Navien Recirculation Home Automation Zwave install
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- čas přidán 6. 11. 2020
- Truly instant hot water controlled by your smart devices!
I used a Zooz S2 Zen16 multi relay to provide smart home control of my Navien NPE-A series water heater and recirculation pump. By installing this I can turn on the water heater recirculation using any Alexa or Google device or by using proximity sensors, any smart home switch, or time based.
Say "Alexa turn on the hot water" and then step into the shower with instant hot water and no waste. No more running the tap waiting for hot water - love it!
Products used:
Zooz Zen 16 Zwave plus smart relay: amzn.to/2JNpm4Z
Navien Hot button kit: gadgetsgo.com/Navien-HotButto...
Hubitat smart hub: amzn.to/36aFghg
(note: any Zwave compatible smart hub is ok. However if you don't have one, I love my Hubitat as it has local based control, no cloud requirement and is easy to setup)
I wired mine with a 12V adapter. The easiest way is to power it directly from the Hot button kit which I show in the graphic picture but I had already wired mine into the 12V adapter when I discovered this. - Jak na to + styl
Thank You. Have a newer (2022) Navien Combi Boiler NCB-240/130. I instaled Zooz Multi Relay. With the newer boiler you do not need to purchase the Hot Button relay board. The connections are already on the control board inside boiler. Just connect 2 output wires from relay and set HW Recirc to Hot Button. I am using SmartThings and Alexa to control pump. Need to adjust HW line distance to fine tune how long pump runs for your location. Thank You works Great!!
Great video. Thank you so much
great walk through, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
I had the same problem with the recirculation running too short. You don't have to remove the short on the sensor. You do need to increase the parameter that specifies distance from 50 to something much bigger. The default of 30 runs my recirculation for about 10s. Ridiculous, really. I changed to 300 and now it runs for about 4 minutes.
the wiring you show for powering the zooz from the hot button board did not work for me. instead I wired the relay to the signal 2 terminals, and the power as you showed.
On your Hubitat, did you setup the ZEN16 as a Garage Door on the relay or did you choose another option (like Momentary)? I have the Zen17 relay which is pretty similar to the Zen16. So just curious what you set that input up as. Thanks!
I received this reply from Zooz in regards to how to set it up. Hope this answers your question. The Zooz works really well.:
Since you're looking for momentary button function, you wouldn't set the switch mode to momentary (that relates to lighting applications only), instead, you would need to set it to Garage Door Mode switch type for Sw1/R1. This will automatically turn the relay off after a couple of seconds once it's activating, acting like a momentary push button.
You need at least 1.02 firmware to access the Garage Door Mode and it looks like you may still need be on 1.01 so I'm including the firmware file and instructions on how to upgrade the unit as well.
Hi, I have a NPE 210 A. Do you need to have a dedicated recirculating pipe for this to work? Thanks
If you don’t have a dedicated recirculation line, you can use the cold water line as a return if you put a recirculation valve at your furthest fixture. Naiven makes a “navicirc” product for this. I believe this would work the same way as the product says it’s compatible with the hot button. Here is a link the navicirc: gadgetsgo.com/Navien-NaviCirc-30022965A-retrofit-recirc-valve.html
@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 Thank you Ystebad.
do you have a homekit enabled relay switch to recommend?
I control this one with my Hubitat, which can be integrated into HomeKit. (www.reddit.com/r/Hubitat/comments/uqkpqt/hubitat_connection_to_apple_homekit/). I use HomeKit but not as primary control. If you're using HomeKit as your primary control of everything you'd have to have a Wave controller that would then control the relay that I used. I'm not aware of any HomeKit specific relays, but there may be some out there, especially as thread comes online.
I am thinking of having a Navien NPE series tankless installed and came across your video. My current setup is a regular water heater that has an dedicated return line and pump. I use a z wave outlet that the pump is plugged into, and the outlet is controlled by Homeseer and we use Alexa voice commands..
I can't make up my mind on whether to buy the A2 which has the built in recirc pump or the S2 where I would use my existing recirc pump with the z wave outlet setup.
The A2 also has a built in 'buffer tank', but I am not sure if that is needed or not. If you had to do it over again, almost 2 years later, would you still go with the built in recirc pump or do you think the A2 with an external pump would be better? Lastly, if I did go with the A2, is there any other feature that I am missing out on versus the S2? Thanks, I really liked your video
As you note the biggest reason to buy the A is that you don’t have to pay to install a separate recirc pump. However I will say that in my last house I owned a unit without the buffer tank and “cold water sandwich” is definitely a real thing. The buffer tank eliminates that and also allows for small volumes of hot water to be used without firing up the burner (depending on how far away the faucet is from the unit). I think it’s “just” a couple hundred bucks - for me I’d spend the extra money to avoid the cold water sandwich problem even though you’ve already got the pump. I’ve been very happy with our setup 2 years later and it works great via alexa. I’m probably going to get some small zwave buttons for guest bathroom eventually but haven’t gotten around to it. Cheers to you and best of luck with your project. I would never go back to a traditional tank water heater.
@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 Appreciate the response. Ya, our recirc pump is 18 years old also, so it sounds like I should go with the Advanced version. My local Natural Gas company just emailed a deal they just started. About $1,500 installed, including permits, haul away of the old tank, etc - so I jumped on it. I just need to decide which unit over the weekend. They gave me a choice between a Rheem and the Avian NPE-A2, and at this point the Avian appears to be the better of the two.
Our existing setup uses a z-wave controlled outlet that the recirc pump plugs into, and has worked great for years using HomeSeer. (Homeseer detects when the pump is powered on and will automatically power off after 5 minutes). We have about 10 Amazon Echo's throughout the house and voice control with the outlet works great. I think your Zooz Zen16 solution is brilliant (I like Zooz and have several of their devices already), so I think I will just copy what you did. Thanks again
Regarding the jumper that was shorting the hot button sensor, I don't think you should have to remove that. Do you think it's possible your Navien was turning off prior the time limit you set because it detected the water returning through your recirc line was already warm? It is my understanding after scouring the internet that that is how it works. The timer setting is more of a "max" it will run, unless it gets to temperature sooner than that.
When I installed it the return line was cold. It ran a specific amount of time each time and then shut off (just a few seconds). I felt the return line and there was definitely not hot water in it. I would have preferred it to shut off automatically when hot water returned, but with stock settings it just didn’t work. Doing it as I ended up has worked perfectly since installation.
@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 thanks for the reply. Did you happen to try the actual hot button to compare behavior? Thanks for the video. I'm trying this myself - got everything ordered. I'm curious about the recirc behavior you experienced.
@@JaredHaren No I never wired the hot button but the relay serves the same purpose - it works as a momentary closure of the circuit just like the button would do but able to be controlled remotely. I wouldn’t expect a difference. Will be interested to see if you have the same issue - please report back!
@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 OK I just set mine up. I set the Zooz firmware (1.03) to "Garage Door Mode" which means it is a switch that you set the timeout for. Configuring the other parameters I made it close the switch for 1 second, and then turn off again. This simulates what the "Hot button" press would do.
When I turn mine on, it seems to run and shut off prior to the time I set on P12 of the water heater also. I did nothing with the temperature sensor, not even removing the bridge. When I first tried it I think it ran for a decent while. Subsequent attempts it shut off immediately, but I think it's because it detects the water in the line is 100 degrees F. Per the Navien hot button instruction pamphlet, it will run as long as the pump time is set, or the 100 degree water in the return line, whichever happens first. Given that, I am not sure if the temperature sensor overrides that 100 degrees or not?
Thanks for the tip about powering the Zooz from the hot button. I went ahead and did that. When I first closed up the Navien, the Zooz didn't work anymore. I had it positioned near the Navien PCB. I was about to move it outside when I decided to put it on the other side of the Navien to the left of the control panel. That works even with the Navien cover on.
All in all, I think I'm good to go. I'm going to let the water in the lines cool and try again. I have a small house, the plumber who did my repipe thought it was overkill to have a return line but the cold start times on the Navien led me to have 30+ seconds to hot water. With this, it's now 7 seconds - essentially emptying the water in my wall until it's meeting the source of the hot.
One more thing I wanted to note, I cannot adjust P16 on the Navien. When I navigate to that setting, it shows two dashes (--) which I think is because the hot button PCB is connected. I believe the way the hot button works is that it will run on the timer set, or until return water reaches 100 F, that's it. So I think P16 is only for when the hot button is NOT connected. In your video, did you set those settings before connecting the PCB?
Anyways, thanks for the great idea. This is my first dabble in home automation and everything worked great with my Hubitat. For future readers, I have a Navien 240 A.
I have the npe150s and it takes 3 minutes to heat up my faucet water. Would this work with my set up? I am also running homekit and have aqara hubs
I’m not 100% sure but I don’t believe the S models have a recirculating pump so you would have to install a separate pump. Definitely doable but different. You could use the same idea to relay the power to the recirculating pump. If you don’t have a built in recirculating line for return you would also need to install a kit at the most distant faucet to allow for cold water return. Best of luck with your project - that prolonged wait is what drove me to do this project.
Or just buy A model with a recirculation pump build in. Good video.
Not sure what you mean - this model does have the recirculation pump built in. However by default the navien built in pump is always on which wastes a lot of energy and bills higher. It has a "smart" option which tries to learn when you will need hot water and only turn on then but unless you do things the same time everyday I didn't find it worked well. What I show is how to make it truly on demand and also by schedule that you decide for yourself. Thanks for the interest!
@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 The Navien A modell has build in buffer tank and recylculation pump, as settings for three ways to recylculate ,alwais on , time, and smart . Your video is how to make recylculation in S model .Thats how is done to upgrade your Standard version . Good video. Thanks for reply.
@@786otto No - my is model NPE-240A which has the built in pump and buffer tank. I found all the built in modes that you mention had limits - doing this way is much better.
@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 There must be a reason to do so ,agreed.
@@786otto Hot button doesn't work on S models.
Is the the circulation pump turned on only via a button like this, or can be turned on just during normal operation?
The Navien water heater from the factory has an "always on" recirculation setting (which drove up our gas bill quite a bit) or a "smart" system which "learns" when you use hot water and turns on when it thinks it should. I found the smart system just didn't work for us as our schedule is not always the same. So when you use the Smart Button kit it turns both of those off and then recirculation is only turned on when the "button" is pushed. In my case the "button" is pushed by my smart home system via the relay I show installed. So I can turn the pump on whenever I want based on voice, time, anything. Of course the water is heated whenever demand occurs so if you forget to turn on the recirculation and just turn on the hot water somewhere the water heater will work, but it just takes time for the hot water to get to that faucet like normal. Hope that answers your question.
I have a navien nfc that i put an external recirc pump on to get hot water quicker, the settings give option of always on, timed or aquastat. I have aqua stat wired in along with the pump. The navien does not send 120 v to pump connection with this setting. Any ideas?
@@dwaynerenton1889 If you have an external recirculating pump then whenever you activate it the Navien will just turn on because it senses “demand” due to the pump moving water. Mine has the recirculating pump built into the unit itself. If you have an external pump it will have its own control. You probably could use a relay such as the one I used to control it if the system you have doesn’t have smart function - I used the low voltage side but it also can control up to 220V circuits if the pump you are using requires a 120v control. I think most such pumps probably have low voltage control however.
@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 ,yes the Navien has terminals to power the pump and low voltage terminals for the aquastat which i have both the pump and aquastat tied into their designated spots. And the onboard settings for the navien have default setting for recirc is called combi pre heat and uses the always on setting , and boiler pump. Bathroom is 60 plus feet away and does not get hot water for about 3 minutes, temp set point of 120 degrees. I installed external recirc pump and tied it in to boiler connection points and changed dhw recirc to external recirc in boiler settings, which give choices of always on/ timed/ or aquastat. Im using aquastat so that was my choice. With a 20 degree differential set point of 100 degrees. So i thought with that setting when water temp drops to my aquastat setting the boiler should activate external pump and bring water temp back up to setting of 120degrees.
@@dwaynerenton1889 Sounds like the correct setup. Would check continuity of the aqua stat relay and voltages at your heater. Sorry I'm not really familiar with that setup - I'm just a homeowner who figured out a way to make mine smart, not a professional! Best of luck.
I started called some plumbers and so far none are knowledgable on any of this, not even the recirculation valve itself
That doesn't surprise me - most do not. If you can find someone who is very invested in tankless you might have success. But if you already have the heater at home -really this is a diy project that most could do.