My EIKI Telecine 16mm Transfer Setup
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- čas přidán 4. 11. 2021
- You asked for it - You got it! A detailed look at the process I have set up in the lab for transferring my 16mm film archive to the CZcams channel. We look at the EIKI model NT-0T 30fps Telecine projector, and compare it to my Bell and Howell model 2585 24fps projector. I also take the curtain aside and reveal the hidden magic of the analog set up on The Big Table that I use to transfer film to video. Enjoy!
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Thanks for sharing this! I was wondering exactly how this was done. It sure takes dedication!
@@fullredplatinum Actually doing tapes didn't require that for me. The steps were:
1) Record a whole side.
2) Run script on the recording.
2A) With sox convert to a mess of numbers "raw" data
2B) Find the gaps and break the file up
2C) Convert each broken out section into its own audio file with attributes of the initial recording
3) Listen to each to assign names
I converted all of my tapes that would still play into audio files with that method.
With dedicated transfer scanners available, I wonder if those are worth the money unless you have thousands of films to transfer. And then I guess, this setup easily provides superior quality.
@@fullredplatinum that's what I meant althoug my sentence ended up slightly confusing. Her setup sure creates higher quality than an all in one machine. Or if there is a machine creating comparable quality, I assume it is prohibitively expensive, at least for this format of film. Or they are just not up to par with maybe a 2 MP CMOS sensor for a camera, plastic lenses etc.
Transfer scanners for still images, either slides or even strips of negatives, that create superb quality, including automatic removal of scratches and lint etc. seem to be a different story. Those handling slide magazines come at about 1000 to 1400 Euro I think, depending on the software version coming with them. If fine with loading each slide on its own,. There are adapters for slr cameras or scanners in the range of 150 to 200 Euro creating great quality. Anything lower seems to be either no fun to use, flawed by plastic built mechanics that break after few images or just overall crappy quality.
@@fullredplatinum true, it's amazing how we get spoiled with today's conveniences, back in the day I wasn't bored at all copying from LPs to cassettes which I hardly can do now 😅
@@alexanderkupke920 There's quite a few reasons you'd want to use a frame-by-frame scanner, especially for negatives.
Firstly, Super16 uses the soundtrack area for a 16:9 frame, and Ultra16 is more like 21:9, extending all the way across the film so the frame is shorter vertically and sits between the sprocket holes. The projector will generally be 4:3 unless you widen the gate and presumably other parts of the optical path.
Secondly, they're usually roller drive rather than sprocket drive, and this means it'll work even if the film is warped. I would also expect it to be gentler on a negative than running it through the entire film path for a sound projector. If you're developing and scanning negatives in 4K for clients I'd expect them to be using something like that rather than a projector/camera rig, and you'd hopefully be amortising the cost of the unit over a large number of clients.
However it'll be less than ideal for doing a sound film transfer, especially with a mag stripe - the projector setup would work better for that.
Remarkable quality, Fran. I, too, was that 10-year old who knew how to run the projector at school (early 1950s), and ended up running the film department at WGBH for a while. This brings back so many memories. Most programming was on film. The highlight of my life there was when management finally allowed me to buy electric rewinds which, I note, you wisely have.
Are you kidding? Three out of five frames are blended.
Holy crap the narration on the promo is hilarious!
The 1950s and 60s really were another world.
This has been a FranLab Production
Narration: Fran Blanche
Hands: Fran Blanche
Director: Fran Blanche
Script: Fran Blanche
Director of Photography: Fran Blanche
Lighting: Fran Blanche
Sound: Fran Blanche
Editor: Fran Blanche
Sets: Fran Blanche
Props & Equipment: Fran Blanche
Technical Advisor: Fran Blanche
And I like it this way. We know it will be done right.
Thanks! Brought me back to my days of running the AV department at my college. The AV room was also the projection room for the main theatre. I was responsible for putting in the order for the films used in classes and I would order things I wanted to see and project them on to the main screen and watch them from the projection room with the theatre empty. Such fun!
So much fun!! And the people who didn't understand what you were doing thought it was magic and probably hard work.
@@WDCallahan Ha! I wish. They though everything should work all the time and if it doesn't then it's my fault and you know what thirty years later people haven't changed, they might even know less now.
@@BrianBoniMakes
I know the feeling; I was a projectionist for a University's film Dept for 14 years...
B&H were standard classroom-issue 16mm in the 1970s before VCRs became affordable.
I was the "projector kid" starting in 3rd grade (1973) who knew how to thread the projector properly and was "that kid" until HS in the early 1980s when we started using VCRs.
There was an entire department in our large SoCal school district (Garden Grove School District) which had a huge library of films which were shuttled between the dozens of schools in the district.
Ah, the avoidance of burned biscuits. Always a worthwhile endeavor. Cine-tastic!
No burned Biscuits, no tears! Tears of laughter!
Nice setup; I wonder about the "opposite end" (camera, recording, processing) too :)
I had assumed you were digitizing these! fantastic work.
Thank you for sharing this, it was the first thing that came to mind, but everyone else was either scanning the film directly or going frame by frame in a modded projector where I was looking..
Thanks Fran!
Thank you
Fran, I don't know the nuances, but I can find them if you ask. My brother used to run a "film chain" for Films Incorporated. Their setup was (pretty much) like you have, but with a very important (and curious) difference. The whole setup was columnated, and was shooting right toward the throat of the camera. They set IP the "ground glass" and focused the camera and the projector. When the setup was ready, they removed the ground glass (or in your case, vellum). The camera picked up the virtual image with no intermediate "screen". Let me know if you want more info...
Thank you so much for saving and sharing this media!
Thanks! Very cool!
Another cooking triumph with Fran:) Thank you!
Cool! Great job! Also nice to know how much she loves her oven.
I love that you've made this video. I watched a few of your 16mm uploads and was super curious.
Most wonderful creation Fran.
Me and Fran have the same little flashlight. We’re basically teammates at this point.
Fran, that was fantastic. Thanks so much for showing this to us... another mystery revealed!
Been loving these.
beautiful.
Great video Fran
Very Interesting
Good job Fran!!
Awesome set up. Thanks for the tour. Definitely inspires me to do something about transferring the 50+ years old Super 8's I've been sitting on - at least I picked up a projector years ago.
This was super helpful to see
Thanks for putting in the effort to archive these. Im of the post-film generation, but I know my school had a film vault, I always wondered what was stored in there. the film isnt getting any younger, so Im glad your archiving what you can whilst the machines are still working and the film is intact. I find it very interesting, I have audio recordings almost 50 years old that have gone from tape to cassette, transferred to CD, compressed to MP3, then DVD, HDD, USB Flash, and now live on SSD. I can be fairly sure in 30 years time, I'll be able to pull those files up on my bionic brain implant and still hear those recordings. not so with this stuff, if you dont have a clockwork machine and a whole room to watch it in, assuming the ravishes of time haven't dissolved the data, the data is gone. Archive it, so It can be remembered. even if it is as archaic as tears over burnt cookies from an inferior oven. Thats kinda what makes it interesting. Its fast and easy to make backups of these recordings, CD's sent to relatives, RAID arrays, a flash drive in a safe, many redundant copies. its just oral family history, but pretty cool to hear your grandfather at your own age making jokes n cheeky innuendos at your grandmother, when youve only known them as sick old folk. they were hip young things to at one stage. I particularly like my grandmother had her 'stern rebuke' voice down pat, but layered in with a schoolgirl giggle. I wonder how much other family history has been lost, Im just lucky I come from a long line of nerds. my nieces and nephews (maybe own children) will know the sound of their great grandparents flirting. puts the phrase "a glimmer in your fathers eye" into new perspective.
This is great fun!
Back in the 80's and 90's we had these same projectors in both elementary and high school. The funny thing was that the older teachers could thread a projector in seconds, but they couldn't figure out how to get the VHS or BETA to work lol. The younger teachers couldn't thread the projector and if they could they would do it wrong and the sound would be out of sync and they never got the focus sharp, but could do the TV/VCR no problem. I was always to the rescue and very eager to help as I loved all electronics. Great video Fran, and a nice treat to walk down memory-lane!
Thats pretty cool Not saying it was easy. But the whole process is a lot simpler than I was expecting. Had no idea it was just "point camera at projection, hit record". Assuming one has the right type of flicker less projector it seems like a fairly accessible DIY process.
No burnt biscuits, no tears.... oh my!!! Great video Fran, I started my career as a Telecine Colorist in Tribeca so of particular interest to me. Cheers, and stay groovy!
It's good all these old films are geting archived an shared on CZcams I love watching these old films shows how much people cared for there product an the life of everything not so much anymore I like to try this I'm the fire if I ever get ahold of old 16mm films
You taught me a lot today. Thanks for that.
Thats Awesome Fran.
I did over 12 hours of my dads home movies years ago.
Its a lot of work. But worth it.
Hi Fran....glad to hear that you endorse the Bell & Howell. I have a 2592 which comes with a remote stop action and speakers built into the cover with places for extra projector lamp and exciter lamp as well. Have many 16mm films bought from previous collectors whom have passed on now. Lots of Hollywood feature films, Warner Bros cartoons and tv shows which are 30 mins in length. Some of the tv shows are from the 1950's including commercials that aired then. It is a fun hobby !!!
Thanks so much for that explanation. A direct telecine projector makes it so much easier. No need for frame-by-frame capture or post-transfer conversion to 30 fps (well, 29.97).
And frame-by-frame would be a nuisance for sound-on-film, since you'd have to capture the sound in a separate pass, then re-synch the soundtrack in post. Yuck. This EIKI does it all in one pass. Super cool!
Historical documents, these. It's more than cool that you take the time and effort to digitize them and post them on here. It's important, even. I'm constantly rather skint, but if I weren't, I'd support this financially.
My setup used an angled mirror and a nylon type focus screen. Worked well, and automatically put everything in correct orientation.
Years ago I telecined a load of 16mm club visuals I made and used back in the 90s, wish I’d had your set up back then 😍
Very interesting and informative! Nicely done.
Awesome Fran, thanks for sharing how it's done. You have magnificent equipment and the way your transfers are done is just wonderful.
Cool vids Fran.
Thank you so much Fran...and thank you Patreon folks!
I wanted to comment on your show about the 60 Hz electromechanical line frequency meter. You'd mentioned the damping mechanism early. Since these meters were mounted directly on, or very close to generators, you had to isolate them pretty well from mechanical vibration. Vibrating reeds were used for a number of other applications as well. The old Motorola MOTRAC vhf radios used actual harmonica reeds to both generate and decode the audio frequency PL (private line) tones. The two modules that did this were the Vibrasender and the Vibrasponder. Very cool, very reliable technology for decades.
Not at all what I was expecting, but fascinating none the less! Thanks again, Fran. Your channel is fantastic!
I worked on many Eiki 16's back in the day and attended a factory training seminar. They were welcomed by the faculty for their simplistic nature of the slot load. They certainly did have their problems though.
Nice
Thank you, this was great, I have a lot of family films that I would like to do this kind of setup on to record them. stuff from the 30s, 40s, and 50s.
Back in the day I was always looking for an EIKI projector, never found one. Jealous! I did buy a pallet of two dozen Bell & Howell 16mm sound projectors for $10 at a government auction. Same auction I bought a pallet of 12 Tektronix scopes for $20 and sold them to engineering students at my college for $100/each. They don't make auctions like they used to in the old days. :)
worked on Very many of those B&H projectors. 1550 and 1560s were tuff!
Just started using a Kodak REELZ film digitizer for 8mm and super 8 film. Results so far have been VERY good, even with some of my films that are nearly 70 years old.
What an amazing fuss !
I've only videoed one film. I used a bog standard Bell & Howell and a Sony CCD V100. I didn't get flicker (due to the Sony camera not making flickery videos) and the result was perfectly acceptable. The guy I did it for just asked how I'd got rid of the sound of the projector !
No, I didn't waste time levelling the projector.
No I didn't waste time levelling the camera.
No, I didn't waste time aligning the camera or projector to be perpendicular to the screen - all three of these issues are 'taken care of' by having the camera and projector light paths as close to each other as possible - this deals with all errors including keystone.
But I did connect projector sound to the recorder audio input. Something you didn't mention ! didn't use back projection either - it's not as good as front projection as passing through the screen will blur the image.
The quality of your transfers is amazing! The picture is steady and the light is even all the way across. Most of your transfers are apparently of some really well kept film too; I see hardly any scratches, dust or damage. Excellent work!
Yeah I noticed that too. Also the gate weave seems to be minimal too. Wonder if she is doing some post processing to minimize that movement. I wonder how much cleaner this would look with a 4K camera vs full HD. I understand the extra cost involved. But I wonder what kind of difference it makes on these 16mm films if you would be able to tell. Or just capture more film grain than actual resolved image quality.
A TV station I worked for had a muti-projector telecene setup still in the corner in the late 90s. Wasn't used anymore and within a year or two it was dismantled. They had a massive steel plate the entire setup was bolted to beneath the raised computer floor to keep vibration down and for leveling, similar to how Fran has her table setup totally level. But with this setup you could walk around it or past it without disturbing the whole thing. Designed with the idea as one film started you could then load the next film up. And it was rock solid. It had an optical switch to direct film chain one or two into the dedicated video camera. I regret that hole setup was tossed out. I should have taken one of the projectors and the optical switcher/screen setup and camera rig mount. It would have come useful later as HD transfers of film became more desirable. The film projectors had liquid scratch removal feature too. All you would have needed was a brand new HD or 4K camera 20 years later. Everything else would have stayed the same. But even one projector and optical assembly would have been a lot to lug around, considering I didn't have a film collection or archive to match like Fran does.
@@marcusdamberger I've seen at least one setup where the camera and projector were purposely NOT perpendicular to a reflective screen. By having the camera and projector at equal but opposite angles, it compensates for the keystoning of the picture, and it's not necessary to compensate for the image being mirrored.
Another great video. Well thought out and well presnted. Thank you Fran!
I find many of your videos very sober, and it is about the former craftsmanship. With emphasis on past!
Because the craftsmanship all over the world is being lost!
one day we will suffer the disadvantages of that.
Healthy and Friendly Greetings from NL
Rob
Thank you for doing this. I realize what a huge effort it is and appreciate you doing this.
Those old Kodak low profile auto load projectors never failed to thread film properly. Never bunched up.
A very interesting video. I have a number of family 16mm films to transfer. One is of my parent’s wedding in 1946 and my grandfather’s sailing on the maiden voyage of the Queen Mary. I have a Specto type A projector made in the town, Windsor UK, where I live. It has double sprockets so only runs double perforated film.
Another video triumph !
Thanks so much Fran for doing this! These videos are very much appreciated. I had no idea how this transfer was actually done; when you first started talking about the Eiki, I thought it wasn't a projector at all, just a "direct to video" machine (like it had a video cam directly on the other side of the film as it was running thru the "projector). Incredible amount of dedication to produce quality transfers -- THANK YOU!!
Eiki used to make an early CCD internal camera transfer unit. Rare but the quality back then was long pre HD…
Beautiful projectors, both.
Such a simple, yet elegant setup. Nice one Fran.
Those old adds, she will love her new oven... Great stuff, couldn't get away with now. How times have changed, for the better on the whole but to far and to woke now. Nice video thank you
i think my grandparents had the J303 for possibly most of the time they lived in the house they bought in 1954, and spent the rest of their lives with.
This was very cool to see! I wish I had an actual telecine projector. It would make my job a lot easier.
I have a vintage GE oven in my kitchen with some of the same features shown in the film.
My grandmother owned the same model or one very similar.
This is so cool. Glad you are doing this as these films are our countries history and should be documented and saved. Fran you're a great teacher and I enjoy your channel content immensely. Keep up the great work and be well.
This is so cool! There are so many films that have been "professionally" transferred and come nowhere near the quality that you have achieved, you obviously love what you're doing and it makes all the difference
Nice setup! ! 👍 lol "no burnt biscuits, no tears just another cooking triumph" 😂
I'm voting for an eighth day of the week called Franday. Anyone second?
I'd put some black card on the table before the vellum screen. Eliminate a bit of ghosting on the screen.
I’m a sucker for vintage educational films. I might have just found a new hobby.
Very impressive Fran! Your attention to detail yields perfect results! I love the vellum use for the screen. I was thinking of using the light diffuser sheet(s) from a trashed LCD flat panel TV when I do my setup, it's only for my old 8 and super 8 films though.
That's a nice setup!! I have a Bell & Howell 1580 and a couple of Telex Instaload XLs. I prefer slot loaders. The 1580 and one of the Telexes have some issues that need attention. It's been way too long since I've watched anything from my small 16mm collection, and even longer since I've added anything to the collection. You may inspire me to rectify one or more of those situations.
i started my first job as an AV Tech in the 80s and was trained to repair B&H TQ1 TQ2 and TQ3 projectors .They always had an issue with a cracking main drive worm gear that had to be replaced with a nylon one.this would involve complete disassembly and re syncing the shutter with the drive chain.I always thought the EiKi NT! and ST1 machines were far better and easier to maintain
Roll em, Ferndock!
Wow, fantastic setup! I really appreciate your attention to detail. No wonder the transfers look so good.
I'm wanting to do this with an 8mm projector but I want to eliminate the screen component and instead use a mirrorless/shutterless camera with a macro lens to point right into the gate (possibly at a right angle using a diagonal first-surface mirror). My idea is to drive the projector at a slower speed with an external motor and reduction gear and rig the camera's "shutter" release to be triggered from the camera mechanism so that the whole rig can run at arbitrary speed. The projector's lamp would be replaced by a much lower wattage lamp and it would shine onto a diffuser behind the film plane. This will of course result in thousands of still images but they can be processed into video and also, keeping those images means that any present or future AI upconversion can be performed. Could also pull a stunt with a modified flatbed scanner but that would be incredibly slow.
Thanks for this Fran. I'm a newbie to 16mm having bought and restored an old B&H TQ1 earlier this year. I've wanted one since 1973 when I first saw one in my secondary school. Your projectors look in pristine condition.
Let me guess. You and all the kids in class were always excited when the teacher would show a film. Some years ago I bought a B&H teal green projector just like the ones they had in my elementary school. Kind of brings back that child dream of actually having one of these space age projectors. I used my to "telecine" a 16 mm film by Rockwell of 1978 release about the Shuttle orbiter Enterprise ALT.
@@wrightmf The majority of my class weren't interested in film time. I was more in awe of the projector than the film, but yes, I loved film days.
You are so awesome in so many ways, Fran. Thank you for all you do and share. You're a wealth of knowledge and inspiration.
I was one of the one's who asked for this but you left out how you capture the sound.
Obviously it's not a mic set up to capture the sound coming from the projector speaker and you have it fed directly to the camera somehow or is it a completely separate process?
The telecine has direct audio output from the optical sensor.
@@FranLab oh, cool!
Thx
great tips like see you did small size the smaller the screen size the sharper the image
Fran...a couple of points...normal 16mm portable projectors often use 3-wing shutters, not 4 (never seen one with 4)...larger "pedestal" type projectors would go to a 2-wing shutter to get the light.
As to 2-perf claw versus 3-perf claw. 2-perf has the advantage that is more accommodating for shrunken film. 3-perf has the advantage that less stress is put on each perforation as the force is distributed over 50% more perforations. I have seen both work very well. High end projectors like Kinoton, Eastman 25 will have intermittent type movements. Eiki tried to use an intermittent but it was never as good as their claw movement.
As for lensing, the Eiki's lens size is not an issue for either quality or light throughput. Most professional 16mm projectors use the 42.7mm diameter lens barrel that Eiki also used. The exact same lenses used in professional 35mm could be used in an Eiki (Schneider Optics, one of the preeminent cinema lens manufacturers made an adapter to be able to use their Cinelux line of lenses in Eiki mounts and one would have to use a collar if they wanted to put that into an Bell and Howell. ISCO, the other preeminent professional projection lens manufacturer also made lenses for the Eiki mount, including their incredible Vario-Kiptaron 20-60mm (by far, the best projection lens ever made for 16mm...even better than fixed EF lenses). If you ever get the chance to get your hands on the ISCO Vario-Kiptaron 20-60 (and it has to be that model and EF or you'll get the "coke-bottle" A/V type), it will be worth it. And, it can be adapted to your B&H with a collar.
Fran knows what she is talking about.
I understand that much of the legislation documentation held in the houses of Parliament is written on Vellum (calf skin if memory serves). Apparently it doesn't degrade like paper does, or something like that.
Nice video! have the same Bell and Howell, I rather like it, it projects a very bright image.
I know what you mean I did my film and videos images transfers 15yrs worth took me 6 months everyday glad to be done with that
I was in high school when they were trying to transition from film to video, except the video was EIAJ 1/2 inch black and white, and of course there was not comparison. Naturally today, we realize that most film transfers quite well to HD video, while NTSC video is, well, stuck in (low) Standard Definition.
Wonderful video. I'm glad to see you're preserving these old films since they'll never be re-produced. Question - Does the audio go directly to the camera or do you pump it through your Fender Bassman first? LoL.
Brilliant, thankyou...one of the very best channels on youtube..endlessly interesting and well presented, thanks Fran!
Very interesting process and not at all what I expected. From what I understand, the frame rate conversion was required back in the days when NTSC TVs couldn't handle anything but 30 fps. And in PAL regions, film was simply sped up to 25 fps.
But now that playback devices / software can handle video files with pretty much any frame rate, wouldn't it make sense to keep the original 24 fps?
There are HD cameras that record at 24 FPS now, but they cost far more than this one. A 30 FPS projector into a 30 FPS camera is more than adequate for these 16mm films.
Wow, always interesting, Fran. On a side note, now I know how not to burn my biscuits anymore! Oh, joy!
I would of believed Fran used a telecinema device they used in tv stations to transfer film to any other format
So good of you to keep these rare 16mm films on history, populux, and general interest. Certain to bring joy to those who enjoy the past as well as the present.
My wife was surprised when I pulled the oven door off. In her whole life she didn't know they came off. The safety freaks have made them put screws in that now have to be removed. I was good and didn't "lose" them.
...Cheers...
Some content doesn't age well. Some content started off kind of bad. The up selling ovens stuff seems to check both boxes. The sexism is so thick it nearly drips off it onto the floor.
I really like the explanation of the setup. You didn't mention the matching between lens types and the distances to the screen. There was no pin cushion effect so clearly you have that correct in your setup too.