What causes Pellets to Spiral? | AB101 pt. 11: Precession & Nutation
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- čas přidán 12. 05. 2020
- Part 11 of the Airgun Ballistics 101 Series takes us through a few hypotheses as to why pellets spiral, eventually landing at an interesting conclusion!
Gregor Kamensek's video: • Airgun physics - part ...
Precession & Nutation Explained: • Gyroscopes: Rotation, ...
AB101 pt. 10 on transonic airflow: • Subsonic, Transonic an...
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I've been shooting airguns for 51 years, and found that I have shot better groups 40 or 50 years ago than my groups of recent times. During my school years I was the best shot in town with an airgun, but today I can hardly get two out of 5 shots close together. I believed it was due to old age or poorer eyesight, but now I realize the speeds I am shooting at is 50% to 80% higher than with my old Diana and BSA airguns. This video is the best information on the subject that I have ever seen. Thanks.
Buen punto.
Shoot your slugs fast, shoot your short pellets med, shoot your long pellets slow, watch and learn.
Glad Gregor got a mention, saved me doing it. opp's, mentioned him anyway, ah well He is well worth it.
thank you Matt, always an education.
To think i had stopped watching you because you walked on this series. Then to see what you have been doing for us!!! Wish you tons of luck with element.. Sad a epidemic was needed to get you the time for this. Stay safe Matt!
Just seriously informed, I am an Engineer and so impressed with your grasp of ballistics.
I would just like to say thankyou Matt, for making all of your videos and series.
I've been recovering from a total left knee replacement surgery since Jsnuary and I've become a huge fan of yours. It's been awesome to watch almost all of your videos of you hunting and showing of your beautiful country with the majestic animals.
Thanks again for the videos Matt, you inspired an Army veteran who at the age of 49, is coming to terms with having a major part of my body replaced and I look forward to seeing more of your hunts.
Bye from Canada.🇨🇦
i LOVE this entire series, Thanks Matt!! each episode is so rich with information, i find that i have to watch each one several times to let all that sweet information soak into my brain... which i don't mind at all!! ;)
A friend and I were having a discussion about the phenomenon just yesterday. Thanks Matt, useful info.
You’ve articulated this issues, the possible/probably causes in a logical and well thought out manor. Thank you for the time, energy and effort that when into this video.
Really good video Matt! Thanks for your hard work, time and effort to put all that info into a really accessible format. Keep up the good work and hope all is well!
Couldn't have fathomed all this without this video.. always wondered where my pellets flew with my unregulated airguns . Thank you once again! Love from Nagaland.
great info matt! delving into the "why" pellets spiral is a worthy subject. good hunting!
Matt Dubber is a wealth of information! Like many, he was my inspiration to become a CZcams content provider! Keep up the good work!
Nice job Matt. The airgun community, (especially FX) is grateful for all of your work and dedication. And to think it all started with a fun, successful hunting outing when you were a boy.
I love these videos. Like this is better than any sort of tv. The content and quality is incredible. Nice work.
I could (and in fact can) do very well without TV but would dearly miss several high quality YT channels - this is one of them.
Knowledge is power!! Thanks for the great info.. Even if i have to watch it a few more times to soak it all in great job!!
That was one of the most interesting and educational videos I have seen in quite some time. Thanks !
Thanks for doing all this work Matt, I know what time it takes to prepare a good lesson. I have really enjoyed watching it and have learn't heaps.
This video answers so many questions I have been pondering on for years. Thank you for all the work you put into this.
Me pasó lo mismo.
Awesome video always Matt. Thank you for the follow up. I have been testing this out between slugs and pellets. Keep up the awesome work.
What an incredible depth of knowledge!
Thank you so much for sharing your experience 🙏👍
A awesome video Matt.
I would like to share this info with you.
I have a HATSAN carnivore in 35 caliber.
I started using the h& n grizzly slugs and they were great out to 50 yards.
At 75 yards a group was non existent.
I switched to some jsb pellets and at a hundred yards it was a tack driver.
The jsb pellets were traveling around nine hundred feet per second.
The h&n slugs were traveling around 824 feet per second.
That to me was a big difference with only one grain difference in the weight of the ammo.
The h& n grizzlies were 82 grains.
The jsb pellets were 81 grains.
I decided to push both ball through the barrel.
I noticed the jsb had light twist rate on the skirt.
The h&n slugs had heavy deep rifling marks around the slug.
I put the inaccuracy down to the fact...
That the h&n slug was too big for my barrel.
Ballistically it's still didn't explain to me why it was spot-on at 50 yards but at 75 yards it opened up to a 12 inch group.
This information is not recent.
This information is 5 years old.
I realize things are a little bit different now and air gunning has come a long way and things are becoming more compatible...
but I believe this is still useful information for those that seek knowledge.
The one thing that has always intrigued me and also frustrated me is the amount of variables when it comes to the shooting sport.
I was strictly a powder burning guy before I became an air Gunner... But learning about air rifles has been such an education and completely help me be a better Marksman all the way around.
Further comment you have really hit the nail on the head, accuracy and projectile speed are intricately linked.
Really interesting subject Matt, I can't help feeling that this phenomenon is caused by multiple factors, one example I can think of is barrel harmonics and pellet speed. It seems that the more perfectly you can balance all the relevant factors the further you can accurately shoot them. Thanks for your hard work Matt really enjoyed watching.
Thanks for the great, informative and thought provoking content Matt🤙
Thank you for another excellent video.
Just binge watched this series, amazing info well explained !
I own a little break-barrel Diana #21 or so in 0.22 and warch your videos to learn and pleasure. For me, you explain very well and I understand quite easy. Thank you.
Good job Matt! It is a fascinating subject. As a benchrest shooter (6ppc over 100 and 200 yds) we look carefully for any indication that the bullet has passed through the paper out of perpendicular. When we see a bullet hole that is out of perfect symmetry we know for sure that load will not group. It is pretty neat that we can fire a single round and know that our load is right or wrong.
Fantastic information in this series!! Thank you
Well done Mr Dubber, i have learnt a lot just by you explaining a few things.
.Thank you
Absolutely fascinating. Make more PLEASE
Interesting stuff Matt. It’s cool that we now have the ability to really observe and experiment with these things because of the advancement in technology
available to all of us. Regarding firearm twist rates, the one downside in high powered rifles is centrifugal force causing bullets to explode in flight.
Not a problem with air guns.
Uh oh. This information is making my mind spin. Oh no! It's precessing out of control! Your video is an excellent external force to make me think. Thanks. Jess
Excellent production covering physics of air gun ballistics
Excellent video Matt and very well explained. Thanks
Matt, good information! Nice work and video!
As always a great video, I always learn something new from you. Hope all is well is SA!
Thank you for your research and sharing it
Thanks for such a comprehensive explanation.
very informative video. Thanks to Matt
There was another air gunner touching in on this issue too with his lothar walther barrel, he had an issue where the barrel was out of spec in various ways, not only crowning and chamber were not up to scratch, but also air nozzle placement was a tad out of spec.
He investigated further and found that also the inside of the barrel was burred, so he was getting pellet spiral despite weighing the pellets.
It's assumed that all of this was what was contributing to pellet spiraling.
When he wasn't getting pellet spiraling he was pulling long range shots, smacking pigeons from distances where they were almost a blur in his scope.
I'll look for this channel, very valuable content that we could all learn from and I hope it hasn't been deleted or removed yet, I believe he even follows this channel.
An excellent Layman’s explanation 👍
15 minute video on pellet stability in air? Hell yeah!
Welcome back!
I learned a lot from this series. Thanks
Brilliant. Good talk.
I didn’t know that what I thought was precession was actually nutation, so glad to learn something new
Thanks Matt
Very interesting. Took my FXMK2 out yesterday to give your theory a try.
Your info helped a lot . Also a clean barrel makes a big difference!
Good observations!
Supremely awesome videos and explanations. Thank You very much for Your work!
Very interesting Matt. It really explains alot on shooting pellets and slugs at higher speeds, versus lower speed and the BC of the projectile! Got alot out of this video!
Watch your 6, and God Bless
Very good information. Thank you!
Superb video Matt. Thanks. My limited experience of the phenomenon came shortly after watching an American talking about it - not Ted, but I forget who. My heavy pellets were corkscrewing at longer distances so I switched to a lighter pellet and the problem disappeared. My theory (or that of the American) was that my heavy pellets had insufficient spin for the speed they were travelling and the lighter pellets overcame the problem by going faster.
This was shooting an HW100 .20 at around 11fpe, the heavy pellets were JSBs at 13.7grn and the lighter ones FTTs at 11.4.
How great it would be if more slugs come out! I'd love an 11grn .20..
All the best.
Excellent job, exactly the info I wanted to learn about. Thank you sir.
Awsome explanation Matt 👌. Thanks for the info 👍
Good work
Thanks for the great information Matt.
Thanks for your passion and work Matt, I hope you take the time to reflect on the past few years and congratulate yourself for your achievements. Have a beer for me in celebration 🍺
Very interesting! It was nice to see the same thoughtful process in air rifle shooting!
I have been shooting long range rifle for years and have become very familiar with most of the physics related in this video.
Like yourself, I have had the opportunity to have discussions with Brian Litz about ballistics. Man is he sharp!!!
One aspect I have pondered is from my background as a millwright. I occasionally work with turbines, and issues related with high speed rotation.
Any item spun on its axis will tend to stabilize, until it reaches its natural frequency, or structural design limitations.
If the pellet skirt isn't "perfectly" uniform throughout its geometry, as the rate of twist and velocity increases, the material distribution variance will increase the force of the mechanical leverage on the center of gravity (proportionate to the mass of skirt's inconsistent skirt thickness/ uniformity AND position of this misplaced material relative to the canter of gravity.). The further that mass is from the center of gravity (both axially and radially), the worse the potential of effect.
If I understand air pellet dynamics correctly, the skirt slightly flares during the firing sequence to seal the expanding gas, and if there are thin spots on a skirt, they will change/redistribute material more than the thick areas of the skirt.
This can effect how the material weight distribution of the skirt maintains or disrupts gyroscopic balance in flight. And if the skirt leaves the crown on one spot on the gas seal it can further create an issue. You mentioned that as well.
I agree with you that the pellet design has it limitations.
This is so much fun playing with this stuff! So much to learn and so little time to play with it!
Welcome back master
And that my friend was a wonderful video, very very informative, thank you so much.
Thanks for all this informations
Great video bro! Packed with tons of knowledge.
Thanks for the info👍👍👍
After watching your series it begs me to ask the question of “when using your air rifle for dispatching pests or for hunting game, why would anyone want to use anything but slugs?” Don’t get me wrong because I have dispatched plenty of pests with pellets but with the longer shots approaching 100 yards, I used to get really upset when my pest was not hit in the area that would cause immediate death when I knew that I had zeroed in my rifle. I appreciate the time you have taken to explain the aerodynamics associated with and affecting the movement of both pellets and slugs. Please keep up the good work!
Ya I've been wait sence those videos. Maybe 2013 ish. You and Ted have given us some much info we all don't get the trial-and-error full experience. Thank you
There is no doubt that Matt is one of the most knowledgeable persons on the planet in the world of air gunning. There is no doubt that all this knowledge has it's benefits. But I'd be willing to bet that if you were really good friends with him, and asked him really nicely, he would whisper in your ear. "All I can tell you is that you have to experiment with your gun: different weights, diameters, power settings, ect, ect until you find the "thing" that works best for ...YOUR GUN! (I.E. - he can not tell you what "set-up" is going to work) P.S. The "trial & error" is the fun part!
Yes, awesome, this is a nice break from hunting with slugs. Not many of us shoot the open plains of Africa with little need of back stop. Mat, back to your best.
Dit was n mond vol, maar so interesant!! Nice video Matt.
wow, thanks for sharing such valuable Infos!!! you saved me a ton of time and money...now i know what to go for to get the desired accuracy
Hooray for slugs! Thanks for these vids Matt, they're super interesting.
Very good info Matt,
I tried to get H& N to make a tubular design of pellet. Peter Schmidt looked at various designs but ultimately they chose to go with the conventional designs. I have found that pellets fired from a 12 foot pound rifle chronograph faster fired backwards ie skirt first, than when they are fired forwards ie nose first. They also expand very well at close range. I have not tried them at 25 metres but around 8 meters or so. I suggested in an article, I got published in 1976, that a projecting guidance point might help pellets travel straighter in tissue. A number of years later an America company made their bullets expand with the guidance point feature. I believe it was Federal Hydra shok. Strangely all bullets and pellets are sub-sonic after they strike gelatine, water or live tissue as they become sub-sonic in that medium. The speed of sound in water and other water saturated materials is always much higher than it is in air, so bullets are always subsonic as they penetrate game or gel or water. Nice video.
This is why we have smooth twist barrel. Very very interesting. Thanks.
Very insteresting video, like all the ballistic videos serie! I've just purchased some slugs this week for testing and i hope that it will be a improvement in accuracy to long range if i can get them fast enought and if my barrel like them lol thanks you for sharing your knowledge with us!
thanks for the input I just figured this all out my self a few days ago . Roy
Hi Matt.
After writing a whole paragraph explaining why your theory is flawed, I again carefully looked at your explanation. You could very well be correct, even if some of the information is "factually incorrect" the way you explained it. (That was what triggered the initial paragraph). So, there is a way to prove your hypothesis: As according to your hypothesis the wobble is caused by the bullet following a "curve" but trying to stay pointing in straight line. This "force on the back of the skirt" (as the pellet drops) is what starts the wobble, and YES looking at Precession it then makes sense as the "correcting" force is not acting against it, but 90 deg to it. Sooooo, if you were to shoot that pellet "vertical" that "lifting force" on the back of the skirt won't be there as the pellet travels in a straight line..... If that same pellet has no wobble in the vertical, then I think you hit the nail on the head !!
I would love to find a vertical range to test that😂 But there may also be many other factors, so that test in itself may not give us an answer.
@@AirArmsHuntingSA Matt, any spot you stand is a vertical range , as long as you are outside 😂. It might be interesting and worth testing ?!?
wOW,, you make science fun,,, thanks for all your good work...
Just a thought (based on an older video of your's) : When trying to shoot very fast a diabolo shaped projectile, you use higher pressure blast of air on the back of your pellet than usual, the "cup" side , thus this higher blast may turn around the pellet just as exiting the barrel. This may oscillate the projectile until the shape forces to finally stabilize. There are 3 ways to solve it:
1. Shot at lower speed
2. Shoot with air stripper, which deflects much of the blasting air aside thus refusing the pressure on the cup.
3. Shoot the pellet reversed, the blast will flow around and keep the pellet centered.
I don't know if makes any sense, as said these are just thought triggered by your very interesting "balistics" videos, always a pleasure watching them. Thanks for your info you provide us with your work.
4) Drill 3 holes in the barrel, 120 degrees apart around the barrel, 1 to 2 inches from the muzzle, to relieve the air pressure behind the pellet just before it leaves the muzzle,--then crank up the reg pressure. :)
Just a thought.
Hope we will be seing you with the best hunting videos again.
Has to be said…………, an awesome video 👏👏👏👏
Thank you, subscribed
I'm learning so much thanks for sharing Matt bsafe
Thanks Matt! Will need to watch this a couple of times! The FX Hybrids shoot very well from my Impact but are way overpriced relative to the competition - will try the JSB KOs when they become available in Canada.
Ballistics and trajectory is a fascinating subject never had that problem personally but know a few that have and almost all have corrected themselves once tuned down one thing noticed was rate of spin down range most pellets being of a shuttlecock design making things worse as pellet speed and rotation slow....
it's a subject and a half nice video👍👍👍👍
谢谢你让我学习到了很多知识
Thanks for the no sales pitch info very refreshing, in todays airgun youtube vids
Thanks Matt dubber you are the man thanks for sharing buddy bsafe
Totally changed my outlook on 50 yard shooting.
It's all about finding the power for the pellet not pellet for the barrel.
"SUCCESS FOR YOU MATT DUBBER "
From indonesia 🇮🇩
usefull tip, thank a lot
Great video, and thanks for the work and effort you put into figuring things out for airgunners. I seem to have a problem with slugs through choked barrels, I know, a completely different topic, but in my choked barrel the slugs are stable at slower speeds and completely inaccurate and unstable at higher speeds, I don't know why, pellets are cheaper so I shoot more of them and there are more to do tests, or I should say, much more cost effective to do testing with.
thank you for sharing
🇮🇩
Very cool information! Should help my pellet choices based on the use and platform. Thank you!
Very veryyyyy good 👏👏👏👏
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Thank you Matt. I liked Ted’s video on the spiral.
Absolutely Brilliant vidclip .... So well explained .... Keep well and Stay Safe .... Cheers from New Zealand .... ( Ex Durbanville ZA .. 1996 )
you are a natural teacher..being curious is perhaps the most important trait a human being can ever experience. teaching is definitely your natural skill. Do that and you will never have to work another day in your life. God Bless America
Good video. Thanks for sharing your observations and knowledge on this issue. This is an issue that we air-gunners all face at some point in time. Overall good lesson. However, there are many air-gunners who like myself can not afford an FX air rifle with slug liner to get the results that you do. The rifle itself makes a difference in how it performs.
I think there are many other great airguns out there for a lot less. The difficulty is making sure you don’t get a ‘lemon’. Test it first before you buy it! There are some old BSA barrels for example that are worth their weight in gold.
AirArmsHuntingSA Thank you for your response. I own a Hatsan BT65 in .25 cal which is my primary Airgun and a Benjamin Armada in .22 cal. Both are nice Airguns. Both guns give me good results. My .22 is very consistent out to 60 yards. My .25 cal takes me out to 100 yards. I have gotten several clean kills at this distance. However, I do get a spiraling pellet when tuned too high or sometimes when my tune is too low or should I say low on air. Both guns are regulated. With my .22 shooting at 813 FPS I see no spiraling. My .25 cal shoots 916 FPS but I can take it up to 940 FPS with no spiral. But when the air pressure gets low the pellet appears to become unstable. So this is kind of the opposite of what you were saying. I use the JSB Exact King 25.39g in my .25 cal. So I have learned to keep my air pressure at a certain psi in order to maintain accuracy. Thanks for the dialogue. Any input or suggestions are very welcomed. Take care and stay safe.
Brilliant, not sure if you read these comments and if not that's understandable but in the slight case you do, please have a video explaining how climate/temperature/pressure affects PCPs. That I think would be perfect. As we all shoot in such different places.