So. While I do agree with you saying that Ataru had alot more mobility against Djem So's rooted style, that is also a weakness of Ataru.
Where Djem So users need alot less mobility, Ataru relies on its mobility. Essentially, you'd get a similar result of an Ataru practitioner going up against a Soresu practitioner: the Ataru user would get tired and let out too much energy, whereas a Soresu practitioner would be completely fresh and able to take down their opponent almost easily.
Except in the case of Ataru vs. Djem So, the Djem So practitioner could attack back when he/she chose to.
It's not the form that decides the outcome, but the skill of the individual!
Char Aznable Both being equally matched in skill is an incredibly rare occurrence but even then circumstances and chance have as much influence as form.
Char Aznable Every form obviously has both strengths and weaknesses because following a particular strategy necessarily precludes the use of others, which can then be used against you.
However, if one form could always be beaten by another (on paper) then it would soon become redundant. If all these 7 forms survived, it's reasonable to assume they were all effective IF mastered.
If someone lost a fight it was more likely due to their lack of skill which consequently didn't allow them to maximise the advantages of their chosen form while minimising the disadvantages.
Discussing if Ataru can defeat Djem So is akin to asking if Karate can defeat Kung Fu.
It all depends on the individuals...
You effectively say as much in your own comments:
_I think it comes down to a users speed._
Char Aznable Fair enough. Although, the OP's first line about Ataru being better than Djem So seems to imply just that...
_I may be inclined to disagree with you on Ataru being better against Djem So._
I believe a Djem So user even with a lack of mobility could take a ataru user. Ataru does have more maneuverability and mobility but it has basically no defensive training thus Djem So could attempt to block a ataru users flip and spin attacks then immediately counter with his own power blow. but once again it depends on skill of the user
If I had to pick a form of lightsaber combat to specialize in, I think I would go with Djem So though also incorporating a little of other forms to make up for some of its weaknesses. What about you? Which lightsaber form would you say is the most attractive to you?
Gandalf the White I personally prefer Makashi/Soresu as a combo but Djem So would be the runner-up if I was a brutish person.
i'd go a into battle with my mage form, wielding a sword in one hand and a staff in the other
AizatXtreme 123 This may seem silly, but if you see it from this perspective:
Form II: Duelist-Like warrior
Form III: Sword and "Shield" warrior
Form IV: Rogue (Considering how acrobatic and evasive this form is)
Form V: Two-Handed Sword Warrior
Form VI: Mage (since it insists on incorporating force-based attacks)
I think all these lightsaber forms would turn out irrelevant in a real fight and everyone would just swing their weapons like baseball bats like Luke in ROTJ.
Antoine Bandele
I would also think that is a winning combination. Soresu to tire the opponent out and Makashi to finish him, right?
Maybe it would also be possible to construct a lightsaber with a straight hilt that can be adjustet to be curved. I mean If you look at other kinds of fancy lightsabers that cant be too difficult. Then you could start with Soresu and when you see that your opponent is getting tired adjust the hilt and surprise him with a change of style AND a change of attacking angle. Wouldnt that be great?
Niman user here. I thought I'd be a Juyo practitioner for a long time, but realized that I value versatility and spellblading more than pure offense :)
That's why Anakin applied Ataru with his Dhem So to eliminate its flat footed weakness. Very smart. Why it's the practitioner, not the form that can succeed.
Well if I was gonna choose a style to master it would be djem so first, makashi, and then soresu.
Djem so would provide the base and makashi would provide the more energy efficient fall back as well throwing off my opponent with my suddenly precise and economical movements. Soresu for my defense against ataru as well as coupling well with makashi for an all together more devastating one on one style.
blackraver5 Good choices, very Vader-esque.
@@RynUmbra I’m the same way but use form 1/4 instead of five
@@RynUmbra also form 3
No form 3 master was defeated in lightsaber combat. Hmm, I heard about this Kenobi dude.
closing his eyes and standing still like a statue for a free kill isn't a defeat if he let them kill him on purpose
@@Rabid_Savage Plus, makashi is good at poking holes in soresu's defence.
@@1God1Fury lol Vader was going to beat him either way
Nice video as always, good analysis! I didn't even thought about the weaknesses or strenghts of some forms (e.g. Niman) because I wasn't interested in them. Now I see them from a different angle.
Tim Bruzda That was the intention of the vide :-D Glad you liked it.
Very nice concise and well informed overview (awesome editing too)!
P.S. I'm sure we can all agree that Juyo is the best form :)
Cenacles If one can master Juyo is quite effective. It's just the easiest form to misuse. High risk, high reward.
Antoine Bandele Very true :)
My lightsaber forms would be
Form 2 Makashi, because I can be precise about my attacks and expose an enemy's weakness.
Form 3 Soresu because it has perfect defence and it would tire my enemies when I keep defending my self and they would get tired.
And Form 5 Djem So because it is strong with some decent defence to back it up.
I would learn all of the 7 forms but forms 2, 3, and 5 would be my most used forms.
Christopher Lewis *Facepalm* He said in the video if I were to study those lightsaber forms, and use them as a Jedi those would be the forms I would choose!!
Makashi would actually be the last form I would learn, because it requires a degree of control that the other forms don't have. A Makashi master can send their blade exactly where they want it to go, whether it be to defend themselves or to poke at the other guy.
I'd probably use Soresu or Niman the most. Let 'em come at me- I'll just block and defend and generally let my opponent wear themselves out, then switch it up and strike hard and fast and WIN.
Red Lylat I'd have form V, III and VI
Red Lylat Exactly. With those 3 you have a perfect trifecta, precision, defense, and power. They are definitely the best forms. IMO, Shii-Cho and Niman are too basic, and Ataru and Juyo/Vaapad are too stamina-consuming.
Red Lylat I'm all forms
Yea mine is Soresu
Were I a Lightsaber practitioner I would incorporate Forms 1-6, with an emphasis on Soresu, Ataru, and Djem-So. I'd also use Makashi so as to use it's deflection and redirection abilities.
I believe my style is like:
Offence:
Shii-Cho: Basis.
Makashi: To exploit openings.
Ataru: Ocasional acrobatics.
Djem So and Juyo: Power strikes against inferior opponents.
Defence:
Makashi: To avoid meeting strikes head-on from superior opponents.
Soresu: Block strikes from inferior opponents.
Sokan: Manipulation of the terrain.
Everyone's talking about how badass they'd be with some style or another. I'd just scrape a "pass" in Form VI, and spend the time I saved learning academics, Force powers, and utility skills. My primary combat tactic would be Force Speed ("Secret Joestar Technique: RUN AWAY!"), followed by throwing bits of the environment at pursuers, Looney Tunes-style. No writer would dare kill me off. All the combat specialists would prioritize keeping me alive because I know how to fix the starship, reattach their limbs, and get/keep them out of jail. If the Jedi Order falls then I know how to hide my identity and get a real job. Sith Order operating in secret, plotting to take over the Republic? Very hard to start solving that problem by stabbing it with a laser. But Damask Holdings is moving around a suspicious amount of money. And right after Hugo Damask died it all went to a holding account that a bit of Force-assisted cryptanalysis shows is a front for some politician on Naboo. Who was also seen at a particular not-quite-illegal training camp, shortly before everyone there woke up dead. And this hypernet account that leads back to him has some quite frankly disturbing messages in its history. And he's being a little _too_ shiny and humble about everything. And he's got creepy taste in decorations. And oh look, there's a lightsaber inside this statuette. A red one.
TLDR: You killed a Sith Lord? That's nice. I exposed his plan to take over the Republic. With _math._
Loved this Dylan :-D
Can we just talk about the fact that Palpatine mastered all 7 forms o.0
Their are a lot of people that mastered all 7 forms
If I observe correctly, Anakin mastered form 5 and mixed it with ataru so had the mobility and speed of ataru and the strenght of 5
he hybridized the two forms.
Glad to see someone sees the beauty in lightsaber combat
Based on what I know of the seven forms, I think your assessment of the strengths and weaknesses is pretty accurate.
Me too! Lol
Great video as always, Antoine. Not too far off from my own interpretations of the forms.
I think if I were to train in lightsaber combat, I would likely focus on Soresu and Djem So, with a touch of Niman thrown in to incorporate Force powers more smoothly into my lightsaber sequences.
infinitesheldon Thanks :-D
Soresu and Djem So ain't a bad combo.
One thing to note. Durach was a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, you merely get to see some of his niman when he uses the force in that sequence, he also shows the acrobatics of a ateru master, the stonewall defence of a soresu master facing a mikashi and juyo specialists at the same time, you see his counter play of djem so when he stabbed the saberstaff opponent, the footwork of a mikashi master, also his ability to handle both of them at the same time show a good amount of ability with Shi-Cho. Lastly, hes a master of all of them because the lore says so.
Ive always liked the idea of Form Zero, the attempt to solve conflicts without the need for lightsaber violence, I know it isn't very exciting but I like to think that serene keepers of the peace that use the Force for only knowledge and Defense would at least make an attempt not to fight outright.
Vulcan Jedi no, because jedi aren't peacekeepers since they joined the republic Thousands of years before the prequels
I always like how Dooku fought in the films, so if I was a Jedi/Sith I would like to major in Form II and back it up with either Form III or Form VI. And I agree that from what we know, Revan would fit into Form VI since I don't think we ever got an official confirmation of his style.
Psychonis There is no confirmation of his style aside from a blog post by Drew Karpynshyn who says Revan would have been a Form VI specialist. Plus it makes since even in the context of the video game. The player could choose whatever form they want so that would mean he would be good at about anything.
Antoine Bandele My thoughts exactly.
Just added to Favorites! love your work Antoine!
Thanks Keith, much appreciated.
beautifully done, as almost always
Thanks Julian.
I believe the ultimate way to fight using the forms is this way: open with Form II to figure out your opponent and then after finding what you need to know, use a hybrid between Form V and VII, combining the defense, counterattacks, and power of Form V with the vicious ferocity and offense of Form VII.
Informative and pretty decent :)
Without the 'compensation' many Jedi formed to counter several of the staff weakness of the chosen forms, this is a good informational video :)
LightingbladeShen Thanks :-D
Antoine Bandele Also, allergic to reading? That burn XD
LightingbladeShen Hah I thought more people would have mentioned that comment lol.
Wish more people make which form is weak to others forms then actually explaining what the form of lightsaber is because there's so many at it
Antoine, you did a great job with this geek rant. I totally agree with your examinations. But there's one thing I noticed at the end of this video: You forgot to mention that Juyo practitioners are masters of or at least trained in one ore more lightsaber forms before they study Form VII.
This video isn't meant for direct explanations of each form. It's an overall overview and comparison piece.
This is a really well made video. Personally, I would have to master Niman for no other reason than I don't like to be in a position where I can't deal with something myself.
Good Video! Personally it's hard to choose between form 5 and 6. I feel that form 5 is the most effective battlefield form, but I love form 6's mental approach, using the lightsaber more as a last resort, relying more on tactics and the force to get the job done.
I thought real hard on this and I think my chosen forms are forms 1, 4 and 6 with Jar Kai mastery. Forms one and six together would make me unstoppable on the battle field combining instinct with strategy and unpredictable blade work with the force giving me a powerful edge in any battle field situation. Forms 4 and 6 would help me in dealing with single enemies. First I would use Niman so as to combine balanced yet unpredictable bladework with calculated and powerful force strikes to dance circles around my enemy wearing them down and probing for weaknesses. Once I found them I would go completely on the offensive with a rush of elaborate barrages with physical and force strikes and finish my opponent. Jar Kai would give me more options in a fight and it would keep my opponent off balance. I think these forms worked in unison would make a formidable package but what do you all think?
If I was a Sith I would use Forms 3, 4, and 7. My weapon would be a Saberstaff. My fighting style would be a mix of Darth Maul and Darth Zannah. Using the acrobatics and physical attacks of Ataru with the bold and direct strikes of Juyo in a unpredictable yet elaborate offensive. Combined with the stalwart defense of Soresu to both exhaust and frustrate my opponent. My Saberstaff would help me deal with multiple enemies as well as give me and edge with single ones. I would use the force either used for devastating surprise attatcks or if I was outnumbered and overwhelm them in a great and terrifying display of power. As before I'd like to hear some opinions to see what you all think
Tanner Leonard Good choice for both.
Thanks for that and great video by the way keep up the good work.
Tanner Leonard you would crumble under djem so
zFluxx o If I just tried to take it head on probably. Unless the user was a master I could just use Ataru to get around them and Niman to add force attacks and Jar Kai mastery thanks to learning both forms to keep them off balance so they can't keep launch a solid defense or unrelenting offensive. It is not the form that makes but it matters on how you use it. But if Djem So fits your style then that is okay it is a solid form.
I really liked the editing in this video, especially when you switched from the old republic fight to the Anakin and Ventress fight at the end of the niman analysis, that looked great. My forms would be Soresu, niman and Ataru to mastery level. soresu to defend against attacks, with the force attacks of niman and then the quick strikes of Ataru would be an awesome skill set to have.
Tom Grocutt thanks :-D
I'd like it noted that Reven, while focusing on Niman, was a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, using a variety of each type to defeat his opponent. He was a master strategist after all.
All Niman users are "fundamental" masters of all forms but they are not total masters of all forms.
So glad you did this. Great job!
***** Me too! Thanks :-D
I think you broke down the lightsabers pretty well. I really enjoyed this video!
TheFuryProduction Thanks :-D
"Take the force away from a Jedi and what are they?" - Kreia
Form 6 has got good things going for it. And also Revan used it... so I might be a bit bias for that reason.
isn't that statement hypocritical? Take away the force from any being and what are they?
@@lapplandkun9273 Revan was the master of all 7 techniques, he didn't need the force he was able to best thousands, not to mention win the Mandalorian war.
Niman with a strong emphasis in form 2, 3, 4, with a shien reverse grip goes pretty well with me. Ataru blade work with maakashi body mechanics and blade flow along with form 3 defense. Versatility is pretty good when your facing one or more than one adversary. Flexibility and not being slave by form itself will help you prolong or outlast even overcome your opponent. including a form 2 user like Dooku!
why the reverse grip?
You can change up on your opponent and confuse him. You can block certain angles of attack that ordinary grip won't defend. It also creates opportunity for direct and indirect attacks.
+Brett Jackson Yea good point. I dont see why people all ways talk down about reverse grips
+Brett Jackson Ok you start in reverse grip I laugh at you feint high you raise your blade and with a twist of my wrist I come down and disembowel you. The Reverse grip is utterly shit and useless. Or I do a power attack down at you, hitting your blade into your own arm disabling your arm before walking away.
Here is why. Reverse grip is utterly shit. You don't have any precise control with it. We don't have thumbs on the back side of our hands. That is the first issue, 2 you telegraph your every movement with each cut or thrust you try to do. (Btw there is no way to thrust with the reverse grip.) The reason why is your blade is starting out behind you and you have to twist your whole body into each movement giving me all the time i need to see it dodge the blow and then cut you down, or hit you before you can hit me. Even if you start with the blade infront of you with your wrist up high, I can feint a cut at your legs and you can't exploit the opening to my head before I can hit you. Also you can't withstand or give way before a powerful blow from above as our wrists are not meant to absorb that sort of hit. (Now it was done in real world with a one sided dagger for a worst case scenerio when your fighting someone with a sword. However that isn't a lightsaber where laying it against your arm will burn your own arm and a powerful blow can disable your own arm.
+Josh Campbell Name users that used the reverse grip without complications( or cutting off their arms)? And manage to use it effectively! But, that's not the reason why I like it. I see it very effective towards normal grip user that lacks dexterity and handle with the lightsaber( also mobility in footwork). What makes you think I want to face you with reverse grip only when I can change the position and angle of my weapon(wrist work) to strike at vector's you can't defend against? Not only that, it goes great with unarmed combat/force abilities!
I have had such trouble trying to figure out what style(s) I would use, but I think I finally summed it up to Niman, as some of the specific strengths and weaknesses of the other forms don't appeal to me, but I like bits and pieces, like Makashi's probing offensive, Shien/Djem-So's defend and counter strategy, and Niman's application of force powers.
My style would be built off of III, back by Qui-Qon Jinn's modified IV, and all balanced out by VI.
My final pick is: Form 6, 3, 5 and 4. 6 as my main, to work the fight out, (such as trying to fight how I want it to play out)3 when I'm getting overwhelmed by the opponent, 4 to be swift and deal quick strikes and 5 to power through and parry and counter.
Note: Sometimes, I choose balance to get better at everything. Got a speed problem? I'm good. Power? Good. And other stuff. I love your videos Antoine Bandele.
Well.... I mean like said in the vid u are quite moderate. Tho your Niman backbone style does has good fall backs and sub styles at the end of the day u aren't the most powerful,defensive or Fastest. You are more or less a tempo fighter based on how you described your style. Like a mix of Revan and Exar Kun.
@@piercewise2232 Yay! Thanks. My character uses those styles (Edge Marek), but having sprinkles of Form 4 and Form 7 instead.
I would learn all of the forms but my most used ones would be
Form 2
Form 3
Form 5
Form 7
and maybe a little Jar kai, just in case
Could you also cover duel blade fighting
Thanks
Form 6 with hints of form 3 is my go to for styles, form 6 seems to be a very common choice as it is a very powerful form, especially if you would focus on the force.
Revan actually used Soresu, Ataru, and Juyo, per the TOR game files. Drew Karpyshyn's belief that Revan used Niman isn't official. However, since the study of Niman is canonically a prerequisite to using Jar'kai, and since Revan used Jar'kai in the Shadow of Revan expansion of TOR, it's safe to assume that he knew Niman.
Basically the best examples of users of the individual forms (not counting Shien)
Shii-Cho - Kit Fisto, Lucien Draay, Lanoree Brock
Makashi - Count Dooku, Shaak Ti, Asajj Ventress
Soresu - Darth Zannah, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luminara Unduli
Ataru - Yoda, Ven Zallow, Kas'im
Djem So - Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Plo Koon
Niman - Kao Cen Darach, Exar Kun, Revan
Juyo - Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Bane
Vaapad - Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba
a quick question, shouldn't ataru and djem so be strong against shii cho because they are geared towards single combat?
+Pierce Wise yes but its a lot less drastic as form 1's weakness to from 2 because from 2 was made to counter form 1 tactics and maneuvers. from 7 could also be said to have an advatage
Darth Sidious was a forum 7 user . He was a master of all forums but 7 was his preferred. Reven also used 7 not 6 but used a twin blade variant
Personally I would focus mainly on Ataru with Soresu as my secondary form for long fights or to learn my enemies fighting style before engaging with Ataru, however I would implement Ataru much like qui-gon jinn did with a larger focus on strength rather than a pure focus on speed, and I would wield a standard green single bladed lightsaber
That was the typical dual-form of most Jedi.
There were some definite holes in strong practitioners of Ataru, imagine a form 5 member like Malgus literally grabbing an intermediate to master of Ataru and slamming back and forth like it was Smash
Form 2: Makashi is stated multiple times to be effective against Form 3: Soresu and demonstrated with Obi-Wan’s multiple defeats against Dooku.
Makashi is outright stated as the ultimate refinement for lightsaber to lightsaber combat. A pure defensive state in means you let the opposition have absolute freedom to grind you down, or you lure them into a trap with a Force-based attack. But Makashi masters rarely bash their heads into a granite boulder, they go grinding it down, carving it the way they want. But then the Jedi started abusing form V and dabbling in everything to learn form VI.
Hey, I have to ask, do you think you can try something like this with Avatar bending styles? I mean, i feel curious to know the different bending strengths and weaknesses in combat.
Hmmm. Perhaps I should, actually.
Thank you for pronouncing the names of the forms correctly. For some reason most people who discuss them ever bother to pronounce them properly.
I have to admit, Makashi is my personal favourite, though I admit its scope is narrow.
Very good job. After all, describing all the forms in 10 minutes is not an easy task!
I try to adhere to brevity on this channel where I can.