The way I'm readin the Berdly thing is basically the following: In the neutral route, Berdly's arm is damaged. The damage is unclear, but given his reaction, there's a feeling of weakness and pain. Due to the way it occured, it's probably broken or missing in the dark world. Now go to the light world. He clearly doesn't feel any pain and is surprised that his arm isn't working. It seems to indicate a lack of damage. His arm isn't broken, but he still can't use it. I forgot the medical term, but this is a prime example of a syndrome in which the brain believes there is something wrong with the body and will act accordingly. For example, being unable to see despite there not being any reason for it. This is what I'm pretty sure is going on. Onto the Snowgrave route, this is what I think is happening. Basically Berdly's body is working normally and is very much alive, but his brain thinks he's dead and is behaving as such. He's basically fallen into a coma.
Either that or he is in a coma before death. In undertale, i dont remember where, it is explained that if a monster just happens to die then it first will fall into a comatose and then turn into dust. Given how berdly broke his arm in the dark world and in the light world he simply cant move his arm, we could suppose that berdly dying in the dark world would put him in said comatose before death in the light world, so he is about to turn into dust, just not right now
For me it seems that *monsters can use magic, but it's regarded as a weird occult/ esoteric practice that isn't known very well.* Here's some reasons why: 1. Catti in chapter 2 says that Kris and Noelle used to study occult together. *It's possible this "occult" might be magic?* 2. *Kris* is shown in chapter 2 to *have searched "how to use magic",* perhaps indicative that monsters can use magic, while humans cannot. 3. *Noelle might've used Snowgrave before,* possibly killing Dess in the process on accident. This is because Noelle can cast Snowgrave despite being _insistent_ that she doesn't know the spell, and that she's stated to stare in a trance-like state at the freezer in sans' store. 4. Berdly doesn't turn to dust because *Berdly is likely in a "Fallen Down" state* (or at least into a coma). This is because being murdered in the Dark World might be killing Berdly's mind, but it isn't directly murdering the body. 5. Personally I believe that all monsters have determination, it's just far less compared to humans. Boss monsters have a bit more than the average monster, but it's still miniscule compared to humans. *Still, you might need only a small amount of determination to make a dark fountain.* 6. I believe *dark fountains enhance existing abilities or expose latent abilities,* hence as to why monsters use magic in the dark world and Kris still can't use magic (but can use soul and determination based abilities, like turning their soul into a justice/ yellow soul, saving and loading(?) and using their soul to strengthen ally attacks) 7. A book in the librarby in chapter 2 states how the properties and purpose of souls aren't well known in this universe. 8. Treating magic as occult might line up more with Toby's vision, as the light world is shown to be a lot more mundane and similar to our real world, where people genuinely believe in spirits, religions, magic, etc. but it's not widely accepted as factual. I might be a bit biased since I prefer the idea of both universes having the same mechanics, but I suppose we'll see in future chapters whether monsters have magic or not!
I think monsters can’t create fountains, because ralsei is shown when it says “can’t anyone make a fountain with enough determination” and ralsei obviously can’t create a fountain
@@hall511 I mean, yeah, but there's no majority that agrees on a single interpretation of any religion. Not to mention, agnostic and atheistic viewpoints are becoming more common and acceptable. Popular religions isn't viewed to be as esoteric as, say, magic, but it's not to the level of it being a science. To bring it back to Undertale/ Deltarune, you can see how monster magic is pretty much a science in Undertale given by how Gaster and Alphys study it as "royal scientists". Meanwhile, magic is relegated to esotericism in Deltarune, and even the prophecy is seen much more as a specific religious belief rather than the widely held belief that almost all monsters had in Undertale about the prophecy I guess you can see religion as being believed in more than occult stuff, but less than hard science.
Actually during the jevil, king, and spamton neo fights Kris's acts require tp to be used, meaning they can also use magic in the dark world. Though it's probably not as strong as they're friends magic.
I think it's actually more interesting if monsters do dust in this world. It makes the implications of Berdly's death so much worse because you didn't just outright kill him- you erased his mind, leaving only a braindead body in its place. Outside of this, though, there is a state between dusting and life that's referenced several times in UT- Falling Down. It's even stated to resemble a coma, which is super fitting here. Also, Susie mentions _"crushing their enemies into dust"_ directly before the team fight, so I think it's safe to say she's just bein' edgy as always. =>
Same - I can't imagine people finding Berdly's comatose body, doing some medical checkups on him and finding out that he's in a vegetative state or even soon to die from being fallen down. Seems like more to make us feel guilty about doing the Snowgrave route
Noelle does say something about being able to use healing magic, in a reference to her dad's illness, in the dark world, that implies is not a thing in the light world, or atleast not as good, specially considering they have a hospital where people get treatment instead of just getting healed with magic. The graveyard is another thing that may point to monsters being different in deltarune, burying ashes is a thing, but usually you don't think about that when we're talking about dust remains, but the tombstones could also just be symbolic. Who knows
I believe in Undertale the library specifically mentions that when a monster dies, their ashes are spread on something they liked. So at the very least the funeral tradition here is different, if not the entire death process. And yeah the Noelle line pretty much confirms that monsters can't used magic, since she would have said "too bad magic isn't as effective in the real world" or some variation of that if magic was possible. That said, just because monsters can't use magic doesn't necessarely mean they aren't made out of magic. Maybe this is a reality where monsters and humans never went to war, so magic was never developed as a weapon and knowledge of it didn't spread in monster society.
I'm pretty sure that the tombstones aren't symbolic and that the corpses of monsters are buried below them. According to Arthur (or whatever the name of Gerson's son was), his hammer was buried with him. So that implies that yes, he is there. Him being dust or a whole corpse tho is up for debate
@@JadeJuno If you backtrack to the mouse cheese maze after having Noelle be able to use Snowgrave, if you use it on the mice, instead of the monsters running away, they fade away into dust before cutting off of the screen.
@@spicybtw7251 Darkeners are not really monsters in the species sense besides that fact Darkeners are items or based on things in the light world, if I remember correctly they are also red so that probably means it is not linked to that the fact the darkener died but instead supposed to be used for a different spell. Also unless the darkeners that froze are still alive while frozen, they should have turned to dust. Unless you have a valid answer to why they didn’t freeze like a certain lightener then this the end.
Cool theory, but I think snowgrave berdly could be like... fallen down? Like in Undertale. He is in a state at the height of death, but he is only a sleeping. And, in Undertale, humans can also use magic, they sealed monsters with magic, with seven wizards. so maybe in this world the monsters It costs them much more than humans to use magic, they would have to be wizards, and humans could easily use magic, but not Kris, because they still a bit small.
Theory about those wizards, I think they got their powers from killing boss monsters like Asgore during the war, which is how most monsters know that Asgore's soul can be taken by a human. This could also be the reason that Asgore and Toriel seem to be the last of their kind, because targeting the boss monsters would not only remove powerful fighters, but bolster the humans' own ranks.
We don't know how Dark Worlds really work. Maybe it's only your consciousness that goes into the dark world, and the body stays behind in either stasis or just plain sleep. Characters do seem to wonder if the dark world is a dream a whole lot. And that would explain Berdly -- he didn't die, just his consciousness did. His body was left in some sort of vegetative state.
@@bradleyadams5252 Good point. Chara and Asriel did share a body for a while, as Asriel explains at the end of True Pacifist. Maybe a human and monster sharing a human body can use magic, and the human's determination is potent enough to maintain full control, essentially turning the monster soul into a magical battery.
Another thing hinting towards monsters bleeding is when Lancer says he is going to put your blood in a bucket. If monsters don’t bleed Susie would have definitely pointed that out.
I don't think she actually would though - After that scene, he immediately asks Susie if he was getting scarier, and she tries her best to try to cheer him up. Pointing out logical flaws in his display wouldn't really be "cheering on lancer", though.
Determination doesn't make monsters melt. Having a LOT of determination makes them melt. Humans can handle more than they can. Berdly being dead in one world but not awake in another is yet to be explored, it's hard to say. I do think the fire magic usage and lack of magic in general in the overworld is very strange, however.
I was watching your deltarune 2 iceberg and heard you talk about how Ralsei doesn't turn to stone. I think it's because of his fountain. Ralsei's dark world fountain warps itself to fit with people from the other dark worlds. I believe Ralsei has the ability to atune to other fountains. Besides, we know that the darkners and their fountain are linked (cyber world fountain creating cyber enimies and NPCs, and not having things that wouldn't fit in the cyber world) so Ralsei may have that ability
I believe the part about why Ralsei doesn’t turn to stone but I think it’s pretty clear that the dark world turns inanimate objects into living beings.
@@mprogamerx191 he doesn't leave our pocket. We out see them turn if they leave our pocket. Also Ralsei says that the cyber world fountain isn't compatible with lancer and Ruxles Kard. It's also probably just because he was a joke and making a cutscene to show him turn into stone wouldn't really impact anything. Oh no starwalker is stone! Who wants to go see Spamton?
Nice theory! An explanation for Toriel's absence of fire magic use is that the Deltarune timeline may have caused her to never have to learn fire magic in order to fight, so she doesn't cook with it either
I may be remembering wrong, but isn't it said in Undertale that monsters don't get sick? In Deltarune however, they do, and they have a whole hospital to deal with that. The "doesn't it hurt to be made out of blood" could imply that there's some misconceptions on how human anatomy works, and not that mosnters don't have blood, it could be that monsters believe the "humans are 70% water" means "humans are mostly skin bags of blood".
However, they can get sick now They're on the surface. They adapt to human enviornments like food and culture and start to become able to bleed (ex: glitchtale) And there can be diseases in blood, which can yes make you sick if that idnt obvious.
however, monsters may have adapted to the enviornment made by humans humans (again, 2nd time, they were on the surface before) and can get sick As a theory, not a gt belief this time. its unknown if monsters can bleed. They may get sick sure, but they cant bleed
@@TehRealJeje it's still a possibility, but well... Who knows what Toby's thinking untill he reveals it, right? The waiting game always rewards us with the *best* of theory fuel for Toby's games...
1:33 I think that is more than implied, cause after the battle against the robot queen, Berdly is shown infusing his halberd with determination with the intention to sink it into the ground to create a new dark fountain, but he is stopped by Ralsei, whom then informes everybody about the roaring. If monsters couldn’t use determination, there would be no danger, Ralsei wouldn’t have needed to shout at Berdly for him to stop, because if Berdly couldn’t use determination the attempt would simply fail. Ralsei's panicked reaction confirms it to me.
Tbf tho, Ralsei may not know that monsters don't have determination. And that "infusing his halberd with determination" moment might just be him charging his halberd with magic thinking it would work? _Not sure about that-_
@@JadeJuno at the same time, at least for me, Ralsei seems to know so much about all of this prophecy, The Roaring and stuff, that it'd be weird if he didn't know that some lightners can't make fountains
I'm leaning towards oversight on the "Everyone bleeds" thing. It's a common phrase, and it fits Susie's personality which is probably why Toby gave it to her without considering it might not make sense for a monster. Also for Toriel teaching Susie how to use the stove, it's not like Susie knows fire magic. She would need to know how to use the stone itself to cook, even if it's not what Toriel typically does.
Or maybe everyone does bleed, and in the end of Deltarune, we see either all of reality turn into Undertale's reality, or we see Sans jump from Deltarune to Undertale because Sans is the only monster in Undertale to bleed, so he has to be from this reality
Let's, like teach you to defend yourself and stuff with this hella awesome spell I found online! Where did I find it? Well the internet's down so it wouldn't matter if I told ya. Now do you want to like learn the spell or what?
@@Pikrioling Personally, I think it's genuine magic being treated more as esoteric/ occulty stuff. Kris is shown to have searched up "how to use magic", and since Catti says she studied occult with both Noelle and Kris, it's possible Kris wanted to use magic just like them. Noelle also might've used Snowgrave once before (perhaps in a traumatic incident?), hence as to why she's *extremely* insistent on not knowing that spell unlike any other monster spell used in the dark world. (An NPC in sans' shop also states that Noelle stares at the freezer sometimes, possibly repressing her trauma of using that spell)
Extra point: "And everything can be healed with a little spell" - Noelle So while this could mean no HEALING magic exists, I feel that is more like there isnt any magic at all
1) Susie saying everybody bleeds is her trying to scare Lancer. 2) Toriel doesn't use magic because she (and monsters) doesn't have a need for it. 3) Berdly not turning to dust could just be that he's fallen down and not dead.
abt point 2, they have a lot of needs for it, for example, the stove thing that the video literally uses as its example. And noelle even uses the fact that the dark world has magic and spells implying that magic is exclusive to the dark world. And again, susie-axe thing the video points out. And unused susie bleeding sprite in the files heavily implies that monster are completely different from undertale
Btw not even darkners die in dust, in snowgrave if you kill mause from the mause maze with snowgrave they will just turn red and die. Not even run away, they die.
1) Susie was already friends with Lancer by that time so i don't think she would lie to him 2) Why would people need a hospital in the light world if they could just use healing magic? 3) Idk if Berdly's dead or just frozen in the dark world but either way he's dead in the light world since you can't go back to the cyber world to unfreeze him
I remembered that in Undertale, humans can use magic because in the beginning the humans sealed the monsters underground. And in the future of UT, it appears humans don't use magic anymore because of the convenience of technology and there's no monster threat anymore. So I think in the Deltarune world, monsters has forgotten how to use magic because of technology and peace, and the humans are the ones who are sealed in the underground which is the opposite of Undertale.
I think it’s less so that monsters can’t use magic and more that magic-use in this world is heavily associated with the occult (as said by Catti in ch.2). And in town such as Hometown where its religion is quite prevalent throughout, it makes sense that they mostly stray away from magic. *Especially* Toriel On Berdly, I think he’s not quite “dead” yet, but rather he has fallen down and it’s only a matter of days till he turns into dust. Edit: Also, if monsters couldn’t use magic, then why is Kris searching up how to use it?
Y'know... I've always interpreted Kris's search as them wanting to learn magic after their first Dark World adventure, but thinking back now, that doesn't seem to make much sense
Berdly's body - Berdly is just fallen down and hasn't died yet. Magic - no real need for magic. Also the whole thing why didn't they fight Lancer when they first encountered him is because Lancer was on an unreachable platform so running was the best option.
> no real need for magic Well, UT Toriel didn't need to use fire magic to cook her pie, yet she did. And healing magic existed in Undertale, so why wouldn't they use it to heal Noelle's dad?
If monsters are somewhat the same as humans in Deltarune, this could also mean monsters can’t absorb human souls like they can in Undertale. Monsters being able to absorb human souls in Undertale is what started the war. If they can’t in Deltarune, that would mean they would be no war, which explains why both humans and monsters live on the surface.
I like to think the Light world is completely devoid of magic, the town is a realistic place in every way except for monsters existing. It's likely that since monsters weren't casted underground, magic didn't become a necessity, and over time its existence was completely forgotten. We should probably assume the Undertale and Deltarune universes have completely different rules, and just because something is true in Undertale it doesn't mean the same will also be true for Deltarune.
@@user-vm9xz4kv9z Catty talks about occultism basically in the same sentence, so it probably isn't *magic* spells. Noelle, however, was talking about that having magic in real world would be cool
@@user-vm9xz4kv9z occult spells, duh. The one's that quiet gothlike girl in school class would do. You know, light the candles chant something 3 times and stuff
Somethin' I thought of that nobody else seems to consider: Could it be that the bunny monster that said: "does it hurt to be made of blood" might just not be made of blood? Like really consider that. Monsters come in a lot of different shapes and sizes, so they don't need to be built the same. Here's an example: While a lot of monsters have skin, there are plenty of examples such as Sans and Undyne, (Scales or just no skin at all) GRANTED, that's *skin* and not *blood,* so idk I'm just spit balling ideas here.
Ok, I think instead of Susie, the bunny is not so educaded since they seem to be much younger than her. Since there is a human in town their parents probably gave them a simplified explination of the differences between humans and monsters. With Berdly not turning into dust, I am not sure if he will because I forgot if the bodys of the monsters are buried or their dust. What I am very sure about is that Berdly did not turn into dust right away because his body was not damaged enough. It is just completely frozen in an icecube but still in all pieces. I think you have to destroy at least some part of a monster's body in order to turn them into dust right away. Remember monsters that fell down naturally also take a few days to turn into dust which is why Alphys thought she could get the souls of the monsters.
my take: berdly isn’t technically dead, he’s just frozen in the dark world, but is actually dead in that state and just doesn’t turn into dust since he’s frozen and thus well-preserved
Noelle at the end of chapter 2 says "I wish I knew magic in real life so I could heal you ( her father)." Also in the dark world Noelle also points out that food in dark world heals....
I strongly disagree. Toriel has no reason to use magic with Kris around, since they're human. And Susie simply can't use fire magic, or at least not that Toriel is sure of. She wants to show susie how to actually bake, so why would she skip the process by just using magic? Another thing; graveyards are mentioned to have items buried in them, rather than coffins. This is because these objects are the monster's favourite item from when they used to live. This explains the need for graveyards. I think Susie is just an outlier. No other monster actually pays mention to human anatomy, and Susie is not only violent, but knows of things like human burial, bleeding, etc. She might as well think all monsters are human-like or is just more educated on humans. There's also the thing that, in DR, humans and monsters live seemingly alongside eachother. In UT, they're actually decades behind in terms of technology and only barely starting to use electricity alongside magic. So, to me at least, it seems like in DR, magic just went into obscurity. It needn't be used anymore, because technology is easier and less energy-consuming. Also... would be confusing as hell for Toby to just change the way monsters work.
The change could be confusing, sure. But UT and DR are not exactly the same worlds, and not exactly fully connected between each other. Also, Noelle is implied that there's no magic
@@rove8620 how has she? Also, keep in mind the fundamentals are still the same. The characters are actually quite alike, except for their circumstances.
@@Akogiri Noelle wants to learn magic so that she can heal her dad, and Catti talks about researching the "occult" with Kris. Also I don't think Kris being around would stop Toriel from using fire magic, considering she bakes Frisk a pie with magic in UT. I think it's likely that monsters just aren't aware of / learned in magic in this universe, whereas it's normal in UT
@Akogiri And Noelle along with Berdly say that’s the dark work is the strange place and can solve everything with magic Edit: I mean Noelle and Susie :p
@@hedwyn8803 as I said, monsters are more "up to date" or "civilised" in this timeline and that might as well be the answer to anything. Also, well, again, Kris is Toriel's child. She wouldn't want to make them feel alienated and would probably rather use technology around them instead of actual, physical magic. And, to be fair, if Kris didn't know monsters use magic, I don't think the browser search about human magic in their cell in queen's mansion would be there. It just seems like such an obvious nod to the knowledge we have from UT
Yknow, have the anatomy worked exactly the same, it would be terrifying if in Chapter 3, in a save file with the Snowgrave route, it wouldve mentioned something about dust being present inside the closet of the computer lab.
I interpreted it this way: since monsters didnt loose war and never had to live underground, natural technology progress (most tech in undertale was coming from human junk) made it so they no longer need to rely on magic so much, so as time progressed, knowledge of spells and magic as such mostly got lost in time. Monsters still are, indeed magical and they still know that. Given that at some point Kris did a "how to use magic" search, and it wasnt in between chapter 1 and 2, when they recently discovered dark world, since internet was down at that point. A lot of people reason that Berdly is in "fallen down" state.
I'm pretty sure Berdly "fell down" as he got frozen in the Darkworld. In Undertale there where also Monsters that "fall down" before they die. It's some sort of comatose status. Alphys used the nearly Dead Monsters to experiment with Determination. But instead of turning to dust, they came back to live before melting anyways. But yeah I'm pretty sure Berdly has fallen down at this point. If he'll turn to dust later, that's a question for the next chapter
I prefer to view Deltarune as a more realistic approach to the universe, it would be hilarious if Undertale was a story made up by Kris themselves, but I'm fairly sure that's not the case. I just really love the idea. Anyway, just like you said, even the topics and characters appear to be more mature and serious, every single one has some sort of problem they deal with. Maybe Deltarune is just a more down to Earth approach where magic isn't a thing, but at the same time we have Dark Worlds so that throws it out of the window... I genuinely have no idea. I'd prefer the story of Deltarune to be completely "normal" because that's something that's very rarely used.
also the closet dialogue states its big enough to fit a body inside, but if monsters evaporated into dust, you wouldnt need to hide a body, unless it was referring to another human, but we havent seen a single one.
1:50 not much of an undertale lore consumer myself, but theres a term called "fallen down". its a comatose like state that monsters enter shortly before death. considering that berdly doesnt turn to dust in the dark world, hes likely just fallen down and turns to dust sometime after we leave. just food for thought
I'm quite sure this was obvious. Only thing is an object is burried in the graveyard, though this might just be a cultural thing monsters do in deltarune, cremate the person and bury them with the object they loved the most.
Now here's an interesting theory. If we assume that Sans is the same monster in both Undertale and Deltarune then Susie saying "Everyone bleeds" (also assuming that wasn't an oversight by Toby) that could explain Sans bleeding when you kill him in the Genocide route.
If we assume monsters do bleed in this universe and we take the newer sans theory that he’s a darkener or the Undertale sans is actually from Deltarune, it would also explain why he bleeds when he gets killed in the genocide route of the game but nobody else does when they get stabbed or killed.
this is a different universe than undertale, so you can't automatically assume they can't use magic when toriel hasn't been ever seen using fire magic in deltarune
I agree with the idea of Dealtarune monsters not dusting. My logic behind backing that up is the existence of a hospital and Rudy being in the hospital throughout both chapters. The hospital system implies that monsters can "recover from dying" in a way since that's what hospitals do. And we know these hospitals can make monsters feel better since Rudy is still there in Chapter 2. If he wasn't, then the claim that it just slows the dying process could be made since the second room has different NPCs in it. And Rudy also comments that he's feeling better to the point that he's considering going to Church - something a dusting monster would not consider doing in their final moments
Monsters seem to turning into dust (or anything else) in this universe too. There is something said about Gerson by monster being on his grave, that there was only his hammer buried there because "obviously" nothing else left after him.
Maybe this is just an evolution thing? Since war was over, the magic naturally dissipated to make way for... Determination (?) The monsters essentially became the "humans" now didn't they? They weren't as fragile but they sure also ain't as powerful in Undertale.
In the conversation with her dad noelle says that she wishes she knew healing magoc, which implies that it exists in the light world since she dismissed the dark world as a dream. Additionally in the files of undertale we learn of "falling down" which is basically the paralysis of monsters caused by either age or illness. It possible berdly is in this state because of the fact that injuries do seem to carry over back to the light world (see neutral route). A quote from the old show mash explains this best: "Hes already dead his heart just doesnt know its time to stop beating" As for bleeding, couldnt tell ya. Its possible that since there are skeletons that they have more than "flesh" and have some sort of bone structure also made of magic. And bones themselves contain some blood cells to allow transportation of calcium in and out of bones, which is why sans bled. Weather or not its Blood-Blood is up for debate of course, but this should explain everything
About the stove thing: I may be reading it wrong, but using normal fire or magic fire isn't gonna help if the cinnamon batter cake starts overflowing out of the recipient and falls on the stove, so I think what the "There's some cinnamon batter caked on the stovetop" line implies, is either that Toriel messed at least one of the pies and has yet to clean the stovetop OR, that Kris has tried to make a pie and they were the ones to mess up. As for Toriel teaching Susie how to use a stove, is not like everyone can use fire magic to cook, so gotta her how to use it properly.
Hey. I know this isnt the video, but your undertale and deltarune iceberg videos were some of the best videos i ever saw in my life, and is part of the reason why i came back to the undertale comunity, thank so much for it! btw im goin to see this video later
Toby: Deltarune is no way the same in Undertale, it is a different universe Fandom: _NO WEI THAT'S TRUE_ **searches for hours in the game's code** **mystery hunting** **theories** **overanalyzing** _OMG ITS TRUE_ Toby: *visible confusion*
maybe berdly has just "fallen down"- he'll be dead soon, snowgrave didnt kill him outright because there's a layer of seperation between the dark and light worlds. but hes down, and stopped moving...
I have to say this about this theory of magic. Kris wants to be a monster or more like a monster to fit in. Kris had a horned headband at one point and most importantly, searched on how to use magic. This implies that magic exists in deltarune and not as stage magic. Why do I think that? If it was stage magic it would have been a hobby for Kris, but it is proven that the hobby is piano. The nurse mentions Kris normally plays beautifully and you see that Kris's browser room in chapter 2 shows that paino tutorial was searched, this is where we see a search result for magic. There has been no inclination that Kris does stage tricks so the magic search mustve been an attempt to fit in. As for Toriel not knowing magic 2 things could be happening. 1. She doesn't want to remind Kris of not being able to use magic so she refrains from doing so. 2. She was not apart of the war, the war seems to end before her time and the most common use of magic we have seen in both games is combat, the fire cooking is the only instance I remember of non violent magic (that isn't green) in Undertale.
I think Berdly is alive and just knocked out, mostly because I think it'd be a LOT of work for Toby to keep throwing out twists like that when there's still 5 more chapters coming. It'd be a lot to do when planning how different routes work with and without the bird boy
I have a feeling they can to some capacity but don't rely on it as much as they did in Undertale. It's almost like magic was once prevalent but has fallen out of favor and has become slightly more occult based on the research Carti says she and Kris did together.
While I agree with monsters in Deltarune not being able to cast spells, I don't think that it means thier biology is substantially changed, more that it's a skill nobody learns. Because there was never a human-monster war in Deltarune, I don't think monsters would have a reason to do something so dangerous - even the humans in Undertale have a lot more weapons, like the Empty Gun, probably because of the history of all the warfare. The biggest flaw in the whole "monster biology is different" argument is the fact that we actually see the graveyard in Deltarune, and we're told that the monster funerals are exactly the same as in Undertale - the monster's dust is spread on thier favorite object and they bury it. If monsters had more physical substance, they would just bury the body. I think Berdly's death is clearly an example of a monster "falling down", or going into a coma before death - this happens because he doesn't die because of a physical assault, but rather he was "spiritually" attacked in the Dark World, which is physically closer to dying of illness or old age than being straight-up murdered.
@@ohwoah4324 You're right! I think monsters still do use magic, but more along the lines of Shyren or perhaps Catti's occult stuff. Something like Toriel's fire magic would probably be more of a "wartime" magic use. Kris still considers his pencil as a weapon, but it's a far cry from empty gun.
I noticed that magic seems to be consistent between monsters. By that I mean that there seems to be certain Types of magic being used. One of them being weapons being made with or summoned with magic. (Examples being Asgore Undyne and Berdly) And of coarse there are projectile attacks.
I believe this is important because obviously I doubt berdly would be able to do this without something altering magic. Which is why I think the dark world enhances magic. I don’t think that monsters can’t use magic rather they really have no need to. Maybe dark world enhanced the strength or makes it easier to use or something?
If im not mistaken in kris’ cyber room one of his searches are about learning magic and given what we know about the red headband kris kind of feels left out of the monster family. Could be that Toriel used it so Kris wouldn’t feel bad about not being able to use magic and just simply got used to it. On the other hand magic tricks could simply be a hobby or even a reference to the occult stuff
But on Berdly theory I have he is frozen in the dark world so he stays there in that "dream" So yeah I think he is dead in the dark world and stuck there for ever :/
Maybe this has something to do with how monsters "evolved" differently in undertale then in deltarune. We don't know how long ago the human monster war took place, but it could have happened so long ago that monsters just simply lost their determination "powers", yet also adapted and learned a new form of magic? Idk just a random theory
While I mostly agree with this, I just kind of interpreted what happened to Berdly to be him dying in the Dark World leaving his body in the Light World braindead. I don't think crossing between worlds is just as simple as going to a different location, otherwise Berdly would still be frozen. I think that somehow the worlds are on different planes, and his death in the Dark World simply left him braindead and permanently comatose when everyone "woke up".
About the Berdly in Snow grave, I think that Berly it's deteriorating, and rather than violently turning into dust like when a monster killed in a fight would, as a result of the Grave he has Fallen down Wich is that comatose like state that the monster enter when they are naturally dying, and in Wich the dying monsters were brought to the lab before being inyected with determination
With Berdly I think its a complicated matter. I have a theory that just like ice can prevent a human body from dissolving, it can also prevent monsters from turning to dust, and well Berdlys "counterpart" is frozen, we know things are a lil different in the light and dark worlds, how in the light world people turn into object they're based on, I think Berdly isnt technicallt death like any other death but its just his body being completely unresponsive forever. Its supported by the fact that if Berdly heavily damages his hand in the dark world, he cannot move it at all in the light world, although his hand doesnt seem damaged its just unresponsive
0:51 a monster in a house (can't see them cuz their in door) asks if it hurts to be made of blood... doesn't really sound like something that could bleed would ask lmao i thought it's a oversight
Another theory I’ve had for a while Deltarune is the timeline of Undertale where the monsters won the war, the humans went into that bunker or whatever, starting a massive underground civilization, with magic, and stuff of the sort. As the Monsters settled into the surface, they all gradually lost touch with their magic until they were no longer capable of using it, much like what happened in Undertale for the Humans. Kris is one of, if not the only human brave enough to leave the bunker, and did so at a young age, either out of fear, opression, bravery, or.. darker reasons. Toriel and Asgore then take Kris in, get divorced, and the rest is history.
1:27 queen also shows Noelle and susie's icon alongside kris's while saying "could not anyone make a dark fountain" Which would be impossible if monsters acted the same way they did in undertale considering to make a dark fountain you need determination AND If im not mistaken while berdly tries to open a dark fountain he talks about determination
What if the result of monsters not turning to dust and being less magically capable is due to their diet being “human food” instead of “monster food” like in undertale. Since human food is more solid it makes monsters who eat it physically more stable, preventing the turning to dust like in undertale. On the otherhand due to being unmagical, human food doesnt really do any favours to a monsters magical abilities, making it a less than ideal diet for those who wish to be able to cast powerful spells
I have a theory what if Everyman is a Doppelgänger he seems to have no major features in his appearance and he stole Asriel’s identity and named himself Ralsei also that would answer why he appears everywhere because he can change shapes
My opinion on the whole "You Need Determination To Make Fountains" deal is that specifically only humans can open Dark Fountains. Yeah, Queen theorizes that any Lightener could open one, but I don't think she understood the concept of only humans being able to contain determination without being negatively affected. And, considering the fact that Queen is the embodiment of the internet, and does not know that only humans can safety possess determination, it's safe to say that this universe does not know nearly as much about SOULs as Undertale's universe does. Or, maybe monsters can safely possess human SOUL traits and all this endless speculation I'm doing will be for nothing.
Dude we literally see beridly holding his axe charged with power saying he will open Fontaine and ralsie stopping beridly from opening more Fontaine if humans can only do that then there is no need ralsie to yell at beridly
If we go to library upstairs the book said about monster soul is unknown but Undertale monster they know their soul how it works I have theory that the one who discovered MAGIC is the humans cause I think it isn't the war change all rather the magic responsible of the war cause in Undertale, magic means there's war Deltarune,no magic means no war
Deltarune and Undertale's worlds are a lot like Ocarina of time/Majora's mask if you think about it. -Both are set in parallel universes of one another, populated with characters who fundamentally work the same way but are so different from the original characters of the game "original universe" that they function ever so differently. -This also gets into another similarities as we see characters in both games that did not have a "Ocarina/Undertale" counterpart in their retrospective games. (Kafei, Mayor Dotour and so on./Susie, Jockington, Berdly, Noelle and so on.) -Said universes are also set in "What if" universes. (Majora has no Goddess or Triforce which allows technology to advance in such a way that feels "Modern". Deltarune's world is kinda the opposites of Undertale (DT being more of a "Real world" design), mostly because the world of the underground is mixed between "Ancient", "Modern" and "Advanced". (Ruins, Snowdin, The Core). So yes, I do believe Monsters in this games universe *do bleed* because they're not designed genetically like the ones we met in Undertale.
after watching the video and reading the comments i feel undecided. to me it wouldn't make sense for Toby to completely overhaul how monster anatomy works, especially considering how there are characters that are both in Undertale and Deltarune and their anatomy being entirely different seems far fetched. Susie mentions "crushing our enemies to dust" as well which might mean she was just being her edgy self in both cases, and "everyone bleeds" seems to be a common phrase to describe people get hurt and it's normal. perhaps Toriel doesn't use fire magic because it might be considered voodoo in the somewhat mundane town they live, but in the Dark World it doesn't matter. all monsters seem to have a tiny fraction of determination that humans have, as is evident with Undyne. she and the amalgamates melt because they have *too* much determination in them, Undyne's determination grows as you kill her until she fully melts and dies. of course, monster souls' determination seems to be cosmically small compared to a human's soul, which can survive even after death for long extended amounts of time (Kris shows us that at the end of the chapters). as for Berdly, he seems to be in a "fallen down" state, which is basically a comatose state in which the monster is still alive but possibly on the verge of death and unable to do anything; they essentially become a vegetable. the thing with snowgrave and ice shock is that we don't know if it actually kills them; we get stronger, but we get stronger even if the enemy runs away. the unused bleeding sprites for Susie, however, seem to indicate that maybe Toby really was going to throw out the old anatomy of monsters and magic and replace it with something new. maybe he still will, but until then i'm undecided...
I think it is implied that monsters do not have blood, because in chapter 1, you can talk to a kid in an apartment who asks you what it's like to be full of blood.
I feel like I should mention the graveyard where someone mentions that they bury a hammer every year to mark an author’s presence in this world. That would imply that there’s nothing else beneath that tombstone.
In undertale monster can also stay as "fallen" for a few days before turning into dust, that's how Alphys made the amalgamates. And even in Deltarune it'a implied that they don't bury the dead, but instead bury an object that was important to the dead.
Another point is the Graveyard. In Undertale, Monsters were scattered across their favourite place/object. It's possible the graves are just monuments and not the actual monster's resting place (even Asriel had a memorial statue in Undertale), but this could imply their bodies don't disappear. EDIT: Also, Toriel's house has a toilet. Unless it's specifically for Kris, monsters may physically eat food instead of absorbing it too. Though to my rcollection, it is the only toilet we see. Except the giant one in the Dark World.
Pretty good theory! Just something about Berdly… I don’t think he is dead, he is only frozen, unable to move until broken out and free’d which might not happen since everyone in the Cyberworld has left to join the town over at the Dark World.
Something important you missed!! If you remember, you can go to a cemetery in the home town, left of the church (south of town). There, you will find four graves (the 3 amalgamates are burried here. Remember in undertale they were very sick/injured or dead and injected with determination during Alphys’ and probably sans’ determination experiments, prolonging their life in their disfigured bodies as a result. Gerson bloom, the author of the book ‘history of humans and monsters’ - a book found in the bookshelf next to Kris’ room in ch2 - is the turtle guy vendor from undertale. He is the father of the priest in deltarune). What’s curious here is that these deceased monsters were BURRIED like a human. Their physical bodies were burried. It’s extremely unlikely a bunch of dust was burried underground imo. If they had turned to dust, perhaps they would’ve been placed in urns. It seems as though the bodies of monsters in deltarune are not composed of magic unlike undertale. This is perhaps an explanation as to why the war between humans and monsters that led to their imprisonment underground never happened. Humans supposedly declared war out of fear of the monsters’ abilities to absorb human souls and become godlike. This likely means that humans never even learnt magic as monsters could not show them, and the concept of magic became purely fantasy as in our world. Also, this likely means that monsters can access the afterlife. Note that, in undertale, monster souls shatter almost immediately upon death unlike human souls. Because they can have an afterlife, they have a religion. However it seems they have their own religion as the priest makes reference to an angel as some sort deity (i think). Maybe a connection to the delta rune prophecy?
Berdly is frozen in the dark world, dark world gets removed, berdly is still frozen but his self is trapped in somewhere that doesn’t exist. Basically berdly is in a coma that cannot be fixed. So he is basically dead, but not dead. Also maybe some monsters bleed and others don’t.
I think monsters are still made of magic and have the potential to use magic. It's just that they never had a reason too. Magic is something you learn, the monsters in deltarune have hardly had any conflict and have likely forgotten it. As for birdly, there are 2 possibilities if monsters are the same as undertale. He is either a "fallen", a monster who has reached the end of their lifespan is known as this and will soon dust, or it could be that birdly's soul and body are still intact, but his mind has been destroyed, similar to how he no longer is able to use his arm if you do the queen fight incorrectly. Also, about dusting, it is likely monsters still dust when they die. In the graveyard the headstones are marked with that monsters favorite thing, in undertale we know that the dust of a monster is spread upon their favorite thing as a burial rite. Toby Fox doesn't seem to be changing many rules of undertale in this connected AU, but it still need to be seen
it could be that after you killed berdly in the dark world, he's just fallen down and just hasn't finished dying yet but there's also a graveyard full of monsters so they probably don't turn to dust
I was thinking abt this today, I had this theory that also ties to the one of "the war never happened". Basically, since there was no war monster rlly didn't have major reason to use magic (it's principal use seems to be in combat) so slowly they forgot how to use it, it's possible due to the properties they regained the ability. As for the rest, the bleeding Susie sprites were cut cuz of sth, it makes me think because of monsters not bleeding (these sprites could've been done by someone not aware). For Berldy, it can be a) He got frozen to death, that's why his body is not gone or b) death in the Dark world is different, and in the real world you'd just be in comma. For de Dt thing, it's possible Queen was mistaken and only lightners with strong dt (humans) can.
I think it's not that Toriel can't do magic, but because Dreemurs adopted a human child (who obviously can't do magic) they sacrificed things like using magic for making food etc, so Kris would naturally learn those things as if they lived with humans (after all, Toriel borrowed a book on how to raise a human many times) Also, the queen's dialogue doesn't necessarily point to monsters having Determination. In the book up the stairs in the library, it says that nobody knows what souls are for (possibly why humans didn't wage a war on monsters), which means that nobody did any research to discover Determination. Keep in mind that the first person in the world of Undertale to discover it was Alphys, after receiving a human soul from Asgore Queen is a computer, she only knows what's in the internet (example: she didn't know that making another fountain would destroy the world), if nobody knows anything about souls, nobody knows about Determination She was probably thinking about determination literally, as an emotion, rather than a substance in a body
I'm not sure if you still find this comment among many, but there is proof in Deltarune that monsters still turn into dust when they die. Go to Father Alvin in Chapter 2 and ask him about the Hammer. They needed a "symbolic" body for Gerson's funeral, meaning he did turn into dust.
Another point for this theory that monsters work differently and don’t have magic is the fact there is a graveyard, I don’t remember seeing one in Undertale ever, one of the logs in the lab says somethin bout giving the dust back to their families and I’m def just assuming this but why would you burry dust! An area for vases containing the dead would be much better than the labor needed for digging a grave and carving specific specialized headstones, ofc we do this in the real world even when cremation is an option but with Undertale monsters that step is skipped, so unless burying the dust of a monster is a religious or other tradition that’s yet to be explained I think there’s slowly more and more evidence to show how different these monsters are from Undertale’s rules Also the one who asks kris if it hurts to bleed could be the uneducated one, Susie, while not the best student, would probably know the difference between dusting and bleeding with how often she probably had fought. Plus just asking “hey, do u bleed??” Sounds just like what a kid might say lol I also like the idea that if monsters don’t bleed then maybe, in some way, this helps Kris’ connection to them? Not a theoretical connection but I think they want to make it clear that Kris probably wanted to BE a monster at some point, so maybe their mortality is just one of many potential similarities they latched on to (I’m not really going anywhere with this but I just think that’d make sense-)
What if during the war, the monsters and the humans accedently or on purpose, mixed with the humans, Kris is the only 100% human, that's why there out of place.
Ooh, this is super interesting! Although this is a very thought-provoking theory that could easily prove to be true, I don't know if we have quite enough evidence to say for sure yet - Toriel not using fire could be because she isn't trained in it. Since there's no war (yet) in deltarune, she might not be accustomed to using this. We even hear that the police are basically just symbolic due to how low the crime rate really is - I don't really think Susie's axe and magic really play into anything larger. The fact that she didn't realize she had an AXE kind of makes me think that's just dark world rules - As for Susie and the blood thing, I have to agree that, yeah, absolutely something is up here. I'm sure this'll come up in a later chapter. Sans also bleeds, but that's another can of worms entirely lol - I highly doubt anyone would know about determination and its effects on monsters here. Hell, monsters didn't know for centuries until large amounts were injected into them using the human souls. I don't exactly see that happening in this universe, and I also don't really see anyone like needing/being able to pull an Undyne either - The birdly thing is totally an anomaly, and I don't doubt he's dead, but isn't he just fallen down here? Monsters "fall down" before turning to dust in undertales universe UNLESS they are directly fatally wounded. Since berdly is encased in ice, and we don't get to see what happens after, as well as what happens with his arm in neutral makes me believe this is what happens here - Noel also mentions wishing she knew healing magic, but because she's playing an RPG at the time, could just be contextual Just to be clear, I'm not saying this is a horrible theory, or even that it's wrong (tbh, it might be totally right and I'm just biased towards wanting a magic system), I just think there are some points worth bringing up. Great video!
The way I'm readin the Berdly thing is basically the following:
In the neutral route, Berdly's arm is damaged. The damage is unclear, but given his reaction, there's a feeling of weakness and pain. Due to the way it occured, it's probably broken or missing in the dark world.
Now go to the light world. He clearly doesn't feel any pain and is surprised that his arm isn't working. It seems to indicate a lack of damage. His arm isn't broken, but he still can't use it. I forgot the medical term, but this is a prime example of a syndrome in which the brain believes there is something wrong with the body and will act accordingly. For example, being unable to see despite there not being any reason for it. This is what I'm pretty sure is going on.
Onto the Snowgrave route, this is what I think is happening. Basically Berdly's body is working normally and is very much alive, but his brain thinks he's dead and is behaving as such. He's basically fallen into a coma.
I absolutely love this theory. Thanks for bringing this into the discussion!
That... actually makes sense...
Neat
Either that or he is in a coma before death. In undertale, i dont remember where, it is explained that if a monster just happens to die then it first will fall into a comatose and then turn into dust. Given how berdly broke his arm in the dark world and in the light world he simply cant move his arm, we could suppose that berdly dying in the dark world would put him in said comatose before death in the light world, so he is about to turn into dust, just not right now
His arm in the dark world could also have nerve damage with it being broken.
For me it seems that *monsters can use magic, but it's regarded as a weird occult/ esoteric practice that isn't known very well.*
Here's some reasons why:
1. Catti in chapter 2 says that Kris and Noelle used to study occult together. *It's possible this "occult" might be magic?*
2. *Kris* is shown in chapter 2 to *have searched "how to use magic",* perhaps indicative that monsters can use magic, while humans cannot.
3. *Noelle might've used Snowgrave before,* possibly killing Dess in the process on accident. This is because Noelle can cast Snowgrave despite being _insistent_ that she doesn't know the spell, and that she's stated to stare in a trance-like state at the freezer in sans' store.
4. Berdly doesn't turn to dust because *Berdly is likely in a "Fallen Down" state* (or at least into a coma). This is because being murdered in the Dark World might be killing Berdly's mind, but it isn't directly murdering the body.
5. Personally I believe that all monsters have determination, it's just far less compared to humans. Boss monsters have a bit more than the average monster, but it's still miniscule compared to humans. *Still, you might need only a small amount of determination to make a dark fountain.*
6. I believe *dark fountains enhance existing abilities or expose latent abilities,* hence as to why monsters use magic in the dark world and Kris still can't use magic (but can use soul and determination based abilities, like turning their soul into a justice/ yellow soul, saving and loading(?) and using their soul to strengthen ally attacks)
7. A book in the librarby in chapter 2 states how the properties and purpose of souls aren't well known in this universe.
8. Treating magic as occult might line up more with Toby's vision, as the light world is shown to be a lot more mundane and similar to our real world, where people genuinely believe in spirits, religions, magic, etc. but it's not widely accepted as factual.
I might be a bit biased since I prefer the idea of both universes having the same mechanics, but I suppose we'll see in future chapters whether monsters have magic or not!
Pretty sure religion is widely accepted as factual since most people believe in religion...
I think monsters can’t create fountains, because ralsei is shown when it says “can’t anyone make a fountain with enough determination” and ralsei obviously can’t create a fountain
@@hall511 I mean, yeah, but there's no majority that agrees on a single interpretation of any religion. Not to mention, agnostic and atheistic viewpoints are becoming more common and acceptable. Popular religions isn't viewed to be as esoteric as, say, magic, but it's not to the level of it being a science.
To bring it back to Undertale/ Deltarune, you can see how monster magic is pretty much a science in Undertale given by how Gaster and Alphys study it as "royal scientists". Meanwhile, magic is relegated to esotericism in Deltarune, and even the prophecy is seen much more as a specific religious belief rather than the widely held belief that almost all monsters had in Undertale about the prophecy
I guess you can see religion as being believed in more than occult stuff, but less than hard science.
@@crimblr Wdym - Kris, Susie and Noelle are shown, not Ralsei?
Actually during the jevil, king, and spamton neo fights Kris's acts require tp to be used, meaning they can also use magic in the dark world. Though it's probably not as strong as they're friends magic.
I think it's actually more interesting if monsters do dust in this world. It makes the implications of Berdly's death so much worse because you didn't just outright kill him- you erased his mind, leaving only a braindead body in its place.
Outside of this, though, there is a state between dusting and life that's referenced several times in UT- Falling Down. It's even stated to resemble a coma, which is super fitting here.
Also, Susie mentions _"crushing their enemies into dust"_ directly before the team fight, so I think it's safe to say she's just bein' edgy as always. =>
Yeah, I took one look at birdly and assumed he was brain killed
Same - I can't imagine people finding Berdly's comatose body, doing some medical checkups on him and finding out that he's in a vegetative state or even soon to die from being fallen down.
Seems like more to make us feel guilty about doing the Snowgrave route
Maybe Berdly prematurely "fell down," he does show all the signs of it.
@@hollosou335 Also by the time Berdly’s body would be found he could be starving.
@@hollosou335 monsters only fall down when they are really old, not when they get attacked.
Noelle does say something about being able to use healing magic, in a reference to her dad's illness, in the dark world, that implies is not a thing in the light world, or atleast not as good, specially considering they have a hospital where people get treatment instead of just getting healed with magic. The graveyard is another thing that may point to monsters being different in deltarune, burying ashes is a thing, but usually you don't think about that when we're talking about dust remains, but the tombstones could also just be symbolic.
Who knows
I believe in Undertale the library specifically mentions that when a monster dies, their ashes are spread on something they liked. So at the very least the funeral tradition here is different, if not the entire death process. And yeah the Noelle line pretty much confirms that monsters can't used magic, since she would have said "too bad magic isn't as effective in the real world" or some variation of that if magic was possible.
That said, just because monsters can't use magic doesn't necessarely mean they aren't made out of magic. Maybe this is a reality where monsters and humans never went to war, so magic was never developed as a weapon and knowledge of it didn't spread in monster society.
I'm pretty sure that the tombstones aren't symbolic and that the corpses of monsters are buried below them. According to Arthur (or whatever the name of Gerson's son was), his hammer was buried with him. So that implies that yes, he is there. Him being dust or a whole corpse tho is up for debate
@@JadeJuno If you backtrack to the mouse cheese maze after having Noelle be able to use Snowgrave, if you use it on the mice, instead of the monsters running away, they fade away into dust before cutting off of the screen.
@@spicybtw7251 Darkeners are not really monsters in the species sense besides that fact Darkeners are items or based on things in the light world, if I remember correctly they are also red so that probably means it is not linked to that the fact the darkener died but instead supposed to be used for a different spell. Also unless the darkeners that froze are still alive while frozen, they should have turned to dust. Unless you have a valid answer to why they didn’t freeze like a certain lightener then this the end.
@@spicybtw7251 they turn red so its moreso being frozen into blood shards or something
Cool theory, but I think snowgrave berdly could be like... fallen down? Like in Undertale. He is in a state at the height of death, but he is only a sleeping. And, in Undertale, humans can also use magic, they sealed monsters with magic, with seven wizards. so maybe in this world the monsters It costs them much more than humans to use magic, they would have to be wizards, and humans could easily use magic, but not Kris, because they still a bit small.
Thats an interesting point
Theory about those wizards, I think they got their powers from killing boss monsters like Asgore during the war, which is how most monsters know that Asgore's soul can be taken by a human. This could also be the reason that Asgore and Toriel seem to be the last of their kind, because targeting the boss monsters would not only remove powerful fighters, but bolster the humans' own ranks.
We don't know how Dark Worlds really work. Maybe it's only your consciousness that goes into the dark world, and the body stays behind in either stasis or just plain sleep. Characters do seem to wonder if the dark world is a dream a whole lot. And that would explain Berdly -- he didn't die, just his consciousness did. His body was left in some sort of vegetative state.
@@bradleyadams5252 Good point. Chara and Asriel did share a body for a while, as Asriel explains at the end of True Pacifist. Maybe a human and monster sharing a human body can use magic, and the human's determination is potent enough to maintain full control, essentially turning the monster soul into a magical battery.
Or like many stuff in history the way to cast magic has been lost to humans or never found the way to use for none battlefield purposes.
Another thing hinting towards monsters bleeding is when Lancer says he is going to put your blood in a bucket. If monsters don’t bleed Susie would have definitely pointed that out.
that's a really good point
I don't think she actually would though - After that scene, he immediately asks Susie if he was getting scarier, and she tries her best to try to cheer him up. Pointing out logical flaws in his display wouldn't really be "cheering on lancer", though.
the child in one of the brick buildings says "Does it hurt to be made of blood?" so i assume monsters dont have blood
well it is lancer i just think he thinks all lighteners bleed
@@eyitsaperson It could be that human bodies simply contain way more blood and the kid was just misunderstanding
Determination doesn't make monsters melt. Having a LOT of determination makes them melt. Humans can handle more than they can. Berdly being dead in one world but not awake in another is yet to be explored, it's hard to say. I do think the fire magic usage and lack of magic in general in the overworld is very strange, however.
I think the reason why is that many things get lost to time and magic is one of the in deltarune in the modern day.
@@EdgeLie I doubt that's the case, magic was still used in undertale despite having electronics, so we know they were set in "modern" times
I was watching your deltarune 2 iceberg and heard you talk about how Ralsei doesn't turn to stone. I think it's because of his fountain. Ralsei's dark world fountain warps itself to fit with people from the other dark worlds. I believe Ralsei has the ability to atune to other fountains. Besides, we know that the darkners and their fountain are linked (cyber world fountain creating cyber enimies and NPCs, and not having things that wouldn't fit in the cyber world) so Ralsei may have that ability
I believe the part about why Ralsei doesn’t turn to stone but I think it’s pretty clear that the dark world turns inanimate objects into living beings.
Starwalker doesn't get turned to stone.
So darkners can go other fountains, even if there are others that "don't belong"
@@mprogamerx191 but starwalker is pretty much a joke
@@mprogamerx191 he doesn't leave our pocket. We out see them turn if they leave our pocket. Also Ralsei says that the cyber world fountain isn't compatible with lancer and Ruxles Kard. It's also probably just because he was a joke and making a cutscene to show him turn into stone wouldn't really impact anything. Oh no starwalker is stone! Who wants to go see Spamton?
Starwalker can leave your pocket in one scene and even if its just to be funny its still what it is
Nice theory! An explanation for Toriel's absence of fire magic use is that the Deltarune timeline may have caused her to never have to learn fire magic in order to fight, so she doesn't cook with it either
She could also be choosing to not use fire magic since it would remind Kris that they can't use magic and make them sad.
I may be remembering wrong, but isn't it said in Undertale that monsters don't get sick? In Deltarune however, they do, and they have a whole hospital to deal with that.
The "doesn't it hurt to be made out of blood" could imply that there's some misconceptions on how human anatomy works, and not that mosnters don't have blood, it could be that monsters believe the "humans are 70% water" means "humans are mostly skin bags of blood".
However, they can get sick now
They're on the surface. They adapt to human enviornments like food and culture and start to become able to bleed (ex: glitchtale)
And there can be diseases in blood, which can yes make you sick if that idnt obvious.
@@TehRealJeje sorry, but as said by the other comment, Glitchtale isn't really official...
I know, i know
ik GT isnt canon
however, monsters may have adapted to the enviornment made by humans humans (again, 2nd time, they were on the surface before) and can get sick
As a theory, not a gt belief this time. its unknown if monsters can bleed. They may get sick sure, but they cant bleed
@@TehRealJeje it's still a possibility, but well... Who knows what Toby's thinking untill he reveals it, right? The waiting game always rewards us with the *best* of theory fuel for Toby's games...
1:33 I think that is more than implied, cause after the battle against the robot queen, Berdly is shown infusing his halberd with determination with the intention to sink it into the ground to create a new dark fountain, but he is stopped by Ralsei, whom then informes everybody about the roaring.
If monsters couldn’t use determination, there would be no danger, Ralsei wouldn’t have needed to shout at Berdly for him to stop, because if Berdly couldn’t use determination the attempt would simply fail.
Ralsei's panicked reaction confirms it to me.
Tbf tho, Ralsei may not know that monsters don't have determination. And that "infusing his halberd with determination" moment might just be him charging his halberd with magic thinking it would work? _Not sure about that-_
This is a good point. We'll have to wait and see!
@@JadeJuno at the same time, at least for me, Ralsei seems to know so much about all of this prophecy, The Roaring and stuff, that it'd be weird if he didn't know that some lightners can't make fountains
Ralsei was more worried about the roaring, otherwise he would have explicitly told Berdly he can't use determination
@@JadeJuno the queen says any lightener can make one and ralsei says any lightener can close one
I'm leaning towards oversight on the "Everyone bleeds" thing. It's a common phrase, and it fits Susie's personality which is probably why Toby gave it to her without considering it might not make sense for a monster.
Also for Toriel teaching Susie how to use the stove, it's not like Susie knows fire magic. She would need to know how to use the stone itself to cook, even if it's not what Toriel typically does.
i think that the stovetop would probably be cleaner if toriel used fire magic. it is in undertale, but in deltarune, the stovetop is caked in batter.
exactly.
Or maybe the kid doesnt know its made of blood
the *stone*
Or maybe everyone does bleed, and in the end of Deltarune, we see either all of reality turn into Undertale's reality, or we see Sans jump from Deltarune to Undertale because Sans is the only monster in Undertale to bleed, so he has to be from this reality
Me: still, something tells me that there's something off...
*Catti: I thought Noelle some defense spells.*
Me: oh, That what it is.
It could be Occoult-like magic, and not actually real.
@@Pikrioling
Really ?
Let's, like teach you to defend yourself and stuff with this hella awesome spell I found online! Where did I find it? Well the internet's down so it wouldn't matter if I told ya. Now do you want to like learn the spell or what?
@@Pikrioling Personally, I think it's genuine magic being treated more as esoteric/ occulty stuff.
Kris is shown to have searched up "how to use magic", and since Catti says she studied occult with both Noelle and Kris, it's possible Kris wanted to use magic just like them.
Noelle also might've used Snowgrave once before (perhaps in a traumatic incident?), hence as to why she's *extremely* insistent on not knowing that spell unlike any other monster spell used in the dark world. (An NPC in sans' shop also states that Noelle stares at the freezer sometimes, possibly repressing her trauma of using that spell)
That was Catti
Extra point:
"And everything can be healed with a little spell"
- Noelle
So while this could mean no HEALING magic exists, I feel that is more like there isnt any magic at all
Well, there is a graveyard with dead monsters in it. So I assume that they don’t get buried as dust but as dead bodies
the graveyard has items buried in it that represent the people the graves are for
@@aobunau yeah that’s how funerals worked back in undertale too and how asriel became a flower
1) Susie saying everybody bleeds is her trying to scare Lancer.
2) Toriel doesn't use magic because she (and monsters) doesn't have a need for it.
3) Berdly not turning to dust could just be that he's fallen down and not dead.
abt point 2, they have a lot of needs for it, for example, the stove thing that the video literally uses as its example. And noelle even uses the fact that the dark world has magic and spells implying that magic is exclusive to the dark world. And again, susie-axe thing the video points out. And unused susie bleeding sprite in the files heavily implies that monster are completely different from undertale
Btw not even darkners die in dust, in snowgrave if you kill mause from the mause maze with snowgrave they will just turn red and die. Not even run away, they die.
@@upseguest they break apart though so pretty close
they made a whole movie about point 2 :P
1) Susie was already friends with Lancer by that time so i don't think she would lie to him
2) Why would people need a hospital in the light world if they could just use healing magic?
3) Idk if Berdly's dead or just frozen in the dark world but either way he's dead in the light world since you can't go back to the cyber world to unfreeze him
I remembered that in Undertale, humans can use magic because in the beginning the humans sealed the monsters underground. And in the future of UT, it appears humans don't use magic anymore because of the convenience of technology and there's no monster threat anymore.
So I think in the Deltarune world, monsters has forgotten how to use magic because of technology and peace, and the humans are the ones who are sealed in the underground which is the opposite of Undertale.
I think it’s less so that monsters can’t use magic and more that magic-use in this world is heavily associated with the occult (as said by Catti in ch.2). And in town such as Hometown where its religion is quite prevalent throughout, it makes sense that they mostly stray away from magic. *Especially* Toriel
On Berdly, I think he’s not quite “dead” yet, but rather he has fallen down and it’s only a matter of days till he turns into dust.
Edit: Also, if monsters couldn’t use magic, then why is Kris searching up how to use it?
maybe he was searching for some magic tricks, like, with cards or something else
Y'know... I've always interpreted Kris's search as them wanting to learn magic after their first Dark World adventure, but thinking back now, that doesn't seem to make much sense
Kris might just be into the occult.
Kris maybe wants to use magic to transform themselves into a real monster.
Berdly's body - Berdly is just fallen down and hasn't died yet.
Magic - no real need for magic.
Also the whole thing why didn't they fight Lancer when they first encountered him is because Lancer was on an unreachable platform so running was the best option.
> no real need for magic
Well, UT Toriel didn't need to use fire magic to cook her pie, yet she did. And healing magic existed in Undertale, so why wouldn't they use it to heal Noelle's dad?
I prefer to think that Berdly is braindead, but his body still lives. Just to make you feel worse about Snowgrave
@@workinprogress9793 I mean in either case (even in the normal route) your statement would be correct lol-
@@JadeJuno dude just absolutely murdered Berdly, lol
@@JadeJuno in undertale, there was a war between humans and monsters, so learning some fire magic was very useful, at least for self defence.
If monsters are somewhat the same as humans in Deltarune, this could also mean monsters can’t absorb human souls like they can in Undertale.
Monsters being able to absorb human souls in Undertale is what started the war.
If they can’t in Deltarune, that would mean they would be no war, which explains why both humans and monsters live on the surface.
I like to think the Light world is completely devoid of magic, the town is a realistic place in every way except for monsters existing.
It's likely that since monsters weren't casted underground, magic didn't become a necessity, and over time its existence was completely forgotten.
We should probably assume the Undertale and Deltarune universes have completely different rules, and just because something is true in Undertale it doesn't mean the same will also be true for Deltarune.
Catty talks about teaching Noelle defensive spells
Edit:Catti, not Catty
@@user-vm9xz4kv9z Catty talks about occultism basically in the same sentence, so it probably isn't *magic* spells. Noelle, however, was talking about that having magic in real world would be cool
@@rove8620 Oh wait, that was Catti, not Catty...
@@rove8620 if they're not magic, what kind of spells are they?
@@user-vm9xz4kv9z occult spells, duh. The one's that quiet gothlike girl in school class would do. You know, light the candles chant something 3 times and stuff
Somethin' I thought of that nobody else seems to consider: Could it be that the bunny monster that said: "does it hurt to be made of blood" might just not be made of blood?
Like really consider that. Monsters come in a lot of different shapes and sizes, so they don't need to be built the same. Here's an example: While a lot of monsters have skin, there are plenty of examples such as Sans and Undyne, (Scales or just no skin at all) GRANTED, that's *skin* and not *blood,* so idk I'm just spit balling ideas here.
Yeah napstablook probably wouldn’t bleed either. He’s a ghost.
Ok, I think instead of Susie, the bunny is not so educaded since they seem to be much younger than her. Since there is a human in town their parents probably gave them a simplified explination of the differences between humans and monsters.
With Berdly not turning into dust, I am not sure if he will because I forgot if the bodys of the monsters are buried or their dust.
What I am very sure about is that Berdly did not turn into dust right away because his body was not damaged enough. It is just completely frozen in an icecube but still in all pieces. I think you have to destroy at least some part of a monster's body in order to turn them into dust right away. Remember monsters that fell down naturally also take a few days to turn into dust which is why Alphys thought she could get the souls of the monsters.
Also Noelle straight up says she wishes she had healing magic to heal her dad, so I think this theory checks out.
my take: berdly isn’t technically dead, he’s just frozen in the dark world, but is actually dead in that state and just doesn’t turn into dust since he’s frozen and thus well-preserved
Noelle at the end of chapter 2 says "I wish I knew magic in real life so I could heal you ( her father)."
Also in the dark world Noelle also points out that food in dark world heals....
I strongly disagree.
Toriel has no reason to use magic with Kris around, since they're human. And Susie simply can't use fire magic, or at least not that Toriel is sure of. She wants to show susie how to actually bake, so why would she skip the process by just using magic?
Another thing; graveyards are mentioned to have items buried in them, rather than coffins. This is because these objects are the monster's favourite item from when they used to live. This explains the need for graveyards.
I think Susie is just an outlier. No other monster actually pays mention to human anatomy, and Susie is not only violent, but knows of things like human burial, bleeding, etc. She might as well think all monsters are human-like or is just more educated on humans.
There's also the thing that, in DR, humans and monsters live seemingly alongside eachother. In UT, they're actually decades behind in terms of technology and only barely starting to use electricity alongside magic. So, to me at least, it seems like in DR, magic just went into obscurity. It needn't be used anymore, because technology is easier and less energy-consuming.
Also... would be confusing as hell for Toby to just change the way monsters work.
The change could be confusing, sure. But UT and DR are not exactly the same worlds, and not exactly fully connected between each other. Also, Noelle is implied that there's no magic
@@rove8620 how has she?
Also, keep in mind the fundamentals are still the same. The characters are actually quite alike, except for their circumstances.
@@Akogiri Noelle wants to learn magic so that she can heal her dad, and Catti talks about researching the "occult" with Kris. Also I don't think Kris being around would stop Toriel from using fire magic, considering she bakes Frisk a pie with magic in UT. I think it's likely that monsters just aren't aware of / learned in magic in this universe, whereas it's normal in UT
@Akogiri And Noelle along with Berdly say that’s the dark work is the strange place and can solve everything with magic
Edit: I mean Noelle and Susie :p
@@hedwyn8803 as I said, monsters are more "up to date" or "civilised" in this timeline and that might as well be the answer to anything.
Also, well, again, Kris is Toriel's child. She wouldn't want to make them feel alienated and would probably rather use technology around them instead of actual, physical magic.
And, to be fair, if Kris didn't know monsters use magic, I don't think the browser search about human magic in their cell in queen's mansion would be there. It just seems like such an obvious nod to the knowledge we have from UT
Yknow, have the anatomy worked exactly the same, it would be terrifying if in Chapter 3, in a save file with the Snowgrave route, it wouldve mentioned something about dust being present inside the closet of the computer lab.
I interpreted it this way: since monsters didnt loose war and never had to live underground, natural technology progress (most tech in undertale was coming from human junk) made it so they no longer need to rely on magic so much, so as time progressed, knowledge of spells and magic as such mostly got lost in time.
Monsters still are, indeed magical and they still know that. Given that at some point Kris did a "how to use magic" search, and it wasnt in between chapter 1 and 2, when they recently discovered dark world, since internet was down at that point.
A lot of people reason that Berdly is in "fallen down" state.
I think Berdly had just "Fallen Down", which is when a monster is dying (this is found in a book in the librabbry in Undertale)
I'm pretty sure Berdly "fell down" as he got frozen in the Darkworld.
In Undertale there where also Monsters that "fall down" before they die. It's some sort of comatose status. Alphys used the nearly Dead Monsters to experiment with Determination. But instead of turning to dust, they came back to live before melting anyways.
But yeah I'm pretty sure Berdly has fallen down at this point. If he'll turn to dust later, that's a question for the next chapter
I prefer to view Deltarune as a more realistic approach to the universe, it would be hilarious if Undertale was a story made up by Kris themselves, but I'm fairly sure that's not the case. I just really love the idea.
Anyway, just like you said, even the topics and characters appear to be more mature and serious, every single one has some sort of problem they deal with. Maybe Deltarune is just a more down to Earth approach where magic isn't a thing, but at the same time we have Dark Worlds so that throws it out of the window... I genuinely have no idea. I'd prefer the story of Deltarune to be completely "normal" because that's something that's very rarely used.
also the closet dialogue states its big enough to fit a body inside, but if monsters evaporated into dust, you wouldnt need to hide a body, unless it was referring to another human, but we havent seen a single one.
I love how much this game is making us think.
It's possible to use snowgrave during the "cheese labyrinth" room, the mouse seem to turn into red dust
1:50 not much of an undertale lore consumer myself, but theres a term called "fallen down". its a comatose like state that monsters enter shortly before death. considering that berdly doesnt turn to dust in the dark world, hes likely just fallen down and turns to dust sometime after we leave. just food for thought
I'm quite sure this was obvious.
Only thing is an object is burried in the graveyard, though this might just be a cultural thing monsters do in deltarune, cremate the person and bury them with the object they loved the most.
Now here's an interesting theory. If we assume that Sans is the same monster in both Undertale and Deltarune then Susie saying "Everyone bleeds" (also assuming that wasn't an oversight by Toby) that could explain Sans bleeding when you kill him in the Genocide route.
If we assume monsters do bleed in this universe and we take the newer sans theory that he’s a darkener or the Undertale sans is actually from Deltarune, it would also explain why he bleeds when he gets killed in the genocide route of the game but nobody else does when they get stabbed or killed.
this is a different universe than undertale, so you can't automatically assume they can't use magic when toriel hasn't been ever seen using fire magic in deltarune
I agree with the idea of Dealtarune monsters not dusting. My logic behind backing that up is the existence of a hospital and Rudy being in the hospital throughout both chapters. The hospital system implies that monsters can "recover from dying" in a way since that's what hospitals do. And we know these hospitals can make monsters feel better since Rudy is still there in Chapter 2. If he wasn't, then the claim that it just slows the dying process could be made since the second room has different NPCs in it. And Rudy also comments that he's feeling better to the point that he's considering going to Church - something a dusting monster would not consider doing in their final moments
Monsters seem to turning into dust (or anything else) in this universe too. There is something said about Gerson by monster being on his grave, that there was only his hammer buried there because "obviously" nothing else left after him.
Maybe this is just an evolution thing? Since war was over, the magic naturally dissipated to make way for... Determination (?)
The monsters essentially became the "humans" now didn't they? They weren't as fragile but they sure also ain't as powerful in Undertale.
In the conversation with her dad noelle says that she wishes she knew healing magoc, which implies that it exists in the light world since she dismissed the dark world as a dream.
Additionally in the files of undertale we learn of "falling down" which is basically the paralysis of monsters caused by either age or illness. It possible berdly is in this state because of the fact that injuries do seem to carry over back to the light world (see neutral route). A quote from the old show mash explains this best: "Hes already dead his heart just doesnt know its time to stop beating"
As for bleeding, couldnt tell ya. Its possible that since there are skeletons that they have more than "flesh" and have some sort of bone structure also made of magic. And bones themselves contain some blood cells to allow transportation of calcium in and out of bones, which is why sans bled. Weather or not its Blood-Blood is up for debate of course, but this should explain everything
About the stove thing: I may be reading it wrong, but using normal fire or magic fire isn't gonna help if the cinnamon batter cake starts overflowing out of the recipient and falls on the stove, so I think what the "There's some cinnamon batter caked on the stovetop" line implies, is either that Toriel messed at least one of the pies and has yet to clean the stovetop OR, that Kris has tried to make a pie and they were the ones to mess up. As for Toriel teaching Susie how to use a stove, is not like everyone can use fire magic to cook, so gotta her how to use it properly.
Hey. I know this isnt the video, but your undertale and deltarune iceberg videos were some of the best videos i ever saw in my life, and is part of the reason why i came back to the undertale comunity, thank so much for it!
btw im goin to see this video later
Toby: Deltarune is no way the same in Undertale, it is a different universe
Fandom: _NO WEI THAT'S TRUE_
**searches for hours in the game's code**
**mystery hunting**
**theories**
**overanalyzing**
_OMG ITS TRUE_
Toby: *visible confusion*
Noelle flat out sais that how nice it would be If she could use healing magic IRL. I really don't think we need much more than that
Nah, it’s really
maybe berdly has just "fallen down"- he'll be dead soon, snowgrave didnt kill him outright because there's a layer of seperation between the dark and light worlds. but hes down, and stopped moving...
I have to say this about this theory of magic. Kris wants to be a monster or more like a monster to fit in. Kris had a horned headband at one point and most importantly, searched on how to use magic.
This implies that magic exists in deltarune and not as stage magic. Why do I think that? If it was stage magic it would have been a hobby for Kris, but it is proven that the hobby is piano. The nurse mentions Kris normally plays beautifully and you see that Kris's browser room in chapter 2 shows that paino tutorial was searched, this is where we see a search result for magic.
There has been no inclination that Kris does stage tricks so the magic search mustve been an attempt to fit in.
As for Toriel not knowing magic 2 things could be happening. 1. She doesn't want to remind Kris of not being able to use magic so she refrains from doing so. 2. She was not apart of the war, the war seems to end before her time and the most common use of magic we have seen in both games is combat, the fire cooking is the only instance I remember of non violent magic (that isn't green) in Undertale.
This was explicit through the second chapter, I didn't thought that ppl would need a whole video do undertand it
I think Berdly is alive and just knocked out, mostly because I think it'd be a LOT of work for Toby to keep throwing out twists like that when there's still 5 more chapters coming. It'd be a lot to do when planning how different routes work with and without the bird boy
I have a feeling they can to some capacity but don't rely on it as much as they did in Undertale. It's almost like magic was once prevalent but has fallen out of favor and has become slightly more occult based on the research Carti says she and Kris did together.
When berdly didn't turn to dust I just assumed he must've fallen down. I didn't consider monsters might just not be made out of magic.
While I agree with monsters in Deltarune not being able to cast spells, I don't think that it means thier biology is substantially changed, more that it's a skill nobody learns.
Because there was never a human-monster war in Deltarune, I don't think monsters would have a reason to do something so dangerous - even the humans in Undertale have a lot more weapons, like the Empty Gun, probably because of the history of all the warfare.
The biggest flaw in the whole "monster biology is different" argument is the fact that we actually see the graveyard in Deltarune, and we're told that the monster funerals are exactly the same as in Undertale - the monster's dust is spread on thier favorite object and they bury it. If monsters had more physical substance, they would just bury the body.
I think Berdly's death is clearly an example of a monster "falling down", or going into a coma before death - this happens because he doesn't die because of a physical assault, but rather he was "spiritually" attacked in the Dark World, which is physically closer to dying of illness or old age than being straight-up murdered.
in undertale, in some books, magic was used as a way for monsters to express themselves, showing each others magic and stuff
@@ohwoah4324 You're right! I think monsters still do use magic, but more along the lines of Shyren or perhaps Catti's occult stuff. Something like Toriel's fire magic would probably be more of a "wartime" magic use.
Kris still considers his pencil as a weapon, but it's a far cry from empty gun.
I noticed that magic seems to be consistent between monsters. By that I mean that there seems to be certain Types of magic being used. One of them being weapons being made with or summoned with magic. (Examples being Asgore Undyne and Berdly) And of coarse there are projectile attacks.
I believe this is important because obviously I doubt berdly would be able to do this without something altering magic. Which is why I think the dark world enhances magic. I don’t think that monsters can’t use magic rather they really have no need to. Maybe dark world enhanced the strength or makes it easier to use or something?
If im not mistaken in kris’ cyber room one of his searches are about learning magic and given what we know about the red headband kris kind of feels left out of the monster family. Could be that Toriel used it so Kris wouldn’t feel bad about not being able to use magic and just simply got used to it. On the other hand magic tricks could simply be a hobby or even a reference to the occult stuff
But on Berdly theory I have he is frozen in the dark world so he stays there in that "dream"
So yeah I think he is dead in the dark world and stuck there for ever :/
Maybe this has something to do with how monsters "evolved" differently in undertale then in deltarune. We don't know how long ago the human monster war took place, but it could have happened so long ago that monsters just simply lost their determination "powers", yet also adapted and learned a new form of magic? Idk just a random theory
While I mostly agree with this, I just kind of interpreted what happened to Berdly to be him dying in the Dark World leaving his body in the Light World braindead. I don't think crossing between worlds is just as simple as going to a different location, otherwise Berdly would still be frozen. I think that somehow the worlds are on different planes, and his death in the Dark World simply left him braindead and permanently comatose when everyone "woke up".
About the Berdly in Snow grave, I think that Berly it's deteriorating, and rather than violently turning into dust like when a monster killed in a fight would, as a result of the Grave he has Fallen down Wich is that comatose like state that the monster enter when they are naturally dying, and in Wich the dying monsters were brought to the lab before being inyected with determination
The real question is, why would UT Toriel install a stove she would never use?
With Berdly I think its a complicated matter. I have a theory that just like ice can prevent a human body from dissolving, it can also prevent monsters from turning to dust, and well Berdlys "counterpart" is frozen, we know things are a lil different in the light and dark worlds, how in the light world people turn into object they're based on, I think Berdly isnt technicallt death like any other death but its just his body being completely unresponsive forever. Its supported by the fact that if Berdly heavily damages his hand in the dark world, he cannot move it at all in the light world, although his hand doesnt seem damaged its just unresponsive
Tbh it doesn’t feel the same without you taking. I’ll still watch it.
0:51
a monster in a house (can't see them cuz their in door) asks if it hurts to be made of blood...
doesn't really sound like something that could bleed would ask lmao
i thought it's a oversight
Another theory I’ve had for a while
Deltarune is the timeline of Undertale where the monsters won the war, the humans went into that bunker or whatever, starting a massive underground civilization, with magic, and stuff of the sort. As the Monsters settled into the surface, they all gradually lost touch with their magic until they were no longer capable of using it, much like what happened in Undertale for the Humans. Kris is one of, if not the only human brave enough to leave the bunker, and did so at a young age, either out of fear, opression, bravery, or.. darker reasons. Toriel and Asgore then take Kris in, get divorced, and the rest is history.
1:27 queen also shows Noelle and susie's icon alongside kris's while saying "could not anyone make a dark fountain"
Which would be impossible if monsters acted the same way they did in undertale considering to make a dark fountain you need determination
AND
If im not mistaken while berdly tries to open a dark fountain he talks about determination
What if the result of monsters not turning to dust and being less magically capable is due to their diet being “human food” instead of “monster food” like in undertale.
Since human food is more solid it makes monsters who eat it physically more stable, preventing the turning to dust like in undertale. On the otherhand due to being unmagical, human food doesnt really do any favours to a monsters magical abilities, making it a less than ideal diet for those who wish to be able to cast powerful spells
I have a theory what if Everyman is a Doppelgänger he seems to have no major features in his appearance and he stole Asriel’s identity and named himself Ralsei also that would answer why he appears everywhere because he can change shapes
My opinion on the whole "You Need Determination To Make Fountains" deal is that specifically only humans can open Dark Fountains. Yeah, Queen theorizes that any Lightener could open one, but I don't think she understood the concept of only humans being able to contain determination without being negatively affected.
And, considering the fact that Queen is the embodiment of the internet, and does not know that only humans can safety possess determination, it's safe to say that this universe does not know nearly as much about SOULs as Undertale's universe does.
Or, maybe monsters can safely possess human SOUL traits and all this endless speculation I'm doing will be for nothing.
Dude we literally see beridly holding his axe charged with power saying he will open Fontaine and ralsie stopping beridly from opening more Fontaine if humans can only do that then there is no need ralsie to yell at beridly
If we go to library upstairs the book said about monster soul is unknown but Undertale monster they know their soul how it works I have theory that the one who discovered MAGIC is the humans cause I think it isn't the war change all rather the magic responsible of the war cause in
Undertale, magic means there's war
Deltarune,no magic means no war
Deltarune and Undertale's worlds are a lot like Ocarina of time/Majora's mask if you think about it.
-Both are set in parallel universes of one another, populated with characters who fundamentally work the same way but are so different from the original characters of the game "original universe" that they function ever so differently.
-This also gets into another similarities as we see characters in both games that did not have a "Ocarina/Undertale" counterpart in their retrospective games. (Kafei, Mayor Dotour and so on./Susie, Jockington, Berdly, Noelle and so on.)
-Said universes are also set in "What if" universes. (Majora has no Goddess or Triforce which allows technology to advance in such a way that feels "Modern". Deltarune's world is kinda the opposites of Undertale (DT being more of a "Real world" design), mostly because the world of the underground is mixed between "Ancient", "Modern" and "Advanced". (Ruins, Snowdin, The Core).
So yes, I do believe Monsters in this games universe *do bleed* because they're not designed genetically like the ones we met in Undertale.
after watching the video and reading the comments i feel undecided. to me it wouldn't make sense for Toby to completely overhaul how monster anatomy works, especially considering how there are characters that are both in Undertale and Deltarune and their anatomy being entirely different seems far fetched.
Susie mentions "crushing our enemies to dust" as well which might mean she was just being her edgy self in both cases, and "everyone bleeds" seems to be a common phrase to describe people get hurt and it's normal.
perhaps Toriel doesn't use fire magic because it might be considered voodoo in the somewhat mundane town they live, but in the Dark World it doesn't matter.
all monsters seem to have a tiny fraction of determination that humans have, as is evident with Undyne. she and the amalgamates melt because they have *too* much determination in them, Undyne's determination grows as you kill her until she fully melts and dies. of course, monster souls' determination seems to be cosmically small compared to a human's soul, which can survive even after death for long extended amounts of time (Kris shows us that at the end of the chapters).
as for Berdly, he seems to be in a "fallen down" state, which is basically a comatose state in which the monster is still alive but possibly on the verge of death and unable to do anything; they essentially become a vegetable. the thing with snowgrave and ice shock is that we don't know if it actually kills them; we get stronger, but we get stronger even if the enemy runs away.
the unused bleeding sprites for Susie, however, seem to indicate that maybe Toby really was going to throw out the old anatomy of monsters and magic and replace it with something new. maybe he still will, but until then i'm undecided...
I think it is implied that monsters do not have blood, because in chapter 1, you can talk to a kid in an apartment who asks you what it's like to be full of blood.
I love theory video without voice over like this. Keep it up dude
I feel like I should mention the graveyard where someone mentions that they bury a hammer every year to mark an author’s presence in this world. That would imply that there’s nothing else beneath that tombstone.
I don't remember anything about burying a hammer every year. Gerson's hammer (singular) was buried with him, as Alvin tells us
I think berdly is fallen down, it seems like he may not have sustained actual physical damage
In undertale monster can also stay as "fallen" for a few days before turning into dust, that's how Alphys made the amalgamates. And even in Deltarune it'a implied that they don't bury the dead, but instead bury an object that was important to the dead.
Another point is the Graveyard. In Undertale, Monsters were scattered across their favourite place/object. It's possible the graves are just monuments and not the actual monster's resting place (even Asriel had a memorial statue in Undertale), but this could imply their bodies don't disappear.
EDIT: Also, Toriel's house has a toilet. Unless it's specifically for Kris, monsters may physically eat food instead of absorbing it too. Though to my rcollection, it is the only toilet we see. Except the giant one in the Dark World.
berdly's consciousness got frozen in the dark world, his body is ok
That would explain the graves too man, it does seem odd that there’s graves
I adore this theory!!! I never thought about this before but it makes a lot of sense
Pretty good theory! Just something about Berdly…
I don’t think he is dead, he is only frozen, unable to move until broken out and free’d which might not happen since everyone in the Cyberworld has left to join the town over at the Dark World.
I doubt that because snowgrave is specifically “fatal” which leaves VERY little room for doubt for whether berdly is dead or not
Its prettey evident that the docotomy between humans and monsters is similar to the lightners and darkners one
Something important you missed!!
If you remember, you can go to a cemetery in the home town, left of the church (south of town).
There, you will find four graves (the 3 amalgamates are burried here. Remember in undertale they were very sick/injured or dead and injected with determination during Alphys’ and probably sans’ determination experiments, prolonging their life in their disfigured bodies as a result. Gerson bloom, the author of the book ‘history of humans and monsters’ - a book found in the bookshelf next to Kris’ room in ch2 - is the turtle guy vendor from undertale. He is the father of the priest in deltarune).
What’s curious here is that these deceased monsters were BURRIED like a human. Their physical bodies were burried. It’s extremely unlikely a bunch of dust was burried underground imo. If they had turned to dust, perhaps they would’ve been placed in urns.
It seems as though the bodies of monsters in deltarune are not composed of magic unlike undertale.
This is perhaps an explanation as to why the war between humans and monsters that led to their imprisonment underground never happened. Humans supposedly declared war out of fear of the monsters’ abilities to absorb human souls and become godlike. This likely means that humans never even learnt magic as monsters could not show them, and the concept of magic became purely fantasy as in our world.
Also, this likely means that monsters can access the afterlife. Note that, in undertale, monster souls shatter almost immediately upon death unlike human souls. Because they can have an afterlife, they have a religion. However it seems they have their own religion as the priest makes reference to an angel as some sort deity (i think). Maybe a connection to the delta rune prophecy?
Berdly is frozen in the dark world, dark world gets removed, berdly is still frozen but his self is trapped in somewhere that doesn’t exist. Basically berdly is in a coma that cannot be fixed. So he is basically dead, but not dead. Also maybe some monsters bleed and others don’t.
I think monsters are still made of magic and have the potential to use magic. It's just that they never had a reason too. Magic is something you learn, the monsters in deltarune have hardly had any conflict and have likely forgotten it. As for birdly, there are 2 possibilities if monsters are the same as undertale. He is either a "fallen", a monster who has reached the end of their lifespan is known as this and will soon dust, or it could be that birdly's soul and body are still intact, but his mind has been destroyed, similar to how he no longer is able to use his arm if you do the queen fight incorrectly. Also, about dusting, it is likely monsters still dust when they die. In the graveyard the headstones are marked with that monsters favorite thing, in undertale we know that the dust of a monster is spread upon their favorite thing as a burial rite. Toby Fox doesn't seem to be changing many rules of undertale in this connected AU, but it still need to be seen
it could be that after you killed berdly in the dark world, he's just fallen down and just hasn't finished dying yet
but there's also a graveyard full of monsters so they probably don't turn to dust
I was thinking abt this today, I had this theory that also ties to the one of "the war never happened".
Basically, since there was no war monster rlly didn't have major reason to use magic (it's principal use seems to be in combat) so slowly they forgot how to use it, it's possible due to the properties they regained the ability.
As for the rest, the bleeding Susie sprites were cut cuz of sth, it makes me think because of monsters not bleeding (these sprites could've been done by someone not aware). For Berldy, it can be a) He got frozen to death, that's why his body is not gone or b) death in the Dark world is different, and in the real world you'd just be in comma.
For de Dt thing, it's possible Queen was mistaken and only lightners with strong dt (humans) can.
So monsters in deltarune might bleed and possess derermination.
Sans in undertale has blood and probably determination...
Ummmmm...
I think it's not that Toriel can't do magic, but because Dreemurs adopted a human child (who obviously can't do magic) they sacrificed things like using magic for making food etc, so Kris would naturally learn those things as if they lived with humans (after all, Toriel borrowed a book on how to raise a human many times)
Also, the queen's dialogue doesn't necessarily point to monsters having Determination. In the book up the stairs in the library, it says that nobody knows what souls are for (possibly why humans didn't wage a war on monsters), which means that nobody did any research to discover Determination. Keep in mind that the first person in the world of Undertale to discover it was Alphys, after receiving a human soul from Asgore
Queen is a computer, she only knows what's in the internet (example: she didn't know that making another fountain would destroy the world), if nobody knows anything about souls, nobody knows about Determination
She was probably thinking about determination literally, as an emotion, rather than a substance in a body
I'm not sure if you still find this comment among many, but there is proof in Deltarune that monsters still turn into dust when they die. Go to Father Alvin in Chapter 2 and ask him about the Hammer. They needed a "symbolic" body for Gerson's funeral, meaning he did turn into dust.
Ive been looking for this comment, thank you for being one of the few to actually notice a detail like that
Another point for this theory that monsters work differently and don’t have magic is the fact there is a graveyard, I don’t remember seeing one in Undertale ever, one of the logs in the lab says somethin bout giving the dust back to their families and I’m def just assuming this but why would you burry dust! An area for vases containing the dead would be much better than the labor needed for digging a grave and carving specific specialized headstones, ofc we do this in the real world even when cremation is an option but with Undertale monsters that step is skipped, so unless burying the dust of a monster is a religious or other tradition that’s yet to be explained I think there’s slowly more and more evidence to show how different these monsters are from Undertale’s rules
Also the one who asks kris if it hurts to bleed could be the uneducated one, Susie, while not the best student, would probably know the difference between dusting and bleeding with how often she probably had fought. Plus just asking “hey, do u bleed??” Sounds just like what a kid might say lol
I also like the idea that if monsters don’t bleed then maybe, in some way, this helps Kris’ connection to them? Not a theoretical connection but I think they want to make it clear that Kris probably wanted to BE a monster at some point, so maybe their mortality is just one of many potential similarities they latched on to (I’m not really going anywhere with this but I just think that’d make sense-)
What if during the war, the monsters and the humans accedently or on purpose, mixed with the humans, Kris is the only 100% human, that's why there out of place.
About the snowgrave. If you use it in a normal enemy it will vanish and become dust
Kris searched "how to use magic" so monsters definitely do use magic.
Ooh, this is super interesting! Although this is a very thought-provoking theory that could easily prove to be true, I don't know if we have quite enough evidence to say for sure yet
- Toriel not using fire could be because she isn't trained in it. Since there's no war (yet) in deltarune, she might not be accustomed to using this. We even hear that the police are basically just symbolic due to how low the crime rate really is
- I don't really think Susie's axe and magic really play into anything larger. The fact that she didn't realize she had an AXE kind of makes me think that's just dark world rules
- As for Susie and the blood thing, I have to agree that, yeah, absolutely something is up here. I'm sure this'll come up in a later chapter. Sans also bleeds, but that's another can of worms entirely lol
- I highly doubt anyone would know about determination and its effects on monsters here. Hell, monsters didn't know for centuries until large amounts were injected into them using the human souls. I don't exactly see that happening in this universe, and I also don't really see anyone like needing/being able to pull an Undyne either
- The birdly thing is totally an anomaly, and I don't doubt he's dead, but isn't he just fallen down here? Monsters "fall down" before turning to dust in undertales universe UNLESS they are directly fatally wounded. Since berdly is encased in ice, and we don't get to see what happens after, as well as what happens with his arm in neutral makes me believe this is what happens here
- Noel also mentions wishing she knew healing magic, but because she's playing an RPG at the time, could just be contextual
Just to be clear, I'm not saying this is a horrible theory, or even that it's wrong (tbh, it might be totally right and I'm just biased towards wanting a magic system), I just think there are some points worth bringing up. Great video!
1:13 4) Some monsters *don't* bleed (ghosts, for example, were established to already work differently to begin with)
That one bunny who askes if it hurts to be made of blood could just be young and uneducated too honestly.
I feel like Berdly isn't dead, just forever trapped in the dark world, so he can't escape