What if Elrond Pushed Isildur into the Fires of Mount Doom? Theory
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- čas přidán 12. 10. 2019
- The One Ring and it’s survival by the hands of Isildur gave rise to Sauron and the War of the Ring in the Lord of the Rings, but what if Elrond had pushed Isildur into the fires of Mount Doom, bringing an end to the One Ring altogether? This theory endeavours to answer such a question! Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts about this theory in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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"I cannot destroy it for you, but i can destroy you!"
*toss Isildur into lava*
Lmaaaooo
Lol hahahah
M'eh. In the BOOKS, it never said that confrontation ever took place AT the Cracks of Doom in Orodruin. All the book has is what Elrond said at the Council of Elrond: "Isildur took it (the Ring), as should not have been. It should then have been cast into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our council.... and therefore whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it."
The scene with Elrond and Isildur at the Crack of Doom, with Elrond jabbing his finger towards the chasm, was just a fanciful concoction of Jackson, Inc.
ROFL
Death Reviews next you’re going to tell me Legolas didn’t use a shield like a snowboard down stairs.
1. Hit Isildur on back of his head.
2. He falls unconscious.
3. Push ring in Fires of Mount Doom.
4. Wake Isildur up, tell him ring's power was too much for him to handle so he fell unconscious and the Ring fell.
5. Pat him on the shoulder.
6. Party!!
Brilliant.
Lol 😂
thousands of years of peace
yes and no. No because head injuries doesn´t work that way in reality. If you hit someone hard enough to make them pass out, they are likely to sustain severe head injury and probably brain damage. Yes because Tolkien literally used this cliché in the Hobbit when Bilbo passed out during the battle of the five armies.
The most essential step is the last
Isildur soldiers: "Where is Lord Isildur?"
Elrond doing Gimli face: "He fell..."
It is unwise to seek the counsel of elves, for they will answer with both yes and no.....
@@terrylandess6072 I just read Fellowship a few days ago and recognize that quote
''he slipped and fell into the fire''
LOL
*Looks at audience with a weird funny face* "...after my foot pushed him. I mean, technically he still did fall." *winks* *freezes* *funny family guyish punchline music in the background*
Frodo: "Pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance."
Gandalf: "Do not be quick to deal out Death in judgment."
probably the best quote in the films
And very adequate for this scenario
It was pity that stayed Bilbis hand
"...For even the Wise cannot see all ends."
Death and Judgement.
*Everyone:* He killed our high king!
*Elrond:* He put on the ring and Sauron possessed him.
*Everyone:* oh, ok
THE END
In such a situation nobody was willing to listen to Elrond the murderer of their king.
The Last Phoenix
Everyone: but what if Sauron possessed Elrond and that’s why he killed our king? We should still kill him
Fake news, Isildur did nothing wrong!
Bullshit. People listening to reason in a tense situation? That's the REAL fantasy you got there.
Azaram 813 we’ll just kill everybody. Just in case.
"This is madness!"
"No. This ... is ... MORDOR!" *kick*
Walks out
"Where's Isildur?"
"I'm afraid in his weariness he slipped..."
Don't forget the spittle LOL...
Grand Moff ” umm Sauron was enclosed inside the ring when Isildur tried to throw it in, a large arm came out and took Isildur with it.”
OH, and the accent.
"THAES AES MODOOOOR!!!" *Spittle*
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Elrond: Trade ya three elven rings for that plain gold one.
Isildur: No.
Elrond: But it's my birthday.
Elrond: And I wants it
Isildur: I found this and I’m going to keep it
Elrond: oh are you indeed my love
Elrond strangles Isildur
And I wants it
"Melkor laughed forever in the void." First of all, that might be the most bloodcurdling sentence I've ever heard. Second of all, you're exactly right. If elves and men fought each other, then Melkor would have, in a way, won.
Also:
"Rain fell upon Middle-Earth, and it would never cease, for these were the tears of Ilúvatar, as His children had slaughtered each other." That might be the most devastating sentence I've ever heard.
There really is some beautiful prose here.
Yes but they beeeeeen slaughtering each other, Feinor/Fingulfin/Noldor/Numenor.
* inhales * *ISILDUuuURR*
*No...* * smirks and walks away*
I love you guys
Why, why, why do you persist, Mr. Isildur?
"But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?'" :)
fantasywind “And also, am I not a great leader of men? Man: who’s doom is to make short-sighted, self-interested decisions again and again unto all the ages? Yes I am!” * pockets ring.
Elrond: Cast it into the fire! Destroy it!
Isildur: I gotchu fam
*Directed by Peter Jackson*
11
Somehow they stretch that out over 3 movies :P
@@josephn1000 It's like in Inception. While the ring is towards the fire, fifteen wars are taking place in different dream levels.
In the Lego Lord Of The Rings game there is an achievement called that it wont be that easy where you throw Isildur into the fires of Mount Doom.
Isildur: fam this ring makes me feel soooo good you should try it too *forcibly puts the ring on elrond*
I recall being told of a letter in which Tolkien explained that literally no one could have thrown the Ring into the fires by their own will power. Frodo bringing it to the very chasm was as close as anyone could have done. There in the heart of its realm, the Ring's power was stronger than the will of any other person.
So when it comes to Elrond and Isildur, sure Elrond was pure enough of heart to have the wherewithall to TELL Isildur to cast it into the fire, but he would not have been able to do it himself. No matter if he tried to knock Isildur out, or cut off his hand, or just push him in all together, Elrond could not have forced himself to destroy the Ring.
Would Tom be able to do it?
I think so, but of course TB never seemed to trouble himself with such things anyway
@@LeeYoung296 Yes, so, when Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel talk about where best to hide the ring, Tom comes up, but is soon after discarded. On one hand, he’d make for a perfect ring bearer as the ring has no effect on him, but on the other hand, the fear was that Tom would eventually forget about the ring due to its insignificance to him, which could end disastrously for middle earth.
I disagree. If lowley Sméagol can attack Frodo and throw the ring in by accident I see no reason why Elrond couldn’t simply push him in. I agree the ring is more powerful at mount doom and no true ring bearer would ever be able to throw it in but again Elrond wasn’t wearing it and thus shouldn’t have been effected by its power
@@mikecampbell1731 Because Elrond pushing Isildur would be a conscious act to destroy the ring, whereas gollum never intended to destroy the ring, he wanted it for himself.
For that to work, Elrond would have to - without choosing to do so might I add - reach for the ring to keep it for himself, with the ensuing melee accidentally ending in the destruction of the ring.
“Let’s make a pro and cons list”- Isildur
**puts on ring and runs away**
"1. It makes you invisible"
Pro 2, It fits perfectly!
3. Im the one who slice it from sauron, so fuck off
1. It's precious
Considering the kingdoms of humans had lost 9 of their kings to the corruption of the lesser rings, wouldn't Humans be somewhat aware that the destruction of the One Ring would be a good thing. I'm not saying that they would be happy with Isildur's death, but surely some of them would have recognized that ridding the world of Sauron's evil would be a worthy trade-off.
True, but revenge overrides common sense more often than not.
For sure! I think they would have understood that through the One Ring, the Nine had fallen, but I do not think they would know the extent of its power, nor that Sauron endured because of it. Thus, they would have felt Isildur's death for its destruction to be unnecessary.
Those king's weren't From Gondor or Anor, they were from Harad and Khand so they may have never heard of them.
A better argument for Sauron's corrupting influence would have been the Numenourians in Umbar or the High King who was corrupted and declared war on Valinor in the 2nd age.
But alas, men are stupid..... eye for an eye and all...
@@MenoftheWest Hi. Great video, but I'm afraid you have a Catch-22 type of situation here. If Elrond was ready to commit a murder, that would make him evil in the moral code of Middle-earth. And if he was evil he wouldn't want to destroy the Ring. I think Tolkien was very clear that Good People don't do wrong things even for the right reason.
Considering the thousands that die in battle, the gracious thing to do would be for Elrond to offer his life to the humans in repayment for the life of their king, and to show that it was not done in malice.
Not thousands, more like 100 000 over. Both Lindon and Arnor never recovered their former population.
No. An elven life is worth far more than even a thousand human lives because elves are immortal whereas the humans lived for a couple of decades.
@@GeorgeMonet all lives are equal
@@goodputin4324 idealistically yes but elves prize their life force above all else or they will never walk on the stars. With the races of middle earth ive always seen it as this.
Elves-selfish and racist
dwarfs- stubborn and hard working
men- self absorbed and let their emotions show
hobbits- pure hearted and kind
What makes this cool is imo is mixed races you get to see a merge of traits from both races.
Let's hope the humans aren't aware that Elrond will be immediately resurrected.
A fun theory, and well thought out too, but I could never see Elrond doing this. As our guy mentions at one point, Elendil and his sons are family. Distant family, but Elrond remembers his brother and will have thought of him when seeing anyone of numenorean royal descent.
So he remembers his brother, eh? That means he is ok with this great- great-...-grandson/grandnephew marrying his daughter.
@@qaz010wsx still much less inbred than average irl aristorcracy
@@qaz010wsx you say that like incest isnt super common amongst royal families. It is insanely common. It is how they keep their bloodlines pure
Yep and its why Elrond raised all the future Kings of Arnor and later the Chieftains of the Dunedain; he has a high degree of loyalty to his family. Aragorn, who he raised as his foster father, is also directly related to Elrond, although separated by thousands of years. And yeah he was totally fine with Arwen marrying Aragorn so long as Aragorn met Elrond's conditions(that being: the final defeat of Sauron, and gaining the Kingship of Arnor and Gondor).
@@chucknorris202 this slightly implies that all or many of the Dunedain Chieftains were brought to Rivendell and Arwen was always entertaining them as a romantic interest.
Elrond: "Are you okay?"
Círdan: "I have the power of foresight. I went forewords in time to view alternate outcomes of the coming conflict."
Gil-Galad: "How many did you see?"
Círdan: "14 000 605!"
Elrond: And in how many did we win?"
Círdan: "1"!
*after Sauron's' defeat in Mordor*
Elrond: "Isildur! Let's take the One Ring to Mount Doom and destroy it!"
Isildur: "No, I'm gonna keep it. It will be an heirloom of my house."
Elrond" ISILDUR!"
*Círdan stops Elrond and waits for Isildur to leave*
Elrond: "Why?"
Círdan: "There was no other way."
Couldn't Elrond just take it out of Isildurs hands and throw it?
Days with Mylo! Isildur would have drawn his sword to kill Elrond because he was already starting to be corrupted by the ring
So Cirdan is also Stephen Strange. I love that.
@@Hi-fh8ij Isildur was Numenorian and enhanced by the corruption of the ring. Much easier said than done
Wow, this is funny.
What if Frodo and Sam ran out of Lembas Bread???
Aaron : What if nice Sméagol ate all the Lembas Bread? (Burp)
Then they would eat Sméagol, and eventually Frodo would eat Sam.
XD
@@redblaze8700 Nah, I think Smeagol would whisper doubts into Frodo to convince him that it was Sam the Fat who ate all the bread so they eat Sam first. The 'autopsy' would reveal that Sam didn't have all that Lembas in him so Frodo would feel remorseful and kill the Gollum for that treachery. When confronting the child of Ungolianth, Frodo would be pushed back so in order to sneak past her he uses the Gollum's corpse as a bait.
Anthony McRooster But Shelob wouldn’t eat Sméagol since he is so thin and bony, so she would’ve go after Frodo instead, while the ring is lost somewhere in the tunnels.
What if they ended up with some nice taters?
"This human guy is like "You know actually I'm gonna keep it. I like it so I'm gonna keep it and its mine now"
"Wow. Does Elrond try to stop him?"
"Of course he does..."
"Okay good!"
"...verbally, a little "
"Well, it seems like a lot of potential problems could have been avoided if he put a bit more effort into that."
"Probably! So anyway..."
Pitch Meeting?
@@BoyKagome Yep!
I think Elrond would have never consider killing Isildur even for greater good. Becoming kinslayer (which in Tolkien mythology was pretty much the biggest crime one can commit and Isildur being Elronds distant nephew), especially after being well aware of the tragedy of sons of Feanor would never sit well with him.
"Rain fell upon Middle-Earth, and it would never cease, for these were the tears of Ilúvatar, as His children had slaughtered each other."
I didn't ask for these feels
Sounds a lot like our world. 😞
@@joannelucille not really there has been less war in the last 80 years than at any point through history. It’s hard to believe but this is the most peaceful time in history.
@@T.GLongstaff yes, but not because we've grown wiser, it's because of nuclear bombs and Mutually Assured Destruction.
God imagine how worse our world would be if nukes were never a thing
@@echidnanatsuki882 Basically plot of Red Alert 3 :)
What if Isildur slipped on a rock and fell into lava
Elrond: DESTROY IT!!!!
Isildur: No.{Turns to leave, then slips on a rock like a dork and falls into the lava below}
Elrond: Oh f@$&! I’m going to get blamed for this somehow. I just know it!
I mean spongebob tripped on a pebble so its hella possible 💁🏽♂️
"The lieutenant just slipped Sir."
Bearman than bilbo baggins, WOULDNT have been able to save the dwarves from the elves who were trying to reclaim there homeland, and I know your probably saying, but Sauron was destroyed, well that’s true but not all monsters were bound to Sauron, Shelob wasnt, so neither were the Mirkwood spiders, meaning they wouldn’t even be saved by the elves they would’ve been eaten by spiders....bam the dwarves DONT reclaim there homeland and bilbo is eaten by spiders
Bearman They would make war against the Rock
I always believed the corrupting power of the ring grew greater as it came closer to mt. Doom. If elrond decided to attack isildur, he may also fall under its influence and decide to keep it.
Valid argument
I'm not sure if the location of the Ring matters but I definitely believe, the closer the Ring is to destruction the more power and influence it will unleash in an attempt to corrupt it's bearer.
I like to think that no one is capable of destroying the ring on purpose. It had to be some accident
@@danielebeddia8910 That raises the question, if Elrond tried to push Isildur into mountain doom with the intention of destroying him with the RIng would the corruption of the Ring stop him? Or does the corruption only prevent the Ring bearer from consciously destroying it.
@@whoknows7968 Propadlly. Maybe that is why only halflings, like Sam, Frodo and Golum, could get so far to actually destroy it (even if barelly), since hobbits are very resistant to the corruption of the ring.
8:33
That argonian must be like 'wtf am i doing here?'
Lol
😂😂😂
Yeah!
He’s like: “What the...Thalmor here too?? And what’s with the white tree??”
"Hmmm... yes. It is good to exist."
My answer to that question:
Then Elrond would be simultaneously both the worst *and* best friend ever.
Not to mention the worst uncle ever
@@sharonsartisticcorner1195 I think there will still be worse uncles then him like Steppenwolf from Jostice League since how could anyone that poorly designed exist
Actually there is an achievement in the Lego LOTR if you killed yourself as Isildur in the first mission throwing yourself into the mount doom.
I don't remember the name of the achievement.
It's called, "It won't be that easy!" and that name is correct in this context!!!
I checked, apparently it is "It won't be that easy!".
lol that's awesome, I just wish the Lego games did more with their game options and let me change camera pitch Y swap cus I just can't play em forced into that camera control style lol
but I loved the Lego games when they did let me flip my camera eh
I now have to go do this. Excuse me... 🤣
Probably called ISILDUUUUURRRRR
I can't see Elrond spending Elven lives to save his own neck, instead of just offering his own life to pay for Isildur's at the on-set.
Indeed, like I see Elrond going home to Imladris and packing his suitcases to go to Valinor, but if he and the Elves were apprehended by Men on their way to the Grey Havens, he would gladly surrender his life if that meant the children of Eru Illuvatar won’t wage war against each other.
Yeah, agree.
If Elrond kills Isildur, I think he then just goes up to men and says: "I murdered Isildur, feel free to kill me, however the other elves are innocent. I acted alone." And then Elrond possibly gets executed, and everyone else lives happily ever after.
Especially since Elrond will literally reincarnate lol
@@ellag3265 ohhh I know 😱
Immortality AND reincarnation just in case
Im furious as Al Pharazon 😡 😱😡😱😡
@@mechadoggy Elrond with actual suitcases.
Rolling luggage 🤣
Elrond: "Destroy it!"
Isildur: "No."
Elrond: "Get danked noob."
Double tap…
Elrond: Cast it into the Fire!
Isildur: No...
Elrond: Fine.. I’ll do it myself
Wrong Thanos quote you should have used I'm sorry little one.
Elrond:"No, Isildur slipped and fell! I tried to catch him, but, alas, I was just not quick enough. Also, let it be known, that snitches get stitches. Now excuse me while I start fading and go sail into the West" The End.
Worked for the Kennedys...
It will never stop to amaze me how one mind could create all of this.So many names,so many flawless back stories,so many main characters perfectly made,so many friendship and so much evil.
In the books, as the quotes at the beginning said, there was never a scene of Elrond and Isildur in the cracks of doom like there was in the movie. Elrond had a post-battle discussion with Isildur, and he advised Isildur to destroy it. It is not directly implied in the books that either of the two of them ever went to the cracks of doom. That scene was added to the prologue of Fellowship of the Ring for dramatic effect.
HISHE really missed the opportunity to use this idea lol
True.
Elrond, being "the wise" would have simply said, Isildur was torn by the spirit of Sauron trying to possess him and prevent him from destroying the ring and so cast himself into the fire to finish what he had started, and save the world. The end. It would have been a small lie easily sold by making Isildur the hero. I'm sure he and CIrdan could even muster up a few fake tears which probably wouldn't have been hard to do consideriing they killed a friend. He could even have begged forgiveness for not being able to stop Isildur to add icing to the cake. It's not like the Elves didn't know how to lie.........quit frowing like that. :P
At Bill Kennedy. You are forgetting Isildur's squire who witnessed the murder.
@@russellshaw8479 *stab stab throw splash* What squire? :)
@@manuelgreil4306. I guess, by that point they might as well have just allowed the original story line to play out. They would be trading one evil for another.
This example proves how wise and far seeing Elrond actually was. In the end middle earth was freed from Sauron, the elves peacefully faded to the west, dwarves and men (and hobbits) had a happy ending. As fairy tales should.
@@russellshaw8479 they could kill Him and say that a orc straggler shot the the
Squire
@@technounionrepresentative4274 Agreed. But, the problem is by these acts they become what they were fighting. Murderers and liars. Sadly.
"What if Elrond had pushed Isildur into the Fires of Mount Doom?"
Answer: One crispy Isildur and a whole lotta peace.
@@CaseyJonasCatt We'd also have a very remorseful elf. Isildur was the new King of Gondor after his father was slain by Sauron.
well I don’t think Elrond would even have been able to push him, don’t forget he is a numenorian physically stronger and larger than elves. Elrond didn’t have his ring of power on yet.
It's a fun thought that it might be that simple. But really that kind of detaches the story from reality more than necessary.
We all wish life was so simple. Snuff out Lincoln, or Jefferson Davis what possible harm could come from it?
Snuff out Putin, or Trump, or Biden? It'll be fine I'm sure... Snuff out Cookie Monster, or Yoda? Sorry, went too far.
Anyhow... The world isn't cartoon simple. Even in Lord of the Rings.
@@CaseyJonasCatt And Durin's Bane.
Jesus, just makes you feel bad for Elrond. To die by men, especially since he was part men and that his brother even chose to be with those of men over elves. Its so sad ...
Elrond: "If I must destroy you to destroy the Ring, then so be it!"
Isildur: "O really? Now you see me, now you don't!"
Elrond: "What? Where did you--"
Elrond: *decapitated*
Pretty sure elrond would be able to detect him regardless. If smegle can do it, a vastly powerful elf could.
best possible outcome: Elrond kicks Isildur into the fire, THEN SUICIDE JUMPING AS WELL. when the mountain explodes everyone assumes they died by accident, happiness and no war. the end
Best possible outcome. Morgoth jumps in a volcano instead of destroying the trees of light, Sauron did not turn evil, Feanor don't kill the king of sea elves, everybody's happy, flying unicorn shit rainbows.
everything that makes the books what is is doesn't happen and no one cares.
*the end*
That would be the best alternative ending, as someone said, elves are not afraid of death so he could have sacrificed himself as well. After that the people could use that "incident" as a way to unite the elves and men
Honestly the corruption of the ring seems to be based largely by personal power and proximity. The close you get, the worse it is as well as the "Stronger" and more power driven you are. Simply put I really doubt Elrond could get close without falling to the power of the ring himself. The best option would of been an arrow shot.... perhaps shooting the ring out of hand directly. Might even been able to manage it without causing any harm due to eleven hax powers.
Sadly I don't think it would really matter if Isildur died or not though, unless the rings destruciton completely cleared the greed in Isildur's heart he'd seek vengeance just the same. Killing himself also wouldn't achieve much unless there were no witnesses at all, which again the conveniently placed squire which saw just enough would be the issue.
For all we know the ring fogged Elrond's mind preventing him from even thinking about kicking Isildur into the flames. Frodo "succeeded" because it's the greed the ring itself created that caused the fall Gollum into the volcano.
Or maybe the failure of Isildur and Elrond is what led to the divine intervention causing Gollum to trip, perhaps Illuvitar knew from the first time that the ring would not allow itself to be destroyed so this time he made it happen.
Not sure though, I feel like he'd have known that the first time given his all-knowing thing
@@hellaciousharry We can crearly see some of Eru's interventions through out the story.
We can see it crearly when Gandalf said: “Behind that [Bilbo finding the ring] *there was something else at work,* beyond any design of the Ring-maker. *I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring,* _and not by its maker.”_ (LotR, Fellowship of the Ring, chapter 2)
My research has shown that the chair of Oxford's English department actually tried to shove Isildur in so that Tolkien would abandon the novel, publish more and take on greater teaching responsibilities, but JRRT had him ambushed by some orcs and erased from the history of Middle Earth. True story.
Great alternate history! Proof that “How-The-War-Of-The-Last-Alliance-Should-Have-Ended” options could spin out into new conflict...
Thanks David! It’s good to hear from you again, my friend! I hope the music is going well! I’m still so glad that we collaborated on that Sauron history!
@@MenoftheWest could you make a video about why Bormire was not made into the king of Gondor after defending it for so long?
@@christophermaccool8029 The Line of Kings had died out a thousand years before the events of LOTR. Boromir was only a commander of Gondor, son of Steward Denethor. The Stewards of Gondor came after the Kings. Boromir was in line to receive the title of Steward, had he not been slain. If he had survived Amon Hen, he would have become the Steward under King Elessar (Aragorn).
@@rhudaur3609 but remember Gondor has not had a king for centuries and Denethor said himself he would not bow to Aragorn and Bormire said himself Gondor needs no King even though I am sure Bormire regretted that later on but as for his father it is obviously doubtful so you think Denethor would make his older and favorite son king and all of Gondor would approve and Bormire himself would too before he was forced to go to Rivendell.
@@raulramirez4734 what does?
Erlond: throw the Ring Isildur!!!!
Isildur:NO!!!!
Erlond:THIS IS SPARTA!!!
lmfao!
It's *Elrond bruh
(Pokemon) trainer: Hitmonlee use high jump kick, HITMONLEE whaa (kicked) isildur: NOOO
Trainer: yea I just won my volcano badge yippee lol
Really interesting! It seems it all hinges on that one human guy seeing Elrond kill Izildur though, right?
How would it change if nobody had witnessed this and Elrond could have explained or lied to the men waiting there?
Or simply said nothing, leaving without a word without the king of men
Isildur: (walks away from lava)
Elrond: "UNO reverse card!"
It's over Isuldur, I have the high ground!!
You underestimate my power, Elrond!!
Isuldur leaps at Elrond who pushes him into the lava.....
Dysnie buys amazom and this remake is going to be in : 2024 mark my words
All he has to do is step to the side since there is no guard rails on that thin bridge then he is 100% guilt free.
Spot on, Yoystan. Clearly this would be a betrayal on the part of Elrond, but I've often wondered about the consequences of this hypothetical murder. Thanks for delving into it!
Elrond could have simply said when the One Ring was cast into the fire, the lava consumed Isildur. He wouldn't have to had said the ring was still being held by Isildur when he was pushed in. Maybe the Men would've considered Isildur a hero then, and only Elrond would know the truth of what really happened.
@@jeffburnham6611 I think in this video it's stated that one of Isildurs men witnessed the murder so lying was out of the question. Now if that guy was actually present in the books or was added purely for this video I can't say.
Would be a pretty dull video though if it went Men and Elves win, Isildur gets chucked in Mt Doom, Elrond lies, everyone lives happily ever after.
I think what a lot of people forget is that for Elrond, Isildur was family, if distant. Elrond had already lost his parents to a kinslaying. He'd watch reckless actions destroy the sons of Feanor. He'd seen rash and prideful actions destroy the numenorians. He'd grown up listening how pride and treachery had led to the near triumph of Morgoth in the first age. In the end, for him, the idea of killing a family member in hopes of preventing a future evil was probably more abhorrent than can be expressed in any language, Human, Elvish, or even Entish.
@@morgant.dulaman8733 - Absolutely correct! Kin-slaying is one of the worst sins to commit in Middle-Earth and it would have certainly been kin-slaying. The movies overplay this scene in my opinion, especially Isildur. Its also doubtful that Cirdan, Elrond and Isiltur were every at the Sammath Naur.
Cirdan: Elrond! Cast him into the fire!!
Elrond: .. NO!
Cirdan: ELROOOND!!!!!
13:35 I was so scared he was gonna hit us with a "Somehow Melkor has returned" kinda thing.
As I thought lol. Ending the true evil of the world. But screwing any friendly relationship between Humans and Elves.
Not necessarily. "He slipped."
kettch777 His boots were untied
“He dropped it and tried to dive in after it. I told him to let it go but he just dove right in like Michael Phelps”
@@spaceycaveco.698 ROFLMFAO!!
"I can't throw it Mr Frodo... but I can throw you!"
Isildur: "No"
Elrond: *Yeet*
But the question is: could he do it?
Isildur wasn't just a random princeling, he was a Numenorean, the son of Elendil, he was an incredibly powerful man who was involved in the duel with Sauron, and ended up killing him
He is probably not as powerful as Elrond, however while in the possession of the one ring his power was probably greater than Elrond could handle
And he couldn't just sneak attack Isildur since the ring would probably warn him
Much shows in all the books outside the lotr books, isildur is much diminished version of his anscestors. Even his dad was rather diminished too. The only purest line was aragorn and Arwen merging bloodlines from two different strands that share anscestors. This is what revived nomenorean blood of Elros and Elrond coming together again. Which unifies elves to men again.
The diminishment shows in their lessened lifespans and height; Elendil stood 8 ft tall while Isildur stood 7 ft tall; that’s one example of diminshment.
Contra Peter Jackson, Isildur didn’t kill Sauron. It took the combined efforts of Gil-galad and Elendil and cost them both their lives.
@@dw1419 Isildur and Anarion formed an alliance and beat Sauron at Dagorlad in the books as well. Plus Isildur WAS able to cut off Sauron's finger and seperate him from the ring in the books as well. So its not just made up for the movie. Isildur is a numenorean and is definitely relative to Sauron. Much weaker, but still able to damage hm, react to him and fight him. Considering Sauron is described to be "of far higher order" than the Maiar that came to middle earth as the 5 wizard istari like gandalf and saruman. That makes Isildur a pretty tough out for just about any mortal in this verse. I agree he is definitely beneath Elrond base to base. But with the one ring Elrond would get slept.
Keep in mind, the blood of numenor was eventually diluted. Down the line. Which is why there are lots of average, and below average men. But Isildur was alive before the downfall of numenor lmfao. It would be absurd to say he was diluted when he was born into their civilization at its height. And it was only starting to fall due to sauron. Also, the dilution of the blood of numenor doesnt make a human weaker. It makes you less likely to be exceptional. And more likely to be less exceptional, even if you are. So it doesn't mean each generation gets weaker than the one before it automatically. It just means each new generation is less likely to be on that level than their parents. But the odds never drop to 0% because that power and potential is still in the blood. It just depends on how much of the blood of numenor you inherit, compared to how much of the diluted human blood you inherit. Aragorn didn't gain any new numenorean blood when he became Elessar. He simply got outrageously lucky in the genetic lottery and inherited most of the power of his ancestors, which is why he was so exceptional of course. Most or all of his blood was inherited from the blood of numenor. With very little or no diluted blood. Thats why he could even surpass all his fathers and everyone who came before. Rejoining the blood with Arwen helped and was good, but she had forsaken the fate of elves and was not an elf anymore by then. Since she won't go to Valinor when she dies.
@@ExtraVictory Isildur cutting off the finger from Sauron's corpse after Elendil and Gil-galad had been powerful enough to kill him (at the cost of their lives) even while he was wearing the ring is completely different from the movie portrayal, in which Sauron is completely OP and untouchable by anyone until Isildur, seconds from being killed, happens to get a lucky shot that slices off the ring.
I think Elrond should've done it and then turned himself over to men and surrendered.
That would've gone a long way toward good faith and having men listen to what he had to say instead of fleeing like a coward who didnt want to own up to his responsibility.
He could've then explained why the ring had to be destroyed, how it corrupted Isildur, etc.
Maybe the men would've listened. Maybe they wouldn't have. But either way, they would've just executed Elrond since he was the murderer of their high king, then that could've been the end of it. Men would feel like justice was done, elves would've lost a great leader but ultimately all the elves wanted to leave middle earth after the ring was destroyed anyway.
And since Elrond basically would've just gone to elf-heaven when he died, it would've been the best outcome and happy ending ultimately for everyone.
The elves would probably be super pissed off. It might start a war.
If I was Elrond I think I would have yeeted myself to the lava
Considering elrond is basically ereinons heir (him +galadriel being the only other finwëans left in me after ereinons death) that wouldn't go over well.
@@Sayu277 Why not? You don't think his people would admire and respect his sacrifice?
@@samsunguser3148 Nah, being burned alive is too painful compared to a mere execution via hanging or beheading at the hands of Men
Moral of the story: Leave no witnesses!
"Where is Isildur? Where is the king?"
"He... uh... fell... into the lava?"
"... fair enough. Alas, Isildur!"
- roll credits - TAN TAAAAA TAAAA TA TA TAAAAAAA TA TA TAAAAA TA TA TAAAAA TA TA TAAAAAA TAAAAAA TA TAAAAAA
Isildur: The ring is mine!!
Elrond: I’m gonna do what’s called a pro-gamer move!
*Elrond yeets Isildur into mount doom*
*Ending ost plays as credit rolls*
LEEROY JENKIN!!!
I wonder what would have happened if Isildur heeded Elrond's concil and threw the Ring into the fire of Mt. Doom
That would have made for the most peaceful Middle-earth! All free folk could live together in harmony, and Sauron would not return!
I am not so sure about that. The Dwarves would have still probably awoken the Balrog eventually and Khazad Dum would have still potentially fallen. There could still easily have been distrust between the Elves and the Dwarves. Sauron and the One Ring did not cause this rift. There is also still the distinct possibility that the envy of Men for the longevity of the Elves could have eventually caused strife between them. While the descendants of Elendil and the other Numenoreans may not have lost much sleep over this difference between them, there are other Men who could have easily developed distrust and even hatred for the Eldar. The Easterlings and the Men of Harad are two likely sources for this, as they were long in the service of Sauron, even before the coming of the Numenoreans to Middle Earth. It is also possible that the Kingdoms of Men would've eventually warred with each other...for Men are weak and easily forget the lessons of the past.
Richard Yarbrough : All true.
Also there is the small matter of Smaug the Dragon, who would likely still descend on the Lonely Mountain, destroying Dale and the Kingdom of Thror.
The fate of Smaug might have been quite different. With Sauron destroyed, there would be no need for the Valar to send the Istari (the Five Wizards) into Middle Earth. Without Gandalf, Bilbo Baggins would not have accompanied Thorin Oakenshield on his quest - and Thorin’s Company might never have made it to the Lonely Mountain, likely being killed by goblins or imprisoned by Thranduil the King of the Greenwood Elves. Even if they had made it there, without Bilbo and the Ring, Smaug would almost certainly have destroyed them all.
I doubt that it actually could have happened this way, the power of the Ring at Orodruin is at it's maximum, even if Isildur listened to Elrond and Cirdan, he would be still most likely unable to willingly destroy it as:
‘Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought.’"
...
"At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist,..."
Any other course of events, the violent scuffle or anything of the sort would also mean the inevitable fall into corruption of the one who would attempt to take the Ring by force, it would work all the stronger.
@@fantasywind3923 interesting, so it would corrupt Elrond too unless he ninja-threw Isildur into the fire.
I like that these 'What If' videos are interspersed about once a month, which keeps them fun to think on, as opposed to gimmicky. Spot on as always! thank you
Me, knowing really only two of the characters in this theory: "Yup, sounds about right, makes sense to me"
...lol...you're not alone
Yeah same here.
Good work! Elrond pushing Isildor into Mt. Doom would have been a Kinslaying. I reckon that had Cirdan allowed this he wouldn't have gone West, either through shame or a Ban, nor could his people continue to sail the straight path. Elrond would have sought the halls of Mandos through death, and the judgement would be long and severe. Death would be the only path to the West for the Elves of Middle Earth.
Bro I’ve been wondering this since I was 7 years old
I doubt that
“”Bro””
Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature~ Flemeth
I feel that Elrond may have offered his own life as tribute. The Elves wouldn't be happy, but his daughter was alive during that period. She could lead them. Elrond would feel so guilty that he probably would allow himself to be executed to save his people.
Nope. Elrond did not have kids until the Third Age.
Reasons why Isildur falling into Mount Doom that day with the ring would be a moot point:
-A big narrative focus of the LOTR story is in how these evil events happen but the way the free peoples respond to them is often heroic and positive, and it brings countries together, forms countries, there are even intellectual renaissance periods e.g. Aragorn ascending to the throne and the Dunedain culture being more accepted in Gondor, means also the advent of classical Elven education.
In the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, Eru Illuvatar explicitly states to Melkor that he is using him to bring about more good, not less. More good than Melkor can even understand or see.
Melkor's evil is a tool. For Illuvatar it is part of the natural cycle of society and the world recreating itself and improving. In every age society grows and Melkor's forces (i.e. Sauron as well by extension) take another step back in scale. From ruining entire mountains to being reduced to struggling to muster an army.
-Melkor has marred all of Arda. The entire world is corrupted and this influences free people to become evil too.
There will always be evil in some form and it will always mount to a great strength. That's just how Tolkien's universe works. Sauron losing now or later doesn't change that; Melkor has altered the world either forever or until it is remade.
This version of "what if theory " blew me away! Although the destruction of one greater evil was achieved, vengeance and hatred was left behind to linger and fester like a deadly cancer. This version has earned a top spot on my playback list as with a few more of your dedicated theories! KUDOS!
This is amazing!
It fits the tone of the original narrative and answers realistically a question I've always wondered about
Amazing as always, Yoystan
An interesting video : ) Here are some additional thoughts:
-It's questionable whether Elrond would have the strength to take down the man who defeated Sauron, and he would also be weakened mentally from attacking a friend
-If the ring changes hands by violent means it seems to have very negative consequences for the new bearer, even in the short term. Remember that Bilbo found (or confiscated) the ring, while it was gifted to Frodo. This may have ended with Elrond killing Isildur and then taking the ring for himself.
-The more powerful an individual already is, the more tempting the ring seems to be for them, the stronger it corrupts them - compare Hobbits with a Numenorian like Isildur, or the fact that Gandalf and Galadriel refused to take the ring, explaining that it would be especially destructive if they were to become ringbearers
Elrond noticed the squire who had observed as he shoved Isildur to his doom. The man backed away slowly, terror in his eyes. Elrond casually walked up to him, put his arm around his shoulder and said:" This is a great honor for you. To walk in the footsteps of kings." Then, with a quick and violent move, he unceremoniously tossed the squire into the lava. Cirdan looked on in horror. "I do not imagine that you approve of my actions here, brother.", Elrond said. "I Cannot say that I do.", answered Cirdan. Elrond turned his back to him and mumbled to himself:" Thus sailed Cirdan, the oldest and wisests of the elves, finally into the west.", as he slowly reached for his dagger.
Elrond emerged alone from the cave, with a new sense of purpose and direction.
Next video: What if Elrond said Isildur had slipped and fell in?
It's funny I was just thinking about this question
Me too 😂
just another reason why people's criticisms of Tolkien's works are invalid, and his works are perhaps some of the best written by man along with the ancient classics of Beowulf, the Illiad, the Mabinogion, and the Tain Bo Cuailnge
You just produced the most brilliant post I've ever read. Um, I think you might be my soulmate.
You missed Sir Gawain and the Green Knight! Kudos for including Mabinogion!
Also maybe the eddas and the Kalevala
Celt of Canaan Esurix - Tolkien wanted to make up some mythological work, but he cant be what you imagine it to be as all the other works lasted hundreds or thousands of years. Tolkien's work is just a few decades old and does not have the timelessness. The only one in the last centuries that had such a power and longevity was Shakespeare, but even his works have many hundred year to survive. Dante's work and others come as well to mind, but surely not a few decade old writing that hasn't proven that it can survive centuries.
"DESTROY IT!"
"Okay"
*ploop*
"Alright, let's go grab some beers."
credits roll
Or - Mount Doom explodes, and Elrond and Isildur both die in the subsequent volcanic eruption. Unless the Eagles save them, of course...
@@timonsolus ofc focking eagles are big brain 😂
"What if Elrond Had Pushed Isildur into the Fires of Mount Doom?"
Elrod would had explained the reasons he had done it to Isildur, the fact he did it without consulting anyone and no one else was guilty but him.
And then he would had given himself up to Isildur's Heirs as prisonnier to them to punish him as they feel fit.
Remember the Sack of Doriath? It was way worse for Elves / Dwarves relation than anything Elrod could had done to Isildur to destroy the One Ring.
They distrusted and disliked each other but they never went full genocidal against each other.
Yey, someone finally used 'historical data' to analyse the possible outcome! I also thought that these 2 things completely undermine the theory presented in the video.
Us humans are dumber and their is no way he knew that humans would start a war
I agree. If a “greater evil” has to narratively come out of Elrond’s actions, it could be that Elrond’s murder of Isildur causes massive distrust and anger against the elves, making the men vulnerable to being deceived into worshipping Melkor and going against the Valar, so basically the Akallabeth.
I’m almost certain that if Elrond had intended to push Isildur the ring would corrupt his mind to preserve itself.
“Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him.”
-Haldir Fellowship of the Ring (book quote)
Great what if video, I particularly think you got Cirdan’s reaction down to a T. However I have to disagree on a few things.
Pretty sure the many kin slayings would have been more impactful to the Vala’s moods. Men die, that’s their gift. They aren’t born to live forever. The death of one, even by treachery would be nothing compared to massacre at alqualönde, or the sacking of Doriath. And one elf’s actions wouldn’t sour the entire race. Freedom and responsibility for your own actions is a major theme of good in LOTR.
I laughed so hard when I read the video title XD.
I believe the One Ring has an effect akin to drug addiction. Drug addicts know that their drug use is bad for them, and in most cases destroying their lives but they continue to use drugs anyway. It's not rational, or logical; the behaviors of addicts baffle everyone around them. Just like Isildur's decision not to destroy the One Ring was baffling to Elrond.
Isildur was addicted to the One Ring, he knew it was evil, he knew it should've been destroyed, but he just couldn't give it up. Much like a drug addict who can't stop using despite their family's insistence, Isildur couldn't throw the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom despite Elrond's insistence.
When I think of the One Ring in that way it makes sense why nobody could voluntarily destroy it. It even makes the One Ring all the more evil and scary to me too. It seems like something Sauron would do to insure the One Ring's survival if ever he lost it. And just like drug addiction, the One Ring will eventually destroy it's "owner" by abandoning them. Which is exactly what ended up happening to Isildur in the end.
This!!! If you watch how it affects each character that comes into contact with the One Ring, addiction is a perfect description. Gollum is a major "Exhibit A." As Smeagol, he starts off as a pleasant enough fellow, but his life becomes a shadow of what it once was. Exhibit B--The closer he gets to Mount Doom, Frodo begins to get crushed by this weight more and more, until he can't even recall the taste of food, nor the sound of water, nor the touch of grass. Addiction is a perfect metaphor.
@@MichaelDouglasBell Thanks for seeing it my way! I thought about this little theory of mine after watching that show Intervention. On the show there was a girl addicted to heroin and her before and after heroin photos were just about as dramatic a change as Gollum's. Also after all of the begging and threatening of her loved ones and her herself saying how she knew she would die if she didn't stop, she still left the drug treatment facility early (she only had like 9 days left) and she relapsed. The captioning at the end of the episode said that she overdosed and died. It was so sad and it just reminded me of the One Ring and what that did to all of it's "owners".
I dont know if Tolkien wrote it with drug addiction in mind but it really seems dead on to me. And like I said it makes the One Ring all the more scary and evil to me knowing that it could do that to you. I think that's much scarier than a curse or some vague black magic.
☼ pretty intense man. this is one of your best. watching them play out.
Excellent theory !
You put a lot of work into it.
Thankyou I was transported to an alternative timeline that was captivating, though sad.
I'm certain JRR himself considered this possible outcome.
Thanks again for your work.
Cheers mate
Whoa you took that an unexpected direction! Love the amount of lore knowledge you have man.
Really enjoyed it. I think J R. R. Tolkien would have approved of your take on this.
What a beautiful and sad alternate story. In the end, the power of Melkor cannot be denied.
I can't help but feel that at the moment Elrond would push Isildur to the mountain. The ring would fall from Isildur's hands and fall on the platfrom. There Elrond would pick it, and claim it as his own precious ring.
One of my favorite “what if’” so far. Well done 👏🏽👏🏽
Rewatched FOTR again yesterday.. had the same thought in my mind.. Sauron may not endure.. but a big clash between man and elves would be in its way
Unless the said he slipped
I see no problem with that. I hate elves.
Thankyou for this video/ theory. Brilliant. Bravo. Have been a Tolkien nut since the 70s and have pondered similar myself. Joyful to see someone give it a proper go. And what a go... can't fault your logic or insight at all, you convinced me! :) I loved the darkness... much more plausible and more engaging than dippy optimism.
Perfectly presented also.
I salute you, really enjoyed that.
Taking cue on Gandalf mercy on Smeagol, I can say that Isildur was meant to take the ring. All the death and sufferings that took place prior and during the War of The Rings was meant to happen. It's like a gardener trimming a tree. It seems cruel on the first glance, cutting all those leaf and branches. But those trimming are important for the growth of the tree.
Fantastic. Thoroughly enjoyable as always
Finally my question has been answered
This was Absolutely wonderful... You did a great job in every aspect
Isildur: "This is Madness!"
Elrond: "Madness?.... This Is Middle-Earth!" *Kicks Isildur to the pit of death!*
Oooh brilliant subject matter! Can't wait to watch this! 😃 ❤
A possible theory to explore: What if Smeagol had survived the destruction of the one ring.
Because hobbits can survive lava
Without The One Ring, he would soon die of old age. The End.
@Dani XS As far as I remember, Bilbo aged quite significantly over the years when he didn't have the Ring, but then the destruction of the Ring sped up the process much more. If the years when Bilbo had the Ring with him were just subtracted from his age, he'd be pretty young when he sailed West (something like 60-70 total? very young for a hobbit to be tired of life and dying). While the Ring did prevent normal aging and death, it did "wear out" the person who had it. Also, keep in mind that Bilbo very rarely used it, which was the reason why the negative effects of the Ring weren't too heavy on him. Smeagol, on the other hand, used it quite frequently and for a much longer time, plus he was much more reliant on it, so I think it's safe to assume that the Ring's destruction would be much more devastating to him than it was to Bilbo and Frodo. After all, Frodo only had it for a few years, Bilbo for more or less half of his life, while Smeagol had and used for more than 80% of his life, which is way longer than he would be able to live without it. Bilbo was very old and tired at that point, despite being at an age achievable (although barely) for hobbits.
How could he even survive
If Isildur had cast the ring into the fire then Smeagol would have never been affected. And would likely have led a somewhat normal life.
Addendum:
I genuinely appreciate that you actually pronounced the name Eärendil correctly!!
Despite the number of linguists attached to the movies, they managed to fuck up the pronunciation of his name, either not noticing or not caring that the two dots above the "a" is a diaresis. In short, this means that our narrator is pronouncing it correctly and everyone in the LOTR movies is not. If you think I'm being sarcastic, or that I'm wrong and the people from the movie are right, then I would ask you to look up the definition of "diaresis," particularly the part of it that reads:
"a sign (¨) placed over the second of two adjacent vowels to indicate that it is to be pronounced separately, as in the spellings naïve and coöperate."
"It's over, Isildur! I have the high ground!"
He should have done it and just say some orcs ambushed us
And one of them tripped Isildur lol
And the orcs just came out and pushed him right in. So we killed them for doing it for you soooooo, your welcome.
@@MenoftheWest he was ambushed by a man and his name is Eddy Gordo hailing from the land of Teken LMAO
"Some orcs and trols ambushed us, they were so many and cornered Isildur, so he jumped to the lava to destroy the ring and kill Sauron once and for all"
Fantastic!, I love this channel💕
Gosh these little what ifs are so much fun. Thank you!
Fantastic theory, and very much akin to scenarios that have happened at one time or another in real life throughout history.
I particularly liked how you conveyed the contrasting emotions of the valars
Ulmo (who naturally would have felt great sorrow and anger at what had transpired)
and Melkor who no doubt would have rejoiced over the fact that his actions ultimately set the stage for these chain of events to engulf arda in such misery.
I think your rendition of the "what if" in this theory is accurate. Tolkien would never have written such a story. First, his Traditional Catholic morality which underpins the LOTR would not have allowed Elrond to act in this manner. We cannot do a great evil with a good in mind. In other words, the end doesn't justify the means. Second, this is not how an epic is told. It was meant to be a long story of how heroes faced overwhelming odds, found help in places they never suspected to find it, and in the end triumphed despite the power of the foe and their own weaknesses. In this way the adventure is logically brought to a conclusion while throughout we learn to love the great characters Tolkien has brought to life for us. No one would have fallen in love with LOTR decades ago if all it entailed was a quick destruction of the Ring. Everyone who has fallen in love with it has wanted to the story go on, not to be shortened, not more tragic than it already is. Tolkien knew best.
He despised allegory as well as what he called weakly based allegory. He was reviving ancient english lore and merging ancient knowledge throughout the globe to help people remember and reunite as a collective species. Allll of his other books and letters prove this. Specially about his dreams.
@@Makkaru112 I agree with both of you. Yeah, Tolkien knew best and he was also trying to help the collective too; as all souls are part of that collective. His dreams and work also correlate to Carl Jung. Tolkien had a lot of knowledge about this stuff, especially archetypes. Becca Tarnas talks a lot about this, if you're interested here's a video about her explaining it czcams.com/video/l6oh14vfhlI/video.html
Also it wouldn't have happened due to the logic of Tolkien's Legendarium.
1. Elrond wouldn't be able to destroy the Ring because *he* would be susceptible to its influence. Remember, even Frodo, a hobbit - who are particularly resistant to the effects of the Ring, couldn't destroy it. Its doubtful Elrond could.
2. Eru Iluvatar would never let this happen. Eru is supposed to be the Christian God, and considering a Catholic perspective, would have allowed the events to proceed as they did, because God allows evil to exist so that greater and more numerous good can come about, that would not have existed otherwise.
And the intervention of Eru, directly and indirectly, throughout the story shows that. For example: Gandalf says Frodo was meant to have the ring, Eru allows the Valar to send the Istari, Eru revives Gandalf, Gandalf says Bilbo was meant to be the Hobbit who helped the dwarves and got the Ring, Eru causes Gollum to trip, Eru sinks Numenor - forcing the Faithful onto Middle Earth and thus helping to defeat Sauron the first time, etc.