Fadal CNC Mill (VMC-10) Rebuild - The Saga Continues!
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- Earlier this year I did a full rebuild of my 1994 Fadal VMC-10, and I filmed the process! My previous 'rebuild' of this machine was more about replacing worn out bits and pieces and a lot of 'remedial maintenance'.
The rebuild was done because I am starting to get into hard-milling, which requires a machine in good condition! To get the machine back into 'factory spec' I rebuilt every axis and replaced the spindle. The axis rebuilds included new ballscrews, thrust bearings, couplers and lube system!
It was actually a lot of fun doing the rebuild (apart from the spindle issues), hope you guys enjoy the video!
If you have any questions let me know in the comments!
-Aaron
Already been said by others - your shop is very neat, clean, and organized. I'm sure that carries over into your manufacturing, construction, and quality aspects. Thanks for sharing.
+Tony Bowers thanks bud! I try to keep the quality in every part of my process! Glad that shows!
nice work👌🏻 would love to see an update on your production routine. milling videos are so satisfying.
+Sebastian Uhl thanks mate! I will be posting an updated production video soon!
Ballscrew, and ballscrew bearings are pretty much all you need to keep the machine running on tolerance. Very nice video!.
Very nice machine!.
Thanks very much Jose! Sorry for the slow response! Yeah new ballscrews and thrust bearings definitely made a huge difference!!
Nice to see you back and about on CZcams.... even though it's been sporadic, I still appreciate the effort and the content that you provide to those of us who enjoy watching you work. Cheers - Clarhett
+Clarhett Coalfield thanks very much mate! I'm planning to get back to more videos over the next few years!
The design, organization and maintenance of your shop is equally as inspiring as your knife craft.
+CampfireTalk thanks very much mate!
Great to see you back.... Always look forward to your content....
I vote for a continuous live feed of the shop.
+William Smith thanks mate!!
aye!
He's back!!!
+Smü haha, hey bud!
I'm in am apprenticeship program to Build and repair Lathes and C.N.C.s of all sizes and scale. It's a five year program. The work is great and it's a rare opportunity because there's not many of us ho do this in southern California I'm also in a Machinist trade college at the moment at the same time. It's an amazing career PATH..
Nice mate! That sounds like a good trade to get into!
I'd watch this all in real time
+12345NoNamesLeft haha, that would be a long video!
That looks like a ton of work! Been watching your videos getting ready to make my first knife. Putting the filing jig together tonight. Thanks for all of the helpful videos.
+Brian Smith nice! Thanks mate, yeah it was a bunch of work but it was worth it!
I always appreciate the thoughts and science/testing you put behind your reasoning, i would love to know more about how hard-milling affect everything. Cheers. PS super stoked your back :P
+Axel Sanner thanks Axel! The hard milling helps make my process easier and shorter without any negative effects on the blades. It's a bit more expensive because I go through tools faster, and it takes a fair bit longer on the CNC, but that's about it!
We missed you.
+Angel del Pozo thanks bud!
Great to see another video from you!
Thanks mate!
Nice to see you back . That was a lot of work . But it looks like it was worth it . Take care .
Thanks Glen!
Better than a manual for others that want to follow your lead. Tour de force for your mechanic skills.
Thanks very much gary!
What? You're not a spindle grinder, too? Thanks for bring us along!👍
Haha not yet James, maybe next time a spindle needs grinding I will give it a go!
Fantastic job. Your next fun update to that VMC10 is turn it into a 30 x 16 travel just find a used saddle table and rebuild the same way and change the SETP. I know a fadal rebuilder that some time is just tossing that assembly from a too worn out machine too costly to rebuild. i bought an entire machine from him for 500 bucks but it was in seriously bad condition. but completely rebuilt it. And maybe turn it into a 4 axis with a tombstone and quadruple your output.
That's actually a pretty awesome idea! I also love the idea of using a 4th with a tombstone, I have thought about it a few times, perhaps I should look into it more seriously!
Also, you should send me contact details for that Fadal rebuilder, I'd be interested in getting another machine off him!
Sorry for how long it took to respond but Dave at M & M he is the only Service tech that went through the Fadal Certified re-manufacturing program. Website is mmcnc.net/ContactUs.htm Dave worked for us at Fadal for 15+ years.
Oh and for the Rotary give me a call i can get you hooked up. www.indexdesignscnc.com/
I just picked up a Fadal VMC 4020 today in great running condition for $1200, no joke. But, it's older being a 1989. However, now I must go back in time and learn again to talk through a serial port and drip feed information.
Nice mate! That's a very good price for that machine! The older Fadals with the 88 control (as opposed to the 88HS) are a little more limited in how complex of a part they can machine (they are not fast enough to keep up with complex 3D contouring for example) but they are still solid machines! It will treat you well for a long time! And you can upgrade the control for about $5k if you decide you want more out of it in the future!
@@GoughCustom Will be a plan to upgrade the control for sure! After watching your videos I went and learned the difference between controls but I figure at the price with everything still in great shape, I count the blessing to have it.
@@mythril4 Absolutely mate, you got a great deal!!
Great addition to the shop mate! Thanks for sharing
Cheers mate, thanks for watching!
Welcome back Aaron. I look forward to your videos. Keep up the good work.
Cheers Richard!
So excited to see you posted a video!! PLEASE keep them coming!!
+Goat thanks bud, will do!
Welcome back! We missed you
+Michael Kaufman thanks mate!
Looks incredible, nice peace of work. One day, I'll get hold of one of your knives... Keep going
+Stewart Holmes thanks very much Stewart!
Aaron, if you ever want an industrial engineer over the summer, seriously let me know. Would love to see these knives coming out full production pace.
+Tyler Rogers thanks mate, I'll let you know!
Great to see you making videos again, Your videos inspired me to make knives also. Keep up the good work Aaron. 🍻
+Jeff Glover thanks Jeff, will do!!
Nice video, LOVE the sound !
+Guillaume Cote thanks! Glad you like the sound, it took a while to record that specifically for these videos!
Despite the machine being only 23 years old, that control panel looks like it's straight out of the 1960's.
Haha, yeah true! It is very solid though!
@@GoughCustom and it looks beautiful
Great job brotha...
Thanks Bryan!
it's amazing to see that even if the machine is massive you know exactly where to put your hands and when.
i honestly want to know how, it's not like there's a instructions manual for it.
It takes some time to learn about the machines but they're actually pretty simple when it comes down to it!
Your milling machine is great! will last a long time!
+MagMax thanks mate, I hope so!
there you are ! woooooooooo.. love your videos man !
+justice & sword haha thanks bud!
No way. Where were you? (Rhetorical)
Glad to have you back!!!!
Definitely my favorite knife maker
Hey Pete! Just been super busy working to catch up on customer orders, will hopefully be posting more videos soon!
Thanks mate, very kind of you!
Holy flying blades, that spindle is huge o.O always loved your mill but honestly, I never thought about how big this thing is and... that spindle is at least 4 times bigger than the one on my CNC... THAT is terrifying! And totally Awesome! I'm so envious ;D Keep up the good work man!
+FzudemR haha, yeah the spindle weighs about 100 pounds... It's relatively small compared to some of the spindle assemblies I've seen... You should check out a CAT50 spindle cartridge! What CNC do you have?
Gough Custom okay.. that CAT50 spindles are pure, massive, milling goodness!! BEAUTIFUL! Thanks for the toolgasm, man, wow!!
I have a 3040 CNC (the more quality ballbearing version), motors and interface are from a german shop (www.rc-letmathe.de if you are interested) and i use a kress 1050 on it :D
i thought this thing is a monster compared to my dremel but as always, everything is relative!
Well, of course this is a small hobby-machine compared to your baby, but i'm very impressed, of what that 1000€ setup is capable!
For someone like me, who builds slingshots for fun, this machine is a dream-come-true :)
Good to see you back!
+Mic Taylor thanks Mic!
Great vid. I like it a lot thanx
+Emilio Núñez Martínez thanks mate!!
I would like to see the power cable running into that thing! Man it's massive!
+Oli4vn it's pretty serious, about 1" in diameter! The breaker is 220v 3 phase, 20 amps!
Great to see you back Man!!!!!
Thanks Mark!
Actually pretty interesting ,
Thanks, glad you liked it!
no worries make more videos !, usto have a cool lathe i could run but it was an older one , nothing but respect for machinists , that alec steele guy is pretty interesting atm too he has some sick old machinist tools ; I bet the fucking around with the spools cost a lot , rip money
very nice video
+zmajmr thanks mate!
Nice machine, I'm envious.
+metallitech thanks bud!
Ever thought to have a go at making axes with this? The ones that have the huge drop in them at the bottom of the blade? Like a speed axe even? I think that is an additional market for you.
That would definitely be a fun project! I have thought about it a few times, but just haven't had the time to work on it!
Was just wondering the other day where you went. Glad you're back. Looking forward to more of your high quality work. Can you introduce us to the crew we saw running around in the video?
Hey Scott! Thanks mate!
The crew in the video: early in the video you can see my girlfriend helping out and learning some of the mechanical stuff, and later on you see a close friend of mine who has a workshop in the same building as me, he builds guitars and is a frequent visitor in the shop!
More videos please I have waited to long
+Star Fish hopefully there will be more coming soon!
You're a cool dude simply said
+timothy .t thanks bud!
Terrific amount of work and awesome to see all the details (although fast) and another video from you Aaron. Must be worth it to be able to hard-mill and a bit more of a breeze to go through being clean enough to eat off of this time!! Curious how much improvement you gained with all of that $$ and time? Are you buying coated hardened (handle looked coated) flat stock blanks then milling all in one shot now? Thanks for sharing this and your tremendous talents with us...just the Best! ~PJ
+pjsalchemy hey PJ! I saw tonnes of improvement, I went from several thou of backlash to effectively zero on all axes! My supplier sends me steel nicely ground, and then I have it hardened here before machining, then the coatings are applied after hand sanding and so on... Glad you liked the video mate!
I think if you were to get more space it would be worth getting a Mazak VQC15/40. They aren't too expensive on the used market and they are a much better machine for hard metal work.
+douro20 sounds good to me! There are lots of machines I'd love once I get more space!
Can’t believe those linear ways are unsupported on the ends like that.
That part of the ways is actually not used, it's just left long to support the way cover....
Gough Custom ah, makes sense. I’ve got a 91 Leblond Makino FNC 60 that is my main mill. I wish I had the patience to do a full rebuild like you did. It needs everything done you did, I just can’t take it out of commission that long.
These videos are very enjoyable, I can not figure where you get the time and money to buy and maintain these machines!
+Enderwiggan1 thanks! In this case the Neville has paid for itself many times over already, Ave with the rebuild is more capable and will continue paying for itself!
I can't wait to get one of those! Not sure if I should start with a Grizzly or just save up for the big daddy
Hey mate!
I have owned a grizzly milling machine, and to be honest it wasn't terribly good at anything... If you think you can save up for a CNC mill like this Fadal then I think it would be really worth it! There are some out there for really insane prices. For instance I just bought another 2 of these Fadal CNCs for $3,900 each! They need some work, but both are in working condition and could be used as-is. It is actually a lot of fun fixing the machines up, and they are not too hard to work on! Always happy to answer questions if you have them!
-Aaron
@@GoughCustom Thank you for the advice. I have 220v wired for my KMG and kiln but it looks like the Fadal mills running 600v 3 phase.
@@TinkerPrepper 220v 3 phase is plenty! That's what I have. Some might be wired for different voltages, but there's usually a transformer or wherever you can use
I like your knife work. I am sir Lankan.
+Ajith Perera thanks mate!
I can imagine how much time and effort did it take to figure all this shit out...
Yeah it took a while, it was fun though!
Should've included the first time you used after, or the knife you showed at the beginning being made, but nice vid, and impressive set up. I don't know metalwork so well, but I was impressed anyway...
+Daniel Johannes I will be posting another video soon!
hola saludos desde leon guanajuato mexico, tengo un fadal 20'16 y no lubrican las bancadas me comentan que la bomba de lubricacion si funciona, podria hacer algun totorial para poder reparar gracias. Muy buenos sus videos
So you still run the original controller / software with it and drip feed it? Or did you put another controller into it?
I'm in progress of fixing a 20 year old Mitsubishi based CNC, I think about changing them to LinuxCNC as soon as possible.
Finally!!! Moar videos!!!
+praetorx ian yes sir, should be more coming soon!
Yeah, there's more videos that available knives for sale...
AvE sent me. Turns out I been here before, just wasn't today
Well I hope you liked the video!
Nice work, shame about the spindle runout and shady manufacturers not stepping up to fix things.
Can I ask about costs and a few things? I'm at the point where where I'm considering a new Haas mini mill or an older VMC and replacing the bits needed.
So just wondering where you got your parts from? Were they Chinese or did you go for local (where ever that is)? Why didn't you replace the rails and carriages too?
Nice to see it working and it looks like a good piece of kit now too. Very clean :-)
Jools
Hey Jools!
All the parts came from either FadalCNC.com or ITSCNC.com Fadals are a good choice because there are several companies that are still supporting them and even manufacturing replacement parts despite the original manufacturer being out of business. Additionally Fadals were largely the same during their entire time being made which means that getting parts for them is relatively simple. The issue with the spindle was really a surprise. I ended up buying spindles from both companies mentioned above and both had different issues. Everything else I have bought from ITS has been top notch and they are my preferred supplier for parts.
The main reason I didn't replace the rails and carriages is simply because it's an incredible amount of work and requires more lifting equipment than I have. You would have to remove the head, table and saddle completely from the machine, replace the rails with units having matched heights, and then make sure that everything goes back together and stays square. Not something I would like to attempt even now unless I had an overhead gantry crane to be honest. I think the table and saddle would be fine, but I wouldn't want to tackle the head unless I really had to.
-Aaron
Love this! I do mostly aluminum. Is the Fadal the best machine under 10k that can fit under a 7ft door? Or would a drill tap machine be a better garage vmc?
The drill taps that I have seen have all been fairly expensive for used machines, and I would imagine that getting parts for them would be more difficult than for a Fadal (especially a Fanuc drill-tap). Personally I would go with Fadal or HAAS for a garage VMC.
@1:50 ... I GOT STUFF TO DO MAN! xD
Haha, that's my mate Jeremy, he used to work just down the hall from me so we'd be visiting each other constantly. He moved a couple of hours away now, miss those random drop-ins!
Sweet! Could you measure a difference at all in the axis? Backlash?
+russtuff absolutely! I can't remember exact backlash numbers but I think it was above a thou, now backlash on all axes is zero
Very interesting to see the linear rails on that machine. How wide are they ? What do the trucks look like ?
I would guess they are 35mm rails, the trucks are pretty standard long trucks!
@@GoughCustom I assumed cnc machimes used steel on steel ways, like a Bridgeport. Replaceable rails with roller bearing trucks are much better.
Some do, these are called 'box way machines' but that is less common these days as box ways have a lot of drag and stiction which makes driving the machine at the high speeds needed for modern machining more difficult!
That's beautiful Aaron, I alway liked you sharing your stuff. Where would one look to buy one of your blades? Also how do you come up with the program to get the knife you want out of a machine like that, or is that a closely guarded secret. Great stuff brother!! Good on you!!
+Don Davis thanks mate! I sell only through my website (goughcustom.com), I will hopefully have some more knives up by the end of the year. I do all of my 3D modeling and programming using fusion 360, no secrets there!!
Do you still mill your bevels in steps, or can you mount the blade on an angle and take it in one pass with a fly cutter?
+Ben Winchester it has to be fine in multiple passes, the blades actually went flat (it falls off toward the tip) so it's really the only option.
How far out was your spindle? What kind of TIR did you see after the regrind? I recently bought a 90 Kitamura VMC and I am seeing about .0004" on the spindle taper. I am thinking about having it ground in place like you did.
The spindle taper had very little runout, but once a tool was in there I saw about 0.0005" runout near the spindle nose. Main issue was not really runout but lack of taper contact, I only had about 50% contact.
Do you machine already heat treated blanks? I watched your high tech knife manufacturing video, and I'm highly positive, that you told that machined blades are heat treated by local company in that blue submarine-like furnace. But you mentioned milling 62-64 rockwell materials. Did I miss something? Great video and beautyful workshop, nevertheless.
Hey mate! In the "making a knife the high tech way" video I show only machining on soft steel, however since that video was filmed I have switched over to machining only hard steel after heat treatment. I believe ultimately I will adopt a hybrid method where the profile is machining soft and the blade is machined hard.
You've had the Fadal for a few years now, and I guess since you're putting so much time an money into a further restoration, that you are pretty happy with it. How do you find working with the old controller works for you? I've seen some Fadal videos online, and compared to the modern Tormach's etc, the controller is pretty old-school. I'm looking at a 3016 with 4th axis now, and would like to hear from another user without formal training (like myself). Thanks for the update
Hey mate!
There are 2 versions of the control, the '88' and the '88HS'. The 'HS' stands for 'High-Speed' and that version of the control is completely capable of keeping up with modern toolpaths. The plain '88' control won't be as satisfactory...
So far I have been very happy! The machine runs like clockwork, sometimes up to 15 hours per day with no issues. It won't do 3D feedrates as high as a modern machine will, I keep mine under 60IPM for reliability, it will run a lot faster than that (up to 250ipm) but when running a complex 3D toolpath it will sometimes overshoot and generate a 'servo overload' error, so for reliability I dial it back a bit.
For the money they are great machines, much much more capable than a Tormach. To get the same capability in a modern machine you are looking at buying at least a HAAS.
-Aaron
I understand why you replaced all the ball screws, I`m just wondering if after you had the old ones out, did you notice any wear in them or the thrust beargings
+HoYin1600p hey mate! Yes there was noticeable backlash on all axes, after the rebuild there is zero on all axes which is awesome! The old ballscrews are corroded unfortunately which probably caused most of the issue... Thrust bearings looked mostly ok, but they're fairly inexpensive to replace so I did them at the same time as insurance
Very cool. Do you have any experience or training working on these types of machines? Did you just figure it out?
+Eric Snyder no training mate, just work it out as I go!
Hello Aaron.
I was hoping you could help me. I have a Fadal VMC 4020 and the y axis is making a weird noise, like a dry rusty hinge. I suspect it's the ball bearings. Have any idea what it can be? And what would you do to repair it? Replace only the end shaft ball bearings or should i replace the whole assembly? (sorry for any language mistakes, hope you can understand).
Cheers!
Hey mate! Du you have any issues or than the noise? Any lost motion in Y? I would start by oiling the way covers, they can make weird squeaking noises if they're dry. If that doesn't work start checking for lost motion with a dial indicator. If you find lost motion start by replacing the thrust bearings, if that doesn't fix it you'll have to replace the ballscrew!
No other issues(that i notice), everything seems fine but that noise makes me really worried. I actually replaced those rubber seals between the covers, that was my first guess.
I will try that! Thanks for the reply Aaron.
Cheers mate!
No worries, let me know how it goes!
So, you replaced the spindle discovered that the pulley wouldn't fit and then got another spindle where the taper was wrong? That has to be pretty frustrating!
+Charlton Wang that's correct! And yes, it was exceptionally frustrating! Especially seeing as neither company saw anything wrong with their products and were very little help!
Was the first one from Fadal or was it also a third party? Either way...good to see that you got things working again.
+Charlton Wang both were third party, Fadal has only just started existing again and as far as I know they're not providing support for older machines, though I will be following up with them about that soon!
Would you mind telling who the spindle suppliers were that sent bad spindles?
+Bobby Hershfeld happy to tell you in an email, don't want to publicly out them as I still need them as a supplier for other things... Email: aaron@goughcustom.com
Hi, thanks for sharing the information. Are the axis motors DC motors or you replaced with something new, thanks.
+Masso CNC Controllers they're the original DC motors, from what I can see they're in good shape though!
thats great, the machine looks so neat, great work and thanks for getting back.
I'd love to know where can I get one? (VMC 10)
You've done a beautiful work.
Thanks mate! This model is actually fairly rare, but the Fadal VMC15 is the same one, only different is the 15 has a full enclosure, which is a very nice thing to have!
You'd know this machine inside out now. Who you get to regrind the spindle?
+Manny Calavera yeah definitely, which is a huge advantage because now I can fix it and maintain it! Spindle was done by DiPaolo machine tools
Here in Southern California and looking at buying my first CNC Milling Center. It’s a 2014 vintage Fadal . This is the first version of Fadals built in Taiwan after the Fadal Family sold the company and closed down manufacturing in California. Has anyone any experience with this machine? Is it a good machine? Thanks for any answers!
I would post your questions on the PracticalMachinist forum so I (and others who know other models of Fadal better) can help you there
@@GoughCustom Yes I have done that and getting some feedback but no one that has that vintage Fadal. Thank 4 reply. www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/2014-fadal-4020b-made-taiwan-378841/index4.html?posted=1#post3571773
Can you upload a video for the grinding process in normal speed !~PLZ
Sorry mate, I no longer have that footage...
are you using grease or way lube. looks like a grease gun?
This machine is designed to be greased, it takes Mobil SHC32 grease a couple of times per year. I kinda wish it had central lube, but to be honest the grease system is pretty simple!
I'm impressed. How long did that take?
It was less than a week for the ballscrews and so on, then almost another 3 weeks of mucking around with the spindle unfortunately...
Damn!
+Jim M haha, thanks Jim!
What did all this set you back?
+Foxtrot about $7-8k in parts if I remember right
Ok Gough, spill the Beans, did you have to sell your first born to pay for the spindle guy? I know the ball screws would have been $2500 each at least if you got C3s. I want to know the numbers of this baby. My wife here in Melbourne is a supporter, she is also OCD ( Oh I know you're not OCD, your just very neat! Of course you are :-) I won't tell anyone)
Actually the ball screws were only ~USD$900 per axis... They were NSK screws as well. Came from a supplier that just does 'factory original' parts for Fadals, so not sure what grade they are.
The spindle regrind was a bit over $1200 which I think is pretty reasonable!
I might be a tiny bit OCD :D
They were C5s for sure. Thats OK. C5s are pretty good +/- 17 to 23 microns. C3s are a different level. Did you think about replacing the rails as well? That spindle regrind price is very good. Getting a reinshaw ball bar and laser interferometer test is about the same. Now can we talk about the controller. That thing looks like it helped get the Lunar lander into orbit. But I think you look like you have worked it out and now know it like an old girl friend. Speaking of which. The wife wants to know. Is that a girlfriend I see helping you? If it is....well done you twisted eyed pirate you.
+gus bisbal haha yes that's my girlfriend helping out early in the video! I'm lucky to have met someone who like getting her hands dirty and learning new things!
I figured the ballscrews werent the highest grade but absolute accuracy is not a requirement for my work so it's all good.
I thought about replacing the rails but I've never had any issues I could attribute to them and it's pretty major surgery to replace them, so I figured best to leave them. They're in 'ok' condition with the exception of the X rails which are a bit dodgy.
The control is actually pretty good, my only complaint is that the servo/control system can't reliably run over about 60ipm because it will sometimes overshoot and fault out... I would like to get another identical machine and fit a new control and servos, then do the same on this machine. However I won't tackle that while I've only got a single machine...
I followed the spindle saga on PM, why didn't you just have the original spindle rebuilt? The hard parts are what you had problems with, and there are plenty of spindle rebuilders.
+EFormance Engineering hey mate! The rebuild quotes I got up here in Canada were more than a new spindle unfortunately. The plan initially was to be back up and running in a few days with the drop in spindle, but alas it didn't go so well... I still have the old spindle and may look at having it rebuilt in the USA as a spare...
dude, what you education?
+bifaceAR nothing beyond high school actually mate!
Honestly speaking, expert like you should buy a machine structure and install just the CNC and motors, it is a big waste of time to replace everything.
I'm certainly interested to hear more about it! What's your website?
Hey mate! I found your website and had a look over it, the machines look amazing! I'd be very interested to get pricing on the HSM650 and MV650 with Siemens controls and also with no control... Can you send me an email at: aaron@goughcustom.com thanks!!
thanks, Gough, it is good to hear from you, we will work on it next week.
Gough Custom sorry, we are busy with CCMT in shanghai, will try to give price next week
Make a knew video on how you made the bevel jig that vid was in 2013 please re make it
+Star Fish how come I would make it again?