Why I Didn't Finish My MFE Degree
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- Dedicating oneself to a field of study can be difficult especially when a program doesn't meet your educational and career needs. Watch to find out why I didn't finish my financial engineering masters degree.
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I really don't think students from NYU, CMU and Baruch don't know who Black and Derman are. I think most students from these programs are pretty strong quantitatively and have basic concept of what Quant is, and most of them are landing jobs in IBs and HFs. Maybe it is just my own observation.
L Levine you'd be surprised. I've worked/known students from CMU, Baruch, University of Chicago, and a few other programs. They all know what the Black Scholes model is, they just don't eat sleep and breath financial engineering and its history so connecting the dots between the model and the people doesn't happen.
@@DimitriBianco don’t you think your metric for measuring their interest in FE is a little biased based on your own personal interest in mathematical history? Not everyone geeks out in that way. For example, some of the best poker players in the world probably didn’t read the autobiography of Doyle Brunson or other poker trailblazers. They don’t care to worship these humans they’re too busy knee deep in the poker quant models and trying to build on the shoulders of these giants to advance the field.
Like Lebron James might not know Michael Jordan’s birthday and every stat on him for every season, but he’s still Lebron James while some MJ fan in a wheelchair probably has every MJ post game interview memorized, but he’s not going to go pro any time soon.
100% agree with you. The financial university exhausted you to be sure that your passion disappears and keep only the best ''remember by heart'' people. I did the ''remember by heart'' in my undergraduate and, later, it took me couple of books to realize what I just learned and what is the real use of it... In school you focus so much on the exam that you forgot why you're there.
Hey man! I’m an actuarial undergrad and I’m interested in becoming more acquainted with the financial engneering field. Do you have any specific titles you can recommend to make me more confident this is the right career path? Some of these videos go over my head but I’m looking to learn more! :) thanks!
To be honest I agree with the point that you are making that most of the programs are cramping way too many subjects and assignments into the 1-1&1/2 year time frame. It's just the human greed at display at it's best. But I have reservation about the opinion that you need to know about Black, Scholes or Derman to be a good financial engineer. If you learn the skills required to be a good financial engineer with all honesty and hard work you will eventually get there, which is also true with other spheres of life as well. It took me 15 years to realize my dream to get into derivative pricing world (model validation), because I wanted to be in that area. Since I didn't had a phd the path was a bit hard for me.
Do a video on MS Applied Econ. I couldn't find (not even one) a vlog on it.
I'll add it to my list of videos to make.
Took a shot every time you said "Financial Engineering". Drunk at 0:42
Hey Dimitri, I see where you're coming from, but the topic of financial engineering is not very well known. It's still relatively new compared to other disciplines and I'm sure it will pick up like data science did, but until then, there's limited information on it for people to understand the uses as well as appreciating the innovations it brings and the history of it. From your review though, it sounds like there weren't a lot of people who work in finance or were interested in the field at your school and that sucks. I honestly don't see a problem with wanting to make money as I want to do that as well, but I also love learning about finance and math (more so with stat and econometrics rather than calculus). I work in structured finance and I've been preparing for a financial engineering program for the past year by taking math prereq courses so I'm looking forward to this field. Thanks for your insight on your MFE experience
Sadly the financial engineering boom already came and went around 2007-2008. Financial engineering while a young study (started in 1973) is much older than data science (started in 2001). Many of the derivative markets have dried up which has resulted in a lower demand for financial engineers (see the article below). In my opinion financial engineering will end up with a few great graduate programs who feed the derivatives markets while the other average programs will close or produce students who end up doing other work.
www.quantnet.com/threads/2015-quant-job-market-cds-is-dead-booming-data-analytics.20245/
Dimitri Bianco oh I don't disagree regarding the demand for such jobs, but I see the field as being heavily practical overall due to the skills obtained from data analytics, programming, math, and finance. Granted, I believe there's little opportunities to become a financial engineer, I also see the opportunities outside of that realm by going into risk management, IT developing side as mentioned in ur link, and more across various fields. Even if I don't become a financial engineer, I'd like to use the skills in say IT for a finance firm or work for a fintech company while applying the skills learned for my own personal investment strategies. If I can pull it off, I'd like to achieve the CFA which together, would still cost about half of an MBA according to schools Ive looked at and I think fits better for me. Thanks again for your insight!
Excuses excuses excuses, applied economics is weak
Hey Dimitri I really love this video! I myself am a huge fan of studying for a course only if you're interested in it.
I just wanted to ask you, would you say your applied economics masters gave you an edge into applying for risk positions compared to a MFE?
99% of my class had no idea about the course. They just had a maths background so went into it hoping to make money. Fact is, most will need a PhD and most are for quant. Only decent jobs are Equity derivatives structuring that many did not need a masters to do.
People might not know what a hedge fund is, but they know they are willing to spend $70K+ on a graduate degree to work at one on the basis of nothing but comments made by strangers an internet forum; universities are well aware of this. (You see this a lot in online discussions, where programs and books are discussed, but hardly ever the actual work realities.) Administrators get tired of students who think they already know everything and eventually start to typecast them as such.
Sounds like somebody just couldn't make it
Marcus Yakira yes, especially given that he transferred to Applied Economics, and not something more quantitative like applied math.
Great video Dimitri. I agree with your points regarding the problem with schools accepting students who are not passionate about the field.
May I have your recommendation?
I have recently graduated with a bachelor in Business Finance degree (1st class in UK from an average-ranked uni) and what I got to know is that I certainly don't want to touch anything related to 'business', because I find it useless for me. I have recently started developing myself in Python with the accelerated MiT course, and hence, I wish to develop my computational thinking and math. I consider to start this or another similar course like, perhaps, Applied Economics or idk... Something that can unleash my math potential. I am not a genius, I'd rather say an average mathematician, but with a great attitude to study. And now.. the main question.
What should I have or how to check if I would like Financial Engineering before I enroll on it (from a personal point - what should I have to keep up)?
I plan to spend the period, from this summer to at least spring, to develop myself through online courses - what is worth to take? Programming, pure math or data science for this field?
PS. I like your videos and they open many not widely told cases. Thanks!
I would take a look at two other CZcamsrs for a different angle and more on the technical side. I also highly recommend Carmon's book, "Statistical Analysis of Financial Data in R." The book will cover the statistics and some programming together.
amzn.to/2UisOsp
Financial Engineering:
czcams.com/users/NathanWhitehead
More stats:
czcams.com/users/SpartacanUsuals
How many people who get english degrees end up going into "English"? How many people who get history degrees end up going into "History"?
5:30 It is this way because Universities are businesses at heart and to ensure students keep coming back they have to make sure a certain % pass and a certain % fail (normally 20% fail rate), if that number is say around 30-40%, the university starts to ask questions to the unit chair/coordinator. Since a lot of students only do their degrees because it will pay well or because their parents told them to (a lot of international students are like this) the unit chair has the make the exam easy, otherwise students will complain that it was too hard. So essentially undergraduate degrees are an absolute cake-walk where you can go through the entire degree and not know a single thing (I got through my Bachelor of Accounting utilising knowledge from High school and just wrote-learning information from practice exam papers 2 days before the exam).
It's really quite depressing and will ultimately make the world less intelligent. I hate to say it too but a lot of students are that unconfident in their abilities that they cheat by paying other people to do their assignments for them. It kind of makes you wonder what they do with all their free time. They really only have to study for 2 days out of the entire semester, and even then, with the easy exam, they will still only score between 50-70. They didn't learn anything.
From,
A University Lecturer in Australia
Had you come to Berkeley, we would have cared. Sad you did not experience a wonderful journey. Our students love FE. Our students know why they are in the MFE... and please... our students know Derman, and Black-Scholes...etc....BEFORE they come to Berkeley
Are you the REAL Linda Kreitzman ??
@@kiranmenon3044 Yes, I am. Reach out if you wish. Want to hear your story, and tell you why FE is a great field. not for everyone, and without it, you can still be successful and happy but there is so much you can do with FE. Of course, I am biased, I have helped students for 20 years.....
@@lindakreitzman5227 I do not know if you are the real Linda Kreitzman...I mean a professional of her stature just talking to a random kid on yt. I do not know how you could help me but i have sent you an email.
If you are the real Linda Kreitzman then you would respond to that email, because I'm really interested in pursuing an MFE
It seems to me you were just a poor student in a poor program
Hello! Is Baruch considered one of the top programs?
문재현 Yes, they are one of the best.
www.quantnet.com/mfe-programs-rankings/
Hi, I'm new to this channel. I just have a few questions regarding MFE program. I'm currently pursuing my 5th year of Integrated Masters in Data Science. I have a CGPA of around 3.2/4 (converted to 4 point scale in US, since im from India). I have done a 6 month research internship too. Is it possible for me to get into Baruch college for MFE? Any other colleges you recommend. Anybody can answer, Thanks in advance!
Thanks for being a part of the channel!
I haven't looked at Baruch's requirements in a while however they usually require a college course in C++. I would look at their website for the list of requirements for an application.
My favorite programs are listed here:
www.fancyquantnation.com/quant-finance-list
@@DimitriBianco thanks for the quick response. Also, I'll make sure that i really know about financial engineering before getting into it. Thanks :)
at claremont university i was selected for admission but university has recommended me calculus 1,2 3 .in financial engineering because my background is not quant and im weak in quant. what do u say about claremont university.
Claremont is good but it's really expensive.
I would say MFR just gives you a good foundation. You need to continue to develop on the job in all the core quant subjects ( maths, stats, programming etc.), especially programming if you have not touched it in depth before, as is the case of many MFE students who typically have good maths background but relatively weaker programming background. At least, that has been my case.
Alex Yang agree 100%!
Can you recomend books that you read... Im also a fe student in sri lanka...
How about Financial Engineering in Switzerland ? Do you think EPFL or ETH in Switzerland could get me into a bank in NYC. The financial engineering courses At MIT NYU are too expensive.
For Switzerland, I have no idea however, if you can get a job in Switzerland at a big bank then you can transfer to NYC fairly easily.
Banks require banking experience or graduation from an IVY league school in the US.
MScFE is a pretty tough program but very rewarding. I am about to finish my MSCFE from Worldquant University. I want to encourage everyone who wants to be a financial engineer to give it a try. But the ride is pretty rough if you don't have a solid background in calculus. Benefits of doing financial engineering program can not be overemphasized. It is similar to studying other complex programs like quantum computing, robotics, AI, chemical engineering. These are tough programs but if you stick around and finish the benefits are huge. Am very surprised to hear that students from IVY league don't know Fisher Black yet for us we Black-Scholes model is so common in analysis. Almost an entire course unit is devoted to BS-model, derivative pricing, interest modeling. Am surprised that other quant students don't know Fisher Black. Must be a joke
did you later complete the MScFE?
@@mukisagershom3540 Not yet. Am in the later of the second half. Am finalizing. Probably you can say am 80-85% finished with the program
I studied Applied Mathematics 10 years ago... Would you recommend me to enroll to the MSCFE from Worldquant University?
Thank you.
@@LilithX Hello Daisy. Sure I would recommend you to do so. The program is fully free. However, note that it is not yet accredited. Accreditation is underway currently. So if you are aware of this fact but still want to enroll please do so. Secondly, you need to be prepared to dedicate a substantial amount of time in order to complete the program. Currently, this means 2 full years nonstop. We have 10 modules and each module takes seven weeks to complete. The modules are hierarchical in that you must pass Module 1 to enroll in Module 2 and so on. Each module has several assignments and deadlines to meet within those seven weeks, talking of more than 10 deliverables. So it needs a lot of effort to put in. But many students finish and graduate. So if you interested please apply and enroll. Thanks
@@nicholasmunu3114 Thank you so much!
Why did you switch to applied econ instead of statistics, or instead of transferring to a different school? -- also Applied Econ bro :)
The reason I chose the applied econ program was because it had flexibility which allowed me to continue to take financial engineering courses while adding other masters level courses (math). The Michigan financial engineering program only allowed PhD courses for electives which was a draw-back for me given my finance background. If I would have transferred to statistics or computer science I would have not been allowed to take the financial engineering courses. As for why I stayed at Michigan, well the university as a whole is one of the top ranked in the world, the applied economics program was ranked 2nd in the US, and the school alumni and reputation make getting a job much easier. As for the concept of applied economics...yes, I cringe as well. I actually love economics as a whole but feel the study has taken a wrong turn many years ago.
Hey Dimitri, I'm a finance undergrad and I have to decide whether I want to do a Masters (or MSc). The university in my city (HEC Montreal) offers financial engineering, finance, and applied financial economics. The director of financial engineering said that it is the hardest, followed by finance, and the applied financial economics is the easiest. Would you say that this is true? Most of my interest in financial engineering was that I'm interested in algorithmic trading, but looks like you don't really need it for that.
Joe C my advice it to look at algo trading jobs online. Most algo traders have masters in financial engineering or PhDs. The reason is they are required to do advanced mathematics and computer programming. Some large algo firms break the jobs up so there are traders, programmers, and quant research. Financial engineering is light years ahead of finance in difficulty. I usually don't recommend getting a financial engineering masters if you have a finance undergrad.
If u want to get into algo trading ur going to need to learn how to model a portfolio of derivatives and scenarios across time. Probabilities. Need to learn the black and Scholes models, learn how to price derivatives and measure and visualize risk metrics. Partial and ordinary differentials, probability calculus, statistics,the whole 9 yards. With a degree in FE you can become a portfolio manager or trader for any bank or hedge fund. You can become rich beyond your wildest dreams if you learn to master the markets.
Hi Dimitri. I am currently a math major and also doing the Cert in Quant Finance that Paul Wilmott runs. I also plan to get a masters in applied math. Is this enough to be considered a quant.
Cody Silvers that's a great start and should be enough to get a quant job. You'll also need to network with people to make getting the first job easier.
What r ur views on Quant finance program at Rensselaer Polytechnic
To start off with it depends on what your goal is. If you want to be very quantitative it's an okay school but not great. I don't know specifics about the school however typically financial engineering programs through business schools aren't very quantitative compare to engineering based quant programs. Also, the program is 1 year in length which means you'll learn a lot less compare to a 1 1/2 to 2 year program. I actually made a video linked below on this topic for you. If this the only program you get accepted to and you really want to work in quant finance than I would say it is worth the time and money to get a degree from here however if you have other options you should really consider what your end goal is.
czcams.com/video/0MW7-nW7C7E/video.html
I read a review of the MFE online and realized it was written by you lol. You really make it sound like the crappiest thing ever. I can't believe how expensive it is. I guess 60 credits? BTW I hear they shut it down?
doctorhonda111 yes the program closed due to some of the reasons I mentioned in my review. I believe it's 18 classes and then summer boot camp. I'm actually working with another program on fixing many of the issues mfe programs can have in general. There is a huge divide between programs and the industry. Those with good networks are usually the best because they can better place candidates.
Dimitri Bianco i was worried about the MFA program in rutgers for the same reason. The mba programs have an established Network. If im all about getting a job i feel the mba will be better networking and business relationships but its twice the cost.
doctorhonda111 yeah that's the struggle. I don't think mbas add value but the networking and job placement can make a huge different in placement and salary.
Hey Dimitri, what do you think of FRM instead of a masters?
Joey Cognata the FRM is very light in content. It's had a big picture view and lacks analytics. A masters is usually a minimum in quant finance where most of my colleagues have PhDs. No designation is comparable to a degree. They only help show you are involved in your field.
@@DimitriBianco Are most of their PhD's finance related?
Getting into MFE by faking background has consequences:) MFE is suited to those with strong (really strong) math background.
Need help. I did mba in finance from Pakistan now want to apply for MS finance or business analytics of financial engineering or any other field regarding business.what r other options.I want to apply in US.I HAVE ALSO GOT MAIL FROM TEMPLE UNIVERSITY ABOUT ADMISSION IN RISK MANAGEMENT
It really depends on your end goal. What type of career do you want and what is most important for you?
Hey Dimitri do you think you would of completed your program if it was part time?
It's possible I would have finished it. It took me a semester of math classes to really catch up to where I needed to be. I did end up taking more financial engineering classes during my applied econ degree as electives. I feel it's better to really understand everything you are learning than just finishing a degree program which is why I switched.
Hi, do you think MSFE from worldquant university is worth it?
Also, do you think with MS.c Financial Engineering, one still needs a professional certification in FRM and ERP from GARP?
Between FRM and MFE, which has an edge over the other?
olufemi bankole I've never heard of worldquant however from looking at their website I would say it's far from the rigor of a well known university. As for the FRM vs the MFE. A solid financial engineering degree is very difficult to obtain and the academic level is more in line with a PhD than a masters degree which is why many bank will only hire mfe and PhDs. The FRM is basically just a sign that you are interested in risk management and are involved in your career. It is a very high level overview and I would not consider it a quant designating.
olufemi bankole bro, did you start with Worldquant? If yes, what do you think of it?
@@Raynwoke what was then concluded here. I also have the same question on the Msc FE by Worldquant
@@febbykazembe62 I'm enrolled at the moment. So far, it's been eye-opening, but it is challenging and heavily based on Mathematical concepts. In my opinion, they don't flesh out the concepts well enough, but that may be cos I don't come from a Mathematical background, so I usually have to go the extra mile to learn.
@@Raynwoke What would you recommend (preparatory courses to brush up) for someone with just a financial background and to take on the initial proficiency test
Dimitri, could you recommend a good math prep course, which will alow me to complete all of the math pre-requisites efficiently in order to be considered for an MFE program. I have a BS in non-quant field, however most of my electives come from Computer science courses. I also have ~10 years of combined experience in market/business analytics and asset valuation. Thank you!
I don't know of any official courses that would improve your application chances to a financial engineering program but there are a few things that can help you knowledge wise. If you are looking to improve your math skills in preparation for a financial engineering program I would actually recommend a book and website for studying.
The book linked below covers many of the basic areas required to really dive into the math behind financial engineering. I wish I knew about this book before grad school but I didn't discover it until after I graduated. I would also recommend Patrick JMT (he's on CZcams and has a website linked below) because he breaks down a lot of math concepts into understandable pieces and has practice problems that you can do by pausing his videos. I found his videos to be very helpful while in grad school as he could explain what my teachers and classmates could not.
A Primer For The Mathematics Of Financial Engineering:
amzn.to/2MTVJyN (affiliate link)
Patrick JMT:
czcams.com/users/patrickJMT
patrickjmt.com/
Dimitri Bianco Thanks a lot for your reply and advice, I really appreciate it. Bookmarked the youtube channel and going to look up the book.
hi! I'm a confused between master's in finance and master's in FE. I am not really strong in mathematics so I'm thinking about Ms in finance. is masters in finance a good option?
Finance and Financial Engineering are very different in skills and potential jobs.
Finance degrees will end up going to do corporate finance, investment banking, and traditional investing which is based on financial theory. Finance requires very minimal math and is mainly theory based (think time value of money). MSF programs are typically business students.
Financial Engineers end up creating financial derivative products, conducting risk management, and quant trading such as algorithmic trading and statistical arbitrage. FE requires advanced math, stats, and computer science. Those who typically do best in MFE programs have engineering, physics, or math undergraduate degrees.
I'm also confused about Ms in finance or financial engineering or shall I go for business analytics.I did mba finance from Pakistan
Let's be clear, the asset price model wasn't invented by Black-Scholes. It was invented by Edward Tharp and Louis Bachelier, They're the geniuses.
Louis only came up with pricing for a barrier option because Brownian Motion wouldn't be invented until 5 years later. The closed form solution for European options was discovered by Black and Scholes using traditional finance (CAPM). Merton added clearer mathematical proof as well. Louis did provide a guide however he needed Einstein's help.
I am from India , I m doing free course msfe from worldquant. How will this help me
I have a video coming out in a few weeks on WQU. To summarize the video, the WQU degree depends on what you want to do and where you want to work. If you want to work in the US or Europe, it won't be of much help due to the high number of candidates competing with you that have name brand degrees. If you want to work in another country where there aren't a lot of financial engineering programs then this could be an option.
@@DimitriBianco thanks buddy
Hello joshi, I'm about to complete my undergrad, I think you've completed your mscfe, So i want to ask that this designation has helped you in your career till now?. I'm aspiring to be a Quant & planning to step in the mscfe program.
I almost did applied economics, but went with a Masters in Applied Statistics.
I think this a masters in statistics is my back up if I am not good enough on paper to do an MFE at a worthwhile school.
Would you say the masters in statistics helped you become a quant?
@@4seth I am not a quant, so I can't really say. I can say that my MAS degree helped me become a data scientist. I do have a CS undergraduate degree as well. My goal was never to become a quant, but a data analyst or data scientist, and the degree helped with that. Hoped this helped.
I'm a big fan of statistics degrees and some of my colleagues in quant finance have Masters and PhDs in statistics. The classes that were the most helpful for me were statistics classes as well.
I’m in MSFE program and I know who’s Fisher Black and I’m not in an Ivy School 😬😬
Anyone who does any Finance unit at ANY level of university should know who Fischer Black is.
Felt like crap treated like crap i was crap 😕 😪
I know you touched upon the fact that many of the top students don't know basic (essential) facts and that the professors didn't care about you as a student, etc... Do you still think an MFE degree would be worth it in-spite of all the negatives that you mentioned?
I do still think they are worth it for some students, especially those who are interested in engineering financial products. Over the years though I have realized there are other degrees that can prepare you for a variety of areas of quantitative finance. I'm a big fan of statistics Masters and PhDs for quantitative risk management as the majority of my job in risk is building and analyzing statistical models.
Dimitri .. I'm taking a class an online FInancial Engineering class and was wondering if you could help me. Perhaps a private lesson or two. Please let me know. Thanks
why do you judge other students' passion toward money is inferior than your passion toward Fin.Eng.? you are too biased. For example: Anyone can be the best nba player even without knowing who invented the game of basketball.
Because if you were in finance for the money you would get an MBA not a quant degree.
I have a mfe from a top 3 school. It’s useless.
Hi Dimitri, can you write a list of the authors you mentioned? I really wanna to read their works.
Fischer Black, Emanuel Derman, Paul Wilmott, and Paul Samuelson. I would also recommend Jim Gatheral.
Bro why the fuck people go to college. To make MONEY. This is exactly the point of the school, it's not to know some people that are good in their fields.
Honestly, my reaction is that I'm horrified. I have traded options since 2011, and knowing there are things like Citadel, that are touted to bring more liquidity to the market, yet, front run the trades wanted, just disgusts me. People need to stop moving away from being people. The thinking paradigm of gaining advantage over your fellow man is flawed in the first place. Maybe one day, we will all realize that being human is enough, and dependence on computers to run things faster, more efficiently, and with great accuracy is truly self defeating, when all is said and done. Heres to open cry in the market! Its more fun!
You say "The thinking paradigm of gaining advantage over your fellow man is flawed in the first place." Yet you also say you've traded options for 8 years, which is a zero-sum game wherein you only profit by taking money from somebody else. Seems a little hypocritical.
lol what!? he didn't know Black? yikes, I'm not even in that field and I know who that is. He's just a famous rapper guys, nevermind
I don't need a piece a paper to make money. My mind and thought on how the world functions is enough to make money.