When Marnie Was Gay
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- čas přidán 22. 01. 2021
- Using a Ghibli movie to discuss depression, queer readings of straight media, and narrative.
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(Thanks to Carolina Lopes for reading the Brazilian Portuguese in a Portugal Portuguese dialect and informing me the two were different. Sorry to my ravenously passionate Brazilian Portuguese speaking fanbase.) - Zábava
Marnie is anna’s grandma
Re turbio 🕵
Gay Grandma
truuuuuu
Ok but fry was his own grandpa
Bi granny.
“Her time travelling grandma uses queer baiting to cure her depression”
this comment!
Little secret your grandma knows but your therapist doesn't.
@Bogo Bogo I think it pretty much started at 100 😆
PLS😭
😂😂😂😂😂CAN'T FUCKING READ WITHOUT LAUGHING!!!
"Marnie is Anna's time traveling grandma who uses queer baiting to cure her gay orphan depression" killed me
LOL
Same
Perfect of perfection.
"Fatphobic gay orphan attack of 2014" that sent me🤣
the fact this video about the gay girl accidentally falling for her grandma has helped more than months of therapy is unreal
Anna has to live with the fact That her gay awakening was her grandma for the rest of her life😭
OMG😭😭😭
NAURRR😭
🤣
Hahhahahhahahha y e s-
Please tell me this is a joke
the “two same-sex characters clearly forming a queer relationship turning out to be related” trope is one of my biggest pet peeves. could you imagine if 2 related straight characters bonded the same way that anna and marnie do, or tinkerbell and periwinkle, etc.. not only does that NEVER happen because straightness is a part of almost every kids movie ever, but the weird implications with it would be way more noticeable to a broader audience. because a girl and guy sharing intimate moments together is seen as “obviously in love” while wlw/ mlm characters are seen as “just close friends”. i just hate the hypocrisy of it all, and how some people can have the gall to deny it
Damn, Korrasami, Catdora and Lumity really changed the game.
honestly i think that in the specific case of ghibli, it's just fair. miyazaki frequently puts a boy and a girl in the same room, with a lot of tension, and then proceeds to never make them actually romantic. AND in from up poppy hill, they suspect they're siblings, and at one point, they even say it doesn't matter.
to be completely fair tho, in from up poppy hill, they are not actual siblings in the end
Not so intensly with the bonding (because its a straight relationship) but Star Wars did something similar.
Gildemma
(From the promised neverland)
Anna's gf: lol yeah who was your gay awakening ?
Anna: 👀💧
they really burned every bridge in the ending trying to make it not gay
-she’s dead
-she likes a guy
-she’s married
-they’re related
even tho they’ve been setting it up as if they are in love, it’s so aggravating
edit because people are being annoying: They put anna in the place of marnie’s HUSBAND in her memories. From what i know most people are in love with their own husband so when you put anna in that position it very much makes it seem like marnie is in love with her
I thought they would make Marnie dead, but that she died at a young age or something and was going through “life” as a ghost. I actually thought they might have made it gay ;-;
😭
@@isilikespeopleandthings no that was definitely romantic love, in all of marnie’s memories anna took the place of marnie’s husband, ya know the person marnie would be romantically in love with
it’s literally anna reliving her grandpa’s memories bruh and you can literally hear marnie calling anna by the name “kazuhiko” which is the grandpa’s name also studio ghibli are just following the source material lol they didn’t do none-
At least one of them got a gay awakening
I legit thought it was a lesbian movie, but then we realize Marnie's her dead grandma.
it can be a gay movie if we just cut like the last 20 mins or sum
@@catastrophique yeah.
I stayed to watch the whole movie with a thought she was gay 😌
I thought the blue kid was a boy
I am a lesbian with BPD who recently blew up my life. I literally came here because there was a screenshot of this video in someone’s instagram post and the title sounded funny, I did NOT expect to be personally attacked and also given therapy.
What u mean with "blew up my life"?
@@lkx5257 you're the kind of person who as a child pointed at fat people in grocery stores and yelled "why is that woman so big?"
@@gabriellegoodwin4422 damn
In Retrospect kinda true lol
"People being kind too one another is an underratted narrative technique that can reveal a great deal about the giver and reciever of love" sry I just had to put that down for the record!! please continue
I think the video might have deserved an examination of japanese four act structure (Kishōtenketsu), because lots of ghibli stories follow that pattern and it's used for stories that aren't primarily driven by conflict per se - but more by evolving situations revealing character. It also seems like a useful framework for slice of life/cosy storytelling.
Ahah omg im one of the portuguese people that was upset she wasnt gay
Thank you for your service.
Eyy same!
fiquei tiste =,(
Exacto. I was shouting about When Marnie was Here having girls in love @ my friend. Fiquei mesmo desapontada .
@@artybluegirl 😭😭😭
my boyfriend has a deep grudge against this movie, he watched it as a kid when he was a baby gay and was so into the relationship between the two girls that nowadays whenever anyone brings up this movie he gets really salty about it.
As we all should
As he should
Damn this made me feel old
@@infinityentity as you should
I am also extremely salty. Lmao I had claimed the movie and everything for my representation and then NO 😤
As a gay girl, this movie genuinely upset me in a way I didn’t expect.
I was so happy watching it, I felt a sense of safety or “fullness” like the world had gone quiet and I felt understood.
No more playing up my straightness or being the person everyone else wants me to be. I felt a sense of peace thats rare for me to ever come across with media and the revelation that Marnie was Anna’s grandma had broken my sense of security that I found in the film.
It’s hard to explain. Because of my age, I am not the most skilled with explaining my feelings or understanding them completely but the reveal of the love being familial felt like a weird betrayal.
Like a sharp and sudden reminder that I still wasn’t “understood” the way I wanted to feel. It felt like all the times I felt comfortable enough to almost stop hiding my gayness, my barrier ever so slightly faltering only to be immediately met with punishment for my sincerity or honesty.
Sorry for how poorly explained it is but I hope it makes a bit of sense to you dear reader.
No, it makes sense to me! It was worded beautifully. I saw the movie today for the first time, but I felt the same way
this is how i felt! i'm a gay man. it's almost like the scene in which anna almost shares her art, but then it's interrupted. but it feels almost more cynical because i know the reason it isn't explicitly gay in the movie is because we are not allowed to be explicitly gay in movies like this. and the premise of the movie trying to help people like me except not people like ME because i'm gay.
Seeing it as romance and ignoring the familial aspect, it was and still is one of my ideal romances. Like, i want that for myself!
@@akiraagreste359Or maybe the story was told exactly as they wanted to, and you and so many others are projecting your own identity onto characters- as literally everyone does- but no one but you is you, so nothing is going to be an exact match to how you identify? but don’t you think it’s just as wrong to impose your preferences upon even fictional characters about their identities (especially _children,_ who should not be being sexualized at all), just as it is wrong when heteronormative people impose their idea of sexuality upon those who don’t identify with it? gay people are not persecuted in america anymore- it is more common for gay people to be represented than heteronormative people nowadays, and there isn’t some agenda of suppression anymore- *quite* the opposite! trust that people are telling the stories they want to tell, and that it isn’t your right to dictate the sexualities of other people, even if you related to them more than you discovered there was actually basis for- which happens with real life relationships all the time; why do you think people break up? they assume/project aspects of their own desire upon people and don’t accept who they actually are.
Also, familial love is not ‘less than’ and if sex is the only thing you’re actually looking for, _that isn’t love._ If someone truly loves you, whether that leads to physically intimacy or not, that love is reaching your heart and is something to desire either way. I don’t understand everyone here acting like the love of family is somehow less of a connection than the love of a romantic significant other; in fact this movie itself is the proof of that! Since obviously you fell for it! It’s just shown you your presuppositions were incorrect: that a familial relationship can transcend the measly forms and definitions you had imposed upon it.
@@highfae no body was making it sexual, I think youre just seeing things
This is how I feel about Tinkerbell and The Secret of the Wings. They made it so gay, depicted so many dates between Tinkerbell and Periwinkle, and THEY LITERALLY HEAL EACHOTHER WITH THEIR LOVE. They have to hide their relationship from authority figures, and have their friends help them to ‘spend time’ together (like going ice skating and making tons of hearts while holding hands and having them go on romantic boat rides.) AND THEN they show a relationship like theirs had happened before, AND IT WAS A ROMANCE! And then they’re like “haha guess what? They’re sisters!” Like, 6yo me was soooo confused and very uncomfortable with the fact that this relationship was between SISTERS. Idk how much people in this comment section will get this, but like, this video perfectly explains my emotions for Tinkerbell.
THAT MOVIE IS THE REASON WHY IM QUEER ISTG
Fr tf
Honestly it's been so long since I've watched that movie lil me just accepted it. I'll have to rewatch it now with a new perspective.
Sounds like the usual corporate "intervention" from higher ups
I knew there was a reason for that to be my fav Tinkerbell movie as a kid
"anna creates the reality she thinks she deserves" i feel like I'm getting secondhand therapy
same
Frrr bish
@jauxro, I love ur profile picture. LUMITY for life!
Everyone acting like the teen girl protagonist couldn’t accidentally very clearly having a crush on a girl she doesn’t realise is actually her grandma like From Up on Poppy Hill didn’t happen.
That film needs a video too lmao
oh my god yeah !!! didnt the two kids in that movie also say at one point that they didnt even care that they were related lol
@@me_ish she says she didn't care but have a literal breakdown relieving moment when her mother tells that he wasn't hers. talk about 'idc'
RIGHT??
YES
watched this movie with my slightly homophobic mom and she legit said “is this one of those lesbian things”
"Her only solace... Her SAD, GAY little drawings." 😂 Me age 11 to 21.
2 things i can't forgive:
1) Marnie and Anna not being gay
2) The fact that i had to listen to these movie scenes in English
Why are the actors in ALL THE DUBS of Ghibli films sooo god awful???? Everything always sounds so flat and cringe.
Indeed
Subs over dubs yo!
@@goldcherries i actually like the ones for spirited away 😭
@@goldcherries I’m gonna have to disagree on that
me, a depressed, repressed butch lesbian at age twelve watching this with my family and being so confused by all the emotions it made me feel like "hope this doesn't awaken anything in me." I was pretty much the exact same person as anna at the time and this movie showed me that there was still a future in which I could heal. It's one of those pieces of art that without which I don't even know if I'd be alive today. Anna's time traveling grandma used queerbaiting to cure *my* depression.
Aw, good for you! Even if the whole grandma thing was confusing, I'm glad you still got value out of the movie in a time you needed it.
i know this was 2 years ago, but i wish you well!! i relate to this quite a bit, the grandma queer baiting may have cured my depression for a bit as well.
I was so much like Anna at at 12/13 that this movie was uncomfortable to watch and face that reality. The drawing, the depression, the HAIR 😭
And yeah, I'm now very very butch and with a femme who makes me feel seen lmao. I got the arc this movie swerved around by making Marnie her Grandma
“When Marnie was queer” WAS RIGHT THERE
Apparently, the relationship between Anna and Marnie in the original novel is meant to be a reflection of the author's feelings towards her mother. The author, Joan G. Robinson, commented: "I am Anna of course, and Marnie is my mother. My mother was always un-get-atable. Without meaning to, she always let me down. I found this extremely difficult to forgive, for without realising parents are in the same boat as yourself, that they are children, too, you can't forgive them for being frail and human. But until you learn to forgive, you yourself are crippled, can't begin to grow up. Through writing Marnie I faced the truth and found understanding. It made things a lot better."
That said, the relationship as portrayed in the film definitely comes across as queer, and I was so disappointed when it was revealed that Marnie was Anna's grandmother 😭
Your comments re Robinson's relationship with her mother are accurate, and that quote is actually taken from a newspaper article (The Guardian. Hannah Carter. 29th September 1969.) However, if you take the time to do some deep research you'll learn that Yonebayashi decided to stay as close to the source material, i.e. the book, as possible, hence the somewhat flowery language between Anna and Marnie. Furthermore, these declarations of love between the two girls is typical for the era in which the book was written and in no way does it imply lesbian tendencies in either character.
I have personally interviewed Robinson's daughter, who made it clear that she disapproves of any imposition onto the source material of a 'queer' theme, as her mother never intended such an interpretation. Any such interpretation is shallow and simply exposes the interpreter's predisposed bias. There is absolutely no queer subtext in any of Robinson's notes and early draft I was privileged to be given access to. In short, Anna is not, nor has she ever been or will ever be gay. To claim otherwise is not only a disservice to the author and the original material, it is also insulting.
One last point, which any fan of Ghibli's catalogue should know, is that Ghibli has never defined its characters by their sexuality. In fact Ghibli goes to great lengths to avoid such. Hence its works are wholesome and intended to encourage children to develop themselves through mental self-exploration and hard work.
@landscapedetective4064 people are allowed to have their own interpretations.
an author may state that their idea differs from audience interpretation, but to say that stating ones own perceived meaning is an insulting imposition is harsh.
it may not have been intentionally queer and time may have changed the general perception of the language used, but it made me feel seen and i truly believe my perspective is just as valid as any other (just maybe not as aligned with authorial intentions haha).
@landscapedetective4064 Saying any queer interpretation is “disservice” and “insulting” sounds incredibly accusatory when many of the reviews in this very video show that “confused” is a far better fitting and compassionate description. You yourself said many of the declarations of love between the two girls in the movie were “typical of the era”, and since this book was not released in this era, people would naturally not be aware of that and just make the mistake of seeing it as romantic because it would be in this era. Many people are unaware that this work was based on a book where the character is based on the author’s mother, and without the knowledge you have, anyone could easily make the mistake of seeing the relationship as being romantic. I think you must either be very attached to this work and your frustration that people aren’t getting the message that you understand the work to actually be about is leading you to lash out, and while I understand your frustration, it’s a bit cruel to be so harsh in judging other people for their misinterpretations of a work, especially when you know you have more information than them. You must be aware that getting to interview the author and even seeing an early draft is a level of insight not even average fans of the book have gotten, and railing against people without taking that into account is a bit extreme.
Your last bit about Ghibli movies not defining characters by their sexualities also seems to come with the misunderstanding that by reading this movie as gay, people are obsessed with defining characters by their sexualities. It’s not that fans who think this is gay are just obsessed with defining the characters through sexuality, it’s more like because we associate the flowery language with romance, and they use it a lot, it ends up coming off as very romantic for those not in the know about the era centric language. People’s insistence about how gay it is is directly proportional to how many romantic comments they think it has.
Lastly, it’s a bit odd to bring up how Ghibli doesn’t define it’s characters by it’s sexualities and is as a result, wholesome, because it 1) implies sexualities and their portrayal are inherently unwholesome and 2) just isn’t true? Plenty of Ghibli movies feature characters’ attraction to each other serving to move the plot along. Just going off the top of my head there’s Whisper of the Heart, The Cat Returns, Ponyo, Howl’s Moving Castle, and Princess Mononoke. It also seems like a big simplification to say it’s works are intended to help children with mental self exploration and learning hard work. I wouldn’t say Ghibli is super edgy, but you’re describing it’s catalogue almost like it’s Disney when a lot of it’s movies focus on things like genocide and war. There are plenty of Ghibli movies not like that, but you’re kind of acting like those are the only Ghibli movies out there.
@@landscapedetective4064 I can tell you are very passionate about the book and Ghibli in general, but honestly this response is just strange. I never said Anna IS gay. Nor did I say it was Ghibli's intention to include any queer subtext in the film. When I first watched the film (with no prior knowledge of the plot or source material) I interpreted the relationship between Anna and Marnie as mildly romantic until the ending was revealed. It's just a subjective interpretation based on how the characters interacted in the film. Everyone can have their own subjective interpretations of art, and moreover can change these interpretations when they have more information. I do not see how these explorations are in any way insulting to the source material or author. Even if the film is very close to the book, it is still a different entity. And art is subjective after all - you can't control how people respond to art.
@@adele131the Tanabata festival was an analog to Anna’s experience with Marnie. In the Tanabata festival mythos, two lovers are separated by a river. Why include that in this film if Anna’s connection with Marnie didn’t feel romantic?
Even Marnie’s was. Anna was living the memories of her grandfather after all.
On one hand, as a gay man, I also thought this was a movie about a lesbian relationship and I was very disappointed when it was revealed that Marnie was Anna's grandma. However, as a grandma's boy and a sufferer of depression, I found the fact that Marnie's spirit basically helping Anna through her depression to be very heartwarming and it reminded me of my bond with my grandmother. So I can almost forgive the movie for queerbaiting me. Almost though. And the funny thing is is that my grandmother came out as gay a couple of years after I did and that strengthened our already strong bond even more since we were the only two gay people in our family, so we were like kindred spirits. I miss my grandma...
man thats so sweet.
yo same im still ok with the ending cuz my granny is the only grandparent i ever bonded with and their bond is so damn precious. i also miss my grandma, she left way too soon. man i wish the movie didn't end that way but it was still beautiful nonetheless
That's so cute 🥺💞
So basically
You're Anna but without the ghost of gay past?
This is so wholesome I cannot cope ❤️❤️❤️❤️🌈
Lmao as an aromatic person watching you say romance is regarded as the most beautiful thing in this universe only to immediately wrap it up with 'if you're aromantic then it's red dead redemption II' genuinely made my day 👏
Yes although I can't agree. What about plants? Plants are way better.
@@kaos8728 I have to admit plants are pretty great, but what about imagination and stories? Elite. Especially old mythological stories alight with fantasy and magic- think faerie myths involving trickery, magic and not to mention an abundance of forest shrubbery 🌳✨
@@eternalelune2858 Stories and myths are great aswell. Also cats.
Fellow aromantic, I had a good laugh. While we don't experience "romantic" love, we can and do love friends and family and pets and "Red Dead Redemption II"
honestly as a fellow aromantic i feel so happy that they acknowledge us cause we’re often ignored yk?? also i agree imaginative stories,,, chefs kiss 😩
They were blushing whenever they hugged each other or even just touched hands. Anybody would think they're in love with each other. I'm so confused...
I feel both comforted and attacked at the same time while watching this
i have two brain cells and one is focusing on what you're saying and feeling attacked while the other just goes "ooh pretty lights go on and off"
I spent the whole video watching the lights too lol
One important aspect that you missed is that Anna isn't just upset about Nobuko's prying about her eye color for no reason. People who are mixed in Japan often get singled out and bullied and while she 'passes' as Japanese, her sense of being Other is heightened by how she looks. In a society that specifically values conformity, looking and feeling different is especially painful. This can obviously also be seen as a parallel to sexual orientation, but it's an important cultural aspect that kinda gets lost when people watch this movie and don't know about this aspect of Japanese society.
Nobuko treat's Anna's looks as something interesting... almost exotic, the way she talks about her eye color. It adds to Anna already feeling emotionally isolated from others and leads to her lashing out not just because she thinks she's a bad person, but specifically to protect herself by hurting Nobuko.
Yeah, that is something most people who aren't familiar with Japanese culture miss: the dynamics of how things that signal your difference from the 'average' Japanese person can be used against you. Anna having blue eyes means she has to have some non-Japanese heritage and would likely get her treated differently. It is interesting because by calling Nobuko fat, she is also shifting the focus of 'who isn't properly Japanese' to an area where Nobuko would be seen as falling short of the ideal.
But fat girls and women are extremely harassed and dehumanised too, in Japanese society. And seen as less than. I absolutely hate movies that take people that are oppressed and dehumanised and make their pain unimportant. She is just a side character and this contributes to real world shit. Anna is the protagonist and redeemed, we are made to feel for her, identify with her. Not so with Nobuko. This shit is bigoted and it is the only Ghibli movie I actively despise.
10/10 can confirm. I’m half Japanese and grew up in a mostly white area. All they did all the time was nit pick how I’m like or unlike white or Japanese people. I never did fit into either group. It did not help my social anxiety and depression at the time but as an adult I’ve healed.
@@thedanespeaks just cause the fat character is a side character in a movie unrelated to that struggle, the movie is bigoted? The movie treats what Anna says to that girl as terrible thing to say and then it moves in cause this is a story about a mentally distressed girl getting over her trauma not about her learning to stop calling fat people pigs. Nobuko is a plot device but that doesn’t mean that her depiction is bigoted it just means she’s not the focus
I saw the movie yesterday, a french subbed version, and the dialogue was harsher and had more racist undertones - certainly I don't remember the blue eyes being described as beautiful - just peculiar, and almost like a stranger - however I don't speak japanese, so I'm at a loss at to which interpretation is more accurate.
Not that it diminishes much the overall good intentions of the girl, it mostly intensifies the clumsiness of the attempt at connection and heightens the trigger for aggression on anna's part.
BRO THIS MOVIE CONFUSED ME SO MUCH LIKE I CANT BELIEVE I UNKNOWINGLY SUPPORTED INCEST 💀
BRUH UR STRESSING ME OUT WITH THE STRING LIGHTS
Istg I was super mad when they revealed Marnie was Anna's grandma because the whole movie I was like "Shit, I wish I had a mysterious girlfriend that helped me get out of the bottomless pit corona threw me into, too :,(" Seriously, why can't we have nice things?
I was surprised they weren't gay too. But I actually like the plot twist, I think it's more meaningful than simply having anna be falling for some ghost.
I'm guessing it's because LGBT is pretty stigmatized in Japan. Even if there's yuri and yaoi, gay people aren't accepted there like it is in the western world
@@otakyun3931 that is most likely not the case since the movie based off the book that has pretty much the exact same plot. the only difference is the book takes place somewhere in the UK.
@@daphnedaphn3 bcs it is. most key event that happened to her was the story that marnie tell her when she was little. she wont let go the marnie doll she have when marnie was dead (which makes sense why its hard for her to let go marnie, literally mad when marnie 'left' her). well she's probably gay too tho, and from what i get marnie was probably her first love such as "father was a daughter first love" term.
The plot twist was still pretty great imo
"instead i made my teachers worried and i hurt my mommy's feelings" oof that one hit
My mommy is the person I inherited my depression from so she was like "OH SHIT, THAT'S SOME FUCKING GUILT RIGHT THERE!" :(
Same 🤣
I always figured the writers knew she was her grandma and they somehow neglected to tell the artists, who came to a very (understandably) different conclusion
i've personally theorised for years since seeing marnie for the first time that this (being based off a book originally) is definitely in the category of a book an author wrote eons ago - back when you could only write queer romance as pulp fiction, and at least one of the characters (if not both) has to die at the end in order for you to get published and not censored - where a publisher definitely could've looked at the author and been like "make them related, otherwise people will say this is [redacted] and it won't sell." it's just so... [gesturing] yknow?
"her sad little gay drawings" i'm dead
THEY WERE BASICALLY CALLING EACH OTHER 𝓜𝔂 𝓛𝓲𝓽𝓽𝓵𝓮 𝓢𝓮𝓬𝓻𝓮𝓽✨ AND HAVING RENDEZVOUS AT NIGHT TIME, THE WAY MARNIE FROLICKED IN THE MOONLIGHT WITH ANNA AND THE PICNIC SCENE AND GOOD LORD THE BOAT SCENE WAS ADORABLE
and then they tell us they're family. Wow.
Wth? My family and I never even experienced something like that.
Everything about the movie was so romantic. Well, to me personally.
Wth? My family and I never even experienced something like that.
Everything about the movie was so romantic. Well, to me personally.
_The DANCE was in NO WAY WHATSOEVER _*_STRAIGHT_*
@@iknowthatyouregayfireflies9992 She's relieving her grand-mother memories through her grandfather experience, that's why the scenes are romantic
They have never said i love im japanese and all they said was i care for you
i remember shortly after this movie came out me and some people watched it in a discord server and everyone but the one hosting had never seen it before so we were all rightfully like 'oh this is so gay' and the hoster was like "please dont say that" and i was like. ok? and obviously it was a shock when it was revealed that they were related and i think about it so much
I think the movie leaves it open whether it was actually a ghost or if it was all in Anna’s mind. Throughout the movie she is seen going off with Marnie, but when we cut back to reality she is actually asleep in random areas. It could be that the encounters with Marnie are a visceral reaction Anna’s already strained brain is having to being confronted to the house she remembers from the photo she got when Marnie was still alive. All of the adventures they have are things that Marnie told her when she was very little, which is why they match up with reality. It could be that the only way for her to dig up these incredibly repressed memories was to have this wild experience of seeing Marnie and hanging out with her. It also makes sense why this comforting love from Marnie was there from the start because the adventures are tied to memories of an affectionate and loving grandma.
Okay I thought I was crazy for thinking they were gay. I thought they were gay before I even knew it was a thing that existed xD When it was revealed that Marnie was Anna's grandmother I was like, "really? That was a grandmother bonding with her grandaughter?" Like ??? I really interpreated alot of the moments they spent together as romantic and I'm glad I'm not the only one!
ikr i nearly felt embarrased, im so glad it wasnt just me
@4Freedom4All i mean yeah i get cultural nuances but also gay ppl exist all over the world, including japan.
@4Freedom4All thats a fair point
Home sweet home Alabama
@4Freedom4All Idk if I should add to this discussion tbh but I'm not even from the west... I still see your point and its 100% valid and the platonic relationship and affection between the protagnist and her grandmother was the actual intention of the movie and its wholesome as heck.
What I wanted to say was that before it was revealed they were related I truly thought there was some romantic undertones. The thing with platonic and romantic gestures is that they overlap alot so I could see why some people would interpet those moments one way or the other, hence why this video exist, because a lot of people saw their interactions in a romantic light before the reveal. Idk when I was younger and thought I was watching 2 girls fall in love, apart of me felt really happy because I didn't know girls can like eachother at all considering where I live. When it was revealed they were related I was bummed out but still loved the movie since Anna got to grow so much as a person. Facing her insecurities and problems while also getting the chance to spend time with her deceased grandmother one more time.
It also helped me learn new things about myself, so I cherish it alot! I think alot of people saw themselves in Anna. (If you cant tell this is one of my favourite Ghibili movies. I swear I cry at the end everytime)
I actually went through the whole story believing the main character was gay.
Like she had an actual crush on Marnie.
The actual truth of who Marnie was made me feel really awkward.
Darn it.
Don't we all *sighs*
Didn't she? Suprise blood ties but be instant turn off, but it doesn't erase their chemistry.
Having your tween love stolen away by your grandpa is so sad, I would have spiralled back into depression by this whole mess
Seriously, I can't really look at the ending with a straight face. The movie CLEARLY SHOWS a lot of sign anna has a CRUSH. Then waddayuknow, Marnie is her grandma. Well if were anna, I would be so creeped out that a have a crush on MY GRANDMAAAA. But still their chemistry was fascinating, and I will just pretend their not relatives.... :). In the end, I guess if Marnie wasn't her grandmother, the story wouldn't be much more better but I guess lest memorable ending?
i wish she was just some random girl who could time travel lmao that was so messed up how they made Anna blush around her all the time and confess her love to marnie several times just to be like ‘she’s actually her grandma’
i saw a 30 minute review of why Ocean Waves by Studio Ghibli was also very gay (but ended with a cop out) and the comments mentioned this movie who has that same vibe, so im glad a video was made about it too
i think i came from the same video 😁
"Look at her hair. She draws. Turtleneck. Gay."
Hello new tinder bio.
It's true tho.
i would swipe right so fast
fun fact: in the book, the sad boat dudes name is "wuntermenny" and anna finds out that its because he was the last of eleven kids, so when he was born his mom said he was "one too many" ..... yeah.
damn... so wait, he's also not (entirely) ethnically japanese? If his name is sorta bastardized english? Because I wondered about taht in the film. His thick beard and the way his eyes were drawn made me think he (Toichi) might have been coded as white.
Also, my dad was also the last of eleven kids.
Wait so toichi was called " Wuntermenny"
@@maximeteppe7627 The book isn't set in Japan, it's set in Norfolk, England. Ghibli sort of did the same thing they did with Howl's Moving Castle, where they take a very Western story and seamlessly adapt it so that it fits in with Japanese themes and ideas.
Point being, I don't think Toichi was coded as white. In fact, the only character who could arguably be so is Marnie - she's the only one with a non-Japanese name, firstly, and is also naturally blonde which I don't think is particularly common in Japan.
NOOOO POOR TOICHI 😭
Omg, like Wyborne Coraline!! 🤣
"The Fat Phobic Gay Orphan Attack of 2014" Alright you got a sub my man, well earned
As an aromantic who loves Code Geass, I can see LeLouch as aromantic. (I also appreciate being seen.)
Me thinking the whole movies was a mixed race adopted girl coming to terms with her history while feeling like an outsider because monoracism and xenophobia, but also, adoption is trauma.
EDIT: I mean, that how I interpreted her being pushed over the edge talking about her blue eyes with the little girl. I know I frequently felt a weird kind of anger when monoracial white girl compliments my curls, but it a way like “come over and see them, guys! Isn’t this cool.” Like, oh a mixed race spectacle! Although, my twelve year old response was usually “thanks” and pretend I was not dying inside lol?
I felt it meant that Anna felt that Adoption trauma because she felt like a burden, and others were nice to her but I think she felt unwanted or like not belonging.
And she lost her parents so maby even some survivers guilt?
the fact that it’s her grandma, makes the secret thing sound a whole lot creepier
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. It makes it sound gay but then she ends up being her grandmother… so yeah it’s weird.
It makes a lot of things in this movie a lot creepier 💀.
Yeah, they should have just allowed themselves to change that part in adaptation too, instead of chickening out at the last minute. Other than Marnie and Anna no longer being related, it wouldn’t have affected the main story at all. It feels like they were pressured to backtrack on the gayness by some studio head and were forced to add that in the end.
their best friends, yall are gross, marnie didnt't have any friends growing up, you guys are just perverts
Not really its just cultural differences they didn't do things that are inherently romantic
“You can’t put me back on I can see everything now.” The voice in my head telling me to go off my meds was activated by that statement lol
Imma stay on them though
Khadija?? I love that we're on the same side of the internet lol love your channel!
@@nanamiharuka3269 hiiiii
Heyyyy Khadija!
Wholesome gamer moment
I'm scream laughing, that line killed me 😂❤
“her sad, gay little drawing” got me
I expected to hate this video essay but it really resonated with me. Like you said in the first half, people are able to see themselves in Anna and I think that's why it's so easy for many of us to liken our gay experiences to Anna's friendship with Marnie. I will admit, during the rowboat scene I did question if they were lesbians but I resolved to realize that both girls were living lonely lives and connected on a deep and intimate but platonic level. I believe that in Marnie's reality, she saw visions of Anna during her childhood due to her neglection and somehow the marsh was able to bring them together in an alternate reality/dream state. I think it's worth noting that nature of their relationship may have been lost in translation and that a Japanese audience may have only seen them as close friends
"j- just lOOK AT THAT TURTLENECK-
_it looks too good to be straight_ "
Exactly 😭
This whole essay came for my throat as a depressed gay 12 year old who draws, and a depressed gay 21 year old who draws.
Same...
Same. And my deadname being her name, literally all of it bruh
I'm incredibly late to this video, but, it means a lot to hear you talking openly about your BPD. As someone with BPD I don't find much representation of BPD outside from folks calling us monsters. So, thank you for that. Genuinely.
also on the lelouch thing as a aro myself, he could be. Also dont forget that aromantics dont mean 100% non romantic, its just less of a thing for us. Lelouch seemed to be very focused in his ideals and self that addition things like romance in this sense didnt really mean enough.
It’s like they were making this movie and someone in charge noticed it was little too gay but they didn’t want to change anything so they just added a time traveling grandma backstory
It's based on an British novel from the sixties. Marnie was always her grandma.
no that’s just part of the original source material
if you really want a Ghibli movie like that you gotta watch Ocean Waves, there is a really good youtube video "Ocean Waves - Studio Ghibli's (Accidental) Queer Film" about it
Thank you for letting me know
Thank you I didn’t not know this
Anna literally self-inserted as Marnie's husband (she knew what was going on because of Marnie's diary, and SELF INSERTED as her grandfather) that's why the scenes are romantic (eg the one with the jacket), that's GAY bae....she self-inserted....
or maybe just the Silo part she was him, as its the only part she gets called anything other than anna. The rest was Hisako, the painter which she didnt pick for obvious "homophobic society" reasons... just saying, that painter literally had her gift left behind, as marnie couldnt bear remembering the heart she broke. Marnie's bi(or just 'arranged wedding' gay).
I'm Brazilian, and when he started to talk about how upset we are, i have never been so proud of my country or the people who speak my language ;-;
Also, I literally just watch this freaking movie for the gayness ,_,
So do I
1 of my friends:
Do you watch when marnie was there just for the plot?
Plot: gayness
Me: oh he'll yea
( I don't know my sexaulity yet I'm 10 turning 11)
"portuguese people" brazilian dude. If it's something about shipping and gay people, it's probably us lol.
I never took it as Marnie's ghost doing time travel shenanigans to cure her granddaughter's depression through baby gay love. To me it was all in Anna's mind and she manifested the stories her subconscious remembered of someone she thought would understand her better
Legit thought I was the only one, I'm glad I found this comment.
iirc, the book either straight up says or heavily implies that that's what happened.
Same
Yeah, pretty obvious smh brainlets everywhere
You know that actually makes so much sense because that is something some ppl have experienced during their depression phase as a coping mechanism
In the original dub, when Marnie and Anna are in the woods they say aishiteru. Which is the most intense phrase you can say for I love you in Japanese. It wouldn't be said by family members typically, and only super rarely by actual couples! It's definitely not a platonic I love you. And when I heard that I fully accepted that this is 100% a dramatic lesbian romance. That's why the plot twist made me so mad 😑
The most intense is "koi" but yeah pretty close.
My high school Japanese teacher explained the difference between suki, daisuki, and aishiteru as being more in terms of "permanence" more than platonic- or romantic-ness. Paraphrasing what she said: suki is for *potentially* temporary or flippant affection for something or someone; daisuki is for passions or obsessions, affection *expected* to last a long time, or even a lifetime; aishiteru is for affection that cannot be changed, eternal, life transcending affection - and not necessarily romantic or platonic. She said that mothers saying they love their kids was mostly the only time she could remember anyone using aishiteru. Well, mothers for their kids and American service men with shitty phrase books trying to get laid.
Her explaining these concepts this way actually led me to introspect on what the degrees and kinds of affection I felt were. At the time, I had ended up determining the degrees to be "0" and kinds to be "none" because, which I know now only in hindsight, my depression was so bad at that point that my feelings were completely muted and I thusly had begun questioning if I even ever had the ability to feel.
It was 10 years after that introspection before I was able to get actual help. I do think that introspection that led me to describing myself as "probably soulless" or "sociopathic" did help me get that eventual help. Now that I'm on medication, the thought of going back to that disconnected, numbing void terrifies me more than death.
Anyways, taking Japanese was the best decision I somehow managed to make in all of my school career, especially for all the mental and emotional help Ms. Suzuki gave me.
Sorry for the very random reply I'm no longer sure why I wrote but still feel compelled to post....
@@megan_bond thank you for sharing :)
@@megan_bond Wow that was a great read
@@noecogu that's simply incorrect!
10:28 Tried this, have to fight her 7 evil exes now
Scott??
13:13 why does you trying to escape your net prison of christmas lights somehow add visually to your explanation of a whole entire other issue
"Anna is sitting away from the kids that are playing on the playground. They're all laughing and having fun. But her head is down, and focused on her only solace: her sad gay little drawings"
That's just 12 year old me during p.e class lmao
this is too real.....
I bet 80% of those comments were actually Brazilian, we are everywhere. Also the whole Ghibli collection just became available in Netflix Brazil, so LOL
SIM
O jeito que estavam digitando não tem nada de português, é 100% br kkkkkkk
@@gabbs8955 exato
I was going to say the same thing, the way they're written is definetly brazilian
nossa sim a gente tá em todo lugar já dominamos o mundo faz tempo KKKKKK
exato pra esse comentário e todas as respostas
This was like an extra chaotic version of are they gay. I love it.
“She draws, turtleneck, gay!” Hit me so deep 😂 GOT ME
I love how all those reviews are just in Brazilian Portuguese. Ah, the sweet taste of the sorrow of my people.
Que bom que outra pessoa percebeu. É uma parada bem bizarra ouvir a língua da forma que o brasileiro usa no sotaque português. Nem Dom Pedro aguentaria hahah
eu vendo isso agora
somos pessoas de cultura e sofremos por coisas que valem a pena
Up
Foi mo estranho ele lendo com sotaque português ksjdjdkdjd
I always took it as Anna's grandmother's spirit helping her granddaughter to come to terms with her gayness by allowing her to take the place of her grandfather (weird but okay yeah). So Anna can experience a romantic connection in a safe accepting environment and come to terms with herself with the help of her loved ones. So it's gay yeah
omg yes, this is what i thought too
This was my takeaway too. I think it still gets across what it was trying to, gay people can still relate to it and it's not suddenly invalidated because of a plot twist. It all still happened and the feelings these characters had were still real.
that's like. training-wheels style incest. it's a good thing that the in-universe mechanics make this a scenario where Anna isn't being groomed or facing serious consequences. In-universe it's almost like fiction.
@4Freedom4All not everything is for political reasons and I don't believe that is
@4Freedom4All damn I've read your comments and you're always on the verge of saying something that could be interesting but u fuck it up 😔
I need, with my whole soul and body, an entire video of you talking about Code Geass. Please.
Another thing i noticed, in the beginning of the movie she would never show her art to anyone, would allways hide it away or cover it up. (Hidden part of her, like point you made about the queerness and marnie) But once she’s ‘forgiven’ marnie or maybe accepted that part of her she’s able to show the painting lady her drawing, aswell as other people .
This feels like a therapy session AND a read at the same time
Me a brazillian girl who is upset beacause they are not gay: I feel represented
Eu aí
muito br aqui né KKKKKKKKKK
Siiiim
SIIIIMMMM QUE ODIOOOOOoOOOoOOOOOoOOOOOo
nossa muito mais q eu esperava fml
4:25 "her sad gay little drawings"
"I just repeat things my therapist said to me and act like it's conversation" honestly same.
as a portuguese, i found it surprising how you assumed that brazilian portuguese comments were actually portuguese portuguese which is the complete opposite of what the entire internet always does
Plotwist: they're all Angolan.
@@XuiLeeEv hope thats a joke, the things he showed were clearly written by Brazilians
@@wllyfht Yes, it's a joke. Since most non-Portugeuse speakers will assume any Portuguese comment is from Brazil or Portugal, it would be an unexpected result of actually the dozens of comments were from Angola, because Angola also has many Portuguese speakers but is rarely the assumed country.
@@XuiLeeEv that would be funny indeed
I mean the state of são paulo alone has more people than the entirety of portugal, and it's just like 1/20 of the entire population, so it makes sense that generally someone speaking portuguese online has a high chance of being brazillian (pra quem não fala português e não nota as diferenças)
between your aesthetic, the topic, and your hot takes I'm honestly surprised you're not more popular. Never the less I stan a good video essayist.
I think the algorithm's picking this channel up a bit now
Just saw his video today and I subscribed. Thanks to the CZcams's recommendation. 😄
I just joined the club I need more of this content
I just subbed, this channel deserves more
To the person who did the European Portuguese voice lines even though they're Brazilian, you did wonderful! Portuguese person here and didn't even notice until I read the description, great voice acting!
I was also 12 when I first watched this movie (I own it but I've only seen it that one time) and I remember getting half way through the movie and being like "are they gay?" and then losing my shit over the plot twist at the end.
Me and my best friend watched this movie bc we were like "Ghibli AND seems really fucking gay? 😳" The anger we felt over the ending, this was the worst stab in the back I've ever been through 😭😭😭
wait till you watch ocean waves babe now That's a backstab
@@xXWithoutMyHeroesXx ocean waves romanticizes Rikako and Taku's toxic relationship
@@neilnova2062 literally yes, the ending makes the whole movie bad in retrospective
i watched this in 7th grade in my japanese class, i was thinking “wow is this gay? i’m so happy sensei is an ally! love the representation” then when it was exposed to be her grandmother i was just sitting in class like: why the fuck am i here 😀
glad someone else had this experience
@@blackmouldtheres a lot of people who have childhood memories of people being tricked by this movie
8:50 I love the brazilian studio ghibli fanbase lmao
I feel like love, regardless of if it is platonic or romantic, is one of the most important things
Gay awakening to your own grandmother, its giving me Back to The Future vibes. Or that episode of Futurama, you know the one
my straight friend forced me to watch this movie to confirm that there was indeed gay vibes between them (She was very confused that they were related)
lmaooo literally inviting a specialist to analyze it
This is the funniest thing lmao imagine being like "I think this is gay but I'm straight so let me call in the experts" that is amazing
I saw this in a little theater in NYC with a girl friend of mine, and we’re both whispering the whole time “they’re so gay omg.” We were so rocked by the reveal
bisexual, borderline, AND a code geass fan???? i love this channel
Studio Ghibli has a pattern with treating romance with a sledgehammer to the knee: On Poppy Hill's romance was derailed by the protagonists possibly being related, then when it was proven otherwise each felt too awkward, Princess Mononoke's romance never got further than "that boy wanted to spend his life with you", the list goes on
Wolf Girl was too awesome for a romance subplot
Whisper of the Heart wasn't too bad. Although they are supposed to be middle schoolers so it's pretty unrealistic lol
The build up of Ghibli stories
"Friends to platonic friends"
imo the point of Princess Mononoke isn't the romance in a traditional sense, though. These two people barely know each other and the plot of the movie itself only takes place over a couple of days, most of it focused on surviving and fighting, so it makes sense they wouldn't end up as a traditional couple.
The movie itself is about Ashitaka and San, how they are different and how they are similar: They both want to save the forest, but they come from two very different perspectives. Ashitaka wants to protect humans from destroying nature and themselves. San wants to destroy humans so she can protect nature. Both of them are confronted with the fact that hate is the ultimate destroyer. Ashitaka is physically cursed with it and witnesses humans not just destroying nature, but also each other. San has to realize that even the powerful spirits she fights with and for can be destructive and violent.
They both come to care for each other, but San doesn't necessarily have the emotional capability to return Ashitaka's feelings the way a 'regular' human could. She's not of the human world and the end of the movie makes it clear that Ashitaka represents an aspect of humanity she comes to accept about herself. At the same time, Ashitaka has to accept that the closest he can be to her is to live close to her. He still cares more about keeping humans and nature safe, while San has made peace with the knowledge that someone she trusts will aim for harmony.
Like, not every story about romance has to end with the characters in a traditional romantic relationship. That's not always the point.
Yeah and the one where they do explicitly have the two protagonists kiss and say they want to spend their lives together...is fucking PONYO where they are 5 years old!! like I get it was based on the little mermaid but they reaally could have come up with a different ending.
(that said...I adore Howl and Sophie from Howls Moving Castle as a couple)
Something else that I related too other than GAY was that Anna is mixed race! - I really think this adds another dimension to the reactions of people around her, like commenting on her eyes and dividing up her physical attributes to FOREIGN and ‘normal’. ***This is why she reacts so aggressively when her blue eyes are commented on.*** “The great sin” she commits is being the ten thousand millionth person to comment on her ‘gaijin’ otherness and then turns to her group and says “HeY LOOkIT THIiIIS!,!”
Good point
I don’t want to sound dumb, but is it possible for somebody who’s mixed race to have light eyes?
@@kiera6326 it is possible! Blue eyes tend to be a recessive gene so you need 2 parents to have the blue eye gene (even if they dont show it it's a possibility in their DNA) If chance allows it the 1 blue gene and the other 1 blue gene meet up and make blue eyes possible. But brown eyes have more of a chance to happen because they are dominant if present. So technically at minimum ,if possible, there is a 25% chance of happening
I always thought the tipping point was her physically taking something private and personal from her hands and reading it aloud - I really FELT that whilst watching.
she's like barely mixed
Anna is coping in life and her grandma was helping her realize who she is. And when she finds out who marnie was it just hammers home that layer of reality and it hits so hard because you realize life is calm but hard when young and when you grow old life changes a lot and it can get out of control as expressed through the story of marnies life.
The fact that you are tying yourself up while discussing this romance issue makes me laugh so hard😂😂😂😂
I saw somebody say that if you thought that it was gay that you don't "understand Japanese storytelling"??? Like if the grandma was actually her Grandpa everyone would have shipped them until the plot twist
Exactly! It would be so normal for them to ship these two if Marnie was her grandpa
I’m japanese and it was totally queerbaiting, it’s just that japanese audience likes to pretend that gayness doesn’t exist in their own culture so instead they’ll tell themselves that foreigners just “don’t get it” etc
@@meiblack8934 well yeah of course it would, because then that would be marnies husband. but the issue is that anna is marnies granddaughter. so it's more than a little weird to view it as anything other than familial love between them. just bc anna may have "replaced" the role of marnies husband at certain points doesnt mean theres some romantic subtext between them. it's just how time was replaying and anna happened to be in those situations at the time.
@@puppycatsbee I was talking about a world where Marnie is a man. Not about marnie’s husband dude
I watched this film in theatres....and I was like THIS IS GAY. THIS IS GAY RIGHT??? NO, WAIT, IT'S NOT BUT...IT IS????? I also think that there may be a way for Marnie and Anna to be experiencing a non-sexual type of love. One that may be romantic but at the same time is completely platonic and deeply valid. It also happens in a lot of Ghibli films like Spirited Away. It's hard to fit it in a box, but these two were intimate in a way I've never seen in animation before and part of me thinks the animators were in on it .
id say it fits within the realm of a qpr. as a romance repulsed aromantic this is the exact sort of relationship i want, something intimate that pushes the bounds of what is considered platonic with no romance whatsoever
Lol yeah the first time I watched it I was like is this gay?? But someone woulda told me if there was a gay ghibli film?? But this seems very gay- oh.
Also I think the non-sexual love in a lot of ghibli films tends to arise from the fact the characters are often children, like this video discusses. So the way love and intimacy is expressed is a bit different to an adult relationship. Those types of relationships are totally valid in adults too, but I think that’s what motivates that type of representation in a lot of ghibli films.
@@georgecooper9766 thats what i thought too. i was like "wait tHERES AN ACTUAL QUEER FILM??? MADE BY STUDIO GHIBLI???WITH GOOD REPRESENTATION???" only to get disappointed at the end. the plot twist was great nonetheless, i still loved the movie.
I think it might also be cultural attitudes, from what I have seen people are often more physically intimate as friends there than in the West. For example when I was in a Tokyo high school as part of a school trip I saw a boy sitting in his friend's lap, which would be very unusual here
I was peacefully comfort eating and suppressing my emotions when you hit me with 6:30. Absolutely fucking brutal but I'm gonna cry and send this to my therapist. I don't know if I needed it but I'm gonna use it.
It should probably be said, this is not meant as criticism. If anything, evoking such a powerful response in me shows that this is good art.
Same 🥲
I am personally attacked by this acknowledgment of feeling attacked by this honest and raw portrayal of depression.
I refuse to learn anything from this.
same
the scene where anna doesn't get to show the teacher her drawing made me so emotional the first time i saw it but everyone else watching was confused as to why anna was so upset. relating to anna so hard when everyone else thought she was just a negative person was really eye opening to me, kinda one of the first signs my hereditary bipolar started kicking in
Same
yeah 😢
Tbh I'm also confused, would you mind to tell me why ?
@@Kacangtanah78 I can’t speak for OP, but for me personally, watching Anna (a normally painfully shy, introverted, anxious to the point of antisocial person) Anna has a severe abandonment wound, so when the teacher asked her to show her art (something that is incredibly personal and showing it would feel very vulnerable because she’s opening herself up to rejection or criticism, because everyone loves to be a critic when it comes to art), the fact that the teacher who asked to see her art had to then leave, to Anna that felt like a rejection of not only her art, but of her personally, when in reality it was just an emergency and not personal, Anna took it very personally. Hope that makes sense.
@@loverrlee ahhhhh that explains a lot. Thank you for your insight
"A feeling that humanity values more than just feeling good is feeling seen" God that hit me between the fucking eyes!!! Also your voice is beautiful and I will be subscribing☺️
First video, and honestly that's all I needed to subscribe.
Also this movie hit right in like... 10 different angles.
It was the depression, the underlying gay energy and when that gets yeeted out the window because time traveling grandma, its her relationship with her grandma and how she was raised by her for part of her infancy.
Just, fucking, AAAAAAAA
this video came directly for my throat
also 15:05 is my aggressively straight therapist moving swiftly past me being in a healthy relationship for the first time and reminding me that i have depression