SUBSCRIBE! If you REALLY enjoy these videos, please consider supporting on Patreon! / nicksibicky COMPLETE NICK SIBICKY GO LECTURE PLAYLIST: • Nick Sibicky Go Lectur...
What i love about go seigen is that instead of saying I know thats safe as soon as hes threatened and letting his opponent build thickness attacking him, he waits until his opponent spends another move to say its dead. Then once everyone else is sure its dead he just asks 15 times if your sure its dead and trades 10 points for a massive wall and kills something bigger.
This kind of game is why Go Seigen is still considered one of the greatest masters and strongest players of all times. Think about this -- in his entire prime, Go Seigen was giving 1-2 stone handicaps in every game to his 8-9P opponents and still winning. In this jubango, Go Seigen won 6-1 against the only other 9P in history to that point. Fujisawa Hosai was so humiliated in game 7 that he resigned from the Japanese Pro league and didn't play seriously for the next several years. This game shown in this video is typical of just how far ahead of his contemporaries Go Seigen was in the late 40's through the 1950's. His Opponent's Elo scores varied from 8P's at 2900 to 9P's at 3300 rating (still good enough for top 100 in the world today). Fujisawa Hosai and F.Shuuko were 2 of the players rated at 3250-3350 ELO score by Goratings and historical databases the Seigen DOMINATED. He would regularly beat them, and Sakata Eio by 7-2-1, and 6-3-1 in Jubangos and in important matches. a 70-80% win rate is a difference of nearly 2 stones in professional play. And, in professional play 200-250pts are assigned to each stone of difference between top players. Thus, we can estimate Go Seigen's Elo rating in his prime (before the motorcycle accident) was at 3500-3600 based on his dominance of these other 9P's by that win rate. What this means is that Go Seigen would still be a top 5-10 player today with no gain in knowledge -- just on what he knew and his raw reading ability. That's beyond prolific, That's LEGENDARY. Ke Jie , and 3 others only recently -- after alphago -- cracked the 3600 barrier. I think it's possible that without internet, tons of games per day, and all the knowledge of joseki that have improved in the last 60+ years, that A prime Go Seigen might actually win domestic titles in China or Korea Today as he was THEN. I would give him the edge as white every time -- because he was used to playing from way behind in no kome era.
Fujisawa Hosai is actually really interesting, he was the highest ranked Go player in the Japan until Go Seigen showed up and basically beat him, Fujisawa became so obsessed with defeating Go Seigen, that he neglected all his other responsibilities, eventually retiring in 1953 after losing to Go Seigen as Nick said, about 6 years later in 1959, he made a return and won a few titles, retiring for good in 1993. Fujisawa Hosai actually has a lot of relatives to become elite Go players, his uncle Fujisawa Hideyuki won multiple titles, and he has a younger relative named Fujisawa Rina who's currently playing today, becoming a pro when she was in highschool and has had success.
19:00 My intuition was K3, aiming at something like Go Seigen's move next to settle. I think this position really shows Go Seigen's similarity to AlphaGo -- rather than run out, just take territory and force your opponent to make the game more complicated by trying to punish your move. Also, he seems to think that for the strength of a group, eye shape matters more than having lots of liberties, which is what ultimately makes early 3-3 invasions acceptable.
Oh that's not what I meant :) Actually the game fascinated me first time when I was young. I learned the rules then did nothing else with it because I was spending a lot of time studying chess. I don't even know how to count properly. lol
@9:24 I thought 3x3 invasion then realized there is no way a pre-ai player would do that. @32:33 I thought sarcastically that since go seigen just made an empty triangle he must be loosing
47:20 - This is definitely my small 20-kyu brain talking, but how is that not a problem for black? If white then plays M11, how does black defend? He can't play M12, because then he gets cut off. And I don't see how he can atari something to live...
@@LinoWalker That connects the 5 stones to the 1 stone, but not to the group on the right side which is the only place where there's room to make eyes.
What i love about go seigen is that instead of saying I know thats safe as soon as hes threatened and letting his opponent build thickness attacking him, he waits until his opponent spends another move to say its dead. Then once everyone else is sure its dead he just asks 15 times if your sure its dead and trades 10 points for a massive wall and kills something bigger.
MORE GO SEIGEN PLZ
Nick I love your videos! they have really helped me understand and get better at go, and have really inspired me to play more.
Keep on posting videos!
This kind of game is why Go Seigen is still considered one of the greatest masters and strongest players of all times.
Think about this -- in his entire prime, Go Seigen was giving 1-2 stone handicaps in every game to his 8-9P opponents and still winning. In this jubango, Go Seigen won 6-1 against the only other 9P in history to that point. Fujisawa Hosai was so humiliated in game 7 that he resigned from the Japanese Pro league and didn't play seriously for the next several years.
This game shown in this video is typical of just how far ahead of his contemporaries Go Seigen was in the late 40's through the 1950's. His Opponent's Elo scores varied from 8P's at 2900 to 9P's at 3300 rating (still good enough for top 100 in the world today).
Fujisawa Hosai and F.Shuuko were 2 of the players rated at 3250-3350 ELO score by Goratings and historical databases the Seigen DOMINATED.
He would regularly beat them, and Sakata Eio by 7-2-1, and 6-3-1 in Jubangos and in important matches.
a 70-80% win rate is a difference of nearly 2 stones in professional play. And, in professional play 200-250pts are assigned to each stone of difference between top players.
Thus, we can estimate Go Seigen's Elo rating in his prime (before the motorcycle accident) was at 3500-3600 based on his dominance of these other 9P's by that win rate.
What this means is that Go Seigen would still be a top 5-10 player today with no gain in knowledge -- just on what he knew and his raw reading ability. That's beyond prolific, That's LEGENDARY.
Ke Jie , and 3 others only recently -- after alphago -- cracked the 3600 barrier. I think it's possible that without internet, tons of games per day, and all the knowledge of joseki that have improved in the last 60+ years, that A prime Go Seigen might actually win domestic titles in China or Korea Today as he was THEN. I would give him the edge as white every time -- because he was used to playing from way behind in no kome era.
Fujisawa Hosai is actually really interesting, he was the highest ranked Go player in the Japan until Go Seigen showed up and basically beat him, Fujisawa became so obsessed with defeating Go Seigen, that he neglected all his other responsibilities, eventually retiring in 1953 after losing to Go Seigen as Nick said, about 6 years later in 1959, he made a return and won a few titles, retiring for good in 1993. Fujisawa Hosai actually has a lot of relatives to become elite Go players, his uncle Fujisawa Hideyuki won multiple titles, and he has a younger relative named Fujisawa Rina who's currently playing today, becoming a pro when she was in highschool and has had success.
Another great lecture, very informative and entertaining.
19:00 My intuition was K3, aiming at something like Go Seigen's move next to settle. I think this position really shows Go Seigen's similarity to AlphaGo -- rather than run out, just take territory and force your opponent to make the game more complicated by trying to punish your move. Also, he seems to think that for the strength of a group, eye shape matters more than having lots of liberties, which is what ultimately makes early 3-3 invasions acceptable.
It blows me away that so many arts and entertainment people are into a game like Go.
I just can't wrap my head around it.
Dan Kelly very few games are as competitive and skillfull like go, its realy fun to learn
Oh that's not what I meant :) Actually the game fascinated me first time when I was young. I learned the rules then did nothing else with it because I was spending a lot of time studying chess. I don't even know how to count properly. lol
That young woman in the background is like an echo of my brain while watching this video... "... peep?" then she immediately says "... peep?" :)
Tired of itchy, flaky dry Go Seigen? Try our new Moistest Go Seigen!
OMG thanks for this video. ..you are my mentor! Can you (one do more )Cho chi kun please
again*
nick looks cooler than usual in a black shirt
Heard: Go Seigen vs Stephen Fry
What happened to the two sided stones
We thought that the single-sided ones actually showed up better on camera.
@9:24 I thought 3x3 invasion then realized there is no way a pre-ai player would do that.
@32:33 I thought sarcastically that since go seigen just made an empty triangle he must be loosing
Please do the "16 soldiers" game :D i think that is the mostest of the mostest Go Seigen ^^
Note: This game was played on 1933-10-10 in the Oteai, between Kosugi Tei (Black) and Go Seigen.
Yes please
by "this year" do you mean 2016 or 2017?
hopefully 2017!
I meant 2016.
oh no!
44:30 this is no eye, W can move T8
14:35
Unfortunately, Nick Sibicky doesn't recommend move 22:
A provocative move! Interesting,
AI katago recommends play this move right away!
C 7 is the move AI doesn't recomment whatsoever
Although there is deep reading involved with that move, kids!
@ 5:40-6:00 approximately.....WTF?
47:20 - This is definitely my small 20-kyu brain talking, but how is that not a problem for black? If white then plays M11, how does black defend? He can't play M12, because then he gets cut off. And I don't see how he can atari something to live...
(Coming from a fellow noob) I believe the argument is black takes O11 and disconnects white, eats the 6 stones in bottom middle and lives trivially.
@@stevehaas496 But doesn't white just connect at P10 then?
@@LinoWalker That connects the 5 stones to the 1 stone, but not to the group on the right side which is the only place where there's room to make eyes.
@@stevehaas496 Ahhh, I see now! Thank you for clarifying :)
Good lecture. The person shaking stones off camera was less good.
I think they were just replaying the moves on a board
This really annoyed me as well.
Did the other black group die? and what about that white group on the right, is that alive?