Disney's First Gay Stereotype | Dreamsounds
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
- Maybe Disney's real first gay character was the friends we made along the way
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Photos and video sources used in intro montage:
Disney, Mickey Mouse comic from 1932
NBC News, Photo from "Stonewall 50: The Revolution"
Photo of Gene Malin from JD Doyle's personal collection (queermusicheritage.com)
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00:00 Introduction
02:19 Silly Symphonies
03:54 The Cookie Carnival
04:27 Queercoding
07:19 Disney's First Gay Stereotype
12:15 Our History - Zábava
Who's your fav queercoded Disney character? Doesn't have to be a villain✨Mine is Ferdinand the Bull
General Li Shang from Mulan, the looks he gives before he even knows her gender identity is just so heartwarming. _Like... C'mon_ :)
I would probably say Gaston. Sure, he's one of the most despicable characters disney has ever made, but he's so over the top and hammy that you kinda forget about his villainy
Elsa was my queer awakening so she has a special place in my heart
I'd have to say Ursula because she was based of Divine and Poor Unfortunate Souls is a fucking banger.
Actually, the whole concept of Neverland is pretty queer. It gives me aro/ace vibes and scaping from the heteronormative world and heterotemporality. And Peter to me can be read as a trans guy (the book Peter Darling aproaches the idea). The whole story is very special to me as I see myself somehow entirely represented.
If a character is not stated to be gay people will debate it forever, but if it is stated then people will forever complain about it being shoved down their throats.
Well one is show not tell and the other is terrible writing most of the time not cuz there is a gay character but because the writers seem to not know how to write it naturally and use it to make exciting scenes or further the plot in a creative way
@@menaatefadly those are retroactive justifications for hair-trigger homophobia
@@good2goism I don't think so. It could definitely come off as annoying to a bunch of people if there is a character that's gay and their whole entire personality is them being gay constantly mentioning their gay. I think that would be a poorly written character.
@@PeterGriffin11 But when there are straight characters whose whole personality is being straight, no one ever complains about their heterosexuality being "shoved down their throat". I agree that bad writing is bad, but let's be real, there's a massive double standard when it comes to queer characters existing in media whatsoever.
@@PeterGriffin11 you dont hate "forced representation", you hate bad writing (as most do). reactionaries poisoned the well by attaching the concept of bad writing to minorities
In the UK, "nonce" is a known expression for someone who has sex with children, and is also used in proxy as a gay slur. It is thought to originate from a prison acronym for 'Not On Normal Courtyard Exercise', as these prisoners would be segregated from others in case they were victimised for their crimes and attacked by the other prisoners.
Wait I didn't know that was were it came from, that's so interesting
And that's why this character never came back.
That seems to be a different word. Also the only source for the acronym is from 2012 and thought to be a backronym
That's most likely a _backronym,_ where an acronym is made up for the word after the fact. An example is the word "fuck", which gets misidentified as originally meaning "fornication under the consent of the king".
Does the comment get deleted if you use the P-word? I feel like "someone who has sex with children" is an unnecessarily soft word choice.
Then again I've also been known to argue its inappropriate to refer to it as sex unless consent exists, and that barring that, only the other terms are representative. So maybe this is more of a philosophical difference.
I gotta say, as a gay male actor today I feel like a good number of the roles I get cast in are an evolution of this Nance character- effeminate, flouncy, comic relief, and one dimensional.
There are plenty of gay male actors who get plenty of vast good roles and are well recognized or remembered even if during their own lifetime they were not accepted or open about it. Maybe your acting skills need an evolution. Being gay does not make you necessarily a talented actor.
@@jlex1049 wtf is this comment
@@HobieInTheBox You can read I trust? Think about it a little while. No need to agree, but try using those dead brain cells for yourself for once.
@@jlex1049 Where the fuck did this come from?
@@jlex1049 the roles you are cast in (especially as an actor who is new in the industry) are determined by what people write for “people like you”. OP is stating that the way gay men are treated in the film industry today borrows from the damaging sterotypes of the past. Gay men are still regarded as feminine and sassy, but rarely in popular movies do you see one of these men as the main character of a story.
I've never noticed it before. Many of these old stereotypes are men who are well combed and sharply dressed, wearing clothes only rich people would afford back then. Were these depictions actually a mockery of the high class? One could even argue that the angel food cakes represent the holier-than-thou group of people.
There are other examples throughout history of anti-ruling-class sentiment taking shape in queerphobic ways -- stuff that emphasizes the idle rich as "foppish", "decadent", "sexually-deviant", etc. -- so it very well could have been both. Unfortunately, there are lots of people out there who support causes in disjointed ways, trying to advance a valid movement at the expense of other marginalized groups. See white/TERF feminists who throw women of color/trans women under the bus, unions that take anti-immigration stances, Palestinian liberation activism sometimes attracting anti-semites, etc, for analogous examples of that.
Taking in mind your interpretation, it gives me the same impression as the Jewish princess or the decadent oriental sultan. It's like, you can criticize wealth, but only through a particular lense. It's hardly ever the failing of rich men or women who are white or otherwise normative, it's some foreigner or some strong-willed woman or an eccentric individual; it's not the ruling *class*, per say, but these individuals with no class.
Yeah exactly I see those depictions all the time and their not gay people. People always assume they are gay
It's a Dandy or Fop archetype. It actually has little to do with homosexuality at the time, but as the world changed the majority of dandies/fops were homosexuals. Then this evolved into "camp gay"
@@daivambrosia6647 the nobility *were* often foppish. That's not a depiction. That's a fact. They acted and dressed in a manner which wasn't that of the working peasants
I remember seeing some of these cartoons and not really understanding why they made the voices so funny or had guys with eye lashes. It never bothered me, I just felt really confused about it and moved on. But I'm glad someone is going over this because it confused me up until this day; I was raised in a household that accepted everyone for who they are so differences like that never struck me as odd, only when animations or older shows tried to make a show of it did I get confused.
It’s especially weird because men usually have longer lashes so idk why it’s considered “feminine”
@@queenofcute72 Eyelashes are literally just made to protect the eye and since naturally men would be in the most danger I guess they developed longer lashes so why is it feminine?
@@ggmmdh I never said they were feminine. I said it was weird that they are considered feminine. Did you not see the quotation marks?
@@queenofcute72 Im sorry the way i worded that comment was really bad i meant to say: Eyelashes exist to protect the eyes. In nature, males would usually be in the most danger. This is probably why the have longer eyelashes. So yeah, I don’t know why they’re considered feminine either.
Same Thing Happened To Me
I sometimes feel like the discussion about "negative stereotypes" ends up, I dunno...misdirecting the conversation in a way? It seems to end up with people deciding that certain traits and certain characters just shouldn't ever exist in media. But there absolutely can be real people who have "stereotypical traits". Just using the example kind of talked about in this video,: "effeminate" gay men exist--that's not ALL gay men, certain, but it is some of them. And how much does it suck to be told that YOU are a "negative stereotype" who doesn't deserve to be seen in media?
Really the issue is how characters with those traits are treated--are they always the butt of the joke because of those traits, are they treated shallowly or disrespectfully, ect. I actually think we need MORE effeminate gay men in fiction, just ones that are treated as fully fledged characters, or not made fun of constantly, maybe even ones who get to be the hero instead of the sidekick. But it seems like gay characters who "break stereotypes" are often automatically considered to be "better representation"...and I'm just not sure that's true--especially when breaking "gay" stereotypes often means just more closely conforming to traditional gender roles and expectations.
Like what was said in this video, it's complicated, and I agree that we need to acknowledge that complexity, which might involve reframing completely how we even talk about stereotypes in media in the first place.
I never thought of that. Thank you for posting this 😊
I agree.
That's what I thought. When people watch a film and it has one character from a certain group, audience will think "hey, this character represents EVERYONE in that certain group." When really, the character only represents SOME people in that certain group. I feel like, whatever movie people watched, they shouldn't overgeneralize that a certain character represents EVERYONE in a certain group that they're a part of, but only just a handful of them. Just keep an open mind that not everyone is the same.
It's less about what traits are used and more so how they're presented in the media and the tone of them as they're being used. Ig tone is the major part that these things hinge on.
Fitting cliches or stereotypes CAN be fine, but it's heavily rely on the intent/how it's handled.
@@maxskellington910 Yeah, true. It depends on how the filmmakers execute the characters.
I ADORE the Cookie Carnival and I didn't see the Angel Food Cakes as queer-coded. I saw them as a stereotype of supposedly morally good people, specifically the tuttering, finger-wagging type that would never drink, smoke, or take the lord's name in vain. Probably faint if someone swore. Ned Flanders comes to mind. They seem to be more the "Goody Two Shoes" where the Devil's Food Cakes were singing in a way what a morally good person would view a sinner. The music is fast with scatting which wasn't something that the Jazz community was happy with. They're doing something they shouldn't be doing when it comes to music in the eyes of many, hence the devil part.
But Cock Robin, yeah. I believe that was intentional.
With their glasses they seem less queercoded and more of that Ned Flanders type. Which, both were more or less regarded as effeminate or at least non-masculine. But, there’s a lot of overlap between stereotypes, so one can never truly know.
That’s exactly what I think. I watched Cookie Carnival when I had already came out as part of the LGBTQ+ community. I always just assumed they were extremely exaggerated versions of the shoulder Angels and Devils we see in TV shows, and I still do
Yeah they gave me extreme Ned Flanders vibes! 🤣
Bruh they are called f r u I t c a k e s
yeah, as a queer person, i never felt like they were queer coded at all? it's so strange lol, the pastries look so cute and innocent. but i do understand this person's video.
I think the fact they are fruitcakes is enough to suggest they are gay stereotypes. Fruitcake was a term used to mean queer. I remember it being used as late as the early 2000s.
Sadly, they were not Angel Food Cake with berries. That would have been so insulting it would curve right back around to beiing hilarious
The scene immediately are them are a pair of devil fruitcake, but they act coarse and aggressive.
Then again that whole segment is about cookies competing to marry a girl cookie.
You know why did people call gay people fruitcakes? Like did gay people like to eat fruitcake or something Like is it just me or what.
I don't think they were fruit cakes. Were they? I thought they were angel food cakes
@@lookaguy6255 According to the Wikipedia article on the term, "fruitcake" as a gay slur probably derived from the expression "nutty like a fruitcake," implying that gay people are mentally ill.
I made a slideshow in 5th grade about how Disney was racist
Haha, that's kind of awesome. How did it go?
Quite well actually. No one was opposed! Thanks
Honestly tho. Ur right
@@budbud2639 damn i never made any presentation in school yet but i do remember being open abt how sum things are wrong in 5th and amin 4th everyone was comfy abt ppl and their sexualities
Cool. In school we had this thing where you got two presentations where you could research anything. I chose toy history and Disney racism
Oh shit. I just remembered, it was either book three or book four of Harry Potter which had the phrase Nancy Boy.
It was when Dudley got the letter home from smeltings and uncle Vernon says that he "Didn't want a squatty little Nancy Boy for a son!"
Vernon is so vile that him openly using a gay slur doesn't even seem out of character. That said, I *am* a little surprised that Rowling's editor and\or publisher let her get away with that. Not really suitable language for a YA book, even if it is coming from a terrible person.
@@jasonblalock4429 the words b*t** and sl** were used in books three and seven. Are we really surprised?
@@Dressup_Doll looking back at me reading those books at 9, i feel disgusted that those words were used and i couldn’t even notice
@@jasonblalock4429 Harry Potter is aimed at young teenagers and I guarantee middle school kids have heard far worse than “Nancy boy” at school from their own classmates.
@@Dressup_Doll I recall that “Bitch” in book three was used to mean a female breeding dog-literally. That was the original definition of the word and it’s precisely why it became a slur for women; it reduces girls to animals that pump out babies and nothing else. And it was again used by one of Harry’s horrible extended family members.
My grandma had a boxset of silly symphonies and my brother and I loved them when we were little. I've rewatched clips of them recently and amongst the nostalgia and fond memories I've been absolutely horrified by the racist and homophobic stereotypes - I feel so conflicted. Peter Pan and Aristocats were two of my favourite movies growing up too but now that I'm more educated on the issues surrounding them I feel like I can't watch them anymore. It's such a shame.
You can still watch them if you want. Lady and The Tramp is a movie that is very nostalgic to me and I can still enjoy it while knowing it was a product of it's time.
It's DUMBO for me.
Peter Pan, omg, he's such a jerk, but the children decide he's the hero. Which is the dark side of Peter's tale. Wendy and Tiger Lilly deserved so much better. So did the mermaids and Tinkerbell. His presence is a good lesson as to why the 'pretty one' with the ever lasting parties is not your best friend. We all face these moments in our favorite children's stories. It is why fairytales are always rewritten, adapted for the current generation. Otherwise, Disney would be known as a horror film company if they stuck to the original Grimm Fairytales in full details, including people eating children. It is all right. Not all our beloved children tales can be enjoyed by us when we are adults for one reason or another.
Hey. Just have fun watching the damn movies.
"You are not immune to propaganda" -Garfield
It's honestly really disturbing how bigoted the media I grew up with was. A lot of it is subtle but imo that just makes it more insidious. I have no desire to revisit any of it. That stuff deserves to stay in the past.
6:20
I always find riduculous how some homophobes claim that being gay is "a choice" implying they can be gay too if they wanted.
I mean, even if it was a choice. So is going on a diet and getting a haircut. Some homophobes should want that loo
@@robin9759 want that "loo" ?
@@Crygear too*
Isn't being gay is a choice or am I missing something here
@@bluebird5933 If being gay was a choice, not a lot of people would be gay.
After watching this I’m curious to know what the first lesbian stereotype was. Does anyone have any ideas?
I guess it depends on what you consider a stereotype and what you simply consider a portrayal.
Does women (half of them in drag) dancing together in The Merry Jail (1917) by Ernest Lubitsch count?
The first *explicitly* lesbian film I can think of might be Mädchen in Uniform (1931)
That’s a great question. I don’t know of any lesbian stereotypes from the same period as the cartoons I talk about in this video. It seems like lesbians of the time faced slightly different situations - not comparing oppression because I don’t believe it was *easier*, just different than many AMAB people who were pigeonholed into the “gay men” field of stereotypes. For example, a part of lesbian experience in the early 20th century was about mainstream society not even being aware that they existed and that their feelings were real. So, I’ve yet to see any jokes about lesbians make their way into writing rooms at the same frequency that lazy jokes about gay men did. And, again, gay men also had people doubting their existence, but tropes like the Nance show that they had more of a mainstream presence in comedy of the time. Some bisexual/lesbian icons that pushed WLW aesthetics and narratives from the time include Bessie Smith, Ma Rainey, Marlene Dietrich, and Claire Waldoff.
As for how that plays into Disney, I’ve always seen Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty as queercoded, especially given the narratives of the time that stereotyped lesbians as being inherently predatory/disruptive to cisheteronormative society. As for coding that had an explicit reference, the version of Cruella de Vil from One Hundred & One Dalmatians was based off of Tallulah Bankhead, an actress of the time who was WLW (she referred to herself as a “ambisextrous” person) known for campy roles and mannerisms. If you want to learn more about that, I made a video called “It’s Good to Be Bad” where I go more into the queercoding of that. And for more on lesbians and early Disney, my video “The Lesbian Mickey Mouse Café” goes more into that. I hope that’s helpful, if you have any more questions let me know :)
@@DreamsoundsVideo Wow, thanks for the response! I always knew that Ursula was based on a drag Queen but never that Cruella was based on a WlW actress, that’s interesting.
@@DreamsoundsVideo Not really relevant, but I have this headcanon that (a) all the Disney Villains are penpals with each other (and b) that Maleficent has a crush on the Evil Queen
@@DreamsoundsVideo I think that tracks. I'd say Ernest Lubitsch (who I mentioned above) *did* have queercoded characters in some of his earlier work, but gay subtext was far more prominent in his work than the lesbian equivalent.
Were they calling the cakes Angel food cakes or Angel fruit cakes? Because if it was the latter that could point to it being the first gay stereotype because fruit cake was a slur for gay people back then
I'm tempted to say "Angel Food" because, well, that's literally a type of cake. However, they are shaped more like fruit-cakes than most pan-made angel-food cakes.
That was my question, too. After listening again, I think it says "angel food cake." The shape was distinctive for angel food cake in the 60s.
The scene immediately after the angel fruitcake, that this video left out, are a couple of devil fruitcake and they act the opposite, being coarse and aggressive.
I just thought they were little old ladies. 🤷♀️
Wait so is that why when a scene in a show is like "gay" people call them fruity for that?
For me I Just thought it was funny and cause fruits have more pretty colours lol
The Cookie Carnival has always been my favorite Silly Symphony, even with the queer coding of the Angel Food Cakes followed by the racial coming/stereotyping of the Devil Food Cakes. Thank you for mentioning them! I've never heard of Who Killed Cock Robin, but this was a fascinating watch.
Not to mention Miss Liqourice... oh boy...
@@greenbird6435 WAIT WHAT
@@Quackervoltz theres a racist black mintrel character named miss Liquorice
Honestly I always thought the angel food cakes were women, but looking back I realized that would be even less likely, considering they were trying to propose to the queen
@@greenbird6435 I just saw. Holy shit
I remember the _Robyn_ cartoon. I had it on a vhs in the 80's. Back then I was confused wether Cupid was male or female - no wonder I was just a kindergarden kid.
I've seen Cookie Carnival here on youtube, and while the Angel Food Cakes are pretty effeminate, they're also meant to contrast the Devil's Food Cakes, and they're competing to marry the girl. That doesn't subtract from the stereotyping, but context can add understanding
sometimes there is a fine line between "sweet and innocent" and "effeminate".
@@LCTesla They are sweet and innocent, idk where the effeminate thing is coming from.
@@LCTesla they are sweet and effeminate but are competing to marry a cookie of the opposite sex.
I think it's telling that when Silly Symphonies were about fairy tales or anthropomorphic nature, stereotypes were few and far between, but the one time they tackle popculture in "Who Killed Cock Robin", suddenly the short is shock full of them.
Between cupid and the blackface caricature I was like wooooow 🥴
You never disappoint in the quality of your work and the message that you send. I've frequently said similarly, "In order to move forward, you have to know where we've been."
It *may* (and typically is) uncomfortable to see and experience - and not *always* learning things you'd want or expect (e.g "bad gays").
However, this is the only way to continue a path of progress.
Thank you for another amazing video and everything else you do.
I always thought Bugs Bunny was a bit of a gay icon. He had a very campy sense of humor, and he was always dressing up in women's clothing and kissing Elmer Fudd on the lips...
Gay bird moment
I think I get it.
the thing is: it’s not being “over dramatic” or “over sensitive.” it’s realizing that putting a stereotype into something is typically used to mock a community in a negative way instead of having representation.
But why does it matter? The latest example of all this was nearly a century ago. I'm sure there are more recent examples but still, Disney has changed, so why does this even matter?
@@stellar2926 it’s not a matter of disney changing, this happens everywhere and it’s difficult to find something where homosexuality isn’t used for a quick laugh using stereotypes. personally my biggest issue is that it’s either used for laughs, or it’s used for fake representation where it’s overdone.
What about that dude from one piece that can change hes body
Cry
@@misterboxhead3045 i don’t see how that’s relevant sorry
Very interesting. I got the awnser of an question that i would like to know and a lesson on old vocabulary. Keep up the good work :3
Woah hi you watch Dreamsounds too? :0
@@VeryCrunchyPretzels Crunchy??? OMG it's so cool to find you in an channel outside of our friend group :3
@@Liliana_the_ghost_cat lol yeah, I saw another one of your comments on a video about Birdo yesterday too XD
@@VeryCrunchyPretzels witch one? I watched multiple
@@Liliana_the_ghost_cat the one by Paper Will
Although the angel food cakes were most definitely a stereotype, I really wouldn't call it negative. I mean, they were portrayed as "angel" food cakes, something meant to symbolize something good. I don't really see where this idea of transphobia came from in some of the comments here.
People being easily offended, this video also being easily offended. Because calling anything -phobic in the name of being offensive means you must be right.
Only two minutes in and it's as well-made as ever; keep up the great work!
Edit: Wasn't disappointed.
I just enjoy the movie. It's like a time capsule . I do not think we should erase the movie with these stereotypes. That would be like rewriting history, and pretending like it never happened.
Despite all I still enjoy the cookie carnival cause of the leading lady being cute but respectful queen and allows the man who helped her be king despite not being on that stage
Ahh, back in the days where INCREDIBLY discrimitory stereotypes were okay. What a time it must've been to be alive.
You didn't need to blur the nazi wolf, you know. Pretty sure the algorithm can't tell with that kind of thing. If anything, I'd be more worried about a DMCA from Disney.
the video would get blocked in germany and much of europe because nazi imagery is censored there
@Joseph The nazi being there is not itself racist, especially in a toon showing them as bad. By that logic Spielberg is being racist by having nazis in Saving Private Ryan.
i don't know if i agree with the angel food cake being queer coded, i mean they were competing for the affection of a woman.
queer also covers sexualities that shows affections for all genders, you can be a bisexual man with more of a "feminine" touch and still want to be with women. queer is a collective word for the whole LGBTQA+ community, not just for the LGT :)
@@sarasmedberg8203 ok that is a fair point
@@sarasmedberg8203 Queer in the modern world it can mean literally anything, back then it meant gay. The Cookie Carnival is not being "queerphobic" the angels food cake are being "sweet and innocent" in contrast to the devil food cake who are "mean and evil"
@@bishopadhemaroflepuy8377 Even worse, the original meaning of queer meant abnormal, deformed, not quite right - "He's gone queer in the head" ( psychosis)
It's the main reason lots of older LGBTI etc people hate the word, they remember it as a slur.
It's also one of the reasons older rightwing commentators love the word. They remember it as a slur and still use it as a slur under the pretext of being politically correct.
I myself am not fond of the word after doing some research into it's origin. It started out as a heterosexual slur to gay men.
I compare it to the n word. The black community have kept that words legacy- an insult that only they can use with impunity.
The LGBTI community have tried to own it but i feel uneasy when i hear homophobes using it in a mocking way. They know the original meaning, and enjoy using it as an insult.
I prefer the acronym GSD - Gender/sexually diverse.
It covers everything from bicurious to gender fluid. It even covers people who identify as queer. Also phobic people can't mock it, older gays accept it, its short and easy to remember.
@@graphite2786 It meant "gay" as an insult.
I think one of the suspects is supposed to be either an Irish or black street thug stereotype, but don't know a specific actor he would have been modeled on. The other unmentioned suspect is clearly based on Harpo Marx, so reason to believe there was model for this one too. I've seen Edward G. Robinson suggested.
The jury switches between styles so their "he ain't done nothin" bit could be interpreted as blackface minstrely.
Cut from the short was an ambulance chasing lawyer named "Sam Ginsbirg" so, yeah, there was that too.
Dan Cupid is not actually a villian. As far as the story's narrative goes, he is just a device to set up the trial. Cock Robin was presumably already smitten by Jenny Wren so there would be no need for cupid's arrow
I love showing people 'The Cookie Carnival' because it's just this... juxtaposition of beautiful older animation and *so many racial and queer stereotypes* like I know you didn't touch on it but hoooo boy how they portray certain types of cookies is. Whoof.
My mom used to show me old disney animations and looney toons and neither of us realized the homophobic, queer coded, or racist stereotypes or characters. We definitely should have had these conversations sooner.
Same
I saw this as a kid, I’m gay and still think Dan Cupid is funny? It’s all in good fun, if I can’t have a laugh at myself I’m truly screwed
The pop culture use of “Nancy boy” (and “ponce”) that I think of immediately is the frequent use of the phrase and variants by the character of Spike (a British vampire from the 1800s) in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I knew what it meant, though I couldn’t have said from where (Monty Python maybe? The Goon Show? I have always been something of a British comedy fan and am old enough to know a good bit of much older material), but over the years as a fan, rewatches result in a lot more cringing.
the whole cookie carnival and silly symphonies bit reminds me of pirate empress Big Mam's homeland Totland from One Piece
As a queer and trans person, I've realized the more I've grown I've realized alot of Disney's older stuff has alot of homophobic stereotypes. Ty for making this video! It was really well made
Back then it was CONSIDERED ok
But it really WAS NOT!!!!
Everything is offensive lmao
@Natalie What it says. If someone doesn't like something or finds it offensive, it's automatically cancelled. Butter, a box of pancakes, a cartoon dog, i could go on and on
@@cajunking5987 Queer is definitely not homophobic… what do you think the Q in LGBTQ+ means..
@CajunKing it became a slur but its been very much successfully reclaimed- beyond that actually- “queer” is used as a term for the lgbtq+ community often used by MEMBERS of it
- a queer person
I thought the angel cake/pound cake characters from "the cookie carnival" short were old ladies. They were looking for a king for the queen of the parade but I found it weird to see "grandmas" in the "future king" section. Guess that answers my question
How does this not have more views? This was so cool to learn.
That one with the angel food cakes was in this Christmas themed Disney crossover movie, similar to House of Mouse. I thought they were supposed to be old women.
There was a video about Evangelian being overrated, and the Netflix versions Straight-washing was brought up and it was hilarious how many people can't see that Shinji and Kworu are attracted to each other.
Examples they included was "how can Shinji be gay when he jerks off to Rei?" And "he's not gay, he likes Asuka!" I tried to explain that Shinji is bisexual, but they countered with the same "you're just seeing what *you* want to see!" Argument lol.
Shinji is not bisexual. Shinji is a pervert
This video is so well made
Your voice is so nice to listen to. Especially with the jazz. Lol I love it
i love that silly little gay bird
Amazing nuance in your videos!
Wait, how many stereotype characters have Disney made?
Not just gay stereotypes, but also others.
If you count disney channel there is a lot of stereotypes.
There are a shit ton of black and Asian stereotypes in older Disney Cartoons
This was beautifully and expertly made!
solid work man. had me and my gF talking about deep stuff over coffee. :D
Another character that I believe to be queer coded is Dopey from Snow White. He's definitely effeminate but not to the extent of what's shown here, he's also one of the most entertaining characters from the movie and is usually the favorite of the dwarves (only rivaled by grumpy), not to mention he's the butt of the joke most of the time.
I always thought he was feminine too! But not to the extent of being queercoded, really I just see Dopey as.....Dopey
@@dixiethedog2594 fair enough lol
Bruh just because he’s childlike friendly cute bald and goofy doesn’t make him gay y’all are trippin😭🤦🏽♀️
@@azure8091 again same point the dude in the video making. He is queercoded, but due to laws if he was intended to be gay we'd never know.
I always thought he was Neurodivergent forget the coding
Was Dan Cupid based on a specific celebrity of the day?
Good question. He said the voice was based on Ed Wynn (and very loosely, imo), but aside from that, I can't recognize anything.
In the quote I reference in the vid, it says that he was also based off of Ed Wynn, who was a vaudeville actor who also played the Mad Hatter in Disney's original Alice in Wonderland
the cookie carnival is on a dvd of Disney princess christmas! I watched it a lot when I was little
The Cookie Carnival is so creative and well animated for it's time, the different types of cakes dancing for the cookie queen is so cute
Ok I know he's a harmful stereotype but come on... Danial Cupid is an ICON!
dont get at me for this i'm literally gay
The concept of "coding" itself is a tangle of complications for a few reasons:
1. Boiling a character down to its inspirations is a bit reductive and ignores the nuances of the character itself.
2. Trying to find stereotypes about a type of person in a character inadvertently reinforces those stereotypes as representative of the entire group.
3. Some characters were simply not intended to be coded, which leads to weirdos on twitter posting "this character is black" and listing off a bunch of racial stereotypes, which only adds to the previous 2 reasons.
Coding was meant to get around restrictions and oppressive laws around what could and could not be shown in media. Example, the HAYES code, which prevents gay characters from being depicted. Often times extremely flamboyant characters were made the villains as an excuse to still have their dramatic flare without offending the censorship powers that be.
For example, in Gravity Falls the two male cop characters are meant to be read/interpreted as gay, however, Disney would not allow them to be outright depicted as romantically involved because of censorship laws in other countries. Because of this, the writers were not able to depict the characters as actually dating or being romantic towards each other, and instead had to opt for subtext and various silly shenanigans. This happens all the time in TV shows, especially ones on mainstream networks which will be shown in other countries. The upper managment will often crack down on what can and can't be displayed because they want to market to other countries with stricter laws over censorship, often at the cost of the original work and much of the character's interpersonal relationships being scrapped if they don't fit the perfect mold.
Another example of this would be in Genshin Impact, though forgive me if I'm a bit off base on this one since I haven't played it myself. Two male characters have a quest where one writes a confessional poem, but doesn't end up giving it to anyone the player is aware of. After the event, the two walk off together, and two blue butterflies are shown on screen. This is a reference to The Butterfly Lovers, and was an intentional attempt to get around censorship by implying the characters are in a relationship without showing so. This practice is common in many countries, since not everyone is even as accepting of queer characters as Western society is.
Coding isn't subtext, either. It's intentional and meant to be read into, sort of like any other instance of "show not tell."
I fully agree with the third statement, it's appalling how racist Twitter can be when it comes to coding characters who aren't even meant to be coded as a specific race/culture.
AGREE 100%, these wokevists don’t realize they’re the ones upholding the stereotypes. Ah, this character is male and effeminate, he must be “qUeErCoDeD”
@@hybriddemon7649 don’t see your example for Genshin Impact as bad, I actually appreciate subtle romance. Don’t care for Gravity Falls because as a kid I hated seeing romance anyways. But saying it’s “qUeErCoDiNg” for male effeminate characters just reinforces that you believe that being male and effeminate must mean it’s “coded” as a gay character, which isn’t always true
@@Laura-Yu I don't recall ever mentioning effeminate men at all in my post. In fact, all I talked about was the history of coding and some examples. Sorry that "wokivists" burned you, but that wasn't the point of my comment.
This video earned you a subscription. Great content.
OH MY GOD cookie carnaval unlocked a core memory for me! they showed it in school a few times, I think. I loved the movement of it! I think I could partially trace back my love of illustration and animation to that
In that same Silly Symphony(Cookie, Carnival) “black Licorice” is shown on a float and she is clearly represented as a black woman in a certain garb Africans wore in America….
Yeah the cookie carnival is very secretly controversial.. it’s shows a tad sexual innuendos in there also…
Probably why that this won’t be on the streaming site but you can always watch it for yourself on CZcams.
Even with all the obvious stereotypes, rascism, and soo much more I still like that one. Lol
What you're talking about reminds me. Cupid in mythology isn't gay(the character you're talking about in the cartoon), but Apollo is(The Robin) and there's a story where Cupid shoots Apollo with an arrow(which I'm guessing the nursery rhyme you're speaking of is based on) and it makes Apollo literally gay, which is perhaps what the animated cartoon is trying to portray in a silly way.
For example, as in Cupid shot Apollo who didn't die, but instead became gay(the original story was written before Christianity got its cold claws on the world and love was just considered a normal part of life) and the cartoon I'm presuming is making a pun that Cupid 'shot' Apollo with his 'arrow' and they're now gay for each other. Maybe that's me going too deep into the meaning of the cartoon. It could be a joke/silly pun that Cupid is giggling and speaking in a higher pitch that he's in a relationship with Apollo so he knows that Apollo is alive and well, just sleeping off something to be implied.
If law disallows outright saying characters are gay, then this would be Disney's clever way of portraying the olden story characters as accurately as they can without breaking US laws of that time period.
Is it just me or do the old animations give off the heebyjeebys
OMG, I remember that episode! I had a DVD collection of Disney shorts/movies growing up!
Just the angel food cakes cause I remember miss black licorice 😐
7:28 In case you thought this was hilarious and wanted to listen over and over like I did lol
Thank you so much 😭😭😭
blessed with narrator's singing voice at the end!!
This deserves so much more views
Is this whole short is weird to me because I swear to God this feels like a looney tune! I mean look at it the stereotypes, the farcical tone, the celebrity parody! The dove was based on Mae West! And then there's the ending which got weirdly racey like I swear the bird is totally motorboating her at the end. This is a very low brow cartoon, at least by Silly Symphony standards.
when i was younger I loved dumbo and my mom would talk about how the minstrel's and the crows weren't okay, I didn't understand, I thought it was funny. I would speak in AAVE to my friends for a laugh....because other kids thought it was funny, Unknowingly contributing to a harmful stereotype. As I got older I realized how wrong it was and how it was doing more harm to myself then anyone else. So I stopped and now I see literally every old disney movie differently....
I thought the Angel Food cakes were girls who were merely performing in a carnival
This video is so beautifully well put. I’m very in the middle when it comes to topics like this but I fully agree with what your saying and I couldn’t have said it better myself. This is incredibly educational for people who don’t take the time to study in depth and then form an opinion or back up their education with historically accurate facts. Opinions aren’t facts but this video is facts.
I was always forced to behave ' straight,' so much so, that It took me years to find out I was uncomfortable being called a femoid. I always was, but I didn't put two and two together because of how forced christianity and 'straightness' was upon everyone.
Wow, how brave and courageous of Disney... to put out the same disclaimer that virtually every other studio has used for the past several decades! 🤔
what studio has done that
@@anime.luv.ray.6384 pick virtually any studio that has re released any TV show/movies from any time previous to the early 2000s. There's a disclaimer either at the beginning, or all over the back of the box.
I found this really interesting, I have a couple old DVD's filled with episodes of silly simphony so I might check it out myself later
This was awesome thanks for making the video
Great video Dreamsounds.
In my opinion with comedy it's important that we take a jab at everyone if we can.
SouthPark does a great job of doing this because it doesn't only have one view point being the butt of the joke but multiple.
Not that there's anything wrong with one viewpoint being the butt of the joke as long as it's in a comedic and not a spiteful sense.
But variety with comedy is important and we can be aware of the harm past works have done whilst also finding the humour in them aswell.
The most important thing to remember is that we're all human and outside of comedy we deserve to be treated with respect and to be mindful of each other.
Stereotypes are based on truth though, as a gay man I can literally tell you that when you go to a gay bar or drag clubs that 80/90% of the guys are acting exactly like this. So I wouldn't say it's negative or offence it's accurate. 🤷♂️
as another gay man, yeah youre right, but stereotypes are VERY often used to mock groups of people
The negative part is when they mock the stereotype.
We finally found Disney's REAL first gay character
OMG MY MUSIC TEACHER PLAYED US THE COOKIE PARADE VIDEO IN 5TH GEADE AND IVR BEEN LOOKING FOR IT EVER SIBCE OMFGG
Walt should be seen for the man he was..... For the premiere of Song Of The South, they had it open Nov 12, 1946 in Atlanta Georgia. James Baskett was not allowed into the venue because he was Black....AND WALT DID NOTHING...
Thank you for this video. And it's back, it had been removed but returned. PBS, Great Performances...Nathan Lane The Nance, well worth watching:
czcams.com/video/TtHpJBYScSQ/video.html
and may I recommend finding The Ritz(1976)...
Honestly, I'm glad more people are acknowledging the not-so-pretty aspects of history & the impact negative stereotypes can have. Stereotypes are something that I've wrestled with a lot, personally. I'm a gay, transgender man who has always had a mix of both stereotypically masculine & stereotypically feminine interests. And while I happen to not fit within some trans male stereotypes, I also do happen to fit within some gay male stereotypes. And I struggled with internal homophobia for years, even after coming out as trans, because my dysphoria had led me to internalize the idea that being attracted to women is "manlier" than being attracted to men.
But I later came to realize that the problem with stereotypes does not lie within how some people fit them, but rather the idea of "Well, I know some people from this demographic are this way. Therefore, all or most of them are. And anyone who doesn't perfectly fit the mold is either a poser or an exception to the rule"- Which is literally what a stereotype is. And I've learned to not pay too much mind to those who judge me before they even know me. Shrek The Third may be by least favorite in the saga, & I don't consider it canon. ...But this quote really speaks to me: "People used to say I was a monster. And for a long time... I believed them. But after a while; You learn to ignore the names people call you, &... You just trust who you are."
Great video as always!
This is the video where I learn the most about historical stereotypes :)
Very educational, thank you :D
I first watched the Cookie Carnival short film via Snow White's segment on the Disney Princess Enchanted Christmas special. I had no clue as a 5 year-old that the angel food cakes were supposed to be men. I was more upset over the fact that they turned the brunette cookie girl into a blonde.
HELLLO FIRST
About the disclaimer, it's better than what other companies are doing; outright pulling problematic episodes (SpongeBob is one example of such happening). Though a stronger warning could be used for extreme cases like Song of the South, the World War II stuff, "Stark Raving Dad", etc.
the segue into a story about being queer was smooth asf
I cant disagree more on the angels, they have dainty soft voices and a sort of ballet dance because they're trying to direct angels. Who have statistically soft voices and gentle movements. Thats a mega leap in logic. Because giving a Maybe male character a choir boy voices means gay stereotype.
I agree with your statement
*Very informative, Dreamsounds!*
Love your videos and have a wonderful day
That birds so dang ugly I hate it
I think its still ok to enjoy these animations even though theres some sketchy stereotypes in them. Separate the art from the artists i suppose
Beware when spewing the "separate art from the artist" dogma. It blinds people to the actual bad stuff inbued in the art way too often. Overtime it becomes the "if it's art/jest it's always ok" mentality, as the ultimate separation of artist from art, when you gauge your eyes to see nothing, to be able to claim nothing exists.
The animations were really good, especially for the time. And the "pesky stereotypes" are presented in jest. Both these facts do not mean the depiction is completely fine, it have always been bad, even then, even if they were widely accepted and nominated to receive prises. It was ridiculing of christian society's "undesirables", was it then, still is today.
Even if it was just the artist that was problematic, the stereotypes are *inside the art*. Are we supposed to separate the art from the art?
No, I agree with "separate the art from the artist". People will complain all day and night about JK Rowling, but do you enjoy Harry Potter any less? For that matter, look at any author/musician/actor from the past; dig deep enough into their personal life, you'll find something "offensive" by today's standards. Does that make their contributions to the world any less meaningful? No, it means they were human, and society's morals have shifted.
I can almost guarantee you, in a few decades, almost everything WE consider acceptable will be regarded with scorn.
@@droth1031 There is no such thing as "today's standards". Stuff that some people PURPOSEDLY MADE TO BE OFFENSIVE to some other people have always been offensive. Duh... It's not that "it was accepted before but isn't now" it's just that now, since "the other" is considered people too, whomever is caught doing the hate game is called out on it.
Most of this "hate game" in ingrained in society, we all do it and most times not even notice, the biggest example of it is the expression "it's a pain in the ass" which was used to describe something as bad as being gay, we ALL use this expression daily, never noticing we are basically saying "as bad as gay". Hate given to a kind of person is usually mistaken for or made into actual culture often. That is why if we dig down on the past of anyone we will find an attack helicopter joke here and an anti-sjw compilation video there, and if we dig into the life of older people we find many sexual harassment and racism cases. These "little occurences" were never not-offensive, but were normal or encouraged behaviour at some point, and some people cannot believe it cannot be normal, because as long as they can tell, it always was. Like "pain in the ass".
Keeping the hate going is what is bad today. Sorry if you think that's offensive
6:24 find it funny it says "Uke ARR" not sure what thats intended to mean, but "uke" in Japanese is a term used for a gay (male) bottom. It has a pair word, "seme". Seme is the shortened version of the word but it literally means "to give" and uke is "to receive"👀
The text is also on the bottom so💀
cookie carnival was my comfort episode when i was younger, i always thought the angels food cakes were old ladies until i got older
Disney nothing. When I think of gay content and "Who killed Cock Robin," my mind immediately goes to this:
czcams.com/video/y_fGJ_yb1C0/video.html
My favorite queercoded Disney character would definitely have to be scar, he honestly is just one of my favorite characters in animation, and he kinda helped me in my own journey of being okay with my identity
*(also he's hot don't judge me)*
_judges you heavily_
@@Persun_McPersonson **shakes fist** *"darn"*
@@Haunted_Plush Fun fact: In the Swedish dub of the Lion King he was voiced by Rikard Wolff, who was openly gay and pretty much perfectly cast: czcams.com/video/wHSugq_rks0/video.html
How is scar queer coded? I don’t mean 2 be rude or say he isn’t I’m genuinely curious
@@demons2987 he kinda had feminine speech, he wasn't particularly masculine and preffered to have the hyenas doing the actual grunt work for him, he just came up with the plans. Also, have you *noticed* how this man holds his wrists. Like bruh. His whole body language and demeanor is that of a royal queen who says to everyone: *"yes, I'm better than you, move aside, peasant"*
Can you make a separate audio of the song in the ending? It’s such a beautiful melody
The Cookie Carnival is one of my most favorite shorts and I've made a little joke that the Angel Food Cakes were actuay fruity and it amuses me that I wasn't the only one who suspected it lol
Angel Fruitcake, angel are often depict as soft and kindly. In the next scene are Devil Fruitcake which depict them as aggressive and coarse. This scene is snipped from the full cookie king carousal segment where each pastry is a play on it's name; ie upside down cake performing while standing upside down, old fashion cookie doing tap dancing, the rum cookies are 3 drunks.
As a queer person I believe this video is a reaching abit for representation. Hopefully the author is not trolling us because they think queer are "fruitcake".
It's not even fruit cake. It's angel and devil's "food cake"
Anyway, same. I see no coding in them. As you said, they're just displaying "angelic" and floaty qualities to adhere to the name of the food.
It really diminished my interest in the rest of the video.
I think the issue with stereotypes in general is that they do exist and we see them everywhere, people emulate stereotypical behaviors all the time and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. But when media tries to use stereotypes, people can't decide whether they hate all stereotypes and want them gone forever, or if removing them supports conformity and kills individuality, which is just as bad if not worse.
All I know is, I grew up being totally sheltered from all LGBT representation (both positive and negative) and it stunted my personal growth a lot. It was years before I finally realized my bisexuality and you know what? I do some pretty stereotypical stuff too.
Or sometimes stereotypes exist for a reason... because you know, more people of a certain community may be doing them, like how (international) Asians may not be as good drivers (aka my mom...)
Gay people: we want some rep please
*this exists*
us: nvm
I *cannot* be the only one who hears some of "Someday My Prince Will Come" in that melody Cock Robin sings.