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Bizarre Bentley S2 Brakes | Tyrrell's Classic Workshop
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- čas přidán 17. 08. 2024
- You asked for technical content. In this episode, Iain takes us on a deep-dive into the "almost unique" braking system on the Bentley S2, explaining the unusual concept behind it. Join us underneath the car as Iain shows us the components used to bring this classic car to a stop. Stay tuned for an out-take at the end.
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
02:10 Warning - technical content
08:42 Front brakes
10:22 Rear brakes
11:25 Let's go under
14:47 Bleeding the brakes
16:39 Do they work? Let's find out
17:29 Outro and out-take
As a Mechanical Engineer, I do really love to hear your explanation in the minutest of detail Iain - there is no amount of nerdiness that is too nerdy. Please do not feel this is excess nerdy for your audience Iain. You have a unique audience here who loves this level of detail.
ꜱᴇɴᴅ ᴍᴇ ᴀ ᴅɪʀᴇᴄᴛ ᴍᴇꜱꜱᴀɢᴇ ɪ ɢᴏᴛ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ꜱᴘᴇᴄɪᴀʟ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜ⤴️⤴️⤴️
I'm not entirely certain that it's our obsession with mechanical minutiae, but rather your brilliant explanation, and perfect presentation of the subject that fascinates your viewers, Iian. Save for that one bit at the end!
" Minutiae" Thanks for improving my vocab Jeffrey!
I appreciate that Iain’s confidence in front of the camera has grown and allows us to see his “chippy” sense of humour. I really enjoy that about this channel.
That's been yet another fascinating and instructive video, thank you Iain for doing this! And don't worry about explaining "nerdy" stuff, as that's precisely the kind of content I crave, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone...
You are not alone lol.
Certainly not alone :)
I concur
Definitely not alone.
Absolutely not alone ☝️ We are getting more and more 🤓
Every Sunday Mr Tyrrell uploads it's a delightful one ❤️
If this explanation of brakes was 2 hours long, I would have still watched it and enjoyed every second.
Fantastic episode Iain. Pushing the rev limiter on the nerdometer is EXACTLY why we love this channel. There are plenty of CZcams channels devoted to driving exotic and interesting cars. The nerdiness is what sets TCW apart. That and those introductions to shy Italian giants of design and engineering. Wonderful stuff. Thank you!
A secondary benefit to your approach is having a video record of a lot of technical componentry that might otherwise be lost in the future.
What a super educational video. I do like how recognition is given to the team members, who have contributed to each of the projects discussed. 😊
I owned a Shadow II for 5 years, different car, different brakes, but I still get the shivers when I think back to the moment where I had a brake failure and nearly rammed into the back of another car. So this video reminded me of that. Smashing video anyway, thanks.
Please keep the nerdiness coming.
It's amazing that something so complicated, finely tuned and exposed to the elements ever worked for any length of time. I don't think I'd have been brave enough to drive it if I knew just how fragile the whole thing was!
Well that took me back . Was an apprentice at h.r. Owen in the 1970,s spent many happy times setting up these systems . Love these cars
Thank you, Iain for these videos. I'm so glad Harry talked you into doing them. Where else could we be able to see how these fascinating systems work!
Please keep making videos. The nerdier, the better.
Don’t ever be ashamed of the nerd factor. It’s absolutely fascinating! Thanks so much, Iain.
Glad you enjoyed it! We'll do more like this in the future.
Watching this type of content has definitely advanced my Nerdometer setting on a variety of topics. Keep it coming!
Thank you for this video. I restored one of these brake systems about 10 years ago in Cleveland. It was a sharp learning curve! Explaining to anyone who wasn't there had proven impossible. Thank you for the amazing work you do.
As a self-professed auto nerd, thank you for the insight.
Its an interesting point that the large Bentley weighs 2 1/4Tonnes because that is close to the weight of modern large cars particularly those with electric propulsion, so from that perspective its not heavy at all!
Drum brakes are much maligned but principally they are more mechanically efficient than disc brakes, disc brakes do score however where the brakes generate excessive heat from repeated use or heavy applications like down hills. Its no coincidence that Mercedes, Porsche and BMW have parking brakes operating on drums in addition to the four wheel discs because of their mechanical reliability for parking. Parking brakes operating on discs can lose adhesion when they cool down particularly after a 'hot' stop together with poor mechanical efficiencies in applying the parking brake effectively. My Skoda Superb has a warning in the handbook to park the car in gear on a slope to prevent inadvertent movement after the brakes cool down. This VAG system uses the worst of both worlds - a parking brake operating on the disc and a solenoid applying a less than possible clamping action.
One point that puzzles me on the S2 is the use of a large Jubilee clip around the friction servo that doesn't seem very Rolls Royce!
Thanks. Yes, the Jubilee clip is indeed factory original!
Fascinating. Usually I'm not into the nitty gritty all that much so deeply, however Tyrrell's Classic Workshop certainly always do venture my absorption of the engineering bits due to the captivating style of presentation. Excellent, and thank you so much again for this remarkable upload for learning about this particular aspect of a classic R R and Bentley.
Totally agree. Was sucked in and 18 mins flew by. RR, Bentley & Hispano Suiza - those boys could build a car.
Please keep the technical content coming - these are fascinating. I had no idea such a trapeze mechanism existed. Clearly not a particularly redundant system for such an important safety item!
What a complicated system. But cleverly done.
The description of "bizarre functionality" is the right adjective. And yes - for all the nerds in this world, your channel is just the thing !!!
It's the lucid and conversational manner that makes these videos so entertaining to watch.
As a mechanical engineer I love the nerd out videos. Keep them coming as no one else can do them this well.
Me too.
The weight, the load on the axle, shifts to the front regardless of the type of suspension. It even shifts on vehicles that lack all suspension. The dynamic center of gravity shifts on all vehicles.
I learnt about these brakes many years ago from John Bolster's book "The Upper Crust". I thought that the original H--S system employed a small drum brake as the servo motor, the shoes of which rotated constantly on a shaft from the gearbox while the drum, on a single hinged mounting, tried to rotate when the brakes were applied. This was prevented by a cable or shaft, which in checking that motion, added the resultant torque to the main braking mechanical system. It revolutionised the stopping ability of heavy cars and the servo motor brake shoes were said to never wear out. I understand that the pre-WW2 V12 Packards used a licensed version as well. Trust Rolls Royce to make something complex out of it! Like the nerdy little 8 year-old whose motto seemed to be "Never use a short word if a long one will do!"
Your CZcams videos cannot ever be too nerdy !
That's because the strength of CZcams is appealing to a niche (though not that small) audience, starved of nerdy details by the mainstream media outlets (worst being Top Gear) that cater to the average Joe who barely likes cars...
Thanks !
I was born in 1957 in a rural town of Lichtenburg in South Africa. I have seen some of these exotic cars being owned by the hoi poloi in town, not much of them except the one person, a reputable diamond dealer in town and the Member of Parliament who had a Jaguar 7 series, This however spins my interest to see the engineering of these vehicles from the era I was born and grew up in. Thanks for your program, much appreciated and enjoyable.
One thing one would never forget is getting out of a tight parking space on a cold engine with the choke on. If one does not know that the only brake one can use is the handbrake, one is into a lot of trouble and damage to one’s car and to others’.
Nerdy? No way, your explanation is brilliant. Please do not hesitate to do this kind of videos again in the future, thank you so much!
I remember that braking system from my Bentley S1- weird and wonderful. Mine only gave me problems on very wet days when the brakes became almost useless which was interesting and I think the issue was a wet disc on the servo unit- I just stopped using it on the really wet days. . Parking also was a challenge because the brakes could not operate properly at very low speeds and the S1 had no power steering. I remember being fazed by the left side wheel lug nuts as they had to be undone clockwise but the usual CCW on the other side. Interesting cars and I really miss mine. Mine also had flaking paint on the tops of the fenders in the depression. There are no MOT's in BC, Canada but I have yet to hear of an accident caused by a failure of some suspension or braking component. People usually have a good idea when their brakes don't work any more. Now I have an old V12 Jag with no MOT either but I keep an eye on things as all the enthusiasts do here. .
My dad went to England in the late 1970s, bought a 1960 Bentley S2, and shipped it home to the US. It had been originally purchased by the actress Vivien Leigh from Barclay's of London (he had a copy of the original title). He spent a number of years restoring it and I remember the brakes being a challenge (#$%@!!), but he persevered and brought it back (paint, interior wood, engine, leather, carpets,etc.) to excellent condition. He would occasionally put on a black "chauffeur's cap", let us sit in the back, and drive around the city. He had grown up during the Great Depression and it was his dream to own one, and he did!😅
Magnificent detailed analysis of a very complicated system. Say what you like about multi million £ super cars, but in my opinion you can and never will beat a grand old lady like this. An associate of mine was a chauffeur many many moons ago, and when the "boss" died left him a stunning Silver Cloud is his will. No idea what happened to him or the car, but for the next two years the love my friend gave to that car was breath-taking.
He must have been one of the few chauffeurs who turned up to work in a Rolls!!!
Thanks as always Iain for another entertaining video. Where would these grand old ladies be without you !!
Really loved this, the nerdy stuff is great. You took an absurd and complex mechanism and made it understandable. Looking forward to similar content, I’m here for these kinds of details and deep dives
In a spirit of true nerdiness, the servo brakes were introduced on the Silver Ghost in 1924.
I love the R Type and S series, but when manouevring you soon learn to keep your foot lightly on the pedal as you change direction, or it takes a few inches of no-brake panic before the servo comes in, so then you naturally press the pedal harder and screech to a halt when it does.
But once you learn the car there is nothing better.
The more complicated it is the more interesting it is ! Always good to see you Iain
Very rube-goldberg. Makes you appreciate what a leap forward (or should I say ‘full stop’) servo-assisted hydraulics coupled with disc brakes were.
Nerdy? Never! Informative, knowledgeable, entertaining, right down to the last detail. Your analysis of the braking system was fascinating. Another excellent video!
No where else can you find information like here. Love this channel
Fascinating - I drove an R Type Bentley for a while. No idea of the setup but the brakes were more of a disinclination to proceed than anything as coarse as stopping.
Great stuff Iain, again!
Takes me back to my early London motor trade days. The Iron Bridge garage, in Hanwell/Southall in 1967 and we had a '57 Hooper bodied Silver Wraith (with the big P100s) in the showroom.
I sold it (making me extremely popular with the management, albeit temporarily...) and had to get it out and around to the workshop for PDI etc. It was parked just inside the big sliding glass door and I had yet to open that. (I'm sure you know where this is going).
I got in, fired the old girl up, stuck her in 'D' and she leapt forward with my foot hard on the brake pedal and took the showroom door out in it's entirety. For the reasons you have so admirably explained above.
Luckily, the descending shards of glass appeared not to have damaged her, and the sales manager seemed completely torn between rage at the damage to the door and relief that this long-stay patient was at last leaving us.
At that time, Iron Bridge (then part of the Noel Bell group) had a group scheme for best salesman, and it was based on the number of points awarded to each car sold, judged on it's "sellability". The old Roller had been around for a day or two and had many many points awarded to her. As a consequence, and based on only one car, I got the award!
Great video, easy explanation of a what looks like a complicated for complicateds sake system, lots of places for it to seize up as well by the looks of it.
You’re definitely a lot more comfortable in front of the camera as well compared to the early videos.
Your love of the right cars is very much appreciated and in no way nerdy, I'm still a petrolhead thanks to yours and Harrys CZcams channels
Another brilliant video. I always knew there was something odd about the brakes on the S2/3 and thought it was 'urban legend' that they did not work at low speed. Thank you for explaining the details so well.
There shouldn't be any controversy saying Hispano Suizas were the equal of Rolls and Bentleys. They were at least their equals. Marc Birkigt was a genius of an innovative engineer in several fields and the craftsmanship and coachbuilding of the cars was world class.
Truly great, underappreciated cars.
As an engineer and car nut what a refreshing change … something genuinely interesting and informative…. Well done Ian !
David Ogilvy 1959. "At 60 Miles An Hour the Loudest Noise in the New Rolls-Royce Comes from the Electric Clock", (except when you jam on the brakes ...) People who feel diffident about driving a Rolls Royce can buy a Bentley (A Bentley is $300.00 less than a Rolls Royce) One of the most famous automobile ads of all time, a legend. That ad turbochargd RR sales in the US almost overnight.😄😄😄
And the blooper reel shows us, once again, how great you are with the people you work with.
Harry Potter fixing Frodo's brakes, that's the magic of Tyrrell's Classic Workshop.
As the new owner of a 63 Silver Cloud 3 this has prompted me to ask my garage to double check its brake set up! Great video. It helped me to understand what good braking performance should be and also explained why at low speed you are under the impression it might never stop…
Ian, another great video about the engineering intracasies of higher end automobiles. Also your test braking section did show very well the dive properties associated with the Bentley chassis design......very good.
That was totally brilliant thank you so much. I have heard that the system was 'different' but left in limbo by other commentators on how it was different. Quite a clever system really. I just love those old drawing showing all the layout and parts. More please if you feel like it.
Thank you, Mr. Tyrrell for this very interesting video! I do hope that you will make some more videos on what you are going to do with this 'Beautiful Beast'.
I can attest to how scary it can be when these brakes have not been carefully & properly adjusted, by someone who is _"in the know"_ !
The rear shoes do all the work in the first few meters of travel and, if the linkages are not precisely tuned ... BANG !
For years I wondered why discs were better than drums and couldn't get an answer that made sense. Thanks for that.
ꜱᴇɴᴅ ᴍᴇ ᴀ ᴅɪʀᴇᴄᴛ ᴍᴇꜱꜱᴀɢᴇ ɪ ɢᴏᴛ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ꜱᴘᴇᴄɪᴀʟ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜ⤴️⤴️⤴️
Great stuff, more of this please! Cheers
your not only a great PR person , but a Mecanic , that makes it more interesting , dare i say ( as you would say it in a very gentleman way ) love the chanel
Never seen such a braking system, thanks for the explanation.
It's crazy how complicated that system is, I would think as simple as possible to make it the safest 😁 thank you for the interesting video 👌
Absolutely fascinating! Yes, more of these kinds of videos please.
Mr. Tyrrell, you're a rare breed who adds tremendously to not only the car world but the world in general. A brilliant gentlemen who I'm terribly envious of as well. Top shelf channel and content!
The nerdy engineering stuff is the best. Great stuff and explanation Ian.
Great to see a heavy car like this dancing under brakes like a Citroen 2CV 🤣😅
I had to do 8 weeks of "industrial experience" as part of my engineering degree and was lucky to spend it working at the RR Crewe factory in the summer of 1969. 4 weeks in the engine repair shop, where I "helped" a fitter building reconditioned 6 cyl engines and 4 weeks in the apprentice school, where I learned how to use milling machines, lathes, etc. I also spent a couple of weeks updating the Silver Shadow show chassis to the latest spec. While I was there, we were visited by what I think was the 1929/1930 Speed 6 "Blue Train" Bentley. The owner had dinged the sump pan and was able to get a new old stock one from the spares dept.
Nerd-o-meter indeed! 😂
Fascinating video, beautifully explained both verbally and visually.
And it DID stop on a dime, who'd have thought a two ton plus behemoth could come to a halt so rapidly. Drum brakes at the front may fade on repeated applications on the Stelvio pass or the Nurburgring but in real world driving they're massively powerful. We used to have a Luton bodied Commer van with drums on the front and when a child ran out in front of us heading for the ice cream van, our Commer stopped in an instant.
I don’t think there is nothing nerdy about your videos, we watch your videos to be educated on how everything works thanks
I assume that having the proper tires is also critical for the braking system to operate correctly.
fabulous explanation of this system. I knew a little bit about but really enjoyed the details. Having driven an S2 on a tour of northern Scotland, I can attest it does work well if properly adjusted !
I own a 1964 S3 and have had the brake system overhauled a few years ago at considerable cost and I took some time to study the system with it's complexity. I find the Rolls mechanical braking system to be over complicated to a point where I would like to modernise it with front discs and another form of servo. I have seen a S3 with front disc brakes on youtube but it wasn't featured. Seen most of your videos and love them.
Great one Iain. I watched your previous video where you touched on this. Its all very « Heath Robinson » but clearly works when set up.
Ian nerdy bits are the best part it's the knowledge you have in your head Ian thank you for sharing it with all of us!
Loved this video - guess I must be a nerd 😂. Would love you to do a series following this vehicles journey back to life.
You can be a s 'nerdy" as you like. Many years ago I used to work in a workshop where we serviced many RR and Bentley products and the chap who had been a RR apprentice was the only one who understood the mechanical servo. None of the rest of us would be allowed anywhere near it. Like all these things setting up is a matter of practice and training. Your explanation has answered questions that have haunted me all this time. At 75 I suspect I will not be putting this new found knowledge into practice!!
It's interesting to learn about the evolutionary dead ends in engineering. Great ideas that were either too complex or impractical to dominate the general car market, but worked, sometimes better than the more popular, but easier to maintain and operate systems.
Ian, your videos are the Holy Grail of classic car garage work. Presentation, explanation, expert collegiate information, history and your attitude are exceptional. You’re blessed to have such wonderful associates there. I just wish you could service my humble mint Citroen BX 19 Gti 1987 model. She needs your expert attention.
Keep the ‘nerdiness’ coming Iain
Perfect expression Mr Tyrrell 🙏
That is 1of the most complex braking systems ever!
I believe they take 18” of wheel roll to start braking!
As you say It is petrifying!
Not to mention countless bumper kisses!
my grandfather totalled one of these near brand new ,falling asleep at 100mph on cruise control. the whole body ended up 100 yards from the chassis which probably saved his life. the chap from the bentley dealership said that he had never seen one do that before.
Loved this episode!!! Guess that slots me in as a "technical nerd" of the highest order. Thanks very much Iain. Nice blooper at the end!
This is more than just an explanation of how the braking system operates, this is a fascinating history lesson.
What lovely feedback - thank you
One comment: Anti dive front suspension does NOT reduce the weight transfer to the front wheels under braking as was stated, it only reduces the amount of vertical movement. The front end diving may give the impression of more braking power over the front wheels, but that is just an illusion.
Loving this. Thank you so much.
You are filling in the void that LJK Setright left wrt to well-articulated explanation of fascinating automobile technology of the past.
Wow, thank you!
Fair do's - the emergency stops at the end of the video were impressive! For a huge heavy old car, it does stop very well.
Thank you, I really enjoyed the explanation. I like seeing unusual auto parts and unconventional methods of building cars.
In 2006, I had an interesting discussion in auto repair class, and it involved a Rolls Royce. I was explaining what a Nissan GT-R was to someone who had never heard of one, non-gamers in the USA didn't know what one was. I said that I loved it so much, I didn't think I would feel worthy of the honor of repairing one. My teacher said "A customer brought in a Rolls Royce for repair and I did do it." I am certain he understood what I was thinking and feeling, even if I couldn't explain it well. He also said that in the repair shop, there was a bump that you would drive over in order to determine if you parked correctly on the vehicle lift. However, the suspension of the Rolls Royce was so effective, he couldn't feel it. He had to ask for someone to watch and see if he stopped the car in the correct location. I thought that was fascinating.
I'm not sure what Rolls Royce it was, and I know the repair did not involve brakes. It was leaking antifreeze, and the cause was determined to be the water pump. However, the honor of being selected to repair something so special must have felt incredible.
In the case of this Rolls Royce, it appears that the mechanism was good, but once someone was able to make a vacuum boosted master cylinder with variable proportioning valves, that special mechanism was no longer a benefit. It is interesting to see a mechanical part get replaced with a different mechanical part, rather than just see some computerized parts replace all mechanical parts.
To add to his comprehensive explanation of the braking system, I think it is worth mentioning that the front brakes are 2 trailing shoes and the rear are 1 trailing and 1 leading shoe. This allows more powerful braking on the rears as leading shoes have a self wrapping effect and help braking efficiency. This is designed to give balanced braking by the levers operating the master cylinders having more leverage when driving forward thereby compensating for the less efficient trailing shoes. When braking in reverse, the servo rotates in the opposite direction and operates the master cylinder levers from a less advantageous position, equalising braking efficiency.
Yours is the very best video on this Heath Robinson…I mean…Hispano-Suiza braking system I’ve EVER seen. What an excellent treatment on the subject! Mahalo!
So glad you posted it.
Now that's what I call a workshop video!
Thank you for going full nerd in this episode. I love learning the details of a mechanical system.
Loved this video. Guess an owner of a Roll Royce or Bentley of this era would not let a current RR/Bentley dealership, with their 'plug in and go' computer output, to decide what's to be done. And no tools in the workshop. Scary. Experienced this with my 1986 Ferrari. More of these please.
That was brilliant! I had a nice chuckle at “ I think the breaks are fairly important”.
Yes, Sir Tyrrell, REALLY. Remember what seems commonplace to you, to the point of not even thinking about it, even while performing the task? Is interesting to us gear heads. Especially when the majority of the cars you wrench on, we don’t hardly ever see over here. Thanks again for showing us.
Tks a lot, Iain ... this is indeed my favorite automotive channel
Very impressive and fascinating in several ways. I'm particularly impressed by Mr Tyrrell's personality as a distinguished, very sympathic British gentleman and as an authority on classic car knowledge.
Amazing how those machines worked and stayed alive till today.
Iain, thanks for the update great to see the Duchess moving and now stopping correctly, well worth the wait. 😊
At 14:22 Iain shows off his brake bleeder tool but alas it is not. He is holding a Bluepoint USA 1515 pry bar / aligner (jemmy) and it probably has a diamond shaped date stamp on it which is circa 1980 when a lot of these were made. Nerd award please 🙂 Ex R/R & B out........
Thank you for another very enlightening and explanatory video. I remember The Motor (or was it Autocar?) back in the day, commenting on the 'delay' before the brakes activated and how unsettling it was until you got used to it and made necessary allowances. Hardly surprising that there was a delay given the complexity of the system!
ꜱᴇɴᴅ ᴍᴇ ᴀ ᴅɪʀᴇᴄᴛ ᴍᴇꜱꜱᴀɢᴇ ɪ ɢᴏᴛ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ꜱᴘᴇᴄɪᴀʟ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜ⤴️⤴️⤴️
Another enthralling video, thanks Iain.
I never realised I needed to know about this! Brilliant!
ꜱᴇɴᴅ ᴍᴇ ᴀ ᴅɪʀᴇᴄᴛ ᴍᴇꜱꜱᴀɢᴇ ɪ ɢᴏᴛ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ꜱᴘᴇᴄɪᴀʟ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜ⤴️⤴️⤴️
What a majestic vehicle. Thanks for sharing.
Fantastic, keep these tech sessions coming!!
We love nerdy videos, Iain! We would also love to learn more about the Aston (Vantage?) in the background.