Can a TESLA VALVE save my beaver colony from HUGE FLOOD WATERS?
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2022
- We're trying out the water physics of Timberborn this time, and seeing whether a tesla valve can save my beaver colony from a catastrophic dam break!
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#realcivilengineer #timberborn #tesla - Hry
As can be seen when the water is leaving the canals, the water "diffracts" around the corners, appearing to behave more like a sound wave than a water flux. You could try the double slits experiment to see if there is a "safe" place in front of the tsunami for the beavers to live.
I mean wave physics is wave physics, I believe the analogy works bc water waves, sound waves, and quantum waves all do similar things. As others pointed out his assumptions are based on closed tubes rather than barriers.
maybe TB water is set up to behave more like its large scale? i wouldn't be surprised if poking a 100m wide gap in a skyskraper sized dam would also involve quite some sideways spill from the initial wall of water.
The min water amplitude is 0m, not negative. A double slit would make the safest space half the max height of the water, which is still bad
problem is that waves in this game don't have "momentum" tesla valve works because you crash wave on itself using momentum. Game don't have it in long run, there seems to be some momentum analog when water meets wall, but there is not when water meets water, nor when you have 100 block high wave running in straight line, which in real life would speed up all the way down from that standing pool .
let me say it again as well
Tesla valve don't stop water flow. It makes water waste momentum and slow it down, not stop it completely. IF he would leave a way for small amount to leave to the side, then it would make sense.
Double slit experiment would be super cool to see.
I'm not sure, but I think the visual water currents don't actually effect the physics, they are just like visual shaders, and the water doesn't have any momentum/inertia.
That's the problem. Not only is the water slow, its velocity never changes.
I have definitely seen water hammer in this game though, which suggests some inertia
@@frillneckedlizard8529 I don't know what that is. But, could it be the case that water behaves specifically due to that thing to just simulate inertia in that instance?
Yes. Water just checks for tiles that are lower in a small circle, and tries to spread itself equally to those from what I have seen
Water doesn't interact with itself like irl
I think you are a little bit off with your velocity assumption:
In a closed pipe a reduction of the diameter results in a higher velocity (with an incompressible fluid). But because your system is open, the fluid uses the open space above to release the "pressure" of the reduced diameter and just stacks higher (as you noticed). So the physics are probably correct :)
Edit: In a continous stream you should be correct, there the velocity should be higher in a narrower channel, but I think the tidal wave breaks the system because it generates a local pressure at the entrance of the narrow channel.
clever
but there is still a noticeable increase in velocity of flow at narrowing in channels. sure it won't be as much in pipes since the flow isn't restricted vertically, it should still increase by the height of the narrowest part of the channel.
@@takumi2023 In real life that is correct I think. But the game probably does not calculate a physically correct pressure distribution (or a (hydrostatic) pressure at all) and therefor uses the height to "get rid" of the damming up water.
@@Snifflezz_ It does simulate that, just not on a larger scale like he'd need for this concept to work in game. If you take a three block wide river and place a levee on two of the blocks, the water moves significantly faster through the remaining block. This increased flow rate allows you to create much more power with water wheels than you would by relying on the river's natural flow.
That level of simulation seems to kinda fall apart when you're dealing with this amount of water flow.
RCE is really growing as a super villain orchestrating disasters and solving them to look like a hero
"When everyone's an engineer, nobody is..."
He should consider getting into politics.
So the plot of Spider-Man Far From Home
"Bloody architect.."
-Matt, probably
Afterthought: I was thinking of the beaver RCEIsSecretlyAArchitect 😂 not Matt himself, it's a quarter after 4 in the morning 🤣 brain is fried
The _architect_ of the disasters, if you will...
The water physics in the game are mostly correct, the higher a wave the more water "flowing" through. Matt should try using dams on top of foundations or arches to 3-dimensionally constrain the water in a pipe, this should change the velocity of the water instead of the height if the game actually accounts for pressure.
I definitely think thinking 3d would make some kind of difference worth trying out
The game sadly doesn't allow building of dams on top of other blocks.
That's a good idea actually.. now I'm curious I wanna see that test
Actually it won't matter, the water physic in this game is like flow to next block when water lever>X, it didn't apply volumetric force or speed, not really a free flow system.
you cannot build an arch out of dam blocks sadly
It would be a really interesting concept with having occasional tsunamis instead of droughts and having to collect the water of the tsunamis.
If you have to collect the water of the occsional tsunami, it is just the droughts, with a different name.
Hey RCE, I think that the reason the water doesn´t go faster (or slower, depending on witch part of the video we are talking about) is because the height is limited in a tesla valve. I mean, in timberborn and cities skylines we can´t cover the top of the valve to limit de height and increase the speed, so the water just go up instead of speending up
Yeah, it did go sideways straight away during the first test and with inertia it should mostly continue forward.
If the game doesn't count with pressure to speed it won't slow down… but the going up wall makes it seem there is some momentum to the water physics
@@Basicskills957 but the pressure WOULDNT be increasing, pressure increases on uncompressible fluids due to it having nowhere else to go but in the direction of flow. tons and tons of energy is wasted in a simple open channel because it can go more up. pressure increases when there is no longer any space to fill, but there is still more energy flowing into the system. the energy has to equalize, therefore the pressure increases, and the water moves faster.
the general idea that speed increases also assumes a *continuous and equal flow* which is _also_ not the case here.
@@Basicskills957 we're not talking about that kind of pressure, that is a kind of atmospheric pressure. we're talking about the pressure coming out of, say, a nozzle.
@@Basicskills957 it is faster, but its because the nozzle would be attached to a hose, or some other kind of enclosed space. water moves faster out of a nozzle because water keeps pouring in, but there is less space for it to move through, so the only option is to move faster. this is not the case in the examples in the video, it can move more up.
ok so first mistake: you're limiting the inlet to the channel, instead of letting water in then restricting it. then the channel doesn't change with UNTIL the water reaches an intersection of two channels the same size as the original, which means the flow gets split in half.
if you look at a graphic of a Tesla valve, the loopy side channels are narrow, and the transitions are gradual & smooth, and the angles are directing back into the face of the flow your trying to disrupt, NOT the side of it which is what you're doing.
it might help to remember that the reverse flow direction is supposed to be THE EASIER PATH for the water to take. So you should start your design with the smooth reverse path, then add the side channels to it that you want the forward flow to get side-tracked on. remember that the side channels are supposed to be more restricted than the main channel (IRL)
game wise, I think it's still only calculating a wave-front, then working backwards, not applying any actual physics. I think differences in power production are calculated using simpler methods, not any sort of physics modeling.
You got all that from bad water physics? Pseudo-intellecualism at its finest
Cool story.
8:35 that screaming beaver was freakin perfect 🤣 chefs kiss 😙🤏
So a couple of things actually, having the beavers start at level ground isn't really a fair test in this game. I think you should set up a little beaver civilization going up steps to see where the water stops. With the base level beavers being 2 or 3 levels above ground floor since regardless of how much you stop a little is going to get through. You real goal is to have as little water get through as possible.
I also think that matt valve has some potential, though I actually wouldn't suggest filling them with water. Rather having a couple along the track to catch water and reduce the scale of wave, before it all falls back down reducing the wave's speed. Since this water seems to magnetize to all available space it might work.
I'm pretty sure Timberborn just uses a floodfill with layers. Tick 1: water level goes from 0->1 on adjacent tiles, Tick 2: 1->2 and adjacent tiles to that go from 0->1. No energy preservation, no momentum.
Possibly, but how would that explain why a water wheel in the middle of a 8 block river creates X amount of power, yet if necked down to 4 the wheel makes more power?
Not saying it figures momentum directly, but it has to have some sort of calculations for speed.
I seriously doubt it would work like Skylines though, where the front water line stays constant, regardless if it goes through a Tesla type valve or flows up a river.
@@outcast170 realistically I'd say that the speed calculations are coded in the wheel. like: if X blocks from shore, produce Y amount of power.
@@bt1234567892010 Possible, but it wouldn't be that simple. Could have swore when RCE tried it, the wheel didn't change position. The water was changed upstream. One long, 2 block river doesn't produce as much as an 8 wide stream dropped down to a 2 wide directly in front of it. Don't remember what he tested when he tried to do a sloped track generator.
But, I could be mistaken. It has been awhile.
@@outcast170 Well yeah, water always goes at the same speed, unless slowed down by a wheel or hitting a wall and turning a corner. Plus the wheel itself cannot be too submerged.
@@Goremize So what your saying is, an object in motion stays in motion unless acted apon by an outside force?
Kinda like how all cars go the same speed... Until they hit something and don't...
4:37 You'd think after just making the mistake of the water falling over the edge, he wouldn't make the same mistake so soon.
One important note about the Tesla valve is that it's meant so that flow is only slowed/restricted going one way, while far more free going the other. You'll always have some get through going the "restricted" way.
If you want something that just slows water down going only one way, I feel like the best solution is what you did when you closed off part of the Tesla valve.
Or, have a series of dams and lakes to "absorb" the volume of the tital wave. Basically have your open area, draw a series of walls, and put in staggered openings in the walls to represent the "travel corridors"
Btw, hello from an agricultural engineer! Just recently found your channel, and you made me buy and start playing Timberborne the other day. Lol
With timberborn when water reaches the end of a channel/canal it just spreads out in every direction immediately no matter the speed or anything else
Hey Matt, looks like you are trying to control a volume flow rate Q (m^3/s). However, your tests in City Skylines and Timberborn are in two dimensions. Narrowing the channel will force the height of the water to increase, but it will not increase the cross section velocity (m^2/s).
Unless you can control the cross secional area of flow by controlling the vertical dimension of the water, I don't think the Tesla valves will work as intended in these games.
Ooh... if you can, maybe its a neat idea to show us what a proper open water sim would make of the tesla canal and the matt valve!
You can actually time the waves by comparing the day/night indicator wheel. You can just release the dam at the beginning of day
2 quick tips first you can make the water source up to 8X amount by clicking on them and changing the value also water won't flow out if there's a source below it so you could have lined the edge with sources to stop it
At last RCE tries this in a game with good water physics
I dont think its that good tbh since it doenst get faster or slower but its ok ig
Not really that good, is it?
@@SamCanada1 "Better" is a very subjective term. It is very different water physics. It SHOULD be, overall, better in many ways sinve this game is focused more on the water directly.
That being said, Skylines still has impressive water compared to most city building titles, by far.
Ye
@CZcams Censorship Can Lick My Taint The comparison wasn't against actual water, compared to Skylines' water that goes a constant speed across the map regardless of obsticals or height.
Some realism would have to be sacrificed for the main focus of the game. Not to mention as RCE pointed out, realistic water physics cost ALOT and isn't calculated instantly.
The water physics in these games seems to substitute height for speed, and the water just gets higher instead of faster in narrow channels. It might be worth trying to make a valve that creates a standing wave to limit the water flow. So rather than using water speed to introduce turbulence to slow the water, use the water height to create a resonance to slow it instead. No idea what that valve would look like though.
sounds like the perfect problem for an engineer
The water physics in the game are mostly correct, the higher a wave the more water "flowing" through. Matt should try using dams on top of foundations or arches to 3-dimensionally constrain the water in a pipe, this should change the velocity of the water instead of the height if the game actually accounts for pressure.
because all these tests he's doing assume a closed tube, not an open-top channel. in an open-top channel, this is more or less how the physics do actually work in real life. fluid speed is only affected when the water has *nowhere else to go.* but in these tests, it *does* have somewhere else to go, *up.* so you don't get effects like the water flowing back causing it to slow down oncoming water or focusing the pressure of water to speed it up. in a closed tube, you get these effects. in an open space, you dont. these ideas, such as pressure increasing speed, also assume a continuous and equal water flow, which is *also* not the case here.
Like how you funnel the water to narrower walls you would add a roof to do the same.
Too compress the water from sides and height.
@@Templarfreak that makes sense and the water rising in narrow passages is even intuitive. I guess even though he has pointed it out multiple times, I forgot the valves technically require closed pipes. Still, my guess would be that the game physics wouldn't work that way even if there was a way to create the right conditions. Since neither this game or Skylines offers a good way to put a roof over the water anyway, I think trying to create resonance/a standing wave would be neat to see.
Thanks for keeping up the series because I am loving to see the beavers go
Well after watching all these tesla valve videos I know have to say something. Tesla valves are meant for a closed system not open top. But even with an open top you can make it work. You need a harsher bounce back in the returns and the loops should be a small diameter than the main channel so that the water passes through faster. And you need more iterations for it to properly work
"It's so dark"
Are you talking about the water, or the fact that you just drowned all your beavers?
Yes.
For the tesla valve to work you need more than just 2 places to turn around and slow down the water
And then angles are important too, they're not just arbitrary, they're designed for the flow rate to create a certain back pressure, which can be a pain to replicate in these games
if someone can get them to work in TB it would actually be useful, because then you can have resevoirs that automatically fill fast and empty slow, wich is great for water management.
I surprised you didn’t used the round tool for making the Tesla valve, for a smooth surface, as you only used the square tool.
You can click on the water sources and adjust how powerful they are. I was messing around with making them as weak as possible, to just make tiny oasis on the map. I think I had some set at .03, but you can go big too.
A better test might be if you had another outflow- see if you can stop the flow in the Tesla valve. I you either need a finite amount of water or a different direction for the water to go. Since you don't have a roof on the valve eventually the water just increases its level. You have 'up' relieving the pressure.
that paddy break transition was absolutely beautiful. I love your vids REC
3:20 That freaken transition was way too smooth
that transition from screencapture to web cam and back was amazing!
I would have loved to have seen water wheels placed at the beginning, then after each iteration of the valve to check and see if the power generation was reduced as the water goes through the valve.
Then the water wheels would slow down the flow, not the Tesla valve. There is stream gauge in the game to measure water flow without disturbing it.
I believe here there's a fundamental problem, which is that the village is at the bottom layer. In tsunamis, the coast is above sea level, so the water, when going to the place with less potential energy, aka the lowest point, goes back to the ocean, while in this case there's no place lower than the village, so it will get drown 100% of the times. You can make the tidal wave slower, true, but as long as there is no ditch where the water can go to "rest", it will always flood the city
i like this tesla valve series, testing cool engineering from the real world is good content
i just got timberborn this morning due to all the great videos im looking forward to putting architects in the shame wheel while not mistaking non engineers for architects
hope the hard mode continues to thrive the ever growing dry seasons
10:57 this might work better with a very tall vertical water storage with a set amount of water in it.
The strongest shape playing with beavers… you had me in the first half
I love the beaver videos and this makes it even cooler
Apart from what other are already mentioning i think one of the biggest problems here is that the water sources are constantly adding more water so even if you make the flow slower at the end it still gets really tall, you could make a reservoir and then divert the water source so you can have a set amount of water in each test rather than a constant flow
yeah, the biggest reason the tesla valve failed is because he made a tsunami sized river instead of a wave. with enough pressure and volume they also fail irl, but somehow he still doesn't undestand how and what he is making works
I like how grass grows in the barren earth, even before the tidal wave has actually reached it. It grows in anticipation of the watering it's about to receive.
Gotta love his editors. The screaming beaver add-in was simply priceless. They punctuate RCE's humor so beautifully.
A good editor is often what makes the difference between a good video and a *great* one.
I love the ragtime music! It definitely adds a lot
Honestly the transition from the screen to paddy and then back again was great
I love how much I learn in these videos. Thanks!
Yay yay yay! Have you considered making maps and linking them in the channel description?
Coming to your cinema this Christmas: Matt's search for the perfect water physics in a video game.
I have games where I've built 3 water wheels on one side of a wide river. They were pretty weak. Then I put levees a couple spaces upstream blocking most of the other side of the river, and the power went up by about triple. That confirms the water does move faster in a narrower channel.
Maybe the fact that this is test on land and not on water makes the water needs to "get to the point" and then flood on top ? Though seeing water on top of the wave flowing faster than underneath. Maybe making an island for the colony test and then send them a wave ? But is there something to consider about the constant flow comming from the sources ?
Always a pleasure to watch your videos
Wooo I was hoping you’d try this in timberborn
I had fun in today's stream RCE good job
This video reminds me of reading about the Vajont dam megatsunami in Italy.
Wow another fantastic video by Matt
Again, the fluid's speed only increases because the fluid is constrained to the shape of the cross section. This is only true in a closed, full pipe. In this scenario, like with the CS one, the water depth (height) is free to change, keeping the cross sectional area effectively constant and eliminating the "need" for a speed change.
I was looking for this / wanted this specific thing from you specifically
would the stream gauge's flow measuring give you an indication of the speed of the water?
Well, the gauge would tell you depth, but a water wheel does give you (very localized) water speed.
stream gauges will give you the water speed
The depth meter also has a flow gauge on it for your future science endeavors
You could have measure the variation in speed by using waterwheels at different points, and their energy output
Man keep it up!!!! Love your vids
That paddie transition was solid
"I don't feel the same love for the foxtails[...]" I think that was obvious when you misnamed them while staring at it written down haha
I was just thinking how cool this would be yesterday
The top gear/grand tour shorts in my feed had me unprepared and weak to the gravity genius bit. 🤣
Matt heard the phrase "Fight fire with fire" and decided to fight water with water
the water is only going to speed up if the valve is sealed Including the top. Otherwise you're only going to manipulate the wave height.
Very true
Streams and rivers in the real world speed up as they narrow, and they're not enclosed.
that's some smooth transition to let us see paddy
14:40 with you Matt the beavers are always wet, with all those strong shapes getting about.
True dedication to the concept. What a Chad!
I'd love to see you FewCandy & Biffa do a collab. Like the top gear trio, you could be set challenges, or given (the same) 'broken' cities to fix, or projects to build, and we get to see 3 different creators solve the same problem in their 3 different ways.
Alternatively you could take turns setting evil challenges for eachother.
Bottom line is, those of us that known all 3 of you, will love seeing the crossover, and for those that only know one or another of the channels get introduced to new creators. Good content for us, new subscribers for you.
The only downside I can foresee, is Candy & biff taking the challenges seriously, whilst you just make everything the strongest shape, but is that really a downside?
funny, I just watched that telsa valve episode a day or two ago and wondered how it would look/ work in timberborn
These videos must be getting some hella good views, even timberborn got a tsunami defender😝
Do love the videos tho💪🏻
Love that in order to stop the flood you just added more water....
Instant thumbs up whenever i see Paddy 😍
What I see from your setup is that you have an issue with the cross-sectional area that water is able to pass through. Since there is no solid limitation in that regard, the crest of the wave is rising making the total mass of water passing through that cross-sectional area the same (or slightly less due to the effects of gravity on the mass of water). Anyway, your search for ideal water physics in a video game is a noble one, but I can see the limitations in making it a video with good visuals... unless a mod can make a glass roof for the valve.
A glass roof block without limitations that it needs to be build on top of other blocks would greatly improve the possibilities for testing this properly.
I love these type of videos
your channel is a damn rabbit hole ... iam lost but happy!
I bet you could do some fun stuff with Breakwaters as well.
It doesn't matter how slow the water is, it's still going to come out at some point and overwhelm them.
I’m really invested in this Tesla valve ‘series’
Games simplify when possible for efficiency and design for gameplay. it looks like the water has 2 properties, height and spread. The water moves at a set speed towards any unblocked path in all direction. Spread lowers the highest height adjacent. And we know height slowly lowers as well (evaporation). Someone would need to confirm in code, but this is how I would program it. When the dry season is over you want the water to fill back in in a predictable way for players no matter the map. At least that would be the Engineer's way!
I suspect that too, but the speed of water wheels increases for narrower sections of a river without impacting the height. However, the logic for water speed and water spread might be different, which would explain why the game has contradictory behavior.
I love how Matt tries to figure out Water Physics when it's just code that's following the Breadth First (Flood Fill) Algorithm 😂
Someone has to make the perfect water physics game for you, I hope that happens soon
That last test was the strongest shape 🤣
Wow, whoever the editor is is pretty good
I believe the depth gauges show you the water current at that point... maybe worth putting some in along the channel, rather than trying to decipher the flow rate by graphical changes :)
great vid!
The sheer amount of water spawners left in during the test may have affected both of the tests . . . the standard flood & the matt valve. Think of that auto clicker sound generating water sources just adding to the push behind the boosh
The game From Dust had some good water physics and some sand physics too and tsunamis were part of the game too!
The last mission also turns the game into a sandbox
I don`t know why but the queens death is suspiciously silent apart from the news, it is a devastating event truly
if you put in those water level meter things they actually tell you how fast the flow is...
Yesss a new video!!!
I would actually love to see a spin off of this. There’s an actual physics sim program on UE4 that does a amazing job. Would love to see Matt fool around with it. It does fluid physics extremely well.
The terrain is all even unlike city skyline. Nothing pulls the water back to its origin. Also I thought the had nice think and long maps. We could fit the strongest shape on that.
I think the best way to test a Tesla valve would be to have one in reverse that you test at the same time as your regular attempt and see if that one has less resistance.
The Tesla valve requires a pressure differential, when it's full, the water will leak out of it if the pressure is not enough.
the problem is that the water has to go somewhere so it will always flood the town. put them on a 1 platform height and then you can test if you are changing the speeds.
Yes, I was thinking 'On what planet will adding water to water prevent it from eventually flowing down on the beavers?' Not Matt's most clearheaded experiment...
Sir, it is my opinion that when working with fluid mechanics, a gas and liquid are treated similarly, however; the difference is particle separation. This is also seen in the equations governing flow like you were refereeing to about converging and diverging ducts.
What really governs the effect of the tesla valve is the density of the fluid. Liquids are more dense than a gas. Take this in account along with the velocity of a particular volume, the gas particles act more like projectiles and have more time to make the trip following the main path and once curved and aimed back at the original direction will start to impact against the flow. With a liquid, the particles are so close, when the path diverges, the liquid will diverge proportionally and will then have a greater ability to resist any counter flow.
The efficiency/performance of the valve is related to the fluid density; which can be found by taking the limit of the molecular mass over a given volume from initial volume to some the end volume.
Also, you kept a large follow-on volume of water flowing behind the wave. A tsunami is a like a pulse of a volumetric flow. Follow what you did but create the first dams more forward. Let it play and fill. When full pause, build 2nd dam in between the first and the water source, delete the forward damn and hit play. Now you have a "🌊"
The issue is with the game physics. There are a lot of factor that are calculated in a large 3-D matrix for CAE/FEA when doing fluid flow analysis (either open or closed systems). These software's run for days at a time with clusters supporting the computations; I think that they have the physics they have is pretty nice. Maybe a software engineer will get tasked with working with a ME on improving the internal physics. Maybe they can leverage the VCPU and share the computing load.
The Tanuki drum sound effect on "wall" had me dead
The side loops should be narrow to force the water to move faster so that when it goes around the loop it does it faster than the water in the main channel, causing it to get looped around before the main channel gets to it and then crashes back onto the oncoming water. However, due to wonky game water physics, perhaps try the reverse, narrowing the central channel instead of the outer loops.
The Tesla Valve is best utilized when put in the way of a single and powerful force of fluid. It's best use is when replacing the one-way valves at the front end of a pulse-jet. This simple rocket engine uses repeat explosions in the combustion chamber to close the valves and force all the accelerant out the back of the engine, then new air naturally re-enters through the now open valves again. These rockets could propel explosives unmanned and unguided a few miles and explode its cargo on impact. The Tesla Valve was an improvement to the design as, most of the original design's limitations revolved around the one-way valve failing mid-flight. With no moving parts, the Tesla Valve corrected this.
The Tesla Valve can be used in many applications, but it was originally meant to resist repeated aerial explosions.
Probably needed to make two channels so you have a control version with no obstruction for comparison.
Why not build 3 types of valves at the same time side by side, then zoom out to see how that all react
Thanks to the patrons for making this video possible!