Watching the Protests From Israel
Vložit
- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Ultimately, the Gaza war protests sweeping campuses are about influencing Israeli politics. The protesters want to use economic divestment, American pressure and policy, and a broad sense of international outrage to change the decisions being made by Israeli leaders.
So I wanted to know what it’s like to watch these protests from Israel. What are Israelis seeing? What do they make of them?
Ari Shavit is an Israeli journalist and the author of “My Promised Land (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) ,” the best book I’ve read about Israeli identity and history. “Israelis are seeing a different war than the one that Americans see,” he tells me. “You see one war film, horror film, and we see at home another war film.”
This is a conversation about trying to push divergent perspectives into relationship with each other: On the protests, on Israel, on Gaza, on Benjamin Netanyahu, on what it means to take societal trauma and fear seriously, on Jewish values, and more.
Mentioned:
“Building the Palestinian State with Salam Fayyad (www.nytimes.com/2024/02/09/op...) ” by The Ezra Klein Show
“To Save the Jewish Homeland (www.commentary.org/articles/m...) ” by Hannah Arendt
Book Recommendations:
Truman (www.simonandschuster.com/book...) by David McCullough
Parting the Waters (www.simonandschuster.com/book...) by Taylor Branch
Rosalind Franklin (www.harpercollins.com/product...) by Brenda Maddox
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon and Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Michelle Harris. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Lydia Polgreen, Dalit Shalom and Sonia Herrero.
He doesn’t see “Gandi-like marches, I don’t see MLK kind of demonstrations”.
Brother, MLK was accused of inciting hatred and violence in the 50s and 60s constantly, and (of course) it wasn’t true. He was deeply unpopular among most of the U.S. population and seen as a divisive figure. The FBI tried to destroy him as a messenger because they believed he was a domestic security threat- the most dangerous Black man in America, per the FBI’s infamous 1963 memo. Nobody saw Gandhi or MLK as great and enlightened during those movements. Social movements are messy.
I’m glad Ezra shit down this attempt to America-splain especially when he’s completely wrong lol. The way the media has handled the campus protests is absolutely embarrassing, the media essentially created the narrative entirely on their own. Morning Joe is notably terrible on this.
If you listen closely you can almost hear the subsonic whirring of the two most influential martyrs of the last century, spinning in their graves. Beware anyone selling ‘legit ways to dissent’ from outside the movement. Classic misdirection.
He was only unpopular after opposing the Vietnam war. Not because of his tactics. Get a grip
@@cameraman502 think you might be confusing him with Muhammad Ali homie. King was despised well before his stance on Vietnam, which he hesitated to take only because of how it could distract from how hated he was because of, you know, racism.
"The FBI tried to destroy him as a messenger"
Ah, I see you took a break from defending the FBI's misconduct in the present day.
Cool. Now do a "watching the protests from Gaza".
A report who tried that would be taking his life in his hands.
EXACTLY! Genocide is, objectively, bad. It is SO bad, in fact, that millions of people on every continent have erupted in compassionate outrage against it. Genocide is the worst thing human beings have ever conceived of to inflict upon one another. So bear that in mind every time you hear someone spewing unhinged B.S. IN FAVOR OF genocide criticizing the people who are speaking out AGAINST genocide, proclaiming that it is the anti-genocide people who are in the wrong. Anyone with an IQ over 60 can reason this one out to its obvious conclusion, I'm quite sure.
Such a good point!!!
They'd have to do it quickly as the pool of interviewees is decreasing by the hour.
Exactly bro that whole thing was bullsh*t
What two state solution you’re talking about with all those illegal settlements??
If they are indeed illegal, should "you" not take the issue to the ICJ? If "they" have not, what does it say to you?
There will be Jewish towns in Palestine. As in almost every country ❤✡️✊🏽
Please explain what law makes Israeli communities on Israeli governed land as Illegal?
Uti Possidetis Juris is the international law regarding emerging states and borders Applying this law in relation to Israel, results in Israel inheriting all of the land as it was the only state to emerge from British Mandate. The Palestinians chose war.
The changing demographics of Israel is missing from the conversation regarding Israel’s soul. The ultra orthodox population have magnitudes more children than any other community in Israel and as a result will pull Israeli politics more and more to the extreme right.
By and large the UltraOrthodox are not far right when it comes to security issues and are mostly concerned about narrow issues affecting their community.
Much of the orthodox Jewish population is currently on the correct side of history; leading the worldwide movement against Zionist terrorism along with Jewish Voice for Peace, Not In Our Name, and other Jewish-led organizations. In occupied Palestine (or the apartheid colony referred to as "Israel"), the orthodox Jews are made to pay a significant social and economic price for their opposition to their settler state's official policy of genocide and ethnic cleansing against its native population.
The whole conversation felt like deflection. Every time Shavit was asked a question, he ducked and moved to a new topic.
It is funny how Israel does not want to let go of their Holocaust trauma and does not miss any opportunity to claim victimhood, while desperately wants Palestinians to forget about how they were forced out of their home and persecuted ever since.
Reality: Most Israeli don’t care about Palestinians. Simply don’t care, don’t see them as people, they could kill them all, torture them, starve them, deny them medical care. They are completely indifferent.
Hate breeds hate:
I don’t doubt Palestinians feel the same about Israelis
That part.
Truth. This is one of my favorite podcasts but Ezra really dropped the ball over and over again on this episode. Particularly when he asked about how the settlements were a de facto rejection of the peace process and never got any acknowledgement that the issue had even been brought up, let alone got a reply. Maybe he was just having a very bad day.
I think an interesting point that was missed is Ari’s own words starting at 10:55 identify Zionism as, at least in part, a colonialist enterprise. This stands in contradiction to what he said just before at 8:50, where he rejects that idea. I wish Ezra had honed in on that point…
Hi ... Where would you like to start as a Beginning Point for the 2000+ years of chaos between the 3 Abrahamic faiths?
WHO CONTROLLED JERUSELEUM THE LONGEST
czcams.com/video/7GCXhKpoml0/video.html
ISRAEL … MALCOLM NANCE
PART 2 czcams.com/video/AkPqR-Vm2ss/video.html
CHRISTIANS IN ISRAEL
www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67422238
PASTORS ARE EXCITED ABOUT GAZA/BELIEVE IT OR NOT
czcams.com/video/8mQpCjxR3MI/video.html
Forget the Past and work towards a Great Global Renewal because 'never again' and 'from the river to the sea' must include ALL of Us because We Are All One Humanity.
Yes. That was understood. What I love about Ezra is that he lets a « gotcha » moment stand on its own merits instead of using it to dominate the interviewee. This way the discussion stays in a space of affinity and can build more understanding. We see so little of this in modern media, always looking to own a POV, and « own » the other person.
@@sophieoshaughnessy9469Sure, but erudite debates should never be about “gotchas“ to begin with. It’s about holding people to account when there are discontinuities in their logic. Letting that slip by without interrogating it further isn’t “building understanding,” it’s just lazy and letting some misbegotten sense of civility trample intellectual honesty and far more meaningful conversation.
@@sophieoshaughnessy9469 I don't necessarily see inquiring about that discrepancy as setting up some kind of rhetorical trap. I am really curious about how Avi would reconcile those opposing statements. I imagine most likely he might say his stance has changed or that he didn't mean to imply zionism is actively engaged in a colonial enterprise: only that it was a danger that Israel could slip into. But without Ezra asking the question, we'll never know.
I interpreted differently. The facts may not support his point, while other facts may, he's saying the colonialism that created the US, Canada, Australia etc, is not equivalent to what created Israel. Not denying the disempowerment and atrocities that the Palestinians suffered during this time, just don't think it's a "gotcha" moment.
Hoping for a permanent ceasefire that brings an end to the massacre of Palestinians and the hostages on both sides return home.
Thank you for this conversation.
23:07 No, we assume that the weak are vulnerable and the strong have a responsibility to use their strength appropriately. I do not think Palestine=weak=good guys, Israel=strong=bad guys.
I'm more than positive there are "villains" on both sides, just like there are "villains" at campus protests. I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with the way settler colonialist rhetoric has led to the deaths of almost 50k (losses to both sides are tragic) and countless stories of ongoing pain and suffering.
Yeah. I hate how words are put in the mouth of Pro-Gaza supporters. It’s not that we are against Isreal, or Isreal retaliating. We just expected Isreal to use its power to retaliate smarter instead of going all out without regard for the innocent and morphing themselves into the thing they claimed to be fighting - monsters.
The people with the riot gear have the power
The people with the power are those who are in the process of invading the US with their hateful ideology, while exerting sway over the US political party that is currently in power.
Riot gear, bombs, fighter planes, tanks, APCs, bulldozers, satellites, drones, missiles, computer networks, super-power allies… one side has literally all the power.
Question that needs to be seriously pondered and answered: How are terrorists created, and why would people ever support them?
Did you ask the same question about Al Queda. What credibility do you see in Isis?
The creation and the expansion of Israel as a "Jewish state" for the Jewish diaspora with little regard for the Palestinians who have occupied and shared this land for millennia is the heart of the matter. Without an equitable resolution to this basic tension there will be no peace.
OK, so what do you DO about it now? Do Israelis "self deport" themselves? To where? Are the 800,000 israelis who fled their homes (~70 years ago) in other middle east countries going to be welcomed back? There are almost 10 million in Israel now. There will never be a solution that all consider equitable. Especially so if you think your people (Palestinian or Israeli) have the inherent right to the land.
Many people (especially those who don't know much of the history of the region) speak as if the Israelis came and kicked out all the Palestinians and "stole" their land. This just is not accurate. To say that the Jews are living on Palestinian land presupposes the idea that certain ethnicities can claim rightful ownership of a territory to the exclusion of all others. In that case, most of the population of the United States don't belong where they currently live. That land belongs to "indiginous peoples". How would you "solve" that issue?
“The Palestinians” have not been around for millennia. They are Arab muslims, put on the land by the Ottoman empire.
Thank you for this. I felt his awful internal conflict. He seemed to not want to take on the role of the right wing Ultra Orthadox influence and Netanyahu’s complicity init. If he is conflicted, is it surprising that the rest of us are?
I understand your need to be gracious to your guests, but the difference in your tone in this discussion and the one you had with Amjad Iraqi is striking. He, a Palestinian journalist who lives in Israel, was a voice of reason and truth for his people, and you listened to some hard truths with courage, calm and open-mindedness. I'm surprised the Times even allowed you to have him on. That was 6 months ago, so maybe the paper is doubling down on its pro-Israel bias now that the barbarous and bloody attacks on Gaza that all the world can see, the ICC naming it a "plausible genocide" and the burgeoning student movement are threatening the Zionist perspective which has dominated US policy and public opinion for decades. One specific criticism of this podcast is your dismissal of student protesters, saying/implying that many of them are antisemitic, which isn't true, unless you are unable to distinguish the difference between antisemitism and antizionism. Groups are never completely homogeneous, but from what I've read and heard, the students have been mostly peaceful. It's police and counter-protesters who've been violent and endangered the protesters' safety, but uni administrations, politicians and press demonize them when they should be protecting them and their rights to free speech and assembly. And the students are not calling for death to Israel.There is evidence that the first use of the phrase, "from the river to the sea," was by Israelis, expressing their intention to have all the land, which their actions certainly attest to. Anyway, it can also mean freedom for Palestinians on their land, not necessarily to the exclusion of other people. Are you familiar with Simone Zimmerman, the young Jewish woman who co-founded If Not Now, which organized many pro-Palestine demos, and also helped create the film "Israelism"? What a brilliant voice of young Jews who are seeing through and beyond the Zionist narrative they grew up with. I do not deny that Hamas committed terrible acts on October 7 that should be condemned as war crimes, and that Israelis are understandably devastated by. But history did not begin on October 7th. Until Israelis take a deep, hard look at the way Palestinians live and have been living for decades under their illegal oppression and only a few miles away, instead of shutting their eyes and occasionally referring to the "Palestinian issue" with little regard that Palestinians are people, they will not be "safe."
Amjad Iraqi was dishonest. He just wants more Muslim states, then he will stop holding the Palestinian state to any standards once it is founded. He wants to undo this one single Jewish success, while endorsing every piece of land conquered by violent Muslims in the last centuries.
Fair enough. No one is watching the Israeli civilians… 14000 vs 33,0000… is why I struggle and there is a history of much larger loss in the holocaust. That is real.
This is a very disorienting interview -- and not in a good way. Ezra keeps confronting Ari with a view that directly opposes what Ari just said, and then Ari says, "I completely agree!" This does not seem to be an issue of subtlety, but rather of gas lighting -- including Ari gaslighting himself. For those of us looking from the outside, Israelis seem not only morally confused, but confused in a fundamentally cognitive manner about how they appear to the world and how they believe they can justify what they've been doing to the Palestinians for 75 years.
can you expand further on the "morally confused" point please? (yes, I'm Israeli)
@@yoavba5706
Many people around the world who previously supported Israel and are not anti-Semitic, including myself, are changing our minds as we watch Israel's continued slaughter of thousands of Palestinian women and children, the blocking of humanitarian aid to Palestinians, and online we see Israelis and supporters of Israel consistently laughing and mocking the suffering of Palestinians. I want safety for all Jews, but the ongoing actions of the state of Israel, and the disgusting behavior of many supporters of Israel, are making Jews less safe, in my view. I and many others I speak with are wondering, What has happened to the moral character of Israeli Jews?
Moral consistency means the desire for the safety of both Jews and Palestinians, an equal valuing of both Jewish and Palestinian lives, the consistent application of international law which acknowledges war crimes committed by both sides, the acknowledgement of historical and current wrongs done by all parties, and a clear-headed view of who has the most military power in the current conflict. Moral confusion involves valuing the lives of one group over another, ignoring violence done by one group while constantly highlighting the violence of another, glossing over historical wrongs done by the more powerful group to a less powerful one, blocking humanitarian aid, especially for starving children.
The actions of Israel's government and citizens show deep moral confusion.
@@yoavba5706 Many people around the world who previously supported Israel and are not anti-Semitic, including myself, are changing our minds as we watch Israel's continued killing of tens of thousands of Palestinian women and children, the blocking of humanitarian aid to Palestinians, and online we see Israelis, the IDF and supporters of Israel consistently laughing and mocking the suffering of Palestinians. I want safety for all Jews, but the ongoing actions of the state of Israel, and the terrible behavior of many supporters of Israel, are making Jews less safe, in my view. I and many others are wondering, What has happened to the moral character of Israeli Jews?
Moral consistency means the desire for the safety of both Jews and Palestinians, an equal valuing of both Jewish and Palestinian lives, the consistent application of international law which acknowledges war crimes committed by both sides, the acknowledgement of historical and current wrongs done by all parties, and a clear-headed view of who has the most military power in the current conflict. Moral confusion involves valuing the lives of one group over another, ignoring violence done by one group while constantly highlighting the violence of another, glossing over historical wrongs done by the more powerful group to a less powerful one, blocking humanitarian aid, especially for starving children.
@@yoavba5706 FYI, I've tried several times to post a reply, but the NYTimes / Ezra show keep pulling down my response. I don't believe I said anything highly controversial, but censorship is pretty strong right now in regards to any critiques of your country's policies.
I'll try posting parts of my reply:
Moral consistency means the desire for the safety of both Jews and Palestinians, an equal valuing of both Jewish and Palestinian lives, the consistent application of international law which acknowledges war crimes committed by both sides, the acknowledgement of historical and current wrongs done by all parties, and a clear-headed view of who has the most military power in the current conflict. Moral confusion involves valuing the lives of one group over another, ignoring violence done by one group while constantly highlighting the violence of another, glossing over historical wrongs done by the more powerful group to a less powerful one, blocking humanitarian aid, especially for starving children.
Something to note in this discussion. America's violent response in the wake of 9/11 was mentioned as a reason the protesters should be more understanding of Israel's response right now. But the majority of students right now are people who were either young children or possibly not even alive yet when 9/11 occured. They do not feel responsible for America's choices after 9/11 because they had no influence or part in that response. They do not have strong emotional memories of 9/11 or identify with any sort of pathos argument connected to it.
Many, possibly most, of these protesters would and do condemn America's actions after 9/11. Those who were adults when 9/11 happened and now protest and criticize Israel's response to 10/7 today are also people that were opposed to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Even though it failed they were people who disagreed with the American Government's response to 9/11 and protested it then. They are people from historically disenfranchised groups in the United States. They are immigrants who were not voters in the united states when the bush administration was in power.
So with all that in mind, even though the criticism of America's hypocrisy as a nation due to their reactions after 9/11 is justified on a governing level, it's also not something that will make many rethink their stances due to the fact that they were not a part of America's desire to invade and destroy anyone and everyone who may have had something to do the attacks. Most protesters will agree that America's response was terrible. They will condemn many of the United State's military actions as evil. There will not be a sense of "Look at the blood on our own hands before pointing the finger at others,". The retort will simply be that Israel should learn from our mistakes before they commit the same atrocities that, in the end, only make the situation worse.
Very disappointed Ezra let him slide by without fully answering the settlement question. He easily transitioned into a “the weak are not morally just” argument instead of taking ownership on how Israeli settlements are a huge obstacle to peace.
When Israel removed all of its settlements from Gaza in 2005, what happened? And when Arafat walked away from Camp David and his own Palestinian state, how did the Palestinians respond (with hundreds of suicide bombings, you'll remember, in the second intifada.) Perhaps the settlements are problematic, but they are not a barrier to peace. Not even close.
@@rachelkeane331 Gaza became an open air prison since 2005. with good and bad. but Israeli domination.
Arafa was crap. That is also why Israel funded the resistance(Hamas) against him.
Israel took more than their fair share and disregarded the human rights of the others.
Israel has ruled the region by the sword. A part is self-defense, but a part has been brutal colonialism like in Ireland.
How can settlement expansion not be the main barrier to peace when the main issue is about land? If israel wants to maintain a moral authority & democracy then it needs to stop the settlements. Why are settlement expansions the response to suicide bombings?
@@ducx23 hamas was supposed to be a government, not a terror cell, hamas existed since the 1980's. Arabs are the people of the sword, it is their symbol. To pretend that arabs have been peaceful - that is moronic.
This guy is pretty anti settlements, I think its just an erea of agreement
Wonderful episode
Anorher hostory started on 7 Oct. Sixty years of oppression is fine
Nope. History started 2000+ years ago
WHO CONTROLLED JERUSELEUM THE LONGEST
czcams.com/video/7GCXhKpoml0/video.html
ISRAEL … MALCOLM NANCE
PART 2 czcams.com/video/AkPqR-Vm2ss/video.html
'never again' and 'from the river to the sea' must include All Of US ... We Are All One Humanity
5:50 "The anti-Vietnam protestors never questioned the legitimacy of the US." I do know some people who say that with a straight face, but unless you are aware o radicals who wrote about Amerikkka, the Weather Underground, Mario Savio, the more controversial words of Martin Luther King, let alone Malcolm X, Bobby Seale, the American Indian movement or the brown berets I find it hard to believe this guy understands anything about student unrest in 1968, 2024, or at any point in the intervening half century. Questioning the legitimacy of the Washington's hegemony was very much the point of every radical chic academic from black power to the 1619 project to "Custer died for your sins" to "the shark and the sardines" to the way women's lib evolved from fighting the Patriarchy to fighting cisheteropatriarchy. I would say most of those attempts at delegitimization made by English-speakers were historically illiterate, but no more so than your guest.
At one point Ari talks about the lack of a viable centre-left in Israel. I actually question whether there is a viable centre-left in any of the 200+ countries in the world. Jeremy Corbyn was forced to step down, Gabriel Boric did not win his constitutional reform, Dershowitz is denouncing Obama and Biden as antisemites, and forget about Bernie Sanders. Jean Marie Le Pen's daughter is likely to rule in Paris, Kast's son in Santiago. In New York, Atlanta, Oxford, and Cambridge, Proud boys wearing "Pinochet did nothing wrong" t-shirts will help clear out Pro-Palestine encampments so that Muslims can be deported by the thousands back to Syria, Afghanistan, and Libya, while the ADL congratulates the Proud Boys for standing up to anti-semites who told Jews to "go back to Poland." Itamar Ben Gvir will give "Baruch Goldstein" branded lessons on ethnically cleansing arabs to the AfD or whoever most loudly denounces Muslim anti-semitism in Berlin.
The center-left option has been destroyed throughout NATO and América as effectively as when Kissinger authorized Pinochet to overthrow Allende. Meanwhile, in Afghanistan the Taliban control more territory than when George Bush's son invaded and Tel Aviv's rush to take advantage of "our September 11th" to invade Gaza will either end the same way, or with ethnic cleansing justified because creating 2 million refugees (minus however many hundreds of thousands end up in mass graves) is the only way to "prevent another October 7." Then Javier Millei and Jair Bolsonaro can give advice on proving that killings by the armed forces were greatly exagerrated.
All that remains are far left "anti-semites" who care more about 30,000 dead Palestinians than 1,0000 dead Israelis, far right patriots eager to learn how to get away with 30-fold (50-fold?, 88-fold?) vengeance in their own respective fatherlands, and authoritarians who pointed out one hundred years ago that having multi-party elections was a waste of everyone's time.
I found it very symptomatic to the whole argument of the interviewed that he elects Henry Truman, of all people, as one of his heroes. Literally the guy who dropped two freaking atomic bombs over Japan, only to scare the URSS.
It is very telling because one of his points is to kind "let the past in the past", which is exactly what is needed to admire the world order Truman was instrumental in shaping.
Very telling indeed.
Reading your post, I'd suggest that getting back to school may be the best step you'd ever do to educate yourself
Mr. Shavit talks about “ the tragedy of 1200 Israelis murdered”…. The IDF and the Netanyahu cabinet met at 3am on Oct. 7; and they decided to do nothing. They share the blame for those deaths with Hamas.
Can't let the Israelis be victims, can you? Goyisher kop.
Ezra, there is a very impressive animation of the growth of the Jewish kibbutz movement year by year by year, and parallel with this growth is the written history of the promises by the Israeli government. The settlers were ultimately untouchable, uncontrollable. No Israeli government could really be held accountable. Because of the way the government system is structured.
so change the structure. This point is basically an admission that the fundamental structure of the government needs to change.
@@americanexistentialist4756 That's not going to happen.. But I forsee the Saudi and US temporary coalition forcing Netanyahu ... forcing something to happen......what?
Great insights.
Ezra Klein, writing as a European, non-Jewish, pro-Palestinian, I take my hat off to you for judicially interrupting your erudite host , on several occasions, bringing him back to the essential focus of your observations and questions. And, despite his comparatively 'generous' acceptance of the truth/validity of your assessments, he is still suffering from the Israeli illusion of the essential morality of the Zionist project, i.e. that the suffering of the Jews in Europe, before and after the Holocaust, ultimately justified the suffering of the entire Palestinian people, then and now. BTW, I have made a very genuine effort to conjure up in my own imagination the trauma and shock which the Hamas slaughter of October 7th caused. Initially, that was overshadowed by what I knew was going to be the so very predictable response of the IDF to the atrocities. But even in the face of the daily unfolding of that cruel inevitability of that response, I believe I was still able to stand in the shoes, however marginally, of the average Israeli in the days following October 7th. And that easily explains the very justifiable desire for revenge on the part of the majority of the people. But a democratically elected government isn't charged with responding in populist, knee-jerk fashion to the desires of its citizens (well, 80% of them, I mean) but rather do what's ultimately beneficial for them on the medium and long term. I would argue, that Israel missed a golden opportunity to win massive popular support from a world justifiably horrified by the Hamas massacres. But it chose the route that perhaps Hamas was expecting them to, although even they, I'm guessing, hadn't expected the apocalyptic extent of the response. Ironically, Israel have just been offered another opportunity to show the superior morality it believes itself to posess, i.e. to not undertake a ground invasion of Rafa, but it seems as if it's going to gift Hamas the ultimate propaganda victory, regrettably. They're doing so of course because they believe that their only chance of survival is through military force. That has worked up to now but it isn't inevitability going to remain the reality. I have no wish to see the State of Israel erased between the river and the sea, but military might alone will not prevent that happening in the future. One last point, pointing up the weaknesses within the Palestinian administration (such as it is), I hate to tell you sounds very reminiscent of Imperial Britain using the excuse not to grant the power of self determination to its old colonies based on the old trope that those peoples were unable to govern themselves. It's not the remit of Israel to prevent Palestinians making their own mistakes (and I'm not referring here to the actions of Hamas). Also, the notion that Israel can hope to 'solve the Palestinian issue' by coopting the Gulf Arab states, is again self-delusional. That simply perpetuates the delegitimisation of Palestinians. Let Arab states be involved, for sure, but only the Palestinians can negotiate for their future. Please remain the voice of reason Ezra and continue to separate out the trees from this ever darkening wood.
You are so original.
Thank you
palestinians also brought on their own suffering time and time again, they are the sacrificial cow of the arab/muslim conquering umma idea. Which is the islamic colonial project.
My only issue with this take is you do have to take into account the actions of Hamas, because that's who they elected. The vast majority of self-determined people, even those previously under colonial rule or enslaved, have chosen some semblance of a normal government. The Palestinians did not.
@@alexdevcamp this is because their version of religion has a goal to murder jews as is written in their holy book. Additionally, they have a political religion whose goal is to establish a world under their religion. There is no other group quite like this in the world.
21:00 they gave away Gaza and left completely… and we had vicious murder and ongoing horror.
And hey I heard them celebrating with fireworks on 10/8 in East Jeruslam. So yeah the “terrible” settlements are super important bec they would have done October 7th 100s of times if not seeing Jews right next to their villages and they are therefore scared to attack. Very simple.
It always about me me. Have a heart over 30000 people are died.
Yeah well, in fairness, its not getting any worse for them.
Always play victim
What is shouted at 1:36? I can't understand it.
I couldn’t either.
It is AI generated. They couldn't find any good example of antisemitism.
@@Gkklein I think, if it was AI generated, I could understand it better.
"Go back to Poland"
@@gsdavis91 Thanks!
just came back to my damaged house in Sderot. Shavit is right about the fear. the hamas attack of oct 7 were in my neighborhood. 50 people were killed in my town. I cannot stop the nighmares, the involuntary visits w/ hostages playing in my mind. I've been a peace activist my whole life - but I understand my neighbors who are giving up. I don't understand the world's support for those who took the route of killing and kidnapping babies, or their indifference to my fear. and I know those kids protesting don't have a clue about how UNRWA has held the palestinians down all these years. I'll continue to do what I can for the understanding that can lead to peace.
thank you for this frank discussion.
You don’t understand the world’s support for those who took the route of killing and kidnapping babies? …are you saying you don’t understand why people support Israel? They’ve objectively done far more kidnapping, killing, and murder of babies in the last 7 months than has been visited on them in the last 7 decades. I agree with you, good sir. I do not understand how anyone would believe that kind of monstrosity would result in peace. Israel should stop their “might makes right” philosophy and make peace. Both within their occupied territories and their neighbors in the region.
@mieliav you can be assured that nobody is advocating baby harm here, but you are absolutely right about our indifference to your fear. Fear is the worst justification for war i can even imagine, if only because it seems really bad a reducing fear. When a man aks the world to take his feelings into account: be wary what follows.
People are dying now. and being bombed now.
The only path further is stopping that.
If i look at the situation of 6 October i can tell you it wasn't sustainable. and only Israel had almost absolute power back then, they didn't try to solve it.
The Israeli government's plan is not okay. Not then, not now. You can blame that evil attack now, but this is a century of tragedy and thousands of deaths.
People will respond violently when they are brutalized
It's not hard to understand why this happened when you see the conditions Gazans have been forced to live in due to the occupation controlling every calorie that enters the strip
I am truly sorry for your trauma, I can't imagine what you experienced
No matter who it is or what their cause, killing civilians is NEVER okay. Oct 7th was horrifying, and with all its horror, it still doesn't justify what Israel is doing in response
In truly understand the fear. But what you do with the fear is very important. And Israel has done exactly the worst thing with that fear.
A brilliant episode on a topic which is completely disheartening and almost hopeless
How was this brilliant? Name one aspect of its brilliance.
Well, it inspired @mrjob23 to leave about a dozen comments. Thats pretty brilliant.
The episode continued to convince me of the hopelessness
An excellent interview, unsettling and enlightening both. A masterful and thoughtful tension-holding balance.
I long for a future dialogue between two carefully chosen opposing voices, with Ezra moderating.
Israel absolutely has the right to defend itself, but worldwide observers also have the right to state their opinion if ‘defend’ appears to morph into vengeance and slaughter. The US is far more than an observer, and this is what pains many of us. We are caught in the terrible moral dilemma of supporting Israel’s right to peacefully be while financially supporting what appears to look more and more like cruel decimation of a people who also have the right to be. This has become too much to bear.
This comment is centrist brain rot on full display. Clamoring for a “tension-holding balance” between two erudite representatives, fighting in the ‘marketplace of ideas’ on podcasts for your entertainment as tens of thousands are slaughtered and millions are starved and scarred for life is the modern equivalent of watching gladiators kill slaves in the Colosseum. The misguided belief that there are two reasonable sides here that we must hear out while one annihilates the other is the kind of thinking that allows for atrocities of historical proportion to unfurl while good people are indifferent. This is the same behavior behind many historical atrocities. It’s an example of the banality of evil. Anything short of a call for immediate ceasefire is moral cowardice.
I can only assume Ezra’s audience suffers from a lack of education on the historical roots of this conflict if they are only now coming to the conclusion that Israel might be, “decim[ating] … a people who also have a right to be.” A history Ezra is not providing here. Go read Ilan Pappé. Read historians who’ve painstakingly documented the history. Go read Mattityahu Peled. Read the accounts of people who perpetrated the aggression. This is all very accessible and recent material.
The idea that anything happening now has “_become_ too much to bear” is bizarre. Israel has carried out the acts they openly stated they would carry out on October 8th. What do you think happens when you cut off water, food, electricity, and fuel to a population of 2 million people trapped in a prison they can’t escape? They die… plain and simple. Israeli leadership openly admitted their plan was annihilation of anyone remaining in Gaza from day one. They stated it was an entire population that was responsible, and therefore worthy of retribution. You can’t all of a sudden be disturbed by actions announced on day one and carried out for 7 straight months.
Clamoring for a “tension-holding balance” between two erudite representatives, fighting in the ‘marketplace of ideas’ on podcasts for your entertainment as tens of thousands are slaughtered and millions are starve and scarred for life is very messed up. The misguided belief that there are two reasonable sides here that we must hear out while one annihilates the other is the kind of thinking that allows for atrocities of historical proportion to unfurl while good people justify it with mental gymnastics and indifference. It’s an example of the banality of evil. Anything short of a call for immediate ceasefire is moral cowardice.
I can only assume Ezra’s audience suffers from a lack of education on the historical roots of this conflict if they are only now coming to the conclusion that Israel might be, “decim[ating] … a people who also have a right to be.” A history Ezra is not providing here. Go read Ilan Pappé. Read historians who’ve painstakingly documented the history. Go read Mattityahu Peled. Read the accounts of people who perpetrated the aggression. This is all very accessible and recent material.
The idea that anything happening now has “*become* too much to bear” is bizarre. Israel has carried out the acts they openly stated they would carry out on October 8th. What do you think happens when you cut off water, food, electricity, and fuel to a population of 2 million people trapped in a prison? They die… plain and simple. Israeli leadership openly admitted their plan was annihilation of anyone remaining in Gaza from day one. They’re not doing anything different fly now than they were 7 months ago.
@@mrjpb23 listen to Ezra’s opening monologue. ‘Holding the tension’ is a mature practice of weighing both positions; being willing to maintain a period of discomfort and a listening, open frame of mind, with the goal of bringing forth a pragmatic solution(s) to seemingly impossible predicaments. It’s best to keep limbic high jacking- emotional reactions - out of the process.
@@jennysteves7226 You’re displaying the exact kind of faux intellectualism I’m skewering-this idea both sides have an equally good argument and that being rational means taking what each says at face value. There’s nothing “mature” about letting this guest skid by on the numerous incongruities of his own logic and the reality of the situation at hand, as Ezra did here. Israel is committing grave crimes against humanity on a daily basis. More disturbing is the fact they announced their plan to do so from the start and America didn’t flinch in their support of it. Emotions serve an important part of the human experience. If you hear about the conditions in Gaza and you’re not emotional about it then you’re a monster. There’s nothing sophisticated or erudite about a lack of emotion.
@@mrjpb23gotta disagree with you homie, in a negotiation there is most definitely advantages ro leaving reflexive/emotional out of it: otherwise we might land on ‘if ____ , then a monster’ type statements or ‘i’m skewering’ type assessments that likely feel good but lack productivity in the same sense that labels protests as antisemitic. Hearing a lot of - youre agreeing with me, just not enough - and i read @jennysteves7226 as being sympathetic but wanting to encourage the dialogue. I’d worry more about anyone wanting to shut it down.
Your guest misses the mark. 5:48 -
"When America was in Vietnam, there were justified anti-war demonstrations all over. They never doubted the legitimacy of the United States."
The Vietnamese had no reason to care about the political structure of the North American continent. That was an entire world away, for them. All they wanted was to be left alone. This is not Vietnam. This is not a foreign intervention across 2 oceans. There is 0 valid or reasonable comparison.
When tensions between the US and the Native Americans flare up, especially in past centuries when the colonial project was fresher and the power balance between the two groups was less lopsided than it is now, the legitimacy of the US, as well as other colonial states was ABSOLUTELY a key point of contention. Native peoples very rarely see these states built on dispossession of ancestral land as legitimate. We simply live in a world where Native Americans no longer have the demographic power to outright reject occupation.
23:45 - 24:55 Your guest wants to live in "the post-war world order", while, due to his state, the Palestinians live in the 1800s. He talks about the threat China poses to as a global democracy as if he lives in London or Paris, while forgetting that the post-war order kicked off with the decolonization movement. Even if we disregard the right to return, the Occupied Palestinian Territories need their 1960s.
36:25 This colonialist brainwashed Liberal Zionist cosplaying as a Palestinian-lover. Let's take a poll of Palestinians real quick and see what they want liberation from more, Ha mas, or Israeli bombs dropping over their heads in Gaza and Israeli jackboots breaking into their homes, beating them up, arresting them en masse without charge for years on end in the West Bank. This man has drunk the kool-aid entirely.
His stance is that Israel is in a scary location (due to its own ideological and foundational underpinnings), so it must be coddled and Israeli society must be "hugged" rather than criticized by the world, in the hopes that parties who advocate some decency and humanity will increase their share of electoral power. But on the other hand, the Gazan government is to be smashed, and Palestine is to be ruled by outsiders. Palestinian minds are too feeble for good relations with others to have an edifying effect on Palestinian politics, only by living in a society that's structured by enlightened outside Arabs who have figured out how to be civilized, that Palestinians themselves can learn the same trick. Does he not notice that these approaches to dealing with hardline factions on each side of the wall are worlds apart from each other? Or does he notice, but he feels no cognitive dissonance because he perceives one people as superior to the other? One side gets democracy, the other side gets foreign jackboots. That approach has not worked for 75 years.
Ezra, you've done a good job pushing back on this guy's worldview. Thank you.
We understand our part and we want to help…and we know who we have been….
extract from Ari Shavit book “My Promised Land".... Most Zionists are poor; he is a gentleman of independent means. Most Zionists are secular, whereas he is a believer. For most Zionists of this time, Zionism is the only choice, but my great-grandfather chooses Zionism of his own free will. In the early 1890s, Herbert Bentwich makes up his mind that the Jews must settle again in their ancient homeland, Judea. This pilgrimage is unusual, too. It is the first such journey of upper-middle-class British Jews to the Land of Israel. This is why the founder of political Zionism, Theodor Herzl, attributes such importance to these twenty-one travelers. He expects Bentwich and his colleagues to write a comprehensive report about the Land. Herzl is especially interested in the inhabitants of Palestine and the prospects for colonizing it. He expects the report to be presented at the end of the summer to the first Zionist Congress that is to be held in Basel. But my great-grandfather is somewhat less ambitious. His Zionism, which preceded Herzl's, is essentially romantic. Yet he, too, was carried away by the English translation of Herzl's prophetic manifesto Der Judenstaat, or The State of the Jews. He personally invited Herzl to appear at his prestigious London club, and he was bowled over by the charisma of the visionary leader. Like Herzl, he believes that Jews must return to Palestine. But as the flat-bottomed steamer Oxus carves the black water of the Mediterranean, Bentwich is still an innocent. My great-grandfather does not wish to take a country and to establish a state; he wishes to face God.
The Palestinian death toll just since October 7th is 30x higher than the Israeli death toll. The further back in time you go, the worse that ratio gets. And I believe the further forward in time you go, the worse it gets.
It's not about numbers
But not watching the genocide from Israel?
It disgusts me that someone (like this guy 5 minutes in) can claim that nobody talked about the israelis killed in the terror attack at October 7th. We talked about for months. It is done. The genocide in Palestine is ongoing, and this we can do something about, unlike the victims already dead.
I'm sick of hearing defenders of Isreael always going back to the argument of "what about the terror attack" or holocaust defense. More than 30.000 people have been killed in Israels war in Gaza. Do the math of how much more people that is than the 1200 victims that were the catalyst for this. It is not comparable in any metric. NOTHING can justify what Israel, the government and military (Jews as a group are not to blame) is doing to the Palestinian people.
It was talked about it for maybe 24 hours, and then it was largely forgotten. Any empathy for the innocents who were slaughtered by Hamas drained away within about 48 hours, and within a week even news broadcasters in the West treated those deaths with such derision that they callously handwaved it away when interviewing Israeli gifts, even before Israel had mounted a ground incursion into Gaza.
There’s no genocide in Gaza. It’s a brutal and bloody war, but it’s not unusually bloody or brutal given the circumstances. It would have been a lot worse if the IDF hadn’t been as careful as they have been. You refer to 30,000 people - how many of those were civilians? Look it up, take whatever number you like, then recall that according to the UN in May 2022, the usual ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in any war is about 9:1. Compare the ratio and ask yourself if that’s really a ‘genocide.’
@@swarming1092 No. When people critizize Israels war efforts, they constantly say "October 7th was horrible, BUT."
This is besides the point, anyway.
Israel controls the Gaza strip. It's surrounded by walls that Israel controls. The Palestinian people are trapped there. There are more ways than gas chambers to genocide people.
Israel cuts of water, food and electricity. They tell civilians to move south, then bombs roads and bridges that lead the way there. The people make camp south, then they got bombed and told to move north.
It's 30,000 people in half a year. Israel is shooting fish in a barrel.
How many of the confirmed 30,000 people do you believe are Hamas fighters? People are innocent until proven guilty. Israel has time and time again failed to prove that the people they kill are militant fighters.
31:41
A bad episode of what is usually one of my favorite podcasts. After bringing up a point worth consideration or a good qu4estion he would let Ari say something like "I totally agree" (even though it seems that he really doesn't) and then talk about what he wanted to while avoiding actually addressing the issue. In particular it would have been great to hear his perspective on how the settlements were an impediment to the peace process and how it seems that the settlement activity makes it seem that talk of peace is blunted by the reality of the facts on the ground.
Israel needs security but it seems that they are shooting themselves in the foot. Having some responsible entity take over the territories and establish peaceful government is what is needed. But how to get there would be a great discussion.
Thank you NYTimes. As I have grown used to, always supporting Israel in every way.
I love how the question "Give me three books" can also be interpreted as "Sell me three books" and the implications can be a devastating choice.
I found it very symptomatic to the whole argument of the interviewed that he elects Henry Truman, of all people, as one of his heroes. Literally the guy who dropped two freaking atomic bombs over Japan, only to scare the URSS.
It is very telling because one of his points is to kind "let the past in the past", which is exactly what is needed to admire the world order Truman was instrumental in shaping.
Very telling indeed.
24:36 not my Jewish state. Stop fear mongering, Shavit
It is a state full of Jewish people, so it is everyone’s Jewish state. Denounce one of the Muslim or Christian or Chinese Buddhist states, you should do that
This was a great interview. Ezra did a nice job bringing back the questions and not letting him to completely change the conversation. Israel has become a villain state and it’s hard to sympathize with it even after their Oct 7th tragedy. The solution needs to start by Israelis acknowledging their own role they played in the past AND now and take responsibility for it.
Does he have a word for Palestinian self determination? No! He hedges, hums and haws and then says that the Palestinians are the tools of ‘dark forces’.
OK Ayatollah. We get it you're pro Hamas.
Omfg none of us are. We’re pro-Palestinian. Don’t be a dunce
Compare with 9/11 .. Mexico sheltering extremist..? Which part of Mexico USA s occupied
texas
Just be so hard listening to people denounce your country's genocide
The moral dilemma of the Israeli project in dealing with the indigenous people of Palestine lies in the ongoing conflict and displacement of Palestinians from their ancestral land. The Israeli government's policies and actions towards the Palestinians, such as the establishment of settlements in the West Bank and the continued occupation of Palestinian territory, have been criticized as unjust and oppressive.
On one hand, Israel argues for its right to exist as a Jewish state and ensure the security and protection of its citizens from threats posed by Palestinian groups. However, this has often come at the expense of the rights and well-being of the Palestinian people, who have faced discrimination, dispossession, and violence as a result of Israeli policies.
The moral dilemma stems from the question of how to reconcile the legitimate claims and rights of both Israelis and Palestinians while recognizing the historical, cultural, and political complexities of the conflict. Finding a just and equitable solution that respects the rights and dignity of both peoples is a fundamental challenge that requires a commitment to dialogue, empathy, and compromise from all parties involved.
"Ancestral"? King David was Palestiniian, right?
I can agree with all of that. The problem, of course, is getting to a "just and equitable solution" that is acceptable to both sides. Bibi and the right have done everything possible to create a physical context in which an equitable partition is impossible. Hamas has created a cultural and political structure in which a partition of any kind is impossible. That, and to drive a wedge between Israel and the Arab states, was the whole point of 8/7. So we have a situation in which the current leaders of both sides have deliberately scuttled what many see as the best and only chance at this just and equitable solution and are holding out for complete hegemony of palestine. I think many in the American left (and many commenters here) think some version of "Israel has all the power, therefore has the responsibility to break the deadlock, and they have the means by simply franchising the Palestinians" and they stop there. I think this is what Ezra means by having to chose between his cred (my word) as a liberal and his support of Israel. I've been listening to a lot if Israeli intellectuals lately, and the danger of this situation doesn't seem to be sinking in.
Thank you, Ezra and thank your guest for the honest discussion.
This is the FIRST time I've heard Ezra push back against the usual Israeli gaslight/hasbarah. Is there hope that he will cover TABOO subjects such as: The Haavara Agreement, Nakba, the American Jewish Conference during WWII, Apartheid, Settle Coloniasim, who owns the land, ...etc?
Very interesting and provocative podcast, as is usual.
To the point; there's nothing that Hamas has done to the Israelis on 7/10 that Israel has not visited upon Palestinians, they've been at it for decades! And yet, they seem particularly sensitive to their own medicine.
And, international law is clear on the rights of the occupier... But if anyone murders and kidnaps any group of people for whatever reason and expect their kind not to respond, that one, is imbibing something potent. Even if that group kills it's own in the hope of framing it on the attackers, as in this case.
Hamas knew Israel would respond viciously, they've been doing it for years, without provocation. No one can stop them from killing! It's become the mode of the occupier's survival. Hamas' calculus; whether the genocide stops today or continue until no one is left alive in Gaza, it is Israel that loses. Hamas cannot be destroyed.
Worth special mention, the mainstream media's willingness to regurgitate poorly conceived Israeli PR, is still a surprise. Its simplicity and lack of sophistication is truly special! They can and should all be labelled, LIARS! It certainly cannot be called journalism!
The US, meanwhile, has mollycoddled Israel to the point where it's a liability to US interests in the region and elsewhere. This brings me to one, Ronald Reagan, who when speaking to Israel's Menachem Begin, during fierce bombings of West Beirut in the 80's, called the assault, wait for it - "...a holocaust". Begin ceased bombing Beirut but protested Reagan's phrasing. He never apologised. In fact, he pressed on and said modern day Germans were being saddled with an act, they had no part in. No US leader can repeat these words today!
This Reagan episode, is arguably the last time a US leader was able to admonish Israel for its bloodthirst. Clinton's Camp David was a farce. In spite of its leverage, the US was decidedly on the side of Israel. Whilst, Israel was never interested in the formation of a Palestinian state. US foreign policy has been wholly scripted by AIPAC, since. And Hamas is an enduring consequence of this US impotence and Israel's serial inability to generate a cogent strategy for its aims.
The zealotry with which your guest celebrates the establishment of the Jewish state, to the exclusion of the violence and dispossession that came with it, was a side-winder. In this day and age; there are people who openly celebrate the dispossession and murder of others for their land, as an accomplishment?!!! Santa Maria, madre des Dios!
And then he goes on to manufacturer accounts of Jewish kindness in the midst of the Nakba..! Respectfully, this podcast has consistently had guests with more depth! Eloquence, not accord is the test.
Notwithstanding the evolving violence and dispossession, Palestinians did consent to the creation of the Israeli state on 80% of their land. And yet, Settlements continue to be built on their land - what are Palestinians to do? Continue to be raped and pretend as if they're enjoying it?!
The fact of their decades' long maiming, killing, dispossession, occupation, dehuminisation, imprisonment (of kids) without trial, they must bear with glee. This podcast and many others by mainstream media, desperately seek to frame 7/10 as the genesis of this horror. It is as cruel as it is untrue!
MY DREAM FOR THE RIVER TO THE SEA
Let the river flow freely, from its source to the sea,
Carrying love and peace, for all humanity to see.
No more killing, no more strife, let violence be ceased,
In this dream of mine, where love and peace are released.
In this lonely land, where voices are drowned by noise,
I stand with a plea, for harmony and joys.
For no man can be truly free, if bound by chains of fear,
And no woman can find solace, when danger is near.
The innocence of children should never be lost,
In a world crippled by violence, at such a high cost.
Oh, let the river to the sea become a sanctuary,
Where all can find refuge, from the burdens they carry.
Let not the chosen ones prevail, but let acceptance thrive,
So that humanity may flourish, and all may truly survive.
Jew or gentile, it matters not, for love knows no divide,
In this river to the sea, let grace and compassion abide.
No more malice, no more hate, let unity be our guide,
As we heal the wounds of the past, side by side.
Let the river to the sea become a symbol of hope,
A place where all souls can find solace to cope.
So, my friends, let us dream together of a brighter day,
Where love and peace unite, and hatred will decay.
In the river to the sea, let grace and mercy be the key,
For in this dream, humanity thrives in harmony.
The only way to achieve that is do dissolve the Israeli government and created a secular democratic state for all who happen to live there, with equal rights for all. You support that?
@@mrjpb23youre livin in denial and suppressing rage brother. ‘Theres only one way’ thinking is why we find ourselves where we currently do. You’d better hope not, we’d all better hope not. We amuricans dream of a secular democracy too - perhaps they’ll have more luck with it in that neck of the woods;)
@@mrjpb23 you did not listen one bit. There is racism when one does not believe jews have right to their own state and their own self determination. How islamist of you.
Message to Palestinians - Israel is here to stay. Message to Israelis - Pay for or give back the land stolen in 1948.
Yap Yap Yap
Shavit seems obsessed with Israeli victimhood. Supporters of Apartheid also cited Boer victimhood using the example of Boer concentration camps during the 1899-1902 war.
"How can you totally attack the right of a homeless people to have a home" ? I wonder if you are ok to let homeless people squat your own apartment. I consider myself liberal, but i'm not ok with that, sorry.
EK framed the issue unhelpfully right at the top: The protests are in no substantial way directed at dialectic with Israel; they demand action to coerce Israel. As they should so many pretty pleases later. Everything after that poor framing of the topic is largely a waste of time (though I enjoyed him setting the record straight on the nature of Ametican anti-war protests in history).
BREAKDOWN OF THE GUEST'S ARGUMENTS:
Statement: "People are antisemetic because they disagree with Isreal's right to exists".
Debunk: There's a difference between critizizing Isreal the state and being hateful towards Jews.
S: "People didn't say that France or America don't have a right to exist when they went to war in foreign contries."
D: These contries are not ethnostates, which Isreal, by definition, is. America does not have the right to be a only "white Christian nation," Israel does not have the right to be a only Jewish state.
S: "How can you call Isreal colonizers when we were prosecuted for most of Europe's history?" (at 9:00)
D: Past crimes against you do not allow you to do crimes in the present or future.
D: Israel is literally colonizing the land areas, throwing out Palestinians who have the right to be there. Look up a map of Palestine area loss, against the international agreement that founded Israel.
D: You can have a home. You cannot have an ethnostate.
S: "Everyone has forgotton about October 7th. Israelis are traumatized."
D: No. Noone has forgotten, and people constantly disavow and say it before anything else when they are about to critizie Isreal's war effort.
D: Sure, Isrealis are traumatized. That's bad. But so are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza, that Israel is right now genoziding. 1200 Isreaelis to +30.000 Palestinians. Who has more trauma? It's not a competition by the way. There are more Palestinians who are fearful, injured and killed than on October 7th in every meassure. There's now famine in Palestine, whereas live in Israel goes on almost perfect normally.
S: "It's an ongoing 9/11."
D: WTF? Are you talking about Holocaust? Because that is still in the past, and has nothing to do with your present actions. Besides, Holocaust was comitted by Germany, not Palestinians.
S: "Israel tried peace, but the Palestinians just didn't want to."
D: Thankfully, the host debunks this nicely at 20:00. Sure, Israel have officially tried for peace, but when they unofficially keep forcing out Palestinians of their homes and build settlements on Palestinian land, you are not sticking to the rules of the peace agreements.
S: "You cannot assume the weak is morally right and the strong is wrong. It's a distortion. Israel is not that strong.
D: Noone is doing this. People say Israel is in the wrong because they use disproportionate force and punishment and use collective punishment against civilians. Israel is far stronger than Palestine, who don't even have a military. There's Hamas, a terrorist organisation, not the IDF, a professional military with funding from the USA.
S: "Other nations are threatening everything we believe in."
D: Tell me what it is you believe in. If the answer is a Jewish ethnostate, where you have the "right" to remove non-Jewish people or force them to follow Jewish laws and way of life, then I have no sympathy for your cause. Ethnostates require genocides to exist. Do I have to make it clear that genocide is wrong?
S: "Israel is a scared nation." (30:00)
D: Poor you. That does not give you the right to murder civilians. What is happening in Gaza is not safety procautions, it's revenge.
S: "Mr. Sinuoir (I don't know how it's spelled, sorry) (30:30) is an evil genius who forced Israel to choose between two bad choices."
D: No. People and nations are responsible for their own actions. That man did not force you to do anything.
S: "We are fighting Hamas, not Palestinians."
D: Then explain how 30.000 and more and counting still are dead in Gaza. Are they all Hamas? Of course not.
S: "This war is about feelings; humiliation, anger and fear. This is about fear."
D: Yes. Yes, I agree. Israel fears Palestine, so they try to eradicate them.
S: "...Now we have tunnels."
D: Friendly reminder that Israel built many of those tunnels, among others the one under al-Shifa Hospital.
S: "When people deny Jewish people their right to self-determination, that is anti-semitism."
D: Define self-determination then. If that includes the right to a Jewish state free from other religions or ethnitities, then no, it does not have that right.
S: "If you want to critizie Israel, take a universal standard."
D: I do. Ethostates are wrong, no matter which people try to create one. Murdering civilians or being careless with ther lives is reprehensible. Collective punishment in war is wrong. All people, regardless of race, ethnicity or belief has a right to a dignified life and to keep their beliefs as long as it does not infringe on others.
S: "We are in a battle for Israel's soul."
D: Agree. Don't fight it against the Palestinian people, but fight it within your own nation.
My god Ezra please read this comment lol well put. Seriously Israel has fucked up so bad that really they can’t defend the majority of their actions in recent years, it’s embarrassing. And these are good faith arguments from a center left person. Imagine rightwing arguments.
This is excellent!
Thank you for this. It hurts when people don’t understand this position of peace and not revenge, and even may see those against the genocide in Gaza as the enemy. Open your eyes
I wish Ezra would read this comment and show it to the guest
Don't fight it against the Palestinian people??
October 7th massacre was BEGGING the IDF to re-enter Gaza and it worked. Taking the initiative against IL and then complaining about the consequences as usual.
I'm 38 minutes in. Still very interesting and useful. But, the voices of the US university protestors, and Palestinians, and an indeterminate, disparate global constituency; are being distorted by the two thinkers and speakers, Ezra and Ari. Not distorted completely, but distorted to a degree that their respective existential viewpoints are obliterated.
Question often asked, is; "does Israel have the right to exist", "does Israel have the right to defend itself". The two speakers move nimbly around answers to these questions. However, the questions may now need to be rephrased, perhaps to: what are the consequences of Israel existing; what are the consequences of Israel defending itself.
Perhaps what we need to address and conceptualise and process, are the consequences of Israel existing and defending itself. Where these consequences may consist in Israel becoming the "villain" Ezra refers to. What then not Just Israel and Jews and the Middle East region, but an effect had on the whole global human world.
*Ezra makes an overall decent point that suggests Israel has gone too far* Ari: "I couldn't agree more. Having said that, "
Guest contradicts himself about emirates don’t look at past and are modern but keep crying about holocaust.
Zionism handled it's own contradiction? What an airhead
Ezra, although this type of information is useful, I think this is a misreading of the intents of the campus protests. We are playing the long term. We do not expect that this will be quick, easy, that we are attempting to change minds in the here and now. BDS is a tool that will take at minimum 15 years to have decisive results towards the direction of a just and sustainable settlement.
In the South African case, which is the model we base this approach on, the boycott movement was founded in 1959, and achieved its objective in 1994 - a two-generation, 35 year long project that built momentum slowly, until it eventually became the consensus in more and more institutions, then societies, then governments, and THEN had a decisive impact. During that span of time, South Africa fought 3 international wars, 2 of which produced the independence of Zimbabwe and Namibia. White South African public opinion was such that the state could sustain those wars, and that was not a shock to the movement.
Although it would be nice, we are not taking these actions to change Israeli public opinion right now. We are aiming to broaden the position that Israel is a pariah state, and thereby severing more and more of its international business, government-to-government, and institutional / educational / technological ties. We are seeking to put Israeli society in a position where the only way to be wealthy and prosperous, is to be just and human. We are not expecting the internal Israeli outlook to change, until this position has been reached.
On the other hand, changing US politics is important - any decrease in military aid to Israel, is lives saved, and a weaker position with regards to the ability of Israel to safely fight wars. Bombs and planes that the IOF does not have, means that undertaking operations means putting soldiers' lives at risk, which means more caution, and fewer operations or outright deterrence.
Ezra, when he doesn’t answer your relevant questions, tell him he didn’t and ask him again. I needed to know his answers and I came away not convinced that the Israelis are on an incredibly wrong, racist and genocidal trajectory. I’m seriously trying in earnest to understand the Israeli point of view.
More of the shameful reporting we've come to expect from Ezra & the NYT on this issue.
💯
Yet you still come here to listen, or pretend to. Interesting…
There’s something really ironic when this fellow talks about contradictions in other people’s arguments:
- he says that morality is a inseparable component of Israel
- and he says that Israel had a moral right to nuke Germany
No contradiction there boys and girls….
he said .. 'once the hostages are back' .. well how does he propose to get them back and not move into rafah to put pressure on the thugs ?? they will only make a deal when they are faced with extinction .. not very smart ..
Not true. Israel is an occupying power. No one could escape from this. You can not compare the presence of Israeli Project with well established European history. Even within the Israeli law and society now, there is a differentiation between black or Yemeni Jews and Jews coming from Europe.
there is no law that distinguishes between different Jewish backgrounds, there are precedencies (like every other place on earth) but the law is the same for everyone.
Which law?
@@aOneaTwoAndYouKnowWhatToDo Israeli law.
you mentioned israeli *law* and society
@@jordantal3967 the question was Mahmud here. Which Israeli law makes this differentiation he claims.
another NYT piece that primes you with extreme bias and fails to actually ever properly tell the other side of the story
Palestine was a colony even before the British under the Ottomans. I think that has some thing to do about their weakness in fighting back in the beginning
There is no Separation between the people and the State in Israel. Both are united in hating Palestinians, the native inhabitants of the Holy Land.
The Jews were there first. Arabs colonized the land. They are now upset that they have been decolonised, because Islam is premised upon an arrogant supercessionism which has always regarded Jews and Christians as Dhimmis. That the Muslim hordes cannot destroy the Jews, no matter how hard they try, is an ongoing psychological trauma for Muslims because in their minds it shows just how pathetically weak Islam is. Israel’s very exist is perceived by Muslims as the ultimate humiliation, to which I say: Good, go cry about it. Go cry also about the Indian Hindus toppling your colonial Mosques built on top of the holiest of Hindu sites and decolonizing their country from hundreds of years of Muslim oppression and reclaiming their indigenous culture.
Did you go to Israel and talked with israelis or are you just spewing your own hatred?
Uninformed and unhelpful position. I am Israeli and 100% opposed to my current government And also do not find this guest reflecting what I think.
HATE SPEACH KILLS
KISS HATE SPEACH
Same old leftist dribble. Boring