LPs vs. streaming, what sounds best?
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- čas přidán 16. 11. 2020
- A twist on the old "What sounds better, analog or digital?," this time Steve compares LP to streaming files from Qobuz and Tidal.
www.qobuz.com/us-en/discover
tidal.com
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The gear used in today's comparisons:
SME 15 turntable sme.co.uk/audio/product/model...
SME V tonearm sme.co.uk/audio/product/serie...
Ortofon Cadenza Blue cartridge
Van Den Hul Grail phono preamp audioshield-distribution.com/...
Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ mytekdigital.com/hifi/product... - Zábava
I am 68 years old. I have been a collector of bebop jazz for over 50 years starting in my mid-teens. I have listened to every format imaginable. Frankly, I love all of it, LPs, CDs, cassette tapes, and streaming. After it's all said and done I still find myself playing analog records most of the time. The artwork and the liner notes of LPs are magnificent. There is something that can be said about photography, artwork, and liner notes. You just can't get that in other formats.
Streaming has expanded my musical horizon far beyond what vinyl ever could.
This a really good point. I use streaming for this very reason. I have a Marantz network streamer for Tidal living next to a Rega turntable. They both have their place and individual use cases.
@@tebo2770 I agree completely. It's all entirely subjective, but for me there is some music that just feels like it should be heard on vinyl. I wouldn't want to give up streaming though, as I listen to a lot of music that way. There are albums from my youth that I think I may want on vinyl. Some times after listening to them via streaming I decide I don't really need them on vinyl. Things like playlists on streaming are something that can't be easily duplicated with vinyl.
Listening on your vinyl or CD wont let you fall in a fraud.
The Qobuz free trial and gift voucher is a SCAM.
Be careful before you insert your credit card details or paypal account on their system.
Their website doesn't work so well and will subscribe you to something you don't want.
And complaining to their customer service is useless, they wont refund you.
Check on line, dig on tweetter, have a look of the complains on Trustpilot about this company.
This is my experience.
I've recently bought a Cyrus DAC so I could enjoy my HiRes music more. I chose one with a 3 month free subscription to Qobuz.
It was a bit more expensive because of this but I wanted to try an online music streamer.
I tried to enter the coupon code on Qobuz’s website but it didn’t work and I contacted the help centre. They told me to pay and subscribe to a monthly plan to activate the coupon and so I did but something went wrong. While following their instructions the website redirected me to the page with a yearly subscription selected, which I didn't notice until it was too late. At this point I received a notification from my bank saying I've been charged £149.99. I went to look on the Qobuz website and I saw my voucher was still there unused. I instantly used their website help centre to request a refund and cancellation of the subscription. Their emailed reply said “there is nothing we can do”, followed by the link of their terms and conditions. Every time I contact them, by email or using their website again, they take a day or two to reply and there is no telephone help line or live chat.
I'm also trying to get their attention on Tweetter without any results.
Doing some research on line (Eg. Trustpilot) it appears this is not the first time they have behaved this way.
I feel frustrated for two reasons; having paid for a coupon that I can’t use, and having been charged £150 for a yearly subscription I was not looking for and I don't want. I haven’t streamed or downloaded anything from the service, at all. This seems a bad way for a company to behave.
The overriding argument for streaming is it's opportunity for discovery because so much choice is available
I have just subscribed to Tidal and the first thing that struck me was how wildly inaccurate the description of the musicians is that accompanies the music. I’m currently playing _Calling Mission Mu_ by the Sydney classical group CODA. Tidal describes the music as “heavy metal” and the musicians are completely unknown to me, unlike the members of CODA. I can’t recall an LP cover that was so inaccurate in over 50 years of playing them!
Even as a vinyl guy this is pretty unfair. SME 15 turntable £9k, SME V arm £5k, Ortafon cadenza blue £1300, Van Den Hul Grail £5k, that's £20,000 of vinyl front end VS a £1750 DAC! You wouldn't compare £20k speakers to £1750 speakers.
If you're going to have a fair competition then you should do a 20k vinyl rig vs a 20k DAC. Or a £1750 vinyl rig to a £1750 DAC.
I love vinyl, I also have a cadenza blue, a Garrard 401, audiomods series 6 arm, & an icon audio PS3 tube phono. I have a basic dac for steaming & finding new music I like. If somebody is starting out, unless somebody has bequeathed them a lovely record collection, I'd always say go digital.
So true, I was about to write this myself. It’s often not talked about in this vinyl vs digital but it cost exponentially more to make vinyl sound good.
I'm with rocco036 here. While your DAC choice is a very well respected unit, I do wish you had used a dedicated streaming device to feed it. General purpose computers have always been suspect as to their ability to support really high end sound. With a computer you can never be absolutely sure the data going to the DAC has not been manipulated, and that's not to mention the potential for electrical "noise" bouncing around inside. Dedicated streamers go to great pains to eliminate these potential problems. All of the negative things you say about streaming COULD be due your "front end" choice.
Conversely, Darko is using a Rega P2...
'Nuffsaid ;-)
CD players have decades of development behind them, so if you're going to compare digital with vinyl, I think a really good CD player would have been a better place to start. To my ears, with the upgrades I've done to my CD player, I'm enjoying the music just as much as I did on my Linn turntable before I had to let it go.
Streaming it touted as being better than CD due to high res and being more convenient, however, when I used to watch Darko, before he lost the plot, it seemed to me ludicrously complex. Whilst we're at it, I would not let any computer come near my music play back system, as the shear racket in the circuitry would be a nightmare to deal with down the line. Not to mention the horror of selecting what to listen to. There is a reason restaurants have menus, it's so that people get fed.
I'll add a cheap Bluetooth DAC to my system in the study before the Summer comes so when my family comes around they can hook up their phones and choose the music for the barbecue. Now that's a use for steaming I can get behind. Of course, if I don't like it I'll switch it off and put the Buena Vista Social Club on the CD! 😄
not just the dac too, but a reclocker and a buffered input and all that shit too if were getting into cray cray audiophile bullshittery. even just something like a pi2aes
I've got Brothers In Arms by Dire Straits on both Vinyl and CD, and they sound practically identical (from what I've read the album was recorded on digital tape machines in the mid 80's so it would make sense for them to be identical) apart from the vinyl lacking some of the really low and high frequencies as well as slightly worse stereo separation.
But in the year 2020 the whole vinyl vs digital argument in my opinion is mostly just based on which format has better mastering at this point. Vinyl will of course use the highest resolution files (96khz or 192khz and higher) compared to most digital versions that are either 44.1khz or 48khz (and on most streaming services lossy on top of that..) so it does have an advantage in that regard. But overall it's more about the mastering (as long as you are listening to lossless digital files).
And from my experience most vinyl records have a much more dynamic, better sounding master than any of the digital versions. Digitally distributed music is STILL obsessed with making everything as loud as possible while vinyl is typically mastered to sound as best as possible.
The 2x45rpm MoFi release sounds superb.
The perfect solution: Output digital music and play blank vinyl to a mixer. Voila!
I haven't yet watched this clip, but isn't it true that due to its inherent limitations vinyl cannot be compressed as much as digital ( ironically).
If I were into the music of the last 20 years for better sound I'd go for vinyl, but the convenience ( which we know has always been the biggest factor in recorded music , not quality) music & choice on streaming would be hard to beat .
that was a digital recording, so it's not surprising that the cd sounds as good
Analogue colouration is additive and Digital colouration is subtractive.
This is so true and a great analogy.
Love your work Steve 👍
Steve you are constantly coming up with great new ideas for your shows. This one is really a great topic.
Steve, you keep blowing my mind. After all these years, you are still growing, still learning, still teaching, and still HAVING A GREAT TIME! You keep me coming back. I love it, all of it. (Including the lovely shirts and artwork from Mrs. A!) Many thanks. Keep 'em coming, sir!
Some good points made, but what have we proven? Lps sound better than streaming, or $20,000+ sounds better than $3,000+?
Same thought
Spot on
As a 57 year old guy that is just getting back into vinyl, this was the most interesting video I have seen in a long time. When CD's first came out, like many folks, the convenience was incredible. I'm rediscovering how wonderful vinyl can be though. For me, based on perceptions left over from my youth, being born into an analog world, there is some music and groups that need to be heard on vinyl.
...just discovering old CD's that suffered from "digititus" (shrill/digital sounding) ...now played through my a newly-purchased Metrum Pavane Dac and BAT tubes ... digital is now very close to my Rega P9 ...with the quality of the recording often the determining factor.
I love streaming music. But sometimes I still buy the physical record/cd.
One example is the band XTC. Only about half their albums can be found on streaming services like spotify and Tidal.
I bought virtually nothing but cassettes and CDs for much of the 90s. I basically lived in Europe out of the backpack and a car for more than a decade until 2004. Records collections are not portable without international movers, so I left them all at home in the UK and hardly gave them a thought. I finally imported my records to Paris and since then I have gone back over to buying vinyl almost exclusively. It’s fun. I have been listening to records for 40 years and no regrets!
Right there with you Jeff. I'm 50 myself and have streamed for a long time. Recently bought a Rega table and quickly found that I really enjoy vocal oriented music far better on vinyl. I believe the warmer sound signature of analog works well with vocal and mids in general. But, there is a place and time for both for sure.
When the back catalog of analog was originally transferred to digital, do we believe the attention given to each release was the same as when it was originally released? Do we think the master tapes and playback systems were in as good a shape as when they were new, in all cases? I knew someone that transferred old movies to dvds, at Universal, they were basically in an assembly line situation, working 80 hours a week, during that initial ramp up period. I bet a lot of good music was converted under similar circumstances.
Im not a streamer yet. I’m a vinyl guy with a lot of CDs, SACDs, DVD-A and Blu-Rays. I love it all, and I’ve been floored listening to all mediums from time to time, when the right music catches me at the right time. I’m really grateful that we have all of it.
I don't think so. I worked in a record store when CDs were new and when vinyl was officially removed from stores. Quality was all over the place. I have discs from the 80s that still sound noticeably different from each other.
@@MichelleTackabery I remember listening to my first cds back in the day. They were clean but IMHO they sounded flatter than their vinyl counterparts. I have better gear now but I don't listen to my main stereo much I mostly do it thru a set of Klipsch promedia 2.1 - nearfield.
Not great I know but I added a dragonfly cobalt to help with the sound.
@@marshallhughes4514 I hear you. It really depended upon the artist and the label. Sting's first solo record (Turtles) on CD was amazing compared to one I bought around the same time, maybe The Cure? Of course I first listened to the Sting on an audiophile friend's system, too
Steve, I have to say I thoroughly enjoy your videos. Great reviews, commentary, and I always learn about new albums to check out!
I switched to CD in 1984 for audio quality - every vinyl copy of Talk Talk's 'The Colour Of Spring' had a pressing fault that hissed loudly. People tend to forget nowadays how cheaply made vinyl was in the early 80s, at least in the UK.
I have bought around 200 LPs this year in a variety of styles, and yes, the 80s pressings - especially current pop records - are always the worst sounding. With only the compact cassette to compete with (which was worse!), little thought seems to have been given to quality. The inner groove is simply horrible on those records. These days I seek out the same albums on CD.
It's not only that we're badly pressed ( perhaps a nudge to people to favor CDs?) but at a certain point you couldn't get new releases on vinyl ( or were expensive/ more difficult).
There were a few exceptions (like "More UB40 music" ) but you are so right. The awful quality of LPs killed them off as much as anything else
@@phrtao The profit margin on CDs killed vinyl sales off. It still amazes me that stores charged the same or in some cases more for a CD than a vinyl record!
It was the extremely poor quality of vinyl pressings that induced a great sigh of relief in me when CDs became widely available. I have several LPs that are _completely unlistenable_ and even more where several tracks are. None of that applies to any of the CDs I own. At worst I have three or four CD tracks that refused to rip and needed transferring to my PC via analog. Almost all of my several hundred LPs have been digitised and all of my CDs ripped to FLAC. When I’m listening to music I couldn’t give a damn whether the source is LP, CD or a data stream.
I think i like your videos so much because i can listen to jazz and watch your videos, same time, and neither interferes with the other!
Fascinating video Steve! It’s be interesting to hear what happens when you throw a tube amp into the mix!
The most balanced comparison I have seen. Some prefer the signal processing of vinyl, what you called "additive distortion." That is wonderful - enjoy! I happen to prefer the digital file, to which I can add distortions digitally when I wish. Digital can sound analog if you prefer it.
You the man Steve loving the content always down to earth. Enjoy the music peace.
Now streaming another concert, percussion ensemble, music I would probably never hear anywhere but online. And again, AWESOME!
I enjoy streaming most when used with tube amps. The combo is a good one.
Everyone seems to overlook that vinyl is cut from a master tape or file that must be altered to suit the cutter and groove geometry. Those alterations are by the vinyl masterer. Bass should be moved and carefully kept in check to avoid groove issues. High frequencies may be shaped so the cutter doesn't overheat with signals it can't follow. And a cutter head is, basically, not unlike two speaker motors coupled to a ruby chisel-shaped stylus. You remember how different speakers sound different? So do cutters; they aren't magic. And for fervent feedback haters, fair warning -- cutters use feedback to keep distortion in check. Yet, with great care, patience, and experience, vinyl can be very good. Or, cranked out for the great unwashed, it can be pretty darn crappy -- overdriven, deliberately compressed and limited to keep the playback stylus of a Crosley in the grooves. (On some pop music, this seems desirable.) And to overlay this, the pressing factory may tolerate variances in temperature and the generation of stampers to suit economics. This may be why "remastered" vinyl may be just awful. Or not. There's no accepted way of saying "this is a good one" on the album cover.
What audiophiles do cover, ad nauseum, is playback strategy. All of that is also in the cutting, which you never see.
It may not be enough to just say, "I love vinyl." There's a lot of artistry in mastering vinyl, and it shows. You might have to say, instead, "I love some vinyl." -Just One Man's View.
Great perspective
Thank you Jim, I had no idea of this craft before your response here.
What about the Columbia House crappy pressings that you would get 21 LPs for a penny if you bought 6 more at regular overprice? The vinyl was thin and so was the sound. I never had a way to prove it back then, but Columbia House must have had their own pressing machines. The label said "reproduced under license". Jim brings up a great point about the production issues of vinyl.
hear, here!
As usual with many things, production quality tradeoffs often matter more than the reproduction devices utilized.
@@peteway9377 Yes. Audiophiles often spend $thousands trying to make a vinyl 'silk purse' from a vinyl 'sow's ear.' I know, I have. Somebody should make a small, attractive "resolution reducer" with a big round, machined-from-billet-aluminum knob. In its highest setting, it could make your $50K system sound like an Emerson portable phono/record changer circa 1960. Call it an "Audio Enhancer." Put a price of $6999 on it. Offer a model with lighted VU meters to match a McIntosh for $12999.
Documentary photographer Sebastio Salgado runs his perfect digital images through a computer program that makes them look like grainy tri-x film. There's just something more satisfying about analogue.
Heh, I wish I had a program that took the trip-x out of some of my old film negatives.
“Better” is a funny word. People tend to like the idea that we are objectively assessing things when we determine our likes and dislikes. You ask people what “better” means in this context and most would say it’s more true to the source… accurate. Given the choice, they pick the sound that best meets their expectations regardless of which is actually more accurate. Steve’s expectations for what Paul McCartney’s voice sounded like singing “Maybe I’m Amazed” were set by that record, and slightly amended every time the needle slid through the grooves, slightly rounding off the corners and peaks.
In an apples to apples comparison using the exact same master tape, digitized to a WAV file on a cd or a flac file in a drive, and then run through an r-2r DAC; compare the waveform out of the DAC to what’s on the master tape and there will be far less distortion than what comes out of even the best phono preamp with the best cart and the best turntable playing a record made from the same master… every time. There is no such thing as mechanical perfection and there is too much room for error in analog recording, storage and reproduction for vinyl to come anywhere close to digital in terms of actual accuracy.
I love vinyl, because vinyl is my favorite flavor of distortion. I like the warm hiss and the smooth sound. I appreciate the imperfections that remind me of the truly imperfect nature of life. It’s the same reason why I can’t listen to autotuned tracks that refuse to show that they are made by imperfect humans who don’t always hit the exact note. At the end of the day, music appreciation is subjective and it’s silly to pretend there are objective standards for what we like about it.
"Vinyl is Vinyl and Digital is Digital". This sentence, by itself, is the best you mentioned to give a proper answer to the title of this great video. I have subscriptions to both Qobuz and Tidal. I love to play with Dac and Mqa and streamers but... I arrive to a point that I NEED to listen to Vinyl with one of my two turntables. It's REALLY a different way to listen to music. Not better or worse. Just different. That's why I usually play music through streamers, Sacd player and turntables.
Why do you have subscriptions to both, if you don't mind letting us know? This is the first I have heard of Qobuz, actually.
@@MichelleTackabery actually many of us have a subscription to Qobuz and Tidal. The database is not overlapping. The user interface is different and sometimes searches differ. It's also important to check which of the two platforms, for the album you are interested in, offers Hi Rez or standard CD quality. It's also nice to make comparisons between lossless Flac and Mqa (with the right Dac).
When I updated my audio gear I had 4 sources I wanted to maximize. The first was to listen to albums and immerse myself in its sound, the visual enjoyment of the album cover and the art design/photography. The 2nd was my cassette tape library which included mix tapes I made and ones gifted to me. The 3rd was my CD collection and the ease of selecting tracks I was in the mood to listen. The final was streaming my ripped music of Playlist. Tidal and Qobuz gave me the ability to discover new music. Something I used to use iTunes in the past. Some artists do not have vinyl versions so streaming it was my only choice. Each music source/format provides an experience depending on what I want. So many times technology is lost because of format wars. I am glad albums are back and that people are servicing vintage cassette decks. For me they each have a place in my system equally. Great video as always 👍.
I don't recall the convenience CDs being cited as the primary advantage. I recall reading about the clarity of the sound and wider dynamic range. And that confirmed my own impressions when I first heard CDs: the sound was just better, crystal clear and without the irritating surface noise that came from playing records. I have a turntable, which I bought five years ago or so, and a few records, which I play from time to time. For me it's all about nostalgia. I love looking at the turntable and watching it work. But I don't hear superior sound, despite the many people who claim that is the case.
I hear you, brother - I'm never going back to vinyl.
Yep, the original sound of my first CDs in the Spring of '85 were jaw dropping. Those CDs were an interesting mix, The Doors - The Doors, Pink Floyd - DSOTM and Prince - Purple Rain but each showcased the new technology in a different way. The original CD mastering was still wide open then, so the dynamics and S/N were incredible! When I heard The Doors "The End" on CD for the first time, it was such an awesome experience. I never gave up my records and I do have a issues with some digital recordings, especially the glassy top end or heavily compressed stuff but I appreciate well recorded music in any format. Most of the time, I don't think one is better than the other, but they definitely sound different and stir up different feelings. Just my opinion.
I remember CDs being 3 to 3 times the price of LPs and nowhere near the sound quality
I’m more digital now, I’m on the hunt of new music lately and getting everything on vinyl is becoming to expensive and after a while your interest in an album or band fades and you’re stuck with unplayed vinyl.
Of the many channels I have subscriptions for, yours is by far the one I look forward to the most. No politics or bad vibes, just fun, information and great music. Nice job on handling such a controversial topic...
I'm glad I've found this channel!
Interesting video Steve.
I’ve been doing similar test lately with various DAC’s and high end streamers.
As you say the numbers make streaming more accurate but I just can’t listen to it for more than an hour without feeling fatigued.
I can listen to vinyl for hours and it’s pure pleasure.
I’m a photographer and I feel the same about digital photos, it’s convenient, clinical and it’s what the masses want. When I take photos for pleasure I shoot film as to me it has depth and soul.
It’s exactly the same with music, there is just a warmth and depth to vinyl that I can’t feel with any digital format.
I get goosebumps when playing a lot of my records as they just sound so good, I’m yet to feel this way with digital.
Sisyphos would love this comment section! It’s a question of personal taste and the used gear in my opinion. Being an audiophile is such a highly subjective passion, the only thing no one can deny, vinyl has a certain magic to it because of the ritual that comes with the handling of the equipment and LP’s.
One man's magic is another man's inconvenience.
I remember when I traded my old Micro Seiki 77 turntable, for a Philips 104 CD. I could hear immediately the records was better. It was more organic and
coherent.
The time and improvement of digital streaming has really made it sound pretty good when you listen today though.
These days days, my "breakthrough" came when I heard Spotify over my Yamaha HS 7 with the HS 8 sub. When I got my KEF LS 50W with a B&W sub, I could suddenly hear the difference between Spotify and Tidal. Tidal was more dynamic, clear and with great resolution.
But records still have a place in my heart. Sometimes I miss my old Micro Seiki 77. 💚
Thanks for a great reminder Steve. 😘
Great video Steve, I think you may have hit the nail on the head without actually realising it. Something that I’ve noticed over the last couple of years is that electronic music regardless of how it was recorded tends to sound better in digital formats. This can be EDM, hip hop, industrial, experimental classical, electro pop (the whole gamut) not necessarily better than analogue, but certainly better than rock, folk, jazz or classical does in digital formats. Streaming is great, it’s the best to hear new (new to you) music, without having to invest in something you might not like. I use streaming for discovery and vinyl to collect and enjoy. Different tools for different jobs.
Steve, I think your idea of additive distortion via LP playback is brilliant!! As a musician it makes so much sense!! A guitar in the northern hemisphere is tuned to 440 because of physics. All acoustic instruments are tuned based on the natural environment. A turntable by default must obey natural laws of many types and thus it's sound is familiar to our collective unconscious. Digital music is not as susceptible to these first principles so it only makes sense that the sound would reflect such. It's kinda like the difference between an acoustic grand piano and a grand piano patch on an electronic keyboard......both sound very close to each other however the acoustic version will always have natural imperfections that add to it's musicality that digital will never be able to reproduce.
Hi Steve, I’ve not commented before, but really appreciate your videos. I found myself asking myself about this a few months ago, and tried recording various sources to hi-res flac. What I found interesting was to compare spectographs. I have a number of sources on LP from the late 1950’s through to now, including digitally mastered vinyl from the 1980’s, some Cr02 cassettes, that I have duplicates of on CD. I have a few DVD & blu ray audio disks. What I found was that on early vinyl, the frequency response drops off around 18 kHz, in much the same way later Cr02 cassettes do. The quality is not much poorer than CD, IMO,. From the mid-60’s the high frequency response increases, and drops off about 24kHz - even recording at 96kHz, there seems to be little benefit, as the signal drops off around 24kHz. However, I am sure that 24-bit gives a better sound than the 16-bit of CD. When I play more recent remastered sources on vinyl, the high frequency response appears to drop off about 22 kHz, which is about the same as the CD version. The point I am coming to myself is that recordings are best listened to on the medium they were intended for. Digital recording/masters sound best on a digital format, Analog recording/masters sound best on vinyl. Because most remasters are done digitally, for digital media, you get the worst of both worlds - something intended for vinyl on digital format, or something analog digitally reprocessed on vinyl. Objectively, it hard to justify, but subjectively, in my limited experience, that is how it appears to me. What has surprised me is that I can get a decent digital recording from some of my Cr02 cassettes - nearly as good as CD - the key is to have a decent Analog-to-Digital-converter in the loop. The advantage of recording vinyl to 48kHz 24-bit flac is it can then be stored on my NAS & a portable SSD to use when I’m away - and I can process the audio files to clean up any noise & crackles between tracks. What I find weird is that my own digital recordings sound nearly as good as the vinyl originals to me, and better than the CD versions.
Great summary. I’m a Tidal subscriber but my new turntable arrived today (a Pro-Ject Carbon Evo). I bought it only because I miss ‘owning’ my favorite music. No plans to buy everything I listen to in vinyl but rather to purchase only the albums that I truly love.
Streaming allows me to experiment with music I could never afford to try if I were having buy LP's of CD's, good video thanks.
Love this discussion. It's part of the fun of audio.
Hi Steve, I followed through on the sampler downloads you posted. Great to have these, as it gave me a chance to run the files through a spectrum analyser. What I found is that while most are 88.2 - 192 kHz samples, most frequency responses drop off completely after 24 kHz. So, there is no observable benefit to saving these above 48 kHz. In fact, some drop off at 22.5 kHz, which means that while the 24 bit-depth may be higher quality than 16-bit CD, there is no advantage in saving the files above 44.1 kHz. All that is happening is using up a huge amount of disk space & band width with nothing. What was even stranger is that some files drop off at about 18 kHz - which is about the same as for a Cr02 cassette! This is about the same as the upper limit of human hearing for most people (especially boomers like us). I am sure there is benefit in 24-bit over 16-bit, and this is what people notice in hi-res audio - but these files confirm my suspicion that there is little benefit in anything over 48kHz, which will allow for a frequency range up to 24 kHz.
I can provide a more detailed breakdown if you would like, but would need time to analyse & present the data more systematically.
Thanks for facilitating access to these files, which have confirmed my previous finding using the vinyl/96kHz version of Peter Gabriel Live.
What I have found with other hi-res media is that often the recording is limited by the original recording media. My Led Zeppelin live blu ray audio, while 96kHz, is very poor; as far as I can tell, this is because of the limited quality of live recording equipment 50 years ago. What you often end up with is a high resolution remastered reproduction of a low quality source - with the flaws of the original reproduced almost perfectly.
Analog, by its nature, adds distortion to any signal - the art of producing analog sound is in reproducing analog distorted in a way that sounds pleasing to the human ear. Tubes, for example, do not provide a “purer” sound, but a sound that is coloured in a way that appeals to the listener. The ideal setup for digital would be a digital to analog processor that provides enough distortion to trick the ear into thinking the source is analog. Theoretically, the more accurate the reproduction, less distorted, & closer to the digital source is, the less appealing it will sound. Because our brains are fuzzy analog devices, not digital.
In my opinion.
I love the ceremony of playing vinyl. Hunting for the record, then pulling it out of the sleeve and holding it in my hands. Preparing the turntable and cleaning the record, dimming the lights and then placing the needle on the record. It feels like I'm honoring the recording by being actively involved in caring for it and giving it a place of importance in my priorities. And then sometimes I just love the ease and simplicity of streaming. 🤷🏻
Reminds me of the men who shave with a safety razor and go with the ritual of soap lather, shave, repeat, repeat, styptic pencil, than a quick swipe with a 5 blade Gillette. Honor the blade.
Well said. It’s like warming up a vintage car engine before putting it into gear. With Spotify I try something and zap although the time.
Yes, it definitely has a 'sense of occasion' about it.
Great video, Steve. I would also like to see a similar comparison between the sound of CDs and their streaming equivalents
Funny coincidence. I am in the middle of Greg Milner’s excellent tome “Perfecting Sound Forever” I just finished a chapter on this very topic. Steve touches on it here as well. In the book there’s a quote from an engineer that if one took a blank lacquer, have no signal coming down, cut a series of silent grooves, put it on a turntable and dropped the needle, you would “get” a nice soft round pink noise. Everything heard on a record is heard through that filter of pink noise. The conclusion being “maybe what analog fans really want is “a record that sounds like a record.” Steve nicely concludes this subject that maybe there are no real winners, or an either or situation but rather what and how you like to listen to music.
Nice vid Stevo!! Love my Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ streaming Tidal via an iPhone 10 and running my 1990 CD player with a digital out. But, I prefer the sound from my LPs.
OMG, Julee Cruise - Floating into the Night... Absolutely Amazing!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU for the heads-up on this album. I loved the TV series, but the music more!
“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...” Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities
Thank you for a thoughtful and thought provoking presentation. This is certainly a good beginning. Your discussion of additive versus subtractive distortion hits the nail on the head.
I would love to see a blind or even double blind comparison test to avoid cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
As others have previously commented, the analog rig costs ten times the price of the digital-- wondering why you did not use your Denafrips DAC? I agree with the people who suggest that you should have used a dedicated streamer in your comparison. A possible cheaper alternative would be a desktop with an I2S output (Matrix) fed into your DAC.
After assembling a decent rock and jazz collection I switched over to CDs, and now have thousands that sound no better than a stream. A small percentage are unavailable on the sites, but most have been rendered essentially worthless. My smaller LP collection looks like the better investment. Now as a result of CZcams, I follow Ken Micallef and Michael Fremer down the vinyl rabbit hole, coming full circle.
It is inconceivable that better digital technologies will not surpass the inherent physical limitations of vinyl. Whither SACD? But as I hold a Tone Poet in my hand, I am more deeply connected to the music. There's the rub.
My turntable seldom sees the light of day. I don't know how vinyl afficianotoes manage to ignore the pops and clicks that make me crazy. I was overjoyed when CDs arrived. I sought out DDD recordings.
Clean your albums and handle them properly. I have albums 40 years old and they're dead quiet.
The SugarCube SC-1 ...
Great job, Steve. Each individual gets to figure out what sounds best to them. But there is a qualitative difference between digital and analog still. I have a large CD collection ( I used to have a large vinyl collection way back in the day) but I found I was listening to music less and less in recent times. I just wasn't enjoying music as much as before. My ears would get tired quickly. So, I finally bought a decent turntable and I'm enjoying the heck out of listening to vinyl, even older fairly beat-up vinyl. I just enjoy the vinyl sound more than the digital one. It sounds more "real" to me, for some reason. And I'm enjoying music again. So, that's MY story.
I still do lp and cd. Most of my lp sound better but my cd player is very good. I even do a cassette from time to time. I stream when I want to listen to something I dont have a physical copy of. I like physical media and I dont know what it would cost to get a good streamer. For me it just doesn't matter. My system sounds very good to me and I think that is most important.
some of my favorite recordings to listen to are vinyl rips from people with very nice systems. in a way, you kind of get the best of both worlds. the convenience of digital, and a taste of that person's phono cartridge, preamp, etc.
"I Put A Record On" by Gudrun Gut is absolutely fantastic. Streaming Tidal because I don't have the vinyl. My room is filled with sound coming from everywhere but my speakers! Totally surround by incredible sound. Thank you for mentioning this album. So very good.
Steve, what was the first speaker you listened to that sounded more like real life and less like a speaker?
This is not a serious comparison. Here in Sweden, that vinyl rig is roughly €30 000 and the dac €2000.
Defo would have been a more equal comparison using a good streamer and the Denefrips Terminator. I have heard that the Mytek is often too analytical for some. So you would expect to hear more of a difference.
Steve, what a brilliant video and thank you for that. I am with you on your points. Btw, what do you think about Amazon
Ultra HD compare to the Tidal or Qobuz?
What speakers did you use? And what speaker is in the background, if different? I'm thinking it looks like a Cornwall IV but I'm aware other speakers look very similar.
For my part, I have started listening on Tidal allot. I enjoy the selection, the immediate availability and the pricing. I've even taken to reading my stereo and music mags and popping over to Tidal to stream whatever the reviewer is writing about so i can hear it for myself and compare my reactions. Damn, if I could only do that with audio components!!! If I find something I really like, I'll see if it's available (and reasonably priced) on LP. If so, it'll be here in 3 days. I'm new to jazz and Tidal has allowed me to explore and refine my taste at almost no expense. Download and vinyl complement each other perfectly. Further, I can agree with Steve that some titles sound better to me on download but, mostly, LP's are my preference - though at $35 per copy, it's not always an impulse decision.
That basically what I do. Vinyl has become just the experience of listening to what it sounds like on vinyl and when I have time to sit down and enjoy. This is after I’ve listened on either tidal or cd. Hard to beat convenience of Tidal.
I absolutely loved your last upload and this has become my favourite audiophile discussion channel on YT. But honestly knowing where you come from there's no way to subtract subconscious bias without setting this up as a double blind test.
I'm also into photography and this debate echoes closely the film vs digital debate there although the photography community has embraced digital to a much greater extent than the audio. Ironically I remain dissatisfied with digital photography and am slightly biased towards film - even though I no longer own any film based equipment. My bias is innate because I was so into it in the day I had my own darkroom in the shed and everything. But in audio I am happy having switched to digital. I didn't do so lightly, I did a single blind test. I'd gone back to school after several years working, trying to get my postgrad. You do fall back into a college student life style to some extent. By this I mean you start listening to a lot more music. But all students are skint especially those paying tuition without a loan which necessitated being fairly frugal. So while my system was decent it was no patch on yours today. It just the best I could afford.
With my back to the system and having my girlfriend switch the inputs I compared the same CD and LP, both brand new. When we added up the ticks I made on my notepad they scored even. I got as many right as wrong and I liked vinyl equally to the CD. And this from a CD skeptic! I should mention I resisted CDs forever only finally switched in the late 90s literally because it really seemed like I had no choice. Vinyl seemed to be on its last gasp. (Its is wierd to me that people don't remember that. Practically nobody made turntables. Most recordings didn't even offer an LP version. Record stores disappeared and you would by 4 lps for a dollar at someone's dead uncle's estate clearance yard-sale - and then be given another one free).
Anyway from that day I wholesale shifted to digital and didn't look back. I don't miss the cracks and pops and the jumping up before the side ends or be punished by that loud grinding sound of your needle in the end zone.
But now I am facing a new puzzle with streaming. I stream hi res and then cd quality and sure I can tell the difference. Sometimes. Its like there is more light in the room and you see everything more starkly. And then I listen to the plain vanilla redbook cd and it is often better than the hi res stream. Its like the light is not brighter but is better quality somehow. And I can't explain it. I even use the same dac. Its get so that at times I just want to say this too confusing, I'mma stick with my CDs ; I'm too old to deal with this aggravation I want to say. But Steve you're slightly older than me and haven't lost a gram of your energy or enthusiasm. I mean maybe you have, maybe young Steve literally vibrated I don't know. But you seem not to have and I want to thank you for that too. For setting such a great example and being an inspiration.
Even though vinyl can in most cases (like CD) sound much better than streaming, having a mac mini doing the streaming process is not a fair way to go (to compare both formats), because it adds a lot of jitter into the process. The analogue side of the equation is in a clear advantage. You should have picket a dedicated streamer + DAC to have a fair comparison, Steve. :)
Fair review, Steve. I'll take vinyl every time .... when I can get it!
At 13:26+ you forgot to add the 45 RPM speed of record playback besides the 33.33 RPM, by the way, Steve. Anyhow, I listen to vinyl, CD, and music streaming in that order. Thumbs up, Steve. Another great, descriptive production.
Would it be the same with a DAC more comparable to the SME/VdH setup ? At least a DAC that would not be qualified as leaner, more "digital", than most ?
Just curious......why does Amazon HD tier not get any love? Most of us are prime members and it’s quite about cheaper than Tidal?
I love Amazon Ultra HD better than Tidal Qobuz. I had them both and find the Anazon Ultra HD better sounding. But still, I prefer the Analog sound of Vinyls.
I'm with you. I've been an Amazon HD subscriber since it came out. Great selection, including some obscure titles. As I'm getting back into vinyl it's also a good way to audition an album and see if it's something I want to own on vinyl.
I've found the user interface to be inferior, and its API does not play well with others. I switched to the more expensive Tidal for this reason.
I dropped Tidal for Amazon HD. It's probably not as "cool." Oh well.
Very cool show!
I heard vinyl recently and remember why all of a sudden I loved it during the cd craze. Before then, growing up in the 60s and 70s, I never really paid much attention to vinyl as it was the main source of music. Of course reel to reel was very cool but very few of us back then had reel to reel players.
I'd love to add vinyl to my system but truthfully I wouldn't know where to start.
Great topic! At home vinyl and CD's rule. At work, obviously, streaming music is pretty handy! I still prefer physical media. Thanks again, friend!
Great video. What would really interest me is a comparison between Tidal / Cobuz streaming on the one hand, and CDs on the other.
I'm 100% digital, I have 4500 sacds, 3100 dvda, 8000+ cds, and 900 magnet tapes in 1/8th and 1/2inch. They all are better than anything on vinyl record.
Sonus Faber Aida mains Bryson 4b Amp.
I have a Sonus Faber 7 floor... With the Aida as LR. And the menuettos as the surrounding, and 2 menuettos as the center (both amped independent). Four Macintosh for atmos overheads, Infiniti for the side speakers. Emotiva dual reference for most speakers. Bryson for the mains, and 3 center channel.
It's the difference that we give to post eq. The digital version given the same eq will always be better.
Why I use the emotiva RMC 1. Because it has per imput trims in good old UK board settings for bass, mid, and treble. And you can save them to the processor.
It's better than my lexicon processor in every way.
Yes I bought the entire DVDa catalog from Tribeca music when it went on sale
@@johnsmith1474 ohh no. I already have over 1PB of storage spinning. At the very least use exact audio copy.
That's a good warm-up for a proper comparison between the two (and why not three?) technologies at the same front-end equipment cost and through the same power amp and speakers..
Steve I absolutely love you man
I gravitate towards CD/Streaming for the convenience, lifestyle fit, and just ease of being able to listen to music whenever. I understand the beauty of vinyl. I do believe that music that was recorded at the time of vinyl was mastered to that medium properly and may not sound better there than in any other format. As we all know, audio is very subjective and dependent on so many factors - room, master, mix, equipment used for playback, recording gear, and our own personal bias (that can change from one tweet to the other!). I'm a music fan more than an audiophile and this is why I welcome digital/streaming. I had vinyl, then CDs, and now I stream. Whatever makes me enjoy my music from a good - but inexpensive - wireless speaker, to a high-end stereo system. I enjoy how music changes from one format to the other, from one set of speakers to the other. It's all part of the joy of music. More so, these days good gear and streaming are rather affordable so, as the Beatles said on Sgt. Peppers, "A splendid time is guaranteed for all."
Thank you for such a great video. I've just subscribed you have great kno9wledge and videos. What speakers are behind you?
Steve I’m watching your video and I agree with your observations. Full disclosure, I love vinyl, I love digital, but I’m a Hi Res snob. I subscribe to Tidal but only listen to MQA 24 bit minimum. Can you do this comparison again with Blue Note Tone Poet releases of old Jazz greats where frankly the vinyl and mastering are exceptional. It’s not a Digital vs. Digital streaming vs. Vinyl debate, but rather an experience of listening to the absolutely best of any format that the best of the format can bring. Amazing work Steve you inspire me every day!
So 20 grands' worth of turntable sounds better...you don't say
No need to spend 20 but 5 would get you there
@@jm_1214 Maybe. Maybe not.
Tech 1200 = better than all the digital crap out there
@@manFromPeterborough Yeah, right. The same POS that DJ's use. For them it's not a POS because it does what they need it to do - not because of sound quality. Those things have so much low frequency rumble it's not even funny.
Also posted on Patreon page- Steve, sincerity in your videos is evident and I appreciate that. At times you seemed conflicted in this one which I certainly understand. I was in both the analog and digital eco systems until about two years ago when I made the decision to go totally digital. I have one main system that serves duty for music and movies and in order to maximize my budget I didn't feel I could do both well. As you mentioned convenience is a big factor for me; I can explore tons of artist and genres with merely a click and no additional cost. Plus, I feel those folks who aren't open to trying new things miss out. Purists may say 3D or Atmos for music is a terrible thing, or MQA for that matter, but if you never give it a listen how do you really know?
I have a request. For us rebels who live purely in the digital domain, would you consider doing a video comparing the three main hi-res streaming services? For instance, I would enjoy hearing your input on MQA vs. non-MQA versions of the same tracks. I use an Audiolab 6000N Play via Kimber PBJ analog interconnects (just because I always to own a set) to a Denon X4700 in preamp mode with a Halo A52+ powering LSiM 707 series Polks so I have no MQA capability currently. In the past I used Tidal and a Node 2i but was lured away by the pricing for Amazon (U)HD as a Prime member. I liked the MQA sound and has less dropouts presumably because of the reduced bandwidth of the MQA technology.
I'd be super curious what your trained ears hear via Qobuz and Amazon versus Tidal MQA. Another factor for me specifically is I'd have to use the internal DAC in say a Node to unpack MQA files and pass them to my system, the Node DAC appears inferior to my Audiolab, but I digress. You have capability I do not in using the same streaming device/DAC to playback both scenarios which is extremely valuable. Perhaps you’ll indulge my request and if others are interested in this comparo back me up! Thanks.
Hey there,
I'd like to know if there are any audiophile solutions for a van.
I don't have the room for all the crazy big stuff but still I'd like to listen to some high quality audio.
Also my budget is fairly low.
I'd like not to spend more than 1000€...
Currently I'm using some Logitech speakers with a subwoover for 100€ and some Sony and bose headphones so anything is going to be an upgrade I guess...
Curious if you have any suggestions for a possible solution.
Sure I could just get some proper headphones but I'd like to know if you have any ideas for speakers etc. aswell.
Hit me with all you got please!
The best reproduced music I've ever heard, the most palpably, compellingly real, either in my own systems or the best systems I've listened to that aren't mine, has been on vinyl. Especially, the direct to disk (Sheffield Labs) and best quality pressings/remasters (like Mobility Fidelity, Nautilus, etc.). Digital has gotten SO good even with the last few years, and even more convenient. I feel that turntables are lovely, elegant precision devices, but they are fiddly, fragile things. They have to be set up and dialed in very carefully, and evening using the turntable and vinyl recordings has to be done with care.
Thanks for the explanation on a very subjective and difficult topic. Well put and agree with your summation.
based on the huge price discrepancy of the equipment being used, ie: the mega cost of the turntable vs. the rather modest cost of the digital streamer used, I don't find this comparison to be on equal footing.
the question occurs ,how high up the analogue scale must I sink to achieve this separation ,and ,or,is it possible to bend digital through some magnets or rice or cardboard in the bookshelves to elevate it to be as enjoyable?
I recently started appreciating both vinyl and cd more... CD's by upgrading my cd player to a Marantz cd6000 ki , and vinyl by wet cleaning vinyl.. all media can be incredible if you ask me, enjoy the music 🥰
I absolutely love Qobuz... and Vinyl.
Analog I still like playing over streaming, I get my exercise and I can hold the album and read it and also the art work is awesome.
Hello Steve, greetings from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I have been following you for a few months and I like your signature to explain. Sometimes I have to go to my wife to translate things for me. I do not know if your videos have the option of subtitles in Spanish, it does not allow me. I wanted to ask you for an opinion if possible. If you have a CD player like a Marantz CD6006 and a good analog stereo amplifier, what connection would you use, the analog direct or would you output the CD through SPDIF to a good DAC and from the DAC would you output analog to the amplifier? From already thank you very much.
Are the vinyl records being produced and sold now of good quality? Given all the digital mixing done while recording, do new records sound differently from streaming? I would be interested in hearing your take on some albums produced recently.
LIke the last one you reviewed...that comparison was really interesting.
Steve, which Vinyl version of Soul Samba were you comparing? 45RPM analogue productions?
Hi Steve, I really like your show. Wasn’t this recent Ike Quebec reissue cut from files ? I don’t believe it’s part of Blue Note recent analog series. You might need an analog sourced album to compare it to the qobuz version, right ? What about 80’s DMM records or electro records that use analog synths ? As you said, they are as many questions as configurations. Regards from Paris
Thank you again Steve for this subject matter.Im 67 years of age, a baby boomet.So I'm an Analog guy first and foremost.Yes i have a huge cd collection and it has gotten better over the years as well as to what you play it on..Im not big on streaming but to each his own..Im ol d school snd Analogy souds warmer , true.I often wonder what will happen in the future of vinyl music.Will it disappear, too costly the equipment..the audience will prefer convientence over old technology?Maybe the new wave will be of audio plus holographic terns.Who knows.Just ask Steve G.Stay tuned.
Someone may be able to help me. Last year I did a trial of Tidal and liked the music but hated the interface. My daughter gives me one of her Spotify family sign in accounts. I like the interface but of course Spotify is not CD quality even at its best setting.
Did Tidal's interface get a recent update? How is the Qobuz interface compared to Spotify and Amazon Music?
There is also a Deezer trial promo that is being promoted this month. There are so many choices and I am considering a trial of both Deezer and Qobuz. Off topic a bit but I am doing vinyl and streaming and Spotify doesn't cut it on my better systems.
I have only had Tidal since the beginning of this year, but I haven't noticed any major GUI changes.
I got back into vinyl about 5 years ago in my 60’s-started with an entry level Music Hall table and moved up to a VPI Scout after a year so of enjoying the vinyl experience. Prior to that I started listening to CD’s ripped to computer and through a DAC and also have used Qobuz, Tidal, and Amazon HD. I really don’t critically listen to the streaming in most cases because often I’m listening while cooking or other activities around he house. I also use streaming for music discovery and in making decisions on what titles to buy in vinyl. My original CD’s sound better than the CD rips and streaming in most cases but convenience wins out in the digital experience for me. I honestly prefer vinyl through my Scout even though bass is sometimes not as prominent and tight. There’s something about vinyl that sounds more realistic to me in most cases and particularly listening to jazz recorded live in a club. But I’m glad to have all these formats and enjoy them all.
I think that is about the most objective analysis of a very subjective issue I have ever heard. I am an older guy who is finding time in life now to enjoy some of the things I did as a younger person and music is one of them. Thanks for doing this one.
So Steve, do you think hardware unfolded MQA makes digital sound more "analogue" than straight PCM supplied by Qobuz / Amazon / Deezer ?
A much more concise way to ask the same question I posted in a paragraph just now, thank you. :)
Hey, Steve. I'm an old-school vinyl guy thru and thru. My very first LP was Meet The Beatles in 1964. These days I find it a PIA to keep turntables up and running... for that reason, my primary listening lately consists of about 1400 FLAC files. Most are 16b/24k to 24b/96k. With my old ears, it's more about the convenience than the subtle nuisances.
Good topic Steve from Brooklyn.
I have always felt Streaming and CD remakes and remastering of older recordings, like you said in your opening statement started as analog. Newer recordings are often digital based. Which in theory should maintain all its transient speed, impact, extension and dynamic range?? Unfortunately, do to the "Loudness Wars" all the benefit of the digital format is lost through compression!!
That would include LPs starting from Digital of most of today's modern recordings are.
The closest format to the original masters, which is often magnetic tape would be Reel to Reel, or Real to Reel as I like to express.
Direct Digital recordings or Direct to Vinyl pressings would possibly be the best capture? However, not to many current recording artist are doing "direct" anything. There's often miles of electronics and wiring between the original session and our ears!
That being said, the type of music one listens to and enjoys is probably more affected by format! Acoustic music like Jazz or Chamber Music capture would do better keeping it as close as possible in the analog realm. As for Electronic music like EDM and Rock would more likely benefit from Digital mediums. But, that's again totally subjective!
The Audiophile challenge could be in order to experience the best from recordings, Audiophiles would appreciate two separate playback systems! One for "Acoustic Music", the other for "Electronic Music" listening? It's getting complicated! Well, at least until the "Loudness War" ends!
This will be a different conversation in 10 years. A mastering engineer at a MAJOR studio told me lots of the bad digital mastering from the 90s and 00s is being redone. Even the new Marley half/speed pressings have a digital step. I think the future of digital is bright, but it’s not there yet.
Shades are being ordered.
Yea for example check out the new Pearl Jam MTV unplugged remaster. It has insane quality in sound. Best album IMO now.
I've always wondered if the analog source master tape playing on reel-to-reel is closer to the digital? I think the vinyl has more "life" due to stuff physically moving in the cartridge.
It's funny to hear you view on electronic music, were i find electronic music to sound overall better on a turntable than in digital, and i hear a lot of electronic music and had for decades. But it was first when i upgraded my analog system by miles, i began to experience something new with electronic music reproduction, so when i bought my Rega P8/Apheta II combo, running through my Lehmann Black Cube SE II ref. Phono Stage, i really began to notice how good electronic music can sound on a turntable/record. It's much fatter, quicker in some response, and not very ear fatigue to me. So i'm guessing i'm more into digital/electronic through an analog set-up. As for streaming digital, i haven't come around that yet, as i'm still enjoying my +2500 CD's, playing through my Linn Ikemi HDCD player (from the old days), and it still sounds amazing too me. But i have thought of the little well known and well reviewed Chord/Quetest DAC, which i'm sure would for fill my dreams of digital music reproduction. Cheers from Denmark
I love Steve’s content.
Wait a minute, so you’re comparing the sound quality of an SME analogue kit + The Grail, to a Brooklyn DAC + MacMini? Really?!?!
Exactly, you stole the words straight out of my mouth!
"Bits are bits" and "perfect sound forever," remember.
@@SilverAudiophile Same here.
I think the real or more appropriate question should be...What recordings are mixed, recorded and produced the best...analogue or digital. As I think both mediums would or could be equal...but only if the same skill and care and attention was done at the production stage!
Couldn't agree more. I use Tidal to discover music, mostly playing in the background as I do other things. What I really enjoy I invest and buy on vinyl (best pressing I can afford), and that is then what I use for more active listening. I don't necessarily enjoy vinyl more for how it sounds, but I just enjoy listening that way more. But if I had to live forever after with only Tidal as a source, I'd be totally fine with that. It's a really great idea and service, which I enjoy tremendously. No winners or losers, only what we enjoy the most is best.
Both for me Steve... love the snow...
1:03 - 'Convenience trumps quality most of the time.' So true and right to the point! :-)