Active speakers have a lot of problems, watch this video before you buy one
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2019
- Active speakers five fatal flaws!
1. Audiophile grade Class A or AB amplifiers -- the kind any self respecting audiophile would buy - are too big to fit inside most active speakers!
2. Subjecting the amp to high sound pressure levels INSIDE the speaker cabinet can’t be good for sound quality, can it?
3. Speakers companies expertise is designing speakers, not amplifiers or crafting digital signal processing, so speaker designers have to rely on outside suppliers. Creating true synergy between the speaker, amp and processing to a high standard isn’t easy.
4. You’re stuck with the tech inside the speakers, which might be cutting edge when new, but will surely be outdated in five or ten years.
5. Speakers for the most part are very reliable, but electronics cramped inside speakers producing heat aren’t likely to survive long term. Service problems will require returning entire speakers to the manufacturer. If the amp or DSP companies are out of business you’d be out of luck.
BTW, Meridian Audio designed the first audiophile active speaker, the M1, in the late 1970s. Active speakers aren’t a new idea.
Follow me on Twitter: / audiophiliacman
Cant agree more. Active speakers might be a great idea. Active speakers with amplifiers inside speaker enclousure not so much. My 2 cents.
Yet that is the gold standard for recording studios. But then, audio engineers generally are not audiophools like the author of this video.
Hummm. I think both are good now. Class D boards such as IcePower and Hypex are so good now, they rival Class AB amps. They are also a lot more reliable and can last way longer than most Class AB designs. I still prefer my AB amp and passives, but I could see the advantages of Active speakers too. Speaker such as the Active Elacs or Active LS50 sound good. Paired with something like a Bluesound Node 2i and a REL T7i sub would be a slick system.
@@tallpaull9367 That sounds like a good system
That doesn't make sense. A lot of actives have separate compartments for the power modules.
The output equalized with the amp inside. You won't find a hifi speaker as accurate as any decent mid-range active monitor.
One of the best systems I've ever heard was a Linn active speaker setup. A well designed active speaker avoids the limitations of passive cross-overs, allow one specialized band-limited amplifier per driver, allow DSP correction of the speaker, and the list goes on. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a place for audiophile active speakers.
Well, most of the music listened by "audiofiles" is mixed and monitored over active speakers :)
Shhhh....don't let the truth out. It'll hurt the "audiophile" speaker companies.
Steve is talking about active speakers with passive crossovers, not passive speakers with active crossovers that you are referring to.
I've never disagreed with you more Steve. I use active ATC speakers (as do so many studios around the world). They are the best I have tried including all the big names, Wilson, Magico etc and before someone says that they are for telling you what's wrong with a recording, they should go listen to a pair.
Active speakers can have HUGE benefits over passives in terms of lower distortion, in built amps with active crossovers. Passive crossovers are big, bulky and microphonic, active crossovers and amps are small electronic circuit boards powered by big transformers and will take a bit of vibration. I have spoken to ATC about taking the components out of the speaker boxes and they claim it has negligible effect. What has a far greater effect is the fact that the amplification is a few inches from the driver it is controlling and there is one amp per driver tailored to its needs. There are no lossy speaker cables and the amps are designed to control each drive unit as a known quantity not any old speaker that is stuck on the end of it. There is no need for fancy expensive electronic cases as they are just internal. There are so many benefits to active speakers, there is only one negative, which is that you cannot choose the amplifier yourself and yes, that is fun. I have done enough of that personally and I sold my high end amps when I bought the actives and have never looked back.
I love ATC gear, I've wanted one of their actives for a long time, but I somehow ended up using their ATC CA2 pre and ATC P2 amp on my magnepan 1.7i and it's a fantastic match of gear. One day I'll get a pair of SCM50 or bigger.
Freezer Burn . Their electronics are good too. I had the scm50’s and they were great and I recently picked up a used pair of the big 150 towers. They are awesome.
You are liking the ACTIVE CROSSOVER. Refine your thinking. If you prefer a Class D switching amp over a Class A or A/B then bullshit.
Hey, please don’t assume professional studio engineers are audiophiles. I’ve worked with many over the years; precious few were.
Sadly that is true! Also, most musicians are not audiophiles either!! @@Saboda53
I’m replying to an old video here Steve, but I have been an Audiophile over 45+ years and as an electronics engineer, even built my own amps and speakers during that time, and owned/sold a lot of kit.
I think you have just one point here that I agree with - that for some audiophiles, the art (and it is an art) of matchmaking equipment for the sound they like (and that is subjective) is what makes life interesting, and it will never go away. I have spent many years doing just that, and it’s a perfectly valid option.
That said though, I must disagree with much of what you say about active speakers. I have had both passive and active systems and also a lot of what you describe about active speaker technology could be described as technically incorrect and actually misses the point.
The issue in all cases is how to reproduce sound to a point that each individual feels is as close to “perfect” as it could be.
There are many ways of doing that - and each to his (or her) own.
As an engineer and a purist, it’s about controlling as much as you can around that “perfect” reproduction.
The three big challenges are:
1: the right frequencies to the right drivers
2: matching amplification to the drivers
3: managing the room
All other stuff, such as noise floor, THD, IMD (for class D), current delivery, frequency response and a lot more - is taken as a given here - because most good kit addresses all these in bucketfuls.
Only by a manufacturer tightly controlling the crossover can 1: above be effectively addressed- and I’d argue only an active crossover (and possibly DSP) could do it perfectly. The same goes for impedance matching and matching drivers to amplification for 2:. As a speaker manufacturer - you have no idea what amp someone will connect, so you have to compromise to ensure it’s all likely to work with a big range of amplification. The same is true for amplifier manufacturers who must ensure their amp will work with almost any speaker someone wants to connect. Again in engineering terms - compromise wins.
As for 3, the only way of addressing this until a few years ago - was room treatment, DSP “room correction” or finding a way to build drivers into your wall..
Just look at studios. They’ve been doing that (and using actives) for years. I had a great pair of PMC actives that had formerly been in a studio - and they sounded great. They did need some corner/room treatment though - as otherwise they were overly “boomy” in my rooms.
Class D amplification is really, really good. I’ll just state that here.
Like valve amps, there are both fantastic and terrible versions, but technology now permits far tighter tolerances and excellent Class D is relatively inexpensive and easy to find and build. (e.g. Hypex, Purifi and others).
Some big box names even use an inexpensive module and charge a fortune for it!!
The latest iteration from Purifi - has a spec sheet that if I didn’t know better - could be binned as a fantasy claim - I think it can only be described as “as close to perfection as you can get” - it’s exciting times for class D.
So this leads me to my conclusion.
Implemented well (and there are some great examples now) a good active speaker setup can easily match or exceed the performance of seperates. It is in my opinion, usually the latter.
For me, music and listening come first, and the kit to do that well is purely secondary.
I have recently sold my last set of expensive amplification and passive speaker setup because I ended up only listening to/using the actives. I am spoiled with a pair of Kii Three’s- that also solve the “room problem” very effectively. They run cool despite 6 x drivers, 6 x amps and a DSP in each enclosure, they are incredibly revealing and set up right, very transparent, sound fantastic and are easy to listen to for many hours.
Why would I now want to spend valuable listening time to try and eke the last drop of performance out of a compromised amplifier and compromised speaker setup - and plaster the room with treatment - which may not even approach the performance I now experience?
I’m sorry Steve, but for this “music first” audiophile, active speaker technology has changed the way in which I reproduce the music I love. It’s so much less hassle - and IMHO sounds far better.
Other opinions are equally valid - but this engineer just wanted to set the facts straight for actives - it’s not all about $15 Bluetooth speakers...
I agree with you David. I am in the pro audio industry and gave in to active speakers.
I totally agree,except the for fact that even in active speakers is not so easy to figure out how all the components are matched together. In addition,companies are very stingy with all informations regarding that. That said,my next pair of speakers will be active for all the reasons you mentioned. If you have a good knowledge of actives, can you suggest real Hifi models in different price range? Let’s say 1000,2000,3000,5000,10000 USD?
@@mastergivenn I'm working on one right now. Give me two years and I'll get back to you
@@mastergivenn check ATC who produce active versions of most of their range, from the SCM19 upwards.
That's a wonderfully thought out reply that I am in total agreement with. In my opinion, the only negative regarding active speakers is the power cord and socket location. :)
1. Many audiophiles promote Class A, or AB amplifiers and rubbish class D. Yet, I'm not aware of any published engineering articles to show that either Class A or AB is sonically superior to the likes of the Hypex or B&O ICE power Class D designs. And these amp modules will fit nicely into a speaker and run very cool, whilst being exceptionally efficient
and powerful.
2. Do you have any peer reviewed engineering papers to support this, or is it audiophile pseudo science/opinion?
3. I totally agree that creating true synergy between the speaker, amplifier, and processing to a high standard isn't easy. Which is exactly one of the principal reasons in favour of fully active speakers, where the whole can be designed and matched by tertiary trained and highly qualified engineers with vast R&D budgets, as against the audiophile route of mixing and matching amps and passive speakers at an amateur, retail level, and hoping that the results will somehow be greater than the sum of the parts.
4. True - but so is everything else in the audio chain.
5. Class D runs very cool and very efficiently. Yes, if there's a problem you will have to take the whole box in to be serviced. A bit like a car really - when something goes wrong with it, most people just take it in to be serviced; they don't take out the entire engine and send it in on a truck if there's a problem just with that. Either way, passive or active, you're going to have downtime of your system, and having a separate passive amp is still no guarantee that there's going to be someone around to fix it.
6. You haven't mentioned the acoustic and electrical disadvantages of passive setups, rooted as they are in the 1950's methodology of system building versus the performance advantages of fully active speakers - which is in principle why pros use them.
Speaking as a classical musician, who is also interested in audio as to what works, what doesn't, what is fact and what is pseudo science and marketing claims in the audiophile world, and having made the transition and jump in performance to a fully active speaker system, I would never choose to go back to an passive system and audiophile methods of system building.
In my experience of the audiophile world, despite vehement protests that it's "all about the music" audiophiles are predominately focused on the kit, - it's sound, "upgrades", what the kit is doing to the music sonically, but hardly ever the music itself for it's own sake. And that's perfectly OK as a valid hobby that suits tinkerers and those who like to fiddle with the kit.
But for me, the music is the end goal and the kit simply exists to give me that, and a fully active, tailored system removes all the hit and miss, trial and error methodology of audiophile system building, and takes away all the unwanted obsessive elements such as swapping around expensive cables with different LCR characteristics to try and 'tune' the sound of the system - again at a fiddle and tweak amateur level.
I much prefer the integrated fully active speaker system to a separates passive system as a means to believable, realistic, engaging and authentic musical reproduction in the home minus all the audiophile pseudo science and OCD angst.
It's easier, simpler, more elegant from an engineering and aesthetic POV, and does the job better in almost all cases. A win-win in my view.
Thank you. Former classical musician here. Who has TIME to get everything perfectly matched (and do you have the space??)? I am so thankful I went with KEF LS50W. Great sound, low mess, life is good!
I will agree with one thing. It is a massive advantage to co-engineer a speaker and amp to work together. To even try to match that with separate components is kind of ridiculous if you think critically about that.
Yes thanks for this comment, I totally agree with you. I believe (fully) active speakers are the future!
@@Beos_Valrah Not the future, it is the present and has been for at least a decade now for recording studios, theatres and concert halls. It is only in the 'audiophile' world where they haven't quite caught on and that is because active speakers undermine all the high end audiophoolery that is promoted by vested interests, ie overpriced stereo component brands, audiophool magazines as they are corrupted by advertising dollars and subjective reviewers, such as Gettenberg who do not do objective testing, shun double blind testing, engage in magical thinking and earn a living by spreading the lies of high end stereo manufacturers.
@@prep74 You might be onto something there. I know that active speakers have been widely used in studios for many years, but I was more speaking of the "HiFi community" which as you said is strangely holding on to passive speakers.
I love my active Kii 3's. In most complex engineered systems the amplifier and the transducer are best designed together. In a high-quality active speaker, the amplifiers are then designed for each of the different transducers (tweeter...). I bought the Kii' 3's frankly because of their boundary management capability which is very hard to do as well with separates. Andrew Jones said in his interview with you something to the effect "when he sees how people actually place speakers he wonders why he works so hard designing them". In most practical speaker deployments (including those audiophiles you have interviewed), boundaries will compromise performance.
Mark Newhouse true! I hope in The future Kii audio will make a Kii One, smaller cheaper same basic principle.. not they are to expensive for my consience.:-)
Sure! Next level should be - buy directly active room! Buy the room and install it them build the house around it :). Here we go you have the best sound ever.
Of course people will put them as they like, and of course 2 way small speaker will nor resolve all possible problems in the audio field.
Potential problems and poor implementation of some designs doesn't rule out the potential for active designs to be amazing. Look at how many bad passive speaker designs there are.
On point!
Exactly.
Exactly. Just try Teufel Stereo L.
Someone should make a good active speakers with a 15 watt tube amplifier with tube rectifiers and high efficiency drivers with the only thing that’s digital is the WiFi, Bluetooth, DAC, and low powered computer chip.
Yeah, all his beef seems to be with class D and DSP becoming outdated, and he didn't even consider designs like the AE1 Active which is fully analogue and class A/B for that very reason. The benefits seem to be driver time-alignment and control of unwanted resonance. I do agree in theory about the amp being in a bad place for sensitive electronics (a big box of vibrations) but designers are clearly getting around this.
I think Genelec makes some good active speakers. That is what they have always done from the beginning of the company (1978). However Genelec speakers are very expensive. Enclosure is aluminium and very solid. In my opinion if you want good active speakers you should choose make what has always done those for decades.
Genelec does not make good active speakers. They make EXCELLENT ones....that kick the crap out of 99% of the passive models out there. Even better is ATC. Unfortunately, as you've pointed out, they're damned expensive, but you get what you pay for. I have Quad 12L Actives that I absolutely love.
Bizarre one for me SG, sorry. Not sure whether you've declared all this (misinformation) deliberately to stir things up and cause a reaction, more comments, exposure etc. Or whether you simply haven't done your homework and evaluated stuff the likes of Kii, ATC, Dutch & Dutch, Dynaudio, Piega etc. Quite disappointing either way :(
Pirate Logic make custom Servo systems. I got to discover them early since I live practically next door. Servo systems require an amplifier to be very close to the drivers, but it's soooo worth it.
Agreed. Would also recommend the Beolab 90's and 50's to add to your list - both engineering standouts to say the least.
i need your advice. i am at a crossroads: Either a DCS Bartok one box DAC and Streamer via XLR into Active ATC SCM 40s OR, DCS Bartok via a powerAmp of my choice into Focal Kanta 2s. Which solution is better?
Yes!!
There are soooo many active speakers other than the ones you've mentioned that are fantastic as well. I do not understand why SG is saying what he is because with his knowledge, it comes across as disingenuous at best. I've compared several passive versions of speakers to their active counterparts and every single active kicks the crap out of the passive version. And you can hear the difference in about 3 seconds.
Your arguments are based on a particular view to active speakers. Take a look back: The amps of the first active speakers where placed outside of the cabinet. Back to the current desings having the amplifier inside the cabinet. The amp found a way to go into the cabinet. I suppose that a tech can use the same way to fix an amp if needed.
The wind pressure inside the amp is relativ equal but you are true, some components can get mechanical torsion if placed wrong or mounted bad. But there is a very simple trick to avoid such trouble: Split the inside of the cabinet.
The amps for active speaker must not be build by the speaker manufacturere. Such devices can be bought by an electronic company.
My conclusion: If the construction and design is right, there is no reason not to by an active speaker.
Separate components and speakers came out from tube radios sets. Active. They came out for stereo and survived today with only one option - usually cheap and poor boom box .But even them in many cases in end of 70ties were pleasant to listen.
The ONLY legitimate negative about active speakers is the extra power cord, that's it.
My active speakers are from Backes&Mueller - a german company. 1. They'll update their speakers since decades. 2. I don't want to take too much time to find the right Power amplifier and speaker cables - I spend my time to find the "perfect" recording and listen to it. Finally - The important is what comes at the end to your ears. Thank you steve for your show and that I'm realize that I choose the best speakers - For Me!
Anyone who owns mid to high end actives - especially big 3 way mid field designs, will be completely disagreeing with you Steve.
Matching amps to quality drivers perfectly with huge amounts of power and dynamics, as well as resolving abilities on tap. Well, they can offer something very special - something only actives seem to achieve.
You still need a decent high resolving front end and a decent powered preamp, ideally with balanced XLR's ... Of course you don't always need a preamp, but I've found it more useful with sound benefits.
I'd bet the zero phase, flat response beats the SOO the down side of passive Xovers.
When "old schoolers" analyses active speakers, then this is what we get. I use ADAM AUDIO's S3X-H for personal listening, a 3 way active studio monitor speaker. I see many active speakers built similar to my ADAM, being one amplifier for each driver. This is what I see in many professional class audio, they implement one amplifier to drive one driver PERFECTLY. This way the manufacturer can match the driver directly to the amplifier. Use an A/B class amp to drive the tweeter, use class D amp to drive the woofer/sub/whatever. One perfectly implemented design like this sounds A LOT BETTER than trying to match a weird impedance speaker to an amp that sounds good at certain levels, but sounds weird at every other level. I still go with active speakers than trying to drive a passive speaker with an amp that might or might not match its impedance characteristics, not to mention the passive crossover, cables, etc...
Adam a5s active speaker user. I agree with you. We have the advantage of no shit with speaker cables. I have a cardas XLR cable between pre and the speakers. The pre has tubes which combines nicely with the Adams.
@@miepmiepzoefzoef I made my own interconnects, I use MOGAMI W2549 cables terminated with Neutrik's convertCON, and I like the sound A LOT - and it's cheap to build. I use NAD M51 as DAC/pre and after 6 years of use, I'm content. My system consists of:
1. A pair ADAM AUDIO S3X-H
2. One ADAM AUDIO SUB24
3. NAD M51 DAC/pre
4. Whatever computer/player/audio interface that I plug into it to make everything sing. Currently it's connected to a Mac Mini or a Macbook Pro, and Focusrite Audio interface (I need to hear my stage piano), an old Airport Express as Airplay end point, a SONY Blu-ray player to watch BD movies in stereo (yes, in stereo). For now, I haven't found a system that can match the dynamics of what my ADAMs can do for the price. For me, this is very close to my end game.
@Douglas Blake thus I prefer active speakers.
@@zzz2496 Subjective taste varies from person to person, you don't need to justify your preference by saying other people are wrong. I'm sure you're aware of that, of course.
@@mrpositronia I agree that taste are subjective. I'm not saying that others are wrong. For me personally, I'd start with a clean sheet (a properly calibrated active studio monitors, both in amplitude and phase response) then add my own adjustments to the voice. From my experience, I got what I want much faster than trying to mix-and-match expensive toys without proper "frame of mind".
I like to think that being an audiophile should be more about enjoying music than picking out and pairing countless combinations of gear, cables, and connectors. So from my perspective, anything that gets me to enjoying my music more easily is a good thing. Yes, being a gearophile can be fun (to a certain extent). But it can also get in the way of being someone who just enjoys the sounds.
I agree, and found it a ultimately negative part of my experience over the years; going fully active essentially gave me the musical enjoyment back - no more obsessive fiddling with the kit and worrying about 'upgrades' to 'improve' the sound and having that experience get in the way of simply enjoying the music.
@@Pisceanboi My friend, you just took one of two paths, you just run out of money to spend in our audiofile obsession!!!, or like me just got old and tired, which is valid too, greetings.
Reaaaaly? So why then musicians not just get one flat sounding instrument and not use only one instrument soe they will sound the same way always???
Seems like you are going from one marketing hype ( cables ) to other marketing hype ( active ) .....
You talk about the way an active speaker designer needs to coordinate with an amplifier designer to make a suitable amp for an active speaker. But in the passive speaker world, the is no coordination at all. It’s up to the customer to make the decisions about what amp is a good match for the speaker.
That's why audiophiles are audiophiles. They try to combine the right components to get the sound they're after. That quest is the beautiful thing of being an audiophile.
All you really need to worry about is matching the amps' gain. I have gone to all Bryston solid state AB amps to preserve my sanity, but when I first went active in 2011 I was chasing the amps "voice" as well as the speaker drivers'. I had tube amps on tweeters and mid-range and AB on mid-bass and D's on bass. It was all too absurd.
Amplifier companies better get with the speaker designers, or they will go out of business. Active speakers are the future.
@@r423sdex Yes, if you like to trade in for a better speaker every 3-5 years like a cell phone.
Actually that’s far from the truth. If you bug them enough the manufacturers will tell you what they tested the gear with while designing there products and will even give recommendations with there designs in mind . Eg Neat use naim as reference and naim now use focal, revel use Mark Levinson and other harman products and those are the best products to use with those electronics especially if you want hear what the the designer intended. But then preference and budget kick in and then it becomes a shit show. The only companies I would from active wise would be the ones that make there own electronics Atc for example.
The vast majority of recordings are monitored ( clue’s in the name) and mixed using active speakers, because they are the most accurate, analytical and revealing. I switched to active speakers ( best move ever made) after many years with a lot of different systems, including electrostatics with valve pre/power. Horns with pure class A transistor and SE valve. Transmission lines with various amps class A, AB, hybrid valve/ mosfet.
This is very far from reality. They are just small and convenient for usage in the nearfield. Also easily could be made flat. But have lots of troubles with dynamics. As you can not reproduce kick/drum, bass guitar, solo guitar and voice with one speaker, with good dynamics and low distortion! So this overhyped studio monitors are just, small, high quality, high price, flat speaker with low dynamics. And this is why EQ is essential part from every system, as people taste for tonality in addition room modes and other factors made listening to the music at different place very unique experience.
@@user-cb5tf6bh7t “trouble with dynamics “ so an active speaker with a 100W amplifier directly coupled to the HF drive unit and a 250W amplifier directly coupled to a LF unit will have less dynamics than a passive speaker driven by a 500W amplifier going through the most inefficient and inaccurate component in the entire system - the passive crossover?
@russellbaston974 Why would the passive crossover be inefficient and would somehow cut more than half of the power? Only problems that I see with passive crossovers are - it is expensive and it is fixed/not easy to change.
And BTW power is not the only parameter needed for the dynamic of the amp. You could have a powerful amp with lower dynamic compared to a low powered one. As noise also plays a role in dynamics. But how loud we can go without too much distortion is also important. As with quiet noise human hearing becomes more and more logarithmic and selective.
And what is the problem with feeding a passive speaker in bi-amped config? In this example with whatever amps you like and add DSP which could be state of the art and in total cheaper than a pair of quality monitors for example?
Then you can use a calibrated microphone which you can get for around 100$ and perfectly set, tune and align every part of your passive speaker.
But what I would like to emphasize about dynamics is not only amp characteristic!!!
Dynamic is also a speaker characteristic! And you can not get the same dynamic from an 8" speaker as from an 18" speaker, whatever the power and specs of the amp!
This is why by nature drums are big and loud. Lower the voice, bigger the drum. Same for the brass section. And for example acoustic guitars do not have even fraction of the dynamics that trumped has.
Then how can you listen to the drum acoustic guitar and trumped the small 5-8” speaker? There is one magic word taking over modern music and studio work - COMPRESSION. This is when you get great clarity with not enough dynamics. So now trumped, acoustic guitar and drum are in 2-3 dB next to each other. Then you go on some kind of live only acoustic event and you can not believe how live actually live music sounds. Compared to compressed things coming out from the small speakers BUT with the greatest clarity ever.
Just get one kick drum in your living room and hit it hard one time. Then listen to the recorded kick on the clearest nearfield monitors. You will get revelation :). Could be that you already know that, but anyway I think the example is good.
One problem with active speakers is that I can’t spend ages thinking about upgrading amps, synergy between components, trying out different combinations, etc.
I know right lol. It takes all the fun out of it!
Great sarcasm
Surely you can fiddle with the DSP when you don't need to instead ;-)
Well that's good, now you can spend more time thinking about the environment. 😊
All part of the fun of Hifi.
I run everything external on the active speakers I build including analogue Xkitz crossovers and Bryston amps (for that matter when I build passive speakers the crossover is external). That being said, Kii is really starting to harness technology and show us what active speakers are capable of. Both ATC and PMC active speakers have my respect as well.
@brian navalinsky how about KEF LS50W?
@@mtzl1930 great speakers, you won't get the passive ls50 to sound better.
@@mtzl1930 Never listened to them, but I really am starting to hear plenty of Class D amps that handle full frequency with authority. PS Audio and Nuprime come to mind. I am sure KEF did their research and there are some audiophile quality D class amp manufacturers in Denmark who probably set the European benchmark.
@@BrianNavalinsky I've listened those ones a couple of times in my local hi-fi store, I liked it and don't agree with @Steve Guttenberg Audiophiliac unfortunately!
@@mtzl1930 I have only heard the KEF Blade in the last ten years. The Blade was impressive. The KEF's from the 1990's were great speakers. The single point source thesis of the LS50 obviously has merit since Tannoy has made a living off of it. All my speaker designs are three or four way and pretty large. The last nearfields I owned were Vienna Acoustics Haydn 2's which were great, non-fatiguing speakers. I would assume the weak link in the LS50W would be the DAC and the amp. Steve has a point about technology moving on, but I still drag out my 1980 Klipsch Heresys for shits and giggles.
In reading about the design of the kef ls50 wireless, they put several years worth of effort into the design. I have a pair and Sound quality is excellent.
I also love my LS50W speakers. I have faith that the KEF designers have way more knowledge than I do in matching components, designing the DSP, and avoiding passive crossovers. Steve is a very knowledgeable audiophile, so I understand why he would have no problem selecting the right matching separates, but I suspect that to match the LS50W sound quality and spacial accuracy, I would have to pay orders of magnitude more money. I have had them repaired (under warranty), and it was easy for the tech to swap in the audio and power supply components. My only side effect is that I am no longer suffering from Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS).
regarding "flaws":
1) solved with class D
2) high sound pressure will not influence the electronics. this is not the lamps, which are sensitive to vibrations.
3) what better synergy then the one chosen by the manufacturer
4) amplification is a 100 years old technology
5) crossover in passive speaker is also made of electronic parts
I A/B'd Quad 12L passives against their active counterparts nearly fifteen years ago and the actives kicked the crap out of the passive version. In fact, my entire audiophile club felt the same way. I've now had my Quad 12L Actives for more than 12 years and they're still going strong. According to you, they're living on borrowed time. :D
If you buy active speakers, Steve will have to wait tables, basically.
No, he won’t. Precious few individuals are audiophiles. Was true ten years ago, is true today, and will be true ten years from now. Audiophiles enjoy thoughtful thinking from other audiophiles.
Same as it always was.
I feel that Steve might not be able to wait tables.
He can wash dishes tho .....
J/K
@surfitlive
Also the in ceilings would be 70v !!! 🤣😆😂
@@content4502 Steves at the age where he doesnt give a rats ass about what he does. If everything is ok with him, he'll do what he wants.
All that,
From someone who has no avi.
Steve is not that old .......
Oh but my JBL 305P MKII 's sound soooo good!!
Exactly. And I posted my disagreement with the approach. But to give Steve credit, his concerns may not really apply to professional gear, but they do, especially his concerns about DSP, apply to products like Meridian's.
they are for studios. i have the 308p.
1st Gen JBL LSR-305 were $200 a Pair
When I bought mine, the Presonus eris E5 were also $200 a pair
Now the JBL are $300 a pair and the BRAND NEW Presonus Eris ES XT are also $300 a pair
(PreOrdering them NOW)
Try beating them with separate components at that price and then we'll talk, otherwise Steve just sounds like a Troll
I don't need to spend $100,000 on speakers and amps to master on when these two gems are almost free by comparison
Lots of inaccuracies in this video. I'll go over each point:
1. Active speakers don't need to have amplifiers built into the speaker. Almost all active speakers made for hifi or studio monitoring are like this, but active speakers used for live PA/cinema sound often uses outboard crossovers and amps. There are a few hifi speakers like the JBL M2 that also uses outboard electronics. With those speakers, you can even use amps of your own choosing, as long as the amps are preceded by an active crossover with the right specifications for the speaker.
2. I have never seen a modern well-designed class AB or D amp have any problems with microphonics. Microphonics is mostly isolated to tube amps and turntables.
3. For smaller audiophile niche manufacturers like Zu Audio, this might be the case. But don't tell me that big manufacturers like Genelec, Dynaudio, Harman, Yamaha etc. don't have the resources to hire amplifier specialists to design amps. Harman even owns Crown Audio and Mark Levinson. For companies of that scale, there's plenty of amplifier competence to go around.
4. Maybe if you own an active speaker with a lot of cutting edge DSP tech, then this might be true. For amps I will disagree with this - a good amp today will be a good amp in 5 years. After 10 years it might need some servicing like most electronics.
5. Active speakers have been in use in pro audio for several decades now, and this is not a problem. Because active speakers are more efficient than passives and each amplifier channel works within a limited bandwidth, they don't need have overbuilt amps like passives, so heat is less of an issue.
There are a lot of benefits to active speakers that passives don't have. They are much more effective with better damping factors, as each amp is connected directly to it's corresponding driver instead of having to work through a passive network of resistors that's trying to level match the woofer to the tweeter. There's no power being wasted as heat in the crossover. Then there's the benefits of active crossovers, they are way better than passive crossovers (much lower intermodulation distortion), and they are cheaper to manufacture. They also allow the speaker designer to better tweak the low frequency roll-off of the woofer, so you often get one octave more usable bass output with an active speaker compared to a similar passive. And with modern DSP based crossovers, there's just so much more you can do with them in terms of tweaking, which isn't possible with passive crossovers.
Finally, I'll end this rant with a point on semantics: The terms "active" and "passive" refer to the crossover type, not whether the speakers have integrated amplifiers ("powered"). Active speakers use active crossovers, passive speakers use passive crossovers.
I admit that I was shocked to hear Steve spew an entire video of misinformation. And I'm a big fan of his.
All correct, thanks for your service!
Although it’s true that most existing audiophile speaker companies are not experts in DSP and amplifier technology, two of the best performing new speakers are actives from a new breed of audiophile speaker companies (Kii and Dutch & Dutch) that do have that expertise.
Both of these speakers on on my list to audition for my End of Life, Get Off the Audiophile Merry-go-Round speakers.
Very much agree having heard the Kii 3's. I'd also add Beolab 90's to your list - state of the art acoustic and electrical engineering.
@@charlesgrubbs2101 try some Genelecs,too. Happy user here!
I love my Kef ls50w's, and I'm going to assume that Kef being a speaker manufacturer know what they are doing, and so do the people they got to design and build the amplifiers they shoved in their little boxes. One thing I know for sure is Kef knows more than I do and I'm grateful for that. Oh assumptions eh Steve.
Ditto
The renowned ATC active monitors are used the world over and are reckoned to be the best of their genre .I had the scm100 active towers for a few years i swapped for the more wife friendly Meridian DSP 8000se .Unfortunately Steve would be out of a job if the word got out
what about powered subwoofers? Aren't they plagued by the same problems Steve mentioned
Glenn Hoffman no because you can still choose your amp to drive the main speakers all the sub woofers amp does is relief or help the main amp from some low frequencies
Some things apply, some don't. Class D is easier to make work well with a single driver and very limited, low only, frequency range. Also, since bass requires more power than the rest of the audio spectrum, there's a bigger "payoff" for going class D in a subwoofer.
Glenn Hoffman
To a lesser degree, yes.
But only below 100hz.
I still run a pair of REL plate amps separate from their subs;-)
In my opinion, and experience, not as much. A class D amp does a great job at 200hz and below. If your amp fails, or a leap in technology occurs, or you want to upgrade your amp, there are great amps available that will fit into the existing mounting panel of your sub.
As far as the effects of vibration on the amp, it probably depends on the sub and the amp. My wife keeps a vase and picture frame on top of my sub. Even at a volume that vibrates the dishes, the items on the enclosure stay put. I built my enclosure and it took several attempts to get to that point but I am very pleased. It is a bottom firing end table.
The differences between amplifiers are usually smaller than the differences between your left and your right loudspeaker.
No way sir. Class D and Class A are worlds apart.
@@mag-wp6yt -- Yeah, an amp built around the best (Hypex and IcePower) Class D output modules won't heat up your listening room and spike your electric bill as effectively. BTW, somebody named "Brigitta" is generally not a "sir."
@@mag-wp6yt The early class D amplifiers did have some disadvantages, but not modern Devialet. Try them, they can be adjusted to the loudspeaker.
But it is different with active loudspeakers, where they are already best fit to the only loudspeaker.
There are no more passive crossovers between amplifier and loudspeaker chassis.
There is a DSP inside, which can do much more . . .
@Steve Tllsdaleys -- They're certainly more important than the minuscule changes in sound quality that deep-pocketed, fanatical audiophiles have convinced themselves are overwhelmingly significant when they're actually barely audible or even identifiable as superior. A tiny adjustment in speaker positions is much more likely to result in a meaningful improvement than switching from a couple of relatively thrifty Hypex NCore Class D monoblocks (some assembly required) to a pair of $20K+, 100+ kG Class A iron ingots cum de facto room heaters, because the law of diminishing returns and the stark limitations of human aural perception apply so severely to the amplification aspect of sound reproduction.
@Steve Tllsdaleys better for the environment.
ATC makes audiophile grade active speakers.
We heard a pair at an audioshow and the sound was incredibile.
The matching of amp to drivers and the elimination of a passive crossover is why active speakers often outperform passive models.
Atc makes reliable and serviceable class A/B amplifiers built into their loudspeakers.
Also Steve Nuprime makes a hybrid Class A/D amp tuned to emulate a tube amplifier it costs the same as the Schit which is 20 watts vs the Nuprime which is a 120.
We do prefer our larger class A amplifiers but the Nuprime is ridiculously good for $700 as it is compact and runs warm it does showcase how technology is evolving.
ATC and Meridian are a couple of the few manufacturers of actives that do it well. Many just slap a cheap chip amp into a pre-existing design.
@@rotorfix Also very good are 'Musikeletronic Geitian'
What would be classed as an audiophile grade active speaker? KEF LS50's? I would try not to be too myopic in this regard.
You do bring up some good points, though a good active speaker would have its circuitry isolated from the drivers. This would make it easier to service if required, say if the circuitry was at the bottom of the box in its own compartment. I would also hazard a guess that speaker manufacturers, well the top end ones, would engage experts to design an active component that would have synergy with the drivers.
Audiophiles appreciate good sound, no matter where it comes from. And if they can get great sound by not spending mega bucks, then even better. It should all be about enjoying the music, not continually criticizing it. Think of all the labels that are assigned to each bit of equipment? Warm, bright, thin, resolving, etcetera, etcetera.... This is the problem that many audiophiles struggle with. Trying to continuously find fault with the equipment they're listening to.
How depressing can a hobby get when this is the norm & you are never satisfied? Don't forget to just *enjoy* the sound you're listening to. Well known tip. The sound gets better with every glass of, (insert your favorite alcoholic beverage here).
Many audiophiles remind me of snobby food critics. They lose the, "phile" in "audiophile" to become an, "audiocritic". Keep it real!
So true, I actually often find myself criticizing the sound too and it really takes the fun away!
I see your points.
When I am looking for a dedicated music-playing space I will probably look into DACs AMPs and passive speakers.
But whilst my space is limited and my music playing is handled mostly by my computer, active bookshelf speakers are the best solution for me when it comes to making the most of space.
I have more experience with active studio monitor from the professional audio field and they have none of the problems you outline. For the first time this one doesn’t earn a thumbs up :-(
Vincent Renaud Only reasons 4 and 5 in his description above are valid to me..
What does the “professional audio field” have to do with audiophiles? 😂
@@Saboda53 lol love it... audiophiles and HiFi marketing go on and on ad nauseum about "listening the way the artist intended" - without any consideration at all to the reality of a recording studio environment and what/how the artist and engineers were actually listening during production... the disconnect is incredible....
It’s rarely under 100 degrees in the summer where I live. No hot running amps wanted. Paul from PS Audio standing by their products as their best ever and John Atkinson giving thumbs up on a top of the line NAD integrated makes me think it will soon be a class D world(at least for me). Active speakers with perfect phase and time coincidence I would love to try. Just keep it simple to use is all I ask.
Didn't speak, at all, about how Active speakers SOUND!! Surely that matters - right?
That's the dirty little secret about his review. Glad you noticed.
Is it good or bad ? For the actives
@@wicomms The BEST! I've compared the exact same active speaker to its passive counterpart and it only takes 5 seconds to hear about much better actives are.
@@ayokay123 ok.. btw I am using Fluance active bookshelf speakers. Amazing
For me, one of the biggest problems with actives is that all that delicate circuitry is inside the cabinet and being subjected to huge vibrations from the speakers. The louder, the worse it is. Plus, there is electromagnetic interference, RFI, heat bulid up and more besides.
It's just a really bad idea.
Anyway, I hate vibrations and that's why I prefer headphones which usually far exceed speakers even in the bass and don't interact with the environment.
I'm glad you agree with me with active speakers. A stupid bloody idea.
I completely disagree. Amplifier circuitry is not delicate in any sense, everything is big and sturdy built (capacitors, transistors, resistors, whatever) and everything is mounted properly that minute vibrations will not affect anything (for god's sake, everything soldered on, or bolted on with nut and bolt). EMI is not a problem IMHO, there is no high frequency clock generator in an amplifier. RFI from the amp it self is non existent, it is prone to one though - but proper shielding will block ANY RFI that is virtually non existent. Heat build up is easily solvable by properly designed thermal transfer system.
Few grams of speaker cone that moves the air at very tiny mass is no comparison to a soldered connection, tiny wind movement will not affect anything, not mechanically, not electrically - measure it if you don't believe me. A properly built active speaker that the amp part is properly "boxed" in will experience virtually NOTHING. The only thing that will affect the electronics mechanically is when you bang the speaker enclosure with a sledge hammer at 20 inch/s, that ought to do it.
@@zzz2496 Well, those are interesting points. However, if you then put that circuitry inside a speaker cabinet, it will be subjected to the huge vibrations coming from the drivers themselves. Worse, the circuits will become massively infected even overdosed with magnetic interference.
Perhaps, I should qualify myself, yes the components are sturdy enough but the delicate signals having to travel and negotiate the sometimes complex paths of an amplifier especially say a digital one, are not and are hugely at risk of corruption by being placed in such close and frankly unnecessary proximity to speakers.
If all this were not the case, why else are there such things as shielding, isolation, mass damping with both hard and soft materials, used and boasted of by the hi end audio manufacturers.
I've just spent the last four years researching the area of materials science, and what I have found has amazed me.
I can now listen to my equipment massively upgraded by applying various damping, isolation, earthing and shielding techniques at a fraction of the cost most manufacturers charge and so I would never advocate active speakers. It's always better to keep things fairly separate.
As for EMI and RFI, digital amplifiers will emit spurious noise and since most speakers aren't shielded, RFI and EMI from OUTSIDE like mains cables for instance will still be a problem.
I cannot emphasise enough how important it is to shied EVERYTHING. Even your speakers. I know right. Who would have thought. Everything is still a potential aerial when all is said and done. And I've demonstrated all this for myself to great effect.
Try it out. Be amazed. It really makes a difference.
Finally, if everything were measurable on the test bench, maybe there wouldn't be so much difference in subjective opinion and such furious debate.
I haven't measured, and I've no intention. My ears are way better than any measurements.
@@CliveRaynor personally, I like things that are measurable objectively. Some shielding on the amplifier chassis can affect greatly on sound quality in a noisy environment - as in RF. Properly designed amplifier should have adequate shielding on it's amplification stage to reduce/eliminate the microphonic effects - but this does not happen at all on a digital amplifier (PWM). An amplifier unit inside a loud speaker enclosure is very well protected from it's environment because it is being "boxed" by wood-like material all over and a thick metal plate as it's base. This will reduce the effect of RFI and EMI all together. Radio Frequency that are radiating all around us are very weak in signal strength and will not be able to penetrate a thick metal plate, nor the MDF/plywood enclosure. And if the maker of the active loud speaker system is good enough, there should be faraday barricade covering the audio pathways - or similar shielding. As for the vibrations of air within the enclosure, once more - the stuffs that are soldered on the PCB will not vibrate along with the air moving within the enclosure because the air mass within the enclosure is very tiny in mass. Not to mention that the whole component's (the PCB and all) resonant frequency is well beyond the capability of a minuscule woofer that's powering the "vibrational structure". It is very very unlikely. But then again, I personally like active speakers not because of what they're made of, but because the way they are designed, built, tested, and tuned to a certain performance level - which when executed properly will results in a GREAT sounding, and very practical system. It is better IMHO.
All speakers contain electronic components!! That's what the crossover is :-)
These complaints are outmoded. The real reason behind them is that it takes a big part of the hobby -- and the personal pride that goes with that hobby -- away from the hobbyist. The fact is, properly-designed amp-speaker integration/synergy is the next frontier of audio excellence.
Bruce Morgen, you are so right.
I don’t see how that is a “fact”.
@@Saboda53 Fact or not, I think he is right. And the crux is the active crossover, not the active speaker. Active crossovers are the future. Integrated as active speaker or as separates for the audiophiles.
There are exelent exemples of active speakers, mainly in the studio and live sound world.
Active speakers can have different amplifiers for each driver, and perfectly matched.
So can passive speakers.
@@johnlebeau5471 not so sure about perfectly matched. Unless the amp is especially designed for the speaker driver.
@@r423sdex Not that hard. I have a tri-amp system with drivers ranging from 93db to 114db. Two watt s.e.triode amps on each, volume matched with the active crossover. It sounds fantastic. As a matter of fact, that speaker caused me to get the Mark Levinson amps I mention in my other response on this thread.
@@johnlebeau5471 what did you have to spend to match the sound quality of active speakers.
@Dave Micolichek Steve seems to care.
If Steve was trying to get a debate going here he sure achieved that.😂
Steve disliking
class D amps another debate.
No, he has only managed to make himself look clueless - like most of his videos.
‘Outdated’ term appears too often in the video for someone who promotes on his channel a lot of retro stuff.
I was thinking the same thing - keeping up with the latest in vacuum tube amplification!
@Dave Micolichek no they are not, that's why we have got transistors. Things move on. 😁
@Dave Micolichek And valves....blow! :)
@@randszzob8590 and nukes are da bomb .... 😂
The first active speakers I ever heard were the John Bowers Active 1's back in 1986, and I was shocked by their dynamics, speed, and detail. These are qualities that I feel remain in most good active speakers. Multi-way passive speakers suffer from having a bunch of Caps & Inductors stuck between the drivers & the amps, and it's a degradation that we have all become accustomed to. I have many passive speakers, and only recently purchased a pair of ADAM S-series active studio monitors. They are shockingly great sounding! They have "that thing".... speed & detail, that most passive speakers smear over. Yes I still have my passives, and they do other things really well. I disagree with Steve's complaint about the amp components being inside the speaker cabinet.... most high end actives have the electronics in a sub enclosure. True.... they are subjected to some cabinet vibrations, but not all the pressures inside the main speaker cavity. Yes I do worry of the day that one might die, and I need to send it in.... hopefully not to Germany!
Sorry but digital and analog filters suffer from very same phase problems. And you can not solve them by just going passive to active. They just put more effort to make speaker better, and them ask for bigger price. very simple.
In advocating active systems, the eminently respectable German magazine image hifi writes:
“…refrain from the baublery with power amplifiers and loudspeaker cables. Thus
with active configurations alone one can expand into the very best reproduction of
music. No driver, as perfect as it may be, can give back what the passive crossover
network takes away from the signal.” (02/2001)
I have been using my designed 4 way active speakers with external amps and dsp since 2003 and can only agree with your assertions,in regard to the one box does all, monitors.,
I bought Hypex FA503 plate amplifiers and built my own 3-way speakers around them. I spend like 2500 $ on the whole project. I do not know of any passive system below 20.000 $ that can even come close. I think that active speakers are the future of HiFi. The DSP itself can't get obsolete as it only does digital crossover. The only thing that can get obsolete are the DACs in my opinion, but Hypex offers also modular solutions, where you buy power amps, power supplies, dac board and DSP separately, so you can upgrade any of those components along the road. I know that separating the amps from the speaker cabinet is a better choice. I think that in couple of thousands region active speakers will have everything build in, and in hi-end segment the electonics can be outside the cabinet, modular and upgradeable.
It's worth mentioning that "active speaker" can also mean a speaker box that utilizes an external active crossover, which allows you to independently amplify each driver. It's particularly useful for line arrays and can enable you to overcome the myriad of compromises found even in the very best of passive crossovers.
Same as you can add multi amps and DSP to every passive speaker. So the questions is more like custom vs appliance that you can not customize at all or you can but you are limited.
KEF X300A, KEF LS50 wireless. Zero problems. Great sound.
If all hi-end sub woofer is active then why can't bookshelfs as well. It also remove burden of getting a matching Amp.
I have Swans Mk200 Im happy with it. Its compact and portable as well
I agree now mass market and mid audiophile powered speakers will use cheap Chinese class D amps and charge over the top prices for them
You're bench racing, Steve. Theorizing in the void. Listen to the Eikons and the Kii Threes, then comment. You pass over the reasons for active speakers: number one the ghastly crossover between the amps and the drivers. If there is one thing that is a bottleneck it's that. Another positive is a servo-feedback loop between drivers and amplifiers to correct anomalies in driver behavior at different amplitudes and frequencies. This is simply out of the question passively. I don't have active speakers, but I would have the Kiis in a heartbeat. I may biamp my system, which is essentially making an active system except the amps (tube) won't be inside the speaker cabinets.
You are liking the ACTIVE CROSSOVER. Refine your thinking. If you prefer a Class D switching amp over a Class A or A/B then bullshit.
You have too much free time to sit around dreaming up problems that does not exist
You have too much free time to sit around listening to this nonsense.
My
Klipsch R-15PM Powered Monitors went in the garbage right after the warranty ran out... Plate amp died... Never again!!! :(
It's made in China and you should be buying from decently made products of An Origin that respect workers and their customers
Steve may be missing a point. I have active speakers (Kanto TUK and SVS SB-2000 subwoofer) because I wanted higher-end sound but I live in a very diminutive space. Had I resided in a "normal" sized dwelling, I may have opted for larger and more versatile separates, but I couldn't be happier with the impressive audio, the imaging and the definition I get from my active setup under the circumstances.
🔴 Now I am waiting for your video on TOP 5 REASONS TO BUY ACTIVE SPEAKERS 🔴
1. Save space
2. Save money (on cables and extra mark-ups for additional product)
3. Amp-driver combo are well calibrated or compatible.
4. Just return the whole speaker to 1 company for repairs
5. I'm not good enough to think of any more reasons. Lol
@@DarkPa1adin they sound better.
I have a pair of KRK that I've been using for my receiver and a great sounding Mackie Bluetooth set. There's also a lot of dumbass people who push speakers more than they can handle.
Or like most people.They sound decent and I don't have or want to spend the money on audiophile level speakers.But they will not compare to the upper high speakers this is a no brainer.
@@j-rod6420 you don't have to spend stupid money, to get so called audiophile speakers. Most audio equipment is way over priced.
All theoretical problems. I´m very happy with my 4 Way Grundig Monolith 120 active Speakers. they have 4 power-amps per speaker. Build in 1983. Reconditioned by a local specialist last year. Grundig XV7500 Preamp.
It may well be difficult to match speaker drivers to amplifiers in an active speaker, but how much more difficult is it to match an amplifier to a passive speaker when neither was designed (usually) to work with the other, and where the crossover points keep changing with speaker impedance. I see no real reason why active speakers need to have the amps inside the boxes. And having maybe 4 or six amps plus a digital or analogue digital crossover give an audiophile even more gear to keep changing and fiddling around with - something many people like doing. The active system I have designed and built (and still experimenting with) has external amps and speaker cables (six pairs of them at present). I get tremendous sound levels from tiny amps by avoiding power losses in passive crossovers. You might need more amps but they can be smaller, low power ones, especially the tweeter amps - class A would be great. But I agree with you that putting the amps into the speakers for anything other than small two way systems is probably not a great idea.
I wonder if mass-market all-in-one speakers are actually active. Sure, the amplifier may be in the box, but I doubt they're using multiple dedicated channels of amplification with active crossovers for each frequency range.
I bought a pair of actives, the speaker+amp classic type, without wireless, dac or any other digital tech inside. They sound significantly better than my equivalent price setup. They occupy less space. As much as I love gear, I am not going back to passives. It's more expensive, occupies more space, and encourages too much tinkering.
Same here, recently, I bought a $80 pair of JBL 104 active speakers and connected them to a mac mini as desktop speakers for my office. The sound and the stereo imaging coming out of that little 4.5inch coaxial active driver blows my mind every time compared with my “fancy” stereo in the living room. Like you, I’ll probably never go back to passives or at least, not before fixing my living room’s acoustics.
NOBODY who's ever had the opportunity to compare an active speaker with its passive counterpart would ever choose the passive version as sounding better. Nobody. It's why I tell budding "audiophile" enthusiasts to nip it in the bud and go directly to active speakers. The ONLY legitimate negative about actives is the extra power cords. And for the record, I compared my active Quad 12L's the passive version that came out at the same time. BIG difference that you could tell within seconds, and yes, they were volume matched.
@@ayokay123 Agreed, I also recommend actives to newcomers now. I am heading to the shop today to order a power block and power cords. Since I don’t have to worry about swapping amps/speakers any more the upgradeitis itch went to wires. Honestly I don’t expect much, if any improvement. We shall see.
@@ayokay123 I own Klipsch Fives (powered) and loved them at first. After about 6 months, my ear has become (I think) better, more sensitive, sophisticated, something. I now want a bigger sound, one that fills the room, one that feels like the instruments are in the room. I considered upgrading to KEF LS50 wireless 2. But after some research I concluded (perhaps incorrectly) that I needed a separate amp and passive speakers. I’m on the verge of purchasing a Rotel integrated amp and JBL l82s. Before I do, if anyone thinks a powered speaker would give me the same sound, please tell me. In my limited knowledge on the subject, it seems most powered speakers are smaller and would not deliver the bigger, room filling sound. Am I wrong? (My room is 20’ x 15’ and I listen almost exclusively to vinyl.) Thanks!
@@bbutler5090 You are entirely incorrect. Active speakers come in all sizes and if you're listening in the far field (look that one up), you should pick up some far field active monitors. Then again, good large active speakers cost big bucks. Look up Genelec and ATC and see for yourself.
It was 1977 and it was the Meridian M1: I always preferred the Linn/Naim approach of active external crossovers and multiple amplifiers and used to demo them when I worked for a high end store in the 80s. It was about quality and flexibility as opposed to convenience. Anything up to six huge mono block power amplifiers powering double tri-amped speakers. Good times 😊
Great setup in it's day - SBL's or Isobariks. But hideously expensive given all the extra boxes, metalwork and racks to carry it all. Needless to say active is no more in Naims lineup; instead we have the Statement amp costing the price of a new house (literally) in my neck of the woods. I've heard it and very good it was to, but I also felt it was the most overrated and overpriced amp I've ever heard. Julian would be rolling in his grave.
ATC do a good job with active speakers, using purely Class AB amplification, no DSP in sight. They also manufacture every element in-house, so the synergy is guaranteed. Not forgetting, apart from a six year warranty on all components, they are still servicing/upgrading customers speakers that are 20+ years old.
All other issues aside, the sound produced inside a speaker will not effect the sound quality produced by the amp. Electrical noise causes issues as do the levels of mechanical noise in an industrial environment (the electromechanical noise). If the driver is shielded there should be no effect on the electrical components within an enclosure.
So much misinformation in this video. Sadly the host doesn't realize he may be suffering from a cognitive bias known as Dunning Kruger Effect.
Ouch! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Audioholics,
Thanks, troll.
Guess why i subscribe to Steve ,
But not you.
------------------------------------------------------------
Debunked is a religious term, from the Skeptics Religion.
You know. The one that doesn't exist ....
@@content4502 cool, but note the # of subscribers to my channel vs this snake pit of misinformation.
@@Audioholics Just looked at the numbers and noticed that our guy Steve is in the lead:)) Guess you'll have to try harder.
@@janezzumer1639 so? He’s still a dinosaur.
Engineers controlling many parts of a system is better than them only controlling one variable. Don't see why you list that as a disadvantage.
Because you want Steve
to control the Speaker before a Train Diving Engineer puts a 5 cent part in a Speaker. When you hear the word Engineer run fast and be quick in most cases
Steve also said DAC,s change every day it's True better and Better this is a great time for audio. who want's
crap in side a 5 year old Speaker No Control plus who wants class D
10 k You might get a good one
@@twochaudiomg2578 If the 5 cent part lasts and works to beyond the drivers ability to handle it, so be it.
@@twochaudiomg2578 DACs and amps are already transparent to the human ear. It doesn't matter to me if they improve if human ears can't perceive it in a blind test or it can't be demonstrated with a null test.
(Note: I don't care if anyone/everyone thinks a blind test or null testing isn't valid. That's what I value. Call it a personal preference if you're a subjectivist.)
I use plate amps for my 2 subwoofers and I have given some thought to the problems of vibration, internal air, etc. but the experimenting I been able to do ( using outboard amps ) hasn't seemed to make a noticeable difference to me. Doesn't mean there isn't any measurable difference I just don't hear any on my gear.
ATC have been making actives since the 1980s, producing every part in house. AB amps. Active crossover, works better. ATC don't muck up much
Hey Steve, I have a few pairs of HEDD monitors that use ICEpower Class D amplifiers, perfectly matched to their AMT and bass drivers. The same amplifiers are found in expensive integrated amplifier solutions. They are fully analog speaker though. As for DSP, unless you go to the top of JBL Pro line, EVE Audio or Kii, you're right to question the longevity of the product.
Steve, you show a Class A amplifier and argue that such an amp would not fit inside a speaker cabinet. That is not what the manufacturers are doing: they are fitting very high quality digital amps and also very high quality switching power supplies inside these speakers. These units are very small and produce very little heat. Usually each speaker unit is driven by its own amp with very short connections between amp and speaker. The speaker membrane is much better controlled than with external wires in a traditional setup. Furthermore the built-in DSP is correcting each speaker individually: frequency response, delay and phase. This would be very difficult to achieve with separate units often from different manufacturers. The end result can be astonishingly good as in the Grimm LS1. I agree with you that servicing might be more problematic in case of a malfunction compared to traditional systems. But sound quality is not by definition less than audiophile. Development continues and DSP and digital seem to be the way to go in the persuit of quality and low distortion.
switch-mode power supplies kill dynamics in sound, even high quality ones are no match for a good linear power supply. any reasonable audiophile should avoid them like the plague. your obsession with low distortion tells me you have the wrong goals in mind for audio. the goal of audio reproduction is to add the magic back into the recording, because the recording process sucked all the magic out of it. If you're obsessed with low distortion and accuracy, you are only going to reproduce boring, lifeless, bright music with no texture or realism. The goal of audio reproduction is not to reproduce the recording with as little distortion as possible, that's completely misguided. The goal is to add desirable distortions back into the recording, which is why people use tubes and vinyl, because it adds that magic back into the recording which was sucked out of it during the recording process.
@@vladg5216 Some switch-mode power supplies (especially the low cost types) can kill dynamics in sound. There are switch-mode power supplies that match the best linear power supplies. Low distortion is a legitimate goal to improve sound quality; it is not an obsession. I am an engineer; I have been trained to measure and listen and to do blind tests to get the best possible results. Audiophiles call it magic; we call it acuracy.
Anyone who is skeptical active speakers should try listening to a Yamaha DBR or DXR. I am sure you will be impressed. Part of the reason for the impressive performance might be that the Yamaha DSP implments the crossover function without any changes in phase - something you can't easily do with analog components. In my experience, the Yamaha speakers can provide high quality and high volume sound more simply and cheaply than any other approach. But there is one major problem of powered speakers that nobody talks about: You will have major problems with ground loops if you don't power all the speakers from the same receptacle - and this can be impossible to do in a big room. To get around this problem, I have had to user fiber-optic connections to all the speakers.
For people who aren't that interested in enjoying mixing and matching their separate gear, an active speaker delivers a superb final result of sound and that's it. These days many sound simply fantastic starting with the inexpensive forerunner HiVi Swans M200 and Edifier R2000DB. Then there's much more expensive such as by Dutch for around $10k. Hey, we can't argue with the final result, great sound. However, there's nothin' to play around with!!! Last, we cant complain in general about Class D, the Crown XLS Drivercore series sound as resolute as the vast majority of any other amplifier out there for very little money so class D inside an active speaker can be terrific. Cheers, Mario
Steve. I suggest you look at Bryston Active speakers where the electronics are traditional massive class A/B amps outside the speaker and the speaker itself is a traditional passive assembly less the internal crossover. The DSP is between the preamp and amp. This is in my opinion the best of all worlds. The customer gets to choose all the components, and the speaker drivers are totally controlled by the output stage of the amp and its inherent damping factor. There is no storage of energy within the LRC of a series xover. Further the DSP can be programmed with many parametric corrections that fix flaws within the cabinet and driver to far greater precision than a passive xover could ever imagine. Think FIRR filters for example. Many audiophile companies are just starting reimagine the active possibilities. You should do some research on these solutions. They are not the solutions and limitations that you discussed in your video. Opportunity for a new days video.
Yeah the #2 in his list just says utterly "clueless" (also the M1 statement). professionals will match an amp and speakers better than any laymen by about 100x (current tech is beyond a high school diploma, u need a masters in signals and systems). Modern recording studio monitors are active for this reason. "Audiophiles" are more about the hobby aspect really.
They're just a bunch of grumpy boomers who hate change and stay in the past.
Elac Navis ARB-51 does a great job balancing the active / passive benefits. They have an internal (basic) streamer and dac that can be bypassed with upgraded outboard components. I have a SimAudio Moon 390 network player with dac feeding them resulting in much better sound quality (no surprise)
I got to hear the Navis Arb-51s at axpona this year myself and I thought they were great. I honestly would like to hear Steve Guttenburgs rebuttal in reference to these speakers and Andrew Jones argument for these being active speakers, especially since I'm pretty sure he was at axpona this year and got to demo them.
Dan Filocha agreed. I’m convinced this modern era of next gen active speakers (Kii, KEF, Elac, Genelec, Dali, GoldenEar) are the future. Check out Darkos review for more insight.
Naims DBL / NBL / SBL / IBL / SL2 / Allae and Credo speakers were all designed with external passive crossovers so that they could be upgraded to be run active with an external active crossover and external amplifiers - back in the day a "Six Pack" Naim DBL system (driven by half-a-dozen NAP135s) was always quite a thing to behold! In fact only a couple of Naim speakers were designed with internal crossovers and therefore exclusively for passive use - those being the Arriva and n-Sat (and the three centre channel speakers - the n-Cent, Axess and Axcent).
I ran both DBLs and NBLs active (on Naim NAP300's) for a number of years using the DBL and NBL SNAXO active crossovers and the difference isn't at all subtle between passive and active operation.
Nowadays that approach is carried on by companies such as Kudos who make the passive crossovers in their S20/S10 and Titan range of speakers able to be easily bypassed from the back panel to do exactly the same.
(Disclosure : I worked for Naim for 12 years and at the time they had a decent 'staff build' scheme so I have a 'reasonable' setup. I also have several pairs of Kudos speakers and worked closely with the owner of Kudos to get the active SNAXOs for use with their two-way and three-way speakers properly designed and voiced.)
Active Isobariks with NAP 135s or even NAP 250s (pre Ivor and Julian’s fall out) was also quite something. Glory days.
I’ve had Linn systems with external amps and crossovers for about the last 16 years. In reality it’s no more hassle than a conventional passive system but you get the sonic benefits of an active system. I can vouch for them, 16 years is a long time to stick with them.
I have also for 25 years sounds amazing
I have as well - getting on for 25 years in my case. As you say the improvement in sound quality and musicality is clearly there -still very happy and no need to change.
Peter Goss I’ve been listening to Linn active systems for about 25 years, a family member bought an active Keilidh setup in 1994... but I was 10 years old at the time so I was way off being able to own something like that. I bought a Majik for my 18th birthday, Keilidhs shortly after and added an LK100 and active cards when I was 19, 16 years ago. I’ve got tri amped active Ninkas now and I love them, had them years and I’m in no rush to change.
I have active Keilidhs. They punch way above their weight in my opinion.
Chris Wilson yes, I gave my last pair of Keilidhs to my uncle. I still have the amplification needed to take a pair active and I’m really tempted to pick up another pair for my dining room. They’re a lot of fun when driven with the right kit.
Steve, a couple of three things in response. 1. We’ve been told that the consumer is looking for simpler solutions than to have racks of separates, hence better manufacturers like KEF getting into wireless and active speakers now. 2. Some manufacturers have been telling us when they do disclose, that it would be better for them if they produced the electronics that drive their speaker designs and that ultimately would be a way to control what the consumer ends up hearing. 3. It would be helpful if passive speaker manufacturers would go out on a limb and tell us what amplifiers they like with their speakers. I have had that experience exactly once where a speaker company suggested an electronics company without prodding that they thought sounded best with their speakers.
Sounds best to who, you or them.
Oh and how about room acoustics, with active speaker's you have dsp.
For home use I prefer class A or AB for home use but I also like an amplifier for each speaker and DSP for crossover and correcting speaker response. Better sound may result by using class D amps and DSP because most people do not have the equipment or experience to setup the DSP.
Obviously this is a pretty hot topic. I recently purchased the KEF LS50 wireless. I believe their sound is impressive. I am planning on running them with a Rega P3, a Bluesound Node2i, a Rotel CD player and a whole lot of Schiit to round things off. This is not my only wireless system. I also run a Sonos system for TV surround. I am building a Creamery to make cheese and butter and I have the place set up with Sonos speakers. It’s convenient! I like music while I work and this facilitated that. For now the system built around the Kefs will stay in our “listening/entertainment” room because we are also remodeling a 1880’s farmhouse but as soon as my office/wife’s studio gets remodeled the system will move there and we plan on building a conventional system based around Klipsch speakers and even more Schiit. A lot more Schiit. So anyway, I am not trying to explain myself or maybe I am but my point is that there is a place for different type systems. Am I an Audiophile? Not likely, not if it means buying things that I honestly cannot hear the incredibly small incremental improvement in numbers at a cost that is absolutely ridiculous. Of course one man’s ridiculous is another man’s pocket change. Either way what is important to me is the music that I can hear. So I think that I will stick with the Merriam-Webster definition of Audiophile and not the Oxford definition. I love the music. The delivery system is secondary!!!!
Agree, I wanted to buy a pair of KEF ls50’s. I was thinking about buying the KEF ls50w. The active version actually sounds better, possibly because the cabinet is a bit larger/deeper, and because of the dsp. But then I thought, what if the internal amps break down? And these things are outdated already. They don’t comply with the new wifi standard, and they can’t communicate with each other wirelessly contrary to the KEF lsx.
I decided to buy the KEF ls50.
Patat Je I agree with most of your points but I actually prefer the sound of the passive but I needed to add much more expensive electronics to beat the sound of the wireless version of the LS50
About the KEF LS 50 vs LS 50 W, my hifi salesman has tried to match the soundquality of the actives with a seperates and had to use amps that cost up to 10.000€ to be as good, so soundquality /cost ration, they are a bargain. The guy from Kef at the last audio Show I went said the same thing..
@@djclass005 is that really true? Are 10000 euro/dollar amplifiers really that much better than a 1000 euro/dollar amplifier?
I wanted to buy a car, but I was worried it would break down. Got some roller skates instead. ;-)
@@patatje6974 I just talk about this specific case (that shop in Brussels, Belgium), driving passive LS 50's and trying to make them sound as good as the LS50W.. The thing is in actives the Amp is matched to the driver, with the passives you have to do that match, and It's hard to get absolutly right. I don't have experience with 10.000 amps, that's way out of my reach..:-)
I've very happy with my Kii (pronounced KEY) Three speakers. And yep, they're class D--and use SMPS... but I've heard rumors that Bruno Putzeys is a pretty "okay" amp designer. I have no doubt that they will be outdated SOMEDAY... but they sound great today, they are easy to set up, take up very little space, are remarkably room agnostic and I'm not certain I can do better, for the money, in today's marketplace. In a decade, I'll buy another pair of speakers and I'm quite okay with that. (BTW, I did have to send them in for servicing (on the SMPSs, not the amps), and that did suck... so I agree with one (but, really, only one) of your problems with actives.
we bought an active sub that controls two passive speakers!
the amplifier in this sub was much too light, and then there was also terrible sound from the entire installation!
a good friend of ours builds amplifiers and is just like you in the business, he connected his personal amplifier to these passive speakers and that made a world of difference!
so we brought this installation back and bought a good ab class amplifier and bigger 12 inch passive speakers.
Now the sound is much better, a pity that there is not much choice in amplifiers, almost all top models are not available in Europe!
Steve, you fail to point out that many if not most active speakers have the amplifier OUTSIDE the box, on a plate. But further to to this topic, ATC makes some of the best speakers I have ever heard in > 30 years of audio experience with passive speakers from Sonus Fabers to Apogees, ATCs and Magneplanar Tympanis. Well at one audio show in NYC, an ATC employee spent at least 20 minutes telling me why ACTIVE speakers were ALWAYS better. (I asked him why ATC even bothered to make passive speakers, but he avoided the question....) Aside from audiophile neurosis and the love of tinkering, I would agree with you in that the amplifier in any active speaker is made to a price point based on the economics of that active speaker and its application and market. And therefore, why would that package be any better than say, Pass Lab monoblocks / Krell Class A / Audio Note Ongakus etc, if connected to the same pair of passive speakers?? PS If I were more cynical, I would say your market and your bread and butter is tweaky, geeked out, high end boutique consumer gear reviewed by the likes of 6 moons audio staffers taking psychedelics and thus your argument in this video. But its an interesting question!
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Dynaudio Excite X14A. Have you heard this speaker Steve? Yes, there is always a better speaker, but for a monitor it is a very good speaker.
Vinyl Rules I have these and they sound wonderful.
High end active B&O are some of most hair raising setups I’ve ever heard.
Good that B&O are getting a bit of a mention; I own a pair - never happier to be honest - yet most audiophiles believe the myths about 'lifestyle' systems because they also look good, and dismiss them as the seriously engineered speakers that they are. Which is a pity.
@@Pisceanboi . I Agree, [A9 owner]
@@Pisceanboi b&c or u really meant b&o if b&c yes I agree I own some Fbt products amazing
@@mrproblemchild88able No, I did mean B&O. Do some reading up on the company and their R&D into loudspeakers and acoustics.
I'm super happy with my Dynaudio monitors, each speaker is internally bi-amped. I have to believe that Dynaudio cares about the sound signature and quality overall - and as a user, you can't mess it up by using the wrong amp or the wrong cables. That has to count for something. I've had passive Dynaudios of similar size before and they distorted MUCH more at the same SPL, using a pretty nice amp and good cables. The monitors sound twice as good and are twice as easy to set up.
JBL had an option of an amp that mounted in the back of many of their speakers in the 60's. They called it "energizer". I'm not sure what class it was. It was a transistor amp. Does this video mean to tell us class d amps are not audiophile quality?
I believed for many years in amp+speakers system. I have owned many different speakers connected to different amps before listening and buying Meridian DSP6000 speakers. Ok, Meridian DSP speakers are not cheap, but the sound coming from these active speakers is amazing. Sorry Steve, I love my active speakers!!!
When you see the cost of 'good' speaker cables, you know straight away that active speakers are the way to go. Also, listen to Genelec monitors and you will see that Steve isn't really correct here.
Steve, have you even tested/listened to speakers like the Kef ls50 wireless?
Passive speakers contain passive crossovers and usually present very complex load impedance to the amplifier this can result in some passive speakers being very hard to drive, an extreme example being the Infinity Kappa 9 speakers where the impedance drops to 0.7 of an ohm at some frequencies. In this particular case almost no "normal" amplifier can drive these speakers. Active speakers usually have one amplifier channel per driver (or maybe more drivers if more than one is covering the same frequency area) and therefore the load seen by each amplifier channel is relatively un-challenging for the amplifier channel. You simply don't need exotic amplifiers to drive most active speaker boxes. If the Infinity Kappa 9 had its passive crossover ripped out and replaced by an active system it would be a piece of cake to drive. How active electronics are built and cooled can vary a lot, if using class A/B then decent rear panel heat sinks are required but this really presents no problem to a decent speaker designer. As to the speaker components getting dated, nope, why should they ? If the system is controlled by an analogue crossover then there is nothing to get dated. If the system is controlled by DSP then this can be where the fun really starts if the designer allows the user to get into the DSP weeds. There are absolutely amazing ways to get into details with DSP, especially with things like serious dipole speakers where there is a lot to experiment with. My prediction is that powered speakers with accessible DSP is really where it will go in the high end eventually. (PS: I dont know why the text turned red, I must have hit a function that I cant undo).
I have the Focal Solo 6 be(s); upgraded the fuses and power cords and use ISOaccoustics; FANTASTIC sound!
Talking rubbish. High end actives can be amazing, ATC, Meridian etc, I’ve used actives for years far superior to passive imho.
You know the Active Speaker Alliance has always said nice things about you Steve!
Steve is all washed up.
Am a dealer of FBT Spkrs here in Tanzania, I wonder how FBT powered spkrs works! Its working very good tone! And very powerful range and no any complains from my customers after to sale for them powered Spkr! FBT MITUS 215A,FBT MUSE 210LA, FBT MITUS 115A.Are very happy with it!!! But some how he is right in his say.
Well powered Studio monitors are built to be linear. As an Audiophile that uses Active studio monitors as my choice of gear. My theory on this is the person who mixed the cd used the same type of speaker to mix the recording and tried to get the closest reproduction on what the microphone picked up due to the Studio monitors Linear response. Even look at the Definition of an Audiophile "Audiophile:is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction. An audiophile seeks to reproduce the sound of a live musical performance, typically in a room with good acoustics." So you can't really Say this speaker is audiophile speaker and this one is not due to the type of gear or the money you spend. Its a lifestyle
No problems whatsoever with my Genelecs. Beats most of so called audiophile speakers.. Never had one problem over 20 years of use.
“so called audiophile speakers”!?! What does that mean? That, in fact, there’s no such thing as audiophile speakers? If that’s what you’re trying to say, you’re mistaken.
Only in your pipe dream.
Don’t need to get upset. What I mean is that active speakers can be great speakers. Genelecs among others are used in top mastering and mixing studios around the world. They are built like a tank - no issues
ADS 2002. Where you been, Steve?
I have a 6 chanel DIY monoblock class ab and full active 3 way with Behringer Active Loudspesker management system. What a superb sounding system. Now next project 8 chhanel Monoblock and 5.1 and 4 way stereo. I had heard the Kii three loved but has less power my system beats that and with way much power. Full project done in 4K $. More configurable open power headroom way more than Kii. Every room is different Active crossover is the best approach. I come from India
ATC has been making active speakers for both professional & domestic market for donkey years and they seem fine. They just have amp inside and no dac etc though so no issue re: dac technology becoming obsolete.
So all the people who make, produce and engineer music on active monitors are doing it wrong? 🤔
B B No I didn’t say that. But audiophiles have never really embraced studio monitor sound. That’s a fact. Active or passive studios never really became a mainstay for audiophiles
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac Don't forget that the best audio engineers don't embrace studio monitor sound either. You rarely see a mixing studio with fewer than four sets of monitors. Every speaker has its weaknesses and strengths. I think that much of the audiophile negativity towards studio monitors is the wife approval factor. It is far easier to sell your wife on a Tidal Diacera Contriva with some Pass Lab electronics than on an ATC SCM50asl.
@@BrianNavalinsky Ain't that the truth?
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac But that's still not a good argument, IMO. You didn't even begin to bring up the considerable advantages active designs can have, but instead seemed to suggest that the same performance can be achieved either way. That's what I don't understand about "audiophiles". If you're truly looking for the best sound quality possible, doesn't it make sense to take the technically superior approach? There are so many disadvantages to passive loudspeakers that actives can overcome. Or is this just all about "tradition" and the "way it's always been done"?
@@johnstone7697 is it audiophile or audiofool that's the question.
A great guy comparing all the worst options possible and implying all actives are poor. Try Sanders Sound active electrostatics with transmission line bass: great resolution, superb bass and voltage regulated amps that can drive a train. Or, PMC actives. Not crappy actives with crappy amps sitting inside the shaking enclosure. Passive systems = a power/control damping crossover sitting between however great an amp and the driver - can an electroacoustic engineer come-up with anything more ridiculous to hamper the final stage in audio playback?
NGL
My long time ago dream active system which never finalized was Bang Olufsen PENTA. Heard them on occasions and I was happy was there . They were about 10 000USD at the time. Not more because actually after 35 years they are only for refurbishing. But B&O do new ones - price 35 000-40 000 USD. Sorry for talking about money but I do not know them much more . Available in leasing :).. I think Steve wasn't talking also about them.
@@Mikexception I've seen them sell for under $800 nowadays.
Early 1990s I bought a pair of Meridian M2 active stand mounts, sold them to a friend around 20 years back - they're still going strong.
I recall lusting after the Meridian M100 model.
Steve, with the improvements made over the last few years. Have your opinions changed? Kef's passive LS50 you spoke about is now a powered speaker and well as many others such as Acoustic Energy, Klipsch, B&W to name a few.