ALL MOTOR VS CHEAP TURBO-COST VS POWER, WHO WINS? DIRT CHEAP DIY BEST MODS, 4.6L 2V COMPARE
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- čas přidán 21. 09. 2021
- SHOULD I SWAP HEADS, CAMS AND INTAKE OR JUST ADD BOOST? DIY TURBO VS ALL MOTOR. WHICH ONE MAKES MORE POWER? WHICH ONE COSTS MORE? WHICH ONE HAS MORE POTENTIAL? WHICH ONE IS EASIER? CHECK OUT THIS COMPARISON ON A 4.6L 2V MODULAR FORD, WHERE I COMPARED GOING THE ALL-MOTOR ROUTE (PORTED PI HEADS, COMP CAMS AND ACCUFA/PI INTAKE) TO ADDING A CHEAP, EBAY (CXRACING) TURBO AND ATW INTERCOOLER. I EVEN INCLUDED ROUGH COSTS (STICK AROUND TIL THE END). WHICH WAY IS BEST FOR YOU?
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What impresses me the most is how just a little boost makes such big gains. Thank you for your time and effort. I really appreciate it
shows how under stressed most American v8's were. once they figures out how to put more aggressive timings along with decent emissions we went from v8's having 270is hp to them making 400+ easy over night.
@@GoldenNada If you're talking about OEM power numbers most of that came with other improvements in architecture, like heads, intakes vvt etc. so that they could still be under stressed and more reliable.
Building my 2v as we speak, should see about 800/900whp once it's done. Diamond pistons, Eagle H-Beam rods, Kellog forged crank, TW custom grind cams, FIC 1000cc injectors, Victor Jr intake, VSRacing Next Gen billet 78/75, ARP everything etc...should be pretty crazy
GT45 on a 4.6 sounds like a super sleeper, especially in a Grand Marquis, or Town Car.
might do this on my 2v explorer
@@tylerwilkey13 RIP 5R55 transmisson, lol.
I'm doing this to my town car as we speak. About to order a cheap turbo and intercooler from ebay. I already have a bunch done to it and the transmission. So throwing boost on it will just wake her up. 🤣
God I love this guy! Richard is the man. This is the exact reason I am putting the non PI 4.6 in my 59 Country Sedan wagon. I KNOW that I will be getting exactly what I want because of this video, and others that he has done like it. Thank you sir. Thank you!!!
P.S. I am updating the heads with the Trick Flow top end package, and going turbo. :-)
@@miketatro6468 gonna be sweet man, i'm building a bored 2v with Race 195 TrickFlow heads n stage 3 MHS TF cams n once done n/a with a stroker 5.0L kit ima boost it, leaning towards supercharger tho..
@@P71ScrewHead Sounds Awesome! Hope to see a video of it on here when it is done.
@@miketatro6468 thanks man, will do..
You have one of the best knowledge 2v bulit channel platforms on youtube. I feel like im in school again. Thanks, man. god speed!
All well and good, but don’t forget the packaging in an engine bay issues and the needed ECU tuning play into the equation as well.
There's more than enough room in any 2 valve engine bay and a tune is needed whether you add boost or not.
I WANT IT ALL! Give me forged rods and pistons, a turbo cam, ported heads, intercooler AND 15lbs of boost! I WANT 700hp baby!
I love what you do to help us 4.6 2v fans thanks a bunch ,now i need to get a turbo for my 03 mustang gt
Ikr everyone hates these motors and im like...... but panther platform life and fuck 5.0 and there weak blocks
175k subs!
You really rock. Congratulations you deserve it
Thanks a ton!
Great video as usual.
Live chat was cool lol, I looked at the totals, Grosse point, MI (45 mins from me) got over 8" of rain in this last storm. We are over 40" of total rainfall this year so far 🤯
I remember back in about 1979 or 80 when I first became interested in hot rods there was a company that was offering a turbo kit for the Trans Am. A couple of car magazines tested them. The stock 77/78/79 Trans Am with a 400 would run low 15's in the quarter mile. With the turbo they would run high 13's. The magazines proclaimed it was a way to get true muscle car performance out of the late model Trans Am. Turbos were still in their infancy though and I know a lot of the converted cars lost engines, probably due to detonation because of timing. Good gas was still available at the pump. But even back then I thought turbos were awesome and today it's hard to deny the bang for the buck they give.
It always blows my mind when hot rod guys tell me that gas is gas octane doesn’t matter can’t imagine how many guys had high compression or boost running 87 in the 70-80
@@utahcountypicazospage5412 Yeah, I know what you mean. I had a 69 GTO back in high school and it was reasonably high compression, rated at 10.75 but I think actually closer to 9.75. I would run premium which was rated at 95 or 97 at the time I think? My dad had told me to always run premium in my car. It was expensive compared with regular which was 87 or 88 but I did anyway. My buddies would run whatever was cheapest. They all had similar cars with factory high compression engines. They all had run on, pinging and of course eventually engine failures. And these weren't even turbo or truly high compression engines.
A VERY FINE JOB AS ALWAYS
I have recently come across your channel and have learned a lot from your videos. Thank you for such detailed information and comparisons. An Idea for a future video is very similar to this one. Jeeps have ran the 3.6 v6 for what feels like a decade now, the common statement if someone wants more power is to just Hemi/LS swap because the pentastar is weak. It would be interesting to see how much power one could get out a 3.6 Pentastar done right compared to a common 392 Hemi. Team GM has a similar potential comparison with all the v6 Camaros on the road that users are told to sell and buy the v8 version.
All the new edge guys swinging at the air cause the non pi bottom end
I was thinking about this earlier today. Big inch sbf with my tremec magnum or stick with my 347 and buy a dart block and a supercharger.
Good one.
I’m ready for this 😭
Awesome
going to be interesting
Turbo will always make more power but in a tight engine bay under all street conditions with pump gas taking reliability for a street car into consideration i think a turbo setup will be more expensive than you may expect. I would back na for a hot day with lots of weight for long term reliability. Love your vids.
If he put the turbo on a non pi engine it wouldn't have had that much more power he put the turbo on a pi engine which was up 30+ horse on the baseline. The non pi stock engine would have choked it off more leading to less power so the turbo setup wouldn't have been up as much on the heads cam intake setup...I'd recommend start with all motor THEN add boost later if you want. You could make a ton of power at even lower boost levels making it more efficient and able to make more power safer. You wanna stay around 10 or less psi on a stock bottom end and having engine mods allows you to make alot of power while staying at or below that boost level.
Generally speaking, a newer engine is designed to make torque at streetable RPMs efficiently, so adding a HCI all-engine deal tends to move things up the RPM range, trading noise to get the last bit of efficiency (exhaust and intake noise, etc). A turbo can increase the efficiency of the cylinder filling, but both mods are going to run into octane issues if you don't live in a part of the country selling E 85 everywhere. There you might get into a debate of increased displacement versus, say, nitrous. Or use a small turbo to max out the torque below 4,000 rpm, and the engine feels strong regardless of power output because after your transmission shifts at 4,000 rpm, the engine doesn't fall out of its power band, but into a nice fat torque curve.
amusingly, boost is a measurement of how much restriction there is in the intake flow. so you can get better HCI and find you need less boost, which could get you back to a compression ratio for pump gas.
What is hci??
@@lilcray99 sorry, that's new cylinder Heads, new Camhaft design, new Intake system. basically the top end of the engine so it breathes better. engines are just oxygen pumps, so get it in, burn it, get it out for the next batch of oxygen to get in.
@@albertgaspar627 gotchaaa
I continue to love your work. "For straight line go, go turbo!" For me, the mods that win are the ones that don't get you arrested, detested, or entoombed. A turbo is always cheapest👏 way to do it all. Until you break traction, a speed limit or drive train part. Porting a stock head and under the radar mods that don't trip fault codes are important goals in our current legal climate. Who would ever have thought...turbos, nitrous and visual inspection engine mods would be illegal for daily drivers in many states.
Sorry to surface something so old but your video was very informative and helped me know what direction I want to go with my 96 gt. So one part I'd like clarification on is whether it's worth staying non p.i and adding boost since you mentioned when adding p.i components to the non p.i motor raised compression. My understanding is lower compression is best for boost applications. Hope to hear from you. Thanks for your awesome content.
what fuel do you plan to run? The PI heads flow better and make more power than the non PI heads (same for the intake)
It'll be fine you can run lower boost with the added compression and still be ok. More compression is always better imo and if you have access to e85 you can make a ton more power with boost and higher compression...
Man I would love to have one of those engine you had on the test bench. That would replace my 2000 2v engine with over 350,000 miles on her. Been through 2 head gaskets replacement and that's about all. She smokes a lil bit, but still runs strong. Only upgrades u have is trick flow cams, 75mm throttle body, cold air kit, shorty headers with x-pipe and factory heads I tried to port myself.
junkyards have plenty
@@richardholdener1727That was one of my biggest debate, if I was going to go that route I would just rebuild what I have. Engines from the junkyard is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.
Should do a all motor with pump gas 87-93 then with e85 then to distilled race gas talking about timing and diminishing gains.
pi heads have a shroud chamber makes more compression.i ran ported piheads picams piIntake 3inchexhaust75 shot wet NOS stock tune ran great super reliable but gutless lol
I just started the video, but guessing some feelings are gonna be hurt. 😛
A healthy NA as a base line will have more power once boost is included
I do both
Richard ... if you have the raw data for the two different dyno runs, I can create an Excel spreadsheet for you (reusable) which will plot the HP/TQ against each other. Hit me up if you'd like.
I was mostly impressed at the gain in power just by adding an intercooler and timing to the turbo. Was the gain all from the timing or does intercooler add power without any additional timing?
Cooled denser air will give you more power even without timing.
Been waiting on this for awhile! Only issue is i have an 07 f150 4.6 2v and dont know if i should swap for a 5.4 2v/4v or aviator 4v or just go forged internals on 4.6 2v and twin turbos.
Did you even watch the video lol just throw a cheap turbo on it and be on your way lol 450 lbft at the wheels is gonna feel insane compared to what you have now
Should have used vicJR intake manifold and carb swapped it for the manifold and intake upgrade. Cheap , easy
wasn't avail when these were done
MY FAVORITE V8 , thx Richard...I've built numerous tbirds and cougar using the 2v and also the 4v , mainly 2v
The mod motor has anemic connecting rods. I've seen many forced induction "daily drivers," put a rod, through the block. They hold up, for a while, then the party is over. For long term use, upgrade the connecting rods.
never broke a stock rod
Rpm is the enemy even though sohc is a rev happy engine
Not sure if you’ve done it before…
I’d like to see a comparison of a stock LS with the factory tune VS an optimized tune. I think people will be surprised how much power comes from a tune alone.
TAKE A LOOK AT THE LS ACCESSORY TEST
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks
What type of transmission will go with this though ?
How many pounds of boost until the stock springs become ineffective?
The 2 are different builds and different uses, RPM range etc.
Would like to see a NA 6.0ls vs a cheap turbo 5.3
that video is up
I wonder how Twisted wedge heads would play into this. I’ve always theorized that with a Ford Performance 5.3 shortblock and twisted wedge heads (with other supporting components) you could crack 550 hp N/A. Not very affordable and in no way stock, but hey.
Maybe crank but not wheel
What size fuel injectors do you recommend for this simple turbo setup? You mentioned adding more fuel but not the actual injectors used for the test. I would love this combination in my 2011 PI Crown Vic.
injector size is based on power output-1000 cc for 1000 hp
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks for the cc to hp relation. With a little math and conversion to lbs/hr from cc I’m shooting for the 500hp range and can size injectors in the 50-70 lbs/hour if I’m understanding correctly.
How far can you push a 2.9 L cologne engine with boost?
I had a 98 V6 Stang. We found that the V6 stock bottom end could handle a lot more power than a 4.6 V8. If memory is correct, the 4.6 block would not last very long even at 450 HP. Whereas the 3.8 V6 could handle a lot more and live. So long as you didn't rev it past 6k RPM. It was a fun time watching the guys on V6 Power continue to push the envelope and be amazed as they upped the boost, the motor lived. They with hesitation kept upping it to even more amazement in seeing these low power motors going up to, I think 700 hp and living with bone stock blocks, cranks and pistons. And the word was you can not do this to the 4.6 as the blocks would crack. I was planning on doing a turbo to mine but it is illegal in CA. Which is another pitfall on any turbo install. You can't do it in CA and many other States. So I hit it with N20 which is much harder on a motor than a turbo because it hits hard instantly and with a 150 shot, eaxuast, intake and 373's I could walk away from the Cobras, Z's and even stock Vettes. I ran countless bottle of Nitrous through that thing and it did nothing to the motor. Upon take down there was no sign that it had been abused and ran perfectly up until the day I pulled the heads to do porting. I even raced a couple of those turbo Subarus and would walk by them. They would get me from the dig but I would walk by them. It was fun. I also heard, and again don't know if it is true, that the Cobra blocks suffered the same weakness as the GT's. A guy put SC internals in the 3.8 block and and boosted it to the point where he was running 9's . This was around 20 years ago and it was pretty impressive back then. He also lived in a State where he could do this.
Right.
ACCUFAB RUNS 3000 HP ON STOCK BLOCKS
@@richardholdener1727 98 4.6 blocks?
@@chuckyz2 the early (1993-1998) 4v AL blocks are really tough. With sleeves you will never break one on the street and stock bore they will last forever at 1000hp. The iron blocks are really beefy for a 250hp engine. Mm&Ff had a stock, machined, iron block making 750whp with a centrifugal blower for a season of racing. There is a bunch of guys that have fairy tales of split blocks with 400whp but true tales are hard to come by. The rods from the mod motors seem to be what ends the fun and I can't find anyone that's mangled a rod with less than 700hp. A bunch of guys rattled a piston and windowed a block but you can do that with any cast piston. I would be really surprised if a 3.8l short block could take more punishment than a 4.6l.
@@timothybayliss6680 some folks can break a bowling ball in a sand box too... 35* of timing and boost on 87 octane is probably all you need to make expensive doorstops and ashtrays. :)
You ever play around with replacing ONLY intake or ONLY exhaust cams on a DOHC motor of any type?
Something I have always been curious to see.
Honestly if it wasn't so difficult in the car,I would try it on on a vq35de just to see how bad (maybe good?) It could be.
Lots of 32v guys have only replaced on set of cams
With 4v engines, the exhaust cams are pretty much the same across all the intech, cobras, aviators, machs, marauders, continetal etc. The intake cams vary from 184°, 200°, and 206° @.050, all sharing .397 max lift. Swapping to custom grind intake camshafts is a great bang for the buck and makes 80% of the power that a full cam swap would, especially when degreeing. Another huge benefit to the 4v is being able to completely optemize the intake and exhaust centerline/lsa. Many people think they need a ton of intake duration but a 96 Cobra, 206° intake cams in a 03 headed 4v has put down as much as 375rwhp in na, nmra trim. Its the degreeing in the duration that makes big power. You can tailor your stock cams to pick up 10-15hp in different parts of the revs. For example, degreeing a c headed 99/01 4v to 106/118 will pickup a ton of midrange torque, peak similar hp, and not fall off dramatically past peak power. You can even degree the oem cams for that novelty nasty idle too!
I have a few videos on my channel of 5.4 cam swap with my cams. Went 11.80@118 @4200lb on 93 with stock bottom end and stock heads.
I had a coolant leak due to a crack in the factory PI composite intake and replaced it with a cheap aftermarket intake. It killed power everywhere. The intake can give a noticeable measure of performance on a 4.6 2V PI modular motor.
👍💪
Hey Rich
@RichardHoldener I looked this video up after reading the article you wrote on the turbo motor. "Low-Buck Turbo Ford - 592HP 4.6L 2V Motor For $2,298" In the article you made another run(s) at 14 psi, where it made 592 hp and 640 lbs. ft. Not sure if you left that off of this video because it's beyond the connecting rod recommended limit, or another reason, but I was after the dyno curve. I did get what I was looking for, and this little combo is impressive. I think duplicating this with Coyote rods and aftermarket pistons would make a stupid fun SN95 that at full weight could be low to mid 11s. Big question is for the street, would you go 10.5 to 1? 9 to 1? Higher should make more off idle, with boost making up the once lit power...
By the way, diesel guy so I love the torque!
it's not beyond the limit of the rods
@@richardholdener1727 I'll try to hit up a live to ask a few questions. Thanks!
Hey Richard, do you think a lot of the 4.6 2v performance concepts will apply to my Jeep 4.7 considering the similar displacement and SOHC design?
NOT VERY MANY PARTS FOR THOSE
And speaking as a person who has personally rebuilt a 4.7, don’t bother. The heads are horrible, mine dropped an intake valve seat (common) 2500 miles after the rebuild. The heads were fresh from a well known rebuilder. The engine seems brilliant when you look at the build though. A bed plate and fractured con rods like we first saw in Ferrari I think. The oil pump is crank driven, the overhead cams are cool but the execution was substandard. The rebuild was also quite expensive from a parts standpoint(we are talking stock build with quality parts). I used a Melling pump, Sealed Power pistons and rings, Clevite bearings etc. Also the rod bolts and head bolts are torque to yield. Yes it’s pain to torque but it’s one time use and it will cost you hundreds just to pull the heads if you have to as you have to replace to bolts and they are not cheap. Maybe consider boost for an engine like this, I wouldn’t rev it despite the cool tech.
@@Yohann67 thanks for the info and advice.
I think I’m going to stick with my 4.7 just based on uniqueness alone, not to mention the WJ Jeep its in I can’t see myself replacing with an SRT. I also love the 4.7 sound as well.
Im actually in the slow process of creating a stronger 4.7 with a turbo.
There is a guy in Arizona who is pushing 700whp on his turbo build limited by transmission issues and oil pump issues like you said. You can look up his videos on CZcams as mandos tuning or just look up 4.7 turbo Jeep.
However he is an off-road racer and my build will be a 500-600hp max daily driver so I think I can get a way with a bit more.
If I do any serious racing or just want more power I’d definitely just swap in a hemi.
@@rodom303 If you are not already looking at Rock Auto definitely look at them, they had the best prices and availability. I would defiantly recommend the ARP bolts and head studs if you can. Look into having a head shop actually pin the valve seats, that is what took mine out. Additionally the 4.7 had some oil return issues and some people have written about oil return work. I believe there are some supercharger kits avail, that stock intake is crap….once it gets valve seat shrapnel it’s almost impossible to clean it out! I look forward to hearing how this turns out. Cheers.
I feel that you oversimplified running aluminum tubing. However I do agree bang for buck on a low power motor turbo is far cheaper. I'm surprised you didn't include price of waste gate, turbo header, and injectors if you needed them for the duty cycle. Those are still several hundred dollar items.
both combos need bigger injectors, i did forget waste gate, no need for turbo header (use stock manifolds)
@@richardholdener1727 I suppose if you have a welder, a flange and waste gate clamp aren't that expensive. That's what I was getting at with turbo headers. Usually you can eBay some turbo headers for about $200
The 4.6 2 valve just runs has torqe. Good damn motors the 4.6 only lol.
So you can gap the rings on stock internals and squeeze more power out of it? At that point you Already have the pistons and rods out mine as well swap in forged internals right? Or can your gap the stock rings and be ok for 500hp?
STOCK BOTTOM ENDS WITH RING GAP GO A LONG WAY
@@richardholdener1727 so if you can't afford forged pistons and rods. it is beneficial to tear it down and ring gap.
So how much would the hp and torque be at the wheel or is that dependant on the kind of car and a tune?
DEPENDS ON DRIVE TRAIN
Hi, i have Block romeo .20, rods coyote 1er gen, piston 6cc, crank .10, cams 278, headers, bbk 73mm, coils msd, pulleys bbk, intake sr 2½, múltiple profesional products to aluminium. And shot 100 nitro.
what do you think of that configuration???
Meaby 450 whp?
LET ME KNOW
What is a good base turbo to start for the 4.6 2v
pi makes the most stock-but non pi plus pi heads works well
Man Richard don't kill me with this one. Im about to spend some serious cash to do a bottom end build instead of getting a procharger. 😬
ALL GOOD
Smartest thing you could have done the crank ,main bearings and rods would have been on a timer with a procharger
@@cainadkins3985 fully forged bottom end kit from Texas speed. I already have 243 heads and a BTR stage3 cam. I'm also going with a LSX 92mm for drivability instead of the 102.
Dunno why you people go cuckoo about putting forged bottom ends in everything. Just turbo it and be happy. You blow it up you can get an entire engine cheaper than the forged bottom, plus your more likely to mess it up cracking into the bottom end.
For me it's about reliability at the desired power output. Different engines need different parts to be reliable at different states of tune. I pulled back on my 5.0 build due to cost of parts.
I see a lot of people online talking about PI vs non pi and they seem to consider pi being up to 2005. I have seen the stock 4.6 rods, they are scary small imo. Do later production models have any advantages? I have a 2008 vic and I am just wondering if new rods are absolutely necessary for around 400WHP. That seems to be the number people like to hover around. In this video you have quite large numbers for torque (and hp, nice job btw, would be awesome in a daily) what is the level of concern for the rods at this power level. Any comments welcome. TIA
WE'VE DONE 700+ WITH STOCK RODS
@@richardholdener1727 dang that's quite impressive, do you have any idea the year of that 700+ motor? Or any opinions on late model 4.6s? Thanks for the above response!
@almccameron4960 at 400 wheel you'll be fine man don't overthink it. Best thing you can do is add long tubes and cams so you can make alot more power at a lower boost level making it more efficient and safer thus more likely to stay alive (likely above 400 rwhp with that stuff)
Is there a turbo ing for dummies out there?
First, my G
Personally I blame squirrels
Chipmunks 😐
@@waynereid9881 damn chipmunks :(
A...L...V..I...N...
@@richardholdener1727 lol
What injectors?
80s with boost
What did I learn from this video? Not to use a Ford 4.6 2v motor...NA or Boosted 🤣
Im not a HP whore personally. I prefer the feeling a built NA engine gives. Just something special about it. More so than a boosted engine in my opinion.
What is pi and non pi?
Performance improved vs non Performance improved.
The PI is the revised heads on the newer motors.
its power improved i think idk probably different heads for years one making more power than the other
99-11 PI heads have smaller combustion chambers, bigger exhaust valves, 3 angle valve jobs and with the improved PI Cam and Intake, they produced 260fwhp stock. The Non pi ran 96-98 had a large combustion chamber, single angle valve job, much less low lift airflow when stock and with its low lift cams and crappy intake, they produce 225hp stock. Most of the power gains from pi swapping a npi come from the cams and pi intake manifold as well as the bump in compression being huge for average power. There are also a 95 and earlier 2v head that is much like a npi but had a few more disadvantages.
@@madmod I don't think he was looking for all this info but it's helpful! Thanks for posting this, it was a nice little refresher. I haven't messed around with the 2v 4.6L in years. OP I hope you got your answer and possibly more.
@@madmod thanks
Yep more reinforcement of my love of GM over Ford 🤣. LS engines blow those 4.6L Fords out the water. Not gonna lie tho, you guys did get some respectable power out of em after modification.
Lol at all motor modulars.
Lol at stupid haters like with nothing better to do than get on videos about something you don't like just so you can talk shit. Kick rocks clown.
No overlay of the two setups
Who wins? People without early mod motors. Sorry ford guys you got good stuff just not those
The early mod motors are awesome did you even watch the video? This non pi 4.6 made over 400 hp with ported pi heads and aftermarket cams that is pretty impressive for a 90s 4.6 2v. The 4v was even better with forged rods and pistons a teksid block from a 96-99 cobra can do 1000+ rwhp in its sleep stock crank stock block. Ppl love to just repeat bs do some research.
Hard to not call this apple's to oranges. You did the first mods to a non pi. Then did the boost mods to a pi. Which is basically a 35 hp headstart. Boost should have also been put on non pi motor so the true $ to hp comparison could be seen. Other than seeing capability of the two motors this comparison is useless for comparing mod value per hp. Sorry.
one motor was modified NA, the other got boost. True test.