The £15 Million Cyclops Junction | St Helens | Is It Worth The Wait?
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2024
- I visit the relatively new Cyclops Junction in Saint Helens to have a look at whether or not it was money well spent.
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This is one of my main issues for cycling infrastructure in the uk. Its often so subserviant to the needs other space users that it ends up really compromised and indirect , if you are commuting by bike then like all commuters time is your main concern, it would be great to do so without worrying about other traffic as much but if the route is so circuitous or interrruped, it just wont be a practical solution. I do like the idea of these junctions done right.
I would like to point out that dutch roundabouts (where traffic is high) are designed like this too; with a circular route for bikes; this is to ensure bikes and cars are at 90 degrees to eachother for visibility. Whether it's necessary on a signal-controlled junction, probably not
I've used these junctions by bike, on foot and in a car and when the signalling is sorted properly they are not subservient for people on bikes, quite the opposite on occasion.
thanks for doing this! Great to see the challenges and poor facilities provided for us cyclists. The footage of the filthy lanes which disappear and reappear filled with debris will help to explain to motorists why often cyclists don't use them and choose to occupy more space in the road. It's safer and quicker for us. Simple as that. When it's raining and windy I'm doing what I can to get home and dry asap. If that means not using the bike lanes for a stretch, so be it.
I'd love you to go to Amsterdam and do a cycling and driving vid! I was there once and the priority rules at junctions are so different to the UK. It changes the road use culture massively
To answer your question at 17:29…why bother with cycle areas like that? Quite simply it ticks a box in council meetings where they can say “We have dedicated cycle areas in our community”
May be worth inviting the local Road Safety Officer to cycle across Cyclops with you to highlight the issues.
That's the problem they don't and because they don't they end up not working in practice
It's ridiculous that all this money was invested in safety improvements, and yet the more convenient option is still to cycle in traffic. Too many bike upgrades around the world fall into this trap. And then people complain that "nobody use the bike lanes, we can't build more" I wonder why nobody uses them.
Well its been documented elsewhere, must of these schemes are designed by people who are not qualified to do so, Cycle infrastructure design is on covered at Post Grad level.
The green cycle routes look lovely and clear and of course safe, but as you say those cycle specific lights are hopeless. Regarding the bollards on the approach sections, their very existence prevents road sweepers from getting up to the kerb, so they are only ever going to be full of detritus, unless they pay someone to walk down them with a broom once in a while (can't see that happening).
They built similar near us but they are cyclist crossings instead of lights
Trouble is all the bad drivers around means they're very rarely looking
Had a few nearly over the handle bar moments to avoid being flattened. For those cycling with families or less confident risers it's a massive improvement however. Was joining a NSL road before - lethal to try and cross
you can get narrow road sweepers.
@@highpath4776 I've seen smaller ones in my area but they wouldn't fit the brushes between the kerb and the bollards, at least the ones I know of anyway.
@@highpath4776if they cleaned it properly they’d have an operator with a leaf blower pushing onto the path of a sweeper in the main carriageway. Of course, that won’t realistically be done until it becomes a serious problem at which point they’ll decide it’s not safe to do that with the amount of debris being thrown around.
The well painted areas are great, however I suspect they will fade quickly and not be repainted to such a standard. It would also be good to have standard colours for bike lanes/ bus lanes etc. surprised there isn’t already, but it seems to be left to the local authority.
I agree the barriers should be removed next to the cycle lanes. For one reason the councils road sweepers can’t hoover up any debris or rubbish. That does make it more dangerous to come off your bike.
In NL some junctions like this one actually detect the approaching cyclist and go green before the cyclist has even stopped.
Based on your experience I would probably not use the cycle paths on this junction choosing instead to use the road. The problem is that my action would trigger some drivers, I would get some verbal abuse and even experience some aggressive punishment driving.
The best I would hope for is if this is a preliminary measure with a view to use more intelligent light control in the future.
My feeling regarding the cycle lane with the poles is that yes the surface is crap and covered with debris (do we even have equipment to be able to sweep them?) But they do provide the perception of increased safety (rightly or wrongly)
imo if they're gonna have sensors dead at the stop line anyways they should just install a button like those pedestrian crossings. I would be interested to see with the current setup if it would help if the cyclists get off to press the button for the pedestrian crossing.
@@dovahseod yes it would but I'd be surprised if it changes any quicker.
@@dovahseod In the Netherlands, like cars, cyclists often have very early detectors, as well as beg buttons. These early detectors often actually prioritize cyclists; at the same time on minor intersections as this the lights manage to also let through some car traffic. And often they account for the speed of cyclists, making sure the 90 degrees for cyclists are in phase for an average cycling speed, thus not needing to stop twice.
Traffic heading parallel to the cyclists do not need a red light most of the time, even if turning over the cycle lane. The islands allow for enough vision, separation and slowing on turns that allowing them a green at the same time doesn't impact safety much, with this i do assume that traffic heading in the same direction get the right of way (in this case the cyclists) is a rule of traffic in the UK as well.
Basically, wherever Ashley mentions comparing to the traffic right of him, whenever they get a green to go straight on, he should have as well.
@@grahambonner508 He probably didn't trigger the sensor initially at first- pressing the button for the pedestrians is more likely to register.
@@OssWiX The main reason he doesn't get a green with the other cars could be that the cars turning left are to his right side along with the other traffic for most sides. Normally having bikes and pedestrians cross with the traffic going straight and have left turning traffic yield would be enough imo.
My favourite part was at 22:19 when you rode through a red light 😅
In all seriousness, no, it won't be used, especially if you need to turn right as it will take like 15 mins compared to a couple if you were on the road.
Also, what do you think the chances are that the Council bought a bike lane specific road cleaner designed to fit in the lanes to clean them?
The junctions are timed such that a right turn can be made immediately after your ahead movement: both lights go green at once. The sensors are clearly defective here, delaying the greens longer than they should
@@SamLTate Only if you're the first bike through. Ashley barely made it the the next light before it started going red again. Someone with an older/heavier/unassisted bike or carrying more weight like a child or shopping or towing something, or following even just one other bike around wouldn't make it and have to wait to for every crossing separately. Also, there's that one direction Ashley came from at the end where the right turn requires 3 crossings, which he had to wait for at the end, (when the lights were going amber before he reached the second crossing). The longer separated cycle path section (where the sensors don't appear to be working at all) is on one side of that road, so forcing bikes to go one way around requires them to cross 3 roads. It's not surprising the bikes coming from that direction at two separate occasions in the video, at 19:22 with the oncoming bike who was still following the correct route until near the point he nearly fell off, and at the top of the screen at 25:27, just go the wrong way then over a pedestrian only area, although as much of that can be the straight on arrow pointing the wrong way around the cycle path around the junction at 22:55, as I think was the cause of Ashley initially going the wrong way, as those who have tried it the right way and got fed up waiting. At a minimum the section of the crossing at the top left of the shot at 25:27 should be 2 way for bikes, and the separated path needs a slip lane sooner to direct bicycles around the correct way with the correct left arrow markings so not to send people the wrong way towards a crossing with nothing to warn people from that direction that they need to stop. It's a potentially fatal layout error, catching out an experienced driving instructor should be a major warning sign, especially as people don't need to pass a test to ride a bike somewhere.
I live in this area. This junction is on my direct route to work. I use a mixture of a car, bicycle, and motorcycle to get to work and there are struggles with all three. Specifically around rush hour, there have been many occasions in which all the traffic has stopped to allow non-existent cyclists to go around a roundabout that they don't use, or you still have to keep on the lookout for students from the nearby schools jumping the lights and the kerbs, completely disregarding the new junction rules. On a motorcycle especially I agree with Ashley that in the rain, the painted areas are incredibly slippy to stop and you have to be so careful when putting your foot down that you don't slip and lose your balance.
All around terrible change to an otherwise previously functioning junction. Not to mention the disruption to the local businesses while the work was being completed. Especially the Bull & Dog pub who were all but cut off completely by fencing.
The pedestrian lights and cycle lights happen at the same time so all traffic will stop for one pedestrian just as with any other crossroads. At this time the cycle lights will go green too but it doesn't mean the traffic is stopped for a non existent cyclist: they're stopped for the pedestrian
I think i would have been off the bike and walked across. I wouldn't cycle through any red light but i will walk across a pedestrian crossing when clear regardless of the light. Agree with your comments on the protective bollards. I doubt i would use that cycle lane.
This whole project was a massive white elephant. It’s worth noting that the council didn’t pay for the majority of it. They received a grant to trial this new type of junction.
The roundabout it replaced was perfectly adequate. There was rarely any queueing traffic at any entrance and now, especially as peak times, traffic queues a long way down the bus lane. If you do the correct thing and attempt to change lanes after the bus lane ends, you can imagine how irate drivers already in the lane get when you attempt a “late” lane change.
The approaches don’t make clear which lane to be in. In fact the only lane arrows are at the lights themselves and often have cars on top of them. On one side of the junction it’s the left lane for left and ahead. On the other side, it’s the left lane for left only.
But the biggest problem is the overall profile of the junction. Large vehicles simply cannot make the tight left turn from Marshalls Cross Road.
In short, the council accepted a grant to build a junction that wasn’t needed, increased congestion and provides little benefit to cyclists or pedestrians. And, before long, the fading paint and markings will likely make it a difficult-to-navigate eyesore.
I concur; if it's not broken, why fix it? The disruption during the roadworks (for about nine months) was horrendous as well. A bit of useless information; the original roundabout had a WC (lavatory) in the middle!!!
And there's barely any cyclists riding anyway. I know the activists say that you have to build cycling infrastructure first, and then people will start riding because they will "feel safe" to do it. But has it every worked like that in market economy? I believe the Netherlands already had cycling culture before they started reforming the infrastructure, so demand came before the supply. And now you can see hundreds of people using a bike as a legitimate mode of transportation, not just a leisure activity, in various parts of the Netherlands.
And I think the activists try to recreate what the NL has done when their home towns and cities lack the conditions that made it possible in the first place.
@@artemkatelnytskyi The "If you build they'll come" is sort of like half truth. If you'll make it difficult to get places while walking or biking less people will do it. And at the other end if you'll make it easier the more people will do it. But it also matters *where* you put it. Put it in an area where its difficult to even reach it it will of course not make a difference.
@@88balloonsonthewall70 true true, thanks for that.
No, you are wrong. This is not a 'trial' and nor is it the junction on its own. This junction is part of a wider scheme to make access to Lea Green train station easier for pedestrians, cyclists AND motorists. Particularly those areas to the south of the train station, that despite being fairly close to it, previously had no safe routes to cycle there. The aim is to encourage those commuting into the centre of Liverpool to do so on the train, rather than driving into the centre.
The £15m is going to fund:
- a double storey car park at the train station (yes, for motorists!), so that there's better provision to park and get on the train.
- a new building at the station with a waiting room, toilets and other facilities to improve the comfort of passengers waiting for a train.
- a new ticket booking system.
- seven new cycle routes to connect the residential, leisure and employment areas to the south of Lea Green train station, to the station.
- this CYCLOPS junction, to make it safer for cyclists and pedestrians accessing the train station from the south to negotiate this junction.
I think to write this off as a white elephant before it's got started is very short-sighted.
It's all well and good building junctions to accommodate non-motorised traffic, but if you want to encourage people out of their cars, you have to make it the path of last resistance.
This is exactly the reason I don't use the cycle infrastructure where I live (if you can call it that), because it's more convenient for me to just use the main carriageway.
Cycling over a certain distance will never be a path of less resistance than driving. The fact that people like you ignore the cycle lane that was built for them just proves its a massive waste of taxpayers money.
@@goodyeoman4534 It's a waste of taxpayer money when the lanes are inconvenient like in this video. Doesn't mean bike lanes are a waste of taxpayer money. Imagine if roads where as haphazard as cycle lanes, nobody would drive.
@@goodyeoman4534 The fact that people like you blame the service users who refuse to countenance an expensive and utterly useless white elephant, instead of directing your opprobrium at all the well-paid people who completely chuffed up the entire thing from concept to completion, consequently wasting tax-payers' money just proves that you only ever want things to benefit you, while everyone else can go swivel. That's the true meaning of the politics of envy.
No, me not using cycle infrastructure doesn't prove cycle infrastructure in general is a waste of money, because cycle infrastructure in this country in most places isn't built to benefit cyclists, it's just so that they can tick a box.
I think you've also answered your own argument: cycling will never be the path of least resistance for longer distances. It's not longer distances that are the problem: people are using cars for ridiculously short journeys. By making it easier and more convenient to walk or cycle you dramatically reduce the amount of congestion, pollution, and fatalities.
@@ExtantThylacine It suggests it's waste of infrastructure if your attitude is even slightly reflective of cyclists in general.
Good point about the driving long distances though. I do that for work. Do I want to? No. I'd love to be within cycling distance of my job. And hopefully that will happen soon.
Cheers.
Well said, “it’s how you deal with it 1st time” it’s easy to go around a complicated junction when you are a local and already know the road,
When a stranger turns up and unknowing and upsets everything by being in the wrong place at the wrong time is evidence of a bad design.
I grew up around that roundabout (as it was), and I was riding around it on my bike from the age of ten after getting biking classes from my junior school. If it was packed solid (morning or home time) I would go around it and wait (still five to ten times faster than you made it). I used to also bike to senior school around that roundabout, past the railway station and up towards the other roundabouts. Again, I lived in the area and the only people injured/killed were the big kids from the Sherdley High school that was on the edge of where you rode to. They would jump the lights, run across the 60 mph road (now 30 or 40 mph) and do a lot of daft stuff. Lots of pedestrian lights were put in, but they wouldn't wait for them and would still be killed. That roundabout now looks a nightmare, and I bet it's a nightmare for cars at peak times. I also bet those cone things were put in to stop people parking on the side during the fair or bonfire night, and forcing people to pay the council for a parking place on the local park.
It looks good, but I wonder how well it will do in 10 years when the paint fades. The local council here can't seem to paint lines often enough on old roads, so many give way junctions are starting to become ambiguous. I hope the council there doesn't fall into the same "capex"/"opex" trap, they spend £15mn building the thing but budget approximately f-all for maintaining it.
Complete waste of money, roundabouts are much better for traffic flow and safety. If they were really interested in improving cycling infrastructure they would just put in a large Dutch roundabout.
The looks don't matter tho, its how it function that matters and it doesn't work.
The issue there I think is that Central Govt denies adequate funding to local authorities for rg road maintenance.
That is a basic culture change which involves a commitment to a high quality public realm.
If you look at the Active Travel England ratings for capability to deliver walking and cycling infra, the only ones to reach 3 (on a scale of 0 to 4) are those with long term funding in place which are not dependent on the political machinations of national government to win an election.
The effective ones either have long-term deals in place done by Regional Mayors (eg Manchester) or local long term funding (eg Nottingham with their Workplace Parking Levy which goes largely on Public Transport and alternatives to motor vehicle use.)
@@letter1014 Not really true. A well designed, compact, single-lane roundabout can be safe for cyclists. However, single lane roundabouts are only appropriate on low-medium traffic junctions. Most British roundabouts have at least 2 lanes and allow higher speeds and they have a poor safety record for cyclists. They are also quite intimidating for pedestrians. Traffic flow is better at roundabouts under the right circumstances, but sometimes traffic lights can allow better flow (especially when flows from the different approach roads are quite unbalanced).
A fair bit less than 10 years, given my experience. Many lane marks fade out after a couple of years, especially on roundabouts with heavy traffic, with everything actually running over the paint all the time.
An exersice for Box Tickers.
I'd try it the once, then back on the road.
As for those bollards, I've 2 friends ( both very experienced cyclists ) who have been injured with contact with those things !
It stands for Cycle Optimized Protected Signals (CYCLOPS) junction
Cyclops junctions are generally a good design, they are quite similar to Dutch traffic light junctions, but with the cycle path on the outside of the pedestrian crossings rather than inside them, but the principle is the same. There are quite a few of these junctions in certain parts of the country now. As with any traffic light controlled junction, the light timings are key for the junction to work well. You can give cyclists as little or as much priority as you want. Here, it seems the sensors are not working properly, which is a big problem. However, bad sensors at one junction doesn't mean the design principle is bad. If done properly, they can be really good.
How is it possible for traffic signal engineers to mess up this badly? These types of junctions in America, Canada, and the Netherlands don't have this problem
They didn't. What probably happened is the proposal initially allowed cyclists to get around pretty quickly but then someone said "but won't that slow down traffic flow?" and from that point on it was doomed.
Every so called "cycling infrastructure" project falls victim to the same mentality. Even worse often money set aside for cycling projects is used for such projects which simply ends up being used to improve the motoring experience whilst often making things worse for cyclists.
As for the cycle lanes, here in the UK they're a poor joke and exist so the council can get grants by virtue of the larger numbers on their spreadsheets.
When decent cycle lanes actually happen (around me they were part of the original building plan) then the mentality of the average person is they're somewhere to park their car. You wouldn't believe the fuss created when the council said they were going to paint double yellows along them.
I've no idea who thought the bollards were a good idea but obviously they're clueless.
Any idea if the road sweepers/cleaners' vehicles fit behind the barriers on the cycle lane? If not it's just going to be a dump for people's rubbish, isn't it?
They exist and are used in some places.
The main thing it requires is a Local Highways Authority with appropriate priorities and cycle tracks / lanes of a reasonable width (usually 2m as is the national minimum width recommendation).
We have a lot of these junctions in Manchester and they work really well.
The two issues you highlighted, ie the lack of infrastructure once you're past the junction and the waiting times, aren't a factor because the cycleway continues and the cycle lights are button controlled (mostly).
I'd encourage you to visit the Chorlton Cycleway in Manchester to see what this kind of junction is like when it's properly implemented.
Spoiler: really bloody good.
My experience with Manchester's cycle lanes are yes some parts are really good, but once you turn off from them, you're just dumped onto the road with cars. There's no network that conncets places that people live to places people go. Just a few good corridors.
I keep bringing this point up.... pedestrians and cyclists should be prioritised higher at junctions. I.e, if a pedestrian pushes a crossing walk button, the lights should change ASAP. That way, as a motorist, I am not waiting for a cyclist / pedestrian that isn't there because they got tired of waiting in the rain!
They've just installed a similar junction near where I live in Warrington. As a driver it was no real difference. As a cyclist turning left was quite useful without having to queue at the lights, but on my way back it was much easier to just queue up with the traffic to turn right as normal. Even as a pedestrian I found myself initially using the cycle crossing as this was where the old pedestrian crossing was. So in all the council (one of the most in debt in the country) have wasted 100s of thousands of pounds on a junction that has very little benefit when the roads in and around the town are constantly clogged of traffic. 🙃
One of the worst things about this junction, when you come from the direction you did, is that when the roads are at all busy that little stretch of bus lane causes so many problems. You end up with the choice between getting in the bus lane or blocking the open lane and having the queue back up on to the junction. To confuse it a bit further the council have now installed a ‘get in lane’ sign advising you to get into the left lane, but they’ve installed it at a part of the road that is still bus lane.
It’s about 1/2 mile from my house. It is an unmitigated mess, took 9 months to do (6 months timescale). With roadworks still on going from it, the same bit of Chester lane is now dug up again for the 5th time in 2 1/2 years.
So approaching from Chester lane between 8 - 9 am on a school day there can be tail backs of 1/2 mile back to Sutton Manor. The traffic light for going across to Mill lane are on green for Just 22 seconds allowing 4 - 5 cars through. They’re then on red for 4 1/2 minutes, more if the pedestrian crossings are used. But if there’s a lorry or large van in the left lane turning left then to make the tight 90o turn they have to swing out into the right lane meaning zero cars can get to mill lane in that 22 seconds. What’s now happening is that cars turning left onto the dual carriageway can tail back onto the cyclops because of the traffic lights near the school. So some cars queuing on Chester lane to go straight on have now started speeding on the wrong side of the road to jump the queue of vehicles turning left, but this means they are “Head on” to cars leaving cyclops heading down Chester lane.
Add to this most people walking / cycling at this time are going to school, hardly any of them use the cyclops crossing they just wing it and run across, I’ve seen cars jumping the queue in frustration speeding through at 50 + mph with kids running across and it’s frightening.
Approaching from Sherdley park the traffic lights near the school are dangerous as there is a single traffic light on the right side of the road. Just behind it (about 10 feet) is a pelican crossing with two traffic lights either side of the road. Many times in the last 6 months I’ve seen the single traffic light on red but the two traffic light just behind change to green with cars driving off, in some instances almost colliding with cars coming from Elton head road (school).
The other exits / entrances are not much better, the 90o turns are too tight for large lorries meaning they have to swing out into the through lanes, but with such short green light times cars speed through often swerving away from the lorries.
One of the traffic lights was hit by a lorry within a week of it opening and on most days the trailer wheels of articulated lorries often mount the kerb because the turn is too tight in heavy traffic.
All this has been reported to the council by lots of people using it but to no avail. The problem is that if you use it at non-peak times it’s absolutely fine.
I'd probably use a different route entirely. Infrastructure tends to be added to main roads but we're pretty lucky down here to have some good alternative routes on quiet roads. 👍
Having watched all through I am wondering why they decided to go for sensors (which fail quickly) rather than a push button like a pedestrian crossing?
It seems to be they were “sold” this wonderful system by a sales person and like most high level sales negotiations it is a non technical person selling something technical to someone that like shiny new things. That whole area could’ve been much better designed with a good flow as well
I also wonder if they were going full Dutch with the design and then as it went through various departments in Highways and the council the fought over budgets so certain aspects were removed, changed, tweaked and as usual we are left with the half hearted attempt at cycle infrastructure.
We had a £1.6 million cycle upgrade where I am for two cycle lanes to be installed to and from the station into town. For the most part it is quite good but they missed a couple of things…cycle first lights at the traffic lights and lack of infrastructure if you turn right into town instead of going straight into the No Entry high street 🤷🏻♂️
Oh well, -they obviously know what they are doing-
Edit: Typed the wrong cost figure for our infrastructure
On the sensor / button, I think the inexperience of Liverpool with these is showing. It looks like it is timing rather than sensors or buttons.
In Manchester where they have a number of these and have had for several years, they seem to go for a request button as well.
Sensors are better because they can detect and switch the lights more intelligently whilst not requiring users to stop, dismount and push a button. Kind of like making vehicle traffic lights requiring drivers to stop, roll down the window and wave their arms around - automating the process is better in most cases.
light timings can be changed relatively easily. There are plenty of junctions in Bradford that would benefit from detecting cyclists 5-10m early and then adding a cyclist light to the sequence to cut down on waiting times.
@@GoodStreeets In NL, they use up to three detectors for approaching cyclists on one cycle path on occasion !
I think I may have followed it the first time, but if I encountered the same issues you did with the length of time waiting at lights I would just follow the road rather than the cycle lane.
It's as if this has been put in place poorly on purpose so that the trial fails. Once it has failed the powers that be will say no more, we tried.
The main issue is that these things are implemented by people at councils etc who never ride a bike, and have absolutely no idea about decent active travel infrastructure. They won't listen either. I've been having a hell of a time with my local council trying to get them to do the right thing. All they do is ignore you.
We have a vehicle-centric culture in the UK and the Highways departments do everything with vehicles in mind. In my local area they have even scrapped safety measures on new roundabout widening because they will 'impede traffic flow'. It's all about prioritising drivers, sod anyone else.
In relation to this example, it's interesting to note that it doesn't even meet the cycle infrastructure guidance requirements issued by the government. Cycle infrastructure is supposed to provide the most direct and efficient route, not a slower option that means you also have to travel further.
There are so many things wrong with this layout. No raised surfaces for the pedestrian and cyclist crossing points, slippery paint, kerbs lining the cycle path area, signals that still seem to prioritise vehicle traffic (in the Netherlands as you approach some lights by bike they change in your favour), cycle paths that disappear, and so on. A really poor, expensive effort.
All infrastructure like this does is further taint the image of cycling in this country and as you say, will add even more conflict points.
It won't be used and everyone will start saying 'waste of money, damn cyclists never use it, blah, blah, blah'. They won't understand the real reasons why it is crap though.
I'm wondering when the usual 'could have spent the money on potholes' comment will appear.
In summary, I agree with you. It's an expensive piece of poor infrastructure implemented by people who have no idea what they are doing, and who still think like car drivers.
I would like to point some things out. Firstly: Ashley is clearly a relatively competent cyclist. Investments such as these are NOT targeted at competent cyclists. They are targeted at those scared of riding their bikes because of the heavy traffic. These people will not mind if their wait is slightly long at the junction.
Secondly as more cyclists use the junction the timings can be adjusted to go green for cyclists more quickly.
I think that's the issue and a chicken vs egg situation. It doesn't make sense to prioritise cycle greens over car greens when cars make the overwhelming majority, but that decision to favour cars means cycling uptake will be lower.
As an experienced cyclist, I agree with your comments on bollards. The cycle lane is not swept and maintained. In a road bike I would use the road space.
22:55 should be a ‘turn left’ sign there, I think.
I always wonder if we had drains partiall built into the kerbs like in USA if that would also help.
Would it be faster to dismount and cross on foot? That way you get to press the button rather than rely on the sensors. Is it legal and safe to cycle through these junctions on the main road rather than the cycle path?
To answer your second question - yes it is legal to cycle through on the main road. Whether it's safe depends on your point of view. An experienced cyclist like myself would consider this fine, others, understandably, not so much.
Interesting light timing at 4:29. I wonder how many going straight or right will see the left turn changing and be going? I see in this instance it is done as the left turn lane as further back than the other lane so it maximises flow with minimal risk
I see this quite a lot where they are timed to allow time for junctions to clear for certain directions before changing but they can occasionally be a little eager in one direction and still have cars in the junction. So remember everyone…green means go if clear and not race away before the car next to you 👍
There is one set of lights near where I live where the left turn lights do a similar thing to that for traffic turning out of the store (and also traffic from the main road turning right into the store)
I always assumed the lights did that due to the pedestrian crossings (the lights for traffic turning left out of the store will not change if there are pedestrians waiting to cross the main road)
Cycle lanes sometimes make it seem like you're pushed down a pecking order inorder to tick some boxes. I get more punctures on cycle lanes than the road due to lack of upkeep. Also in winter there's often a build up of leaves that has caused a few cyclists to come a cropper. Sometimes it's a choice between a poorly swept cycle lane or clean tarmac and earache from ignorant drivers. There are routes I've dropped as I don't like the cycle lane provided.
Hi Ashley I have only just seen this video and I know you probably wont see this comment but if you do.. I'm a PHV driver in St Helens so I do this junction pretty much every day. I personally don't mind it too much as it's simple once you know the layout but if I wasn't from the area I'd probably find it a bit off-putting. Many people are against it and I don't really see why they changed it from the roundabout which flowed much better.
You came here at a quiet time, you should try it during school rush hour and it's an absolute nightmare. It is that bad that at the Sutton Academy you'll be waiting about 3 light cycles to turn right, then you'll be stuck in another queue. HGVs find the turning onto Mill Lane difficult and the lights have been knocked down a few times (keep reading). Lots of issues besides the HGV point. There are blind spots in the middle if you're waiting to turn right as your view of oncoming traffic is restricted by the opposite side also turning right. It is very dangerous.
It's nice to see it from a cyclists POV and I'm a little surprised by how stupid it is. Imagine if it was throwing it down with rain and you're sat there waiting for the cycle lights to change, I'd probably just go through when there's a gap in traffic.
At the start of August they have ammended the layout slightly to allow HGVs (and everything else) more room when turning in/out of Mill Lane. The layout has changed slightly since your visit but nothing major.
IMO, just a waste of money. Would of been cheaper, faster and safer to just create a bridge going over & around the edge.
Hi Ashley, I think your biggest gripe is with the traffic lights cause an unacceptably lomg waht for cyclists,, which I completly agree with
I noticed that on your final go around of the junction that the car lights were simultaneously red, and the bike lights were all green. It seems theoretically possible to sense when there is a bike approaching at each sub crossing and selectively stop just single streams of cars. Not sure if this wasn't done here, possibly policy/legal issues with that kind of non-standard traffic light sequence.
Overall I think from a cyclist point of view the junction itself is a step in the right direction in terms of infrastructure, as long as they fix the light timings.
As is mentioned by others, those bollards are useless in terms of keeping the road clear from debris but they also don't give enough space for cyclists to pass others.
Why aren't the 'cycle' lights fitted with a request button like the toucans and those for pedestrians instead of relying on sensors which don't always pick up when something is there.
I have in Colliers Wood a bit where the cycle lane is separated from the flow and the green light lasts 12 seconds and then one has to wait 2 minutes to see green again. I normally just stay in the car lane when I can see that it's just been green.
its simple for car users, until rush hour - I've been through it people just sit in the middle once the lights change an then the opposing traffic cannot move either. and these bollards are stupid too, its a great way to keep the roads of debris though.... may as well introduce a ditch instead.
Have you cycled in london in the psdt few years? Ive just started cycling in London and I've been plesantly suprised by the cycle infrastructure. It's nothing like this, but still accomodates bikes very well into the flow of traffic.
You can tell how successful is is by the number of cyclists who use it
It would be interesting to test the pedestrian areas of the cyclops as a pedestrian.
It looks like the pedestrian experience would be very similar to the cyclists, they will be stuck at crossings for 5 minutes and most will just ignore them and cross when they consider it safe.
At least you could go round anticlockwise as a pedestrian!
When I first moved to Stevenage New Town (back in 1962!) it had and, as far as I know, still has an extensive and continuous network of cycle lanes which are separated from the roads by wide green spaces and navigates all road junctions by taking the cyclist though wide underpasses. Obviously the town planners had the benefit of a clean sheet of paper and plenty of space. What I can't understand is the why cycle underpasses were not incorporated in the Cyclops design, as there seems to be plenty of space. This would also have been beneficial to pedestrians and motorists to aid the flow for every user. Missed opportunity I believe!
Segregated cycleways and footpaths were fashionable in many new developments back then. West Swindon was like that years ago, but several new traffic signal crossovers have been added more recently. Originally, traffic signals were rare in that area. Many underpasses acquired a reputation for use by certain types of people, and not popular to use by some.
WBC have just spent lord knows how much and caused months of tailbacks at Bewsey just near Warrington hospital doing something similar but on a smaller scale when the likes of Hawley’s lane just round the corner is deadly especially at dawn and dusk twilights owing to the amount of turn offs with no paint at all left on the road surfaces and potholes everywhere, it’s such a busy area it should warrant maintenance. The councils are happy if their boxes are getting ticked though.
Perfect summary of all the issues and I share your views, and stuff like that increases peoples perceptions that cyclists shouldn't on the roads, utter waste of money.
My first thought on the bollards was maybe mini bollards would be more appropriate but there's a risk of pedal strike when they are less in the periphery. In the Netherlands they use a raised kerb. Hopefully that 15mil included designing them so street sweepers can clean them. The colours definitely raise situational awareness for road users. The lights didn't give you enough time, if you were going right, to get through the next set so you would be waiting for 4 sets of car lights if turning right!! I reckon that's less than 5mil of work plus 10mil to their buddies in the construction industry!! Saying that, if they changed It to let the cycles go between each change of motor vehicle lights then It would improve but the current lights configuration will not only annoy cyclists when they wait for ages the first time they use it, it will annoy drivers because cyclists who have been there before will be with the drivers who will feel aggrieved that the cycles aren't using the lanes that were built for them at great cost. I think I would have picked up my bike and gone back to the main road making a mental note never to use the cycle lanes again. It is definitely build to keep cyclists out of the way of drivers rather than the other way round. It does meet the most important aspect of a road junction and that is to look pretty from the air 😂🤣. One positive, I really like your jacket, I think the colours look wicked! What make is it?
I hate the bollards the thing I found is they are so restricted if on a road bike and you need to move out or you clip one you are breaking something. When ive used them I've ended up moving out as my speed was the same as the cars at 30.
One thing on the flexposts is that it is normal for such things to be 900-1000mm high to make sure that they are visible in normal eye line.
Things at say knee height are quite a trip hazard.
If eg bollards in car parks are only that height, people reverse into them far more often.
There's one near me in North Tyneside (Rake Lane) and it's not traffic light controlled so the bikes have proper priority whatever way your cycling, however so often drivers fail to give way and the bike lane is usually blocked by queuing traffic. If you're ever up this way definitely worth a ride!
21:35 to inform you, there was a 2nd red signal there you ran through. If you pause the footage there is a solid stop line and bike signal hidden behind the road work pillar on the left which is red. You went through that and stopped at the 2nd signal and second stop line
If you are ever near Harlow in Essex, go and look at their system, it was built with cycling in mind when first designed. It may have changed since I was last there, but honestly, it worked. As to this, no, I'd be going around it the wrong way or use the main road
I live in Harlow and I disagree that the cycle infrastructure is any good.
I used to commute taking the cycle routes and I'd say there was only one portion fit for purpose. Nearly every section is gated off, making it awkward to use. If you're using a bike trailer then there's no chance. Pedestrians never use the pavement, especially dog-walkers who walk on one side while their dog, on a lead, is on the other. Apart from the one section I mentioned, the cycle routes are in a state of disrepair. I used to go through countless tyres and inner-tubes (unfortunately these areas attract a lot of yobs, so there's broken glass everywhere). There are dropped curbs at the gated-off entrances, but there are always cars parked there. At junctions with the road there are sometimes signs telling cyclists to dismount. What is the point of a cycle route if I can't cycle all of it? Some primary schools back on to the cycle routes, so they're littered not with kids, but mothers having their mothers' meeting.
If I use the shared/segregated paths then I have to navigate around street furniture: lamp posts, bus stops etc. I also have to avoid pedestrians because, again, pedestrians only use the area marked for cycles. There's not enough room to segregate it anyway. Even though cars are now supposed to give way at junctions, they don't, so every junction is an inconvenience.
This is why I just use the road.
@@ExtantThylacineHarlow pedestrians are infamous cycle-lane hoggers. The council needs to paint more white bikes onto the asphalt to make it easier to shoo pedestrians back onto the path 😈
It seems like a junction created just for the sake of being seen to be doing something to promote "active travel". Another confrontation point is pedestrians have to cross the bright green cycle lanes to get to the pedestrian crossing. I thought good road planning was to reduce risk and confrontation?
Furthermore, I think the only cyclists who may use the green cycle lanes are those less confident on the road because as you say, it seems to really slow down the ability to cross the junction.
I have to agree I do think given the amount of cyclists that use this junction, it’s a waste of money! I’ve used this myself a few times for my commute to work jumping off the train at the nearby station and waiting at the lights where Ash had enough of waiting and turned round. At those lights, sequence after sequence for the main road and red light behind a piece of taped up cardboard for me. Given the works to the multi storey car park to the left I thought ‘is it fit for purpose’.
Many of my colleagues at the nearby warehouse cycle and use Lea Green station and surrounding roads but I doubt very much waiting for the full 4-5 minutes to be given a green light.
I know lorry’s had difficulties turning left and right here and I can’t understand why. Other than the small area in the middle of the junction but I can’t.
Access for the pub was from the roundabout. Now you have to go through a keep clear box. How many times have they had a vehicle waiting in them when someone is turning into it.
I’m no fan of the slip road to the left from Clock Face Road onto Chester Lane.
I know of 7 in Greater Manchester but can’t say what they’re like
We are getting a new cycle lane to join other tracks, but pedal one wheel in town centre and get a fine.
I'm not sure that the problem is with the overall design. The problem is with the execution. If the cycles can't be detected then the lights will not change in their favour. Replacing the detectors with push buttons would go a long way to resolve the issues.
Timings and sensors can be altered. Adding push buttons to the cyclist lights immediately makes them less accessible and less intelligent
why do pedestrians have to cross cyclists?
13:10 The programming should favour cyclists, it's what they do mostly in .nl
Yes, 18:52 You should go first, and 10s later the cars should be allowed to turn. 15s don't matter to the cars. It could be 15s for you in the freezing rain.
wow, 19:52 a full minute after the first time you could've gone.
22:14 ya that's just stupid. They need to invest in sensors and traffic programming. If only they had a place to go and ask questions about these things. Guess they have to invent everything from scratch now....
I looked at the before aerial, and it's definitely safer, but not at all faster now. The only hope is because it's new they're going to adjust the timings.
I see they reduced the ped vs cyc conflict points by putting the walkway inside the cycle way, which is different from Dutch convention.
15:03 I'm missing priority markings on the street, for when there is a conflict between road users, or when the lights are out. I'd put in sharks teeth before the ped&cycle crossings cause they should have priority.
What are the plans for coming to the Netherlands? Any collabs with Dutch cycle ambassadors? ADI's? go outside the old Amsterdam please?
Nicely defined, coloured and obvious crossing points at 3:04. If only more was done like this at other points like side road junctions, cross roads and roundabout junctions.
Was that paint they used that will fade quickly and become slippery when wet or is it coloured tarmac that doesn’t change colour as quick and remains grippy(ish)?
The consultant's website says HRA with coloured chips, but yes, getting those details right is important.
Already the paint is wearing off, though!
And it's not looking like HRA from the video close ups :( Cheaper to coloured slurry seal it of course :(
Ash, not sure if you've seen the one in Preston. That one allows for cyclists & pedestrians after every general traffic movement. Also has push buttons in addition to the detection, just in case.
You spent too much time focussing on existing cyclists. Existing cyclists may well be comfortable using the road but the majority of the population would not be happy with this and that is the point of infrastructure like this. Vehicular cycling is not the answer to getting people cycling and your statement that eveywhere can not have cycle infra is just not true. Take a trip to the Netherlands and be proved wrong and no vehicular cycling to be seen. I agree there are issues with it, like long wait times but this is because of the UK mindset of prioritising motor traffic over others and is not a reason not to build it.
25:34 As you are talking about how long it took to get from one side to the other, a cyclist does what you nearly did (because of the straight arrow as you are about to join the bike roundabout) He went straight and cut out 10 minutes of waiting - which everyone is going to do - shortest path wins. It isn't about being the quickest or being in a rush or anything - sitting for a couple of minutes for a light versus riding around the corner in a protected area, although you are now on the wrong side of the road - but can just cross as if you were coming from the exit from the parking lot - even has a nice "Do not Block" area. As for the bollards, with what looks to be a higher speed road, having something to make car drivers pay attention is good - probably better to have raised it and had a split pavement/cycle area that the road sweepers can drive down and clean. Cars will avoid because of the kerb at high speeds.
It's a tuff one. After spending lots of time over the years in the Netherlands and seeing their great systems in action. Saftey is the main concern on the planning and often the flows are totally separated and that unfortunately causes delays but mainly cycles have there own network. In the uk that's just not possible in most cases and often many roads a not wide enough for cycle lanes at all.
Differences are they wait at lights and are very chilled where as in the uk many are not and don't wait at red lights. Constantly put themselves in danger but expect others to keep them safe.
Like you i ride sensibly and many don't and have a mindset ivenot got to ever stop as I'm on a bike or moped as in NL they use cycle lants also. Crazy how much money xan be found for this but is not available for more need local issues.
"In the UK that's just not possible..". You could've said the same in the Netherlands in the 1970s. Narrow roads exist there too.
What it needs is systemic thinking. Cyclists don't necessarily need to follow the main roads to get from a to b quickest. They don't need to impede on motor traffic or vice versa. Frameworks and standards is the UK's missing ingredient.
@@nivelanit's because the Dutch have long term planning about what the transport network should look like. I think this is a result of the archaic first past the post voting system in this country, it's all about winning the next election, nothing ever has a long term vision as a consequence, NHS etc.
An example would be Norwich where I live just built a new northern ring road, if the Dutch built that they would then look at the other routes that it intends to replace and make changes to them to make the new a better option, preventing through traffic etc. this results in less traffic and so lanes can be replaced with cycle tracks or traffic free routes. But in Norwich they just built the road and nothing else.
@@David-bi6lf Agreed. Dutch roads have a defined purpose and evolving standards exist to ensure that new ones are fit for purpose, and existing ones are maintained with it in mind. The only UK roads that have a defined purpose are motorways and cul-de-sacs, but even those are not usually fit for purpose.
The junction was previously a death trap for those cycling from Mill Lane and going towards Sutton Leisure Centre. Cars that had been bombing along the dual carriageway entered the junction at high speed meaning you had to take your life in your hands to get onto the junction on a cycle. Yes you have to wait a minute or two, but at least you're safe. Cycling along a straight road even without a cycle lane is far safer than crossing the junction that was previously there.
I love the drone shot at 25:30 where you say how long it took to get from THERE to HERE, while a cyclist approaching from the right solves the problem by just turning right and cycles the wrong way down the one way green lane. I presume he later randomly crosses the road to cycle on the left side. Brilliant! I always found it quicker to dismount at busy junctions and push your bike across pedestrian crossings anyway.
My major issue isn’t about how it’s redesigned, it’s that it’s worse than the previous junction that was there. If it offered any significant improvement over the previous junction, I’d be 100% in favour of it. At rush hours, traffic is far worse in my experience than the previous roundabout.
There are numerous other places in St Helens where a junction improvement would’ve made more sense, whether it’s a cyclops junction or otherwise.
Interesting to note that it wasn’t featured on my recent test at all.
Quick thought, who has priority at the end of the green cycle lane on your first ride through? First come, first served, as it were?
It stands for “Cycle Optimised Protected Signals” which I think is making the words fit the name. Would Cyclists and Pedestrian Priority/Protection junction not fit more easily?
I think the problem for driving tests would mainly occur during peak hours. Since the bus lane ends quite close to the junction (and is active up to 7pm), it's possible that you might get stuck in the right hand lane waiting for a spot on the left to open up, if traffic is really heavy.
I think that's in general the problem with the junction. It has created a lot more opportunities for congestion compared to the roundabout. 4:38 is an example where it could easy get jammed by a car trying to turn into the pub car park from the other direction, which is only 1 lane wide.
I know there used to be a problem with HGVs in general, with a lot of the turns causing a lot of issues during high traffic times, and some just being too tight to perform without hitting some infrastructure/pavement mounting.
My experience of it is from just before the thing officially opened in September. Had passed my test in June. Got my car in July. Was doing my first big drive in August, picking someone up that lives round the corner from the (yet to be fully open) cyclops junction before going to the Odeon in Warrington. This junction took that away from me. A rogue nail took out one of my tyres, after just 40 miles of driving in total (8 of which were getting to St Helens from my house). So this will forever be the junction that ruined my first proper road trip.
To be fair I do love the colour scheme. Especially on the bus lane line!
Great views.. any chance of trying to get an interview with the highways engineer who designed the junction and see what their design thoughts were...
surely if they put a button to press like a pedestrian crossing would be much better? or even a ground sensor?
Cycle lights need a push button trigger, same as the pedestrian crossings. Relying on sensors is folly.
Its quite interesting as you turn right from the traffic light to the road that leads to the Cyclops you have a bus lane on your left as shown by Ashley in the video. However if you were travelling from the left from Saint Helens and had Sherdley Park on your right you would again have the Bus lane on your left and a single lane 30mph road to travel on. There are blue signs on this stretch of road to indicate a bus lane and cycle lane from the hours of 7 am to 7pm . So after 7 pm a car can go into the bus lane and travel all the way down to the Cyclops. However if you turned right onto the road Ashley did, there are no signs to indicate this so drivers find this confusing somewhat and stick out of the bus lane although the earlier signs say you can after 7 pm.
As a resident that lives very close to the Cyclops it is seen by many as a white elephant and a lot of money spent on that looks very green and red in places.
Bollards alongside cycle lanes do create separation and keep out vehicular traffic, but they also keep out road sweepers. Hence all the rubbish and debris that collects. there
24:35 the cycle path crossing lights changed, just as you got to into them. A slower cyclist is, I assume, to wait at each road section crossed. The point of joining traffic if you're traveling straight across seems stronger in that particular case.
what an absolute dog's dinner! it would have been cheaper to simply upgrade the existing island to dutch style with the cycle island outside the vehicle island with the matching priorities.
I loved your reaction! Thats it im going home! Its like looking in a mirror, i would forever avoid that route or dismount and take the pedestrian way through! Either way it sucks the fun out your day!
On videos like this it would be interesting to interview the locals. Ask them if they know about the reasoning behind the traffic infrastructure and what their personal experiences are like.
Is that a giveway line on the cycle path at just after 16 mins? Why? The road continues. Is it because of a bus stop? Ludicrous!
As a delivery driver I recognise that one cylist represents obe less car jorney . Therefore 10 cylists at a busy junction means 10 less cars. Which means 1 less traffic sequence for to get the junction. So see the benifits of space for cylists. Therfore for cycles to use the space the lights must priortise cylists and increasing safety and reducing journey times for everyone.
I had thought the cyclists would have a push button like the pedestrian crossing sections.. However even then, on junctions like this they are phased with the lights and it will change when it goes through the sequence. Could be a tweak to the phasing would change the frequency for the bikes, I'd have thought if it had picked up someone was waiting then you'd have gotten one turn each for motorists and cyclists before looping back to the motorist movements.
If I had been waiting for that period I might have been tempted to dismount and try the pedestrian route just to see if it was quicker.
cycle lanes are like hard shoulders & kerb sides in general, all the debris gets thrown/washed into them & rarely get cleaned out
Love how your jacket matches the bike lane!
The problems with the sensors and wait times do not mean that the layout is fundamentally flawed. It works well in the Netherlands, and we have a good example in Cambridge
This is the problem I've also noticed with sensor-activated cycle infrastucture. I have learnt a trick with the sensors though, If you look up at the sensor then they normally have a red led on them which lights up when something is detected. I've noticed at some places they have a back up button next to the stop line which will light up to show that you've been seen as well as being there in case you aren't seen so you can press the button instead
The bus lane marking is a white line, with two red lines directly each side of said white line. That is interesting , its it currently an "official" marking , and if not might be worth making official for lanes which are 24/7 and those that have reduced hours of operation (not a lot of use for bus lanes that dont have regular late bus services for example
Perhaps they should go for “part time” signals at that sort of junction, as they do on some roundabouts, with the signals being black when the traffic is light?
I think the bike junction is brilliant for novice cyclists, they would have the confidence to negotiate this junction
What do you think of the infrastructure disappearing on certain arms after the junction?
@@ashley_neal yes, I agree it runs out and there are examples of daft starts and finishes to cycle lanes that are simply more dangerous than if they were not there in first place. I presume with time we will see more infrastructure and move toward Dutch and Scandinavian models. Like you say, all road users need to be aware of Highway Code and common sense goes a long way!
The 2 sets of Cyclops junctions in Cambridge seem better, the lights don't seem to be as long a wait as this one, and the cycle lanes are longer and better, most of the cycle lanes are segregated by a kerb, and go all the way alongside most roads or through meadow areas in the city. They also have a Dutch roundabout, lots complain about, but if as a cyclist you keep an eye on what the drivers are doing instead of just blindly going round it's OK, most drivers now use it properly.
I’m a cyclist but have avoided it, it’s quicker to go a different route.
Thanks for giving it a go.
The issue is not the junction but the traffic lights themselves. Normally on this type of junction (which comes from the Netherlands btw) is supposed to give cyclists the priority green phase (meaning that if they show up, the light should go red for cars soon).
In fact I would argue that they should have kept it as a roundabout and built a cycle roundabout around it like the Dutch do. It’s much safer and is anyways proven to handle traffic better.
I'm torn by this. I prefer the idea of a dutch style roundabout because it gives cyclists priority (and there's not many bikes to hold up cars at the moment), but having lights for bikes does mean less-confident cyclists that don't want to risk cycling across a junction and trust that motorists stop, can use the junction.
@@JWK35 I see your point, but drivers will drive slower in a roundabout than a straight intersection so they're actually more likely to stop when required. Furthermore, you can't argue with the fact that roundabouts are objectively safer than a similarly sized standard traffic light junction. Even the multilane roundabouts!
You could even add cameras on each exit of the roundabout to intimidate drivers to stop, which would probably increase the percentage of drivers who stop. In my experience, more ppl stop for you at roundabouts than traffic lights (when the traffic lights r not filtered off course).
11:05 wot on earth? The stop line is so close to the zebra crossing that you have to wait before it unless you either unlawfully stop on the crossing or cross the stop line whilst the lights are red!
Here in New Zealand they place a button for cyclists to push. It lets you go, while putting on a short red filter arrow for turning cars.
They've come so close to getting it right. The reason the protected "intersections" work in the Netherlands and other euro countries is because A. The signalling is done to not prioritise the car traffic over bikes and B. The cars have to yield to anyone proceeding through the bike lane before they cross it, even if they have a green light. Pair it with presumed liability in law (i.e. a car is presumed to be at fault and liable if colliding with a bike or pedestrian) then cars treat bikes with respect on these junctions.
Fixing the lights is a near zero cost fix, but changing British driver attitudes to not see somebody as the enemy just because they got on their bike instead of in their car that day is the biggest challenge.
I agree with you that it's not great for the lanes to just disappear after the junction but at the same time, the majority of accidents happen at junctions so if we need to get it right anywhere, it should be at big junctions like this.
The green lane marking doesn’t seem to be very hard wearing, it’s clearly worn off in a few spots. I wonder what they’re going to look like after two or three winters. The question I have is whether there was a pressing need for the junction redesign, was it an accident black spot? What other schemes did the local authority consider before they came up with that? And did no one consider that as cyclists are well known for jumping red lights (far more common round my way than to see a cyclist wait) do those cycle lights actually place the cyclists in more danger of a collision with a car when they do jump the light?
My main concern with this junction is on my motorbike; those painted cycle and pedestrian lanes seem really hazardous if they're wet. I am very anxious about riding over them in the dry, let alone the wet. They don't seem textured at all unless someone who knows better can correct me.
The design approach of these kinds of junctions is complicated. Not so much the engineering, but the "politics".
The aim of putting the effort into the junction design is to make it suitable for "not cyclists". People using bikes for transport that would not be happy to mix with traffic - after all that's the only way you can make any change in user numbers away from cars for short trips. As Ashley says though, that can get a design where existing "cyclists" who are happy(ish) in traffic are too inconvenienced by the junction to use the layout.
The actual intended approach for these junctions would be for the bike crossings to have cyclist detection, so that the lights will change to favour the crossing as a bike approaches it, with short or ideally no delay. That then swings things round so that it's to the advantage of all cyclists to use the coloured tracks and crossings, as that is usually going to be as fast or faster than sticking to the road.
The politics of course is the resulting reduction in traffic capacity and "flow" for motor vehicles. There is a trade off, and the trade off by all governments' policies is supposed to be in favour of the pedestrian and bike traffic, its only the reality that gets in the way.
Some light controlled junctions are good ideas but spoiled through poor sequencing which never gets updated.
As a pedestrian, I waited at a local button controlled crossing a while back mainly out of curiosity because it was not very busy. The lights went through 2 complete cycles & I was still waiting for a green. This was very close to a T junction for a nearby superstore where nothing can enter because everything is held at red (even though one has a dedicated lane) then both directions are green so the traffic has to merge.
I’ve noticed there are some that have a sensor where if it doesn’t detect someone waiting, it will cancel the request
And there are others that are faulty and skip the sequence (I have seen this happen before, including at the traffic lights to an entrance to an Asda Store (where I ended up having to dart across when the lights turned green for traffic exiting the store car park and hope nothing was turning left))
We have these in Manchester too and whilst they're push button, I see a similar issue with waiting when I cycle across it. I do see the benefit for less confident users like children and can imagine in school commuting times it could be pretty popular.
Very interesting! Good idea on paper but in practice just an inconvenient expense.
You should do a video in Amsterdam and cycle! Apparently they’re good for cyclists are they not.
@@looksgoodhossin my experience all the Dutch cities I have been to have really great infrastructure, also (importantly) between many cities there are often separated high quality routes, and they sweep and maintain them.
Any cycle infrastructure which doesn't consider cyclists first is going to get ignored or abused.
There's new lanes and lights installed by me which I don't use because I know it's quicker to go through with the cars. Where possible I'll stay in the protected Infra then nip back into traffic at the lights to get across the junction quicker.
In my town even the good cycle paths never get swept. All they have to do is go look at how Amsterdam does it. The bikes just flow those.
26:21 The fact that you exclude pedestrians (because they're usually on the pavement) is I think exactly the point of this kind of infrastructure, though. You should be able to cycle just like you can walk - on segregated paths away from cars. This should be made accessible to everyone. Some people will never be comfortable riding with cars, and that should be respected, even if you may feel perfectly fine cycling on the road instead. The road infrastructure in the UK can definitely be turned around to follow the Dutch example, noting that the Netherlands only started incrementally introducing these kinds of steps in the 1980s. It doesn't happen overnight but it most definitely isn't impossible to implement step-by-step in the upcoming years.