Worth It? Radiant Silvergun Nintendo Switch Review | A Comparison to All Ports of the Shoot Em' Up.
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- čas přidán 13. 09. 2022
- Worth It? Radiant Silvergun Nintendo Switch Review | A Comparison to All Ports of the Shoot Em' Up. In a surprise announcement during the latest Nintendo Direction, Live Wire ended up dropping their new port of Radiant Silvergun! Silvergun, for newcomers to this channel, is one of my favorite shmups and a game I have discussed frequently. So the big question of today's video is, how does this new port perform? How much input lag does it have? What about accuracy and extra features? We are all aware that Radiant Silvergun is a masterpiece, a stone cold classic, but did Live Wire do a good job with this release, like they did in the past with Mushihimesma? That's a question I seek to answer as I not only go over the details of the Nintendo Switch version of the game, but also give a history of all the other ports on the Sega Saturn, Xbox 360, and Xbox one (as well as talk about unnofficial emulation on Mednafen).
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#shootemup, #radiantsilvergun, #nintendoswitch - Hry
I bought this having at one time owned the Saturn version, and honestly I don't perceive the lag in any way that makes it unplayable for me personally. I love it!
Well mate if you just played casually even if it was 9 you might not notice. For people that actually grind those games it's a huge difference.
But getting it just for the portable play is worth.
Hey everyone.
As of December 12th, Radiant Silvergun has gotten it's 2nd patch update (Rev.174). The background frame rate is a lot smoother now. Much much closer to it's Saturn version and the music and sound was also addressed.
I'm not good enough to be able to tell how the input lag is now. Maybe some of you RS players can see for yourselves though.
I have to give it up to Live Wire. They definitely want this game in great condition.
The input lag isn't even noticeable.
@@agreedboarart3188 This is what I was hoping to read. I'm not a very good or picky player, and I don't have access to an xbox or a Saturn. Finally getting a chance to play Radiant Silvergun on my home console is great. And if Live Wire and Treasure have been patching it to clean things up, I suppose it means they care a bit about it and their player base.
Why is this comment not pinned?
Just as a point of reference, if I'm remembering right, EspRaDe ported by M2 was also testing at 5 frames for me on Switch (and 4 on PS4 or slightly below). I will normally take 5 frames on a Switch game all day. But to your point, if the old X360 can do it faster with lower spec hardware, you have to figure it can be done on Switch. If they are willing to do more than just emulate and really have the budget at least. In terms of Ikaruga, it always ran fantastic just about anywhere inclduding Switch. My tests are always low to mid 3s. So if you're measuring at only 1 frame increments you'll see it as 4 frames, but at 240fps it's actually much closer to 3 (at least for me). Which makes me wonder if RSG could also be somewhere in the mid or lower 4s if measured at that frame rate. I haven't bought this on Switch to test it since I already have it on Saturn.
Are you measuring ikaruga's shot animation or movement animation? It's the movement that matters. For example ketsui on arcade you can see the bomb animation begin at 1 frame, but the movement animation doesn't budge till 2 frames. If you use shot animations for lag testing you are gong to get all these varied results where some games have a frame faster bomb or shot animation and some games actually have delayed shot or bomb animations (like futari). it's the movement where the lag is important. Also get the ps4 version of esp ra de :-) Also if you are measuring it at 240 fps I'm not sure how you are going to see a clean drop from 4 frames to 3 frames. Wouldn't it be like 3.389 frames or something like that ha so some rounding is occurring somewhere I assume? That's why I prefer just to record at 60 fps and average a ton of samples together to a clean number. I never did see a 3 framer though, but I could see the game being like 3.7 or something like that, which I would classify as 4 not 3. In the end though it's also a matter of scale, so if your tests would reflect that my method is a frame slower than your method, I would just translate our results by shifting my entire data set downward a frame. So if 5 frames is now 4 frames, then 4 frames is the new just threshold of what I would consider to be acceptable lag, since the numbers are a way of quantifying the input lag, if that makes sense. Because in the end, ikaruga is a frame faster than silvergun, and thunder force AC (was gonna throw the vid but ran low on time) is a frame faster than ikaruga.
@@TheElectricUnderground It depends on the game. I try to test both and if there’s a discrepancy then I’ll stick with movement. But the shot is much more reliable in terms of consistency for me. Capturing movement is a toss up depending on the game and if there’s an animation linked to it or not. Without an animation you could easily be off or adding a frame or more by not visually recognizing a subtle movement starting to happen. A shot is very obvious to recognize. But you’re right the game matters. When I was testing knights of the round, I had to use jump for testing as the attack animation had a huge delay added on purpose within the game. But with ikaruga I personally didn’t find a difference measuring at 240fps the shot, polarity switch, and movement were all under 4 frames. Polarity switch has an obvious animation making it easy to test too. At 240fps you can catch a slight blurring or beginning of a shot animation which is useful. There’s a free app for iPhone that records at 240 so it’s been a godsend to view it that way.
@@ShmupJunkie interesting, I can take a 2nd look at ikaruga and so forth but what was the result in your frame counting? Was it like right on top of 3 frames or was it 3.5 or how did that flesh out? So you got 5 frames in rade, I ll fire my setup up tonight and double check that against silvergun. So that will show what I m seeing as 5 frames and what you are seeing as 5 frames. Also you may want to test ikaruga again because it got an update patch a bit ago, who know the patch could have added lag. Also there is a question of monitor lag. I believe the way you do it is by zero ing out your monitor lag essentially, rather than displaying it on a crt with a little converter. I ask because I m not totally sold on the idea of zeroing out the monitor because that makes certain realities disappear. Like on a PC with a VGA output you can literally plug it in to a crt and get 1 frame. But on a switch, because you have to convert it s HDMI in one way or another, there s some built in lag there that is in escapable, either by traditional monitor lag or whatever few ms a converter may Introduce. It s not much, but if it s like ikaruga is flavoring somewhere around 3.3 frames, that might bump it up to closer to 4. But that s a reality of the switch that you can t zero out essentially. It would be interesting to see if this plays much of a factor or not, I d assume only in these edge cases but I ll test rade and see
@@TheElectricUnderground Correct it’s all relative. Either way one port is faster than another. I looked back at my old data and Im only seeing the shot recorded that I kept. Was a long time ago. But it’s all in the very low 3 range once I subtract my display so I’m measuring game only with Joycon. I remember it being blazing fast. That’s with a margin of error 1/4 frame at 240fps. The higher fps you record the higher your margin of error, since you can’t see the movement or animation until the next frame. So anything that happens past 3 frames, say 3.15, a 60fps recording won’t catch it until frame 4 visually etc. I have to actually go back and fix my Joycon wiring soon as a conductor snapped during my last testing. I’ve been avoiding it I hate working on the Joycon lol
@@ShmupJunkie yeah the joycon is hell on earth to test with, I did tests using my joycon but obviously I couldn't get it to my crt monitor since I used a split pad, that s how I ended up with that vid about the lag paradox where your either getting an extra frame from the dock or you are getting an extra frame from the handheld display, no escape. Hang tight though cuz tonight I m gonna check on rade to compare
As a shoot em up lover I have been waiting years to play Radiant Silvergun. I'm happy I'm finally getting to play on Switch
**Update** The game now runs at 4.5 frames of input lag :-D. Which means that sometimes you can get 4 frames of lag, but it still tends to be 5 frames a lot of the time. When and where this improvement occurred I am not sure, but I found out about it while using the game as a reference input lag reading for the Switch version of Batsugun.
Spectacularly detailed responsive comment!
Subsccribed
shame to see this port miss the mark, maybe it was rushed so it could release with the nintendo direct. it feels decent to play but the screen tearing and bad music looping are major distractions. live wire has a history of being responsive and patching their releases so at least there's hope of improvement.
This is the biggest problem these days. Ports used to be recompiled for the new hardware, nowadays companies use emulation to save time and money. And of course with emulation comes input lag. Consoles like the switch just aren’t powerful enough to use the features that lower input lag in emulation.
exactly nick and we see this with silvergun! so the 360 version is recompiled and then this is an emulation of the 360 version in some manner I assume ha.
I just want it to come for PC, might improve the input lag too. I'm very eager to see it on Steam. Also, RSG's programming should be hellish to adjust considering it's a Saturn game. Probably explains Ikaruga's performance being better.
I would accept PC or PS4 but they insist on teasing me like this.
I absolutely believe bringing it to pc will improve the input lag :-) the switch has a baked in frame of lag in pretty much all ports to begin with, and i could see with turning off vsync getting the pc port even lower.
Currently emulating it and oh boy I would sell my organs to play this classic with a decent responsiveness
I'm surprised you didn't even mention the atrocious audio quality of this port, where it sounds like the music and sound effects were being sampled from a youtube video underwater. As well as the music fading out and looping???
There are some egregious gameplay bugs as well, like not being able to lock on to the 3B boss side pods for some bizarre reason.
Well, at least the good news is that Live Wire just stated that they'll work on a patch to address the sound issues.
If there are other issues that you mention, hopefully this news will encourage you to spread the word (try recording it as well!). I'm told that Live Wire is usually good about addressing feedback in the post launch phase of their releases.
Ha I actually did notice the audio looping, but I thought for a moment ... wait does that happen in the original game because of redbook audio or some crap ha. Audio stuff will sneak by me cuz I usually don't notice that type of thing too much. This is probably why they pulled it from the store, not input lag. Though that would be kinda cool if they pulled it to work on the lag.
Thank you for the informative review! 5 frames of lag isn't a deal breaker for me so I'll definitely be picking it up. I have the game on Saturn as well, but sadly more than 90% of my gaming has to be done portably due to not having much time at home so having it on the go will bring it from being able to play the game once a month (if I'm lucky) to pretty much every day.
That is a big selling point of this version for sure. If you need to play the game portable, this is the port to go with.
I appreciate how in-depth you are with your reviews. I got into shmups through Touhou 7 and 11, and eventually tried Mushihime and Ikaruga and fell in love. Keep up the great work!
I m glad you enjoy that aspect of the channel, i do try to take the games seriously:-)
When you said … 5 frames… I looked at my Saturn with a wry knowing appreciative grin and nod.
Appreciate ya !
Your in depth analysis of the game and its ports is incredible. Great job
Thanks so much James!!
Well, actually, Treasure announced on Twitter earlier this year that they are working on a (new?) game for the 30th anniversary of the studio, a game people asked them about. But what is this "new" game? Is it really a new title that is yet to be announced or was Treasure actually teasing this Radiant Silvergun port done by Livewire?!?! What do you think, Mark?
It's interesting you went into just the input lag and not the extremely glaring audio issues. There are also screen positioning bugs as well as the A+B shot not working on the Stage 3B boss.
Yeah that stuff is stuff that will likely get patched (that's probably what they are up to right now) whereas with input lag devs really struggle to patch it and often you get what you get sadly. I'm very certain all these visual and sound glitches will get patched though, devs are good about that.
"...so now, the moment of truth..." *Insert pizza advert* haha what a cliff hanger. Well played!
Oh that is all youtube's fault ha, I don't ever manually place ads (the idea offends me). Probably would increase my add rev, but not my thang.
@@TheElectricUnderground whoa serious? That's straight out of the Skynet playbook.
To those saying 5 frames won’t matter, I purchased Galactic Attack for the Saturn (which I believe has 3 frames lag natively). My setup has both a CRT and a 1080p LCD TV wall-mounted with a rotating mount for vert play and a component switch to play on either/both displays. Using 240p Test Suite I can confirm that the LCD adds an additional 49ms (or 3 frames) of lag, for a total of 6.
Played for a week on the LCD happily enjoying large screen Tate goodness, but simply could NOT get past level 5.
One day, purely out of laziness in not wanting to rotate the LCD, I decide to try it on the CRT.
I get to the last level on my FIRST try. VERY NEXT try, I beat the game.
I’m not sure where the “cutoff” in acceptability should be, but 6 is game-ruining. I’d like to know what 4 feels like as I THINK it might be serviceable. But I suspect 5 and up would sap the enjoyment from the more intense titles.
I’m also looking into seeing if something like Retrotink 5x would reduce frames by removing the inefficient scaling happening internally by the TV (tho even if it helps, I doubt it would eliminate ALL 3 frames added by the LCD).
TL;DR - 5-6 frames WILL affect your play. I have the receipts.
It definitely matters but I believe a lot of people are falling for the hype or trying to justify their purchase instead of thinking rationally, so it's a waste of time to try and convince them.
5 frames of lag is not good. Like Mark says, it's not catastrophic but quite disappointing that games are getting worse as the years go by. They should be getting better! And the reason they're getting worse is because so many people seem to think these shoddy ports are good enough...
Exactly right my brother, those extra 3 frames of lag are nasty. If your gonna play rayforce, you gotta use shmuparch or mister or something like that (or the OG saturn)
@@TheElectricUnderground I am using an actual Saturn via Retrotink SCART to Component converter to CRT. So the only lag is whatever’s baked into the Saturn hardware. At 3 frames it feels like my thoughts are directly connected to the screen on the CRT. On the LCD, you THINK you don’t notice anything, but my inability to pass lvl 5 on the LCD was an eye-opener.
I'll wait on the PC version for now. If it ever comes.
Also, I appreciate the spreadsheet you have on your website, detailing the input lag for the various games you've tested. I've used it for deciding on purchases several times.
That's awesome my dude! Yeah I'm trying to keep it up to date with games that I test.
Right now the best hope that we have for a PC port is to get it on Switch to boost the sales numbers...
Can't say I agree with that logic but it's the best we have unfortunately.
Just announced 😮
@@ParanoiaGentlman OMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!
I really appreciate these videos on how responsive the ports are, even though I'm probably not able to notice the difference unless it's substantial. In any case I've just purchased this as I never had a non-emulated way to play this before and I want to support developers / publishers that are prepared to bring classic games to modern platforms. If there is a PC version in future, I'll probably end up getting that too.
Glad you found the information useful!!
Hi! I just wanted to say I really enjoy your game breakdowns. You definitely swim upstream and I really appreciate your content.
I’m just stoked beyond belief to have this on switch as it was my number one most wanted shmup and I don’t have a saturn/xbox/or gaming pc.
Now all I can ask for is an M2 port of Batsugun! 👍
Hey thank so much Gabriel!!! Yeah when are M2 gonna finish their damn toaplan ports, at this rate we ll get batsugun in 2024
Really hoping it's up the the same standards as Mushihimesama. I personally don't seem to notice 5 frames or less lag and expect it to be slightly higher on the switch. I did notice the lag on the psikyo ports though.
I've never played Radiant silvergun on any system.
one reason why lag is more sneaky in silvergun is because the movement is slower, so you might not pick up on it until you are under pressure, but it's there.
If input lag (and cost of saturn and copy of the game) is the only real thing stopping you from playing Silvergun at all then I would absolutely go ahead and pick up any version you can get hold of. It really holds up almost 25 years later. They threw just about every possible concept into the title and it really was mind-blowing on launch.
@@eternalmonsoon8103 Yeah, I picked it up in the end. I'm by no means a high level player and can live with 5 frames.
I didn't know there was so many weapons. May have to map them differently on the arcade stick.
5 frames is not ideal, in fact I was expecting even 7, but it's far from disastrous, it seems that it's the maximum they can get from saturn games on modern platforms, and considered that the switch is a much more accessible platform than xbox one and 360, I would go with this version, plus live wire tends to give decent support for their games and fix bugs that the community finds out
and it seems they have already released online leaderboards, something that took them decades to do in other releases
Yeah 5 is passable, just disappointing. I d be really impressed if they patched the input lag to be lower
Livewire has made improvements to other Switch ports thus far, so I'm hopeful they'll hear enough feedback about the lag that they'll go back to the lab and see if they can at least bring that down a frame. I doubt we'll get 3 frames, because if the original Saturn version was 3 frames, it's a good bet the original ST-V version was as well. So unless they work some runahead magic, or something like that, 3 frames is the absolute best we could hope for, with 4 frames probably being a good target. For me, 5 frames would probably still be good, because I'm less sensitive to it, though I did notice it pretty obviously with the Switch Psikyo ports, and with Lords of Thunder on the TurboGrafx Mini.
I could see 3 frames being possible because I don't believe the 360 version is using the Saturn code or anything, I think it s a brand new set of code, correct? so they might be able to go in there and tweak it to run more effectively, but who knows ha
@@TheElectricUnderground I guess we'll have to wait and see 👀
This is sick. Fantastic version comparison as well. All treasure games need switch/PS4 ports of this quality. Looking forward to getting the physical.
yeah that will be cool to see!
I hope for a PC port.
Me too!!!
same
The Switch version differs from the 360 port in that it affords many more continues to be earned in story mode. Also the Switch version has some sound FX completely missing, and I find that odd and annoying.
haven't caught up in a while due to other games but hope you're doing well Mark! Great vids as usual and very through.
Hello my friend! Yes I'm doing well and still talking about shmups ha, defying the odds at this point XD
Bought it to practice while portable but here's hoping the Saturn core gets released one day for MiSTer as that will be the easiest way to play low latency version of this. I can still play it on Saturn but for upscaling MiSTer just makes things much easier
best of both worlds right there :-)
I don’t get how input lag is such an issue in this day and age. It should be faster than ever! Btw, do you know how much do Galactic Attack Remastered on the xbox and psx has of input lag, compared with the Saturn? It seems like it has a lot.
It does! 6 frames, I reviewed it a while back :-) czcams.com/video/s5wMqBmZAk8/video.html
@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks man! I used to play it a lot on the Sega Saturn, now i'm Top10 in the world on Xbox, but it feels "slow", which is a shame. Do you by any chance had the opportunity to measure the input lag on the Saturn version?
While the 5 frames of input lag borders on the "passable but not ideal" for me, i really don't have any other choices to play this, i don't own a sega saturn, i've never owned a xbox 360, never had an xbox one, and i tried emulating this and i got slowdown so i guess i'll have to put up with the five frames, which isn't that bad but i do hope they can at least patch that 1 frame out, underwhelming but considering my options, "good enough".
I... guess my comment wasn't liked by CZcams... so I'll state it again without links.
Live Wire, the devs handling this port of Radiant Silvergun, have stated that the reason it was delisted is because of an ESRB rating anomaly. They're hoping the game will go back up on Sept. 20 this month.
Also, they state that they're aware of sound issues. They'll be working on a patch in the meantime.
I am not going to rush into buying this game yet because I haven't still decided if I would like all the weapon switching and skinny corridors, but I am really hoping that LiveWire can make changes to better this port. Not just the reported bugs like invisible walls and bad audio but also the input lag that you mentioned. Based on the reactions of the shmup community, RSG is a big name so LiveWire really needs to make up for any shortcomings, especially because they've had a good reputation on porting some XBOX360 Cave shmups to the Switch.
Absolutely, this is a big fish, it's best not to mess it up.
Mark, how long does it typically take to test for input lag? Basically how many minutes does it typically take to set up your test format and to analyze the results? Also, I guess if Switch version is 5 frames then if this comes to the PS4 it'll likely be 4 frames which is perfectly fine with me.
depends on the game a bit funny enough, silvergun is a pain in the butt because you have to take a bunch of time to get samples since the game is trying to kill you every second ha. Whereas there are games with really chill opening stages where you can easily collect tons of input samples without issue. I'd say around 30 min to actually grab the footage and then probably around an hour to put all the footage together and look through it carefully and crunch the numbers. Usually it's really clear, but I like to double check tons of different samples to be sure.
have u tried the ps4 port method? i wonder how many frames an unofficially ported emulator adds, personally i think it feels tight, but i havent actually tested it
It be nice if the game got the OG R-type treatment, where you could switch from the janky, jagged, low-polly models (or sprites) to revamped, pristine HD visuals, on the fly. Someone could potentially build a restoration business around classic shmups :D
That would be really cool!
Was hoping you‘d cover this. Thanks. I’m used to emulation which is 5 frames so I’ll take it. Been wanting to own this badly for years and never had a Xbox. It’s a shame though.
Yeah it s a bummer we couldn't get at least 4 frames like ikaruga
Is the input lag from playing this on Xbox one the same if you played it on series x/s?
Hi Mark, I have an NVidia Shield & was wondering if you rate Yabause as a proficient SEGA Saturn emulator for it?
It's been a while but I remember Yabause being a hot mess when I used it ha. Mednafen is the best I've used so far. But it's been a while since i've tried yabause so it could have improved since then.
OK thanks! 👍
How come the original STV version running on MAME wasn't tested for lag?
Oh that is a great point! It would be interesting to see how that version performs, but like wario said below it's kind of an incomplete version in a lot of players minds. Still a cool idea though.
I bought it even though I already have it on the Saturn. The convenience of playing it handheld makes up for the performance. How much does the switch lcd screen add? Is it one more frame?
Yep if you need to play the game portable, this is the way to go. As far as what your handheld lag will look it, it will be 5 frames. This is because there's this funny lag paradox (here's my vid on it czcams.com/video/OyaUjiBNLok/video.html) where no matter what you do you will get hit with a penalty frame of lag. On handheld it's the laggy display, but on dock the dock itself adds a frame of lag buffering the vid or whatever it does, so it will be 5 frames. Likely most people with have more lag on the dock though because then their display lag is also included.
Thorough breakdown. The more positive take is that at 5 frames it's still within your range of acceptability, and I'm pretty sure far more players have Nintendo Switches than Xbox Ones or non-red ringed 360s at this point. I have the Saturn version, but honestly I'm always worried about scratching it. So if/when Limited Run or somebody picks it up for physical release, I'll probably jump in there. I'm thinking this is a memorization-heavy enough game that 2 frames won't break it (though I've never finished it, owing in large part to the aforementioned scratch fears).
Yeah it's not a no go, but more like a meh, shame it wasn't just a tad more responsive so I can give it a solid recommend. Also one thing you should do my friend is jailbreak your saturn (super easy) and play burned copies of your games. Yeah a real deal silvergun is too expensive to play these days, it needs to stay safe in its case ha.
Just wondering why you think you’d scratch it, is your Saturn’s disc drive getting cranky in its old age? Perhaps you’re afraid of dropping it or bumping it when inserting it? If there’s no actual issue with the disc drive I say go for it, it feels great playing an original system. That’s how I play all my games ( nothing against emulation or jailbreaking, mind you) even the pricier ones like Rayearth and Shienryu. Do what makes you happy, obviously, but I got my Saturn back in ’98 and even games I got second hand with a few scratches still play fine in it. You’re lucky to have a physical disc of Silvergun, be careful with it but enjoy it the way it was meant to be enjoyed man! Cheers!
Just burn the disc imo if your Saturn is otherwise ready to use
@@TheElectricUnderground I have a black 4 in 1 cart, so no need for the full jailbreak. Yeah, you're totally right, a backup is the smart and perfectly legitimate play here. I'm just so out of the loop with ROMs I'm not even sure where to look, so it doesn't occur to me.
@@winterwraith1934 Just worried I'd snag it on the drive spindle while putting it in or taking it out or something. But you're right, since I own a legit copy I should just burn a backup. Same with my copy of Shienryu, that's one worth protecting :)
Thanks for your video, I appreciate it. Your lag reveal had me extremely tense but also laughing pretty hard. The lag on the switch has been a real killer, but I'm still enjoying collecting as many shmups as possible for it, and your reviews and info is essential.
No problem my dude, that is exactly how I felt when I first started to review the footage ha, fingers were crossed to end in dissapointment. Maybe with them taking it down they'll patch it to be more responsive though? maybe.
Drum rolling, anxiety building.
Mark sure is making you sweat, lag no lag no lag.
Well thats a bit of a let down. As its been pulled from the US eshop and has other issues (audio looping, screen tearing and frame skipping), could the lag, A. Be fixed in an update or B. Would the current issues affect the reading of the input lag in any wayl?
So.... I bought it anyway, lets see if they patch it. Feels not to bad using the Saturn BT controller. 👍
Early on in 2022 I gave up trying to play Silvergun on emulation and invested in a Saturn & Fenrir. Best purchase imo, the game looks stunning on a Sony CRT.
Also like to mention the Saturn D-Pad, which I feel is so much nicer to use over the modern controllers.
3 frames here on retroarch. Mac m1 or a r5 3600 desktop both the same. Beetle Saturn core.
Oh my god, that's really cool. So there has a been a lot of cool updates to retroarch in the past year or two, so this could be the way to go. Back when I was focusing on it Mednafen still had an edge but I can absolutely see arch catching up.
@@TheElectricUnderground Saturn emulation has come on a lot last few years. I couldn’t swear to accurate slow down but it plays well enough with a fast gaming monitor for me to ditch my crt.
Is It true the switch oled has one less frame of lag mark, on handheld? , If so That would make It 4 frames like xbox360, wich in my case wouldnt matter cause i suck, but still cool.
I don't think so because I m measuring this bad boy off a crt monitor, which is lagless and certainly more responsive than oled
If I were to build an arcade stick specifically for the switch, what internals would you put in it? I'm currently using MC Cthulhu => SSB GC Controller Converter => Switch.
brooks universal board is the winner :-)
I was hoping for a PS4/5 port but for those that only have a switch I still believe it’s worth checking out.
Yeah I'm hoping for the same thing actually, it's possible I would assume that it come to PC and PS4
I'll stick with my Saturn version thanks:)
Can't go wrong there :-)
A Live Wire port is always bitter-sweet. You know you're likely to get a functional product, but have to accept that your only shot at a physical release is probably Limited Run Games.
Oh wow yeah that is true, and imagine how expensive that physical version is going to be *shudder*
Hi, I’m just wondering. Why does the Saturn version on original hardware have 3 frame lag? Should it not have any lag at all? Thanks
That gen of hardware started to be more laggy. The nes had frame, the SNES had 2, as the hardware advanced it got laggy. most Saturn games perform at 3 frames of lag, garegga does for exampe
Thanks for the explanation
Maybe a dumb question, but have you tested the input lag on the Sega ST-V original?
I wish that would be cool! I don't have access to one sadly.
@@TheElectricUnderground if you ever get a cab and a cart, I’d love to know. It feels like it’s super low but I would assume it’s the same as the Saturn as the ST-V is based on that hardware.
I'm still gonna get it. I haven't experienced any input lag as bad as Sonic's UGC/Sega Genesis Classics.
There's the arcade version, and I play it through MAME. I don't know how many frames of input lag are present, but that's the version I am most familiar with.
It' back on the eshop now. Got my hands on it just to try for the first time, played for 3 mins and Wow !! 🤣 this I love 👌👌
It s a fantastic game
Kinda wished you provided some side-by-side comparisions in this video, specifically with concerns I've heard about screen-tearing and those audio issues (that sound like they have been patched out), but this is still a solid video with some useful information. Feels like your teetering on the edge of being a completely lag-obsessed snob but you keep pulling yourself back from delving too deep into the abyss. :)
For me, I definitely want more info but I'm probably gonna buy the Switch port mainly because I don't particularly like playing on the 360 and the Saturn isn't exactly the most viable or appealing option to me atm, so basically it's my only option. Now it's just whether or not I get that $120 Limited Run edition, which I don't think you can help me with that decision. :)
Again, pretty nice video with info I definitely appreciate being out there, cheers.
THANKS...im fine with my sega saturn port eheh ^^
yep, still king of the versions of the game.
Thx for informing us about the lag. I guess the only thing we can do for now is pray to Shmups Gods that the game gets a patch that reduces the lag or just wait for a better port. Not sure how much the 360 version cost these days.
It costs around 15€ on 360, digital only.
Yes I am hoping the same thing!
Thanks for the knowledge , now to go find a Saturn version!
Absolutely (hint, psuedosaturn is your friend).
Well, I don't have a 360 or Xbox One... and I really really want to play this game. I don't think 5 frames of input delay will bother me that much. Some sources tell me (please correct this info, if you want) that Gunnail on Switch is 5 frames of input delay, yet I had a good time with it. I think the same might be for me on Switch with RS
So this port isn't a deal breaker, I think 5 frames is like the very edge of doable lag (in terms of proper gameplay, I do know you can technically play on super high lag ha). But what I would say is if you do end up enjoying the game from this port, the next step will be to get your hands on the saturn version (psuedo saturn is your friend).
@@TheElectricUnderground I'll consider it, thanks!
NOOOOOO. I was really hoping with that buildup it was going to at least match the 360 port. I’m gonna wait until the Saturn core on Mister is complete I guess…
I know right! That was my hope too. Saturn core sounds really cool, I hope we get it soon
Heads up! The game is back on the eShop! I just got it!
Oh interesting!
Maybe i'll pick this up, still learning ddp: dfk atm, but this game is awesome, hopefully other awesome shmup come to switch, specially battle garegga
Yes as long as you feel you have an informed choice on what s up with the port that s what s important to me :-)
Thanks Mark! I get to eat today lol
Given the lag and the reports of audio and graphical issues, I'll stick with the version on my Series S or dig out my 360.
EDIT: Been playing a bit on Series S. The Switch version is equal to this, so if you haven't got it already - get it. In this case 5 frames isn't a deal breaker really, but it's the frustration of knowing it could be better that's the problem. It's a wasted opportunity. Although, Live Wire seem to be responsive to an extent, so you're more likely to see improvements on the Switch version going fwd. I will pick it up if this is the case.
I like it a lot, just not enough to buy an unimproved version of a game I own and can access easily, already.
Yeah i am hopeful that we will see an improvement of the other issues of the port, but input lag is usually a deeper issue that devs struggle to reduce. It is possible though.
Unrelated but is the battle garegga port on Xbox one just as good as the PS4 port?
I believe so! I'm tempted to test it but I don't want to buy the game for a 3rd time ha (i have both digital and physical ps4)
"Help me, MiSTer FPGA," Leia says, "you're my only hope."
Fingers crossed for a Saturn core with as much attention to accuracy as the PSX core is seeing.
I know the saturn core is going to be awesome.
I tried the SSF and I believe MAME ports years ago. The SSF was the only one able to run on a Core2Duo integrated Intel graphics laptop. No clue what SSF input lag is, but wouldn't surprise me if it were quite high
Still had fun, software mode graphics looks just fine to me with mesh transparency on.
Hi thanks for this, but am quite surprised with the result, had it on 360 for ages, but bought it on the switch yesterday anyway.. The 360 version never felt quite right to me, but this feels far smoother for me, so am quite surprised by your result.. the numbers might not lie, but i prefer this version. (maybe because of shmup junkies point?)
The thing is that my lag testing does scale because I use the same methods to test the 360 port as I do the switch version. So if I'm a framer higher in an absolute sense (though that 's still to be determined) then the relative results would still hold. So the 360 port is a frame faster, it would just be a downward shift in numbers but the scale would be the same.
I'm curious if the game will get a new build when it finally reappears on the storefront.
yeah that is interesting, they go back and fire up some hot patches ha.
I’m glad it exist, so more people can play it and realize it’s better than Ikaruga, but I’ll stick with my Saturn copy.
For sure! There is the somewhat chance they could patch it or bring it to PC as well
Will “Limited Run Games” physical copy improve the experience in any way?
There could be patches by that time, but that will apply to digital copies as well
Kaze Emanaur who's been working on optimization for Super Mario 64 on original hardware and emulation should try their and at reducing imput lag on some of these ports.
For some reason this was taken off the Nintendo eshop. Really hope it was to address the lag issue.
I hope that too, but I suspect it's due to visual tears and audio funky behavior. That stuff doesn't bother me so much as the lag though.
Good news for PC players: Radiant Silvergun is coming to Steam this year, although it is based on the Xbox 360 version. Bad news: Unlike the upcoming Ray'z Arcade Collection PC port to Steam, the PC version does not support native keyboard controls. Who knows well the PC port turn out when it comes out...
Yes I'm super interested how the pc version is gonna turn out :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground The PC version will come out on August 18th, so it's not too far off to hitting Steam. I pray that one day it will get a DRM-free release on GOG or something.
Never mind; the PC version is a no show on Steam and the developers much less Gematsu has yet to inform when is it actually coming out despite their initial trailer stating it would come to Steam on the 18th before they suddenly changed it days later...
Switch games docked have always had bad input lag regardless. Playing in hand-held should be a lot more responsive feeling for this kind of game.
Don't you worry my brother, I have this whole topic covered on another video :czcams.com/video/OyaUjiBNLok/video.html Essentially, I am able to run the switch on CRT so that cuts that extra frame compared to the handheld display lag, so you get the same lag on crt as you do in handheld. The extra frame of lag cannot be escaped ha.
Does this version have Ikaruga mode? I own Ikaruga on switch too
yes it does :-)
Can t wait for the review. Rsg is One of the best shootemups i ever played. Not my style but i must admit US great. It is hard to process for me such a big combinations of buttons for weapons, but what i dislike iS the experiênce levels in the weapons. Once you reach Later levels if you don t have every weapon in a big level your are screwed.the best is the level design, bosses are great, bullet patterns are coll an a mix between old and new and finally all the weapons have a purpose. They are not there for cosmetic reasons and have strategy involved
OH yeah the experience level thing for the weapons is silly. It reminds me of the leveling system in FF2, where the more you use an attack, the stronger it is ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground or the more you get hit, the more health you grow. Definitely a masochist game.
A little bit of history, i never play Radiant Silvergun before and i was itching to play it. However, Saturn version is expensive, the Xbox version is good but i wish there's a more convenient way to play like i would take this on the go. So when i saw the game getting announced for Switch yesterday, i was pretty excited.
And then, the game got delisted from the eshop and now your review implies this version isn't worth buying. Looks like i'm gonna have to get the xbox version but like i say, i want a more convenient way to play.
there is an answer my brother, psuedo saturn :-)
Treasure is going to be at Tokyo game show this weekend on the Happinet presentation. It sounds like they will release it at that time. Treasure will hopefully have another announcement.
OHHH?! I wonder what they'll announce. A new sin and punishment would be insane.
@@TheElectricUnderground That's interesting. As I understand it Treasure doesn't exist anymore. Certainly not creating any new games. Maegawa wound up the company years ago and now just licences ports of games like Ikaruga. RSG was probably done by a crappy outsourced codehouse.
Is this the Treasure Co. Ltd comeback arc? Hoping for Guardian Heroes or Mischief Makers!
@@TheElectricUnderground sin and punishment on Wii was pretty good. I still need to play the original.
What if i don't own any other system than a switch.
Is this port worth it? and more important, it is beatable with 5 frames of lag?
in this case I would say yes. And yes you can beat the game with 5 frames of lag, but that last boss fight will be brutal, not gonna lie ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground thank you for your response.
For those who think 5 frames is acceptable, play the Switch and the Saturn version. Whichever one you do better in and find more enjoyable is the one with less lag. I used to not mind lag until I got og/MiSTer and a crt. Gamechanger. Now I'm acutely aware of lag. Especially if you try push for high scores or 1CC's. It's just more fun if you can access it.
The only time I play laggy ports on the switch is in handheld mode to get a memory of the game. But I compete on og/mister.
For the better ports on Switch I'd say I enjoy the convenience of it, the extra features, and the online leaderboards.
I actually know someone who says they don't care about lag. They are awful at gaming (which they find upsetting), but when I point out that it's due to the lagginess of their setup, they say they don't care. Go figure.
yes exactly peter, when you feel the difference then it's hard to ignore since you know what you are missing ha.
Ehhh i have access to both and dont see the issue since the switch version's strength is the portability. I've been using it and the training function to practice stage layouts with chains on my switch lite then applying that to my saturn on my sony trinitron.
Ive also tried playing radiant using saturn emulators on android and the input lag and emulation issues I have on my s20 is still much worse which was reported here.
I mean, it was expected. I think the lowest input delay I've seen on any Switch test was like 4 frames and that was pretty rare. Most of the time it's 5 frames or more, which to me says that it's not easy to get it down to 4 and probably impossible to get it much lower than that.
In most cases it wouldn't surprise me, just live wire have done such a good job up to this point (mushi is 3 frames on switch) that I dared to hope ha
@@TheElectricUnderground I didn't know they got it down to 3. That being said, I hope a future generation of consoles makes low latency a primary goal. The tech is there for extremely low latency. Good wireless keyboards and mice have latency far lower than a single frame. Logitech claims 1 ms for their lightspeed tech, but I haven't found any tests. Still, even if it's something like 10 ms, it's still unnoticable and far better than what any modern consoles offer. Would be especially nice with the rise of 1 ms TV's and combined it would be pretty much indistuingishable from CRT latency for just about anyone that doesn't have superhuman senses.
Man my luck. I was on the eShop and already to buy it. Figured I would download it later so I'll put it off so I can bring switch with me. Literally on the buy it now page and I decided to put it off till I have time at home. Now it's pulled from shop? Wtf. I was right on page to buy it. Guess I won't do that again. Yes I know it on euro eShop but why? Seems suss AF. I look forward to getting it. I did rent and play it in the 90s on my Saturn. Was so hyped to get this for my switch.
Wtf???? 😒
I wonder why it was pulled? that makes me really curious
@@TheElectricUnderground ive seen some people saying that they may have uploaded the wrong build for NA and Korea. But also Ive heard reports of some audio glitches/incorrect looping, so maybe they need to patch that out?
@@TheElectricUnderground gonna cross my fingers it's to fix the lag...... why they wouldn't just patch it, idk
Great review Sir
Thank you my friend! :-)
Game got pulled from the Eshop..read a comment that said something about audio issues and screen tearing. Probably would have been more fair to wait till it goes back live in North America because it was probably pulled for a good reason
Oh i did notice the screen tearing actually. What if they put it back and it has more lag, oh jeez ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground Hopefully it's the other way around, but i'm probably being too optimistic haha
Would you recommend the switch version if i just wanna play the game normally? No 1cc, just trying to beat it with whatever. Just for fun. I don't have any xbox consoles. I do have a Saturn tho but this game is too expensive for me on Saturn.
yes I think it's solid enough for that :-)
I think the reason is why some of the recent retro games suffer from lag cause you don't have your TV set on Game Mode!
I'll give you a example I discovered 4 years ago when I was playing MegaMan Legacy Collection on my Nintendo Switch on my Samsung 4K TV And it lagged like crazy but it played fine on the Handheld Mode!
I thought it was a glitch but when I put the setting on Game Mode on my 4K TV it lowered the Native Resolution but fixed the lag issue I had with the game!
Maybe you can try that out for Radiant Silvergun and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles The Cowabunga Collection!
Oh yeah, but what s cool about my setup is that I do all my tests on a lagless crt with a crazy fast downscaler. So essentially my tests are the lowest you are going to see, and most people's monitors are going to add additional lag
I was hoping for 4 frames, but 5 is still acceptable for me to happily support Radiant Silvergun imo.. Although the fact that the game was pulled from eShop so suddenly AND the trailer being taken down is so weird. Like what sort of critical issue was there? One can hope they accidentally put up an old version with more input lag by mistake, but I doubt that'll come true, lol
Also: Thanks for getting this news out so quick man. I know it's a bunch of work to do all the testing AND make a video so quickly, we here on your channel appreciate the effort and love you put in to make our experience with these genres even better
Don't quote me on this, but according to what Studio Mudprints mentioned during a livestream of Radiant Silvergun, they said they might've seen Xbox 360-specific credits/signatures. If that's true, I'm guessing a Nintendo employee spotted that after the game launched and informed higher ups about it.
So... I guess until Live Wire omits those Xbox 360 elements, Nintendo will keep it off the eShop.
I don't know for sure, either way... but I hope it comes back soon.
Yeah that would be cool if when they put the game back up it had less lag! Also no problem, I'm a big silvergun fan so I knew people would be excited by the port.
I'm going to guess. Laggy port
A safe bet 😤
it's livewire, have faith
Has he found out yet? How's the input lag??
wow nailed it! I was a bit more optimistic at first.
Sunnuva!
I picked up the xbox 360 port when it was on sale a few weeks ago for $7.50. Missed out out on it when it was free via. Games with gold last year.
Where the hell is it? It was up right after I saw the Direct. I bought some eShop cards and went to look again and….
*poof*
GONE!
I’m pretty pissed off.
Is there a mode that gets rid of the weapon leveling up? Never was a fan of it.
I don't believe so, unfortunately.
Is there an arcade version on the MiSTer?
I wonder if playing the game on the Ryujinx/Yuzu Switch emulators would be able to reduce lag in any way...
I've hoped that but I've heard they are laggy boys. I'll have to try one though.
@@TheElectricUnderground D'OH! Unfortunate. Let's cross our fingers & toes that we get a lag reduction update. Anyway, cool review, as usual. Keep it up.
I'm not surprised that ports of Saturn games never quite reach the same glorious highs as the originals. The SEGA Saturn is, after all, the most powerful, the most technologically advanced game system anywhere.
Yeah porting that bad boy is an undertaking for sure ha. The 360 version is solid, but I believe it's a code rewrite, which is impressive.
👍
I always tough it ways only for the ST-V, Saturn and XBOX 360
yeah keep your 360 healthy, it still has a lot of great use to this day XD
Thank you, I stay on my beloved Saturn
Can't go wrong with the Saturn or og 360 versions! Also maybe we ll see a patch or PC version?
Kinda done with shmups on switch man, this just confirms it for me. The more games/shmups I clear the more I notice the input lag and I just can't go back. Thanks!
Yeah you gotta keep an eye on switch ports, there can be solid ones (like mushihimesama) but there's always that risk of them being laggy boys.
This game was pulled from the eshop. I don't know why. Is it back on the eshop now?
It's back now. :)
@@Rivalseeker thanks for letting me know.