How Could Gandalf Have Survived Moria, and How Might That Have Changed the Lord of the Rings?
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2023
- Before entering Moria, Aragorn tells Gandalf to “beware,” and later regrets that his premonition was accurate, which seems to suggest that the outcome of Gandalf dying was inevitable. But was it? Might Gandalf have survived Moria? How would that have altered the course of the rest of the story?
For my video on Gandalf’s plan to get into Mordor, click here: • How Did Gandalf Plan t...
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It's always crazy to me how every little thing that occurs in LotR is ultimately crucial. Change even one relatively little element, and the entire narrative tumbles down almost entirely!
Tolkien said that Old Gandalf could have dealt with neither Theoden nor Saruman if he wasnt incarnated. So he needed to be upgraded. Another example would be that Gandalf the Grey needed hours to only "hold back" Ringwraiths whilst as a White he could force them to retreat with a single motion of his hand. This ringwaiths were also superior to their former selves when they fought with the Grey. His power increase was significant
Comment for the Algorithm Gods! Also glad your back!
What about his back?
your videos are great.. glad to see a fresh one
Without Gandalf delaying by reading the book, the Company would've been trapped by the fire set up by the orcs in the Durin's Bridge chamber (since they wouldn't have been forced to take a detour). Also, and most importantly, if Gandalf hadn't fallen at the bridge, the Enemy would have a Balrog with an orc army to pinzer attack Lorien and/or Rohan.
The orc army was there regardless. As for the Balrog, we have no reason to think it would have left Moria. We also don’t know the fire would have been there if they had come sooner
Exact.he bought them time,plus Balrog.
There is a part of the Bible that raises a similar question - in the Book of Acts Paul is repeatedly warned that he will be imprisoned if he goes to Jerusalem, but he decides to go anyways. I hadn't thought about it before but the best interpretation I can come up with is that God was not trying to stop him but prepare him, or perhaps to "test" him, that is to show to Paul what he is willing to do for the sake of the gospel. A similar interpretation is possible for Gandalf's story here.
Good point!
Excellent take!👍😁
I really liked this take that Gandalf had a set path, but messed up, and had to be reborn because of his role. Not that it was destined that he'd die to return with more power. It separates Gandalf from the Christ like analogy too. Could it be that it wasn't really Aragorn that warned Gandalf, but Eru Iluvatar speaking through him?
Glad to have you back, bro. Had heart attack 3 weeks ago and your stuff helped get me through the hospital stay!
Wow! I hope you’re doing well now!
@@TolkienLorePodcast Got a stint and doing great! Thanks!
A stint is a life saver. I just got one a month ago. Recovery was actually relatively painless, just one boring day in the hospital for observation. Then blood thinners for a year.😞. Hang in there!
I've given a lot of thought to what if my favorite character doesn't die over the years. I've never postulated a satisfying answer to the question.
Nice. Glad to see ya back.
Please never stop doing videos. You are my favorite Tolkien CZcamsr. Great video.
Ah, the best Tolkien way to start the week!
So glad you are back!
I think that Gandalf did need to be "upgraded" to the White to handle everything he would need to handle for the successful completion of his task. Eru would have intervened at some point although the exact circumstances are largely impossible to predict.
Great point! The story needs Gandalf the White.
Another great, insightful video! Always love hearing about your takes on lesser-known topics like this. You have a critical eye for detail, as always.
Love your content your my favorite Tolkien lore insights. Your obviously a smart person to break down a world with such a eye for detail
Wow! This was such an intricate concept to try to decipher. Very impressive breakdown.
Was listening to the audiobook today at the point Gandalf reunites with the three hunters and tells them what happened. It occurred to me that (not identical) it’s situationally similar to Frodo and Sam climbing up the Winding Stair and facing Shelob.
It’s as if Frodo is akin to Gandalf; having to ignore all of Sam’s warnings, going from the depths by Minas Morgul, following Gollum up the Winding Stair (then a little bit where Sam steps in and actually does the smoting) before being ‘reborn’ (recovering from the poison at least) naked at the top of the tower of Cirith Ungol.
I rather think Gandalf's death was almost essential, because Eru had to send him back in leveled up the White form to replace Saruman.
Wow, seems that you are back for good, are you? Great!
Yep, barring unforeseen circumstances.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
I really appreciate all your videos, even though I have been a pain in your butt on occasions. Sorry. I will behave going forward.
I think Gandalf had to die to “replace” Saruman….maybe if he hadn’t turned evil things might have worked out differently, but since the fall of Saruman, Eru had to change his plan making Gandalf sacrificing himself so he could bring him back as The White and complete his new task
I love the idea of Eru having to adjust the plan, meaning he is not omniscience and can't se every possibility in advance. "Saruman was destined to turn to evil and Gandalf was destined to die in battle with the Balrog" feels so flat, but for Eru to look at what's happening and say, "Saruman has failed his mission, but Gandalf did more than I'd ever expected. He must be sent back to do what Saruman should have."
Eru is one of my *least* favorite parts of the Legendarium, so I like the interpretation that this isn't just a giant Rube Goldberg machine he set up. If even he can't precisely foresee everything that will come to pass, that gives a lot more agency to the characters as we cheer them on through their adventure. (though I much prefer the adjustment being Eru bringing Gandalf back and maybe giving them a nudge in the right direction, than ordaining his death to fill a new role).
Eru DOES know everything. He is omniscient. Gandalf often uses the expression that something was "meant to be." This is Eru's will/plan.
@@Nerd_Detective Well, for one thing, in this specific instance, the Istari were originally the Valar's plan. For another and more important, God does know everything beforehand, but that doesn't forbid Him in the least to resort to a "plan B" when "plan A" includes the free decision of creature X (who after all has free-will because she is created as a creature with free-will) and creature X decides not according to plan. Other than with men, God's "plans-B" tend to be *more* wonderful, not less; o felix culpa quae talem ac tantum meruit habere Redemptorem...
That was, of course, real-world theology, but what Tolkien did with Eru *was* , after all, the fascinating and rather bold step of giving the God-place within his legendarium to God Himself (with just the one stipulation that he would *have* created that particular universe when in fact, as far as we know, He hasn't)...
Never thought of it that way, good point
Without Merry and Pippin, Saruman would have been toppled later, too late for Rohan.
I guess Merry and Pippin lose half a foot of height. Oh, well....
I always took 'I understand' to mean that Gandalf realized who was driving the orcs and who was at the Chamber Door.
I know I am late, but I thought your channel was going away for good, so, welcome back! One quibble I have with your video is: Do we know it was Eru who sent Gandalf back? I always assumed he was sent back by the Valar. It seems to me that Eru stopped getting involved in the affairs of ME after the downfall of Numenor, after that there was no more the Valar could not handle. Sort of parralleling Gandalf's own assertion that once the Ring was destroyed, those in ME can take care of the affairs in ME without interference from the Valar/Maiar. Now, why do I believe the Valar sent him back and not Eru? Because unlike the Elves who rebelled, I don't believe that any of the Maiar who remain true and end up dying, have to stay in Mandos. Perhaps Saruman does need to remain in Mandos for a while, but I don't believe Gandalf had that restriction and therefore he was allowed to come back immediately. Just my own opinion as a Tolkein fan.
Eru doing it is Corey Olsen’s theory, and I suspect he’s probably right, but both are definitely possible.
"I strayed out of thought and time". The Valar are within time, so it has to be Eru Himself. (And Tolkien says as much in Letter 156, as a quick Internet research tells me.)
An interesting question. My take on it goes along the same lines of what I think is the direction your going, but more exaggerated. So. Gandalf's death was not in Gandalf's plan; but it was very much in Eru Illuvatar's plan. Aragorn's saying need mean no more than "I have had a foresight that something bad, possibly death, might happen to you, you specifically, if we go to Moria, so, please be careful". Obviously Aragorn is not going to say "but your sacrifice will bring us victory, so, let's go ahead"; probably not even *if* his foresight goes so far, Gandalf is a friend after all.
Was Gandalf staying to read the book instead of urging on a mistake? Probably (though I would not say "a sin"). But not, I think, one that made Providence say "oh, but you are needed for the victory; let's somehow repair what you rather stupidly did, and then proceed to victory". Rather, it was "great! This, judged on its own merits, was a mistake; but it also is the chance for you to commit the selfsacrifice that will actually lead to victory".
What would have happened?
1. I agree they might have escaped the Orcs. That also means that what in my headcanon is the belated final battle of the First Age (it's not quite clear he is really the last one, but certainly Durin's bane is one of *very* few balrogs yet undestroyed) is not going to happen, so even if Sauron is not defeated there is still a Balrog roaming the Earth.
2. Merry and Pippin will insist on accompanying Frodo, led by Gandalf, so, a group of 6 rather than 2, which makes the thing more difficult. (I agree that the Amon Hen battle of minds will not need to take place.)
3. It is true that Treebeard is not as he is in the movie; he is already thinking about attacking Saruman. But a velleity is not a will; the way Ents are they will require someone to push them over the Edge. At the very best, he could also respond to a simple plea from Gandalf, but for one thing even that is a stretch, and for another Gandalf is not there to plea. Treebeard is not mobilizing the Ent army for a mere plea by Aragorn or Theoden, even if they do get the idea to go to him.
4. It is true that in the book, Gandalfs encounter with Theoden is not quite the obvious exorcism it is depicted like in the movie, but still you do get the idea that something requiring wizard power is going.on under the surface. Eomer could help, but Eomer is getting the idea because Orcs trample over the land openly, which they only do because they have prisoners and so do not care about safety, which would not be the case. They would be sent off as disturbers of the peace, and then, at best, Saruman annex an undefended and unsuspecting Rohan. It is possible though that Saruman would not even feel the need to annex, and Theoden simply accept to become a vassal of him and even of Sauron, despite the misgivings about how the latter treats horses.
5. There is no way Aragorn is getting a Palantir. Also, even if Elladan and Elrohir do suggest him to take the paths of the dead, there is no way he would do so without feeling a pressing need. Which is by the way what the prophecy says ("need shall drive him").
6., Thus, the Dead's plight remains unresolved too.
7. Thus, if the war starts Minas Tirith will be overrun by Corsairs and forces from Mordor together, despite any help Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, Elladan, Elrohir, a few loyal Rohirrim under Eomer and the Grey Company can bring. Even if the war does not start, though, the Enemy has Isengard, Rohan, Ithilien and Umbar.
8. Sauron would not strike hastily, nor be driven by fear to go to take a seemingly suicidal bait, which was done on the express purpose of "making him blind to all else that moves" (a movie quote, but an accurate one). And even so, Frodo and Sam were two and it was difficult. In this timeline, Mordor is not blind, and they are six. Will they come through?
9. Even if they do: in the story, they had had to rely on Gollum, so he is there now and can have the accident of destroying the ring. Will any of the six have the strength to throw it in? But then, they presumably did not have to use it as much as Frodo did, so, *maybe* . Also, Gollum could (and would indeed have tried to) follow them still. But still... that becomes more difficult.
10. Even if the ring does get destroyed, there's still a mighty wizard ready to take and reorganize what falls out of the Dark Lord's hands. So, Isengard, Rohan, Ithilien, Umbar, Harad, the Easterlings and all will rather instantly be under Saruman's rule from Orthanc and have to be fought down in the normal military way. (Would Aragorn *then* be able to take the Paths of the Dead? But their oath was to fight against Sauron?)
11. Even if that is victorious, the land will be destroed.
So, with a lot of luck here, a lot of luck there and so forth, you end up with a military victory of the Good Side against Saruman, who turned out (as in a sense he did in the real canon) to be the final foe, after the Ring had been destroyed, and Ithilien and Anorien reduced to a devastation alike to the Brown Lands. On the upside, Lotho S.B. will only do actual industrialization of the Shire, it will be spared Sharkeyan destruction; and Boromir and Denethor survive, and it is at least possible (though not certain) that they also accept the Return of the King.
All of that was averted because Gandalf took an hour or half of it to read a book in a place infested by enemies. A mistake, as we call it in Middle Earth.
There is mention of Gandalf "messing up" and being granted a do over by Eru Illuvatar. However, i have to think this requires somewhat of an admission by Eru that he himself may have "messed up" by originally putting Saruman as head of the Istari instead of Gandalf. Eru had to admit that he bet on the wrong horse. 🤔🤔🤔
Eru didn’t send the Istari, and even the Valar didn’t choose who was their leader.
Gandalf was a great example of faith and having no fear like Gimli who otherwise on the battlefield had no fear at all or perhaps was afraid to know what happened to his kin folks. Also, Gandalf was a Maiya or Angel of EU Illuvatar before he was sent as a messenger to Middle Earth, therefore his earthly incarnation was never meant to be permanent as we see towards the end of the story.
my impression is assuming the quest is still successful, the circumstances in rohan would be worse and possibly require intervention from gondor after sauron is defeated.
A little bit of care and awareness could potentially have made Gandalf survivng the Balrog easy. Just a small jump back, or a lift of a leg could have been enough to have avoided the whip that pulled him after his foe.
If Gandalf had avoided the whip, therefore not chasing and slaying our big bad, i would be interested in what roll the balrog would then play. Would it ally with Sauron, take an active roll on the war? What difference would of having a Balrog to lead any one of the armies launched at any of the free people have made?
Maybe the key point is, IF Gandalf had survived Moria, Tolkien would have faced the very problems you mentioned and had a much worse story to tell. SO Tolkien would have gone back to Khazad dum and rewritten things to come out just as they did. We know LOTR had a lot of false starts and that To,Kiev wrote himself into a corner here and there-let’s just be thankful he got things right ultimately.
Gandalf would never speak to Gwaihir, Galadriel or Celeborn. So Elladan and Elrohir wouldn't have known where to go, meaning they wouldn't have gone.
I wonder what happens if Aragorn dies instead of Gandalf? Theories on how things play out? Who becomes king if the Fellowship is still able to destroy the Ring?
Well there wouldn’t be a king since Aragorn was the last heir lol.
Really? Aragorn was the last King. No Aragorn? Sauron wins.
New video!
If they had kept moving rather than stopping to read the book in the chamber, then wouldn't the party have NOT destroyed the narrow bridge when crossing over the chasm? If so, wouldn't that have meant that many thousand of orcs and trolls would have chased them all the way to the exit doors from Moria by using the bridge to pursue? It's not like they spent two days reading the book, after all. I'm guessing the group, with the orcs not cut off, would have been pursued and caught the group long before they reached Lorien. Would the Fellowship have not been overwhelmed right then and there, and only Gandalf could have survived (I assume that Legalas. Aragorn, and Boromir would not have abandoned the hobbits and dwarf).
It was daylight outside, so the orcs wouldn’t have pursued till nightfall.
I think Joshua was assuming that the Balrogs and Orcs would get to the chamber at the same time, while all the fellowship would have crossed the bridge and exited out into the daylight, where Orcs avoid going.
well, let me add this my friend in terms of power level discrepancy. maybe it's a huge difference, maybe it isn't... what makes the power of the White significant over the Grey was that returning as the White our boy was given special authority that in dire, or rather emergency situations, to act as an angel so to speak and with his power, provide direct intervention in the field. remember, that was something the Istari were strictly forbidden from doing up to this point. they couldn't meet the Dark Lord power for power in a direct confrontation in an attempt to defeat him. though of the Istari, all others having failed, and only Gandalf remaining truly committed to his mission, and Eru resurrecting him because he knew without Gandalf all was lost, and his children doomed... I'd say even if the power is theoretically equal... as the White our boy Olorin has greater power in practice, because as the White... he is essentially unchained. still on his leash, and obedient... but now unrestrained.
though I would imagine there would be significantly greater power. consider Gandalf often used trickery and cunning, and rarely used any legitimate "magic" in his dealings. that said, one of the few instances he brought his power to bare at it's fullest is his... what was it, month long (if I remember right) battle against Durin's Bane. Maia against Maia, neither clad in their original forms... with that thought in mind. I find it unlikely that he was not significantly more powerful with his resurrection. well, not more powerful, but rather more of his natural power being opened to him. his memory of Valinor itself my even have become less foggy (my assumption) just strictly based on his behavior. in many ways he was the same Gandalf, but in others he seemed more enlightened, gentler, and more assured of his place in it all. which makes me feel Eru's intervention let more of the true Olorin sure in Gandalf. which to me, and again, this is just assumption on my part means more power, and a greater recollection of what and where he came from. of course he knew what he was, but if I remember right those memories and that knowledge was made foggy, and shrouded as the were sent to Middle Earth. as the Grey he always seemed more worldly, more like a man and of the Earth. as if Gandalf was what Olorin would have been if he had been born to the world of men, but as the White, it's obvious his divinity is deeper, greater...and he seems to me more like Olorin, if he was an angel pretending to be. a man...which granted that is exactly what he always was, but as the White he seems to be just his truest and greatest self, wearing the skin of a man like a cloak...where as the Grey he seemed to almost belong to this world, the world of man.
Did the warning Gandalf received derive from Elrond's intuition or from Elrond's knowledge (lore, really) of the Balrog's existence? I don't have my copy of TLotR with me right know and can't check it. I think there are other examples of this kind of intuition (or premonition) among elves. There are other examples of this kind of intuition (premonition) among elves, if I'm not mistaken (and this raises another question: is this premonitory ability a gift of High Elves, or of elves in general?).
It wasn’t Elrond, it was Aragorn. I’m sure none of them knew anything of the Balrog.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
Maybe you can do a "Premonitions-within-the-Lore video.". 👍🙏 Maybe you have already done one and I missed it.😞
How did Gollum get out of Moria once the bridge was destroyed?
I suspect he crossed first.
It reminds me, why did Gandalf insist to go through Moria?
@@Drabkikker Moria was in fact Gandalf’s plan A. He argues to go through it before Aragorn insists to try the pass over Caradhras. Frodo saw they talking about it, and it was Aragorn who asked Gandalf not to say anything to the others about going through Moria before they had first tried the Mountain pass.
Olsen is a known opportunist and lickspittle, one should scrutinize everything coming from him. When his podcast reached a the Silmarillion fantasy movie, I was out.
I’m curious, how long has this been “known?” 🤔
@@TolkienLorePodcast Since his infamous Rings of Power interview.
But as I said, when his Podcast was discussing a fantasy Silmarillion adaptation, where they were going against Tolkiens views to include “modern audiences”, I was so annoyed, that I could not listen to hos pod anymore.
@BanjoSick can you give me an example of what you’re talking about from the Silm Film series?
@@TolkienLorePodcast after Olsons view, Yavanna should be portrayed as a african, stocky build, fertility goddess.
@BanjoSick and that contradicts Tolkien how? There’s virtually no physical description of any of the Valar and they can all change their appearance at will. The current cultural background of a moviegoing audience would certainly get the connection with that sort of depiction, which is part of the goal of a visual adaptation.
What kind of music do you like Tolkien Geek?
I’m kind of eclectic but the core of what I like is singer songwriters from the ‘70s and ‘80s.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
British or North American?
@enerdhilHouseoftheGoldenFlower North American primarily
He did survive Moria. He died in the battle outside
Ok captain nitpick 🤣
Interesting. So you don't think the Dwarves built the Endless Stairs or whatever structure was outside, on top of the mountain? If Moria is the whole realm, wouldn't that be included? Just wondering what you think...
Could Gandalf the Grey keep up with the Three Hunters?😂🤣😅
Probably. We know he’s more physically capable than he seems.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
I agree. But when running at his own pace, he is not as fast as he is when riding Shadowfax.😉
The real hero is a fool of a Took.