Were the Waffen-SS Really Germany’s Elite Fighters? - WW2 - OOTF 35
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- čas přidán 23. 04. 2024
- It's time for another thrilling installment of Out of the Foxholes, but what sort of questions does Indy answer today? Well, it's good stuff- about Allied security and logistics at the major conferences, about what the British navy was doing once the Atlantic and Mediterranean were secure, and about the skills (or lack thereof) of the soldiers of the Waffen SS. How can you live without knowing about such things? I suppose it's possible, but it would be a sad life indeed, so check it out!
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Hosted by: Indy Neidell
Director: Astrid Deinhard
Producers: Astrid Deinhard and Spartacus Olsson
Executive Producers: Astrid Deinhard, Indy Neidell, Spartacus Olsson
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Written by: Tom Aldis
Research by: Tom Aldis
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Mark Your Calendars! The Korean War by Indy Neidell is just two months away: www.youtube.com/@KoreanWarbyIndyNeidell
4:51 This reminds me: Has this channel covered the 1943 Cairo conference?
Bless, I need my Indy fix!
one of this S-S elite fighters was Hosted in Canadian Parlament Last Year. search on google : Yaroslav Hunka.
it is a very, very , interesting history, and an actual political scandal too.
Where is this week's video?
"The Korean War by Indy NeidelL"
You DO realize that when you make a documentary series about a past war, a new war happens on the same ground. Happened with Ukraine, will happen on Korean Peninsula.
Once all this is over, I’d love to see a round table with the whole crew where you talk about the things in the war that interested you the most. Battles, equipment, tactics that were developed, anything really.
Second the motion. I reckon it would have to be an hour or more, so 2-3 episodes. Roundtable where each of the principals is the main speaker in each episode. Plus one for the behind-the-scenes researchers.
I second this - this would be fascinating! Great idea!
My grandfather used to say, if a kamikaze hit a us carrier it was "firemen man your hoses!", if a British carrier was hit, it was "sweepers man your brooms". He was aboard a fletcher class destroyer so he had ring side seats so to speak.
It was a difference in philosophy.
An armored flight deck greatly increased the displacement of the British carriers and that meant, among other things a reduced complement of aircraft- which is the entire reason aircraft carriers exist: to throw as much airborne lead and explosives at the enemy as possible.
The U.S. Navy preferred to opt for a more offensive force than a more defensive one which cost them in damage recieved, but cost the enemy more by damage inflicted.
@@kenle2 It seems the whole British way of war is defensive. Leftover of the "Bite and Hold" tactics from WW1 perhaps. Have we seen an offensive British general in this war i wonder?
@@kenle2 Ultimately the Royal Navy concluded that having a massive airgroup was the best protection for a carrier. The armored carriers did receive critical damage throughout their career, and in the case of Illustrious and Formidable extensive repairs in the US. Illustrious flightdeck already got penetrated by JU-87's of Fliegerkorps X in 1941. Which should have been easy meat if Illustrious had carried more fighters. The decks did offer some protection, but when damaged necessitated extensive repairs. The one thing they did stop was avgas fire. No British carrier ever suffered its aviation fuel being set alight as happened to US and Japanese carriers. But again, protection had its price. The 5 carriers the BPF had at its height in July 1945 carried only as many aircraft as 2,5 US carriers. And it can be argued the RN got off light at Okinawa as the Japanese concentrated their efforts at the US carriers and invasion support fleet. Whereas the BPF operated separately attacking a small group of islands that had bases that could be used for kamikazes. Had they operated alongside TF-58 they might have been hit harder, and probably would have sustained more critical damage.
Maybe the difference in manpower between the two nations have something to do with it?
American use glass canon philosophy and british used armoured turtle philosophy. We know which won. Rest is history
I had a great uncle who fought in Italy. His opinion was that the S.S. units were the most fanatical, but not necessarily the best fighters. He said that the toughest soldiers he faced were from fallschirmjager and gebirgsjager divisions.
The last servicing crew member of the Arizona was laid to rest today. It makes remembering those who have gone before even more important. Good work Indy and crew.
I'm kinda surprised they waited 3 weeks to lay him to rest.
I wonder how long we have left until the very last veteran of the Second World War passes? 5 years? 10 at an absolute stretch? Here in Australia it is our version of remembrance day - ANZAC day - This is when all veterans march. VERY few veterans of WW2 are left - Generally just one or two from each unit. Even the Vietnam ranks have thinned significantly. This history will not be living for much longer - We must preserve it!
@@mdiciaccio87 It could be 10 more yrs, if not a little more. It would be amazing if we had any left when we get to the centennial of WWII and according to Pew's estimates, we just might.
If I had to guess, the last WWII vet might be someone from the Hitler Youth or a Japanese vet, if not someone else from Asia regardless of side. Asians typically live very long lives.
@@finchborat Not sure if this is still done. But any man who served on the Arizona at the time of the attack, has the option to have his ashes poured at the Arizona memorial.
@@finchboratif you were 17 in 1945 which would be the youngest joining in the last year of the war you’d be 96 years old today. There really isn’t many left . The youngest are atleast 94/95 years old
Unless they joined at 15 or 16 in the final year of the war but I haven’t found anyone who did that.
There was a guy who was 14 years old serving on the USS South Dakota in October 1942. But he died in 1992 at 62 years old.
It should be remembered that the Royal Navy carrier HMS Victorious served with the US Pacific Fleet from March until August 1943, a time when the US Pacific Fleet was down to one single Fleet Carrier (the Saratoga). It carried its own squadrons of FAA-crewed aircraft, albeit flying American Avengers and Wildcats. The carrier took part in covering the landings on Munda. It was during this deployment that joint operating procedures between British and American carriers were agreed. The British learned a lot from the Americans about handling large, heavy aircraft like the Avenger, while the Americans were impressed by the Royal Navy's methods for controlling fighters guarding the fleet guided by radar - lessons painfully learnt in the Mediterranean. To hide to the Germans that HMS Victorious was in the Pacific a merchant ship was fitted with a mocked-up flight deck and anchored in a Scottish loch while radio traffic to duplicate that generated by an aircraft carrier was transmitted from a hut onshore nearby.
Renamed USS Robin during that time
@@Alex-cw3rz For US Radio communications yes, in case the Japs had broken the US codes and were listening in. But the Ship kept the nameplate HMS Victorious and the crew compliment certainly kept calling her the Victorious. See the article "HMS Victorious in the Pacific" in Aeromilitaria magazine Spring 2010 edition.
@@Alex-cw3rz I think it would be more accurate to say that she was referred to as USS Robin in comms, she was always HMS Victorious, she was never renamed.
@johndell3642 thank you for the added information.
For some of 1944, USS Saratoga was part of the British Eastern Fleet for operations in the Indian Ocean. By that time Essex and Independence class carriers were coming into the Pacific, USS Enterprise was back, and the submarine threat (Saratoga's maneuverability was poor) was less in the Indian Ocean.
Being a German Historian for the IFZ in Munich and German Bundeswehr Veteran of the 23rd Gebirgsjägerbrigade with 2 Tours in Afghanistan and 1 in Kosovo and in general being from a German Family where everyone was a Soldier in Combat i can also share that during WW2 both my paternal and maternal Grandfathers including some Uncles from both Sides were Waffen-SS Soldiers reaching from the 1st Div LAH to the 6th Div "Nord" fighting alongside the Finns against their Soviet Aggressors.
Now i didn't watch the Video yet, but i decided to post my Opinion on this before seeing the Video as to not be influenced.
I met and interviewed at least over 100 Waffen-SS Veterans, even Croatian, French, Italian, Norwegian and any other inbetween.
None of them ever even saw themselves as being "Elite" or "better than others" but instead mostly pointed out that a lot of the Waffen-SS was considered to be "elite" after the War because of the few Divisions who had an insane Combat Experience on the Eastern Front, who then ended up on the Western Front fighting the Western Allies, which in their Opinion lead to so many Western Historians and War Vets describing the Waffen-SS as this Elite Force, when in Reality they just had some of the most Experience
Also that said, my Paternal Grandfather turns 105 years old this September and was a Waffen-SS Soldier since the Invasion of France (was with the 1st LAH, 6th Nord) and after the War he became very good Friends with a ton of his former Enemies and even lectured at US War Colleges in the 1960s and later.
He's still doing pretty good, he spends most of his Days taking care of his huge Garden in the Backyard and whenever he falls over, he has one of those "Buttons" you click as an old Person, which then contacts me and i go over and pick him up haha.
Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps
Yet, they did see themselves as "better than everyone else." They were the pureblood "Aryans," and Hitler's super soldiers. I am sure if you asked the same question in the 1940s the answer would be very different. And they were ALL war criminals.
Great story and great to see you're taking care of your grandpa!
Thank you for sharing. I have also heard similar to what you have said. All the best to your Opa. Greetings to you in Berchtesgaden. It is one of my most favourite places in the world.
Is there somewhere online i can read these interviews?
@@duceawj5009
I do have it in the Works together with Colleagues to have all of these Interviews online within this or latest early 2025 with english Subtitles as we all believe that Veteran Interviews online lack the Experiences of Soldiers who are not native english Speakers.
Regarding the Transcripts, thats a good idea, maybe i should check how i can get them online for People to read
Ascalon - The name given to the Lance used by St George to kill the Dragon. - What's not cool about that?
Too much pathos.
The name is not cool.
Dragons aren't real
@@YvonTripper Not anymore of course, they've all been slain.
It would be a better name for something offensive like a fighter or a rocket or something instead of a transport, but overall pretty cool.
My favorite (weird term for such a thing actually) Waffen SS trooper was Lauri Törni. Started as a trooper in the finnish army, went on to be a waffen SS man, get incarcerated as a war criminal by the finns for his SS service, escape prison. Ends up as a Green Beret in the US war in Vietnam..
And was recently buried in Arlington National Cemetery
Now that we are in the subject this channel should analyze other countries'"elite units" and depate were they truly the best.
Note: I did not mean comparing the elite units of armies to each others. I meant how well they performerd in their missions in comparison to their reputation.
would love to see a video dedicated to Brandenburgs, FssF, mountain divisions, commandos, etc.
@@leoarko9379a singel video? More like a series
This would be just an post-war content of this channel, same as their ww1 ones.
Idk I think that's an impossible judgement to make. There is no objective criteria, there really can't be unless you make everything too reductive and simplistic but when you do that you're not really doing justice to the history.
I think you can reasonably make judgement calls on the overall effectiveness or whatever of a unit or program alone, and you can make more specific inferences about facets of multiple units that might be similar (the Navy frogmen, the Italian Flottiglia Decima MAS - or the British LRDG and the Italian Auto-Sahara, which fought each other all the time) but I think each nation and each specialty unit had very specific context to their function and mission statement that it's impossible to rank them, and potentially dishonest to try.
It's an even worse version of tank nerds trying to rank the best tanks of the war when in reality the roles and functions of the different vehicles were totally different, so the metrics for success are different for each vehicle and Nation. At least with the tanks you do have concrete stats, but the goal of ranking them leads people to interpret the stats in weird and skewed ways that suit preordained narratives that obfuscate general understanding of the events and individuals.
I think with this kind of history, the best (and potentially only) way to appraise efficacy of a particular unit or operation is in a "lessons learned" kind of way.
I read a great article that was against the idea of forming elite units, as they tended to have massive casualties, took away the best troops from the regular units and often they didn't achieve so much in a major war. We're kind of seeing similar in Ukraine with airborne and Spetnaz being deployed as regular infantry, and again taking massive casualties. So maybe elite units only work in limited conflicts and irregular warfare?
There is a story that during one of the long flights that Churchill took. It was very cold and the flight chief lit the special kerosene heater, Churchill's blanket almost caught fire, so the chief had to turn it off and Churchill was made to endure the low temperatures for the duration of that flight.
That was probably the Liberator. It had a kerosene heater, unlike the Flying Fortress, but it was a fire hazard and so rarely used (the Liberator was marginally roomier and more comfortable for crews than the B-17).
So much content this month! Thanks for all the Amazing work you all do
A busy month for the war! Plenty more to come too. Thanks for watching.
@@WorldWarTwo is the saturday video postponed?
“Whoever is ethnic German depends on how many men we need.”
Pretty much. I have mentioned it before, but for example in Normandy just before D-Day a German NCO (Army in this case) was explaining to some soldiers that they needed to do something with a hammer. Total incomprehension, despite mime gestures from the NCO. Finally one said, "Ah. Mlotek!" Which is Polish for "hammer". (Note the similarity to "Molotov", who derived his Party name from the Russian word for "hammer".) The soldiers in the unit were Volksdeutsch officially but had a slim to nil grasp of German. There were tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of "Germans" like them.
Race theory in a nutshell. It's mostly about manufacturing excuses for doing whatever they wanted.
See also the definition of "white", which has drifted around to fit whatever the current in-group needed it to be.
I had a pretty incredible opportunity about a decade ago to speak with a local American WWII veteran who parachuted into France on D-Day (he still had a large chunk of his canopy as a souvenir.) Knowing their reputation, I asked him what his opinion of Waffen SS and Fallschirmjäger soldiers were. He responded along the lines that they were tough and his comrades had a certain respect for them, but they weren't scared of them. I'll never forget that he said that the only soldiers that he said that they *were* scared of was the Georgians who volunteered to fight with the Germans. I thought that was a very interesting answer that I didn't expect. I wish i had more opportunities to talk with him. Rest peacefully Chet.
Wow, You folks have been very busy !! Thank You for all the extra episodes !! I am glad to be a Time Ghost member...
Thank you for being apart of the TimeGhost Army.
Great video. Always wondered about the logistics of the big conferences.
We all know what we want after the WWII series come to end:
The 100 years war - week by week!
Thirty Years War, at a pinch?
Month by month ? More likely Year by year. I have heard what is actually being planned.
The 100 years war wasn't a single war. There was very long periods of no warfare. Your idea is as dumb ass they come.
Lol. You'd have whole years, basically whole decades where not much happened. You could probably do it with the 30 Years War though. I mean they weren't fighting the whole time but when you consider all the societal shake up going on at the time. I mean it isn't quite as dense as WW1 or WW2 but a lot of shit was going on.
I would say in addition to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS Panzer Divisions there were a few other very capable Waffen-SS divisions. Specifically, the 5th SS Panzer Division 'Wiking', the 9th SS Panzer Division 'Hohenstaufen', the 10th SS Panzer Division 'Frundsberg', and the 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division 'Nordland'. The 6th SS Gebirgs Division 'Nord' also gained quite a reputation amongst U.S. troops during Operation Nordwind for their effective small unit tactics, most notably in the battle for Herrlisheim.
According to the Heer commanders, even the better waffen ss units were overly reliant on fanaticism rather than professionalism and took much higher losses than necessary particularly in offensive operations
Elite fighters? Perhaps not uniformly, but their animal training program seems to have produced real results. Note the dog driving the equipment at 10:25 while seemingly mentally prepared and composed enough to inspect the camera and bystanders at its leisure.
Nice introduction video about answering these questions...thanks for sharing
Just found You and subscribed imideately.
Now I prepare myself for a binge watching weekend.
Do you know why I love this channel? Not only because of the information and education I get, but that terrific back and forth between Indy, Spartacus, and sometimes others. That whole Otto Skorzeny bit is a prime example.
I remember a quote by Patton, something like "They were special SOBs until they ran out of special SOBs."
Another great episode! Thanks!
On the Royal Navy in the Pacific threatre after the Battle of Santa's Cruz, the USA only had one serviceable fleet carrier, and therefore HMS Victorious was renamed USS Robin and transferred with her royal navy crew over to the USA. Also there is the huge what if scenario I believe it was late 1942 that if Admiral Summerville had not turned at the point he did, he would have met the Japanese fleet at night with 4 battleships and well would have destroyed mutiple Japanese carriers in a similar way to The Battle of Cape Matapan. The British fleet in the Indian ocean was large, it just had a much more important job of convoy duty, Japan only tried one attack in 1942 with 5 fleet carriers and did minor damage.
The Japanese were the masters on Night Fighting though?
@svenrio8521 The British had RADAR-assisted gunnery whilst the Japanese did not, it would have been a massacre for the Japanese fleet if they had clashed at night.
USS Wasp launched Spits to Malta for the second time in May 42 concurrent with Coral Sea where the USN lost one fleet carrier, one fleet destroyer and one fleet oiler plus another fleet carrier damaged.
Thanks for answering my question! 😁👍
Thanks for the great question Nick!
Nicely done video
Some interesting Questions Cheers
I very much enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
Thank you very much!
1943, before Manstein's counteroffensive an SS Corps was formed from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd SS divions which had been equipped as panzergrenadier divisions, but with a two battalion tank regiment and assaultgun battalion (panzergrenadier divisions normally had one tank or assaultgun equipped tank battalion and no added assaultgun battalion, but did have six panzergrenadier battalion instead of the four in a panzer division. One panzergrenadier battalion had half-tracks for transport, the other battalions being carried in trucks). This was the same organization as the army (Heer) "Greater Germany" (Gross Deutschland) panzergrenadier division (GD Pzgr division).
Of interest each of these divisions tank regiments included a 14 (on paper) Tiger I company. They all kept that Tiger company until withdrawn from Russia in roughly August-September 1943.
1st SS was reformed in 1944 in France as Ist SS Tank Corps with 12 SS Panzer Division. 1st SS Division, now a tank division but also still with six infantry battalions, lost its Tigers to form the I SS Panzer Corps SS 501st heavy tank battallion. 2nd SS lost its Tigers to the SS 502 heavy tank battalion under the II SS Panzer Corps of 9th SS and 10th SS tank divisions. 3rd SS kept its Tiger company for the rest of the war. GD division lost its Tiger company in its tank regiment but gained a full Tiger battalion with 45 Tiger I tanks. Also formed were 4th SS infantry division (1941), 5th SS Wiking tank division, 9 SS and 10SS armored divisions. 17SS panzergrenadier division, 12 SS panzer division. These were the best of the SS divisions. The Heer had many more.
Thank you. Excellent summary.
Otto Skorzeny looks like Fearless Leader in Rocky and Bullwinkle.
I think Fearless Leader, facial scar and all, was modeled on Otto Skorzeny!
@@waheiselBut Israel learned a lot from this dude! Mosad all the other of there military units kept him living just for that.As you now can see how Israel is putting that training to use!
Bruce Fraser given command of British Pacific Fleet. BPF was one of the largest assembly of British and Commonwealth warships under a single command in the service's long history. Eventually this formation was working alongside the USN in the Pacific. The array of naval power against Japan at this stage of WWII was mind boggling.
Your part on answering the Waffen SS question is spot on, too. It's only very specific regiments / divisions from early on in the war that were elite. Eventually this gets bled out, diffused. 1st SS Panzer Division lost experience with years of combat. In 1944 a portion of its leaders were siphoned off to act as a cadre for 12th SS "Hitlerjugend" to be formed around. That division was mostly formed of very young Hitler Youth members. Totally inexperienced but fanatical. The experienced members taken from 1st SS were needed to shore things up. This division would get mauled in Normandy.
Panzer Lehr was a unit formed in 1944 and based in France in preparation for the Allied invasion. This was a fantastic Heer / Army unit as it was made up of panzer school instructors. But as with 12th SS, after about 1.5 months of heavy fighting they were bled out. All that experience was gone and not training the future panzer crews of the army.
By that point the Reich didn't have the fuel to actually train new panzer crews.
@@recoil53 Earlier in the war German panzer crews had definitely been better-trained than Soviet ones, and they commented on Red Army tank drivers tending to pick predictable routes because they made driving easier, but by war's end it is questionable whether German superiority remained.
@@stevekaczynski3793 Early in the war, the training and tactical acumen of the Reich is unquestionably superior. At the end, they at least had the junior officers, but the new recruits were questionable.
Another set of 3 great OOTF Q&As
Hello Indy!! I Love Your Tie With The Cross!!😊
I guess you could say Churchill was going commando. :)
Very interesting video
Interesting information about the British Pacific fleet 🙂
No episode today?
I am wondering the same thing
Maybe a big one coming up about the battle of Berlin these coming days.
here it is!
czcams.com/video/f-ftuBbCjDI/video.html - TimeGhost Ambassador
So when does Europe war end by school book standards it ends when hitler played a deadly game Soviet roulette and lost.
John Winton's book, The Forgotten Fleet, does give a detailed account of the actions, trials and tribulations of the British Pacific Fleet. Its history is little covered in British WW2 histories, despite the fact that at war's end it was the biggest British Fleet in combat of the entire conflict.
George Lepre wrote an excellent book about the Handschar division twenty years ago.
I would say the Falschermjäger (paratroopers) were really Germany's elite fighters. If you look for example at the attack on Belgium and The Netherlands the Falmschermjäger were there before the Waffen-SS even arrived.
Completely agree with one small caveat; I would add the Gebirgsjäger as well.
They might have had a good training but as far is i know the German paratroopers did not do too well in combat.
@@PinoGietermaai It all depends on what you specify as too well. If it means winning lots of combats then the answer is no, if it means performing well under the circumstances they have been put in the answer is yes. Much like the British and Polish paratroopers at Arnhem. They did not win but performed well.
@@Bigfarmer8 You've got a point there.
@@Bigfarmer8 True, they more or less wiped out the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions at Arnhem and Oosterbeek.
My dad, who had been a base supply clerk in Esquimalt on civvie street and was also a member of the RCN reserve was activated and sent to Scotland in 1943 where he was a base supply clerk at the convoy resupply base HMCS Niobe on the Firth of Clyde.. After VE Day he spent some time on wrapping up the base before being shipped back to Halifax. He was to be moved to Esquimalt as the RCN redeployed it's ships to the Pacific. While he was on the train headed for Vancouver Japan surrendered and after he was de-mobilized in Vancouver. This included a half day lecture by the padre on how to adapt to civilian life. Dad summarized this as "When you ask your mother to pass the butter, don't describe it."
Shouout to Esquimalt
Thanks TG
Thanks for watching.
Thanks
Otto Skorzeny reminds me of the character Ludwig Von Siegfried on the Get Smart series
The armored decks were great if not seriously damaged, but, if seriously holed they were difficult to repair... the wood decks could be easily re-planked and back in service quickly.... also of concern was weight, a carrier could become top heavy with deck armor, American carriers had an "armored" hanger deck...lower "level" of weight...
Great question AND answer on Waffen-SS quality. I learned something new and interesting. Thank you.
Thank you for watching.
The US Navy’s commander Fleet Admiral King refused Royal Navy participation in the Pacific war. Admiral King was overruled by President Roosevelt. The British Pacific Fleet was huge. But American historians largely ignore it.
The BPF was actually a task force and without Lend Lease carrier aircraft (over 2/3) and escort carriers (almost all of them) it would have been of little use.
British historians largely ignore Lend Lease (avgas, 27,000 tanks, 30,000 aircraft and 38 escort carriers) and the USAAF in North Africa and India.
RN biggest problem initially in the Pacific was the lack of a Fleet Train to supply it and fuel it at sea. It was dependant on the US fleet bases for supplies and repairs. Frazer friendship with Nimitz was key.
@@nickdanger3802 what you said is factually untrue.
What you forget is the lease part of it. Britain payed for it. It makes much more sense to get planes etc. Made in the USA where it can't be bombed than in the UK. But I know you are someone who has an irrational hatred of the UK so will constantly l ie about.
@@jamesbriers696 that is not true, they had issues with it, but that was learning about it they did not rely on US bases as they had been getting to grips with these supply chains for years.
@@Alex-cw3rz "Over the whole period from March 1941 to September 1945, the balance in favour of the United States in the mutual aid books24 was in round terms about $21,000 millions. But by the settlement of 1945 Britain was required to pay no more than $650 millions, or £162 millions sterling."
page 547 British War Economy
Nick Macarious great question: I’ve often wondered how the world leaders got to the Tehran, Yalta , Potsdam conference!!!
Thank you for the lesson.
And thank you for watching.
Churchill’s trips to conferences did seem to cost the Actor Leslie Howard his life when his plane was shot down. Howard had been mistaken for a close Churchill aide. Maybe a show on this event would be enlightening?
Good overview! I have read pretty deeply of individual soldier accounts and you have nailed it. SS tended to be unusually well equipped, but training and later war recruit selection quality declined rapidly. Early in the war, the regimental size SS were pretty good. Frequently regular army officers who observed divisions indicated they often had good morale but took excessive casualties to achieve goals and siphoned off gear from existing veteran regular units.
Dr. Alexander Clarke and Armored Carriers do great deep dives and interviews of Illustrious and Indefatigable Class Carriers
That tie is kick-ass
It is isn't it!
1:45 shows HMS Ark Royal, the RN's one bespoke (non-conversion) fast fleet carrier WITHOUT an armoured flight deck.
My father served on HMS Newfoundland, a cruiser which was part of the British Pacific Fleet. Although they were somewhat welcomed, they were not allowed to have anything to do with sinking the last remnants of the Japanese fleet left in Japan. It was reserved for the U.S. Navy - understandable I guess considering Pearl Harbor. However they did use a Japanese cruiser for target practice after the war and sank that.😁
Thanks for the great Q and A video! BTW, there is at least one or two war films made in Italy about assassinating the leaders in Tehran or Cairo, fictional but fun!
Great video! Curious as to why you didn’t consider the 5th ss Wiking division to be another of the more consistent divisions?
9:52 Bermard from Military History Visulized has a video on this and has a similar conclusion: depends on the date
Thank you.
Thank you very much for watching!
HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repluse's loses were not due to not thinking air power was not important, it was that they didn't know the Japanese had a huge number of land based air assets that could attack shipping in the region. They were also technically still under air cover from Australian fighter aircraft stationed on land. But due to mutiple issues they never came in time. The tropical climate also messed up their fire control for the AA guns
It really was a shitfest through and through
It's both. They underestimated Japanese air power in the region, and overestimated the capabilities of warships on the open sea to defend themselves from air attack.
@@_ArsNova no that's not true as they did have air cover as I explained and it would have been adiquate enough and if the tropical climate didn't mess up their aa fire control, it is quite likely that at least one would have survived especially with the amazing dodging of torpedos that went on, like Repulse dodging 9 torpedoes. They wouldn't have had to shoot down that many just disrupt the attack runs.
Ive read about the tropical climate being tough on the british pom pom guns
I discovered that I had a distant cousin die at Singapore in 1941. The war hadn't even broken out but he was an RAF crewman and as the good aircraft had been stripped from there and sent west he ended up dying on a non combat mission before the Japanese even attacked
British Pacific Fleet
"When you come to consider the case made by Lord Winster in relation to the Fleet Air Arm you have got to take into account the immense assistance that the Fleet Air Arm got from the American programme."
"Then there is the Martlet. As to the output of these firms, they were persuaded to give up some aircraft which were going in other directions in order that we might be supplied 808
with essential aircraft for the Fleet Air Arm."
Hansard Fleet Air Arm HL Deb 27 January 1943
nice
My remarks are partly based on the (US) War Department's Handbook on German Military Forces and George Nafziger's German Order of Battle (WWII), Waffen SS and Other Units, and Panzers and Artillery. It seems apparent that there was a political intention to create elite units, e.g., 1st-3rd and 5th Waffen SS divisions, Luftwaffe Herman Göring panzer division, and even the Heer's Grossdeutschland division. These units were supposed to have additional units attached to the standard Heer organization to add firepower, e.g., the principal SS motorized divisions TOE had an assault gun battalion which it's Heer counterpart did not. The SS motorized divisions were upgraded to panzer grenadier divisions several months before the Heer divisions were upgraded to that TOE. So, while they may not have had their pick of the recruits, they seemed to have first pick on newer weapons. This approach seems to be similar to that of the Red Army guards units except that these were created from existing units that had notable battlefield success instead of political expediency. The only Wehrmacht units I've read about that seemed to me to be elite forces were the Luftwaffe's fallschirmjäger units from the earlier part of the war.
Grossdeutschland was originally an elite infantry regiment but was eventually turned into a division, and had tanks and armoured vehicles attached so it became a Panzer Grenadier unit.
So as a Division you can literally have the name of the boss and still get not prioritized when it comes to getting new stuff of equipment?
Yes, it's another example of how dysfunctional Germany during the war was because it was the exact kind of infighting Hitler fostered.
Should have called themselves Leibstandarte SS Logistics Guys
Lssah was one of the exceptions to be honest. Remember the hungarian offensive from early 1945?
Chapeau!
Ascalon is cool-especially to those familiar with the St. George and the Dragon story, but “Commando” just sounds cooler (because of the British commando raids in the dark days of the war).
That large Royal Navy force was Task Force 57. They get overshadowed a lot by the huge American Task Force 58, but as you described, Task Force 57 in and of itself, was vastly more powerful than the Kidobutai ever was at the beginning of the war, and played a significant role in taking the war to the Japanese shores.
Are you suggesting that Churchill went Commando? I'm not sure that I want to think about that. 😃
Now that's humor!
Think the myth of the SS being elite comes about due to fear not of their skills but of their brutality & fanaticism. The various war crimes attributed to them told any soldier facing them that it would be a mistake to underestimate or surrender to them.
They personified the adage: "Just because you're willing to die for a cause doesn't make it right."
One book has referred to them as "the alibi of a nation". On the Eastern Front at any rate, there was little difference between their behaviour and that of the German Army, and massacres imputed to the Waffen-SS were often committed by the Army or other bodies like the Order Police, but postwar the Waffen-SS were often convenient scapegoats, even if not innocent ones.
@stevekaczynski3793 correct.
As a fan of the French actor Alain Delon, I watched a Soviet film about the Tehran conference "Téhéran 43, nid d'espions" in which he starred.
The Waffen SS alongside the Luftwaffe's Fallschirmjager did a lot of the toil in 1944-45.
I've read some books about Dutch men joining the Waffen-SS just before or during the start of operation Barbarossa and from what i've learned, in the beginning stages the selection was very strict and the training was very, very tough. If i'm not mistaken the soldiers from the Wiking division, which consisted of all kind of westeren Europeans, performed quite well until the Germans lost the battle of Stalingrad.
Joe Bloggs watches Indy! Fabulous!
I read somewhere that the SS prewar was so picky they would reject a candidate for a cavity in a tooth. But by the end of the war if you had a pulse you could fight.
Himmler declared that up to 1936 the SS would not take anyone who even had a tooth filling, though it seems this restriction was waived after that, so presumably before the outbreak of WW2. Early in WW2 they were prepared to accept people classified as Volksdeutsch, at a time when the Heer and presumably other services would only accept Germans from the Reich. Thomas Haller Cooper, who had an English father and a German-born mother, was a British subject who found himself stranded in Germany at the outbreak of war, was accepted into the Waffen-SS as his mother had obtained a Volksdeutsch certificate for him. He was wounded on the Eastern Front and then transferred to the British Free Corps, in which he seems to have been one of the few true Nazi believers.
SPOILER
He was charged with treason post-war and sentenced to death, but it was commuted.
The elite were the Fallschirmjagers. Look at Monte Cassino and Normandy in the defense.
Molotav had the nickname " The Hammer" !
Depending on the division they could be elite like 1st SS or rubble like the 36th
Some of the higher-numbered divisions were based on transfers of veteran officers and NCOs from more elite divisions, which tended to reduce the quality of the original unit. The Hitler Jugend division, for example was, I believe, based around a cadre from the Leibstandarte.
@@stevekaczynski3793 And got gutted in Normandy.
Is there any episode of OOTF or regular episodes where the spanish blue division is mentioned? I haven't been able to find any, though I have seen it on the map.
Great vid
Thanks for watching.
i have read a lot of german war diaries. the truth is, ss unita had varying degrees of skill. especially towards the end of the war regular wehrmacht officers hated that the fanatical ss were getting the best weapons
The Ss did not get the best weapons as preference. This myth has been debunked time and time again.
IIRC, the Wehrmacht 20th Panzer and 90th Light divisions served Rommel rather well. In France, IIRC, the 11th Armored showed up to plug holes so often and effectively that Patton nicknamed them "Firemen".
Operation Longjump reminds me of the movie "Where Eagles Dare."
His Holy Smoke tie.
Good questions answered.
Thanks to the TimeGhost army for the great questions, and thanks for watching.
How about our update on what happened to Justinian's desk?
u rock
A conventional attack on Japan would have included British Commonwealth forces as well as the US, so it makes sense for the Royal Navy to make their way there.
I had a book 30 years ago that said that Americans and Japanese did not have armored flight decks because the extra fuel required would have been prohibitive in the vaster expanses of the Pacific. Has anyone else ever heard that?
Heavier decks mean more displacement, and thus more fuel consumption for less aircraft. So, you are probably correct
From what I have read, and maybe it was later in the war, but the SS divisions were often more aggressive or extreme to the point of experiencing heavier losses with less effectiveness.
Indy With Blunt Tie
Bruce Frasier was also the victor of the North Cape in 1943.
Fraser.
That line about Bosnian Muslims reminds me of something I read the other day. I'm reading Albert Speers, Inside the Third Reich for the first time and he mentions an interesting anecdote (among many, fascinating book). Apparently Hitler had never heard of the Battle of Tours and a few Arab Muslim delegates told him about the battle and how if the Muslims had won the whole world would today be Muslim (modern historians are mostly skeptical of the idea but it was a macro historical concept that was very popular for a long time), including Germany. After they had left Hitler started taking about how, of course, the superior genes of the Germanic people would have eventually triumphed over their conquerors and it would have eventually been Islamicized Germans and not Arabs who stood at the head of a Muslim Empire. Hitler concluded this historical speculation by remarking: "You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
Would have been a waste of a lot of good beer and sausage though...
I think that an interesting episode would be all of the events leading up to the surrended of Germany that could have led to a war between the West and Russia. Many issues have aready been pointed out where the trust between the two sides begins to lessen.
Operation Unthinkable
Interesting
At the beginning of the war the SS was entirely German by the end it was about 40%.The Waffen SS or the military branch of the SS, the divisions were recruited from all over Europe. This might seem strange to many but in European history such as the Napoleonic Wars the various nationalities fought under own formations but in the French army.
A 1970s history book of the war had a chapter on the Waffen-SS and it was the first place I learned how un-German much of it was. The article noted that in some respects it took the place of the French Foreign Legion as a sort of international military recruitment centre.
❤
I had asked the question about how did the leaders travel to conferences a while back (around Tehran I think), so thanks for answering and with more detail than I would have thought.
And thanks for watching!
We definitely owe the Brits for showing us how to land a Corsair on a carrier. Much love from across the pond!!!
If you ever wanted to know who were the Elite of Germany's Armed Forces during the War?
Then I would point you towards Winston Churchills description of the Luftwaffe Airborne Corps during the Battle of Crete.
He referred to them as the "..Flower of German manhood."
Why is Königsberg/Kaliningrad part of the sea on the map behind you?