Video

Mine definitely do not just screw off, but if that's an option with how yours is attached sounds like a great idea.

Make sure you follow the instructions on direction of drill - the first bit is designed to make a small hole only and then the second is to “bite” into that hole. They go different directions. You can probably re-try with the next bigger size if you didn’t drill too far in.

Those dirty dogs. Sometimes you can wrench it enough before it catches on a thread to get to it with the drill. Otherwise it's the Dremel technique probably - WEAR EYE PROTECTION! You can saw through the actual brass but be VERY careful with eye safety due to risk of metal fragments and go slow so you don’t damage the underlying threads. Basically you cut two slots separated by maybe 1/4-1/2" and then pry the slot inbetween back. But cutting through and then using channel locks to pry a bit of space will get it off. I did that version in the past before I tried this extractor

Very strange - have had a couple people say similar things. I’ve used mine multiple times over the years on multiple screws including the project above done on several back flow devices and never had a problem. It’s hardened steel, and the speeds used are very slow so no clue how it would “wear down”. I have also used the dremel approach and it does work as I note in the video but you have more chance of metal shavings in the eye so please use eye protection (not just glasses) and be very careful! Glad you got yours fixed!

Make sure it’s turning the right way and that you use the right end - one is the extractor and will not drill but they look similar . One other person posted the same problem- it’s always worked for me

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295the drill side is the one with more aggressive edges right . I used the drill in hammer mode in counterclockwise direction(arrow facing backward button). Let me know if I am doing something wrong

@@kushagrasingh7731 you definitely do not want hammer mode and re-read the instructions and pictures if you bought the kit I used. User error - it happens.

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 ok thanks

Of course I can’t reply to “need” that would depend on your local code. However do educate yourself as to why they are installed. If you ever attach any chemical sprayer at all to the end of the hose and don’t have one you definitely can back flow that into the water supply. In my case this particular faucet is only used to wash cars with a pressure washer so I did not replace it. When I sell the house I will replace it to meet code.

Interesting. I’ve used it on multiple items with great results. Are you sure you used the right one as the drill - remember there is an extractor bit and a drill bit. And also remember you have to follow instructions on direction of rotation.

It’s mean to gush out but generally only when you shut the water off. If it’s coming all all the time you definitely have a defective valve so you could replace it or if you want you can do what I did in this video, with the understanding that you are defeating a safety feature and that it might not meet local code.

I control this one with my Hubitat, which can be integrated into HomeKit. (www.reddit.com/r/Hubitat/comments/uqkpqt/hubitat_connection_to_apple_homekit/). I use HomeKit but not as primary control. If you're using HomeKit as your primary control of everything you'd have to have a Wave controller that would then control the relay that I used. I'm not aware of any HomeKit specific relays, but there may be some out there, especially as thread comes online.

The screw is broken off because the all wise government doesn’t wish the average person to be able to remove. Common good vs individual freedoms colliding. I can see both sides - if you remove and don’t understand why it’s there it’s true harm can be done no only to yourself but to the neighbors. So it’s the cost of attaching your home to the public water system I guess.

I’m not 100% sure but I don’t believe the S models have a recirculating pump so you would have to install a separate pump. Definitely doable but different. You could use the same idea to relay the power to the recirculating pump. If you don’t have a built in recirculating line for return you would also need to install a kit at the most distant faucet to allow for cold water return. Best of luck with your project - that prolonged wait is what drove me to do this project.

As you note the biggest reason to buy the A is that you don’t have to pay to install a separate recirc pump. However I will say that in my last house I owned a unit without the buffer tank and “cold water sandwich” is definitely a real thing. The buffer tank eliminates that and also allows for small volumes of hot water to be used without firing up the burner (depending on how far away the faucet is from the unit). I think it’s “just” a couple hundred bucks - for me I’d spend the extra money to avoid the cold water sandwich problem even though you’ve already got the pump. I’ve been very happy with our setup 2 years later and it works great via alexa. I’m probably going to get some small zwave buttons for guest bathroom eventually but haven’t gotten around to it. Cheers to you and best of luck with your project. I would never go back to a traditional tank water heater.

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 Appreciate the response. Ya, our recirc pump is 18 years old also, so it sounds like I should go with the Advanced version. My local Natural Gas company just emailed a deal they just started. About $1,500 installed, including permits, haul away of the old tank, etc - so I jumped on it. I just need to decide which unit over the weekend. They gave me a choice between a Rheem and the Avian NPE-A2, and at this point the Avian appears to be the better of the two. Our existing setup uses a z-wave controlled outlet that the recirc pump plugs into, and has worked great for years using HomeSeer. (Homeseer detects when the pump is powered on and will automatically power off after 5 minutes). We have about 10 Amazon Echo's throughout the house and voice control with the outlet works great. I think your Zooz Zen16 solution is brilliant (I like Zooz and have several of their devices already), so I think I will just copy what you did. Thanks again

In that case something like a fein or even a dremel to saw through the actual brass but be VERY careful with eye safety due to risk of metal fragments and go slow so you don’t damage the underlying threads. But cutting through and then using channel locks to pry a bit of space will get it off. I did that version in the past before I tried this extractor

To use the extractor kit the drill is ALWAYS in reverse mode. The end that looks sharp and pointy with a straight sharp line is the drill out side and is used first. The end that looks like a screw with threads and a somewhat flat top is what you use to actually back out the screw. You can see both at 0:26 the drill is on the bottom (use first) and the extractor is on top (use second and SLOW) Remember both times the drill is going in reverse. And when you remove the screw you do it SLOWLY - #1 reason for failure is stripping the screw out by going too fast. If your drill has driver and drill mode make sure you use driver (SLOW) mode for the extraction bit. Cheers and good luck!

I'm really confused how you could have harmed a drill doing this procedure. If you watch what I'm doing, everything is pretty slow and minimal. The first "hole" drilled is pretty shallow and the actual reversing bit I specifically tell you slow and easy. The only thing I can think is you didn't have the square part of the shaft of the bit gripped in your drill chuck properly. While I suppose that might cause some damage, proper operation of tools is always important. And this back flow preventer here is solid brass, I did 4 of them - one which I couldn't reach with a drill and had to use the reciprocating saw technique which sucked. Anyway sorry you had a bad day trying to fix something at home, I know that can be frustrating. If it's still there double check you used the correct side of the drill bits (using them backwards will certainly not work) and unless you drilled really deep you could potentially try again with the reversing bit.

If the screw is on the back or not reachable then probably the best bet is to get a hacksaw or fein type saw and cut the brass outer ring itself and then pry it back. I've done that too and you have to be careful not to cut too deep and also be very careful because metal shavings in the eye can cause permanent eye damage (safety glasses a must and proceed at your own risk). I've not seen them installed behind because it takes a screwdriver to drive the screw in before it's broken off on install, so generally they are on the right side because most people are right handed.

There’s nothing difficult about replacing this. I drilled mine out.

Fully agree, a real stupid code.

Got this in my new house new construction. Broke/Faulty the first year!

I received this reply from Zooz in regards to how to set it up. Hope this answers your question. The Zooz works really well.: Since you're looking for momentary button function, you wouldn't set the switch mode to momentary (that relates to lighting applications only), instead, you would need to set it to Garage Door Mode switch type for Sw1/R1. This will automatically turn the relay off after a couple of seconds once it's activating, acting like a momentary push button. You need at least 1.02 firmware to access the Garage Door Mode and it looks like you may still need be on 1.01 so I'm including the firmware file and instructions on how to upgrade the unit as well.

I think your comments are over the top and "deceptive" is clearly not appropriate. I have used screw extractors to drill into bolts and screws many times and it's exactly what they are made for. If you break off a bolt in an engine block and its flush on top guess what you use - one of these. I suspect you didn't proceed with SLOW drill speed as I suggest and with enough stability on the drill. Like any other attempt to drill metal it's the start that is the key. Using a very small bit to make an initial hole then a larger extractor bit to back out may be a good technique for those that can't steady the drill in the center. If it starts "walking" it isn't going to work. There are many ways to accomplish the same goal and Dremel and pliers are an option which I also note in my video. But you run more chance of damaging faucet or getting metal shavings in your eyes (wear SAFETY goggles, not just glasses if using a Dremel on brass please!). This method works but you do you.

This video is not deceptive; it saved my sanity! You cray

Hmmm. Glad you got it out. Drilling all the way down to get the entire set screw down would be more likely to damage the faucet but glad you made it work. When I’ve broken extractor set bits in the past it’s usually been that I was going too fast. Cheers and thanks for the reply.

I used drill bit, I don't know the size. I put WD-40 and was so easy to extract the broken screw and the backfkow. Thank you for your suggestion.

That doesn't surprise me - most do not. If you can find someone who is very invested in tankless you might have success. But if you already have the heater at home -really this is a diy project that most could do.

Not sure what you mean - this model does have the recirculation pump built in. However by default the navien built in pump is always on which wastes a lot of energy and bills higher. It has a "smart" option which tries to learn when you will need hot water and only turn on then but unless you do things the same time everyday I didn't find it worked well. What I show is how to make it truly on demand and also by schedule that you decide for yourself. Thanks for the interest!

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 The Navien A modell has build in buffer tank and recylculation pump, as settings for three ways to recylculate ,alwais on , time, and smart . Your video is how to make recylculation in S model .Thats how is done to upgrade your Standard version . Good video. Thanks for reply.

@@786otto No - my is model NPE-240A which has the built in pump and buffer tank. I found all the built in modes that you mention had limits - doing this way is much better.

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 There must be a reason to do so ,agreed.

@@786otto Hot button doesn't work on S models.

I used the smallest one in this set (speed out#1) - it states for #4-#7 screw sizes. Perfect size for the job

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 after I saw your video I ordered from amazon a set of extractors. All DIYers should have that in their tool box. Thanks again.

Glad it was helpful!

If you don’t have a dedicated recirculation line, you can use the cold water line as a return if you put a recirculation valve at your furthest fixture. Naiven makes a “navicirc” product for this. I believe this would work the same way as the product says it’s compatible with the hot button. Here is a link the navicirc: gadgetsgo.com/Navien-NaviCirc-30022965A-retrofit-recirc-valve.html

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 Thank you Ystebad.

When I installed it the return line was cold. It ran a specific amount of time each time and then shut off (just a few seconds). I felt the return line and there was definitely not hot water in it. I would have preferred it to shut off automatically when hot water returned, but with stock settings it just didn’t work. Doing it as I ended up has worked perfectly since installation.

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 thanks for the reply. Did you happen to try the actual hot button to compare behavior? Thanks for the video. I'm trying this myself - got everything ordered. I'm curious about the recirc behavior you experienced.

@@JaredHaren No I never wired the hot button but the relay serves the same purpose - it works as a momentary closure of the circuit just like the button would do but able to be controlled remotely. I wouldn’t expect a difference. Will be interested to see if you have the same issue - please report back!

​@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 OK I just set mine up. I set the Zooz firmware (1.03) to "Garage Door Mode" which means it is a switch that you set the timeout for. Configuring the other parameters I made it close the switch for 1 second, and then turn off again. This simulates what the "Hot button" press would do. When I turn mine on, it seems to run and shut off prior to the time I set on P12 of the water heater also. I did nothing with the temperature sensor, not even removing the bridge. When I first tried it I think it ran for a decent while. Subsequent attempts it shut off immediately, but I think it's because it detects the water in the line is 100 degrees F. Per the Navien hot button instruction pamphlet, it will run as long as the pump time is set, or the 100 degree water in the return line, whichever happens first. Given that, I am not sure if the temperature sensor overrides that 100 degrees or not? Thanks for the tip about powering the Zooz from the hot button. I went ahead and did that. When I first closed up the Navien, the Zooz didn't work anymore. I had it positioned near the Navien PCB. I was about to move it outside when I decided to put it on the other side of the Navien to the left of the control panel. That works even with the Navien cover on. All in all, I think I'm good to go. I'm going to let the water in the lines cool and try again. I have a small house, the plumber who did my repipe thought it was overkill to have a return line but the cold start times on the Navien led me to have 30+ seconds to hot water. With this, it's now 7 seconds - essentially emptying the water in my wall until it's meeting the source of the hot. One more thing I wanted to note, I cannot adjust P16 on the Navien. When I navigate to that setting, it shows two dashes (--) which I think is because the hot button PCB is connected. I believe the way the hot button works is that it will run on the timer set, or until return water reaches 100 F, that's it. So I think P16 is only for when the hot button is NOT connected. In your video, did you set those settings before connecting the PCB? Anyways, thanks for the great idea. This is my first dabble in home automation and everything worked great with my Hubitat. For future readers, I have a Navien 240 A.

The Navien water heater from the factory has an "always on" recirculation setting (which drove up our gas bill quite a bit) or a "smart" system which "learns" when you use hot water and turns on when it thinks it should. I found the smart system just didn't work for us as our schedule is not always the same. So when you use the Smart Button kit it turns both of those off and then recirculation is only turned on when the "button" is pushed. In my case the "button" is pushed by my smart home system via the relay I show installed. So I can turn the pump on whenever I want based on voice, time, anything. Of course the water is heated whenever demand occurs so if you forget to turn on the recirculation and just turn on the hot water somewhere the water heater will work, but it just takes time for the hot water to get to that faucet like normal. Hope that answers your question.

I have a navien nfc that i put an external recirc pump on to get hot water quicker, the settings give option of always on, timed or aquastat. I have aqua stat wired in along with the pump. The navien does not send 120 v to pump connection with this setting. Any ideas?

@@dwaynerenton1889 If you have an external recirculating pump then whenever you activate it the Navien will just turn on because it senses “demand” due to the pump moving water. Mine has the recirculating pump built into the unit itself. If you have an external pump it will have its own control. You probably could use a relay such as the one I used to control it if the system you have doesn’t have smart function - I used the low voltage side but it also can control up to 220V circuits if the pump you are using requires a 120v control. I think most such pumps probably have low voltage control however.

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 ,yes the Navien has terminals to power the pump and low voltage terminals for the aquastat which i have both the pump and aquastat tied into their designated spots. And the onboard settings for the navien have default setting for recirc is called combi pre heat and uses the always on setting , and boiler pump. Bathroom is 60 plus feet away and does not get hot water for about 3 minutes, temp set point of 120 degrees. I installed external recirc pump and tied it in to boiler connection points and changed dhw recirc to external recirc in boiler settings, which give choices of always on/ timed/ or aquastat. Im using aquastat so that was my choice. With a 20 degree differential set point of 100 degrees. So i thought with that setting when water temp drops to my aquastat setting the boiler should activate external pump and bring water temp back up to setting of 120degrees.

@@dwaynerenton1889 Sounds like the correct setup. Would check continuity of the aqua stat relay and voltages at your heater. Sorry I'm not really familiar with that setup - I'm just a homeowner who figured out a way to make mine smart, not a professional! Best of luck.

It will drill out any screw or bolt. The hollow hole is the part that breaks out because it's designed to keep you from removing it. Yours may be slightly different but if it's a screw the remover tool will back it out. You might just have to be a little more careful in holding the drill and starting carefully to center it. Best wishes.

@@ystebadvonschlegel3295 i wish I could send you a pic of what I am looking at! We built this house one year ago and this thing sprays out like a geyser every time I turn off the hose (even if I don’t have a sprayer attached at the end of the hose). It’s ruining the siding on my house. My little broken off screw thing is completely flat. So I just drill right on the flat part with this bit even though it’s isn’t already hollowed?

@@CBull015 Yes - yours does exactly what it's "supposed" to do. And yes it's a metal drill bit and that is likely soft brass. So long as you have a steady hand and go slow it will work fine. You are drilling a new hole with threads and so then the other side will back into those threads and then back the screw out. Just make sure the bit size you choose is smaller than the size of the screw you're trying to remove - if you drill past the threads into the surrounding metal it won't work.

Gosh thank you so much!

what part did you get to put on after you removed the anti siphon?