Joshua Schmidt Reacts to ARE THE YU-GI-OH TIME RULES BROKEN? - Magical Hats
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2024
- Original Video: • ARE THE YU-GI-OH TIME ...
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#JoshuaSchmidt #stream #yugioh
While I agree with the sentiment of "Time rules make LP matter somewhat, as opposed to now where they're somewhat meaningless," time rules right now literally encourage Konami to make LP matter less. Any deck that interacts meaningfully with LP, like Dinomorphia, Vampire, Evil Eye, even P.U.N.K. debatably, is at a disadvantage against the rules themselves. If you're playing a deck that uses LP as a resource and it's game 3, you are effectively being punished by the rules, because if you or, more importantly, your opponent plays too slowly, you may be given a loss regardless of whether you were in a winning position, because the way your deck gets to a winning position is by lowering your LP. By attempting to make LP matter in a rules sense using flawed time rules, you make it so LP can't matter much in a card design perspective.
It also makes decks that have random burn effect so much better, I don't feel threatened by Longyuan burning me for 1200, but I do feel threatened by a Swordsoul player with 15 mins on the clock
@@danyx1980 100% agree. I hate looking at a new pushed archetype and looking for the card that randomly burns for no reason just for time. I also hate running Cowboy or whatever the most accessible burn card the deck has instead of something that will actually come up more often.
@@danyx1980 Alternatively, you have cards that give LP for seemingly no reason but to take advantage of time rules, such as Advent of Adventure.
How did this one come after all the other reacts lol
I believe the recent ones were published shortly after the relevant stream, and those from before J.S. started publishing these clips were published in reverse chronological order.
That's exactly the first thing I thought when I started watching
Time rules even suck in locals. There are dozens of games that I absolutely should’ve lost that I ended up winning because of the time rules, and it feels shitty every single time.
Fusion summon masquerade feels so bad as a win con. I do it though and I will absolutely do it again.
The game I won with lucky mills off Marincess Springirl in main phase 1 a few weeks ago still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. There's also that game were we tied cause the Swordsoul player had a bad opening hand game 3 and couldn't find his way to Longyuan.
@@dalinarthered I mean, of course you take the freebies. It's up to the game designers to analyse the current state of the (meta-)game, recognise such trends, and balance the game accordingly.
I honestly hate time rules. There have been many times where I have a chance to come back with around 5 minutes left on the clock but my opponent would always make some lame excuse or say they are “still thinking”. It gets super frustrating, especially since I have lower life points
Call a judge my man
@@Sunsaparilla judge gives a warning then goes
@@vedantgupta2145 these should be written warnings at some point.
it wont stay at a warning.
1. End the turn
2. if no player won at the end of that turn, the duel is a draw.
"You are always going to pick the wrong player sometimes when declaring someone the winner early" is a pretty stellar false premise. For some reason though, a lot of Yugioh players are allergic to the idea of draws or something. It wasn't even brought up as a possibility in the original video, with 4 different people all trying to address the topic.
@@Metallicity that's because draws don't forward you in a tournament
@Metallicity draws are just completely irrelevant to the conversations. They weren't talking about who wins and who loses they were talking about the time rules. Whatever the time rules are there will still be the same chance that at the end of time it's a draw.
@@bennygroysman4205 Did you even watch this video (or read the original comment this is replying to)? The point is that time rules currently try to pick a winner when time is called, leading to weird side deck cards and sometimes handing a player a win even when they might be in a clearly losing position. By having time rules hand out draws instead of wins and losses (as is suggested at the end of the video and also in the original comment), nobody has to worry about LP as a tie breaker.
Looking forward to Josh's take the set-rotation Magical Hats.
These videos are hillarious! Keep doing these!
Honestly, 45 minute rounds seem to be the perfect sweet spot for me. At ycs london I didn’t go into time once and a lot of my matches ending up being all three games. In comparison to locals, with 40 minute rounds, I find myself being much more conscious of the clock running down in game 3 even tho it’s only 5 minutes less
Yeah, as i cant really see yugioh having a chess like clock (like Master Duels has), so draws seem like the best option
I guess you would have to constantly remind your opponent to press the button whenever he wants to interact on your turn
@@ErinMT2 Either that or there would be a lot of (press button/other player pressss button) exchanges with no game action taken
I think end of battle phase is fine, I've lost games even while having a huge board but none of them had burn effects so i couldn't do anything
Having to explain cards is incredibly frustrating. At a regional earlier this year I was still having to explain to my opponents that they could not chain their Kashtira Fenrir to the effect of my Fenrir that was attacking and targeting his, as it is a trigger effect and not a quick effect. We were both 5-0 and it was a Kashtira mirror match.
it needs a specific clock, like chess clocks but with more options.
I do feel like end of chain link is better than end of phase. This way, you don't get to reactively fetch your burn thing, and if you don't burn fast enough you don't get that fat W. All in all I would like it better.
The way time is handled in Universus is rather interesting. The player going second gets the last turn, so if it is the first player's turn, the second player gets a turn, and if it's the second player's turn, that's the last turn. If no player loses at that time, then the game is declared a draw. I like that quite a bit!
I wonder if MBT only took such an provocative and strange take because he knew there was no imposter on the first episode and he still wanted a controversal discussion (and he didn't knew about Gages takes back then).
I'm inclined to think that he would have said something if that was the case, but at the same time his take was so ridiculous for someone who generally seems to think things through that I struggle to believe he was speaking with even a bit of truth. "I think it's really funny when random cards from 2010 that do burn see play" as a justification for winning matches for free is actually just straight up one of the worst takes I've ever heard about anything in a game.
Go until end of current turn, declare draw if no winner at this time is 100% the correct way to do time rules for this game. As far as I'm concerned, anything which makes testing the bounds of a subjectively judged rule (the slowplay rules, in this case) optimal is completely unacceptable in a competitive game. The current time rules do that, so in my mind *_must_* be fixed. "No winner at end of turn = draw" eliminates the majority of such concerns, and makes it so that the majority - I think almost all - of remaining time-influenced decisions fall more clearly within or outside of the rules.
P.S. (this is not directed at any specific person) Please don't get upset at people for playing to win. If taking advantage of time rules is optimal, and done without cheating, then that is perfectly fine to do. The fun of tournies lies in playing to win, and winning is judged within the rules of the game. If the rules are bad and playing optimally isn't healthy for the game as a result, so be it - that's on the game, not its players.
it's kinda funny that the time rule was never been a problem here in japan. even in Ishizu Tear format. we rarely had someone go on time. and mind you, we only have 40 minutes here per match. people here finish games so quickly we already skipping rounds so quickly. and we are still using the old last 3 turns sudden death rules
Isn't that because in Japan you mostly play best-of-1 matches? Example: czcams.com/video/pxUPh8od5lo/video.html
In the TCG only best-of-3 matches are played in tournaments, both in the preliminary rounds and in the top cut.
I went into time 5 times at YCS London. Felt so bad to get losses from it. IMO it's either got to be end of chain to stop these lame burn/gain cards or end of opponent's next turn. Which still means it will take too much time
As a newer player, the 40-45 minute time limit sucks. I feel like I don’t have time to think and practice my deck. I feel like I have to master a deck before I take it to even locals. You learn your deck better by playing it and if I take more than 5 seconds to think my opponent is like “slow play”. It’s really dumb and shitty. It punishes new players who only wants to play irl and not use DB or other simulators because people are assholes. Every player acts like a toxic pro and gets butt hurt if you take time to think about your plays.
I'll say the same thing I'm saying every time, we should have chess clocks with both people getting half the round time at the start of the game, your time runs down whenever you have priority, when a player runs out they immediately lose the current game and the match ends, if a match would end in a draw due to time the player with time on the clock remaining wins. During siding and judge calls, both players times run (in case of siding, only until they're done siding).
No faffing about with life points, matches can never go more than 45 minutes unless a judge awards an extension, slow play, intentional or otherwise, isn't rewarded etc. Only downside is the management aspect which could just be done via neuron or w/e.
Exactly!
It would also save time. I’ve never played competitive Yugioh IRL but I’m Diamond in master duel and my understanding is that everyone asks “response?” as they play their cards whenever priority passes. Instead. You would just normal summon your monster hit your timer to give your opponent an activation window then they could return the game state to your control immediatiely allowing you to continue playing.
It only makes sense.
Chess clocks. For the Win.
chess clocks don't work in in person yugioh because of how many times you pass priority. it works in online clients like master duel because the program keeps track for you
@@isidoreaerys8745 I’ve never played competitive Yugioh IRL. Okay buddy lets stop you right here. First play a game of irl yugioh first without something automatically telling you legal summons, activations and triggers before giving this suggestion.
Draw a card, flip clock
Opponent has no response, flips clock
End of draw phase, flip clock
Opponent has nothing, flip clock
End of standby phase, flip clock
Opponent flips clock
Main phase, normal summon stratos, flip clock in summon negation window
Opponent has nothing in summon negation window, flips clock
On summon, declare stratos, flip clock
Opponent has nothing, flip clock
Stratos resolves, add farris, on resolution turn player does nothing, flip clock
opponent flips clock
you will literally spend more time flipping the clock than actually playing the game lol, not to mention effects like balelynx or hugin which are continuous but optional, meaning you can use them while you don't have priority, and also having to flip the clock after each chain link resolving BUT only if said chain link has the person making a decision during it
@@penguinvader7057 yes like that, except without the whining. First of all, shortcuts are and remain legal. If your Oppenent immediately indicates they have no response no need to do anything, if they're thinking on a response hitting a button doesn't take any longer than it takes to say "thinking on Robina".
Magic the Gathering tournanents have 15 rounds of swiss and top cut of 8, you have 1 hour per round and 3 turns per player for end of time rules and they run events just fine.
The issue is that 3 turns in magic and 3 turns in YGO is not the same - 3 turns for each player in YGO is 2 entire games a lot of the time.
For comp REL rules they also have no time limit top 8's so that the biggest tournament of the year isnt settled by a timeout
Petition to change the timer to 3 hours
Really good idea to simply go end of battle phase of current turn and just declare it a draw, if noone has won by then. It's not perfect either, but probably better and more fair in most situations.
There are just more people and more games going on at a YCS, so there is a higher chance that some of those games will have to be given extra time, especially if you have to wait for a judge. Also, more people is just more complicated to deal with so it also takes longer to start rounds etc. I don't think it's actually just that people are tryharding more at a YCS compared to a regional.
The time rule as they are now encourage slow play, and when there are 20 tables and one jugde its unreasonable he will be able to go to each table
I still think Yugioh should get rid of time rules and just add something similar to a chess clock.
what about just counting card advantage instead? would also not be 100% accurate but i think its more accurate than LP.
I’ve always preferred 0,1,2,3 idk I could be delusional
End of current chain actually makes ladybug and similar cards much worse
But dosn't that lead to a lot of draws?
Just take the chess system. Each player has a fixed amount of time per game. Either you beat your opponent and win, or you use all your time and lose. That prevents ever going over time, and prevents stalling or burn being an issue.
Might be a bit clunky to figure out timing for in turn interactions, but it'd encourage fast play, and game knowledge.
I don't get why the duel has to have a winner if it goes to time? Deciding on life total feels so arbitrary - just declare that particular duel a draw and then if it was 1-1 before the match is a draw, if it was 1-0 the player up a game wins. Makes more sense to me anyways.
And If it's a bracket who advances in a draw?
@@Pedro-ho2xj Yeah this only applies to swiss rounds. In bracket you can't use it like this - in mtg brackets have unlimited time for bracket, but mtg also only cuts to top 8. So not sure what the best way to solve this in YGO would be.
@@Pedro-ho2xj Are there so few bracket duels happening simultaneously that each match can be acocmpanied by a judge?
If yes, you could make it a judge call who actually was ahead in the game and gets to advance (perhaps knowledge of both players' hands and the cards they would have drawn next).
In the case that no one has managed to get into a clearly winning position, neither player advances as neither made it in time.
Just implement the master duel time rules. You get 5 minutes to play a turn at max and only get one extra minute every time it changes to someone else's turn lol.
Chess timer
@@Pedro-ho2xj chess timer is hard to implement in paper play because sometimes it’s unclear who is using time. If I spend time thinking if I want to react to an opponent’s play but end up doing nothing so the opponent plays continuously with a gap, who uses their time? If the opponent waits for me to think when I don’t need them to, who’s time is that? If an opponent asks if I have a response to every play, who’s time is that?
Wheres dkayed
@JoshuaSchmidtPlus exactly the time rules wouldn’t be that bad if they didn’t use a trivial state like live points. They need to find a better way for that maybe Card advantage in hand and field or something.
Not viable, some decks simply dont have many cards in hand or GY in a winning position.
For example, in unchained you usually only have 2-3 cards on board when you are in a winning position
Furthermore, if a deck were to have most of its interaction be on spell speed 2, banish for cost from GY effects, that metric falls apart completely when applied to it. On the other end of the spectrum, there are decks like Crystal Beasts which incidentally leave a lot of cards on field that individually do little, and search spells that have some minor continuous bonus effect become better than ROTA w.r.t. time rules. I'll grant that card advantage is a better metric than LP, but I don't think it's better by much and think [time --> draw] would be a better system than either.
@@flamvellyt1910 but LP is? Dinomorphia can be vastly ahead in the game with 1k vs 8k LP. The crux of the problem is that LP is simply not a good method of determining who is ahead.
@@nigamnation never said that the current timerules are good. I also dislike the fact that decks like Punk just simply fall apart in a scenario where shit goes into time
YCS have "longer" in-between rounds mostly because they are having problems wwith their paper-less organization. It's tilting to have stress during round becasue of time rules and this stress is useless because we still wait more than 40min after rounds have ended.
Here is another thing that may help. Let the player that goes 2nd start with their 6th card already in hand. This way people can scoop instead of waiting for the opp to make their combo just to see if they will topdeck their only out.
Fast game -> a lot happens in one turn -> small granularity for time rules to apply -> ideas about end of phase or end of chain
If the game was slower, old time rules would work well.
If the game does not get slower (it probably won't) then I agree with your suggestion: end of turn then draw.
Tbf, MBT and Gage were on the same side of the argument, so I don't think them going after each other as the imposter makes that much sense
The correct take is: you have up to 5 minutes to end the turn. After the turn ends the game ends.
The bullshit excuse for no end of turn limit is mega combo decks taking forever to end a turn
And I say if you don't want to put half of the cards of those boring ass decks on the banlist like they deserve anyway.
The just cap the time to five minutes, and if they don't end the turn by that point the game ends at the end of the current chain.
Spoiler alert
Joshs take is that the die roll is more determinative than time rules
I'm ok with Time Rules for tournament length sake. I highly believe you should be able to appeal "Gamestate" in a game you only lose because of time.
Would happen in almost every game where burning in time takes place tho, it’s almost never a decisive position
would it really be that hard to just give players chess clocks? at least for the big ycs events? like man nobody in chess would ever have the idea that alright after 10 minutes the game is ended and whoever has more material on board wins and material on board even is a more meaningfull assesment of who is winning than LP in yugioh.
It is so obviously stupid that It is the one thing that keeps me from playing paper yugioh
"Priority is passed too often for chess clocks to be a good idea," according to Yugioh players who've never seen low time control chess games. Though there's some merit to the idea that empty passing (passing priority back without doing a game action) would get tiring. Otherwise, they're a somewhat expensive investment, and could cause difficulties for TOs I guess. As you can probably tell, I'm not convinced they're a bad idea.
@@delta3244 hmm yeah But I guess you could get around that with some reasonable shortcutting basically like the chain auto on and off on master duel and other online simulators where one player could maybe indicate a response and then flip the clock for himself?
maybe you could inverse the whole concept where you'd flip your opponents time off before a turn instead of your own time off after a turn?
the investment thing is def worth noting but i found some 10euro chess clocks which I guess you could probably get even a bit cheaper in bulk?
Also you could use Chess clock apps in the beginning and at smaller tournaments
Actually I think I am gonna test this with my friend who has actual cards
@@freaki0734 I'd love to hear about the results of that test. There's merit to the idea of 'codifying' shortcuts like that, but conceptually, I prefer passing priority explicitly for the fact that it reduces arguments (things like "I tapped the button in response to your last action, you just played too fast!
"I have a timer, I can't aford to wait around for your responses"). Idk how either would work in practice, though, so again, please tell me how those tests go if you do them. I'm curious!
Time rules suck butt
Edit: change my mind
I wish they would mix up the participants. having the same 4 people every single time is getting stale.
they should get josh or jesse or even sam, pak or skarlon...
None of this would be a problem if master duel was like 100% of other TCGs and used an UP TO DATE CARDPOOL.
Understanding a runic deck takes all of 10 minutes. 5 minutes to understand that each card cheats a fusion monster or acts as an interruption. Then 5 minutes to understand how The Wolf recycles fountain for an infinite card loop until you run out of card names.
The problem is people are labbing these cards out in their YCS making up rulings as they go.
Once again this falls upon the laziness and greed of Konami. They want to be able to release Perlerino as a Secret rare “3 of” in a separate region where the common field spell is not legal. Then profit AGAIN off the same card by 15 months later uploading a GIF of the boss monster onto master duel then making Commons like Tearlaments Scream Expensive Ultra Rares. So the poors can finally learn the deck, long after those cards are banned and irrelevant.
Also the master duel timer adapted to the current maximum time would be perfect. Use chess clocks. Your time burns whenever you have priority. If you run out of time, you lose.
@@isidoreaerys8745 Its a pain in the ass to implement a chess style clock in yugioh. In automatic simulators, its no issue, but in YGO priority is passed so regularly and at random times that it would be not feasible
You can learn decks on unofficial simulators prior to tournaments. It's easier to do so on them than it would be on MD, in fact. If MD were up to date, people who already prepare for tournies would continue to do so, and people who don't would continue not to, with minimal exceptions.
@@flamvellyt1910 Is that true? Chess players aren't bothered by passing time back and forth every few seconds when on lower time controls, from what I've seen. The only thing that would be annoying is loops, where players may try to shark one another by forcing all iterations of a loop to be played out for a time advantage, but this can be covered by tournament policy. Playing with a chess timer would prevent players from taking many shortcuts, which is certainly annoying and undesirable, but I think there's an argument in favor of them regardless (if exclusively gameplay is considered. Factoring in TO time and expenses, and any other complicating factors, may prove chess clocks unreasonable).
@@flamvellyt1910Just for the sake of it, here are a couple of example chess games with low time controls. Notice how quickly the players have to toggle the clock during some stretches of gameplay, and notice that they aren't overly bothered by it. Bear in mind that passing priority would not need to be vocalized in the presence of a chess clock, as pressing the button would immediately and definitively communicate it.
czcams.com/video/dXRiDJ0R_SA/video.html
czcams.com/video/cckiAppwf-s/video.html
In case it's not obvious, I am mostly unconvinced by the argument that chess clocks would be a bad idea even if they could be implemented because of how often priority is passed. I hope those games illustrate why.
The time rules are terrible and have only caused players to exploit them. Only reason they excist is because konami pays judges hourly pay. So they save money shortening tournament length by creating a rule to the game itself. This literally started when judges began getting hourly pay. Back then they would get boxes and konami merch as payment.
why not pause the time when they need to read a card? that way people will not try to win by wasting time.
The point of time rules is to make sure tournaments are always moving at some reasonable-ish pace. After a match is played by two players, they must wait until all other matches finish before they can plah again, and time rules guarentee that this will happen eventually. If time is paused for one match in a round, _the entire tournament_ is delayed by that long. As such, pausing time frequently for reasonable lengths each time defeats the purpose of time rules.
As much as I prefer the master duel system of both players having separate timers and the loser being the player who runs out, if they have to decide a winner by part of the game state, it should be number of cards on field. It's still not perfect, but it's more indicative of who's actually winning
That's even worse than determining the winner by LP.
I still have no idea how they determine who is going to be imposter without everyone knowing who is imposter. Like, can 2 people be imposter? What if everyone just rolls up with a dogshit take. I really wish they'd explain it.
Either way, fun series. I refuse to watch it directly but Joshua's reactions are great and it's nice having an actual pro player weigh in on some of this stuff.
cmon man you are the assumingfrog and have such a problem with this concept? they are allowed to talk to people outside of this show and are no robots that get turned on/off, it is not so hard to come to the conclusion that a fifth person, mbts editor or someone else, decides or randomly chooses who is the imposter before every episode and informs this person before they start. it is not a such a mysterious thing as you make it out to be
@Pfeilinger I mean, I assumed that was the case, but as a natural born assumer I've come to learn to assuming makes an ass out of u and me.
Every time I see MBT express an opinion it's always the worst possible take my god
Current time rules are so garbage and facilitate bad sportsmanship and bad play overall. It's why adventure prank kids dpe is my most hated deck ever apart from tear. Any deck that can combo and manipulate life points is a problem under the current time rules. If you lose the dice roll against a deck like that, you are probably going to lose the match and there isn't much you can do about it. They take turn 1, they combo, if you didn't "draw the out" their full board is hard to beat and you probably lose. Game 2 they side knowing they are going 2nd. You play your turn, they play out their combo lines and they can run down the clock, doing interactions even if they know they are going to lose that game. They keep playing and run the clock down until there is something like 6 minutes left. They scoop and go to game 3. Now all they have to do is do their normal combo lines, hold main phase and advance the game state until time gets called and then change life points and they win. And there wasn't much agency you had over that game.