Surviving a Week with "TOXIC" Competitive Warhammer Players...
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- Last week I attended one of the BIGGEST tournaments in the Warhammer calendar, the AOS World's Team Championship!
But I wasn't there to play games...
I always hear stories about 'that guy' in relation to people who play Warhammer competitively and, as someone who has only played 'Casual' games I was intrigued at how this kind of event would look when over 230+ competitive players from around the world come together to play their favourite game with the intention of becoming the 'best team in the world'
This video is kind of a 'Vibe check' both from you guys who sent me your thoughts an opinions on the subject AND the people at the event who were being their authentic selves and I hope that everyone enjoys it and watches it with an open mind and heart :)
CHAPTERS!
00:00 - Intro
02:22 - What IS AoS Worlds?
03:29 - LETS GO!!
06:21 - 'Competitve players dont paint...'
09:06 - 'Competitve players arent fun...'
12:23 - 'Why I Hate Competitve Players...'
18:24 - 'Competitve players are bad losers...'
21:00 - Outro!
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I really want to know what YOU think about this video and the idea of 'competitive' Warhammer and its playerbase so feel free to drop your opinions and experiences in the comment section!
Just remember to keep it nice and respectful pls :3
I got Nate baited. Not one Nate video!!
@@TheHonestWargamer THERES LITERALLY A CLIP IN THIS VIDEO OF YOU AND NATE TOGETHER
whats wrong with fat guys with beards?
@@holmsey555 nothin' i love em
Even though I want to play WH competitively. I also really want to go to a tourny, in cosplay, and employ my bold, innovative, wave after wave strat with an Astra Militarum army.
I'll show that Carnifex whose boss 😉
The competitive scene itself has always been different from the problem players. That guy doesn’t want high level competition, he wants to curb stomp someone.
Completely agree
And a lot of them also tend to avoid the higher level competitive parts...they don't want to actually have closer games. Put two of them up against each other and they get frustrated and end up in fights.
One of the places that I used to play had a trio that was more of "That Fucking Guy" because they knew that they could get away with anything if it wasn't an official thing (and even there it was iffy) because either they (or their parents) would keep dumping massive amounts into purchases of the newest things so the store owner didn't care what they did as long as they kept buying. The owner also just didn't give a crap about the fantasy/scifi gaming side of things, he was pretty much a historical button counter for US Civil War stuff, and the trio had a LONG list of things that had a lot of people hating them, but they'd be allowed into anything that was open because they were open entry...one of it was what caused a lot of the tournament organizers to ban PDF rulebooks and then online rules for wargaming since they'd gotten caught on several occasions making edits to their books (and the owner liked the idea of people being forced to buy more from him which got that restriction allowed) and it took forever to get that let up on with other things in there (Some of the games I ran needed either printed parts or just online...with Ronin being one of them due to people wanting the special characters and buntai from web enhancements that Osprey put out, same thing with Of Gods and Mortals).
One got a ban for a while when he still got hammered by someone and threw a fit, though the ban got lifted a month later. Then the owner semi-retired and his nephew took over running the store and all three were given the boot for their crap more recently.
What I have found is that you're more likely to run into the toxic competitive players at your local game store or at the little local events. These are usually people that don't play enough to develop their skills but still expect to do well at the event and when that doesn't happen the toxicity can appear. At your bigger events you generally have a more dedicated, skilled collection of players. People that play enough games to develope thier skill at the game have to be nice or they won't be able to get opponents to agree to play practive games with them.
This carries a lot of truth.
Nah, its just a matter of personality. Some people are bad losers and others just dont care. Ive met every kind of player: The good toxic that cant handle defeat and ruins the mood. The good chill that will discuss over tactics after the defeat and congratulate you on your list. The toxic bad who blames every aspect of his life on luck. The chill bad who is just there for shits and giggles and everyone wants to be paired with to climb the ladder. Its really not that profound.
@@neruba2173 Yeah, it's probably a bit of both.
Obviously. That "toxic" kind of player is the kind who can't handle losing. They define their self-worth via their success in games, so they're afraid to visit a tournament full of pros because it is likely they'll lose matches. So they keep doing what they're doing instead, looking for "easy prey" within their local scene.
And it's funny, I've seen this countless times... when there's a new player they are eager to play a match but as soon as that person has learned a few lessons and is on a level where they could be a threat and win a match the "toxic" player starts looking for other gaming partners.
I don't get these people. I don't like them. And I have a hard time talking about them without using any harsh words, so I'll stop here.
I also think this is more a matter of personality. A buddy of mine just went to the biggest 40k tournament here in Germany, it was only his second tournament ever and he only had good things to say. Everyone was very respectful and patient with him although he had to look a lot of things up and he also played against some newcomers himself and there were no problems. They were a little nervous, that's it. I think people make bigger tournaments out to be this super competetive life or death situation, but in an event with 500+ players, the large majority of players are just there for the funsies and often bring some really crazy lists that you wouldn't expect in a competetive environment.
I love that the sassy nurgling is a bit of a mascot for your channel
He is me and I am him
@@roguehobbies I felt bad killing him in Boltgun. I want the expansion/sequel where we play as Death Guard and he is our sidekick.
@@roguehobbies The human girl in the screen is like a Vtuber model, the voice is coming out of the sassy nurgling themselves
I've gotta say every "competitive" game of warhammer I've played has been with people locally but every person i play is kind patient and helpful and good natured. I think the toxicity comes from one off weird people who take every game as a life or death situation
I have to agree unfortunately, it varies across communities, one of the mexican top players is as toxic as it gets
@@TheGoGoat91yeah, once any community reaches a certain size it will include problematic people.
I've been pleasantly surprised with the fun and fairness of skilled competitive players.
Like many communities, it seems like the worst people are the ones who want to find self validation in victory, but lack the skill to win fairly.
@@christophersteeves9435 i also have to agree my son use to compete but a relaxing chilled game when others started joining in they made it more tense which put him of sadly.
In my experience, those sorts of people are often also shunned hard.
I remember back in uni in the early 2000's and played regularly with my Scottish, Irish and Dutch mates. We even tolerated kids trying to get involved.
It was fine until a bunch of Americans came and actually took the game seriously :(
I love that Blood Bowl has barely changed in 30 years, because it still has that charming Oldhammer vibe of everything being so utterly chaotic that "the meta" didn't matter as much - your overpowered star player is just as likely as everyone else to roll double skulls and break his neck, making both players laugh.
It's one reason i miss the bonkers maximalism of old 40k.
Yeah, I totally agree.
Necromunda first edition for me and the lads on games and curry night.
@@vattmann1387 God Necromunda 1e is such joyous, flavour-drenched chaos.
@@iainawatson I always thought the mini's were gorgeous in a quirky way and use them as conscripts/ hive militia for my Steel Legion army in 40k.
I only play with friends so they know it "represents" a lasgun which is nice :)
I just really like the character of the models!
But competitive Blood Bowl is just like AoS and 40k, except the teams are rebalanced by bad teams having more skills and/or gold, so its just as try hard, i think there were over 2200 people in Alicante for the 2023 Championship last year
But if you go to a national Championship or a smaller tournament then 50% of the people are fun havers and the other 50% saying stuff like "this is a Danish tournament so i take wrestle over tacke because the Danish meta is bash heavy, but in Germany next week I will take tackle"
Fun fact: Danish team was sponsored by the Danish hiphop/rap group Suspekt, when they found out we had a national team...
❤❤❤
:O
I've played tournament 40k for about 15 years and I can count the number of bad experiences on one hand.
I have played "that guy" on a handful of occassions but its incredibly rare. If you are thinking of playing competitive events please don't be put off by the idea of running into an arse. The community is incredibly supportive and welcoming these days.
A topic handled with great care, balance, nuance, and insights, very well done! Thanks for shedding a positive light on our favorite part of the Warhammer hobby and starting a great discussion in the comments!
I've now played in over 70 competitive games at tournaments, and of those games only one was a negative experience. Its the incredible people I meet and friendships I've forged that keeps me coming back
An important factor in a competitive event is the fact that the players all know where they stand with regard to what's expected. Everyone is playing hardball, and so there's less chance of an awkward mismatch.
I'm not a particularly competitive player but at tournaments, if I'm getting my ass handed to me, I know why and fully expected it.
However, some of my worst games have been games where there's a difference of opinion on what constitutes 'fluffy', 'friendly' or 'narrative'.
Competitive types have the benefit of clarity.
Another great part of multi round tournaments is that as the rounds go on, you're more and more likely to end up in an even matchup.
If you lose round 1, round two will be against someone else that lost round 1, and so on.
@@hooliganblack832 'I'm a fluffy player' means you either get a fluffy player or a guy who's shocked that you expected them to know the rules and is offended by you killing their units.
Like pubstomping is a real problem but the GW main games have just as big an issue with people turning up making no effort to engage with the game then calling their opponent a try hard.
That’s mainly what I’m wondering. What is a narrative game? When I want that, I’ll play Rogue Trader.
Big agree, my worst games of 40k have been against players who are insistent on their identity as a casual or narrative player, where I’ve won the game just because they basically did not seem to try to win at all, and then get salty over losing. Not all casual/narrative players are like this of course, but there is a specific type where it feels like you have to intentionally avoid anything that might seem strong to avoid offending them. I would say the descriptor “friendly” is tied entirely to the players and not at all to the type of play style
The 40K WTC (World Team Championship) scene is exactly the same! I’ve been to both! Not only does the Teams format bring people together but it also encourages community. 🎉
WTC is the worst, it’s the referees they have and their mentality, everyone else is wrong and I’m right. Creating toxic environment from the start 😂 not good. Teams events are amazing, going with 4 or 5 of your best mates to roll some dice’s on a weekend for 5 rounds? Fun af, and the toxicity of competitive 40K has been getting better, vanguard tactics is a big promoter of good sportsmanship in the warhammer 40K space and its actually made a difference. Went to my first tournament over the weekend and everything went by very well, you get into disagreements but talking through it with your opponent into a respectful manner where you come to an agreement is the best and everyone wins
@@littlefoot4417 the ref team are fair and explain reasoning at the event. I know as I was there last year in person.
The community as a whole is pushing to correct the reputation that a small minority established!
Glad to hear your first event was a success and yes, team Warhammer is the best!
@@scr1vo my experience different recently, may just be online lol
@@scr1vo trying to say Tiger sharks can’t shoot turn 2 is their ruling after faq last week
@@littlefoot4417 I don't agree with a lot of the WTC's rulings and scoring system, but I think you're painting a totally disingenuous picture of them, and 40k events as a whole.
This was the most positive video I've seen in a while. My jaws hurt from smiling!
The only kind of pain I'm okay with inflicting 😊👍
I think you hit the nail on the head when saying if people are on the same page with what type of game they are playing its fun. Communication is key which not every person has sadly. Good news is that you only need to play "that guy" once and then politely move on. they tend to get weeded out of gaming groups naturally.
I used to go to the same GW you used to go to with that lovely ork army you had. Lots of the sweaty 40k players in that shop never actually went to proper events because they'd get called out on their bullshit.
In our LGS (which I only really visited to play Magic at FNM) the 40k people used to be mostly man-children back in the days while the smaller Warhammer Fantasy crowd was usually pretty chill and stuck to themselves. But, of course, that can easily change from day to day and event to event/store to store.
Only been playing 40k for about 7 months now at my local Warhammer store. There's one guy there who's "competitive" and will go around and comment and "coach" other people's games, but the rest of us play for fun, testing out new armies/detachments/units/etc, to learn and or own personal narratives. The atmosphere is always positive and jovial, and we cheer our opponents on and "ugh" of they have bad rolls and whatnot. But we still all play to win and try to get our "revenge" or redemption the following week after a loss to grow as players and continue to build that camaraderie.
I used to play a lot of tournaments back in the day, and for the vast vast majority, the random people I got matched up with were excellent people.
My favorite part of conventions and competitions is that feeling I get of "These are my people." Best feeling in the world.
Same! I go to a tourny once a year, and it feels amazing to be in a large room with a bunch of people who share your favourite hobby, and are passionate and friendly about it too.
with all the positivity of this video, i wish you mentioned that the event sported another award besides top3 and best paint, and its best sportsmanship as well :) competetive play isnt only winning at all costs!
They also had a best dressed award, I defo should have mentioned that
@@roguehobbiesAn entire video, with viewer voting for the winners, please
I think one important factor of the vibe at a professional event like this is that everyone involved is completely 'fluent' in the game system
In short, they don't have to spend as much time and energy mulling over rules, so they actually have 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦 space for banter and being silly
Hey Louise! Great video! I loved the fact you were shining a light on the real competitive scene that we have in Warhammer. A lot of people have the common misconceptions that you brought up on stream and over the last 5 years that I've been streaming I've done my best to change their minds and convince people to go and play in events.
I've been playing 40k competitively since the beginning of 8th edition, and it's been one of the best things that I've ever done. I've got more friends that I've made at tournaments than anything else, travelled all over the world to play, and in more recent years to referee.
I'm the Head Referee of the 40k World Team Championship and unless you really follow the competitive scene you'll have no idea how many people come to the event with gifts for their opponents, like local food and drink - last year the Danes bought Rum that was distilled in Denmark with proceeds from its sale going to supporting the team and helping finance their trip, and it's great to see the AoS team getting the same love from their community. You wont see the friendships that are made and maintained over distances of thousands of miles from players of entirely different backgrounds. The traditions of swapping shirts and dice with the other teams that you're playing against. The late night parties, and especially the one at the end of the teams event are literally full of nerds all hugging each other and wishing each other well. The spirit of Healthy competition is amazing and the amount of tears that are shed at the awards ceremony for people that are happy to see others succeed is just a beautiful thing.
Even people that hate the idea of competitive 40k would be swayed by the emotion in that room at that time.
Thanks so much for making this video, I really hope it encourages more people to come and play at events and to experience the things that I've been able to.
I play a lot of competitive 40K and the vibes are often similar! I have seen some AMAZING armies at events, and made great friends during some close games. Always fun to play in an all-day or multi-day event.
I think you make a really good point about how playing in a tournament kinda irons out the wrinkles of mismatch games you can experience just showing up to an LGS. That type of "pubstomp" player mentality just doesn't work in a tournament setting. I'm a tournament organizer in the PNW in the US, and tournaments are such an incredible way to bring the community together and get to see all my friends
This is a great point. Makes it hard too because so many people cop a bad pubstomp experience or three and then avoid tournaments entirely after that. They never see the other side of the competitive culture.
Also, some of the most fun games I've ever played were against people who won the local tournament I was in, and who were absolutely klobbering me.
I lost one game 20-95 and it was so much fun, just because my opponent was such a good sport.
Thank you for this coverage! If I could like more than once, I would do it without any doubt.
It's as you said, a question of expectation and "historical" competitive events are great as everybody come with approximately the same mindset. "Here to win, here to share a passion, here to meet peoples, here to find people again".
And you have people from all other the worlds reunited for plastic minis, sharing dices and drinks.
I was one of the refs at this event, and I also have to say that was one of the cleanest one. Age Of Sigmar community have really matured and plays with intent to avoid feel bad. It doen't means they will prevent you to make mistakes, but they will be on the same level. I really like Denmark approach about this. Hard with the opponent but even harder with themselves.
And yeah, last day, the tension was in the air, but it still went great even with top teams fighting each others.
All and all, a superb event. And a Big shout out to Tom and Alliance Open that hosted the world tournament like the professional they are!
Looks like that aura of friendship spell you were casting worked.
I once killed the star Rogre and Stormvermin of 'that guy's Blood Bowl team. The score might have been 5-0, but I felt like a winner. Sadly, that guy was not able to win the tournament.
I'm a competitive Kill Team player, but also enjoy narrative play. The international kill team competitive community is very friendly and supportive. There are occasionally people who get overly rules lawyerly or salty after a tough loss, but the community is good at discouraging that.
I think the mismatch of expectations you talk about between narrative and competitive players happens more in store pick-up game situations. At a narrative event or a tournament, everyone has a shared expectation of other players goals when they show up. In a non-event game I always try to ask my opponent what their expectations are and how much experience they have before we start.
You have an awesome channel Louise, love your uploads,have a great week, take care 😊
Thank you so much! 😊😊😊
The 40k tournament environment these days is pretty darn good, much better than in the past. The scene has evolved and grown a lot, and bad behavior is FAR less common and FAR less tolerated than it used to be (though it still does pop up in places). Every time I go to tournaments, big or small, I meet cool people with great looking armies and have fun, competitive games. Sometimes it really feels like the apex of multiple aspects of the hobby coming together.
A poignant reminder that this shit is meant to be at least sort of enjoyable.
Right? It is a game after all. A game with toys lol
I'll probably start something by saying this, but the most toxic players I've met were mostly casual players.
Most competitive players in 40k I've met have been great, friendly, understanding of me when I was new - and even now, reminding of some ability they have to prevent 'gotcha' situations, because there's too many rules for everyone to memorise. I went to spend 2 command points to interrupt and was reminded they could force me to only attack one enemy character - which would totally invalidate my attack, having just spent a lot of resources. That player then asked if, knowing they COULD do that, if I'd like to spend those points - I obviously didn't want to. Was a tournament game, we both really wanted to win, but she didn't want to win because I forgot one of her rules.
The worst interaction I ever had was in a competitive tournament... against a casual player. Dude rocks up to the *COMPETITIVE TOURNAMENT*, which described itself as a competitive event, to quit after I shot with 4 of my units.
He complained about my army before we even deployed. He deployed in the open. He deployed on the line, obviously hoping to go first and deal an alpha strike. He made up rules to suit him - then got angry when I corrected him. When he made up yet another rule, I grabbed a judge to rule on it, because I was hoping that a TO would be able to smooth things out - nope, he gets even angrier.
In the end he concedes, calls me names, says my army is unfair, shouldn't exist, etc. Again, he deployed in the open, taking no cover, deployed on the line to try get in turn 1 charges, made up rules, didn't understand existing rules, but made out like I was the bad guy.
He was so toxic I nearly dropped out of the event. Even now, months later, I still expect strangers to be like him for some reason, rather than like all of the amazing, friendly players I know.
I 100% understand the mismatch between competitive players and casual players organising games, communicating expectations is extremely important. But that's a failure on both parties for not discussing it properly. When organising games for casual games, the understanding we have is that we're bringing the most cut-throat lists we can, so we both go in with that expectation and have a great time. Would be a really bad time if anyone decided to bring a narrative list without talking about it beforehand.
When I wanted to bring a nonsense knight list with 3 big melee knights, they responded with a similarly stupid tyranid list and we recreated pacific rim. Melee knights with token shooting against melee bugs with token shooting.
I've always been scared to go out in public and the idea of the meanies in the warhammer community has definitely made me wary of going to my local scene.
this video makes me hopeful. Thank you for making!
I was like this. After going to my first event I can safely say it’s great fun. Though I’ve only been to like 3 so far.
You should give it a try. Genuinely give the warhammer world events a try. They are usually the friendliest out there. Some will be a mit over the top but never seen someone uphappy at a game there
They’re just like you. Some you will like, some you won’t, some you will really enjoy spending time with because of your shared interests. Try it, just say “hi, what’s this?” about something to people you think look friendly because they are friendly.
I'd encourage you to give it a try! If you have a local store in mind, I'd suggest asking staff if they could help you connect with some of the fun and positive people in the community.
Every community of a certain size has bad apples, but the store staff can probably help you find the good apples and avoid the bad ones.
Do it! You might justske 5 new friends!
Almost scrolled past this because the red border on the bottom of the thumbnail made me think I had already watched the majority of it.
Interesting feedback thank u! Hadn't thought of that 👀
From some one whose played decently high level sports my entire life, most people have good sportsmanship and competitive integraty. But people will always remember that one bad experience. Personally, though tight competative games when both people are invested can have very entertaining fun moments.
quidditch?
It looks like a great time - really glad this is happening (& great coverage too). I feel like the patience and overall pain required to paint up an army (esp. of the qualities shown in the video) helps weed out the in-it-for-the-wrong-reasons-jerks and gives everyone a common backstory which helps build empathy and community.
the Danish sponsor is Suspekt, super Danish Rap band. It's so nice when one of the best bands supports a national team. And a great "Tillykke" to the team for winning
I prefer fugleflugten
I never really comment on things but here's my 2 cents:
I would encourage anyone interested in playing tough and well organised games to try tournaments in general. A good way to find players passionate about he game and most are happy to play for a laugh as well. As advice, be open about your expectations and they will usually switch lists or be extra attentive for you to not be at a disadvantage by e.g. forgetting rules or moving in a position that will ruin the game for you.
As someone having played on tournament scene in many games (although, not AOS but 40k, malofaux, infinity and Warmchine/Hordes). The camaraderie and enthusiasm for the game is peak in many of the people actively playing tournaments.
If tou do decide to join a tournament remember that:
It is going to be a tough game but thournament players are 99% super happy to both teach things after games (sometimes during if you are open with it being a dip into the scene) and they will ask and remind you of things tou may have missed if you make them aware that you are trying to become better. They will also I my experience explain/ask if you know any tricky rules they may have. Hiding or no explaining rules when asked what the specific rule does is a fast track out of the tournament scene.
Finally, like anything, there will be some less nice but as you mentioned "the out to stomp" players are usually not competitive tournament players and are also seldom welcome to these event due to past misconduct. They sadly live in the local gaming scene and ruin things for many new and more casual players.
I wish you happy hobby hours and fun games 🙂
Good to see a proof of life from you Louise after the last episode of Juggz. Also great cameos from Robert George Symes
It can be fierce game i used to watch my son compete but absolutely loved it, would definitely recommend warhammer even if just the painting part.
Looks like you had alot of fun meeting players from around the world.
Another great video Louise, and well done with getting on stage it can be overwhelming nice to see Rob there with you 😊
Amazing video Louise! Thank you for putting this together, competitive play gets such a bad wrap online but has always been positive in real life
I was there! Thanks for the wonderful coverage ❤
Any time!
THANK YOU! I feel like this is an important video since a lot of people online make the competetive scene and tournaments out to be some hotpot of super toxic tryhards. Since I'm a 40k player, I can also safely say that 40k tournaments aren't any different to what you describe, at least in my experience and from what I hear from friends who visit tournaments even more regularly. I'm not saying that there aren't any toxic players, just that I or anyone I know haven't had the displeasure of playing against someone like that. Generally, people are there to have fun, just in a different way from purely narrative players. But at the end of the day, it's not like it is about anything, you won't get rich and famous for winning a Warhammer tournament :P.
Most of the stories about toxic players also seem to come from a more local environment such as gamestores or small local events, which a lot of people who had that kind of unfortunate experience seem to project on the greater competetive scene, which is a bit sad.
From what I saw on the livestream, the Danes were a really good of example of how to play competitively, but also be fun, cool and have a laugh at the same time. I was stoked when you were onstage giving out the painted army award!
I’ve been playing 40K competitively for over a decade now. I’ve played literally hundreds and hundreds of different people. I’ve gone to events having over 1000 people in it and events that only had 12 people in it. I’ve played hot heads, cool heads, old heads, new heads, I’ve played in world championships and “learn the edition” less competitive events.
I have found overwhelming that 40K competitive players are fantastic folks!
There are bad eggs, 100%, but they are few and far between. I can probably count on 2 hands the total number of legitimately problematic competitive players.
It’s a social game. If you’re nerfing with your opponent, talk to them. 9/10 times it’s just miscommunication or something that isn’t actually an issue.
Once you get to the actual high tables you don’t usually find jerks. I think because people aren’t very good at their local RTTs they become obnoxious nob heads because they compensate for their lack of skill.
Competitive players that are good enough aren’t jerks. Maybe a little awkward, maybe a bit socially shy, but not jerks.
I would say about 1/5 games you get someone that is not much fun to play against. The nice thing about a tournament is you get a big turn out, if you lose a few you get opponents closer to your ability, and if you stay away from the top table, the games are a lot of fun. I had a guy yell at me because he didn't read the tournament rules that toned down the strongest weapons. We were on turn 2, and he packed up all his dudes and left for the day. It didn't feel great to chill for an hour while everyone else finished up when I was ready to play all day.
The fact the rules team pay so much attention to the tournament scene, is because that is the place where rules/points get stress tested. Based on those results, you can alter things to make a better game for all people. Because the narrative players still play with those same points and rules. (Yes, in scenarios you can play with upgraded units or different amounts of points then your opponent, but then you already decided on not having a "perfectly balanced" game, but a narrative experience. The rules are at that point a secondary thing
As someone who only really got into the 40k tourney scene post-Covid, I can count on one hand how many times I've felt like my opponent was being *that guy* with just assuming I knew he *meant* to put his guys touching terrain or not touching it, that he could've seen my unit if he moved more and thought he could (but never said it until his other unit failed to kill the target) he should be allowed to move his unit more in the shooting phase.
Overwhelmingly tourney players are out here trying to challenge themselves but know it takes two to play and confirming gamestate and playing by intent keeps everyone from getting hit by those feels bad moments where you're not in agreement on what is or isn't on an objective, in cover, in range, or what have you.
What a great report. Always refreshing to watch your videos. This one is especially enjoyable. I've had a rough anxiety-filled week and you brightened it up so much it almost brought tears of releif to my eyes. Sigmar's blessing upon you, Rogue!
My FLGS has the same people playing 40K and AoS for the most part. It's a very friendly place with a pretty good sized group of players, and lots of games from which to choose. AoS and 40K of course, but some 30K, Star Wars, and Conquest right now. And Necromunda is getting very big there. Anyway, some great players, who will change approach to teach new players the game without curb-stomping them.
In my personal experience, 'casual' players, ironically, are usually the ones with zero chill (a higher percentage of them, anyway). People who are into competive play a lot of games. People who play a lot of games get used to losing. The general result is that they're better sports in victory or defeat.
That makes a lot of sense.
I also wonder if those 'toxic' players would ever actually consider playing in a 'serious' tournament, as they have to win 'at all costs' yet in a tournament you are almost certain to lose more than you win, and that would be too much for their fragile egos.
I'm a casual player. I go to tournaments because it means I can get more than one game in after driving an hour.
I have no intention of winning. I don't even pay attention to win conditions or missions. I just want to roll dice, push models around and talk models and games.
But it inevitably turns into some guy trying to explain to me at length some obscure rule or something because it will give them the slightest advantage. Or they need to go on for 10 minutes about how some particular terrain feature is supposed to work.
I don't care about that crap. Whoever kills the most enemy models wins as far as I'm concerned.
Edit: just a small example of the last event I went to.
Opponent: okay Magnus will target that Battle Tank. Now, these dice are my cabal dice and these dice aren't cabal dice they-
*My eyes glaze over*
- so then that's... Destroyed.
Me: cool. Is that it for shooting?
Op: yeah... No assaults. I think that your go.
Me: *finishes movement* alright. The Vanquisher is gonna fire everything at Magnus.
Op: he's behind cover.
Me: uh... Clear line of sight from here.
Op: what? He's behind two terrain features, in this tournament first floors block-
*My eyes glaze over, I start thinking about how awesome 3rd edition was*
- so you can't possibly see him.
Me: I can see his legs, loincloth, stomach chest, face, and his staff and wing are way out on that side. I could target them too.
Op: *pulls out laser pointer and checks again and again and again. It is clearly obvious with each check. You can literally put a finger on the table and draw a line between the models uninterrupted.*
The Vanquisher knocked Magnus down to I think 3 wounds. And he was pissed for the rest of the game.
It wasn't until I was on the phone with my friend on the drive home that he pointed out what the problem was.
Friend: Dude, you know why he thought you couldn't see him? Because he's probably been practicing on table top simulator for weeks and never considered that terrain and stuff gets bumped and bounced throughout the day. He figured he knew exactly where he could place all of his models perfectly because the simulator kept telling him so.
Agree, mostly. For some reason (self-serving bias and cognitive dissonance probably, because thay can't do these things) these players create for themselves a narrative in which not knowing rules, measuring sloppily and playing badly is the right thing to do. And treat those who know the rules, are careful with measurements and generally don't fudge things around as the bad guys. This attitude is a pain.
@@kenupton4084 so you're bragging you don't understand terrain rules when you're in the wrong and whenever someone tries to explain them or their turn to you, you just stop listening? Poor opponent...
@@kenupton4084 the fact you typed this all out and still think he was the ass hole, is truly a staggering display of delusion.
Great video, lovely you are so open and honest about the experience. Thanks!!!
What a fantastic video. Love the positivity you shine a light into the scene here. Often what we hear of is the cheaters and stories of 'That Guy'. Breath of fresh air!
I've had worse experiences in casual games, where a small group of players would meet quarterly. The stakes seemed higher for everyone than when I joined a large competitive meta. Those of us who were better painters than players found that there were folks who were willing and wanting to help us be better players, and helped to make the sting of losing a minor inconvenience as there was always next week. Many of the competitive players would turn out for narrative events, and they were really helpful in being fair when the narrative rules might present problems for the game or specific armies. I'm not a competitive player, but I really appreciate what a good competitive meta can bring.
the music at 3:30 took me right back to being awake 24/7 with my little squig watching dancing fruit 😂
Wooo looking forward to this one, this event looked so fun and wholesome 💖
spoiler alert: it kinda was
Thank you for your positivity over our event and community! Worlds has remained one of the highlights of my year in Age of Sigmar, and honestly I’d go just to see everyone again, even if I couldn’t compete. One of the most positive vibes you’ll ever find in the hobby, IMO
I am a Referee for french competitive 40k events. Sportmanship and making everyone make friends and have a good time is part of our job. I am not joking, showing good sportmanship is literally written in the rules of the events now.
And even if you are a "less experienced" or "less skilled" player, you will be welcomed. Hell, if anything, the big try hard will love you. It makes for a really chill and easy game for them! And they will be more than happy to talk lore, hobby, painting, conversion or even rules and how to get better. And it is not all about stomping on your opponent, it is also about how to help your opponent make better decisions, or not get caught by stuff that were hard to play.
I mean yes, ofc, you come for a competitive event. And expect a bit more "try hard" armies and gameplay. But at the end of the day, we are pushing painted minis on a table. This is about playing with other humans, having a nice weekend with people that share your passion and simply you know... being a different person than at work. Being able to have fun, and let go. And enjoying other humans being making you feel at home.
Even our "serial losers" (and they exists, the first few tournaments, everyone lose a lot of games) have genuine fun and come back. Because you know... winning is not really the main thing. It matters but also... It is more about who you are as a human and what you learn and find and discover and... how much you enjoy it!
PS: Competitive players can also love to play narrative games btw. A month before the event, the french team's coach was recording a battle report for a french YT channel playing minis from his army that will never see a competitive table simply because... he loved them, their lore, their look and their sculpt. A competitive player also like to just play with their mini in a more relaxed setting sometimes. Hell, if anything, if you ask them, they have a ton of really silly armies ideas, that would be legal and absolutely not competitive but also just... super funny to just try. And that they would love to play. I wonder if an even based on the most silly list building theme would be of interest :D
omg Denmark I'm glad you had a wicked time! I went to the Poland Warhammer ETC a million years ago and had a similar experience. With the meanie players, I've found that's more the people who see themselves as like the champ of their local gaming store, beating the same few people, and get arsey when they don't win. Playing as a team you have to.... play as a team! IE have those teamlike qualities. And it involves playing different people from different places, so the usual "tricks" they might do, won't wash.
I believe you can be really competitive and still fun to play, and these events prove it
-Annie
Competitive doesn’t have to be bad, most people want to have a fun time and give their opponent a good game. You don’t hear about positive experiences, you only ever hear about the bad ones. That is true in all kinds of things not just Warhammer. You can get a bad match even in a setting that is supposed to be fun and fluffy like crusade. The worst game I have ever played was actually in what was supposed to be a casual fluffy setting. Bro came in to absolutely curb stomp with a pile of grey plastic he just then negligently picked up by the handful and tossed it back in the box without a care.
Honestly. Always looked like fun, I would be bad at it, but I always liked the idea. Now if only I could get over my social anxiety and drag myself to something like this I might actually enjoy myself.
Been there!! It was my first big GT. And I LOVED every second of it!! Met some amazing prayers, AOS has such an amazing community!
Thanks for the excellent coverage Louise. It was a lot of fun. Hoping you do more of these kinds of videos next the future ❤
Getting best painted army, chosen by you, would have been the true win for me.
Im on a competative 40k Team myself and ofc if you go to a tournament you bring the most cut-throat List humanly possiblel if you wan to win. This does not mean that you behave like a jerk on the tables. Sportsmanship and the style of play is key.
I've never had a bad experiance playing 40k, or in fact any of the myriad of games i've played over the years. I do however think the "teams" format is a superb way of reducing any toxicity, no single player can sink a team - and teams seldom tolerate behaviour that would mar the whole group poorly. Saying bad behaviour doesn't exist would be silly, but it certainly isn't common. Maybe Sigmar is even cleaner than the 40k scene (because of relative size), we'll see what happens if the new edition is as popular as we hope.
Lets face it we always know GW is extremely apt at squandering obvious wins, but there's signs the beast may be learning in recent times. Lets hope the good idea gets to the community team before the legal one...
I wish you had had the chance to see the Bloodbowl World Cup last year, 1500ish coaches playing nine games over three days, it was amazing! A true hobby festival
Louise, your enthusiasm is totally infectious!! That sounds like an amazing time, glad you had such a good experience :D
This definitely makes me want to give AoS a try. Spearhead looks like a nice place to start
yaaay! I love this :D
It’s my experience that the AoS community is much healthier than the 40k community.
Having had similar experiences along with most of my friends, AoS is much healthier and happier, less try hard. We tend to be more helpful to new players because we want more people to enjoy it and stick around
@@rodneyr5266I never really had any bad experiences playing AoS, 40k on the other hand more than I count.
@@Black_Blow_Fly I can agree with that. My very first game of 40k was against someone that brought a highly competitive list, knowing this was my very first game. Needless to say it turned me off from 40k and eventually sold my army. AoS on the other hand I enjoyed and even got ranked as a Stormcast player a couple of years ago.
Hard agree. AoS has felt much less toxic since the beginning.
Thats funny, because in my local community the AOS players are insufferable tryhards while the 40k players are super chill.
This was my first time attending Worlds, and this was by far the best event i have been to. it was super amazing. We didnt do as well as we had hoped, but each game was a blast, each opponent amazing. i will 100% be looking to attend next year again
I have friends in the Magic: the Gathering community and this is pretty similar. Casual friday night magic has its sweaty try hards, but at big RCQ or Pro Tour events, it's surprisingly chill. Ive often found "casual" commander pods more upsetting than a cEDH table for the reason you mentioned regarding everyone's expectations for the game.
I've played competitively against Annie of Bad Squiddo fame (Hi Annie!!), She absolutely was not a try-hard and had a lovely Vampire counts army. Yes this was a while ago, it was in Warhammer Fantasy Battle !
As a life long Annie stan I say hell ye
Please check out the Quar wargame, it's cute!
Thankyou for the cool Video Louise! Tournaments look scary to me, but this one in particular looked super fun and high energy. Much love!
Its so nice to see Denmark as a nation support their team so much. I really loved those box diorama's they brought along, so cool. Well done to them! Really lovely to see everyone having fun and were excited to be there! 😄My general feeling towards any competitive anything be it Warhammer, a video game, a sport etc. is that you will always walk away with something even in defeat. For example you may learn a new tactic/strategy and/or you may learn from a mistake. There is always something to be gained from a match, even in a loss. If im outplayed I always try to congratulate, and maybe try to learn from my opponent by asking questions. Ive made good friends from doing this too. Being bitter and toxic will not get you anywhere.
Great video. The event looks great.
It was! 😊
I've had to shut down some of the anti-competitive folks that have popped up in my local scene on the local area 40k discord. When new people would join, they would basically be warned about going to most of the shops because they only had "competitive" players. The scene in Fayetteville, NC, and the surrounding areas is fantastic, tons of friendly players, and players that range from competitive to casual enough to have full on phobos armies because that fits the lore of their custom chapter. A little north of us in Raleigh, there's a pretty cutthroat community that's been known to shit talk your list for having less than the best units in it. The term "competitive" has taken on such a negative connotation, and it's sad. Personally, whether it's a tournament or a random pickup game, I'm playing beer and pretzel warhammer, I'll just be putting more thought into the tactical side in a tourney.
I think referring to them as 'tournament' players instead of 'competitive' helps a bunch! Tournaments are fun 'trying too hard to win' isn't!
I wish I had time to go into this in my video but I didn't want it to be 1hr long!
@roguehobbies just highlighting it how you did is a huge help, I feel like part of playing any sort of player vs. player game, trying to win is an important part, especially for your opponents. I've never enjoyed one-sided games, tournament or not, because, while I want to win, both players having a great time is the most important part. Like, folks can play however they want, but what's the point if you aren't playing to win? That's one of the many reasons I left MTG for WH40K, I had too many commander games where people just wanted to do weird stuff instead of being actively involved in the game...
I love seeing new people out in the competitive scene. I always make sure they have a great time no matter how hard I beat them.
I'm not a competitive person at ALL, I love playing games, and ofcourse, I enjoy a win whenever it comes, but I've never felt like deep diving into rules and listbuilding to be the absolute best player I could be. It just doesn't interest me as much. For me the hobby has always been the miniatures, the painting and kitbashing, the story. I have however been to a few tournaments (not Warhammer, but I've played in X-Wing and Magic the Gathering tournies), and I've never seen bad vibes. It's always friends hanging out, and very welcoming to newcomers. My aim in all of the tournies I played was to have fun, and not come in last. And I always made sure my opponent knew my view too.
This video has been absolutely lovely, and really shows the camaraderie of people just loving the same thing :D
3:46 always good to see Rob representing.
Even though it’s sometimes hard to be a man in this community, he does it with style and grace.
(you guys absolutely make my day. Thanks.)
My experience with "competitive" gamers is pretty poor...but it's probably simply my local area. 40K is easily the worst of the bunch. I find about 30% of the guys are cool/chill, etc. The other 70% are people I wouldn't spend time with given a choice...ranging from 'awkward' to 'massive tool bag'.
I think at an event like this one in the video, you're not getting the "average" tournament experience, but that's a good thing.
Thats basically my experience in a nutshell too
I'm glad you had a good time, it looked like an awesome experience and everyone seemed really cooI. I primarily play 40k but i've always had such a great time with the AoS community. I think that its great that there is such a friendly comp scene but its being pushed heavily by GW and im finding it bleeds more and more into casual 40k these days. At least from my experience and that of my friends.
Im finding im getting less and less thematic and fluffy games because people are obsessed with the competitive meta when i play at my local club or LGS. I feel like that competitive play is becoming more of the norm in casual match ups and i feel a lot of that is due to GW's method of balancing based on competitive win rates and a lot of youtube channels being geared to comp play so it gives people the impression that its the only way to play. I think it breeds a bit of tense atmosphere too because I've had plenty of games where i have to spend the first one or two turns reassuring my jumpy opponent that there won't be any gotchas and we're here to have fun. Also a lot of comp players i know are wonderful, lovely people but they are insistent on making every game an opportunity to practice competitive games instead of just unwinding and having a silly time rolling dice. I don't mind getting a bit more competitive now and then but I'm struggling to get the balance these days.
More and more im finding i'll play people who aren't coming in to have fun but are trying to win and win as DOMINANTLY as possible be it by list tailoring or downplaying their army strength when match ups are organized. They don't want to play competitions but they still want to play into the meta of the game. After so many games of "I know we're meant to have a balanced list but i heard you were playing knights so i brought an entirely anti tank list instead" its made me actually want to play some tournaments because at least i can guarantee a balanced list there. But at the same time i don't want to play comp because its just not the atmosphere I'm into. I play crusade which is great but if i just want a one off game of leviathan its becoming harder and harder to get a casual one. I got suckered into it for a bit too just buying minis because they were whatever was the strongest unit for the army during that two month period between updates instead of just fielding lists i find fun.
Comp is great and i have no issues with the people who would enjoy that enjoy that scene, i just wish there was more division between the comp scene and a more casual way to play and that people understood you can still enjoy the game without trying to dominate and table your opponent in two turns. GW games have always been super thematic for me it sucks that more and more it feels like its becoming purely about the numbers, stats and rule bending than the actual storytelling and fun of AoS and 40k games.
This video simply radiates good vibes. It was such a joy to watch and I loved the pairing cards
I've said it for years: There is NO such thing as a toxic community. The bigger the community is, the more likely it is to draw in the crazies. That's true of EVERY hobby. The problem is content creators, news agencies, whoever, get loads of hate clicks from letting everyone know how bad some popular community is because it stirs up drama and anger. In truth, tabletop hobbyists are some of the nicest people I've ever encountered. I've gone to dozens and dozens of stores and whenever I ask to view someone playing a tabletop game, you can damn well bet that not only will they say yes, they will ask if I want to play and learn within a few minutes of watching.
a wiser old hydra shaman once said to me making 5 new friends mean's your 5 times more likely to get stabbed in the back
Crikey!
Great video. I don't play tournaments often, but I have personally found that most people are so positive that it makes the very infrequent negative experiences really stand out. Thinking about it, the common thread for me has been when someone shows a lack of sportsmanship after the game has ended - I just find it socially jarring after vibing along.
In my experience, the most fun is had when you play with what I’ve always called “the same kind of nerd”. There are min-maxing nerds, rules lawyers, RP nerds, LARPERS, etc. Some people like cooperating fox maximum fun, others are out for blood (which they consider fun). As you point out, people get upset when there are different sets of expectations. I truly *hate* playing competitively, but I love cooperative games. When it comes to TTRPGs, I hate rules lawyering and prefer what some people would consider “disappearing into the character”. But, to each their own.
Note that I don’t mean I hate competitive people or rules lawyers. I just don’t play with them expecting them to follow my preferences.
I think in a lot of areas of nerd culture, competition and meta gaming needs to be in its appropriate setting.
With TTRP, if in DMing, I ask the players if they're more power gamers or roleplaying. If I'm in a group of players who are more about roleplaying, I dial down my sweaty power gaming tendencies.
If I'm playing a casual game, say in MTG, I'll play a more casual deck. However, in a tourny, I enjoy competition and challenge.
Problem is when ego and status gets mixed in with people trying to have fun: it usually ends in tears. I've been around in so much drama in ElderScrolls Online, pvp and pve groups over disputes of people being left out or exluded because of skill level. On the whole, just better communication would have alleviated most of it. It's when being good at something becomes your identity and primary source of self-esteem is where it leads to toxic behavior.
Competitive play has its place, as does casual. Both are valid.
Very much so!
Issue is when the rules get convoluted for the casual players when tournament play eeks out every ounce of cheese :)
Well at least it’s not 40k (from an ext Tournament Scene player)
What an amazing and uplifting video. Congratulations to all the participants. GW is, indeed, dropping the ball when it comes to capturing the fun and excitement of gameplay.
Great video! As someone who plays competitive AoS it's great to have a fair balanced appreciation of what competitive play means.
This video single-handedly made me want to play AoS. Time to pick out my first army
I love this 🥹
This was a fantastic video, so glad that you had a good experience and that you shared that
I loved sharing it 🥹
My experience with the local competitive scene has been similar to what you saw with AOS. There are a handful of "that guys" but they tend to not get invited to practice games. I played in a tournament with ~60 players and there was only one person who was kind of a dick. Everyone else was super friendly.
Thank you for this great video!
I absolutely loved the hilarious animation around minute 14 =D
I had a flashback to my first game in a FLGS ... but I didn't let it deter me :)
I always think it's a positive thing when a game has a competitive playerbase, because that means it's popular and the company will continue to support the game and make new content for it. I'm not a competitive player at all, I'm a very casual gamer in general, but I do enjoy watching various esports and I like the fact that there are real official events that more competitive players can take part in. It's true that in some cases the competitive gaming scene can get toxic (especially towards newer or more casual players), but that's the case for all games. I think that just as you mentioned in your video, clearer communication needs to happen between the different types of players so that we can all find people to play with who are on the same wavelength. And I would also like to see both sides more accepting of the other, since casual and competitive play are both equally valid and fun ways to play.
Fantastic video! Thanks, Louise. Your positivity about the hobby makes me more positive about the hobby :-)
I really appreciated your video. This kind of video makes us, AOS players and fans, very pleased to be represented by people who express such joy and camaraderie. I wish that GW would spend more making players happy than making shareholders happy. They might make both happy that way.
I'm a 40k competitive player (but love friendly narrative games too), and the atmosphere at tournaments is very similar to that you saw at the AoS one. People are trying to win of course, but there's a great sportsmanship type conduct, with very few "thats guys" who are often identified and made to feel unwelcome. Everyone celebrates the winner, there's no bad blood and people have a lot of fun. The stereotype isn't true at all.
First time at an event like this is often for the love of the game. Every subsequent time is for the friends, the banter, the drinking, the shirt swapping, the stories and so much more. I have only been to the warmachine wtcs in 2018 and 19 and still have the fondest memories. The game system doesn't really matter, the vibes and good times are always the same.
What a beautiful video. Thanks for sharing such raw joy!
Somehow the algorithm brought me here ... and all I can say is THANK YOU! (mostly to you, only a littlebit to the YT Overlords).
As a competitive Wargamer for about 2 decades now and having had to deal with _all_ the negative stereotypes from the "more casual parts of the community" I can just underline all the positivity you showed here - despite not having touched a GW Mini in the last half decade (I currently main Malifaux ... you should check their minis out ;) ).
In short - I feel seen.
and again - thank you for that
I love your coverage of it.
And being from Denmark I to was pleasantly surprised that one of my old stomping grounds for games had been covered in the news and media. Maybe it helped that one of our top musicians sponsored the shirts. Either way it was nice to see that we took home the win for a 3rd year in a row, but most important. Watching your coverage, it seemed that the spirit is still there, where everyone is having fun. Just like it was when I was playing in tournaments many many years ago.
Love the video and hope you will cover next years as well.