Okay. I love this. After watching Hamilton I got swept up on the genius of the music and the performances and have kind of left it in that world for a while because with theatre there’s always this suspended disbelief...That being said. Now that I’ve had time away from it I’m looking at it like I’m looking at a lot of television/film where they’re giving us the ILLUSION of awareness/equity/accountability/diversity but they’re...not really saying anything. It’s all about good intentions without doing THE work. I think of Bridgerton as a recent example. It’s all Brunch. Thank you for your content. Can’t wait to see more of your vids!!
I think Hamilton is definitely one of those cases of getting your foot in the door IMO. The actor who played Hercules Mulligan talked about how many people rode off the show as being a failure because they didn't see anyone connecting with the idea that Miranda had in mind but it in fact became a huge success despite the tribulations they faced for the first couple of years. I know that by today so I may see it as being moderate, but it has led to more black actors getting a chance to tell more provoking stories on theater and using POC instead of relying on the same Caucasian actors in their mid-50s
As a theatre graduate, i agree and disagree. This is always why i preferred plays to musicals; the suspension of disbelief is used as a tool explore themes that aren't easily explained or understood. Like there's alot of big musicals from post 1950s that are just consumerist and virtue signalling rather than actually doing the work. Like, the writer by Ella hickson vs something like cats. It's just not comparable, ones about the entertainment factor, ones about the intellectual discussion behind the words.
it is still wild to me that in a show about raising up immigrant/PoC narratives they give Hercules Mulligan all the credit for being a cool spy when a lot of the work was actually done by his slave, Cato.
another really interesting component of Hamilton's morality is its material impact. after it came onto the cultural zeitgeist, the orphanage that gets shouted at the end? began receiving tons more traffic, and were able to adopt out/foster tons more children. that's undeniably a good thing, and wouldn't have come about without Hamilton's existence. just another neat morality perspective to think about!
Also, I literally get to the same conclusion by the end of most of my videos. “Here’s all this stuff, here are my thoughts, I don’t friggen know...thanks for watching.” Subscribed!
hamilton will always be a little complicated to me, lin manuel miranda’s work will always mean a lot to me despite some of the issues with how fast theatre becomes dated, i was a young teen with adhd when it came out and it immediately became a huge hyperfixation for me, and i could probably recite it off by heart, i’m now studying history and archaeology and definitely can see the glaring issues of personal interpretation/bias in hamilton, but damn if lin didn’t made me cry as a young first generation latino with In The Heights, and helpless/satisfied is genuine beauty of theatre idk at the very least i’m glad this show introduced me way back to artists like daveed diggs, jonathan groff, renee elise golds berry and more, like finding clppng and she’s gotta have it (with anthony ramos) through hamilton was lowkey worth it. anyways this was a really great video and your makeup looks awesome!
My long-standing take on Hamilton is that it's similar to when a theatre does an all-black cast of a show that has traditionally only cast white actors; or doing an all-women cast of a show that usually only has male roles. It's fun and interesting and can certainly expose more about the text by doing so (the "text" in this metaphor is the US history of the founding fathers, not the text of Hamilton the musical), but it doesn't erase the problems with the original text, or the problems with how the text is typically performed. Mainly what it does is allow folks of a demographic who systemically don't get as many roles to really shine. And that's alright, but it isn't revolutionary. I do think the sheer popularity of Hamilton has caused it to grow beyond the scope of theatre nerds in a way that few other recent shows have, and I do imagine that non-theatre folks may not have the kind of context around such "divisive casting" versions of shows to really get all this easily, though.
I think Hamilton also intentionally billed itself as something more than a non-traditionally cast show, as well. It's got all the look-at-me self-congratulatory progressivism of changing Hamlet's pronouns to they/them and saying you've "fixed" Shakespeare. And I think you're right in that a lot non-theatre folk haven't been around for these casting discussions and don't have the context or background to help them see through that.
@@lil-lionryan I don't disagree on the self-congradulatory billing, but I don't know that it's much different than what most theatres often do with "interesting casting choices." I know at least in my experience marketing departments have tried to oversell this kind of stuff in my shows at the barest of opportunities, and it's an uphill battle to get them to stop.
Sorry to reply to a 4 month old comment, but here goes. The problem with Hamilton isn't inherent to the text, at least how I see it. If you see it for what it is - a fun ahistorical narrative about characters very loosely based off of real life - then it's not that problematic. The problem presents itself in how white wealthy liberals responded to Hamilton, and then how Lin Manuel Miranda used that response to further monetize the project. White liberals really did see Hamilton as revolutionary, as a sort of redemptive vision of American history. Instead of seeing Hamilton as an explicitly ahistorical narrative, they saw it as a presentation of what America should be, and (according to Liberals) fundamentally is, if you cut out all the Bad People (conservatives and rural folk). It allowed white people to look at American history guilt free, without the burden of all the truly horrific shit going on at the time. That's why they loved it, it appealed to White sensibilities that perhaps America is at its heart a good country, with origins not drenched in the blood of PoC, natives, and the working class, but actually a force for good. And that's a lie.
@@trombonegamer14 I think it misses the scope to limit it to liberals who have done and continue to do this. All kinds of white folks find comfort within the faux revolutionary tone of the musical. But what you are talking about absolutely is a thing that has happened and keeps happening. I don't think it's terribly useful to talk about these things as not being inherent to the text; context - especially social context - are often more important for understanding a work. No text is written in a vacuum, and no text becomes popular in a vacuum. It's one thing to decry or be frustrated at the lack of theatrical context that the wider audience has - as I did in the OP - but that doesn't override the actual narrative between that wider audience and the text that you are touching on in your comment. It's sad that folks don't have the context of understanding the theatrical traditions this plays on....but also if they understood that context it's very possible that the musical would not have been as popular as it has become. It's popular because lots of white folks found it's faux revolutionary tone comforting in absolving them of guilt for perpetuating the systems of harm. And because of that dialogue existing between the wider audience and the text, it has become part of the text and cannot be ignored.
no but actually yes but does me commenting two different times negate that? does it somehow cancel the other out? or does it further prove my support? and does a reply even count as a comment??
"I'm biased towards art--I like good art. I like it so much, I can't stop liking it and it seems like on a gut level more than I don't like morally dubious things, I seem to like art." Bro you put my whole life into words
Also, having now finished the video (sorry just got excited to see someone with a similar take on Hamilton) I also find myself in that same difficult space of loving good art more than bad art that doesn't offend me with it's existence or subtext etc. As a cis het male (who grew up in Chicago on R Kelly and Bill Cosby...I'm old) Im extra skiddish about managing that paradox. And much like you... i really don't fucking know
Wow, I love your videos! So glad to see you here! I'm definitely not able to speak on the representation in Hamilton too well, but I think the reception of movies like the barbie movie make it even stranger that people have turned to hate it so. Barbie is in fact, pretty regressive in its takes, removing any mention of intersectionality from the idea of feminism and such. I still love the movie, but it's extremely flawed and people need to ignore that to like the movie for some reason. While I don't think it's perfectly comparable to Hamilton by a long shot, I think it's notable that both lack nuance on the coverage of racism for the sake of a fun good time, and at the very least Hamilton was actually made by a Puerto Rican man who grew up in the Bronx. He isn't unaware of America's history of racist discrimination, it's just not in Hamilton. That doesn't make it okay, but I don't think that makes Hamilton irredeemable. It's strange to defend that I do artistically like Hamilton, without any mention that I defend it on a critical level, and get accused of ignoring racism. You can have a nuanced opinion on a thing you like. No idea if this makes any sense, sorry for going on a rant ! I'm bad at staying on topic I like tangents
i’ve always thought hamilton is an amazing piece of art but a tonal nightmare. i think it has a superficial ‘woke’ message it wants to give and no idea how to. they drop in so many throw away lines about how ‘hamilton and eliza and john laurens worked so hard to stop slavery!!!!’ and then in the act 2 opener, they just drop in a mention of sally hemmings, a woman enslaved to thomas jefferson, as if she’s his secretary or something???? just reads as them using slavery to create an image of how these characters were actually brilliant, compassionate people when that’s not the case.
Hello, being forced to reconsider my appreciation of Hamilton in this way is exactly what I need and exactly what I hate. I am biased towards Hamilton for what it is and what it did but you're hella right about every part of this video. Ouch. Here's my day of existential reconsidering. Also, screw JK Rowling.
Honestly Hamilton would be so much better if it didn’t mention race at all, it’s like the vampire diaries, being centered around racism without offering anything meaningful.
me in my bisexual world, once tried to sit on a stool with my leg crossed under me. i toppled to the floor. badly. moral of the story: if bisexual avoid stools
I feel like the song they cut from the musical really goes well with the "I'm looking forward to reading the stories you write" line. The third cabinet debate, where the mood is incredibly dark, they straight-up discuss the issues with slave owners having to let go of their workers and how Jefferson and Madison sympathise with the notion that slavery and racism is bad, but still find a justification for keeping things the way they are right now. I feel like the most powerful line is the last one, Washington saying something like "let's hope the future generation thinks of something better" as the background music fades out into the ticking of a clock. It's just chilling, but the fact that it was cut has a meaning of its own.
I think about this cut song when people bring up their issues with Hamilton, too. I remember when I first heard it, back when I was in my first Hamilton hype, I was like oh my god why did they cut this! It's fire AND it actually addresses some of the most egregious crimes of these historical characters, in way that's a little more substantial than the few nods towards slavery present in the finished product. Then I thought about it and realised that it basically wouldn't have contributed to any of the main big themes/tensions/conflicts of the show, which as stated in the video are things like legacy, ambition, the immigrant struggle etc. Which then got me thinking about whether it is okay at all to make a story about slave owners that isn't ABOUT slavery in any meaningful way, and if no, then what implications that might have for a number of other stories out there.
Imo (I’m Asian, not black or brown or indigenous so definitely not speaking for/over people who fit into those categories) I think it’s ok to enjoy Hamilton and other pieces of work like Hamilton as long as you realize and comprehend that this is a rosy look at what the Founding Fathers were like and there are MAJOR creative liberties taken. Again, just my opinion☺️
I agree completely. I'm a biracial woman (black and Croatian) and I sincerely love Hamilton- it's not part of my identity like it is with some people, but I do listen to it in the car and when I'm doing housework- but I'm also extremely concious of the fact that LMM cast black men as people who would have owned them, and whitewashed/brushed over a _lot_ of their misdeeds to make them seem more sympathetic. The very first time I heard the opening number, I had to pause and say aloud "Psh, I'd like to see how Hamilton would've accomplished all this if he had been born black or a woman". It's American exceptionalism propaganda, plain and simple... but so are lots of things. Marvel movies are propapganda too, but we should still be allowed to enjoy them while remaining cognizant of the fact that what we're enjoying isn't an accurate reflection of reality.
@@Silburific I totally agree. Regarding marvel being propaganda though, I totally agree but have you seen the newest series Falcon and the Winter a Soldier? For the first time ever (that I’m aware of anyway, not a fan), they’re actually addressing real issues within our country and painting the US in a far more realistic and bleak light. I was so happy to see it for the sake of future generations growing up with this version of Marvel.
@@Silburific "American exceptionalism propaganda"...that's really the perfect phrase for it. I'll admit, I can't speak on the accuracy of which Hamilton portrays American history, I don't know american history. However, as a Canadian, the American exceptionalism propaganda seemed very blatant to me. I kept thinking "okay, take a step back, your not THAT great" XD. It also struck me as weird that every character seemed to love or respect Hamilton from a narrative point. It was a if Hamilton (main character Hamilton) wrote the play as a self insert, if that makes sense. Also I feel like every time they say "how does a bastard son blah blah blah become blah blah blah" the answer you were supposed to read between the lines was "because america is great and gives equal opportunity to everyone!!!". Overall, I think I like Hamilton but these things really stuck out to me as well. Its also a great reminder to not glorify Canada either.
@@victoriap1649 marvel actually does this quite a bit (in the comics though), I really hope they bring more of the realistic themes into the movies. Like with X-men, the entire thing is a metaphor for several marginalized groups trying to deal with their oppression. They have yet to be added to the MCU, but it'd really be a wonderful addition if they want to keep the ball rolling (Considering Storm/Ororo is a black woman and a main character, she alone could drive some kind of plot) But they've already kinda fucked up America Chavez by casting her light skin when comic America is dark skin, so my hopes aren't super high
I absolutely agree with everything you said! I just also wanted to point out another positive result from Hamilton: it opened doors for a lot of POC in a very upperclass white industry. I know a lot of kids of color who were inspired to pursue musical theatre because of Hamilton. If a better show had done the same thing, that would be better, but Hamilton’s what ended up doing it, and I think that’s important to recognize. Also, musical theatre, especially Broadway, is a really classist medium in a lot of ways. How you *seen* the price of Broadway tickets? Too many musicals portray the lives of poor people and sell it for rich people’s enjoyment. Most kids or poor people or people who don’t live in America or disabled people (a lot of theaters still aren’t fully accessible!) have to rely on shitty bootlegs to see their favorite shows. In that respect, I really admire how LMM worked so hard to make his musical so accessible. Even though he took a bit to do it, the fact he released a proshot at all is HUGE, and the fact it was successful will go a long way towards other musicals also getting released that way. TLDR: as a theatre nerd, I don’t love Hamilton but it achieved a lot for making the art form more accessible, and I have to admire that.
I love hamilton, i have adhd and immediately hyperfixated on it, but like you said: it's great as long it's seen as a fictional piece and not historically accurate. I love all roles but i know that many of them were probably shitty people. Im also not american, i have no history with america, so maybe it's easier for me to disconnect hamilton from actual american history.
it honestly disturbs me that i can find such an amazing creator so (seemingly) randomly. started watching your vids a couple hours ago and fully love your channel now, can’t wait to continue watching tomorrow and after. worries me, how many incredible creators am i missing because #algorithm
your bisexual energy is ✨radiating✨ in this video your thoughts are always so sporadic and unapologetic and even though my brain can’t keep up with yours, i’ve always loved that about you. i’ve always been one to appreciate art for being good art even with a tragic backstory but the way you word it sounds so much better lmao
All I know is that it actually made me care about history. I loved the musical, so I learned all the lyrics. Then I watched videos about it which taught me about what in Hamilton was incorrect and what actually happened during the time of Alexander Hamilton. In my history class I dont learn anything.
Reason's why I love your video. 1. The way you analyzed this topic so effortlessly like bro I want to be like you because you are brilliant. 2. Your eye shadow game is on point pretty please drop your palette. 3. You sit like L from Deathnote and that brings me comfort.
My issue with Hamilton Discourse™️ is that it often erases the presence of Latin American artistry and the experience of immigration. I think it’s clear that Lin saw himself in the story of a hungry and ambitious immigrant, and in pursuing that concept, ended up with MAJOR blind spots (you know... like women. And Black people.) A lot of the discourse around the show boils down to “a white take on American history” when it really should be viewed through the lens of “an immigrant take on American history”. There is room to explore the way immigrant families (like mine) hold a complex relationship with America, both romantic and contemptuous. I think I’m partial to the show because I was so desperate for the success of Latin representation on Broadway when it came out. We’re not even from the same country! I’m Argentinian and Lin is Puerto Rican to my knowledge. But Broadway has an under representation problem and we were taking what we could get.
This is quite literally me. Down to not being from the same country I'm Mexican! And yet Lin being successful makes me feel happy. And represented because he is known for writing about the immigrant experience. Which is something me and my family have experienced here in the U.S to our own extent
He isnt an immigrant. He's a rich boy that grew up in NY, barely ever set foot on PR and is incredibly out of touch with his own people. The political situation is complex for us, but basically all PRicans are born with US citizenship because the US erased the concept of a PR nation-state, and thus we have no PR citizenship. Lin Manuel suffered no hardships, no insurmountable challenges, to get where he is. No wonder he identified with Hamilton, a rich son of a platation owner that "suffered" through immigration. Materialistically, there would have been no difference in his life if he had grown up here on the island or in the US.
Recommended read for those looking for more like this video: Tricia Rose's _The Hip Hop Wars_ . She touches on the controversy surrounding the genre (and Black music in general) through its history, and goes pretty in-depth about enjoying catchy music with problematic themes. In her words, "Beware the Manipulation of the Funk." Can't recommend it highly enough. Rose is one of those rare people whose writing is absorbing because of its academic rigor, not in spite of it. It's like if a video essay were a regular essay.
I feel like a lot of historical shows have this flaw. The weight of suffering that has happened in the past is too heavy to carried all the time though. It's a hard one to me, even more so when we choose to ignore the pain we end up reopening the wounds without knowing it.
"Racism was over, you remember that??" Hahahaha fuck, you right Also im really enjoying watching this right after your objectivity in art criticism video, you were dropping lore hints into the cjthex universe and we didn't even realize
Hamilton reminds me of a power fantasy. You may feel weak or stupid or have no friends or whatever problem you have and instead of doing long hard work that needs to be done every day you can just read/watch a power fantasy and feel as if you've solved your problems. Just like how I listen to sad music and it makes me feel like I've worked out my emotional problems (spoiler: I haven't). It's quick and you don't have to do any real work (: So for Hamilton, it's like most of us know the U.S. is riddled with problems but instead of facing that we watch a musical that makes us proud to be American. We feel an artificial satisfaction and don't do anything of substance.
i have trouble enjoying hamilton now due to how blindly i adored it in middle school. letting it have such massive influence over me at a young age led me to make bad choices like idolize the actual historical figures. it took me years to break down that perception and realize they were all bad people by my standards. i do attack hamilton from time to time for its negatives (stolen choreography, lip service, etc), but much of what makes me dislike hamilton is the surrounding culture and fandom, not the show itself.
Which is such an interesting point, because I had a different experience with the show when I was in my adoring phase. I was a senior in hs when Hamilton dropped but I didn’t fully listen to the show until the next year when I was in college. I think the ages of the viewers/listeners (obvi, ofc) really influenced what the general public got out of it. And not saying that you being younger and not fully educated meant that you weren’t/could be aware of historical perspectives, but when I was in middle school I had only taken one American history class. By the time I was graduated and listened to Hamilton, I had taken THREE (because they repeat the course, adding and expanding on information as we age through public school), AND was also taking an American Revolution course in university. I got to vote for the first time, and the whole thing was magical to me. I knew the actual historical figures ain’t shit, in fact, they’re stupid. All of them. Like you said! They ALL did something-multiple things-that were horrific. And they don’t fit to my standards, either. Now, I’m a fully grown adult. Those years in between-I saw the “fandom and surrounding culture” change, as well as my own personal opinions, and I completely agree with you. It’s not always necessarily “the show itself” I’m not really sure what point I was trying to make with this long rant, but I wanted you to know I appreciated what you had to say!
I think casting an entire POC cast to tell a white story was a good thing to do. It has certain meanings and metaphors that are healing. But it is not the only thing that needs to happen, we do also need diverse stories and histories cast with racial accuracy. So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Hamilton, it just didn’t solve every problem. And that’s ok!
Khadija sent me... bro we are saying very similar things. I have 2 videos on hamilton (my very first video...it's very rough technically so brace yourself) and we make similar points. You had me at the Bioshock reference. subbed!
Hamilton accomplished what it set out to do: be the story of America Then told by America Now. I never got the vibe that it was some kind of icon of progressivism, beyond having a really diverse cast. I agree that if you’re looking to Hamilton as a big breakthrough in social commentary, it’s gonna disappoint you. But (afaik) it was never trying to be that in the first place.
At this point I've binged all you videos and I'm fascinated with your communicative abilities. You talk like my mind flows and its fucking incredible, and I lowkey feel seen by your content? keep up the god tier work you absolute king
jeanise borat bit reminded me of the provoked improv in one way or another by sara gomez u might be into it! basically the main characters act “in character” at their jobs (school teacher/factory worker) and the filming process takes place under the guise of documentary, so the interactions in the workplace are “true” for the supporting characters (like several scenes where the protagonist has meetings with kids’ mothers and then debriefs with her coworkers) but (kinda) fiction for the filmmakers.
5:54 !! Yes! I love this approach! Add something to the cause but ultimately progress beyond it! I see people tearing down so many things I like -- Rick Riordan's books, for example, had pretty clumsy indigenous representation -- but at the time it was _an_ effort. I recognize those problems, I still really enjoyed those books when I was a kid, and I look forward to the book that outdoes it.
I think at the time it felt like a progressive work of art, but now we've moved past it and it doesn't seem like it anymore, which is a good thing. I mean, I remember when I watched the play in 2015, 15 year old me was impressed by the cast diversity and the sort of "feminist" songs I could quote with my friends all the time. It was a different time. And now, with Black lives matter, it's obvious that we've moved past it. I'm impressed that Hamilton managed to go from a progressive looking play in my eyes, to an outdated work of art in just 6 years.
i feel like some people watched hamilton and truly took a lot of history from that show and were disappointed that it wasnt true. (and im not talking about the poc cast, i mean that the characters are often v detatched from their historical counterparts) the show has never not been a fantasy, and sometimes i wonder if the cringe felt towards hamilton now is actually self-cringe felt by people who loved indulging in that fantasy during obama era fun times, but theyve since learned about, accepted, and are now actively fighting against an america that has always been and still is deeply racist. ive studied a lot about the american revolution, it was a big hyperfixation from 2015-2018 and i really didnt get sucked into hamilton before i already knew a lot of details about the founding and the morality and personalities of the founders (i read a giant biography about jefferson in highschool and study american history in college for gods sake thats how deep i was in this). and what im getting at is that its always so weird to hear takes NOW that "hamilton is trying to put rose colored glasses on americas history!" because if you know enough about the actual history, you already know the whole thing is filled with and relies on inaccuracy, from the perspectives/motivations of the characters to their actual personalities (historical jefferson was quiet, uncharismatic, and awkward, for instance), and you can just suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story and the music. i already went in realizing that the whole thing was an inaccurate fantasy and a way for lin to project a self-starter latinx immigrant story and claim that narrative through hamiltons life story, which like good for him (in other words, to say its a story about black folks is inaccuate from the get go, the story is about lin seeing a figure that mirrors him in american mythology/history and quite literally putting himself in those shoes) either way, producing a broadway musical intended to employ people of color is cool too! the story isnt truth, its OBVIOUS, esp now when being able to buy into the fantasy that hamilton provides is so foreign. its always been a fantasy, and honestly thats fine if you watch it and accept the truth in the back of your mind.
10:49 an interesting thing about making an American history based musical where the main characters are deeply unlikable, but still making an interesting show, is... it kinda exists. Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson. That show had its fair share of problems and things it definitely didn’t handle well, but it is very interesting to see a show that came out in 2009 that could easily be mistaken as a trump-era parody of a show like Hamilton (albeit with music that definitely sounds right out of the emo/pop punk phase of 2006-10)
this guy has absolutely nailed the art of being able to criticize a piece of work but still being able to enjoy it ..... god i strive to be that therapized ily CJ ❤️
As an southern european to me personally Hamilton always seemed to be too much of an american product; and of course it's from the USA, but I feel that some movies, shows, novels, etc... appeal a lot to their culture (not saying it's bad, this would include Marvel for example) so many time it doesn't translate to well to people who havent adopted these standarts. Hope it makes sense.
I don’t have an answer for myself about what to do with morally questionable art. There are some things I’m 100% with just dropping from my life and not supporting. But other things I’m still figuring out where I draw the line.
You're really talented and I hope you keep on making videos, because I'm really excited to see what you make in the future and watch your channel grow.
I think, I’ve definitely felt this before. I’ve adored art that was... morally reprehensible, and I often think about what that means about me. Not all of the art I enjoy is good, maybe it just scratches a particularly niche. I can still appreciate good art, but you know, I don’t always. Either way, what does it say about me that I enjoy these things? Should I not question it, because it’s only art? Or does it need to be questioned. Does my enjoyment of these things need to be examined? Probably, on some level, like with all art. I don’t really know where I was going with this. Anyways this video is great.
This is an incredible video. Love to hear your commentary, it brings up that age old question of “can you separate the art from the artist?” Thank you for your insight!!
I watched Hamilton last July when it was on Disney+ and my initial feelings were that it was shallow and a little unsettling. I struggled to find anyone online sharing an critiques on Hamilton.
I am huge Hamilton fan and this was the first opposing video essay I could agree to. This wasn’t a mindless attack or blind support. This was just amazing!!
There's a thing my friend Joe said to me a while ago "fascism is obsessed with ascetics." and I think it's relevant here. Hamilton, and liberalism as an ideology, is built on the ascetics of progressivism without the meaning of progressivism.
I think the interesting thing is that in many ways it did break barriers in an industry that is predominantly Caucasian. It's just that people are re-evaluating it with knowledge of the present
really happy the youtube gods allowed this video to appear in my feed, been loving watching through your interesting video essays, make up game is on point, and you got a really enjoyable energy. I am 100% certain you're channel is going to blow tf up someday soon. BEN FROM CANADA GOT IT COMIN
This is the offspring of Oscar Isaac and Cosmonaut Variety Hour, pass it on. I've been watching your videos all afternoon and subscribed from the first one. I'm in love with the passion and love you have for art and analysing it, explaining why and how each thing is the way it is and how it resonates with you on a personal level. Your energy is refreshing and we're all here to vibe with your vibes. Your inability to sit straight on a chair is validating all of us fellow bisexuals. I've got to say, I am one video away from starting wearing gay colourful eye make up to school every day because I only have two months left in high school and to be fair, there's no real reason not to do that [and perhaps keep doing so after I've graduated. Life is meaningless - I can do whatever I want with it]. Thanks for inspiring me to become an empress and realise that my purpose is to follow your steps and finally start my quest for global domitation. Also, to answer your question, I am pro murder. Especially if it's in the name of defending your chocolate. [[To anyone that hasn't already, folks do yourselves a favor and check his Spotify out, this guy has way too few liseners for the gems he makes]]. Thank you for sharing your love of art with the world. We're all here for that and your amazing earrings✨✨
for me, hamilton was a foot in the door to leftism, a gateway to the aggressively unapologetically progressive politics i hold today. i feel like i outgrew it, but it was an important forward step for me as a teenager. and i met a lot of people through the fandom, including my first sort-of queer sort-of relationship. it also served as a bridge between me and my viciously conservative mom, at a time when we had very little to connect over. we listened to the soundtrack on long car rides, we visited historical sites and talked about the musical's references to those sites, etc, and she liked it so much that she even read the biography it was based on. she chose to connect with her daughter by emotionally and academically investing into this musical that i was obsessed with, and that engagement led _her_ to a lot of actual black and brown stories told by black and brown authors. her reaction to the 2020 BLM resurgence was so different than it would have been without hamilton's impact on her. i attended protests with her knowledge and blessing. she read more books about history and racism by more black authors. being mixed-race, i agree with the points you make in this video. i tend to wrinkle my nose at the story's overall cultural impact, and i tend to skirt away from white hamilton fans when they start saying the most white liberal shit i've ever heard. but i also have this story about it. shit's complicated as usual smh very annoying
Found your channel recently. This is my favorite video I've seen so far because it encapsulates the weird position that occurs with problematic art. Thank you for your time and thoughts.
I watched Hamilton for the first time when it was dropped on Disney + and you just articulated everything I felt when watching it in a way I could never
I came to you via the algorithm but knowing Khadija is a fan is just...wow. That's like getting Daddy's approval but better. I just wanted to say you've inspired me. Murder, here I come!
I found your channel through the Bo vs. Jeff video, which was amazing btw, and have binged all your videos since. Good job on hooking me in. Also, Side note, the captions are fucking on point
Being a left-leaning African-American, I not only really like Hamilton but I think it's something that America needs. To me I think much of the discourse surrounding the show shows the good and bad of America and forces people to address a past that they are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with. Last year we saw so many people tear down statues and try to cancel anything that tied into the founding fathers without realizing that if we don't address these people and simply bury them we reserved their quote on quote iconic status and allow people to just picture them however they please.
Hey there! I think there's a bit of nuance in the "tear down statues" bit that was missed in this comment. People weren't advocating for these people to be forgotten entirely. After all, as you're kind of saying, if you don't learn about history, you're doomed to forget it. The people objecting to these statues being up (many of the ones targeted being of Confederate generals and other important people for that cause, which were put up by the 'Daughters of Liberty' after the war in order to make future generations think of those people as more heroic instead of traitorous against the union) were wanting to take them down because statues sort of deify the people they are capturing. For an adjacent example, though of course more serious, Germany took down statues and memorials of N*zis after WWII. In America, the issue is that we are choosing to preserve statues of slave-owners and Confederate leaders, and that can allow future generations to think of them in a better light than their actions would prompt otherwise. If those statues are taken down and/or replaced with people who fought for the Union or for civil rights in America, those first statues would not be lost forever. Everyday citizens don't tend to learn about those people solely from statues, after all. There would just be less of a sense that we are putting them on a pedestal to be remembered positively.
@@are_ya_wynning_son while I can certainly understand, I do think in a way that's also a form of whitewashing Imo. It's important to know exactly what America was founded on as a grim reminder to the Next Generation. Every time something awkward or controversial happens in the Americas we try to bury it if it makes us feel uncomfortable only for it to just float up to the surface some years later
What specifically do you mean is a form of 'whitewashing'? Curious about how that word's being used in this context. And actually, what I was disagreeing with was that anything was being buried by taking these statues down at all. I'm not advocating for not teaching about these people in schools, and the vast majority of people wanting those statues taking down weren't either. It's about the spirit in which the Confederate monuments were erected, and how preserving that heroic spirit says to the next generations that we were and continue to be proud of these people and their actions, instead of learning why they were incorrect. I agree that it's important to know on what exactly America was founded - I think we're arguing the same side. I'm saying that these statues being taken down would help to stop honoring people who did terrible things, but the statues being taken down would certainly not stop future generations from learning about them and their actions. Hope that's clearer!
@@are_ya_wynning_son oh yeah I agree were basically on the same side here. But based on my own history as a black guy, I've noticed that whenever something controversial is bought up especially in Progressive circles people tend to try to shut it down because it's viewed as problematic. When Hamilton debuted on Disney+ last year there was a wave of people who tried to dunk on anybody who dare speak anything remotely positive of it because it didn't adhere to what was going on with current affairs supposedly. I was told more than once that these people should be lost to history because of their deeds which I always found very odd because by forgetting the past we can't build towards a better future which is basically where I sit on the issue. It feels like in the last few years the art of having a complicated conversation about stuff like race or history gets squabbles into a debate on whether you are on side A or B.
@@desdar100 Ah yeah, that can be a real problem on the left; that's true. (By the way, I'm a black leftist, so that's the funnel through which my ideas are coming.) It's true that a lot of people's kneejerk reactions can be to hardcore cancel or embrace a piece of media, and often those people are very loud. I tend to assume that most people are more sensible than that very vocal percentage, and think that it's necessary to analyze some sorts of more problematic text rather than ignoring them completely. (Of course, if the media is entirely hateful nuance-less propaganda or something of the sort, I wouldn't feel the same way about it.) Concerning history instead of media, I don't think that any of it should be shut out from review and/or criticism. I don't agree with the people who told you that these people should be lost to history. Specifically about Hamilton, my views are pretty much like CJ's - I'm a sucker for the soundtrack, and understand that though there's historical revisionism and some important topics glossed over, there's a place for it in discourse, and positive impact it's had on some people's lives. I also prefer to deal more in issues than dialogue about what political 'side' I'm on, though my views do align much more with one area of the political compass than another. It seems to me that honest and thorough analysis about this sort of media is more important than dogmatic tribalism any which way, and that's the manner in which I prefer to talk about it.
I am fascinated by your points and I love your videos for their content as well as their delivery but also. I'm gonna try and recreate some of your makeup looks because they're all cool as fuck
You have this ability to come across both incredibly earnestly while also seeming highly performative. The mix of high energy, high intellect, and humor is sublime. I am demi and you have the Chris Hemsworth of personalities.
Recently got really into your videos, you put a lot of work and energy into them and it shows. I will definitely come back to more than one of your videos to learn again. And I am pro, murder is a necessary but unfortunate last resort for many good people.
That artist you mentioned in the beginning reminds me of this character Cecil Kanagawa from The Penumbra Podcast's first Juno Steel two parter. He's basically the same except he makes movies and everything and everyone was hurt in the making of his movies lmao
hamilton has girlboss energy i can’t explain it any further
It's def giving me "first wave feminism" vibes ... but with race
Why do I understand this?
You put it into words wow
You are so right, wow
gaslight gatekeep girlboss
remember to comment if ur pro murder
I'm not pro murder but you killed this video! Great job, looking forward to more
Ofc daddy 😳🥺
comment
pro murder but only towards billionaires
* anxiously checks how many comments there are *
Okay. I love this. After watching Hamilton I got swept up on the genius of the music and the performances and have kind of left it in that world for a while because with theatre there’s always this suspended disbelief...That being said. Now that I’ve had time away from it I’m looking at it like I’m looking at a lot of television/film where they’re giving us the ILLUSION of awareness/equity/accountability/diversity but they’re...not really saying anything. It’s all about good intentions without doing THE work.
I think of Bridgerton as a recent example. It’s all Brunch. Thank you for your content. Can’t wait to see more of your vids!!
I think Hamilton is definitely one of those cases of getting your foot in the door IMO.
The actor who played Hercules Mulligan talked about how many people rode off the show as being a failure because they didn't see anyone connecting with the idea that Miranda had in mind but it in fact became a huge success despite the tribulations they faced for the first couple of years.
I know that by today so I may see it as being moderate, but it has led to more black actors getting a chance to tell more provoking stories on theater and using POC instead of relying on the same Caucasian actors in their mid-50s
Still Processing did a fantastic podcast episode recently about Hamilton, hitting some of these points and others. Really fantastic stuff
I swear I was thinking about Bridgentons too. I haven't seen neither, but that's the vive I receive from trailers and clips
As a theatre graduate, i agree and disagree. This is always why i preferred plays to musicals; the suspension of disbelief is used as a tool explore themes that aren't easily explained or understood. Like there's alot of big musicals from post 1950s that are just consumerist and virtue signalling rather than actually doing the work. Like, the writer by Ella hickson vs something like cats. It's just not comparable, ones about the entertainment factor, ones about the intellectual discussion behind the words.
YEAH EXACTLY (also omg hi i love your channel so much???)
it is still wild to me that in a show about raising up immigrant/PoC narratives they give Hercules Mulligan all the credit for being a cool spy when a lot of the work was actually done by his slave, Cato.
Wow I did not know that!
another really interesting component of Hamilton's morality is its material impact. after it came onto the cultural zeitgeist, the orphanage that gets shouted at the end? began receiving tons more traffic, and were able to adopt out/foster tons more children. that's undeniably a good thing, and wouldn't have come about without Hamilton's existence. just another neat morality perspective to think about!
yo that’s such a niche?? but interesting and important thing? thank you for mentioning it
That makes me happy to read! Thanks for sharing 😊
but then it also has a bunch of teenagers creating non binary gay thomas jefferson fan art lmao
@@liamross340 gotta take the good with the bad lol
@@liamross340 yeah but thats essentially fake, as opposed to the orphanage having real impact on real people's lives. hopefully for better
Also, I literally get to the same conclusion by the end of most of my videos. “Here’s all this stuff, here are my thoughts, I don’t friggen know...thanks for watching.”
Subscribed!
you watch CJ too??? word
Strong agree. Most enjoyable ending I’ve watched all year
Love watching your vids!!
Love your videos! It's awesome that you watch him!
yo you''re pro murder?
hamilton will always be a little complicated to me, lin manuel miranda’s work will always mean a lot to me despite some of the issues with how fast theatre becomes dated, i was a young teen with adhd when it came out and it immediately became a huge hyperfixation for me, and i could probably recite it off by heart, i’m now studying history and archaeology and definitely can see the glaring issues of personal interpretation/bias in hamilton, but damn if lin didn’t made me cry as a young first generation latino with In The Heights, and helpless/satisfied is genuine beauty of theatre
idk at the very least i’m glad this show introduced me way back to artists like daveed diggs, jonathan groff, renee elise golds berry and more, like finding clppng and she’s gotta have it (with anthony ramos) through hamilton was lowkey worth it.
anyways this was a really great video and your makeup looks awesome!
My long-standing take on Hamilton is that it's similar to when a theatre does an all-black cast of a show that has traditionally only cast white actors; or doing an all-women cast of a show that usually only has male roles. It's fun and interesting and can certainly expose more about the text by doing so (the "text" in this metaphor is the US history of the founding fathers, not the text of Hamilton the musical), but it doesn't erase the problems with the original text, or the problems with how the text is typically performed. Mainly what it does is allow folks of a demographic who systemically don't get as many roles to really shine. And that's alright, but it isn't revolutionary.
I do think the sheer popularity of Hamilton has caused it to grow beyond the scope of theatre nerds in a way that few other recent shows have, and I do imagine that non-theatre folks may not have the kind of context around such "divisive casting" versions of shows to really get all this easily, though.
I think Hamilton also intentionally billed itself as something more than a non-traditionally cast show, as well. It's got all the look-at-me self-congratulatory progressivism of changing Hamlet's pronouns to they/them and saying you've "fixed" Shakespeare. And I think you're right in that a lot non-theatre folk haven't been around for these casting discussions and don't have the context or background to help them see through that.
@@lil-lionryan I don't disagree on the self-congradulatory billing, but I don't know that it's much different than what most theatres often do with "interesting casting choices." I know at least in my experience marketing departments have tried to oversell this kind of stuff in my shows at the barest of opportunities, and it's an uphill battle to get them to stop.
Sorry to reply to a 4 month old comment, but here goes. The problem with Hamilton isn't inherent to the text, at least how I see it. If you see it for what it is - a fun ahistorical narrative about characters very loosely based off of real life - then it's not that problematic. The problem presents itself in how white wealthy liberals responded to Hamilton, and then how Lin Manuel Miranda used that response to further monetize the project. White liberals really did see Hamilton as revolutionary, as a sort of redemptive vision of American history. Instead of seeing Hamilton as an explicitly ahistorical narrative, they saw it as a presentation of what America should be, and (according to Liberals) fundamentally is, if you cut out all the Bad People (conservatives and rural folk). It allowed white people to look at American history guilt free, without the burden of all the truly horrific shit going on at the time. That's why they loved it, it appealed to White sensibilities that perhaps America is at its heart a good country, with origins not drenched in the blood of PoC, natives, and the working class, but actually a force for good. And that's a lie.
@@trombonegamer14 I think it misses the scope to limit it to liberals who have done and continue to do this. All kinds of white folks find comfort within the faux revolutionary tone of the musical. But what you are talking about absolutely is a thing that has happened and keeps happening.
I don't think it's terribly useful to talk about these things as not being inherent to the text; context - especially social context - are often more important for understanding a work. No text is written in a vacuum, and no text becomes popular in a vacuum. It's one thing to decry or be frustrated at the lack of theatrical context that the wider audience has - as I did in the OP - but that doesn't override the actual narrative between that wider audience and the text that you are touching on in your comment. It's sad that folks don't have the context of understanding the theatrical traditions this plays on....but also if they understood that context it's very possible that the musical would not have been as popular as it has become. It's popular because lots of white folks found it's faux revolutionary tone comforting in absolving them of guilt for perpetuating the systems of harm. And because of that dialogue existing between the wider audience and the text, it has become part of the text and cannot be ignored.
@@natahliazaring5291 sounds like you and I agree about a lot, thanks for replying!
this is very good.
does leaving a comment mean I am pro murder?
Yes
yes
Absolutely
no but actually yes
but does me commenting two different times negate that? does it somehow cancel the other out? or does it further prove my support? and does a reply even count as a comment??
Definitely yes. You are free to plead virtual murder as ur defense tho XD
"I'm biased towards art--I like good art. I like it so much, I can't stop liking it and it seems like on a gut level more than I don't like morally dubious things, I seem to like art." Bro you put my whole life into words
Also, having now finished the video (sorry just got excited to see someone with a similar take on Hamilton) I also find myself in that same difficult space of loving good art more than bad art that doesn't offend me with it's existence or subtext etc. As a cis het male (who grew up in Chicago on R Kelly and Bill Cosby...I'm old) Im extra skiddish about managing that paradox. And much like you... i really don't fucking know
Wow, I love your videos! So glad to see you here!
I'm definitely not able to speak on the representation in Hamilton too well, but I think the reception of movies like the barbie movie make it even stranger that people have turned to hate it so. Barbie is in fact, pretty regressive in its takes, removing any mention of intersectionality from the idea of feminism and such. I still love the movie, but it's extremely flawed and people need to ignore that to like the movie for some reason. While I don't think it's perfectly comparable to Hamilton by a long shot, I think it's notable that both lack nuance on the coverage of racism for the sake of a fun good time, and at the very least Hamilton was actually made by a Puerto Rican man who grew up in the Bronx. He isn't unaware of America's history of racist discrimination, it's just not in Hamilton. That doesn't make it okay, but I don't think that makes Hamilton irredeemable. It's strange to defend that I do artistically like Hamilton, without any mention that I defend it on a critical level, and get accused of ignoring racism. You can have a nuanced opinion on a thing you like.
No idea if this makes any sense, sorry for going on a rant ! I'm bad at staying on topic I like tangents
thankful that you did a closeup of the makeup bc it looks really pretty and i wanted to see it close up
waiit i somehow missed it! time stamp?
@@almonds8895 13:10 ish i think
i’ve always thought hamilton is an amazing piece of art but a tonal nightmare. i think it has a superficial ‘woke’ message it wants to give and no idea how to. they drop in so many throw away lines about how ‘hamilton and eliza and john laurens worked so hard to stop slavery!!!!’ and then in the act 2 opener, they just drop in a mention of sally hemmings, a woman enslaved to thomas jefferson, as if she’s his secretary or something???? just reads as them using slavery to create an image of how these characters were actually brilliant, compassionate people when that’s not the case.
Khadija Mbowe sent me and I love her for it.
She sent me here too! Instantly subscribed.
Same! Great video
yesss she’s one of my FAVES
which video of hers?
Same!!! Lol
I was like "a video essay in 13 minutes... yeah sure..." but now I'm just speechless.
Hello, being forced to reconsider my appreciation of Hamilton in this way is exactly what I need and exactly what I hate. I am biased towards Hamilton for what it is and what it did but you're hella right about every part of this video. Ouch. Here's my day of existential reconsidering. Also, screw JK Rowling.
Honestly Hamilton would be so much better if it didn’t mention race at all, it’s like the vampire diaries, being centered around racism without offering anything meaningful.
me in my bisexual world, once tried to sit on a stool with my leg crossed under me. i toppled to the floor. badly. moral of the story: if bisexual avoid stools
Oh nooooo
Noted
sexy, concise, intelligent, insightful #promurder
This is like, the best video I’ve seen in such a long time
Yea I agree!
This video is only 13 mins long and I’m only 9mins in but I feel like it’s so much longer, you condense so much information it’s nuts. Thank you
I feel like the song they cut from the musical really goes well with the "I'm looking forward to reading the stories you write" line. The third cabinet debate, where the mood is incredibly dark, they straight-up discuss the issues with slave owners having to let go of their workers and how Jefferson and Madison sympathise with the notion that slavery and racism is bad, but still find a justification for keeping things the way they are right now. I feel like the most powerful line is the last one, Washington saying something like "let's hope the future generation thinks of something better" as the background music fades out into the ticking of a clock. It's just chilling, but the fact that it was cut has a meaning of its own.
I think about this cut song when people bring up their issues with Hamilton, too. I remember when I first heard it, back when I was in my first Hamilton hype, I was like oh my god why did they cut this! It's fire AND it actually addresses some of the most egregious crimes of these historical characters, in way that's a little more substantial than the few nods towards slavery present in the finished product. Then I thought about it and realised that it basically wouldn't have contributed to any of the main big themes/tensions/conflicts of the show, which as stated in the video are things like legacy, ambition, the immigrant struggle etc. Which then got me thinking about whether it is okay at all to make a story about slave owners that isn't ABOUT slavery in any meaningful way, and if no, then what implications that might have for a number of other stories out there.
Imo (I’m Asian, not black or brown or indigenous so definitely not speaking for/over people who fit into those categories) I think it’s ok to enjoy Hamilton and other pieces of work like Hamilton as long as you realize and comprehend that this is a rosy look at what the Founding Fathers were like and there are MAJOR creative liberties taken. Again, just my opinion☺️
I agree completely. I'm a biracial woman (black and Croatian) and I sincerely love Hamilton- it's not part of my identity like it is with some people, but I do listen to it in the car and when I'm doing housework- but I'm also extremely concious of the fact that LMM cast black men as people who would have owned them, and whitewashed/brushed over a _lot_ of their misdeeds to make them seem more sympathetic. The very first time I heard the opening number, I had to pause and say aloud "Psh, I'd like to see how Hamilton would've accomplished all this if he had been born black or a woman". It's American exceptionalism propaganda, plain and simple... but so are lots of things. Marvel movies are propapganda too, but we should still be allowed to enjoy them while remaining cognizant of the fact that what we're enjoying isn't an accurate reflection of reality.
@@Silburific I totally agree. Regarding marvel being propaganda though, I totally agree but have you seen the newest series Falcon and the Winter a Soldier? For the first time ever (that I’m aware of anyway, not a fan), they’re actually addressing real issues within our country and painting the US in a far more realistic and bleak light. I was so happy to see it for the sake of future generations growing up with this version of Marvel.
@@Silburific "American exceptionalism propaganda"...that's really the perfect phrase for it. I'll admit, I can't speak on the accuracy of which Hamilton portrays American history, I don't know american history. However, as a Canadian, the American exceptionalism propaganda seemed very blatant to me. I kept thinking "okay, take a step back, your not THAT great" XD. It also struck me as weird that every character seemed to love or respect Hamilton from a narrative point. It was a if Hamilton (main character Hamilton) wrote the play as a self insert, if that makes sense. Also I feel like every time they say "how does a bastard son blah blah blah become blah blah blah" the answer you were supposed to read between the lines was "because america is great and gives equal opportunity to everyone!!!". Overall, I think I like Hamilton but these things really stuck out to me as well. Its also a great reminder to not glorify Canada either.
@@victoriap1649 marvel actually does this quite a bit (in the comics though), I really hope they bring more of the realistic themes into the movies. Like with X-men, the entire thing is a metaphor for several marginalized groups trying to deal with their oppression. They have yet to be added to the MCU, but it'd really be a wonderful addition if they want to keep the ball rolling (Considering Storm/Ororo is a black woman and a main character, she alone could drive some kind of plot)
But they've already kinda fucked up America Chavez by casting her light skin when comic America is dark skin, so my hopes aren't super high
"Your nice mom that doesn't understand they/them pro nouns" felt that shit
I absolutely agree with everything you said! I just also wanted to point out another positive result from Hamilton: it opened doors for a lot of POC in a very upperclass white industry. I know a lot of kids of color who were inspired to pursue musical theatre because of Hamilton. If a better show had done the same thing, that would be better, but Hamilton’s what ended up doing it, and I think that’s important to recognize.
Also, musical theatre, especially Broadway, is a really classist medium in a lot of ways. How you *seen* the price of Broadway tickets? Too many musicals portray the lives of poor people and sell it for rich people’s enjoyment. Most kids or poor people or people who don’t live in America or disabled people (a lot of theaters still aren’t fully accessible!) have to rely on shitty bootlegs to see their favorite shows. In that respect, I really admire how LMM worked so hard to make his musical so accessible. Even though he took a bit to do it, the fact he released a proshot at all is HUGE, and the fact it was successful will go a long way towards other musicals also getting released that way.
TLDR: as a theatre nerd, I don’t love Hamilton but it achieved a lot for making the art form more accessible, and I have to admire that.
I love hamilton, i have adhd and immediately hyperfixated on it, but like you said: it's great as long it's seen as a fictional piece and not historically accurate. I love all roles but i know that many of them were probably shitty people.
Im also not american, i have no history with america, so maybe it's easier for me to disconnect hamilton from actual american history.
Yeah my first listen to I didn't realise it was about a real historical event until they mentioned George Washington lol.
The main characters are literally human traffickers
@@charliejohanssen7421 yes. Like i said, i like the characters, not the actual historical people.
it honestly disturbs me that i can find such an amazing creator so (seemingly) randomly. started watching your vids a couple hours ago and fully love your channel now, can’t wait to continue watching tomorrow and after. worries me, how many incredible creators am i missing because #algorithm
right?? same worries!! such insightful videos
your bisexual energy is ✨radiating✨ in this video
your thoughts are always so sporadic and unapologetic and even though my brain can’t keep up with yours, i’ve always loved that about you. i’ve always been one to appreciate art for being good art even with a tragic backstory but the way you word it sounds so much better lmao
All I know is that it actually made me care about history. I loved the musical, so I learned all the lyrics. Then I watched videos about it which taught me about what in Hamilton was incorrect and what actually happened during the time of Alexander Hamilton. In my history class I dont learn anything.
"I'm just here to waste your time" I don't have any problem with that
Sounds to me like when it comes to Hamilton, you don't know how to say no to this
Reason's why I love your video. 1. The way you analyzed this topic so effortlessly like bro I want to be like you because you are brilliant. 2. Your eye shadow game is on point pretty please drop your palette. 3. You sit like L from Deathnote and that brings me comfort.
"Damn girl, get his ass!" I literally subscribed immediately 😭
The delivery of "In reality, it's fucking borat" made me SCREAM
My issue with Hamilton Discourse™️ is that it often erases the presence of Latin American artistry and the experience of immigration. I think it’s clear that Lin saw himself in the story of a hungry and ambitious immigrant, and in pursuing that concept, ended up with MAJOR blind spots (you know... like women. And Black people.)
A lot of the discourse around the show boils down to “a white take on American history” when it really should be viewed through the lens of “an immigrant take on American history”. There is room to explore the way immigrant families (like mine) hold a complex relationship with America, both romantic and contemptuous.
I think I’m partial to the show because I was so desperate for the success of Latin representation on Broadway when it came out. We’re not even from the same country! I’m Argentinian and Lin is Puerto Rican to my knowledge. But Broadway has an under representation problem and we were taking what we could get.
This is quite literally me. Down to not being from the same country I'm Mexican! And yet Lin being successful makes me feel happy. And represented because he is known for writing about the immigrant experience. Which is something me and my family have experienced here in the U.S to our own extent
He isnt an immigrant. He's a rich boy that grew up in NY, barely ever set foot on PR and is incredibly out of touch with his own people. The political situation is complex for us, but basically all PRicans are born with US citizenship because the US erased the concept of a PR nation-state, and thus we have no PR citizenship. Lin Manuel suffered no hardships, no insurmountable challenges, to get where he is. No wonder he identified with Hamilton, a rich son of a platation owner that "suffered" through immigration. Materialistically, there would have been no difference in his life if he had grown up here on the island or in the US.
@@dontnerfmebro8052 plus it is just propaganda of american dream and from rags to riches trope, giving the false hope and advocating liberal politics
Recommended read for those looking for more like this video: Tricia Rose's _The Hip Hop Wars_ . She touches on the controversy surrounding the genre (and Black music in general) through its history, and goes pretty in-depth about enjoying catchy music with problematic themes. In her words, "Beware the Manipulation of the Funk."
Can't recommend it highly enough. Rose is one of those rare people whose writing is absorbing because of its academic rigor, not in spite of it. It's like if a video essay were a regular essay.
I feel like a lot of historical shows have this flaw.
The weight of suffering that has happened in the past is too heavy to carried all the time though.
It's a hard one to me, even more so when we choose to ignore the pain we end up reopening the wounds without knowing it.
The and Peggy killed me 😭
"Racism was over, you remember that??" Hahahaha fuck, you right
Also im really enjoying watching this right after your objectivity in art criticism video, you were dropping lore hints into the cjthex universe and we didn't even realize
“HAMILTON IS BRUNCH” thank you for that
A video about subjectivity vs objectivity in art would be objectively excellent
Ah, so you gave him the idea!
Hamilton reminds me of a power fantasy. You may feel weak or stupid or have no friends or whatever problem you have and instead of doing long hard work that needs to be done every day you can just read/watch a power fantasy and feel as if you've solved your problems. Just like how I listen to sad music and it makes me feel like I've worked out my emotional problems (spoiler: I haven't). It's quick and you don't have to do any real work (:
So for Hamilton, it's like most of us know the U.S. is riddled with problems but instead of facing that we watch a musical that makes us proud to be American. We feel an artificial satisfaction and don't do anything of substance.
i have trouble enjoying hamilton now due to how blindly i adored it in middle school. letting it have such massive influence over me at a young age led me to make bad choices like idolize the actual historical figures. it took me years to break down that perception and realize they were all bad people by my standards. i do attack hamilton from time to time for its negatives (stolen choreography, lip service, etc), but much of what makes me dislike hamilton is the surrounding culture and fandom, not the show itself.
Which is such an interesting point, because I had a different experience with the show when I was in my adoring phase. I was a senior in hs when Hamilton dropped but I didn’t fully listen to the show until the next year when I was in college.
I think the ages of the viewers/listeners (obvi, ofc) really influenced what the general public got out of it.
And not saying that you being younger and not fully educated meant that you weren’t/could be aware of historical perspectives, but when I was in middle school I had only taken one American history class.
By the time I was graduated and listened to Hamilton, I had taken THREE (because they repeat the course, adding and expanding on information as we age through public school), AND was also taking an American Revolution course in university. I got to vote for the first time, and the whole thing was magical to me.
I knew the actual historical figures ain’t shit, in fact, they’re stupid. All of them. Like you said! They ALL did something-multiple things-that were horrific.
And they don’t fit to my standards, either.
Now, I’m a fully grown adult. Those years in between-I saw the “fandom and surrounding culture” change, as well as my own personal opinions, and I completely agree with you. It’s not always necessarily “the show itself”
I’m not really sure what point I was trying to make with this long rant, but I wanted you to know I appreciated what you had to say!
I think casting an entire POC cast to tell a white story was a good thing to do. It has certain meanings and metaphors that are healing. But it is not the only thing that needs to happen, we do also need diverse stories and histories cast with racial accuracy. So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Hamilton, it just didn’t solve every problem. And that’s ok!
Khadija sent me... bro we are saying very similar things. I have 2 videos on hamilton (my very first video...it's very rough technically so brace yourself) and we make similar points. You had me at the Bioshock reference. subbed!
Hamilton accomplished what it set out to do: be the story of America Then told by America Now. I never got the vibe that it was some kind of icon of progressivism, beyond having a really diverse cast. I agree that if you’re looking to Hamilton as a big breakthrough in social commentary, it’s gonna disappoint you. But (afaik) it was never trying to be that in the first place.
At this point I've binged all you videos and I'm fascinated with your communicative abilities. You talk like my mind flows and its fucking incredible, and I lowkey feel seen by your content?
keep up the god tier work you absolute king
jeanise borat bit reminded me of the provoked improv in one way or another by sara gomez u might be into it! basically the main characters act “in character” at their jobs (school teacher/factory worker) and the filming process takes place under the guise of documentary, so the interactions in the workplace are “true” for the supporting characters (like several scenes where the protagonist has meetings with kids’ mothers and then debriefs with her coworkers) but (kinda) fiction for the filmmakers.
5:54 !! Yes! I love this approach! Add something to the cause but ultimately progress beyond it! I see people tearing down so many things I like -- Rick Riordan's books, for example, had pretty clumsy indigenous representation -- but at the time it was _an_ effort. I recognize those problems, I still really enjoyed those books when I was a kid, and I look forward to the book that outdoes it.
I think at the time it felt like a progressive work of art, but now we've moved past it and it doesn't seem like it anymore, which is a good thing.
I mean, I remember when I watched the play in 2015, 15 year old me was impressed by the cast diversity and the sort of "feminist" songs I could quote with my friends all the time.
It was a different time. And now, with Black lives matter, it's obvious that we've moved past it. I'm impressed that Hamilton managed to go from a progressive looking play in my eyes, to an outdated work of art in just 6 years.
i feel like some people watched hamilton and truly took a lot of history from that show and were disappointed that it wasnt true. (and im not talking about the poc cast, i mean that the characters are often v detatched from their historical counterparts) the show has never not been a fantasy, and sometimes i wonder if the cringe felt towards hamilton now is actually self-cringe felt by people who loved indulging in that fantasy during obama era fun times, but theyve since learned about, accepted, and are now actively fighting against an america that has always been and still is deeply racist.
ive studied a lot about the american revolution, it was a big hyperfixation from 2015-2018 and i really didnt get sucked into hamilton before i already knew a lot of details about the founding and the morality and personalities of the founders (i read a giant biography about jefferson in highschool and study american history in college for gods sake thats how deep i was in this). and what im getting at is that its always so weird to hear takes NOW that "hamilton is trying to put rose colored glasses on americas history!" because if you know enough about the actual history, you already know the whole thing is filled with and relies on inaccuracy, from the perspectives/motivations of the characters to their actual personalities (historical jefferson was quiet, uncharismatic, and awkward, for instance), and you can just suspend your disbelief and enjoy the story and the music. i already went in realizing that the whole thing was an inaccurate fantasy and a way for lin to project a self-starter latinx immigrant story and claim that narrative through hamiltons life story, which like good for him (in other words, to say its a story about black folks is inaccuate from the get go, the story is about lin seeing a figure that mirrors him in american mythology/history and quite literally putting himself in those shoes) either way, producing a broadway musical intended to employ people of color is cool too! the story isnt truth, its OBVIOUS, esp now when being able to buy into the fantasy that hamilton provides is so foreign. its always been a fantasy, and honestly thats fine if you watch it and accept the truth in the back of your mind.
10:49 an interesting thing about making an American history based musical where the main characters are deeply unlikable, but still making an interesting show, is... it kinda exists. Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson. That show had its fair share of problems and things it definitely didn’t handle well, but it is very interesting to see a show that came out in 2009 that could easily be mistaken as a trump-era parody of a show like Hamilton (albeit with music that definitely sounds right out of the emo/pop punk phase of 2006-10)
my new fav youtuber. ive been binging your videos, sharing with friends, then rewatching. dont stop.
this guy has absolutely nailed the art of being able to criticize a piece of work but still being able to enjoy it ..... god i strive to be that therapized ily CJ ❤️
As an southern european to me personally Hamilton always seemed to be too much of an american product; and of course it's from the USA, but I feel that some movies, shows, novels, etc... appeal a lot to their culture (not saying it's bad, this would include Marvel for example) so many time it doesn't translate to well to people who havent adopted these standarts.
Hope it makes sense.
I love the accidental pun of standarts
Exactly
I don’t have an answer for myself about what to do with morally questionable art. There are some things I’m 100% with just dropping from my life and not supporting. But other things I’m still figuring out where I draw the line.
I was really not expecting to see a video that features bioshock and Hamilton in a video today but I’m very happy that I did
This was really, really good - I love how concisely you cut through the issue and your examples are incredible
I absolutely adore this video and the concept that you are out here existing, love that for this world
"The weight of slavery would break Hamilton" is on point.
[that one Shrek meme voice] he didn't even know Tupac
MAN im binging all your video essays and it's just excellent hell Yeah
You're really talented and I hope you keep on making videos, because I'm really excited to see what you make in the future and watch your channel grow.
I think, I’ve definitely felt this before. I’ve adored art that was... morally reprehensible, and I often think about what that means about me. Not all of the art I enjoy is good, maybe it just scratches a particularly niche. I can still appreciate good art, but you know, I don’t always. Either way, what does it say about me that I enjoy these things? Should I not question it, because it’s only art? Or does it need to be questioned. Does my enjoyment of these things need to be examined? Probably, on some level, like with all art. I don’t really know where I was going with this. Anyways this video is great.
"hamilton IS brunch" is the best thing iv ever heard
I’m here from Khadijah’s shout out staying for content.
This is an incredible video. Love to hear your commentary, it brings up that age old question of “can you separate the art from the artist?” Thank you for your insight!!
I watched Hamilton last July when it was on Disney+ and my initial feelings were that it was shallow and a little unsettling. I struggled to find anyone online sharing an critiques on Hamilton.
I am huge Hamilton fan and this was the first opposing video essay I could agree to. This wasn’t a mindless attack or blind support. This was just amazing!!
This was amazing! I want to be like you when I grow up, such beautifully articulated commentary.
This is the first video of you that I've seen, and damn, YOU ARE GOOD.
Like, I've never subscribed so fast to anyone.
1:39 Never has something so savage yet so true been uttered by humankind.
There's a thing my friend Joe said to me a while ago "fascism is obsessed with ascetics." and I think it's relevant here. Hamilton, and liberalism as an ideology, is built on the ascetics of progressivism without the meaning of progressivism.
I think the interesting thing is that in many ways it did break barriers in an industry that is predominantly Caucasian. It's just that people are re-evaluating it with knowledge of the present
Great Job. I learned a lot from your video essay. I am looking forward to see more.
really happy the youtube gods allowed this video to appear in my feed, been loving watching through your interesting video essays, make up game is on point, and you got a really enjoyable energy. I am 100% certain you're channel is going to blow tf up someday soon. BEN FROM CANADA GOT IT COMIN
WOW this is so excellent! I've opted out of ever watching Hamilton, but I was happy to watch this video
Hamilton is brunch!!
The art is good
Dude I just found your channel and I really love the angle you approach these subjects. Plus you actually tought me some new words 😅
great video i’m obsessed w your channel rn
This is the offspring of Oscar Isaac and Cosmonaut Variety Hour, pass it on. I've been watching your videos all afternoon and subscribed from the first one. I'm in love with the passion and love you have for art and analysing it, explaining why and how each thing is the way it is and how it resonates with you on a personal level. Your energy is refreshing and we're all here to vibe with your vibes. Your inability to sit straight on a chair is validating all of us fellow bisexuals. I've got to say, I am one video away from starting wearing gay colourful eye make up to school every day because I only have two months left in high school and to be fair, there's no real reason not to do that [and perhaps keep doing so after I've graduated. Life is meaningless - I can do whatever I want with it]. Thanks for inspiring me to become an empress and realise that my purpose is to follow your steps and finally start my quest for global domitation. Also, to answer your question, I am pro murder. Especially if it's in the name of defending your chocolate. [[To anyone that hasn't already, folks do yourselves a favor and check his Spotify out, this guy has way too few liseners for the gems he makes]]. Thank you for sharing your love of art with the world. We're all here for that and your amazing earrings✨✨
for me, hamilton was a foot in the door to leftism, a gateway to the aggressively unapologetically progressive politics i hold today. i feel like i outgrew it, but it was an important forward step for me as a teenager. and i met a lot of people through the fandom, including my first sort-of queer sort-of relationship.
it also served as a bridge between me and my viciously conservative mom, at a time when we had very little to connect over. we listened to the soundtrack on long car rides, we visited historical sites and talked about the musical's references to those sites, etc, and she liked it so much that she even read the biography it was based on. she chose to connect with her daughter by emotionally and academically investing into this musical that i was obsessed with, and that engagement led _her_ to a lot of actual black and brown stories told by black and brown authors. her reaction to the 2020 BLM resurgence was so different than it would have been without hamilton's impact on her. i attended protests with her knowledge and blessing. she read more books about history and racism by more black authors.
being mixed-race, i agree with the points you make in this video. i tend to wrinkle my nose at the story's overall cultural impact, and i tend to skirt away from white hamilton fans when they start saying the most white liberal shit i've ever heard. but i also have this story about it. shit's complicated as usual smh very annoying
it is making me very happy during a stressful assignment week to procrastinate by binge watching your fantastic video essays
Found your channel recently. This is my favorite video I've seen so far because it encapsulates the weird position that occurs with problematic art. Thank you for your time and thoughts.
I watched Hamilton for the first time when it was dropped on Disney + and you just articulated everything I felt when watching it in a way I could never
I came to you via the algorithm but knowing Khadija is a fan is just...wow. That's like getting Daddy's approval but better.
I just wanted to say you've inspired me.
Murder, here I come!
I found your channel through the Bo vs. Jeff video, which was amazing btw, and have binged all your videos since. Good job on hooking me in.
Also, Side note, the captions are fucking on point
The my body’s telling me yes joke really got me with like reference to what you’re talking about and where that comes from yeah that’s good
im obsessed with you thank you Khadija for the recommendation
Being a left-leaning African-American, I not only really like Hamilton but I think it's something that America needs.
To me I think much of the discourse surrounding the show shows the good and bad of America and forces people to address a past that they are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with.
Last year we saw so many people tear down statues and try to cancel anything that tied into the founding fathers without realizing that if we don't address these people and simply bury them we reserved their quote on quote iconic status and allow people to just picture them however they please.
Hey there! I think there's a bit of nuance in the "tear down statues" bit that was missed in this comment. People weren't advocating for these people to be forgotten entirely. After all, as you're kind of saying, if you don't learn about history, you're doomed to forget it.
The people objecting to these statues being up (many of the ones targeted being of Confederate generals and other important people for that cause, which were put up by the 'Daughters of Liberty' after the war in order to make future generations think of those people as more heroic instead of traitorous against the union) were wanting to take them down because statues sort of deify the people they are capturing.
For an adjacent example, though of course more serious, Germany took down statues and memorials of N*zis after WWII. In America, the issue is that we are choosing to preserve statues of slave-owners and Confederate leaders, and that can allow future generations to think of them in a better light than their actions would prompt otherwise. If those statues are taken down and/or replaced with people who fought for the Union or for civil rights in America, those first statues would not be lost forever. Everyday citizens don't tend to learn about those people solely from statues, after all. There would just be less of a sense that we are putting them on a pedestal to be remembered positively.
@@are_ya_wynning_son while I can certainly understand, I do think in a way that's also a form of whitewashing Imo.
It's important to know exactly what America was founded on as a grim reminder to the Next Generation.
Every time something awkward or controversial happens in the Americas we try to bury it if it makes us feel uncomfortable only for it to just float up to the surface some years later
What specifically do you mean is a form of 'whitewashing'? Curious about how that word's being used in this context. And actually, what I was disagreeing with was that anything was being buried by taking these statues down at all. I'm not advocating for not teaching about these people in schools, and the vast majority of people wanting those statues taking down weren't either. It's about the spirit in which the Confederate monuments were erected, and how preserving that heroic spirit says to the next generations that we were and continue to be proud of these people and their actions, instead of learning why they were incorrect.
I agree that it's important to know on what exactly America was founded - I think we're arguing the same side. I'm saying that these statues being taken down would help to stop honoring people who did terrible things, but the statues being taken down would certainly not stop future generations from learning about them and their actions. Hope that's clearer!
@@are_ya_wynning_son oh yeah I agree were basically on the same side here.
But based on my own history as a black guy, I've noticed that whenever something controversial is bought up especially in Progressive circles people tend to try to shut it down because it's viewed as problematic.
When Hamilton debuted on Disney+ last year there was a wave of people who tried to dunk on anybody who dare speak anything remotely positive of it because it didn't adhere to what was going on with current affairs supposedly.
I was told more than once that these people should be lost to history because of their deeds which I always found very odd because by forgetting the past we can't build towards a better future which is basically where I sit on the issue.
It feels like in the last few years the art of having a complicated conversation about stuff like race or history gets squabbles into a debate on whether you are on side A or B.
@@desdar100 Ah yeah, that can be a real problem on the left; that's true. (By the way, I'm a black leftist, so that's the funnel through which my ideas are coming.) It's true that a lot of people's kneejerk reactions can be to hardcore cancel or embrace a piece of media, and often those people are very loud. I tend to assume that most people are more sensible than that very vocal percentage, and think that it's necessary to analyze some sorts of more problematic text rather than ignoring them completely. (Of course, if the media is entirely hateful nuance-less propaganda or something of the sort, I wouldn't feel the same way about it.)
Concerning history instead of media, I don't think that any of it should be shut out from review and/or criticism. I don't agree with the people who told you that these people should be lost to history. Specifically about Hamilton, my views are pretty much like CJ's - I'm a sucker for the soundtrack, and understand that though there's historical revisionism and some important topics glossed over, there's a place for it in discourse, and positive impact it's had on some people's lives.
I also prefer to deal more in issues than dialogue about what political 'side' I'm on, though my views do align much more with one area of the political compass than another. It seems to me that honest and thorough analysis about this sort of media is more important than dogmatic tribalism any which way, and that's the manner in which I prefer to talk about it.
I am fascinated by your points and I love your videos for their content as well as their delivery but also. I'm gonna try and recreate some of your makeup looks because they're all cool as fuck
You’re all I need . Love ur videos truly
You have this ability to come across both incredibly earnestly while also seeming highly performative. The mix of high energy, high intellect, and humor is sublime. I am demi and you have the Chris Hemsworth of personalities.
Can you pleasseeeeee do a video on West Side Story?
Also, I loved this video so much and it was so well put together. Love you! 💞
Recently got really into your videos, you put a lot of work and energy into them and it shows. I will definitely come back to more than one of your videos to learn again. And I am pro, murder is a necessary but unfortunate last resort for many good people.
my first time watching this channel, and let me just say - the pace and speed are perfect omg. I don't have the attention for anything slower
this sounded like a 13:16 long poem and i'm here for it
You aren’t yelling like a paradoxical thought gremlin in this video and that scared me
I love your commentary so much. thank you for speaking as if I'm watching it on 1.5 playback speed
That artist you mentioned in the beginning reminds me of this character Cecil Kanagawa from The Penumbra Podcast's first Juno Steel two parter. He's basically the same except he makes movies and everything and everyone was hurt in the making of his movies lmao
Damn i did not expect to see any analogies involving a minor character in like the first Juno steel episode here
@@nikh7222 You're welcome? 😅 I'm a little obsessed with Juno Steel right now so everything reminds me of it somehow hahaha
@@Kagomai15 haha mood.. i just relistened to the the murderous mask again too
HAMILTON IS BRUNCH!!!!! im dead. im on the floor. you absolutely nailed it.