just to let everyone know, i was squaking, we were in a baron, and it was a low level military training route outside San Antonio... and trust me when i say we said "lets go home, also!!!"
T-38 was on a VR MTR. These are depicted on all sectionals. Non participating aircraft are recommended to cross these at 90 degree angles to reduce time in the MTR. Exactly what this light Twin (looks like a Beech Baron) did. Whoever was flying the light twin, if they did proper flight planning, should have expected military aircraft from that direction at those altitudes. They can easily call the controlling agency prior to flying get info on MTR training that day. Transiting SUA is legal.
NVM.... it was a Piper Seneca by the looks of it... light twin aircraft. WOW... THAT my friend is why I avoid Military Training Areas when flying below 3000 when not on an airway... I still cant believe ATC didnt call out radar contact, even if the private pilot wasn't under radar services or flight following...
You know when you almost lost it when you can see the numbers on the tail of the aircraft that just missed you. Man.. that was to close.... I would say the same dam thing. Man, their hearts have to be going a million miles a second.
All of you people who are saying shit like "the military should look out for civillian planes", well the military shouldn't have to. That's why they have MOAs, to have some kind of protected airspace to train in without having to watch out for people buzzing around in a 152.
Lol "OMG" "I have the aircraft!" "YOU HAVE THE AIRCRAFT!" Glad to see the instructor take informative action just a split second after. I love the Pilot/Co-pilot lingo in flight training it's so great. Glad to see they are OK...Folks, make sure to scan the horizon especially in a MOA..Dang!
Below 3000 feet above ground level, the pilot or a VFR aircraft can be at any altitude they want, which exceptions for populated areas, obstructions, etc. No, it most likely was a Piper twin Commanche. It has two wing mounted engines.
Below 3000 feet, a VFR aircraft can be at any altitude they want. It's in the regs. Also, the general aviation plane was not a Piper Cherokee, but most likely a Piper Twin Commanche.
Had a close call one night in BCS flying the OH-58A+/C, going out training under NVGs about 4 miles north of Shell AAF, instructor on controls, me on the map trying to navigate us to out first rt when I hear my instructor say oh my god and the helicopter go into what felt like a vertical(standing on its tail) climb. As I look through the chin bubble I can see through the greenhouse window of another helicopter and see the map and finger light of the pilot of the other helicopter. I was scared, my instructor was pissed but he made me continue the nights flight of navigating us via map then flying and taking instructions from him being on the map for the next few hours. I wanted to go home and call it a night and thank my lucky stars I didn't end up a pile of wreckage in the Alabama countryside but looking back on it I think it was one of the best teaching experiences for learning how to compartmentalize fear and not let it affect the mission. To this day I don't know how we missed mixing rotors, maybe in some multiple universe theory we did hit that night....
The video starts out by identifying the T38C.You ask in the singular, "was the pilot busted?" Which pilot? The military T38C trainee pilot (and instructor in the back seat) or the general aviation pilot? With good visibilty, both airplanes straight and level. It's quite likely that neither aircraft were IFR (instrument flight rules) at 1500 feet. We can surmise from the voice that the T38C was on an VR route, picking out landmarks, like that hill they mention.
I would love to get my hands on the original, non-compressed digital video file. It looks like a great archival piece. If it is an original piece of footage, then the contributor will be willing to disclose the source of this footage.
Tony, True he could be in one of Alert Area's, A-640 probably outside of Hondo. There are a lot of MOA's around Randolph and Laughin for training. And you can bet when I was in that area a couple of years ago I was talking to Houston Center and stayed out of both Alert and MOA's.
As a pilot, MOA's don't worry me; the military should be looking out for the civilian's that enter that airspace.. but the civilian aircraft does not need to be under ATC control. For IFR traffic, ATC directs most civilian traffic around the MOA, but VFR traffic is free to go right through... so again, VFR traffic is not obligated to be under ATC control (unless in Class B, C, or D airspace (and certain parts of other airspaces as well)
Actually this particular jet was on a military training route and at fault in this near miss is the Cessna pilot because according to FAA recommendation marked military training routes should be crossed at as close to a 90 degree angle as possible so as to lessen the possibility of collision. This pilots angle of attack was much to wide and he should have been more alert. As said below it is very difficult if not impossible for a fighter pilot to see a small oncoming plane.
Actually is is much easier for them to spot GA traffic and they are the ones to initiate evasive actions due to their speed. But that suppose that they look out especially during low level / high speed runs and I am not convinced they were doing that in that video.
Nearly hits another plane, accidentally activates bombing mode (CCIP indicator bottom left and the vertical line in the middle) and leaves it on. "Dude lets go home" indeed.
I guess he didn't get a TCAS RA because he was in A/G master mode. I think it only works in NAV. But I'm assuming the jet had TCAS installed, which it might not have. I'm not sure if it came with the C upgrade or if it was separate.
It may have been a military IR VR route. niether one was IFR or participating in ATC services, and because of the low altitude, they may not have been within radar coverage anyway. Nobody broke any rules, and it's no-one's fault. they just need to exercise more frequent traffic scanning, and it's easy for me to dish out the judgement, but getting distracted happens to all of us.
Amazing...!!! Apparently no flight following or ATC call out for traffic. They never even saw each other. That's why when I am up, I am CONSTANTLY looking for traffic... :/
I'm not sure how people are able to "suppose" he's in a MOA or restricted area or anything. He could be anywhere. Sucks that the TCAS didn't alarm though. We share a lot of airspace below 18,000 feet.
Probably not since he didn't do anything wrong except fly through a Military Operating Area. I would not fly through a MOA when it was hot unless I was in radar contact with the controlling facility, but it is legal.
I always make sure to be in radio contact with the controlling agency. What I object to is the attitude that I've seen from some military that 'we don't need to worry about VFR because were military', thats just not true. VFR is the same rules for all of us, if you cant remain VFR that phase should be conducted in a restricted area, you don't wanna hit me and I don't wanna hit you either...BTW what service do you fly for?
Actually thats an Air Force F-5 which is capable of Air to Ground Bombing. Strictly Used as a trainer! Good Eyes However on calling the Piper! I concur with your judgement there!
So what was the aircraft that went past? Some people think its a Cherokee but to my eyes it looks more like a Rockwell Commander. I've had a close call at a much lower closure rate and believe me its pretty scary. Certainly nothing to laugh about.
whoa, chill out. This is a Low level training mission. One of the few times that Military aircraft wont operate on an Instrument clearrance. This is one of those gray areas that somtimes happen and both pilots have just as much right to be in that place. The low level routes arent "owned" by anyone they are considered MOAs. The 38 technically has the right of way because they are on the right, but both pilots have the responsibilty to "see and avoid" other aircraft.
whoa, chill out. This is a Low level training mission. One of the few times that Military aircraft wont operate on an Instrument clearance. This is one of those gray areas that somtimes happen and both pilots have just as much right to be in that place. The low level routes arent "owned" by anyone they are considered MOAs. Its on both aircraft to see and avoid under these conditions. Technically the 38 has the right of way because they are on the right.
The C has it to simulate bombing runs.. also has a gun piper simulated and even a sidewinder pipper (just that , no tone or tracking, basically a circle on HUD)
Whether they were in a MOA, an IR route or even IFR the military pilot is *STILL* required to see-and-avoid other aircraft. In class E ATC only guarantees separation between IFR and IFR aircraft, not IFR and VFR. -Robert, CFII
You need to watch that video again, I don't see any reckless flying in it. When you are flying at 350 kcas your ground speed can be upwards of 420. It has nothing to do with military pilots being reckless, its simply that the Cessna 172 is small and slow, no bigger than a bug until its too late. As far as you flying through MOA's, here's an idea... fly under them! Oh and if I joined the MB fan club, I'd still be alive and you'd be a cloud of red vapor.
Why do they Call it a Neat miss If they Don't Hit??? They Nearly Missed??? It should be called a near hit. If they Crashed but Almost Got away then They Should call it a near miss.
@12jjdfn that was you? wow! 1,5000 feet altitude? missed by about 40 feet? give your wife and kids the map to the buried treasure next time you fly around there!
Or I don't know maybe a T-37 trainer with what looks like "RA" on the tail for Randolph Air Force base Texas. Further backed up bu the fact that the Randolph AV Flight made the film.
Probably to change his skivies... hahah. I cant blame him... Theres no reason why they should be at the same altitude with different heading like this... unless they were in the training area, but STILL A.T.C. AND the other flight should have been in communication with each other... Probably a student pilot without his/her IP, there could be no other explanation.
IMO thats not a jet its too small, if you look just under the nose it look like what could be a nose wheel, i may be mistaken it may be an engine, but i think its too small to be a jet
Looks to me that the F-5 Pilot was not flying VFR Altitudes! Course 325 he should of been flying at even thousands +500 "2500, 4500, etc etc" but he is flying at 1500 ft! Unless he was in a designated Military Operations Area or Bomb Range! Looks to me that He was the one out of line for two reasons, 1 not flying VFR courses and Altitudes, 2 not maintaining Situational Awareness!
Not exactly. If the military aircraft is operating in an MTR, civilians are best advised to stay out of, or above, the MTR. On a VR, expect that military aircraft will be operating visually and at speeds far in excess of the usual FAA 250 KIAS limitation - 360 to 420, for example, in the T-38 in this video. If it is an IR, the civilian pilot needs to exercise even more caution, as an IR is an instrument training route and the pilot(s) will be looking outdoors even less. If you are talking about training aircraft, there is no attack radar on board, and in the older variants, there was not even any TCAS. Yes, all pilots have a responsibility to see and avoid, but MTRs and MOAs are clearly marked on the charts and you will be informed of any activity if you have checked the NOTAMs.
just to let everyone know, i was squaking, we were in a baron, and it was a low level military training route outside San Antonio... and trust me when i say we said "lets go home, also!!!"
There are a lot of "near miss" videos on youtube....but this is one of the few that really is a near miss. WOW!
Yup agreed
T-38 was on a VR MTR. These are depicted on all sectionals. Non participating aircraft are recommended to cross these at 90 degree angles to reduce time in the MTR. Exactly what this light Twin (looks like a Beech Baron) did. Whoever was flying the light twin, if they did proper flight planning, should have expected military aircraft from that direction at those altitudes. They can easily call the controlling agency prior to flying get info on MTR training that day. Transiting SUA is legal.
"Oh my gosh! ... ... ... ... Ok, let's go home."
NVM.... it was a Piper Seneca by the looks of it... light twin aircraft. WOW... THAT my friend is why I avoid Military Training Areas when flying below 3000 when not on an airway... I still cant believe ATC didnt call out radar contact, even if the private pilot wasn't under radar services or flight following...
I always thought you had to have clearance before flying into MTAs
Somebody return to base with 1kg of shit inside the boxers.. kakaka
You know when you almost lost it when you can see the numbers on the tail of the aircraft that just missed you. Man.. that was to close.... I would say the same dam thing. Man, their hearts have to be going a million miles a second.
All of you people who are saying shit like "the military should look out for civillian planes", well the military shouldn't have to. That's why they have MOAs, to have some kind of protected airspace to train in without having to watch out for people buzzing around in a 152.
you sure it was a 152? watching full screen at 0.5 speed and play/pausing it looks like a beech baron to me
Lol "OMG" "I have the aircraft!" "YOU HAVE THE AIRCRAFT!" Glad to see the instructor take informative action just a split second after. I love the Pilot/Co-pilot lingo in flight training it's so great. Glad to see they are OK...Folks, make sure to scan the horizon especially in a MOA..Dang!
Below 3000 feet above ground level, the pilot or a VFR aircraft can be at any altitude they want, which exceptions for populated areas, obstructions, etc. No, it most likely was a Piper twin Commanche. It has two wing mounted engines.
Below 3000 feet, a VFR aircraft can be at any altitude they want. It's in the regs. Also, the general aviation plane was not a Piper Cherokee, but most likely a Piper Twin Commanche.
Back seater says, "Do you smell something?" Front seater, "Smell something?" Hell, I'm sitting in it!"
Watch carefully from 0.35 to 0.37 at slow speed.
Had a close call one night in BCS flying the OH-58A+/C, going out training under NVGs about 4 miles north of Shell AAF, instructor on controls, me on the map trying to navigate us to out first rt when I hear my instructor say oh my god and the helicopter go into what felt like a vertical(standing on its tail) climb. As I look through the chin bubble I can see through the greenhouse window of another helicopter and see the map and finger light of the pilot of the other helicopter. I was scared, my instructor was pissed but he made me continue the nights flight of navigating us via map then flying and taking instructions from him being on the map for the next few hours. I wanted to go home and call it a night and thank my lucky stars I didn't end up a pile of wreckage in the Alabama countryside but looking back on it I think it was one of the best teaching experiences for learning how to compartmentalize fear and not let it affect the mission. To this day I don't know how we missed mixing rotors, maybe in some multiple universe theory we did hit that night....
Cool story bro.
Agreed! Particularly the "wrong hemispheric altitude for flight criers". Since that only applies above 3000 agl!
The video starts out by identifying the T38C.You ask in the singular, "was the pilot busted?" Which pilot? The military T38C trainee pilot (and instructor in the back seat) or the general aviation pilot? With good visibilty, both airplanes straight and level. It's quite likely that neither aircraft were IFR (instrument flight rules) at 1500 feet. We can surmise from the voice that the T38C was on an VR route, picking out landmarks, like that hill they mention.
If a low level MTR is hot and you're a civilian pilot transitioning the area, then fly above it. They're only good up to 1500' AGL if memory serves.
coma13794 Up to 8000’ here at Carswell JRB Fort Worth
I would love to get my hands on the original, non-compressed digital video file. It looks like a great archival piece. If it is an original piece of footage, then the contributor will be willing to disclose the source of this footage.
TCAS would have been good to have here.
Jay, you ROCK!
Oh my.
Tony,
True he could be in one of Alert Area's, A-640 probably outside of Hondo. There are a lot of MOA's around Randolph and Laughin for training. And you can bet when I was in that area a couple of years ago I was talking to Houston Center and stayed out of both Alert and MOA's.
@sigmet25 The T-38 in the video is on a low level route indicated by Air to Ground master mode, 670 ft AGL, and his airspeed.
He could be in a charted Restricted Area, on a VR route, in an MOA, or just motoring along in Class E or G airspace. We don't know.
"let's go home" ......... wise words... i would agree after a scare like that.
As a pilot, MOA's don't worry me; the military should be looking out for the civilian's that enter that airspace.. but the civilian aircraft does not need to be under ATC control. For IFR traffic, ATC directs most civilian traffic around the MOA, but VFR traffic is free to go right through... so again, VFR traffic is not obligated to be under ATC control (unless in Class B, C, or D airspace (and certain parts of other airspaces as well)
HE WAS NOT IN A MOA! It was a military training route, outside of San Antonio.
Actually this particular jet was on a military training route and at fault in this near miss is the Cessna pilot because according to FAA recommendation marked military training routes should be crossed at as close to a 90 degree angle as possible so as to lessen the possibility of collision. This pilots angle of attack was much to wide and he should have been more alert. As said below it is very difficult if not impossible for a fighter pilot to see a small oncoming plane.
Actually is is much easier for them to spot GA traffic and they are the ones to initiate evasive actions due to their speed. But that suppose that they look out especially during low level / high speed runs and I am not convinced they were doing that in that video.
I grew up on Randolph. And most of that area is restricted .
Nearly hits another plane, accidentally activates bombing mode (CCIP indicator bottom left and the vertical line in the middle) and leaves it on. "Dude lets go home" indeed.
I guess he didn't get a TCAS RA because he was in A/G master mode. I think it only works in NAV. But I'm assuming the jet had TCAS installed, which it might not have. I'm not sure if it came with the C upgrade or if it was separate.
this has got to be pretty old.. the runway at Goodfellow AFB (San Angelo) has been closed for at least 12 years.
It may have been a military IR VR route. niether one was IFR or participating in ATC services, and because of the low altitude, they may not have been within radar coverage anyway. Nobody broke any rules, and it's no-one's fault. they just need to exercise more frequent traffic scanning, and it's easy for me to dish out the judgement, but getting distracted happens to all of us.
That could have been real messy.. I tell you what, if you think that was close pay real close attention to that thing at 36-37 seconds.
Paused at 21 secs. and it looks like a small Beechcraft to me.Still very lucky though.
I too think it was a Baron. And I think I woulda crapped in my flight suit! That was CLOSE!
Staying out of a MOA or a low level military training route really means nothing to the VFR private pilot!
"you guys are reckless 'jawsnap'"-ice
Glad you survived to write about it!
Looked like a Beechcraft Barron light twice, they dont come much closer than that!
I wouldn't have wanted to be the guy who had to clean the poo out of the Talon's cockpit....scary
that other pilot had blue eyes...
Amazing...!!! Apparently no flight following or ATC call out for traffic. They never even saw each other. That's why when I am up, I am CONSTANTLY looking for traffic... :/
Bird, looks like...2 near misses within 43 seconds, flying is Dangerous down there in Texas, boys....
All that technology... and it cant tell you theres plane nearby... jeesus!
I'm not sure how people are able to "suppose" he's in a MOA or restricted area or anything. He could be anywhere. Sucks that the TCAS didn't alarm though. We share a lot of airspace below 18,000 feet.
Probably not since he didn't do anything wrong except fly through a Military Operating Area. I would not fly through a MOA when it was hot unless I was in radar contact with the controlling facility, but it is legal.
Well if they had of hit they'd both be small particles almost instantly so at least it'd be quick
I always make sure to be in radio contact with the controlling agency. What I object to is the attitude that I've seen from some military that 'we don't need to worry about VFR because were military', thats just not true. VFR is the same rules for all of us, if you cant remain VFR that phase should be conducted in a restricted area, you don't wanna hit me and I don't wanna hit you either...BTW what service do you fly for?
well at least he had the decency to not have potty mouth.
Actually thats an Air Force F-5 which is capable of Air to Ground Bombing. Strictly Used as a trainer! Good Eyes However on calling the Piper! I concur with your judgement there!
Since when have the put pitot booms on F-5s.
T-38C ..close but not same
So what was the aircraft that went past? Some people think its a Cherokee but to my eyes it looks more like a Rockwell Commander. I've had a close call at a much lower closure rate and believe me its pretty scary. Certainly nothing to laugh about.
I have it on very very good authority it was a Beech Baron
whoa, chill out. This is a Low level training mission. One of the few times that Military aircraft wont operate on an Instrument clearrance. This is one of those gray areas that somtimes happen and both pilots have just as much right to be in that place. The low level routes arent "owned" by anyone they are considered MOAs. The 38 technically has the right of way because they are on the right, but both pilots have the responsibilty to "see and avoid" other aircraft.
it's this guy's fault airliners have the right of way always
whoa, chill out. This is a Low level training mission. One of the few times that Military aircraft wont operate on an Instrument clearance. This is one of those gray areas that somtimes happen and both pilots have just as much right to be in that place. The low level routes arent "owned" by anyone they are considered MOAs. Its on both aircraft to see and avoid under these conditions. Technically the 38 has the right of way because they are on the right.
since when does a T-38 have a CCIP pipper? And yes, that plane was most lilely a Piper Cherokee.
The C has it to simulate bombing runs.. also has a gun piper simulated and even a sidewinder pipper (just that , no tone or tracking, basically a circle on HUD)
Fuck that was close but there is still a mission to fly.....press on.
Was this in a MOA? R-2508 in Calif is saturated with incursions.
Oh Sh*t! now that's a near miss
Dude, let's go home.
Whether they were in a MOA, an IR route or even IFR the military pilot is *STILL* required to see-and-avoid other aircraft. In class E ATC only guarantees separation between IFR and IFR aircraft, not IFR and VFR.
-Robert, CFII
I bet they bit a hole in the seat of those jets......
You need to watch that video again, I don't see any reckless flying in it. When you are flying at 350 kcas your ground speed can be upwards of 420. It has nothing to do with military pilots being reckless, its simply that the Cessna 172 is small and slow, no bigger than a bug until its too late. As far as you flying through MOA's, here's an idea... fly under them! Oh and if I joined the MB fan club, I'd still be alive and you'd be a cloud of red vapor.
I have no idea, seeing how they reacted on 9/11 it really makes me wonder what they're doing. It's no easy job but holy crap.
Thumbs up for you!
Holy sh#### i have to change my underware. What a miss!!!
ooops ....,i think it,s time to go home now
ahh nevermind date is at start.. maybe from san angelo's civil airport.
sorry for the repost
Well I think THIS happened and YOU'RE wrong!
Why do they Call it a Neat miss If they Don't Hit??? They Nearly Missed??? It should be called a near hit. If they Crashed but Almost Got away then They Should call it a near miss.
Near miss at 0:19
@12jjdfn
that was you?
wow!
1,5000 feet altitude?
missed by about 40 feet?
give your wife and kids the map to the buried treasure next time you fly around there!
Wait, so that happened and nobody said anything over comms? I feel like that’s something you’d want to relay
the Seneca flew through an active MOA and wouldn't have been on the comms that the T38 was on, someone didn't read their NOTAMs or consult a chart
Or I don't know maybe a T-37 trainer with what looks like "RA" on the tail for Randolph Air Force base Texas. Further backed up bu the fact that the Randolph AV Flight made the film.
Probably to change his skivies... hahah. I cant blame him... Theres no reason why they should be at the same altitude with different heading like this... unless they were in the training area, but STILL A.T.C. AND the other flight should have been in communication with each other... Probably a student pilot without his/her IP, there could be no other explanation.
yes akrain i saw sumfin doing +++mach in front of them at 36
@skipplet THIS. Glad someone else gets it. :)
WATCH YO JET
AF651 time. Anyone catch the tail number?
IMO thats not a jet its too small, if you look just under the nose it look like what could be a nose wheel, i may be mistaken it may be an engine, but i think its too small to be a jet
Looks to me that the F-5 Pilot was not flying VFR Altitudes! Course 325 he should of been flying at even thousands +500 "2500, 4500, etc etc" but he is flying at 1500 ft! Unless he was in a designated Military Operations Area or Bomb Range! Looks to me that He was the one out of line for two reasons, 1 not flying VFR courses and Altitudes, 2 not maintaining Situational Awareness!
It’s a T-38 and you don’t need to fly hemispheric under 3,000 AGL
New set of underwear required! Keep your head on a swivel out there...
do they have clean replacement underwear in those fancy pressure suits?
Looked like a 421
I think it was either a 421 or a baron
that looks scary!
Next time, prepare two rolls of toilet paper on the ground...
that's worth changing your shorts
no one said anything?
Jerry Seinfeld, everyone :)
Learn what you're talking about first. Ever heard of ATC, Restricted Airspace, and so on and so forth?
ROFLMAO "OH MY GOD!" ROFL
ok let's go home-i gotta change my under wear
OK, I totally understood that... not.
0:20 Free Replay Button
Uh, no TCAS?
why ATC not informed nothing ?
ATC doesn't own the MOA when it is active
way too close...
A near miss is a Collision.
Both pilots shared in the blame. 50/50!
Not exactly. If the military aircraft is operating in an MTR, civilians are best advised to stay out of, or above, the MTR. On a VR, expect that military aircraft will be operating visually and at speeds far in excess of the usual FAA 250 KIAS limitation - 360 to 420, for example, in the T-38 in this video. If it is an IR, the civilian pilot needs to exercise even more caution, as an IR is an instrument training route and the pilot(s) will be looking outdoors even less. If you are talking about training aircraft, there is no attack radar on board, and in the older variants, there was not even any TCAS. Yes, all pilots have a responsibility to see and avoid, but MTRs and MOAs are clearly marked on the charts and you will be informed of any activity if you have checked the NOTAMs.
I swallowed my gum! Can anybody tell me what just happened?
looks like a General Aviation aircraft flew through an active MOA (military operations area)