To summarize (from the novel): Duke Leto needed to keep his options open for a political alliance marriage. Fortunately, children fathered on bound concubines are considered legitimate. So being unmarried didn't prevent him from having an heir. There, was that so hard?
@@samsun99 - I don't recall it being spelled out explicitly, but I believe that the answer is that the noble born wife's child would take precedence. Leto loves Jessica and Paul and this is implied to be the reason that he didn't actually make much effort to marry. Of course, the Bene Gesserit were likely running interference anyway. Their breeding program was already off-track. Paul was supposed to be a daughter. Ironically, the BGs really lost control of the situation with Feyd dueling Paul to the death. Otherwise, Feyd might have ended up married to (or at least breeding with) Alia down the road. Nobles were supposed to live longer due to consumption of the Spice. But, on the other hand, two Kwisatz Haderachs might have been extremely problematic.
@@samsun99Only if it's Leto's, and it never would be. It's a political arrangement only. It's made pretty clear that Leto is all about Jessica. Paul's relationship with Chani and Irulan is also the same way. He is married to Irulan and has nothing to do with her.
@@Kwisatz-Chaderach - Exactly, which is why Leto never actually married. It was enough to seem available for an alliance marriage. But he wasn't actively seeking a wife other than Jessica. You might notice the flimsy excuse that Shaddam IV makes to Irulan about her age difference with Leto. As if nobody ever marries somebody with a large age difference. In truth, he would *never* have allowed any of his daughters to marry Leto because that would put Leto in a position to claim the Golden Lion Throne. Paul only married Irulan for that exact reason.
This is one of the plot holes resulting from Herbert forgetting his own rules. Once Jessica underwent the Spice Agony and became a Reverend Mother, she would have know everything her female ancestors did, including the identity of her father. But yes, Leto never knew. The Bene Gesserit made sure of that when they steered him towards her as a bound concubine.
He actually knew at some point. And had told confidante, including Idaho. In the book, there is a scene of Idaho letting this slip while drunk on spice liquor, freshly arrived on Arrakis.
That's right, he did know...And very likely Gaius Helen Mohiam knew too, especially in view of the later books, where she is revealed to be Jessica's actual mother. (It is my theory that this was also already the intention of Frank Herbert himself to make her so, even though he had not openly spelled that out in the books he wrote, but it does seem to have been the concept at the latest when David Lynch made his movie. ) Which in any case sheds an interesting light on her statement that Jessica was ordered to bear only daughters so that one of these daughters could be wed to an Harkonnen male to "seal the breach" between the two houses. If an alliance between the two houses was the aim, they could already quite comfortably have had that through Leto and Jessica, so what's the real deal? Not to mention that the union between the houses that the union that the BG did plan would result in the Kwisatz Haderach being inbred twice over? (Unless they thought that the genetic traits of Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen, who was the intended candidate, were considered to be valuable for some reason, which does seem to have been the case, otherwise they would not have sent Lady Margot Fenring to conceive a child with him to "secure the bloodline".) Leto Atreides II later realizes that in order to secure the Golden Path and the survival of the human race, he has to become a ruthless tyrant, so are we to assume that the BG knew this too and they thought incorporating Feyd's ruthlessness into the bloodline of the KH would help? (With the exception that a KH born of Feyd would just be ruthless no more, whereas Leto mainly is out of his love for humankind.) However, it's still weirder that the BG must have known (been presciently aware of) the fact that Jessica would disobey them and bring the KH one generation too early; otherwise their Missionaria Protectiva would not have planted that particular form of the Lisan Al Gaib legend on Arrakis...
i think its amazing to think what a man leto was sinc HE just more or less convinced a bene gesserit to ditch their generation long plan and give him a male heir cause jessica loves him, in this aspect he was even more powerful than the emperor himself which i think acutally is a passage in the first book.
The reason that the Emperor feared Leto was because Leto was extremely popular and respected by the Landsraad. Also, the Bene Gesserit had ensured that Shaddam had no sons because they were planning to install their Kwisatz Haderach on the Golden Lion Throne. Ironically, though the KH was born a generation ahead of schedule, that is exactly what he ended up doing. Only without the BGs having him on a leash.
yeah i know, read the first book and im at the second at like 1/3 progress or so ... but holy shit, if you think about the fact that the Bene Gesserit=BG did create and scheme this plan for MILLENIAS, and they knew that their was a not small possibility that paul was the KH, how stupid can they be... yeah they ordered harkonnen to not kill paul and i even think his Mother? (first because she is a BG herself and secondly because well killing the mother of the KD is not something that will deepen a good relation xD) but they should have been smart enough to SEE (FUCKING SEEING IS THEIR ABILITY MORE OR LESS) that baron harkonnen is someone who cant be trusted (which is true since his plan for killing paul was smart) but that they the BG didnt see something like this coming... stupid as hell xD@@daniels7907
@@daniels7907 The problem was that the BG did not know that Jessica had given birth to a son instead of a daughter. Paul was only 12 when the events in Dune 1 took place and humans lived for much longer than today because of spice. The BG only found out that Jessica had disobeyed them when they came to tell Duke Leto about the move to Arrakis. Normally the BG would have 'recruited' the daughters. If they were told to bare sons, then those sons would be 'sampled' (produce a child for the BG with one of their sisters) as Feyd did with Lady Margot Fenring and then the sister would implant hypnotic orders in his brain to ensure that he would obey the BG no matter what. In case he became the Kwisatch and then they would arrange a marriage for him at a later date if he was to make an alliance with one of the Houses or even the throne.
@@WOTArtyNoobs - Among the appendices of the novel is a report that Jessica supposedly commissioned in an attempt to figure how the BGs screwed this up so badly. Considering the Jessica was supposed to produce a daughter who would then be mated to Feyd Ruatha-Harkonnen, which was supposed to produce the Kwisatz Haderach, it's rather odd that House Atriedes was not under closer observation by the BGs. Especially when 90 generations of eugenic breeding was so close to its intended goal. (As an aside, even more strange that planet-ruling nobles would settle for only one or two children.) The text also notes that Paul endured more pain during the test of humanity than *anybody* else on record (BGs included), and yet Mohiam made no mention of that fact in her report. Nor did she call attention to Paul being so advanced in BG training. The possibility that he might be the KH (only one generation early) was inexplicably overlooked. While the Spice can supposedly extend life, FH himself seemed to have forgotten this until the last two novels in the series. You will notice how it seems like the only people who have living grandparents don't know said grandparents (e.g. Paul didn't actually know Baron Harkonnen). From what we are shown of Houses Corrino, Atriedes, and Harkonnen, a typical noble house seems to only have two living generations at a time. So assassination must be *very* successful within the Imperium.
@@giantlobsterboy644 They haven't even stated if the Kynes in the movie is supposed to be Chiani's mother or not. I don't get the point of gender swapping the character at all.
@@reikun86I'm gonna take a guess and say that the gender swap for Kynes was an easy way to include more female characters in the movie without messing up the storyline as it doesn't really matter to the plot what gender the doctor is. I dont say this as some angry anti woke crusader assuming that any efforts to make films, TV and media in general more inclusive (include more characters who are not white men, especially if they are major or even main characters) is simply to meet diversity quotas and nothing to do with talent and how suitable said actors/actresses are for the roles. The original Dune books were written in the 1960s which was a very different time for women and ethnic minorities, whereas now there's a push towards more inclusion as naturally people want to see themselves represented in popular media and the tokanism and stereotypical characters we saw in the past (I.e. the angry black woman, the spicey latino and the black best friend rather than as a main character)simply wont do anymore. It doesn't always work though as if it's done badly or over the top tokanism but being more inclusive in how we create characters for shows and cast actors/actresses is definitely a hugely positive step forward with the character kynes being a perfect example of this.
@@benandjerrys338 I don’t care about the gender swap. I only care if they will acknowledge that Keynes is Chiani’s parent. (Father in the book, mother in the movie).
100% Correct Only Gaius Helen Mohiam knew Lady Jessica's links to Royal Houses. Hence why she called her the Royal Lady Jessica when Alia Atreides uses the voice on her when she gets her grandmother to tell everyone who Alia really is.
Actually, the novels never explicitly say that Mohiam was Jessica's mother. That was an idea that came from outside the novels. Which makes no sense, because if she were, then Jessica would have had access to *all* of Mohiam's memories after she underwent the Spice Agony, and thus would have known *everything* about the Bene Gesserit's true plans. As would Paul, Alia, Leto II and Ghanima, as well as later descendants.
@@AnnaBellaChannel - Herbert gained nothing from keeping that secret from readers once we were into Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Nor do the characters in-universe gain anything since Mohiam was part of a conspiracy against Paul. Being Paul's grandmother doesn't get Mohiam anything because she was never married to Baron Harkonnen, just as Jessica was not married to Leto. So they don't owe her any "family" recognition.
@@daniels7907 I beg to differ - I think that FH had intended her to be so in his novels, he just did not spell it out openly. For instance, Alia in the first book shows the ability to enter the minds of others, but she explains she can only do that with people who are "like her", meaning related to her by blood. She manages to do so with Paul and Jessica and also, perhaps NOT strangely enough, with Gaius Helen Mohiam, so they must be blood-related in some way. In any case, I do think this must have been known at least by the time the first movie was made (1984) due to an extended version of the scene in which Paul takes the water of life, part of which ended up on the cutting-room floor. In the movie as it was shown in the cinema, we see both Jessica and Alia being telepathically aware of him having done so, and as they are confronted with both their male and female lines of ancestry through him, they bleed from their noses from the impact. The extended version of the scene, however, includes a cut to Gaius Helen Mohiam lying on the floor and bleeding from her nose also, which means she is also telepathically aware of Paul having taken the water of life and is at this point confronted with her male line of ancestry also. This would only make sense if she is blood-related to the parties involved in this scene. In addition to that, the actress who plays Mohiam, in the first scene, gives off the impression that when she scolds Jessica for having disobeyed the commands of the Order, Mohiam is not as strict with Jessica as she ought to be as her superior sister - if you watch the scene and her manner closely, it almost seems as if she's sorry for having to tell Jessica that, and she even explicitly says she wishes she would be able to take the consequences of her actions away from her (that scene is still in the movie in full).
Of course, Duke Leto regrets not marrying his wife, Lady Jessica. Paul regrets not marrying his wife, Chani. It must have been very painful for everyone involved
Less so for Leto and Jessica, because their relationship was normal for Landsraad nobles, who usually married to create political alliances, not for love. More difficult for Chani and Princess Irulan. Chani, because she couldn't be Paul's wife. Irulan because Paul treated her like trash and made no secret of the fact that he only married her to legitimize his claim to the Golden Lion Throne even though he fathered no children on her. The Atreides and Corrino houses were ultimately joined by Ghanima and Farad'n.
Ghanima married her brother Leto the second to consolidate House Atreides' hold on the throne. It was done, so no one could wrest control from Leto the second by marrying Ghanima. Her consort was Farad'n Corrino, son of Wensicia Corrino & nephew of Irulan Corrino.
i think a better title would be why Leto Didn't marry Jessica. it's not that Leto himself was against the idea of marrying her, there were political advantages to seeming open even though Jessica was his only lover. Similarly, Paul married Princess Irulan for purely political purposes and had zero feelings for her; Paul's only love was his concubine Chani
As the child of a consort, Paul was only an heir presumptive. If Leto had married a daughter of the nobility and had another child, that child would have supplanted Paul and been named heir apparent.
Paul was the second born of Leto , who lost his first child to an act of betrayal & which led to the banishing of his wife & her mother , he was considering marriages when approached by the Bene Gesserit with an offer he could not refuse.
Do I think Leto could have married Jessica without backlash? - Well he *didn't* marry her and he was assassinated anyway. Would a marriage with Jessica truly have brought him an even swifter demise? We do not know. Fact is, Leto's way to lead wasn't perfect, since he got himself & so many of his own people killed. But, whether that had anything to do with marrying Jessica, or whether the fault was somewhere else (for instance, *not* marrying someone else to form better alliances) is written in the stars. Maybe Leto should've married Irulan, and that would have saved the Universe from his mad son. Idle thoughts :)
@@sthomas2592 - Which was strange, because Herbert forgot about the life-extending properties he assigned to the Spice. You would expect larger age differences in marriages if people live longer than normal. Especially in a hereditary aristocracy where marriages are more political than romantic. Leto marrying Jessica wouldn't have been controversial. Many members of the Landsraad, including the Emperor, were married to Bene Gesserit. Indeed, the entire purpose of the Landsraad was to provide the male half of the BG eugenic breeding program, although the BGs didn't talk about that fact. From Leto's point of view, he just didn't want to marry unless the marriage brought some real value for his House. Princess Irulan would have been hard to turn down.
I don't understand why Jessica's mother doesn't tell her who her father is because after Paul's test with the box she scolds Jessica's decision about having a male offspring and now they can't unite the houses by marriage being that both are male. But Jessica's father is the Baron and married to the Duke and that would have united the houses if her mother wasn't dumb.
Duke Leto never married Jessica because that way, he could always marry someone else for the reasons Paul marries Irulan. Duke Leto may never have married Jessica, but Jessica was his wife in his eyes & Duke Leto was her husband. The same as Paul & Chani. Paul is Chani's husband & Chani is Paul's wife.
In a courtyard in my childhood church cemetery that surrounded the cathedral the graves are very old. Having members of native American nations buried there. But most fascinating to me is a gravestone with the name of a woman "Beloved concubine of Dr. ......" I always teared up by the love, devotion this shone of public love for someone he wasn't married to. Forever in stone their names are together, not in shame. Most beloved ❤️
it was revealed in the first dune novel that Jessica was a daughter of Vladimir Harkonnen. she did not know till Paul told her, using his own mentat powers to deduce it I am reading this book at this time and rad this very thing just a few days ago
I think Leto knew that Jessica was a Harkonnen besides being a Bene Jeserit but kept it to himself and never married her but had a child with her ,A Boy !! Who will be the Duke one day and have the Power to Overcome and win the Holy War the War that his family has been fighting for Centuries !!!
100% Correct. Only Gaius Helen Mohiam knew Lady Jessica's links to Royal Houses. Hence why she called her the Royal Lady Jessica when Alia Atreides uses the voice on her when she gets her grandmother to tell everyone who Alia really is.
@@AnnaBellaChannel Is it correct, though? Does the book specify the Baron and the Duke being "first* cousins? Does Herbert provide an actual family tree? In noble circles, and for that matter in common parlance, "cousin" doesn't have to designate first cousins I think (I may be wrong) that Paul greets Feyd as "cousin." But they would not be first cousins, either.
@@marysueeasteregg The Baron is Paul's grandfather and Feyd is his Uncle. This makes them 2nd Cousins removed. In Noble circles all related family members are referred to as Cousins out of respect. Feyd is Paul mother's 1st cousin making him Paul's 2nd cousin removed.
I think Leto knew jessica she had adarker side to her and wh9 her teacher was.....the emperors truthssyer was her teachef....it's easy to see they only bred for more woman and men were discarded which kept him distant....plus each house has a bene gesserect marrying her would put the whole atreides military in the hands of witches....hmmmm that's easy to answer
There’s a conversation between them in the first book in which he actually regrets not marrying her. And he or she joke that because she is not the wife she doesn’t have to attend the boring estate dinners
To summarize (from the novel): Duke Leto needed to keep his options open for a political alliance marriage. Fortunately, children fathered on bound concubines are considered legitimate. So being unmarried didn't prevent him from having an heir. There, was that so hard?
If he marries someone from a Great House later and she has a son, will that son be the heir, or the the heir is still the first son?
@@samsun99 - I don't recall it being spelled out explicitly, but I believe that the answer is that the noble born wife's child would take precedence. Leto loves Jessica and Paul and this is implied to be the reason that he didn't actually make much effort to marry. Of course, the Bene Gesserit were likely running interference anyway. Their breeding program was already off-track. Paul was supposed to be a daughter.
Ironically, the BGs really lost control of the situation with Feyd dueling Paul to the death. Otherwise, Feyd might have ended up married to (or at least breeding with) Alia down the road. Nobles were supposed to live longer due to consumption of the Spice.
But, on the other hand, two Kwisatz Haderachs might have been extremely problematic.
@@samsun99Only if it's Leto's, and it never would be. It's a political arrangement only. It's made pretty clear that Leto is all about Jessica. Paul's relationship with Chani and Irulan is also the same way. He is married to Irulan and has nothing to do with her.
@@Kwisatz-Chaderach - Exactly, which is why Leto never actually married. It was enough to seem available for an alliance marriage. But he wasn't actively seeking a wife other than Jessica. You might notice the flimsy excuse that Shaddam IV makes to Irulan about her age difference with Leto. As if nobody ever marries somebody with a large age difference. In truth, he would *never* have allowed any of his daughters to marry Leto because that would put Leto in a position to claim the Golden Lion Throne. Paul only married Irulan for that exact reason.
mmm I still don’t understand. can you make an 8 minute video to explain it?
It's simple. He loved Jessica but needed to keep his options open for politcal marriages. Much like Paul did with Chani and Irulan.
Same with Leto II, Ghanima and Farad’n
I don't think Duke Leto Atreides knew about her lineage to House Harkonnen, even she wasn't aware of it. lol
Why you say that?
She was but not until late in the first book, she saw it in Paul's visions
This is one of the plot holes resulting from Herbert forgetting his own rules. Once Jessica underwent the Spice Agony and became a Reverend Mother, she would have know everything her female ancestors did, including the identity of her father.
But yes, Leto never knew. The Bene Gesserit made sure of that when they steered him towards her as a bound concubine.
He actually knew at some point. And had told confidante, including Idaho. In the book, there is a scene of Idaho letting this slip while drunk on spice liquor, freshly arrived on Arrakis.
That's right, he did know...And very likely Gaius Helen Mohiam knew too, especially in view of the later books, where she is revealed to be Jessica's actual mother. (It is my theory that this was also already the intention of Frank Herbert himself to make her so, even though he had not openly spelled that out in the books he wrote, but it does seem to have been the concept at the latest when David Lynch made his movie. ) Which in any case sheds an interesting light on her statement that Jessica was ordered to bear only daughters so that one of these daughters could be wed to an Harkonnen male to "seal the breach" between the two houses. If an alliance between the two houses was the aim, they could already quite comfortably have had that through Leto and Jessica, so what's the real deal? Not to mention that the union between the houses that the union that the BG did plan would result in the Kwisatz Haderach being inbred twice over? (Unless they thought that the genetic traits of Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen, who was the intended candidate, were considered to be valuable for some reason, which does seem to have been the case, otherwise they would not have sent Lady Margot Fenring to conceive a child with him to "secure the bloodline".) Leto Atreides II later realizes that in order to secure the Golden Path and the survival of the human race, he has to become a ruthless tyrant, so are we to assume that the BG knew this too and they thought incorporating Feyd's ruthlessness into the bloodline of the KH would help? (With the exception that a KH born of Feyd would just be ruthless no more, whereas Leto mainly is out of his love for humankind.) However, it's still weirder that the BG must have known (been presciently aware of) the fact that Jessica would disobey them and bring the KH one generation too early; otherwise their Missionaria Protectiva would not have planted that particular form of the Lisan Al Gaib legend on Arrakis...
"He acquired a concubine..."
I think it's the other way around, the Bene Gesserit acquired a Duke.
i think its amazing to think what a man leto was sinc HE just more or less convinced a bene gesserit to ditch their generation long plan and give him a male heir cause jessica loves him, in this aspect he was even more powerful than the emperor himself which i think acutally is a passage in the first book.
The reason that the Emperor feared Leto was because Leto was extremely popular and respected by the Landsraad. Also, the Bene Gesserit had ensured that Shaddam had no sons because they were planning to install their Kwisatz Haderach on the Golden Lion Throne. Ironically, though the KH was born a generation ahead of schedule, that is exactly what he ended up doing. Only without the BGs having him on a leash.
Which was why he was killed
yeah i know, read the first book and im at the second at like 1/3 progress or so ... but holy shit, if you think about the fact that the Bene Gesserit=BG did create and scheme this plan for MILLENIAS, and they knew that their was a not small possibility that paul was the KH, how stupid can they be... yeah they ordered harkonnen to not kill paul and i even think his Mother? (first because she is a BG herself and secondly because well killing the mother of the KD is not something that will deepen a good relation xD) but they should have been smart enough to SEE (FUCKING SEEING IS THEIR ABILITY MORE OR LESS) that baron harkonnen is someone who cant be trusted (which is true since his plan for killing paul was smart) but that they the BG didnt see something like this coming... stupid as hell xD@@daniels7907
@@daniels7907 The problem was that the BG did not know that Jessica had given birth to a son instead of a daughter. Paul was only 12 when the events in Dune 1 took place and humans lived for much longer than today because of spice. The BG only found out that Jessica had disobeyed them when they came to tell Duke Leto about the move to Arrakis. Normally the BG would have 'recruited' the daughters. If they were told to bare sons, then those sons would be 'sampled' (produce a child for the BG with one of their sisters) as Feyd did with Lady Margot Fenring and then the sister would implant hypnotic orders in his brain to ensure that he would obey the BG no matter what. In case he became the Kwisatch and then they would arrange a marriage for him at a later date if he was to make an alliance with one of the Houses or even the throne.
@@WOTArtyNoobs - Among the appendices of the novel is a report that Jessica supposedly commissioned in an attempt to figure how the BGs screwed this up so badly.
Considering the Jessica was supposed to produce a daughter who would then be mated to Feyd Ruatha-Harkonnen, which was supposed to produce the Kwisatz Haderach, it's rather odd that House Atriedes was not under closer observation by the BGs. Especially when 90 generations of eugenic breeding was so close to its intended goal.
(As an aside, even more strange that planet-ruling nobles would settle for only one or two children.)
The text also notes that Paul endured more pain during the test of humanity than *anybody* else on record (BGs included), and yet Mohiam made no mention of that fact in her report. Nor did she call attention to Paul being so advanced in BG training. The possibility that he might be the KH (only one generation early) was inexplicably overlooked.
While the Spice can supposedly extend life, FH himself seemed to have forgotten this until the last two novels in the series. You will notice how it seems like the only people who have living grandparents don't know said grandparents (e.g. Paul didn't actually know Baron Harkonnen). From what we are shown of Houses Corrino, Atriedes, and Harkonnen, a typical noble house seems to only have two living generations at a time. So assassination must be *very* successful within the Imperium.
“History will call us wives.”
It did
Leto kept himself single to seal an alliance with another great house. There! Explained in one sentence.
If half of these new fans read the book they would know this. Oh yeah. Liet Kynes was a man in the book. That woman sucked in the movie!
@@giantlobsterboy644 They haven't even stated if the Kynes in the movie is supposed to be Chiani's mother or not. I don't get the point of gender swapping the character at all.
@@reikun86I'm gonna take a guess and say that the gender swap for Kynes was an easy way to include more female characters in the movie without messing up the storyline as it doesn't really matter to the plot what gender the doctor is.
I dont say this as some angry anti woke crusader assuming that any efforts to make films, TV and media in general more inclusive (include more characters who are not white men, especially if they are major or even main characters) is simply to meet diversity quotas and nothing to do with talent and how suitable said actors/actresses are for the roles.
The original Dune books were written in the 1960s which was a very different time for women and ethnic minorities, whereas now there's a push towards more inclusion as naturally people want to see themselves represented in popular media and the tokanism and stereotypical characters we saw in the past (I.e. the angry black woman, the spicey latino and the black best friend rather than as a main character)simply wont do anymore. It doesn't always work though as if it's done badly or over the top tokanism but being more inclusive in how we create characters for shows and cast actors/actresses is definitely a hugely positive step forward with the character kynes being a perfect example of this.
@@benandjerrys338 I don’t care about the gender swap. I only care if they will acknowledge that Keynes is Chiani’s parent. (Father in the book, mother in the movie).
@@giantlobsterboy644 no she didn't suck, I thought he did an awesome job
Lady Jessica was the daughter of Baron Vladimir Harkonan and the Bene Jeserit Helen Mohiam
100% Correct Only Gaius Helen Mohiam knew Lady Jessica's links to Royal Houses. Hence why she called her the Royal Lady Jessica when Alia Atreides uses the voice on her when she gets her grandmother to tell everyone who Alia really is.
Actually, the novels never explicitly say that Mohiam was Jessica's mother. That was an idea that came from outside the novels. Which makes no sense, because if she were, then Jessica would have had access to *all* of Mohiam's memories after she underwent the Spice Agony, and thus would have known *everything* about the Bene Gesserit's true plans. As would Paul, Alia, Leto II and Ghanima, as well as later descendants.
@@daniels7907 Who said they don't but have the good sense not to let the cat put of the bag.
@@AnnaBellaChannel - Herbert gained nothing from keeping that secret from readers once we were into Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Nor do the characters in-universe gain anything since Mohiam was part of a conspiracy against Paul. Being Paul's grandmother doesn't get Mohiam anything because she was never married to Baron Harkonnen, just as Jessica was not married to Leto. So they don't owe her any "family" recognition.
@@daniels7907 I beg to differ - I think that FH had intended her to be so in his novels, he just did not spell it out openly. For instance, Alia in the first book shows the ability to enter the minds of others, but she explains she can only do that with people who are "like her", meaning related to her by blood. She manages to do so with Paul and Jessica and also, perhaps NOT strangely enough, with Gaius Helen Mohiam, so they must be blood-related in some way. In any case, I do think this must have been known at least by the time the first movie was made (1984) due to an extended version of the scene in which Paul takes the water of life, part of which ended up on the cutting-room floor. In the movie as it was shown in the cinema, we see both Jessica and Alia being telepathically aware of him having done so, and as they are confronted with both their male and female lines of ancestry through him, they bleed from their noses from the impact. The extended version of the scene, however, includes a cut to Gaius Helen Mohiam lying on the floor and bleeding from her nose also, which means she is also telepathically aware of Paul having taken the water of life and is at this point confronted with her male line of ancestry also. This would only make sense if she is blood-related to the parties involved in this scene. In addition to that, the actress who plays Mohiam, in the first scene, gives off the impression that when she scolds Jessica for having disobeyed the commands of the Order, Mohiam is not as strict with Jessica as she ought to be as her superior sister - if you watch the scene and her manner closely, it almost seems as if she's sorry for having to tell Jessica that, and she even explicitly says she wishes she would be able to take the consequences of her actions away from her (that scene is still in the movie in full).
Of course, Duke Leto regrets not marrying his wife, Lady Jessica. Paul regrets not marrying his wife, Chani. It must have been very painful for everyone involved
Less so for Leto and Jessica, because their relationship was normal for Landsraad nobles, who usually married to create political alliances, not for love. More difficult for Chani and Princess Irulan. Chani, because she couldn't be Paul's wife. Irulan because Paul treated her like trash and made no secret of the fact that he only married her to legitimize his claim to the Golden Lion Throne even though he fathered no children on her. The Atreides and Corrino houses were ultimately joined by Ghanima and Farad'n.
Ghanima married her brother Leto the second to consolidate House Atreides' hold on the throne. It was done, so no one could wrest control from Leto the second by marrying Ghanima. Her consort was Farad'n Corrino, son of Wensicia Corrino & nephew of Irulan Corrino.
i think a better title would be why Leto Didn't marry Jessica. it's not that Leto himself was against the idea of marrying her, there were political advantages to seeming open even though Jessica was his only lover. Similarly, Paul married Princess Irulan for purely political purposes and had zero feelings for her; Paul's only love was his concubine Chani
As the child of a consort, Paul was only an heir presumptive. If Leto had married a daughter of the nobility and had another child, that child would have supplanted Paul and been named heir apparent.
Paul was the second born of Leto , who lost his first child to an act of betrayal & which led to the banishing of his wife & her mother , he was considering marriages when approached by the Bene Gesserit with an offer he could not refuse.
Do I think Leto could have married Jessica without backlash? - Well he *didn't* marry her and he was assassinated anyway. Would a marriage with Jessica truly have brought him an even swifter demise? We do not know. Fact is, Leto's way to lead wasn't perfect, since he got himself & so many of his own people killed. But, whether that had anything to do with marrying Jessica, or whether the fault was somewhere else (for instance, *not* marrying someone else to form better alliances) is written in the stars. Maybe Leto should've married Irulan, and that would have saved the Universe from his mad son. Idle thoughts :)
the emperor actually was sorry that Irulan wasn't old enough to marry Leto when he was looking for a wife.
@@sthomas2592 - Which was strange, because Herbert forgot about the life-extending properties he assigned to the Spice. You would expect larger age differences in marriages if people live longer than normal. Especially in a hereditary aristocracy where marriages are more political than romantic.
Leto marrying Jessica wouldn't have been controversial. Many members of the Landsraad, including the Emperor, were married to Bene Gesserit. Indeed, the entire purpose of the Landsraad was to provide the male half of the BG eugenic breeding program, although the BGs didn't talk about that fact. From Leto's point of view, he just didn't want to marry unless the marriage brought some real value for his House. Princess Irulan would have been hard to turn down.
I don't understand why Jessica's mother doesn't tell her who her father is because after Paul's test with the box she scolds Jessica's decision about having a male offspring and now they can't unite the houses by marriage being that both are male. But Jessica's father is the Baron and married to the Duke and that would have united the houses if her mother wasn't dumb.
Duke Leto never married Jessica because that way, he could always marry someone else for the reasons Paul marries Irulan. Duke Leto may never have married Jessica, but Jessica was his wife in his eyes & Duke Leto was her husband. The same as Paul & Chani. Paul is Chani's husband & Chani is Paul's wife.
In a courtyard in my childhood church cemetery that surrounded the cathedral the graves are very old. Having members of native American nations buried there. But most fascinating to me is a gravestone with the name of a woman "Beloved concubine of Dr. ......" I always teared up by the love, devotion this shone of public love for someone he wasn't married to. Forever in stone their names are together, not in shame. Most beloved ❤️
Can you guys go in depth on cole cash/grifter thats a childhood favorite
it was revealed in the first dune novel that Jessica was a daughter of Vladimir Harkonnen.
she did not know till Paul told her, using his own mentat powers to deduce it
I am reading this book at this time and rad this very thing just a few days ago
I think Leto knew that Jessica was a Harkonnen besides being a Bene Jeserit
but kept it to himself and never married her but had a child with her ,A Boy !! Who will be the Duke one day and have the Power to Overcome and win the Holy War the War that his family has been fighting for Centuries !!!
LMAO, why does he have a pug in the 80's version of Dune?
Because that version was just plain weird.
lady jessica was baron harkonans daughter
Thanks
I thought the lady Jessica was Baron Harkonnen daughter and Duke Atreides niece since the Baron and the Duke were actually cousins?
100% Correct. Only Gaius Helen Mohiam knew Lady Jessica's links to Royal Houses. Hence why she called her the Royal Lady Jessica when Alia Atreides uses the voice on her when she gets her grandmother to tell everyone who Alia really is.
@@AnnaBellaChannel Is it correct, though? Does the book specify the Baron and the Duke being "first* cousins? Does Herbert provide an actual family tree?
In noble circles, and for that matter in common parlance, "cousin" doesn't have to designate first cousins I think (I may be wrong) that Paul greets Feyd as "cousin." But they would not be first cousins, either.
@@marysueeasteregg The Baron is Paul's grandfather and Feyd is his Uncle. This makes them 2nd Cousins removed. In Noble circles all related family members are referred to as Cousins out of respect. Feyd is Paul mother's 1st cousin making him Paul's 2nd cousin removed.
Why doesn't anyone care what happened with Leto Atreide's pug dog? We see him everywhere except for the new Dune.
I think Leto knew jessica she had adarker side to her and wh9 her teacher was.....the emperors truthssyer was her teachef....it's easy to see they only bred for more woman and men were discarded which kept him distant....plus each house has a bene gesserect marrying her would put the whole atreides military in the hands of witches....hmmmm that's easy to answer
100% Leto knew Gaius Helen Mohiam game.
No backlash. Maybe no advantage.
There’s a conversation between them in the first book in which he actually regrets not marrying her. And he or she joke that because she is not the wife she doesn’t have to attend the boring estate dinners
Because he actually loved her
Woot Corey!
She wouldn’t have ever married the Duke, she knew the reasons, including the B. G plans.
There would’ve been some pissed off people😮😂, but they would’ve made an amazing power couple❤❤
*After watching dune 2* like father like son -_-
Its duke LEE-TOE and its AIR (heir) not HAIR...jeebus bro
Spoiler; Now that we know Lady Jessica is the Baron's daughter, would that make Paul the Duke of both Attriedes and Harkonnen?
I pity anyone who needed this video to understand.
No thinking machines
I don't need to be a Bene Gesserit to sense the tension in the comments.
This is entirely why the ending of Dune 2 is totally stupid.
Because hes fn smart.
I thought the main theory was Jessica was Gaius Hellen’s daughter after she was raped by Vladimir
Leave my wife alone.
Considering who her parents were, not a surprise. After all what her mother did to gain a girl child.